How is a circular economy linked to mining?

Let's start. Perfect. Let's start the webinar and welcome everyone to the National Circular Economy Stakeholder Dialogue. Today, we are actually looking at mining, and we chose the topic: "How is a Circular Economy Linked to Mining?" I am personally very excited about this webinar. We have fantastic speakers lined up as well today. Um, and the stakeholder dialogue is conducted by the African Circular Economy Network, um, and the Circular Econ and Circular South Africa for the GIZ, in partnership with the Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment. Um, it falls under the Green Economy Transformation Project, and the project's objective is to support decision-makers in the selected partner countries, such as Argentina, Costa Rica, Indonesia, and South Africa, in their endeavors to develop and implement enhanced political frameworks for an inclusive green economy. And with that, actually, I can hand over to Dr. Dorier for the introduction and the opening.

Thank you, Kina. And, um, very welcome, uh, to all the participants of this webinar on circularity in mining. A very warm welcome to Dr. Janita Badul from the Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment, and thanks for the cooperation with the Department that makes this webinar possible. Also, thank you, Katrina, gearing to you and your team for making this possible and leading us through the day today. I'm Doria. I'm heading the program Green Economy Transformation, GIZ 4.0, advising the German Federal Ministry for the Environment, Nature Conservation, Nuclear Safety and Consumer Protection. The GIZ program is funded by the International Climate Initiative, which is a key instrument of German international environmental policy, and it's managed by the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Action. We're supporting global efforts in climate action and biodiversity conservation, and through the International Climate Initiative and GIZ 4.0, Germany collaborates with international partners to promote sustainable development and environmental resilience. GIZ aims to support countries in transitioning to a green economy by promoting sustainable and inclusive economic growth. The program objective is to foster and encourage adoption of environmentally sustainable practices across various sectors, in particular, approaches of circular economy. South Africa is one of the four partner countries of GIZ, and we're very grateful for the very good and fruitful partnership and cooperation with DFFE, South Africa, as shown, for example, by this webinar series. Last week, some of you might have joined already, the very interesting webinar on circular food systems. Why this seminar today? Our Minister, Min L, always likes to speak about the triple planetary crisis of climate change, biodiversity loss, and pollution. That's what's driving her personally forward, and it shows the need for a circular economy, and, um, which becomes increasingly urgent on a global level. By advancing circular practices, we can reduce waste, conserve resources, and ultimately contribute to the global effort to achieve sustainability. The mining sector, with its significant environmental footprint, plays a crucial role in a circular transformation. So the focus of today's discussion, circularity in mining, could not be more relevant. The mining sector is a cornerstone of South Africa's economy, contributing significantly to employment, GDP, and export revenues of the country. A circular transformation in this sector is crucial for ensuring long-term sustainability, reducing environmental impacts, and enhancing resource efficiency, which are essential for addressing both economic and ecological challenges. I would like to thank all the distinguished speakers who bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to this conversation. The insights from today will help us to better understand the challenges and opportunities in the field. Thanks to the participants for joining. Thanks a lot again to DFFE for the cooperation and to ACN for the organization and running through the webinar. I wish you all and us all a productive and inspiring discussion. Thank you.

Thanks, Daria, for your welcoming words. I am going to now hand over to my colleague, Nontu. Um, before we jump into the series, we also just want to give you some insights of the objectives of the series and, um, which other sectors we're going to focus on in the next few weeks. Nontu, over to you.

Good afternoon and thank you very much, um, for that, uh, inspiring introduction, both from, um, Ms. Dr. Riki, sorry if I, I'm mispronouncing your name, and to you, Katarina, and to the colleagues, uh, at DFFE, at, uh, GIZ, and all the participants. And I think, just to reiterate the objectives of today's discussion and the entire dialogue series, um, it's, it's ultimately to galvanize action. So, from discussion, from collaborating, from sharing insights, the ultimate objective is for us to agree on what the next steps are going to be and what we are going to commit ourselves to in terms of championing a just transition within specifically within this sector. So, just to give you an overview of the, the, the objectives of the discussion series or the dialogue series: The first one is to initiate cross-sectoral discussions and foster knowledge exchange about the circular economy. Um, you will note that in the next slide, we're touching on quite a few sectors, starting with agriculture. Today, we're moving to mining, um, the next one will be manufacturing, and ending off with, um, energy. And our aim is really to break the silos within these, um, within these sectors and show that we actually need to foster knowledge exchange. We need to have these dialogues so that we can work together. Um, the second objective is raising awareness and information about a circular economy, about circular economy principles and interventions that promote circular economy as a development tool for South Africa. One of my favorite phrases when it comes to that is when Dr. Linda Godfrey says, "The circular economy is not about waste." And I think the conversation today is definitely going to echo that. It is a holistic systems, um, perspective in terms of how we produce and how we consume, um, our goods in the market. And the third objective for, for, for the series really is to bring together a diverse set of stakeholders around different sectors to provide a collaborative platform around circularity. And you will note that within the room today, we've got business owners, we've got people from academia, we've got, uh, people in the policy sector. So again, the objective is to integrate that inclusivity across various sectors in, in the dialogue and discussion. And then, lastly, um, I think to answer your question, Julie, feedback and input from stakeholders regarding needs of regulatory or policy support for circularity. Again, you know, what are the insights that we're going to take out of this, and how are we going to use these insights? We don't want them sitting in File 13 for the next 10 years, but we actually want to take and implement these, um, insights and, um, develop action strategies in terms of how we are going to help this industry in particular transition to, um, a circular economy. Thank you.

And to the next slide, as I had already touched on, we are looking at these four sectors, not to say that, um, the other sectors within the market are not relevant, but I think this was where we really wanted to focus, or we, we felt as a team and as a collective that we had an opportunity to create the greatest impact within the shortest period of time. So, by having, by focusing on these sectors, our aim and objective really is to, um, foster collaboration where we've already seen, or, or we've learned that there are opportunities and low-hanging fruit for everyone to get involved and take action. Um, the four dialogue series will culminate in an in-person event, and we're looking forward to seeing everyone there, meeting face-to-face, and networking, continuing the dialogue, continuing the action, continuing the commitment to a just transition in South Africa. Um, with that, I will hand over to Katarina, and she will, uh, facilitate our first poll for today, and that will be just to, uh, break the ice and also get us onto the same page in terms of understanding what circularity is within, um, our various contexts. Thank you. Over to you, Karina.

