Why STRATEGY Stands Alone & Why Most Bitcoin Treasury Companies Cannot Last

Welcome back to the Bitcoin Layer. I'm Nick Batia. Today we're joined by Yokim Book. He is a fantastic Bitcoin analyst and notably the editor of my second book, Bitcoin Age. Yokim, great to have you on the show.

Thanks, Nick. It's wonderful to be here. Um, I've been a fan and a reader of the Bitcoin layer for a long time. So, it's pretty cool to be here and actually contribute to the content.

Of course. Well, we wanted to have you on because Bitcoin Treasury companies have been all the rage this year in 2025, but not just the companies themselves, the stories around these companies and how they are affecting the Bitcoin environment, the industry, and the investment landscape. So let's start with earlier this year what you were warning people about when it came to the MicroStrategy copycats.

Yeah. So uh what I was mostly concerned with to start with this is a little bit of a fad that happened in 2025. But the weird thing here is that you're trading securities on Bitcoin which is kind of perverse in to begin with. Like what was Satoshi trying to do? He was trying to exit us from the financial system. He didn't want second layer uh money. He wanted actual outside money that we could send peer-to-peer. And then we 15 years later, his descendants, his uh uh looking up to him, we turn around and securitize uh the hell out of his things really. Uh so I I was a little bit skeptical about that, but it's been a fad this year and it's it's hard to sort of uh make sense of it, but and who to blame. I'm not I'm not really too interested in blaming somebody. I can't really fault a lot of these companies for doing what they did because if you start trading uh a piece of paper to a dollar for more than a dollar, you're going to get it. Hundreds and hundreds of people selling more of those papers. You're going to print all you can. Um and this is one of the quotes that I used in in some of my writing from from David Bailey. It's like if you can sell a dollar for more than a dollar, you do that trade all day long. Uh there's nothing weird about that. So I I'm not surprised that this happened. uh and that we now have, you know, 200 plus companies financial engineering, selling issues, issuing stock, issuing securities, uh trying to to financialize Bitcoin as much as it possibly can. I am kind of surprised at how it happened in the first place. Like why did Wall Street, you know, hit its head and decided that yeah, I'm going to trade these things two, three, five, 10 times MNAV. Um yeah, that that that makes no sense to me. Uh but following this entire trajectory over the year, that's been fantastic. And I was skeptical to begin with, primarily because it doesn't fit with Satoshi's vision, and secondarily because it doesn't fit with financial logic, like you can't just trade things for more than they're worth for very long. And I I didn't make as much money as as Jim Chenas did in his trade. I made almost nothing. Um, and but but yeah, I was sort of directionally correct in that call and like, yeah, this is not going to work. But then like most of my friends in the in in in the treasury space, they tell me, hey, chill out. Like Bitcoin is a four-year process, five-year process. Nobody expects to profit off a Bitcoin investment next week. This is a 10 or 15 year process. Why would you expect to profit off the treasury companies that quickly? I have some sympathy for that argument. Uh but yeah, like we'll we'll live to see like call me in 15 years and we'll see.

Absolutely. Well, you know, the the investment time horizon for Bitcoin being four, 5, 10, 15 years, no one's going to argue with that. However, the financial markets can punish securities to the point where they disappear, they die, they go away, they default. So there while the investment thesis being 5 to 15 years is not incorrect applying that to financial securities leverage debt and maturities doesn't always uh it doesn't always coincide there. So explain to the viewer and listener really quickly the concept of MNAV and how you've used that in your analysis this year.

