Transcription
For me, my perspective is that English belongs to the world. It is a world language.
There's no such thing as bad communication in English. We hear a lot about social media today about how it's affecting different areas of our lives. I think the difficulty is going to be really knowing whether what you're listening to is real.
People join us from Everest Base Camp, you know? That's just fantastic. So see if you can top that! You're listening to the British Council English Podcast, brought to you by the world's English experts.
Okay. Welcome to the English for Life podcast, everyone. I'm here today with Neil, with Neeraj. You've probably actually already seen them quite often on our YouTube channels, and we're talking about social media and English language learning. So, the effects that social media has had on English language learning.
So, Neil, I think you told me you've been teaching thirty, what, thirty years? You told me to say that, yeah. Something like that. Something like that. A few years, yeah. Many years. So, like, real steadfast teacher here. Neeraj, how long have you been teaching? Around... just under twenty years. Okay. So but, like so, collectively... We've got about over fifty years' experience. Since before the days of the Internet, never mind before the days of social media. Okay, so we've got some solid, solid guests on the show today. I love how I've just made it my show. It's not my show.
But, also, most interestingly, for the conversation we're having today, you both have, you both work a lot with social media. So can you just quickly give, like, a one sentence liner on what you do with social media right now?
I manage the social media channels for learners that the British Council has worldwide, and we have, you know, we have all the main kind of ones. We have, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, X and so on. And basically, you know, we we have millions of followers worldwide. I think, eight and a half million, something like that. and and, you know, I communicate with them every day. I'm online every day. Content and live events, everything like that. Every day online? Yeah, every day.
Neeraj? So I work with Neil and an international team of people who are working on our social media channels, posting materials for English language learners, and also participating in live events, live lessons. So me and Neil collaborate on a Friday live lesson. Which you guys should tune in, by the way. Fridays. What time? Absolutely. It's at two o'clock. Two o'clock, UK time. Yeah. Two o'clock UK time, Fridays. And it's all about... Usually, we talk about writing skills for exams. Voila. Actually, you Gabriel, you were right. I don't know where he's gone. Gabriel was right about that.
Okay, so I have a couple of questions for you guys. Because you've, so you've been teaching, we said, around thirty years, twenty years. Shhh! Yeah. So you've seen you've seen a shift. You were teaching when social media came on the scene. Absolutely. So what I'm really interested to know is, we hear a lot about social media today, about how it's affecting different areas of our lives. I'm interested, how do you think or how have you noticed that social media has affected English language, so teaching beforehand. So how has it affected you in your jobs?
Okay. That's a really good question. I'm not sure that it's affected teaching as much as it could have, because I'm not sure that teachers are always entirely on board with social media in that. But in terms of learners, it's had a tremendous effect, you know. I was just saying to Neeraj before we started, when I started teaching, there was no opportunity for learners in countries to communicate with other people in English in any way. You know, the only English they generally got was in class at school or from cassette tapes. We may have to show a picture of that because, you know, I don't know if people even know what cassette tapes are any more. But now... They do! They're coming back in. That's true. Yeah. Now people are communicating in English every single day, through social media. They're linking up with groups of people who have the same interests as them. They're sharing their ideas. They're communicating in a real, a genuine communicative way, you know, about their ideas, their thoughts, their opinions, whether they're, you know, on a Taylor Swift board someplace or whether they're on Reddit or, you know, whatever they're doing, they're able to actually communicate in English, you know, and read lots of English, watch lots of English, and interact with it in a meaningful way, which just wasn't possible when I started teaching. It just didn't exist. Yeah. It's true.
Well, I would say for teachers, from a teacher's perspective, social media has given us platforms where we can collaborate with each other and also find a community where we support each other and share ideas. So that's ... it's been, I mean, for me personally, having, access to a group of teachers, like minded teachers who are sharing materials and ideas and supporting each other saying, you know, well done for that. Great work. I think that's really useful. That kind of community of practice among teachers has been a big benefit in the sharing and we've got one of we've got those, you know, for example, the British Council Teaching English community where you get teachers from all over the world asking questions, sharing their problems, saying, what do I do about this? We publicise training and all kind of upcoming events as well, so it keeps people in the loop about what opportunities are available in developing their skills as teachers.
Yeah. I just want to ... One thing that you said, Neil, which kind of, just to see what you have to this challenge, but the fact that people are using social media, so here I'd be talking about learners. So they'd be using social media every single day to write in English, talk in English, et cetera. Is there a level, therefore, where there is a dilution of English, in the sense that, what do I mean by that? I mean like, because people have to use it a lot more frequently and because it's so much more globalised and because it's not people aren't necessarily learning with teachers, do you know what I mean? That there's a kind of there's a new ... there's maybe, and maybe it's just an evolution of English, but one where it's ... Are you talking about moving away from a standard? Moving away from a standard, but then ... And people not knowing what the standard really is. People not knowing what the standard is. And is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? I don't know. What what are your thoughts on that? And do you mean, like, in terms of the standards in their writing, their production or their speaking? All of it. All of it. Yeah.