Thanks, Nontu. Um, let me just stop sharing and also start the first poll from my side. So it should show up. We have asked the same question in the agriculture, um, webinar as well, just to garner some interest here of what the understanding is, because there are more than 200 definitions of circularity. We have ISO having a technical definition of circularity nowadays, um, but we are still very interested in what the understanding is of the participants today online. I see the first one is in. Don't be shy, there's no right or wrong. Going to give you a few more seconds, and even if, even if you have no understanding of it, that's also a very relevant answer, as well. I can see there are more and more people are answering. I'll share just now also on my screen what the actual answers are. Give you like 30 more seconds. Hey, I think people are a little bit shy, but I'm going to take the 17 answers that I do have. So I'm going to close the poll. What I'm going to do now is actually share it from this side, if Zoom allows me to. Let me just refresh from my side. Screen. Okay, you should be able to see the answers. Let me just zoom in. Okay, so we do have again, quite a bit of around resource efficiency and keeping materials within a loop where its value is sustained. Medium high. Been in it for 20 years. I think that's a great answer. We all are constantly learning around circularity. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Yes, the 10R ladder comes to mind. Absolutely. Extend the life cycle of goods. Designing out waste. Are someone is having read the Ellen MacArthur Foundation's three principles, which we are going to speak to in a second. Yes, and how can waste actually be used in a circular economy instead of it being landfilled? Right. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Going to just share my presentation on my end again, because we're going to do a bit of a dive again into circularity. For those that have been on the agricultural webinar, you just have to sit through it. I know you've heard it before. Um, some of you might know me, I'm Katarina. I haven't said my name before, but my colleagues have, so thanks for that. I really, really love this, um, slide, and we have used it also for, um, the agriculture one. But this is actually from a publication that is talking about the impossibilities of circularity, and it is accumulating all of the research around impossibilities of how we can actually reach circularity. And they actually made illustrations from it. And I think from this graph, or from this illustration, what becomes very clear is that a circular economy can't keep growing our economy and our, um, current economy and how we see it at the moment. So we can't actually have exponential growth in our economy because we only have a limited amount of resources on this planet. And I think this is depicting today's session and discussion really, really well. Um, I had a look at the, um, Global Material, um, Flows and the Global Resource Outlook of 2020 four, which I would really recommend you to also have a look. It's just a really nice overview of how material extraction over the last 50 years had, has unfortunately exponentially grown. So we have extracted in, um, in 1970, 3.9 billion tons, and that has reached 95.1 billion tons in 2020. We do also see that during COVID and obviously also the Ukraine-Russian war, there was a bit of a dip in how many resources we have extracted, but the annual growth rate around resource extraction is around 2.9% on average. So we see that even though we're trying to foster circularity, resource extraction is still growing, even though we're trying to feed those resources back into the loop. Just a quick one on South Africa, maybe not a major net exporter of materials, but we are listed under the top 10 net exporters worldwide, and obviously, you see that Australia is leading that. Coming back to why we're speaking about mining and material extraction is the current linear economy. Um, as you know, at the moment, we are extracting resources, we're making products like our cell phones, like our cans, and then actually, we are usually discarding them after end of life. And in the case of South Africa, a lot of them still are ending up on the landfills. Well, waste as such is a human concept. So nature as such doesn't really know waste. Um, and our economy at the moment is built on a very wasteful, um, production of goods, of goods. So that's how our economy keeps growing. And why we need to figure out this linear economy problem is because we only have, as I said, one Earth. We only have as many, um, resources and minerals, um, to use, and we are many countries and many people that actually want to access resources and also increase, um, their life qualities. If you look at the country overshot days, you see that South Africa is actually around about in June. So it's in the middle. So within, at June 18th or June 20th, for South Africa, we have actually used up all the resources that are present for us within a year. Unfortunately, each year, the country overshot days are actually moving further up. So next year, South Africa might be on the 16th of June, or even in May. We see that we are using too many resources. Hence, we also need to look at a different economic approach, um, which we put forward as a circular economy. And someone already said in the poll is that there are three core principles to the circular economy. So is designing out waste and pollution. So waste, yes, is an important part of circularity and circular thinking, but it's also about keeping products and materials in use, and I would say at its highest value as possible. Regenerating natural systems is another one. And within the linear economy, which I'm going to break down a little bit more in a second, UNDP or UNIP has actually created this really nice graph around, we have the extraction, production, the use, and end of use. And within that, they have created the circularity loops. So what you really want to do with inner circularity is, um, circularity thinking and mindset is to reduce, and then then to actually reuse. So those are really the inner loops that you want to create from the get-go, from a product design, from a systems design perspective. If you then extend the loops a little bit, you are actually starting to look at repair, refurbish, and remanufacturing. Repair and refurbish can also be built in during the product design phase and the systems design phase. And only at the end of use, you really are looking at repurpose and recycle. So yes, recycle is part of a circular economy, but it's not high up on the R ladder. So, and I think that's what we also really want to bring across: circularity is a systems approach, and it's not just a waste management terminology. Okay.