So the easiest way to understand MNAB is just trading a piece of paper that stand in for Bitcoin at more than one, right? So it's it's essentially the book value of a the market cap of a company compared to the to the value of the Bitcoin that they hold. So let's say that you hold $100 worth of Bitcoin and all of your outstanding shares are trading at 110. Your entire company is worth 110. You have an MNAB of 1.1, right? like you have a 10% premium on top of the the only asset that you have. Now that gets muddied because a lot of these companies have other assets as well, operating businesses. Um, and then as well because they have convertible debt and they have some debt on the side. So you should actually compare it to the enterprise value. It gets a little tricky and and into the corporate finance weeds and things, but that's roughly the idea that you have an asset which is Bitcoin and has a market price that we can all observe and then it's trading your your shares the sum total of your company is trading and we know how many bitcoin you have and that company's trading at a higher value than than those bitcoin basically and that's where all the magic happened. That's why what what why this was a fantastic trade in the summer because all these companies traded at two, three, four, five, right? So you can issue shares to willing shareholders that buy them and you can turn around and buy Bitcoin and it's instantly accretive to your company. So this is why we got this in the first place. Uh we got hund hundreds of these companies because you know you just harvesting that MNAB for for all that it's worth. But now we're in an interesting point because all of these companies more or less have come down to around one or below one. Uh I think even 21 went below one today. Um so so yeah, now we're we're in an interesting normal world where you know $1 bit Bitcoin trades for $1 in the financial markets and we'll see how long these treasury companies can continue to exist, how long they can continue to um to justify their existence and justify their um their operations. And some of them might, some most of them I think won't. And then and it's always an easy like now that they're trading below MNAB, you get the opposite effect, which is it's always tempting for these companies to just sell all the Bitcoin, return money to shareholders, and close up shop. And I think we're going to see a lot of that.

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Now, let's talk about the big dog first that people get a little bit of context. Micro Strategy. Now Strategy is the largest corporate holder of Bitcoin by several miles. Uh they have started to issue several public securities outside of MSTR which is the common equity. They have preferred and they have structured fixed income type of investments. But talk about the MNAV and if you want to adjust the MNAV for for debt, give us the whatever ratio that you that you find is u the highest signal there. Talk about strategy and where their MNAV has been over the course of the last 12 months and then up until when the copycat started to join the ring.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, Strategy is a different beast entirely. And and I think when I first did this analysis, when I grasped that Strategy cannot fail, that the way that they've put things together, the way that they've structured their their issuance and the way that they've made their preferred equities, preferred perpetual preferred equities that they basically cannot bankrupt. They cannot get over their skis or implode. That's when I, you know, got on board a little bit and was like, okay, there's something to the space. Um, and to understand this and that makes them different from all the other ones, right? So, that's that's one of the unique identifiers of Strategy. They're so big, which is a benefit of its own. They've been around for a while. Uh, but they also basically cannot fail. Um, a lot of these other ones, they're in different positions. They've, you know, collateralized their um their coins. Some of them don't hold their coins. Um, and there's a lot of of debt claims on on on the capital that they have or the bitcoin that they have in a way that Strategy is just completely different. Right? So Strategy had when before all these copycats started I somebody has to go back and look at the exact MNA but I want to say in the two, three, four range um so their shares were trading um a couple of times more than the Bitcoin that they held. And so the the arguments for that were always a little bit suspicious but they're somewhat plausible. And during the summer, the paper Bitcoin summer, we all sort of believed them because all you needed to do is put Bitcoin on your balance sheet, issue some securities, and your stock went up, not down the way that corporate finance would uh would would suggest or predict. Uh so, so let's say there were three, four um and then the more of these in the beginning of the of the spring and the summer when we got a lot of these uh copycats, I don't really recall that the MNAV was falling. I think they they stayed intact and they were sort of beneficial to Strategy in a sense because you know you make a product and then you have all these other hundreds of other people doing the same thing that sort of pulls more attention into the space and benefits you ultimately. Um, and I think beginning of August, middle of August something uh when all of these companies started getting into real trouble um the MNAB of even Strategy fell as well and it was sort of the last one to come. A lot of them maybe two months ago fell below one and then started to get interesting. But you know a lot the long tail of crappy treasury companies it's not that interesting that they go below one. We sort of expect that to happen in a rational world. Uh, but then I think MNAV Strategy is definitely flirting with one MNAV right now. Uh, depending again how you're accounting if you're adjusting for for for debt and um um and some of these converts that they have. Um, so yeah, that's basically the journey you know. uh and on all and that's so frustrating when you look at the the graph of the share every single one they look exactly the same they look like a shitco graph it's a it's a pump and dump straight up right um so that that's kind of disheartening in an industry and like among all these Bitcoiners talking about what they want Bitcoin to achieve and fix in the world and like hating on shitcoiners the way that we like to do and we I think we're at some level right to do um and and then the Bitcoin treasury company you pull up any chart of any of them and They look exactly the same.