And just as an anecdote, I mean, it's not necessarily completely linked to social media, but, I remember going to an engineering school here in Paris and everybody was, so they were all speaking English, but there was nobody in the group who had grown up speaking English. And so, it was really funny because I entered into the room, everybody was speaking English, they were French, Colombian, kind of from all over the world and I started speaking and they all just stopped and looked at me and they were like, we've never had like somebody who grew up in the UK come in here before and they were like, your English is really different to ours. And they all spoke English fluently, but it was like it was almost like another English had evolved. And so it's not, that example isn't specifically linked to social media, but I can see how that would happen. Like, you were talking about gaming English, like, people speaking in gaming and using abbreviations all the time, and that just sinking into everyday English.
I think you're you're touching on the topic of who does English belong to. And does it belong to the native speakers of English? And, I mean, that's a whole that's another massive area of research and debate. For me, my perspective is that English belongs to the world. It is a world language, and people use it as they need it, as they need to in order to communicate the ideas that they want to. And as long as everybody understands each other, that's fine.
But then why teach English if there's no standard? If you can do anything you want with it. Well, it's not, it's not a case that you can do anything you want with it all the time. But for me, there's no such thing as bad communication in English, you know, if people are communicating in English about gaming and and it's it's engaging them with the language and and they're using it, they're learning different ways to express their ideas, they're communicating like, what what you said there about your engineering school, that filled my heart with joy. It's the idea of walking into a room with all these nationalities, you know, voluntarily speaking in English. I wouldn't want to kind of impose anything on that. You know what I mean? I think that's a wonderful thing in itself. And and like Neeraj says, you know, it's a world language, it belongs to everyone and there are different purposes. Of course, there are situations for work and everything else where you have limitations and where you have to use standard forms. But I I think we underestimate people. I think people are aware of that. And if they're not, it's quite easy to kind of, you know, bring it up. But I mean, you know... there are lots of kind of TikTok videos and things like that of Gen Z people at work kind of speaking in some way. I'm sure it can happen. People can use different language and it might be inappropriate at times. But I think it's a very small thing that's easily overcome. I think people learn, in your own language, you know, you switch all the time.
Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say, I mean, online, social media, you often see people criticising each other's use of English, and then we're talking about native speakers. you know, that, it's not written like that or you've missed an apostrophe there. And so there's such large variation in the way we use native speakers use their own language. Who owns English? I don't know if our listeners know that there is no body that actually, officially controls English language like, perhaps, I think in French, France has an institution that is the official body that, makes all the rules or says whether a word's allowed or not. That doesn't exist in English. Yeah, okay, we're currently filming in France, hence the, I think, the French reference, potentially, I don't know. Well, also because they are the only kind of ... Oh, are they? Are they the only... Well, Spain has a Real Academy, the Espanol, and they produce the, official grammar and the dictionary, and words are officially authorised or not based on what they say, and it's a group of people who are academics and experts in the language. But do people pay attention to it? Sometimes, yes because the rules are what is applied in certain contexts, like academic contexts and the official government bulletins and reports that come out, whether a word is accepted or not, it depends on what these people say.
So we're kind of drifting away a little bit from social media I think and just to bring it back, you know, I ... basically, I understand what you're saying. You're absolutely right. You know, if your goal is to become a doctor and to study medicine in English and to practice as a doctor in English, obviously, your needs are gonna be very different from somebody whose, you know, goal is to progress in World of Warcraft or something like that. That fine. But one helps the other in my experience. You know, the fact that, the beautiful thing about social media for me, the thing, the reason that I love it is because it does connect people, and it gives them a chance to communicate about what they're passionate about, what they're interested in. And it doesn't feel like work. It doesn't feel like they're studying. It's like you were saying earlier about inadvertent learning. You know, they're they're not going there necessarily to learn English, but they're using English and learning English, and the impact is tremendous. I've seen it, you know, in students. And quite a common thing, I mean, even my students to this day say to me, oh, I wish I could practise more English, practise more speaking, practise more writing. Well, with social media, it gives you that opportunity to practise with live, you know, real people in front of you. You know? You're not practising with a machine. That's the big question that we get online on our social media channels all the time. I have no one to practise with. You know? We have to say to them, you're practising now as you write. As you write. And it does transfer, you know? You might only be writing, typing comments and stuff like that, but that does support your speaking and everything else and all of your kind of familiarity and fluency in English. It does help, you know? So, we have lots of content coming out. So one way to practise is go and watch it all and write your comments in the ... Absolutely. And we'll reply to them as well. Yeah, you do.