So you have circularity, and as I said, you do want to reduce by design, which is this orange, um, cycle, and is quite key to the circular economy. What is important in a circular economy are the materials, right? Energy, water, biodiversity. But there is one part that is missing, and that we have always advocating for, is actually the social dimension and people. So instead of just looking at the classical butterfly diagram from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, from a technical nutrient cycle and the biological cycle, we are actually really centering the human in the middle, because we do need to create equitable and inclusive societies in a circular economy. Otherwise, repeating the same system as we have done in a linear economy. Looking at South Africa, we are around about 6% circular. And the study was conducted by, um, Professor Haroon Bloch-Nitz, um, in collaboration with an Austrian university, and they have done this really beautiful material flow diagram that shows that we are very, um, extracting-focused society as such, and hence we are only 7% circular. Um, the Circularity Gap Report on a global level shows that we're around about 7.2% circular. What we actually see is that since 2019, we have decreased our circularity on a global scale. So we were at 9% in 2018, and we have actually decreased that. And that is obviously then also linked to the, um, overview slide that I showed you on resource extraction. So we have in South Africa 94% resource inefficiencies, which means there are 94% opportunities in the system as well, um, which is linked to global competitiveness, creating resource security for the country, taking care of critical, um, sectors such as energy and water, creating fair and equitable jobs, increasing profits, but more so also improved living conditions and health benefits, as well as conserving the unique environment that South Africa actually has to offer. Looking at mining, Doria already mentioned it's a vital sector in South Africa. It's actually contributing 8% to our GDP, even though that has decreased over the last decades, and it employs a number of people. And it's not just the people that are employed, but also the secondary industries that are built around the mine sites, which we need to keep in mind. Most of you will know what the challenges are around mining. We know that there are health and work conditions constraints or challenges in the systems. We know that from an environmental perspective, it's very extractive. We are destructing an ecosystem there, acid mine drainage, there's air pollution. And then obviously, from an economic perspective, we are exporting, we are very export-oriented. Um, so how can circularity change this? And I think here the key questions are also to ask is to understand which critical materials and minerals are required for the country's own development. And I am saying this, and I've put this on the right-hand side, is actually because the European Union knows exactly what they need on critical raw materials to transition to net zero, um, over the coming decades, and they have actually just implemented a critical raw materials act as well. We do also have key benefits of actually housing a lot of reserves of minerals and metals, and we do have quite a bit of R&D going on around, for example, electrolyzers, fuel cells, which is linked to green hydrogen. So South Africa has the potential to create a niche on its own. But what we also need to consider, South Africa obviously is not acting in a silent system. South Africa is acting in a global system, right? And even though the Platinum Group Metals, um, and in particular rhodium, as where was extremely valuable, um, a few, well, until last year, um, because it was used in the fiberglass production, which China is dominating on a global scale, um, but what we have seen is that China, because of the expensive, or because of the price of rhodium, they have actually changed recipes around. So they're not using as much rhodium anymore within the fiberglass production, meaning also that the price has dropped. So South Africa also needs to be aware of what is happening on a global scale, so that we are actually implementing very smart strategies that can then also benefit the manufacturing sector, which we're going to dive into a bit deeper in the next webinar. So concluding my presentation, I'm going to launch the next poll, and that is actually asking you which circularity principles have you applied in your own field. So I'm just going to stop sharing my slide and just launch the next poll, which should come up on your screen just now.

Okay, I can see that lots of people are coming in. We still have around about 30 people to go, so please click, um, the poll. I would like that everyone actually is able to fill it in as well. Okay, almost everyone has filled it in. Let me give you another 10 seconds. Just going to end the poll and then share the results. I think they should now show up on your screen as well, if I'm not mistaken. Perfect. So I think we see again, like in the agriculture webinar, actually quite a nice spread around that designing out waste and pollution is is quite a key, um, activity that we see within the different organizations. But what I always love to see is also that there is part of benefiting all members of society. Um, so that's, that's actually really nice to see. Interesting as well, around product design, keeping materials at their highest value is actually the lowest rate by our participants. So I think there is quite a lot of opportunities in the system to look at, um, product design, systems design, service designs, and different, um, circular economy business models. I'm going to stop sharing and I will go back to the PowerPoint. Wonderful.

So, um, our next speaker, or our first speaker, actually, is, um, Miss Mrs. Omaya Khan. Um, she's currently a senior researcher in mining at the CSIR. Her portfolio includes projects on critical minerals, global competitiveness, circular economy, sustainable development goals in the mining sector, and people-centered mining modernization. Before joining the CSIR, Somaya worked as an engineering geologist in civil engineering and rock engineering consulting firms, where she had the opportunity to visit many mining operations within the African continent, Europe, and Asia. So Maya, it's wonderful to have you on board, and, um, the floor is yours.

Thank you so much, Katherina. Share the screen. Perfect. Thank you. All right. Um, good afternoon, everyone, and thank you again, Katherina, for this opportunity. I will be talking about the circular economy opportunities for the mining sector, as well as, um, some of the challenges associated with their adoption. So I will briefly touch on the definition and principles, although that's already been covered, uh, earlier on. Um, I'll also talk about the significance of circular economy in the sector, then delve into the opportunities, followed by the role of technology, collaboration, and, um, regulatory frameworks. I will then conclude with some of the challenges. So I'm going to actually skip the definition and save a few minutes. But I just want to touch on the fact that in mining, early concepts of circular economy placed mining outside of the loop, so as shown at the on the figure at the bottom here. However, recent studies have shown that circular economy has a lot to offer the mining sector through sustainable resource use, and this includes the creation of alternate business models. So, for example, if we look at mineral leasing models as opposed to mineral sales, it, uh, provides a good opportunity for the mining industry. So the three principles are designing out waste and pollution, keeping materials in use, and regenerating natural systems. I'll go into detail with these when we get to the circular economy opportunities, um, section.

So you may have heard about critical minerals. There seems to be a global scramble for these critical minerals, and this is largely driven by the shift away from fossil fuels towards more cleaner and renewable energy sources for climate change mitigation. So, what this means is that technologies will be needed to, um, support this transition, and critical minerals are needed to actually develop these technologies. So, currently, there is a global demand for these critical minerals, but as we know, minerals are a finite resource, a finite resource which can eventually be depleted. So, how does a circular economy fit into all of this? It offers a model for us to potentially bridge the gap between high demand of these critical minerals and the supply shortage, um, by promoting reducing, reusing, um, repurposing of these, um, minerals and metals. So, instead of discarding the product or metals after, after it has reached its supposed end of life, we can keep this product in use for as long as possible through circular practices. So, to put things into perspective, um, as at 2020, our appetite for resources required about 1.7 Earths to, um, fulfill our demands. And if we continue in the same way that they are, by mainly primary mineral extraction, then we will need about three Earths to meet our resource demands. So, hence, that just emphasizes the importance of circularity when it comes to, um, mining.