And so the let's talk about strategy and why they can't fail for a second because this is an important this is something that we've been covering for several months. uh our fantastic analyst Johan Bergman from the Netherlands has been writing about this for us in explaining that the size and the buffer that strategy has is on its own planet relative to the rest of these companies. So there isn't really even a comparison. So what is it about strategy that you believe makes it um immune to failure? let's say in a large Bitcoin uh down move.

So, I don't know the exact number right now, but Bitcoin has to go to something like $12,000 before Strategy is underwater or insolvent on a on um comparing the assets and and the liabilities straight up. Even then, nothing happens, right? So, this is a a tricky thing for people to think of. It's like if you just ask a random person on the street um a company with, you know, $80 in assets and $100 in liabilities, what's up with that one? It's like, yeah, they're bankrupt. No, they're not. Bankruptcy is when you can't make your payment and you get sued for it. You're like, somebody takes you to court because you're not making your payment, right? So, that's the that's the second version in which Strategy is basically bulletproof. uh because they can cancel the payments on almost all of their debts whenever they want to. Like all the prepare perpetual preferred have clauses in them that say we can postpone paying this interest or we can choose just not to pay it. Of course, what would happen to these instruments is you know they will fall 50 60 90% in value and Strategy will have a hard time issue them ever again, right? They they ruin their reputation if they stop paying, right? they they carry some kind of burden but from a firm point of view Strategy itself as a going concern no problem they can just stop paying them wait for Bitcoin to recover right so that so that's basically the the hinge here that what I come back to over and over provided Bitcoin doesn't die which nobody in this space thinks because we wouldn't be here otherwise Strategy can't fail and and that's that was a really powerful insight when once I realized that uh so I definitely like like Joan um explains, it definitely has to do with size, but that's because they have so many Bitcoin, right? Like they have issued a bunch of securities in the billions, right? But they have even more Bitcoin. They have so much more Bitcoin than everybody else. So all these other copycats, they have like they couldn't really achieve the momentum that that Strategy had. So what they had to do is issue these securities very very quickly and and try to acquire some Bitcoin. But they if you start to compare all of their debts or converts or issued shares against what they have, it's like kind of close. Um so so those are the main two reasons like they can cancel payments anytime they want. Uh and they just have so much more. If you if you do a leverage ratio like you're 10 15% levered. Most people are that levered in their personal finances. No problem, right? Like most companies are levered like that. Like this is not a big deal. Uh so again um unless you think Bitcoin fails then there is no there's no problem with with Strategy. I think that's one of the reasons that a lot of trady people get this wrong as well. If you look at the coverage of you know Wall Street Journal or Financial Times or random negative financial newsletter if they don't get Bitcoin already they're going to look at this crazy financial engineering stuff going on and be like what? This can't work. This is going to go berserk. They have to employ it. Right. Um so that's that's so so I basically think of it as a two by two matrix right like people who get bitcoin and people who who don't and then people who get treasury companies and people who don't get treasury companies and all the interesting conversations are happening in people who get bitcoin but are not on the treasury company hype basically um so but but so a lot of tradi financial news they just happen in the in the other column they just don't get bitcoin and so of course they don't get Strategy that's that's sort of trivial uh so whenever they they they cover Strategy or or Sailor, it's like not that interested in what you've got to say. Um, but yeah, so do you want to talk about some of the other ones and and how they're different?

Now, yeah. Now, let's get into the others and you can bring us up to the current day. We've had uh a 30 plus% draw down in Bitcoin. I'm not exactly sure what the number is as of this moment. We're at block height 928,03. The Bitcoin price just below $86,000 as of this recording. So, Bitcoin has had a huge draw down in the fourth quarter. It has materially affected a lot of these equities. So, talk to us about some of the largest disasters and some of the numbers under the hood.