Just, so I have one question, that I wanted to get on, which I think will be, so what do you think, if you had learners... so, learners are watching this video. We hope. We hope. What would be one thing that you would say is brilliant about the way that they can use, and you've kind of touched on this already, but just as in a one liner, brilliant about social media and using social media to help them learn English, and one thing that they need to be wary of. So if you could give me one each, basically. So, Neil, one thing that's brilliant about it and one thing that they need to be wary of, and same for you Neeraj.
For me, the thing that's brilliant about it is the flexibility. It's the fact that there's a whole range. However you want to interact, you can interact. You know, I I love TikTok, you know. I know it's embarrassing for a man of my age, but I can't help it. I love it. And, you know, for me to spend half an hour, thirty minutes, forty minutes You've fallen into the black hole. It's a joy. It's a pleasure. So that's a great thing. But other people might be, you know, interested in other things. They might be on Reddit. They might be on Instagram, they might be on X. Whatever you want to do, wherever you want to practise, whenever you want to kind of engage in that way, you can do it. And you can follow, like I said earlier, your passion or your interest. That's the good thing. What could be more convenient than pulling out your phone while you're on the bus? Exactly. You've got your phone out anyway, you know, so... You can just listen to a podcast or reply to a comment on somebody's post. Yeah. So the flexibility, anytime, anywhere, whatever platform you want to go with that.
Wary? Something to be wary of? This is gonna be really hard for Neil. It is! I'm a bit, you know, super positive on this, but there are, of course, I mean, one of the things that we have problems with is it's not specifically related to language learning, but obviously misinformation and, amplifying negative behaviour and so on. That can certainly happen, and I think I think it's something that people are, people younger than me, which is everyone, let's face it, are better at kind of doing and navigating than we give people credit for. But there is a risk, and there's a risk of misinformation, even in terms of language teaching. I see some content which is factually incorrect.
So how can they, how can they be aware of that? Like, how can you be, how can you be wary of that? If you're watching it, you don't know the grammatical principle of something. Like, how do you know, okay, this person I should be listening to, this person I shouldn't be, specifically with English language learning. Well, that's the same skills as kind of discerning inform... any kind of information from the Internet. You know, you would check the source of the information, who's making it, what kind of credentials they have, is it somebody who's got a long career in English language teaching and, and producing these kind of, this kind of material How many people are in, how many, the kind of people that endorse them as well. There's a kind of a whole list of factors. I'm sure I'm missing out a few things, but looking at those kind of things tells you the quality of the information you're being given and also contrasting what you're hearing or what you're looking at with, what other people say as well. And if you see that they coincide, they're saying the same thing, it's probably something to pay attention to. Yeah. So it is a risk. I mean, you know, you're right. People don't necessarily have the time or the motivation to dig in and kind of say, is this, you know, is this person a good provider? Is this content really good or not? They just kind of go through that. But to an extent, I mean, I think it goes back to what I said earlier about there not being any bad way to interact. Even if you're doing that, you know, the more you do it, the more you experience things like that. There's a lot of self policing goes on. Like you said earlier, people criticising their own language, things like that. You do get things like that popping up, but from time to time, and people going, that's not true. That's rubbish. And we we even get it on our ... we get people popping up on our websites telling us we're wrong. Which we aren't. But, you know, then we have to speak to them and say, you know, I understand where you're coming from, though, but actually, you know, it kinda works.
And what about you, Neeraj? One brilliant and one... You've just reminded me of something I did with a couple of students a little while ago. One of my students, I got her to to to create a blog, where she was posting audio of her English speaking, answering questions over the course of a couple of years. And so I said by the end of the, you know, the two years, you'll be able to listen back to how you started and then listen to your progress. And, you know, these things were made public and posted and, generally, the comments were good, but sometimes there were some comments that weren't that nice. And I think that's a problem with social media that if you put yourself out there, you make yourself vulnerable, you can get trolled. What a good idea though for learners to do that. To, like, document their... I don't know how many, I mean, do you often tell your students to do that? Or was it just a... I mean, the idea came from a it was a teacher's conference I went to, and the speaker said, you know, we get lots of writing, and it's easy to correct. You've got a record. What about speaking? What's the record of speaking? Well, record. Everyone's got a phone, It's good. and to add another dimension to it, why not publicise it and make it available, and then other people can listen to it and you get feedback from a much wider variety. Yeah. And so I went with that idea and did some experiments. So, yeah, coming back to the idea of trolling and negative feedback, I mean, that is something that social media has that risk. And then there's kind of psychological impacts of that as well. You know, if you, if you, a lot a lot of influencers complain of, being quite heavily trolled and that affects their mental health.