So, between 2021 and 2023, the CSIR undertook a multisectoral circular economy study, which was led by Professor Linda Godfrey, and this study involved various thematic areas within the CSIR, including mining. The objective of the mining area study was to determine if resource scarcity is a driver for the country to transition to a circular economy, and also we explored some of the circular economy opportunities for the mining sector. So, my next three slides will focus on these, um, opportunities that we found in the study. The opportunities are categorized according to the three principles. The first being designing out waste. So, I'll just touch on a few of them shown here. For example, increased ore extraction efficiency and precision could be impactful because it tackles waste at, at the source of, uh, generation. So, some examples of these are coarse particle recovery, bulk ore sorting, both of which reduce water and energy consumption, and this is being looked at by Anglo American currently. Also, things like in-situ mining through leaching or solution mining is another example where the ore is targeted specifically and thereby reducing the waste that, uh, that's generated. Water recovery and recycling is crucial to address water scarcity issues in the country, and this could be done through, um, processes such as dry mineral processing, evaporation management, as well as dry stacking of tailings. Um, I think this is being done in, uh, South America by Anglo, but I don't think it's been, uh, picked up in South Africa currently. So this is one of the areas to possibly investigate further. Um, so when it comes to biotechnology or biomimicry, this is used to recover metals from, uh, cell phones, etc., through, uh, bioleaching processes where bacteria and microorganisms are used to, uh, process minerals. Then another important one here is the substitution of, uh, raw materials, and an example of this is thiosulfate leaching, which is an alternative to cyanide in gold processing. Another one, uh, is lab-grown diamonds, which is used as a substitute for natural diamonds, but I know the females wouldn't be too happy about this, we want the real stuff.

The second principle presents more of the low-hanging fruit for the mining sector. A lot of these initiatives are currently happening at mines. So, most of these opportunities are not new, and they might not necessarily be, uh, done under a banner of a circular economy. It might be done purely from a waste management perspective, but the fact is, these things are currently happening but need to be scaled up. And one of the most common ones here is the reuse and repurposing of waste, example, backfilling of waste rock into open-cast mines, using aggregates and waste rock for construction material, as well as recycling of tires. Also, the use of, uh, tailings is important for, um, construction material. Uh, another one is metal recycling of electronic scrap, which probably goes hand in hand with urban mining of e-waste. Processing of secondary metals also involves melting of scrap in combination with primary concentrates to produce valuable metals. Remining of tailings, this gives the mining industry an opportunity to convert legacy mines into, uh, alternate economies, as well as creating employment, um, through, uh, this waste. We also have zero waste to landfill strategies. There's a success story by Kumba Iron Ore, which have embarked on this journey, and then producing fly ash geopolymers. This is actually an environmentally friendly alternative to the production of cement for the construction industry.

So, when it comes to the third principle of regenerating natural systems, Goldfields Deep Mine constructed a 50-megawatt solar plant to partially mitigate the impacts of load shedding, and the benefits of this was a 24% cost saving in electricity for the company, as well as a reduction in carbon emissions, which is, uh, obviously an environmental benefit. Also, the green hydrogen economy has huge potential for South Africa. There's the, uh, project that's currently being undertaken in the country, and the green hydrogen economy could also increase the demand for, uh, platinum, and this, I think, emphasizes the importance of, um, circular initiatives in the Platinum Group Metal industry. His repurposing of post-mining landscapes. So, examples of these could be, um, using mined-out land for other purposes, such as converting them to educational training centers, also for tourist attractions. Gold Reef City is a good example of this, as well as the Big Hole in Kimberly, and also for, uh, use in agriculture. An example of this is the wheat pilot project in, um, Mpumalanga. Okay. Another interesting one is the eradication of alien invasives. The Impact Catalyst in the CSIR undertook initiatives to remove alien invasive plants from around mines, and a study found that actually between 3 to 6% of water could be released when these plants are removed from around mines, and this could also benefit communities. In addition to the water, um, benefit, the plants can also be used to make energy pellets for use in mining communities, and, um, this is a cost-effective way for energy and is a replacement for the use of paraffin, which is, um, unsafe.

So, if you look at, um, technology that could enhance circularity, this is basically looking at the previous slides from a different angle and just highlighting the technologies that could specifically be used or, um, further research. It includes automation and robotic equipment, which can reduce human error, improve safety, as well as optimize resource extraction, and these include remote sensing and autonomous equipment. In terms of mineral processing, using microorganisms to extract metals from ore can enhance recovery and reduce environmental impact of traditional processing methods. I touched on this, uh, earlier when I spoke about, uh, biotechnology. Also, using advanced technologies to characterize and sort mining waste will be able to help us identify valuable materials for recycling and reuse. Can also look at things like, uh, waste-to-energy technologies, as well as carbon capture. Again, um, I think water management is important because of our water scarcity issues. So, advanced water treatment technologies can reduce environmental impacts of, um, mining operations, as well as enhance, um, recycled water. Waste water. And then the use of data analytics can be used to, uh, predict equipment failures, schedule, uh, maintenance more proactively, and this could reduce downtime as well as, uh, waste. Leveraging data analytics to improve, uh, supply chain efficiency is also another good opportunity, which can thereby reduce transportation costs and, uh, emissions associated with, uh, transportation.

So, what is the role of collaboration in advancing a circular economy? So, we know that the government, industry, and civil society has a huge role to play in this transition. For example, government could embark on awareness programs for civil society. So, I think a circular economy could be embedded into school curriculums. It needs to become a way of life and not necessarily confined to particular sectors or industries. Um, through education and training, industries could provide, uh, training for employees, and encourage them to come up with ideas, uh, for new initiatives and possible projects. In terms of community engagement and participation, through partnerships between government and industry, community programs could be developed to empower communities and allow them to be included into this transition. And I think this can be done by including circular aspects in shared value strategies that mining companies, um, should be implementing. In terms of investment and incentives, uh, governments could provide incentives for circular economy projects or even funding for research and development in the space to develop new technologies, as well as investigate different and novel processes to enhance circularity. And, uh, again, they could be open calls for innovation from the public, maybe in terms of competitions. Resource, uh, sharing. So, um, if you look at shared economies, this can be promoted by practicing at all levels, example, through sharing of transport by mine employees, sharing of infrastructure, equipment, and underused assets by different mining companies within the same town. So, policy development also has a huge role to play in promoting, um, circularity, and governments could create enabling policies and regulations that just improve on what we already have, and this can be done through consultation with industry and, um, the public.