Right. Okay. So, I think and and and to what you just said, Strategy keeps buying Bitcoin at the tens of thousands every week, right? Like so that's a pretty good indication that they're different than all the other ones because if you if you remember if you were paying attention to this space in the summer in July August June July August or so every single company was issuing shares buying Bitcoin and there were pre press releases every single day if you updated bitcoin treasuries.net net like I was on a daily basis. You saw new people adding. Now in the last few weeks, nobody's been doing anything. Like there's the only people buying Bitcoin now, Sailor and and the team at Strategy, right? Like nobody else is buying uh more or less. And and so so that's a pretty good indication that they're different than all the other ones. So So that's one observation. All the other ones have stopped. They're kind of stayed where they are, which makes perfect sense again because where does the magic here come from? The magic here comes from printing shares at above at MNAV above one. Uh because then you you basically get money. You can acquire more more Bitcoin in an accretive way because printing shares don't do anything. It just dilutes existing shareholders. But if you're doing it uh when your shares are trading above the value of the thing you hold, uh you can buy more of that thing. You get free stuff. So now the Bitcoin price is working in in reverse. Um that engine is basically working in reverse as well. They can't issue more stock because most of them are trading below uh 1 MNAV. So if they issued stock right now, that's the only way they can get cash basically. If they issued more stock right now, uh they would dilute their shareholders more than the value of the of the Bitcoin that they get, right? So they're just destroying capital straight up, which is why everybody stopped. Uh some of the of the of the really nasty ones that we've seen like Naka is the straight up the example for this like from the peak I think the stock is down something like 99% 98.5% and from the pipe investment like from the pipe investment from the investment when they launched in May um they're down something like 70% so even that really really bad um and so what I just mentioned there a pipe deal there a couple of these that I've used I've used pipe deal and and knock are basically probably the biggest ones that I think 21 has some uh somebody needs to check that. Um, but there might be some pipe deals in there as well. Uh pipe deal uh are basically you are trying to find equity investors before you go publish. So you you round up a bunch of people and you sell shares to them usually at a preferential rate. Um, and so Naka launch launched at 1.12 in May with you know a who's who of everybody in in in Bitcoin. Adam Bach, Simon Ganovich, um like Balagi was in there I believe. Like these lists are all public at the SEC website. Uh, so a lot of people including some like pretty shady pretty shady Wall Street firms and and and other I believe the founder of the AOS shitcoin from back in the day put a not an insignificant amount of money in there. Anyways, so so these pipe deals come with terms and they unleash the shares at a given uh time. So um what and they've also both them and I think Strive um combined those with convertible debt which is the the instrument that the Strategy used first uh to acquire some of their stuff and ironically this is like 2025 Sailor has been talking he changes his narrative a little bit all the time and one of the things that he's he's said is like we really learned from the convertible debt and we really learned that you should not use things like that. It's not if we had to start he had a question a couple of months back and then he answered something like if we had to start over we wouldn't we just like do what we did this year and ignore like the first four or five years of of of Strategy doing its um Bitcoin treasury was just a learning curve more or less that you would have cut that out and go straight to the the stretch and the and the perpetual preferred and do that instead. So for for Naka for instance, they had a partner that wasn't exactly cooperative, the the issuer of their um convertible debt. Um, and so somebody who holds convertible debt against so what's a convertible debt? It's debt that can be converted into equity, right? So at a moment's notice, your lender has the ability to print shares like legally has the ability to redeem debt to get shares. Uh and if your magic is happening because you're printing shares, that's the entire value add of a big treasury company. you can print shares and buy more Bitcoin. If somebody else has the ability to print shares, then you've basically given up the control. This is what you want to do. If you're a Bitcoin treasury company, you want to print shares and buy Bitcoin. But now through convertible debts, you basically outsource that to the lender in the first place. So, they had a bunch of problems with the with the with their initial lender and they had to basically go from one lone shark to the next to be bailed out and get get out of that problem. And so in the process, you're just like like you're rolling over credit debt from one month to the next, right? You're just like destroying capital every step of the way. Um, so that was one problem. Another problem that happened in the in the between Strive and Similar Scientific in the acquisition that they did at the time, the narrative or the way that they were presenting this to to the markets and to to investors is like, "Wow, look at this. This was an all stock com transaction. we just paid with shares." Not realizing that that means that they were paying with overvalued tokens, right? They were just paying with emptiness. Um, so at the time I think their their Mna was something like three. So of course it looks like you're giving a bunch of premium uh when you're just paying you're handing over shares. And the problem there is when the deal closes, it still hasn't closed as far as I know. Uh you don't know what the Bitcoin price is going to be and we're, you know, suffering from that now. And you don't know what your own share price is going to be and Strive certainly suffered from that. So the the share price fell a lot since. So the deal if you calculated the deal now I think it's they are buying Similar at less than what they offered like way less even a par value like ignoring ignoring premiums and MN problems like that. So so these are some of the companies that have had some real problems. Um, another one is the French one I don't know particularly much about but it's one of the the ones that have actually admitted that they messed up and so they sold their Bitcoin. um not all of it. I think about 900 of of them. Um, which makes sense once your MNAV is below one as a corporate manager makes perfect sense to sell the asset that you have uh and and and buy back back some shares because instantly create value for your shareholders that way. Um, so those are two of the of the really bad examples. Now um it'll be interesting to see what 21 Capital and Jack Malers and and uh Tether can can manage to do. They have they've recently launched I think a week or two ago and they haven't really done anything. Jack Mer has been on Bloomberg talking about how he they're going to be a different kind of Bitcoin treasure company. I don't know. We'll see. Um I think they also fell below one MNAB just now this week. So we'll see. A lot of these are like untested, right? It's like I'm kind of happy that they're trying to do this thing. Um because it is a big question mark whether or not it works and and so far I think that kind of resounding answer the resounding answer so far is no like they don't really work strategies and a league of its own but the other ones that have tried to financially engineer Bitcoin and enter into Sailor's footstep followers footstep haven't really worked.