Okay, thank you so much. I have one thing that I really would love to get your thoughts on. Okay. Oh, which one should I go for? What trend... based on... So, both of you spend a lot of time, as we said, on social media right now as part of your jobs. So what trends do you foresee, say in the next like five years of English language learners... of how English language learners use social media to learn English, but in the next five years, like, how do you see them using it? That's not happening currently, but little things that you're seeing. That's a good question. It's a difficult question because prediction in this field is so difficult because five years ago, nobody would have predicted TikTok. Yeah. True. Yeah. And and, you know, it's it's taken over the world. It's, and, you know, two years ago, nobody would have predicted ChatGPT, and it's taken over the world. It's a tough one. But that's why I'm going to let Neeraj go first.
I think a lot more people would be, would be incorporating AI to the way they use social media, having their posts checked automatically. Perhaps, I think the difficulty is going to be really knowing whether what you're listening to is real, whether it's been created by a person or it's been put together, so, we're gonna hear a lot better quality of English because everything will be, checked and filtered and... Do you think that's gonna create a separation between what they can actually do then? Yeah, what's the reality? Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, what reality, and then it it could change expectations as well and ... Interesting. How people feel they should present themselves in English, how real they can be. This is what I think. That's so interesting.
How about you, Neil? I mean, there's a couple of issues there that I was kind of thinking of. You know, social media itself, I would say, is largely a kind of democratizing kind of thing in that, you know, people ... we have audiences from every country in the world, you know, when we have this, it doesn't matter about the income level and so on and everything. We just have, you know, it basically has penetrated most of the world at this point at some point. But when you talk about technology and when you talk about, actual devices and so on, then you've got a risk of different, you know, obviously income and, you know, accessibility to things where expense and cost comes in then then becomes an issue that could be difficult. Because what I think is gonna be the big change is the technology. I don't think it's gonna be necessarily you know, platforms change all the time. You know, Facebook is going has gone up, down, TikTok zoomed up. That will continue to change. And, you know, there will be new channels, new platforms that we don't know now that will take over. But I think the technology that we use to interact with it is going to be a big deciding factor. There's been lots of failed things so far with, you know, your Google Glass, and, you know, smart glasses and the recent AI pin thing that kind of didn't do very well and so on. But at some point, there's gonna come a device, you know. We're not always gonna be, you know, using our phone for this. And at some time, the barrier is gonna come down, I think, where your ability to interact with social media is gonna be, like, all kind of always on. No you know, really easy to do at any point. I don't know what it's gonna be. But that will be a fundamental change, I think, because then what you're talking about there, people will be checking and working that all the time, constantly, without having to go to a laptop or a phone or anything like that. But that because of the fact that there will be cost involved in it, of course, then you've got the risk of developing, you know, a two tier or more multi tier society where a lot of people don't have access to that equipment, and then you've got something that's different. So interesting. Thank you so much. That's been a really interesting conversation. Lots of food for thought. Can we finish on an up? That seems like we're finishing on a bit of a down there! End on ... you have one up sentence that you can give. Go for it.
Honestly, my sentence would be just, you know, don't be afraid. It's always, you know, one of the things is people are shy or nervous about participating. And a lot of people read and watch, but they don't participate. And I think, you know, we don't judge people. We don't correct people or anything like that. We just want people to communicate. To talk, to write. Just, you know, follow our channels, just go on and just jump in. If you've got a question, ask it. It doesn't matter how you might think it's a silly question. You might think I should know this. Forget it, just do it. And if you, if somebody says something and you want to respond, do it.
How about you Neeraj? A real testament to social media, when me and Neil do these, live classes on Fridays, we always begin with a question saying, where is everybody connected from? Please tell us in the comments. And we get people from Mongolia, Japan, North Africa, Middle East, Latin America, and it's just incredible. All these different countries, everybody's connected all together, all learning English, all joining us for this one hour class all about learning writing for an exam. And it's really heartwarming to see this community of people who are supporting each other and, ready to participate. So I think that's a real positive of social media.
We've had people join us from Everest Base Camp. You know, that's just fantastic. So see if you can top that! If you're somewhere ... I don't know how you can top that. Based on the moon? I don't know. Super interesting conversation. If you've enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe to our podcast, or our YouTube channel because we have lots more podcasts coming out, videos coming out, and, yeah, we're gonna be talking about some really fascinating topics. So thank you, Neil, Neeraj. Thanks to you, Nishma. See y'all soon. Take care. Thanks for listening. We really care about your English. So if you like this episode, make sure you subscribe because we've got lots more great content for you to explore.