So, if we look at our regulatory framework, the South African mining sector has a relatively strong one already. The DMRE promotes, um, the regulations of mining and mineral sector, and their goal is to promote, uh, economic growth, social prosperity, as well as environmental sustainability. So, um, the mining sector is mainly regulated by the MPRDA, which is the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, and this act includes aspects relating to exploration, mining rights and permits, social and labor issues, some environmental, uh, management aspects, as well as ownership and control aspects. The Mine Health and Safety Act, as the name suggests, deals with aspects relating to health and safety, um, in the workplace. Regarding environmental management legislation, it requires that every mining company set aside rehabilitation and remediation funds at the start of a mining project. So, this falls under the National Environmental Management Act. We also have the Mining Charter, which is a policy instrument, and this specifically details, uh, measurable targets for the industry, and it actually aims to facilitate a transformation and sustainable development and growth of the industry. And more recently, the Department of Science and Innovation have launched the SAKI, South African Circular Minerals and Metals Initiative, which is hosted by the Mandela Mining Precinct. And this initiative essentially aims to embed circular economy into our existing research, development, and innovation system for the mining sector. So, apart from, um, the SAKI, the existing legislation and policies provide a good foundation, but there is potential for strengthening and promoting circularity to support the transition. And another important point that I want to make is that although we do have a good regulatory framework, the issues are mainly around implementation and compliance, and perhaps what's needed is a mindset change and a culture shift to, uh, address this broader issue.

So, moving on to the challenges to implementing and adopting circularity in the sector. The first one is the sheer huge volume of waste that's generated by mining. This is the mineral waste in the form of tailings and waste rock. In our study that we undertook, we found that the current rate of reuse and repurposing is much lower than the rate at which the waste is generated. Secondly, in terms of technological constraints, um, one of our stakeholders indicated that an example of this is the segregation of hazardous and non-hazardous waste, which is a huge challenge and hinders recycling efforts. So, we do need more RDI when it comes to, uh, technology development. We also found that although pockets of circular economy interventions have been adopted across the mining sector, the adoption has has not been at a scale large enough to make a meaningful impact, and this was a common finding across the different sectors and thematic areas of the CSIR circular economy project. Also, a large-scale rollout of circular economy solutions in the mining sector could be hindered by the requirement for huge investment that's associated with some of the interventions, specifically the first and the third principle, and these are your high, high impact, um, interventions. And the study also found that sustainable circularity of the mining industry requires a collaborative approach among the different stakeholders, and the process and the transition to circular economy should be underpinned by, uh, customized incentives and a strong legislative framework or enhancement thereof.

So, just to some of the key messages: Firstly, a circular economy can provide opportunities for the mining sector, including those aligned with the three principles, as well as opportunities for new business models. Then, the most implementable circular economy opportunities are those, uh, aligned with the second principle of keeping materials in use. And as I mentioned, many mining companies are already implementing, uh, these practices. Although some of the opportunities, uh, within this principle are not new concepts, there are still challenges that remain when it comes to implementation of these initiatives, and the challenges are mainly around operational and financial, uh, constraints, and this suggests the need for RDI that focuses on these, uh, issues. The high impact opportunities aligned with the first and the third principle, uh, of circular economy are more difficult to implement, as they require large investments. And even though some mining companies adopt, uh, circular economy principles, the interventions need to be scaled up to make a meaningful impact. And finally, circularity in mining could be advanced through technological innovation, strengthened collaboration between government, industry, and civil society, as well as reviews and enhancements to policies, uh, and legislation to embed circular economy within them. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Somaya. Really well done. I love that you touched on that circularity shouldn't be confined to one sector, but you also said that it, it requires a mindset change, and I think that's a really key highlight for me that you brought forward, um, and that we actually include the mining sector in the discussion, which has predominantly been excluded previously. So thank you so much for those words. I'm just quickly going to, um, share my presentation again for the next speaker that we have, who was actually already partially or passively mentioned. Um, so I'm going to introduce Julie Cage. She's an environmental scientist and sustainability practitioner by qualification. Julie has worked in, with, and against the mining industry for 35 years. She consciously shifted her career to focus on people's behaviors, values, decision-making processes, and creativity, as these are the roots of environmental, economic, and social outcomes of business and research. Following 16 years working independently, she joined the Mandela Mining Precinct as the Executive Director a year ago. So we have Julie online, who is actually working on the South African Circular Minerals and Metals Initiative. And, yeah, I'm very excited to learn more about it. Julie, the floor is yours.

Thank you very much, Karina, and, uh, good afternoon, everyone. Please forgive my, um, technical incapacity on Zoom. I'm much more used to Teams, so, uh, let me just share my presentation. Can everybody see the right, no notes showing? No notes. Thank you very much. So, um, I'm very grateful for this opportunity to share both what the MMP is doing, as well as on the South African Circular Minerals and Metals Initiative. And I think right up front, it's so important that we acknowledge that mining as an activity is not sustainable. Minerals and metals are. And that needs to be, um, very conscious in our, uh, sorry, very upfront in our consciousness when we're talking about circularity as well. And, um, I'm not for a moment suggesting that mining should be shut down, uh, for, I would hope, very obvious reasons. But I think one of the issues that we need to address is looking at the different socio-economic and political realities of circularity, how we apply it, where we apply it, because, as you heard, Somaya is busy working on the critical minerals, and even just that definition of what is a critical mineral needs to take into account the realities of the South African, um, socio-economic and environmental status. So, very often, the coal industry is understandably, um, criticized for its role in the in, uh, the carbon footprint. And yet, if we were to shut down the coal sector, you know, immediately the social, environmental, and economic, uh, consequences of that would be catastrophic, uh, for people, for the country. And so we need to be very careful how we define, how we use of language, and, and the reason I'm talking about that is it's important when we start to talk about circularity. So, in just preparing some of the, the work that we're doing under SAKI, um, I came across this definition which I hadn't seen before, and forgive me, I'm fairly new actually, not into the circularity conversation as such, but certainly circularity and mining. And this definition of shift, grow, and build countries. Where the build countries are those that really, how most of the world's populations have very limited options for, um, social and economic development. The grow countries, which is where K, South Africa, where we need, they say prioritize material-efficient development pathways, which I think dovetails very nicely with what Somaya said. And then the shift countries are, I guess, what we would typically call the, um, what used to be called the first world or the highly developed countries, where most of the demand comes from. And I know when I was lecturing on sustainability and ethics and governance, and look, this is a good few years ago, so the stats would have changed, but I remember then the statistic was that if we all lived like the average American, whatever that is, we would need five Earths in terms of resource consumption. If we all lived like the average person in India, we would only need half an Earth, which is just stunning. Because the accusation is often, while it's a poor, you know, there's too many poor people, there's too many people. But it's also the socio-economic realities. And what circular, what a grow country needs in terms of mining and circularity, I just put there in that big red block: we need to share. And here I've used the word coopetition. I know it's a little bit of a buzzword, but we are working within a capitalist system, and a capitalist system thrives on competition, but there are ways of cooperating and competing at the same time. I don't know if anyone remembers during the height of COVID, we had, um, you know, um, I think it was 3M and was it Ford or GE? Cooper. They are, uh, absolute, uh, competitors in under normal circumstances, but they put down that that blend and started cooperating to produce ventilators. And so there are options to be both collaborators and competitors, depending what we're talking about, and to share part of the mining journey. When I first, so I first went underground as a, as a first-year student back in 1987, long time ago. And, um, back then, and even when I started working in the sector in the early 90s, safety was seen as a competitive advantage, and no one shared any information on how they were addressing safety. Today, safety is open book and it's openly accessible. And so we need to get to that space to do with environmental stuff as well. There's also options for, you know, moving to the leasing model of business. Now, this would be very interesting in mining, and I'm not going to preempt the research work that we're doing, but, you know, changing ownership and business models and sharing resources. I think that opens a lot of opportunity, especially for, be it microenterprises or communities. Reusing, I'll talk about some of these ideas, repairing, repurposing, refurbishing, and recycling. And I will talk about that at the end of my talk. But the primary, um, driver here, if one has to sell circularity in the mining sector, which is sometimes quite a hard discussion to have, is that, um, in the work that the CSIR did in that report, I mean, some of the minerals that we have here in South Africa have less than 50 years worth of economic life left. We cannot access what we do not have. And so using the words like resource security is sometimes a way simply to get people to listen to the conversation about circularity in mining. And, uh, right.