So, a big concern from people for the last couple years has been that strategy is such a behemoth that if they're forced to sell, it could ruin the market. Your working thesis is that they're not really going to be forced into liquidation any time soon or any uh, you know, in the range of a even a further 50% decline from here. It wouldn't really happen. But what about force selling from the rest? Is that likely? You mentioned one company has already engaged in it. Are there others? Is it all public knowledge? How much will it impact the market? What can you speak to these uh questions here?

I mean, some of these they become public because most of these companies are publicly listed. They have to file at regular intervals and so we find out one way or the other even if usually there are rumors and usually Bitcoiners can figure things out, right? But we do find out eventually. Um, and so what they basically struggled with, so so Strategy has the ability of not they can basically sit put and just don't do anything and wait for Bitcoin to recover. Um, and they can like now they're showing that they can actually sell issues into into strength as well or into weakness, which is pretty interesting. Most of these other companies I think are going to just sell because that makes the most sense, but they're not. So, so both of these stories I think a lot of trady get that wrong as well. So the typical story that you get in say Financial Times is uh that this is all circular like Strategy is issuing shares to buy bitcoin and when bitcoin goes up because Strategy bought a bunch of bitcoin then they can issue more shares against bitcoin. So you have like this perpetual sort of motion machine. Uh but Strategy is a small fish even in the big land of bitcoin. They don't really move the price, I don't think. Um, and I'd love to see somebody to show show me that they actually did. Like, Bitcoin trades way more in volume every day than than than Strategy can buy. And since all of these other smaller ones are order of magnitude smaller, like they can all liquidate and I don't think anything happens to the Bitcoin price. So, they it's asymmetric in that sense that they are really affected by the Bitcoin price, but they don't affect Bitcoin price in what they do really. Um, so a lot of them probably sell some of their Bitcoin um just to survive or create some kind of space for themselves and you know yeah, if Bitcoin falls to you know 10,000 and stays there for a while I think all of them throw in their throw in the towel and start over and Strategy's can have some problem but they they've been pretty public in this like the CEOs on some podcast and Sailor's saying this publicly all the time like there are tons of other lines of defense before they get to actually selling Bitcoin. They can do all kinds of other things including um using derivatives uh to harvest some revenue. Um, they can issue some of the other perpetual preferreds that don't really dilute MSTR's shareholders. They can also tap MSTR shareholders because at the end of the day they don't as a firm they don't really care that what the price of MSTR is. They just needed to um to sell more of them. So that's that's some of the stuff that I'm thinking about. And I wanted to ask you, you mentioned Tether a couple different times here. What people need to understand is that when it comes to the Bitcoin market, if you look at where Bitcoin trades in size, essentially nine of the top 10 trading centers, and by centers I mean particular exchanges, the cross is BTC USDT. It's not USD. The only USD cross in the top 10 of Bitcoin volume is the Coinbase onshore uh trading environment. The rest of the world including uh you know hedge funds that are trading this is slinging it around cross uh exchange arbitrage activities. Tether is at the middle of that. So your point about Strategy not being able to move the market, it's actually they're not even playing on the biggest field.