So, I recognize fully that this is in three pillars, and I really do need to redraw this diagram, but it was, uh, the way we put it together. So, the South African Circular Minerals and Metals Initiative is, um, as I said, under the DSI and under the ambit of Circular Innovation South Africa, which is, as you know, Professor Linda Godfrey. And what we are looking at, in very, very early days, is to take the research agenda and, sorry, I meant to say, the Mandela Mining Precinct is a public-private partnership between the Department of Science and Innovation and the Minerals Council of South Africa. They are our co-funders, where, uh, government, for every two Rand, government provides, the industry provides one Rand. And the reason for that is that industry research is very heavily funded, but we don't do the research ourselves. We facilitate it with a network of collaborators. So, we're a very, very small team trying to create impact out in the sector by, by using a collaborative network. And so, part of our role, um, in SAKI, is to serve this hub-and-spoke model. In other words, we will be the hub for getting the research going and to, um, channel the funding for the research, but we will be looking for research entities, universities, science councils to do this work. And part of the drive is to move away from this exclusive focus on waste, because that is typically where, um, the mining sector focuses in circularity, but it's a learning journey. And what we are proposing as a model, and as I said, we will redo it, is redraw it, is we can have circularity in availability. So we're calling that circularity at the base, in other words, where are minerals and metals available? It's not only underground. When I was writing a chapter for the Royal Society of Chemistry in about 2012 on gold, which there was a book called Materials for a Sustainable Future, um, the many people estimate that there is more gold above ground already than underground. But most of it, and I can't remember the statistic, but most of it sits in reserve bank vaults, being moved around as, you know, one country borrows money from another country. So for me, as a non-economist, that's just quite a bizarre picture, but it's the way the economy works. And so we are saying we need to be more, um, innovative in how we look for availability. And so that comes down to mapping the resource base, not only looking at the ore body, but looking at, for example, tailings, waste, etc. Then we're looking at circularity at the point of extraction, which is what we're calling circularity at the face. It's much of what, um, Somaya has talked about, the, the simple, although

Um, that, that's a bit of a, um, Moma is those issues like lower water use, lower energy use, um, efficiencies of reclamation, efficiencies of extraction. So, for example, some of the work that the Mandela Man Precinct is doing is looking at what they, what the two programs, longevity of current mines and advanced ore body knowledge are. Look at what they call precision mining. How do we use technology to mine only the ore seam so that there is no waste produced? I mean, that's a big, big, big task, but it's, that's the vision.

And I'll share an even bigger vision. So we're looking at extract, um, circularity in extraction, and then the third aspect of it will be circularity in use, which is one, the typical, um, waste, uh, mining of waste, urban mining, things like that. So that is, those are the three pillars or what will be a circle of the South African circular metals and, and, um, minerals initiative. And this is just a very brief map. We are going to do this in a highly collaborative way. And, and I'm going to ask everybody on this call and share with your networks. We are running the first stakeholder webinar on the 24th of October from 9:30 to 12:30. And in that, we are asking people to share what are you doing in the space? And then we're going to be asking a bunch of questions as well to help guide the research agenda. And the ultimate outcome of this year's work is to have a sub-strategy for science, technology, and innovation in circularity for the South African mining industry. And I do want to note that that doesn't ne, won't necessarily be translatable to everywhere else in the world because it is very context-specific. And I'll talk a bit more about that.

So these are just some of the, um, partners that we're currently looking at, but we will be going out on an open call as well to make sure that we identify who's doing what. Because just this morning, there was an email that came through going, "Hang on, there is so much happening in the space, and there's, uh, already the, the ramp-up of interest is vast, and, um, there's quite a bit of duplication happening." So I'm hoping that we can be part of coordinating everything, not to take away from anyone, but just to, you know, make sure that we, we develop a coordinated approach.

And then what I'd like to share, this is very, very, very exciting, is we, myself and, and Prof Godfrey, talked to the Finnish Geological Society, and they've come up with this model. And their model is everything in black. Uh, what I added is everything in sort of the RNG, gold. And they have this model of, instead of just mapping the ore body value as a, as a, m or when you discover an ore body, what happens if we map what is of value in the waste rock in situ and create a digital twin? So, and that would be very context-specific. But I don't want to go on forever. But the principle being, can we extract the value from what would become waste rock in situ? And then create these sideline, and that in Soma's diagram, you know, those, those recirculating arrows, sideline industries within that, that area to make use of those valuable, um, elements, whatever they are in the waste rock?