When it comes to Bitcoin trading, maybe you can talk a little bit about Tether from your perspective. Now they're involved with Jack Mullers and this 21 uh equity. They I also saw they are trying to buy the Italian football club Juventus uh for 1.1 billion in all cash. I found that also very interesting.

Talk about Tether a little bit, you know, with no strings attached.

I mean, it is the world's most profitable business model, right? It's just amazing. You issue liabilities at 0% interest. uh non like you can't call maybe you can uh but basically they don't come back to you and you invest that in whatever you want but mostly US treasuries that yield 4% it's like okay 400 basis point free money all right cool and then you do that in the 200 billion range right like 185 thou billion I think is is is outstanding data right now so you're just sitting on you know 20 30 whatever the math comes out to um billion of of profit or revenue every single year. And they've been starting to invest, you know, they held I think it came out that they have they hold a decent amount of that in gold. So they've been doing well this year. They've been buying Bitcoin with it. They've been buying football teams. Like they Yeah, they're just printing money over there, having a good time. Um so so yeah, this that's kind of funny how, you know, we we make this beautiful innovative technological thing to be outside of the financial system. And the most successful company is one that just holds like we want to get out of government money and it's just some a company just holds government money straight up like they weren't working so well in a zero interest rate environment a couple of years ago so maybe they won't work like this forever and you know maybe maybe uh geopolitics and and the Fed rate coming down and maybe the Treasury rates come down you're the you're the bond expert but if they those come down then like a lot of this magic goes away for for them as well. Um, so I think there's some analogies there uh to the Bitcoin treasury companies that you're just printing free money and having a good time except that their trade worked out and the current ones the Bitcoin treasure companies don't really work out very well. Uh, so that's amazing. Uh, the other question there that I'm I'm not particularly interested in the, you know, all these FUD about Tether running the Bitcoin price. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I haven't seen particularly convincing evidence that they do. It's this talking point that comes up all the time. What is really interesting is that they're they're the only natural buyer of US treasuries these days. Like nobody else is buying US treasuries. Um, and for a long time I was like well they can't be big enough to actually solve the US debt problem, right? Like they can't actually matter if you just like look at the numbers, right? 30 trillion of of USD US treasury is outstanding more or less um or at least tradable and and and Tether is a, you know, 185 billion something like that that's not enough but then you start looking at the the mar like that so so that was my first error it doesn't matter right it's not the it's not the to sum total that matter it's how much you need to roll over at any given time and to be able to keep the the interest rates down and they actually they are becoming probably this year the biggest buyer of treasuries. Um I don't think those numbers are are public yet so we'll we'll find out. But one of the biggest buyers of treasuries for sure and that's a sizable u um help when there is nobody else like the Fed has been selling you know trillions of of treasuries. China isn't buying treasuries. I think they're scaling down their holdings. Um like you got hedge funds in the Cayman's buying treasuries and you got Tether. So like Tether is a much better um partner for for the US Treasury and I think you can sort of tell from a lot of the the news cycle and stable coin legislation things happening in Washington like yeah I think a lot of powerful um powerful people in the political sphere understand how important Tether is to rolling over the US debt.

And I can speak to that. In Washington, the Genius Act and Associated Stable Coin legislation, one of the primary drivers to get it over the finish line was not that the US needs to embrace innovation, but that the US needs to capture this market for US treasuries by allowing these stable coins to exist and use that positive carry game to uh basically assist the United States in its funding. Yokim, I probably won't get into all the buyers that I believe are there right now for US treasuries and I always have just a naturally uh somewhat of a bullish stance toward um US debt, US sovereign debt specifically. And that comes down to basically the $350 trillion dollar of debt outstanding across the world and the quality difference in treasuries versus that 300 trillion in in debt that's outside of the US Treasury. But that can be a conversation uh for another time. The last question I want to ask you uh before we break is what is your outlook now for these treasury companies off of the back of a big decline in Bitcoin? Is Bitcoin going to continue to be under pressure from this Treasury company dynamic? Is it under pressure from macro? From your vantage, what are your thoughts?

I mean, I have no idea why the Bitcoin price is doing its thing. I don't I don't think anybody who says that they do uh have a pretty good idea in the first place. But yeah, I I I think they're too small. They just don't make that much of a difference. They will press on the margin, right, for sure. If you know 150 of the 200 treasury companies liquidate their Bitcoin, then of course that tomorrow, of course, that's going to have some kind of impact. Um, but they're buyers for that and they're not that big. Um, if Strategy runs into trouble or one of the really big ones like Mara or 21 or uh some of the other ones like MetaPlanet we haven't really discussed. Um, if they run into serious problem and and and have to sell all of their coins at a a notice a moment's notice and then then we might that might be a problem. But I think the treasury market is pretty much dead until Bitcoin revives. Like until we get sustained increases in the price of Bitcoin, you're not going to see the mayhem or the may the mania that we had in the summer. We're not going to see a bunch of of them growing and adding to their stack every single week except Strategy again being in a different uh different league. Um, so yeah, I think I think I made a public call in one of my articles saying that you know in a year's time this won't be a thing. It's kind of not not you can't really call me on that prediction of what does it mean for something to be a thing but I don't think treasury companies will be Strategy will be around they will exist but they won't we won't have this fad we won't have hundreds of them um and I think a lot of them are going to go away in the near future or at least stop working right like they so that's another misunderstanding here that they can always just most of them can always just resort to existing becoming zombie companies holding some Bitcoin right they don't they don't have to do anything and there's nothing unless you have debt And unless you have interest payments that you have to fulfill, you can just sit on the Bitcoin that you have and be happy ever after. Like your share price is not going to be great. You're not going to be able to keep doing this thing, but there's nothing really to to get you out of there. Whereas a lot some of these companies that do have debt converts or or perpetual that they need to service all the time, they they need to come up with money, right? And they're trying to investigate how to. And that's that's sort of exciting from somebody like like me. me, I come from a finance background. I'm interested in Bitcoin. I'm interested in in how financial markets work. It's kind of cool to see them experiment with a crazy idea and see if it works. And if they can come up with some new way of of generating um revenue and enough money to sort of service the payment obligations of the app and say, you know, we'll we'll see how it goes. I'm kind of negative and I'm I've had a good time this year looking at all of this and it's been quite the ride. Um, but yeah, I don't I don't like on them too much because, you know, share prices are doing that for them. Like, it's it's it nothing I say or anybody else say can hurt the people involved in in Bitcoin treasury companies more than the than Wall Street already has. And the only one who's been happy is basically Jim Chenos, who's been shorting some of them. And he he he got a lot of um doing this trade in the summer and he was completely right.

Yo, Kim Book, thank you so much for sharing your insights today with the Bitcoin layer. Please tell people where they can find your writing online.

Uh, you can find me on Nostra at primal.netimbuk. Uh, all of my writing is uh collected on a website called Authory. So, author.combuk um on Twitter on most places where Bitcoiners are at. Yeah.

Thank you for your time. We appreciate you. I'm Nick Batia. We'll catch you guys next time.