And for me, that means we have to really change the business model and include what in mining terms would be called resource valorization, but really about what is the value of the resources in that area. And in my mind, I'm actually seeing a mapping of all resources. You know, are there forests there that might be, um, you know, uh, a sustainable use or sustainable value generation? Are there rivers? Is there agriculture? So that instead of only mapping ore body, we map the entire resource base. And in my mind, I'm beginning to see a, almost what I'm, I'm calling, it's, and it's just me, so please, this is not, um, an official position. For me, I can imagine a resource development zone. But then there needs to be this incredibly detailed and almost real-time linkage with social and labor plans of all the mines in the area, as well as the local economic development plans for the various municipalities. So that we get this really leveraged, innovative way of generating value for people, while minimizing environmental impacts.

I'm not going to go through the entire, um, the entire flow, and it very much is in development. These are just ideas. But for me, that presents such an opportunity for minimizing, for that collaborative approach that was talked about, because this, the mining sector can't do it alone. I mean, um, I think somebody mentioned policy, oh, sorry, there was someone who posted that paper in the chat about how policy, uh, and legislation impacts, uh, circularity. So I can share that. 25 years ago, when I was in a corporate mining job, there was a colleague of mine who had an idea. There was a tailings dam, oh, a waste rock dump, sorry. And close by was an abattoir. And he had the idea to take the abattoir waste, process it so it was job creation, and then get it to be, um, neutral and be used in, as fertilizer for the, the waste rock. And unfortunately, the legislative environment dictated that waste to be hazardous waste, no matter how it was treated. And therefore, that lovely circular solution couldn't be implemented. And those sorts of things, um, you know, maintain.

So one of the areas that we have as a research focus is real-time information management systems. That talks very much to this data. What are we collecting? Where is it going? How are we collecting it? To what is it linked? And we're very excited that for the first time ever, um, at the test mine that we have there, is a, a vendor-agnostic 5G system being put in, where, um, widgets from anybody can be, can have, uh, project data to this, um, framework and collect it. And we see that as a start of a very, very exciting development in, in mining for safety, for health, for environmental issues, for circularity. I mean, imagine if there was, and I know I'm going way down the line, but imagine if there was a circularity resource app, you know, per region, where as people are doing things, it just updates, updates, updates, and people can start to see what's happening in almost real-time. It would be really, really, um, exciting and interesting.

And then, so before I go on to that, I just wanted to touch on that technology point that, um, Michelle, I think you raised. Believe me, I know you said it's an elephant in the room, but believe me, we are talking about it day in and day out. So the reality is, the technology development has always displaced jobs. It doesn't always replace them. And one of our research programs, the successful application of technology centered around people, is an integrating program that cuts across our technology, um, focused programs and is looking, um, part in parts. One of the, the aspects of the research is how, um, how do we bring people into that equation of technology development? What are the new skills that we need? And I think the CSR is already busy, um, under the National Cleaner Production Center, looking at creating a skills development center for circularity, um, in general. But I think they're also looking at in mining. We are, um, you know, creating a very strong relationship with the Mining Qualifications Authority to talk about exactly these kinds of things. That if there is technology that, for example, an automation technology that indeed might, um, replace certain levels of jobs, what are the opportunities? And I mean, the opportunities have to be in the just transition, in, um, circularity, because that is a reality that is going to completely shape the, um, minerals and metal sector.

One, one example of where, um, a technology innovation has created jobs is one of our flagship, um, technologies, which is called the Isidingo Drill. And it was a challenge that we put out to the researchers to develop a more environmentally friendly, human-friendly, um, higher efficiency drill for the mining sector. And the ultimate outcome was a drill that is 50% lighter, and therefore could be used by women. And can be used by women. I think it uses 50% less water, and I can't remember if it's 25 or 30% less energy. So I mean, in that, that's a job creation space. So we need to be very cognizant, and we believe we are, you know, people-centric in our research, and South Africa-centric, to say, what can we do to contribute? Because, um, the mandate of the Mand money Precinct is to facilitate and support what's called the subur, um, strategy. It's the South African Mining Research Development, um, and Innovation Strategy in support of a modernizing mining sector. And the reality is, no mine will ever be modernized because innovation is constantly happening. And so we have to keep, almost ahead of that.

And so one of the things that we're actually proposing in our strategy, and we haven't got permission yet, but it's in the strategy update for October, is that we, in fact, move that real-time information management systems program from being a sort of narrowly focused program to a portfolio that looks at the digital and circular economies, because they are so interdependent going forward. And for me, that creates a lot of opportunity for this, um, the innovation around technology that serves people and job creation, as well as serving environmental and economic, uh, benefits.

I'm conscious of time, so I just wanted to share two examples. DRD Ergo is a very, very old mining company, I think it's 130 years old. But interestingly enough, they no longer dig holes. Their entire business model is about reclaiming existing waste. And I just cut a few items from from their report that they issued last month. It's their 2023, um, or was this their their quarterly results? I can't remember. So they are transitioning to renewable energy. They, um, have a very interesting human-centered care, um, policy, which I haven't, uh, cited here. They are looking at, um, what's called creating optionality, which is another way that circularity can, can come in, expand capacity, and pursuing collaboration. They are one of the most open, um, mining companies that I've experienced. And then they are looking at regenerative practices through recovery, processing, and rehab, and to literally clean up the land and make it available for other, other, um, purposes.

And I just cut a few of their stats. Over 10 years, they've decreased their electricity usage by 17%. Now, that might not sound a lot, but when one understands the electricity usage of a mine, that is a phenomenal amount of energy being saved. They've decreased potable water by 83%. They have spent 530 million, um, on specifically, that was one item. And they have rated in terms of tailings, 477 hectares. I also cut some of the, um, stats. So they have a solar project. And in 2024, it's fedal will take facility generated 13 million kilowatt hours, which is 10% of Ugo's consumption. And they anticipate by next year, it'll contribute about 50% of Ugo's energy consumption. And that will reduce the cost by 9 to 15 Rand per ton. And they are looking at a capital injection of 3.5 billion next year. So you can see that the industry is taking this seriously. And I must say, as with any industry, they are the leaders, and there are the laggards. There are those who are really striving to change. There are those who are resistant. And, um, I often use the phrase, "We cannot let perfection assassinate progress." And we just led the progress that's happening, and still work very, very hard to fix what is not yet right.

So at this point, I'd like to ask, um, sorry, is it Cara, to just share that ICM video? I thought that it's two minutes well spent. Yes, one moment, let me just grab that. That. So this is the International Council on Mining and Metals, and what they're doing in the circularity space.

Thanks. Metals and minerals, our future depends on these natural resources. Just to reach Net Zero by 2050, we need an estimated 3 billion tons of metal, the equivalent of around 300,000 Eiffel Towers. Even more is required for the construction of sustainable cities, industries, and infrastructure. To meet demand, we need to reimagine how we supply and consume materials by adopting circular principles that identify and retain the value of the materials we depend on every day. This means creating the right conditions for the recovery of durable materials at scale. But we cannot rely on recycling alone if we are to keep pace with the clean energy transition. How we mine today is just as important as what we do with the materials we use tomorrow. At the mine, it, we are accelerating the adoption of circular systems that establish processes that minimize, reuse, and ultimately eliminate all aspects of waste. This starts with minimizing energy usage and securing renewable sources of electricity, reducing tailings production and recycling water, and designing of activities to promote the prosperity of land and communities in and around the mine site. ICM members are already on this urgent journey. We call this mining with principles. And you can be part of it. Collaborate with us to build a safe, just, and sustainable world.

Thank you very much for sharing that. Um, and just my last slide, trying to see where I am, right? Can everybody see that? It's now in the, um, notes, so you wouldn't just need to switch. Okay, sorry about that. Perfect. Is that, is that okay now? Thank you. Excellent. Thank you. And, um, I'm not going to go into great detail. These are our current, um, research programs. But as I said, we are actually looking at moving more to our portfolio of larger integrated approach to our research. But you will get this. Um, but I actually wanted to go back a couple of slides just in closing. You know, this model, I was sharing the idea with a mining company the other day, and, you know, especially in terms of SMME development. I can just imagine, um, people talk about, uh, small and micro enterprises for in things like assembly plants and manufacturing. But can you imagine the opportunities in mining if we start disassembly plants? Because imagine a mining vehicle, and those things are huge, being taken apart bit by bit in a well-planned, um, network linked to the local economic and environmental and social conditions. Because that, uh, you know, the skills needed for that are very much lower than skills necessarily may be needed in mining. And so I think there's some real opportunities that we need to explore in this research process for, um, you know, assembly plants, but also disassembly plants, um, for job creation and environmental protection and things like that.

And then, okay, I think, yeah, that was it. I'm very happy to take any questions or you can be in contact afterwards. Thank you.

Thanks, Julie. I think there's so much food for thought, actually. So I also just need to digest it. I love that you bring in a digital twin. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. One last thing. It's a reality of mining that I think people forget. So let's take that Isidingo Drill that we managed to, um, initiate and actually support to commercialization. The capital investment cycles of mining houses are very long. So although the drill was produced quite a few years ago, 500 have been bought to date. Because if a mine has just made a major capital investment in, be it equipment or, you know, a, be, sorry, drills or a fleet of vehicles or something, just because something much better, much cheaper, and much more environmentally and socially acceptable comes along, their capital investment timing won't allow them to adopt that immediately. And I saw the comment about the legislative time frames in terms of waste exclusion process. It's, it's a big reality as well for the sector. So I just wanted to raise that as one of the realities in terms of adoption, um, of circularity technology and principles in mining. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Julie. Yeah, I think it does also speak to how companies and governments are functioning and being agile towards the change that we are seeing. I love the digital twin, um, example that you're actually putting forward. We also seated in eco-industrial park, so there's lots of technology and innovation that we can actually use in different sectors to, um, amplify and accelerate the circularity. So now we are coming to our next speaker, um, um, Prudence Simena. She is, um, with Sanalo, and it is an EST, an established beneficiation business based in eMalahleni, Mpumalanga Province. Prudence is the Circ, the CEO of, um, Sanalo. And we offic, they are officially registered as a private business in 2020, 9, 2019, um, and they are employing around about 13 people on a, a full-time basis. I'm really excited to actually have Prudence on the call today because we crossed paths previously, and I'm really, really keen to hear what they actually doing with, um, the ash beneficiation, um, in South Africa. So Prudence, over to you.

Okay, um, good afternoon and thank you so much, Catherine. Pretty excited to be part of, um, this session today. Um, I'm going to just, tell me if you can see my screen. Yes. And if you just go into presenter mode, then that's perfect. There we go. All right, fantastic. So, as it's mentioned, um, I, our company name is called Sanalo, um, and it is based. So I'm, I'm always very excited to be sharing about, um, this because for me, it's very close to heart. I am born and bred here in eMalahleni. So when we talk about circularity, and we talk about, um, coal waste and beneficiation and all of that, and we talk about the edge dumps, you are speaking my language. So I was saying to someone, the, the funny part is, growing up, we actually used to argue with people who would say, in eMalahleni, we don't have mountains, because as far as I'm concerned, we had so many mountains. Some of them were actually white, and we didn't know that that was not a mountain, um, that, that is God-made. That was simply because of the minerals that get dug out of our surrounding, because everybody is excited about, um, the coal that we provide to, to, to everybody else.

So, um, within the circular economy, so maybe I should just also just give you a little bit of a briefing from our side. Is Sanalo, so Sanalo is a coal ash beneficiation business. And, um, as, um, as it has been mentioned, we're ready to start in 2019, officially. But I'd like to just take you back a little bit about a study, obviously, that surfaces or that, um, that is the foundation of what we do. So, um, we do know that, um, South Africa actually is the highest coal producer in the continent, um, and it's the seventh largest in the world. So that tells you how many holes we've got around us. And if you look at eMalahleni, um, which is my hometown, we've got just about seven, if I'm not lying, around about six, seven power stations within the 100-kilometer radius. So, um, and, uh, this is where most of this coal is stuck out. And, um, with the coal as well, you would know that about 50 million tons of that, which is, uh, which lands up in, in, in, in ash. Ash waste is only 10% of that 50 million tons that is produced is recycled. And that is what really informed the interest of Sanalo in this coal ash beneficiation.

Um, so we started this quite a while ago. Um, we thought we could just take the ash, mix it, get another product, and then off we go, you know? Little did we know that the blend was not mixing, and it was showing us flames. So we realized that there needs to be more to it. So one day, I was sitting in class, um, at an institution which I won't mention for today. So I'm sitting in, and someone mentioned this, that, um, they work for a company called CSIR, which I've never seen before, or heard about, or met anybody from CSIR. And CSIR is a research institute in South Africa. It's the biggest state-owned research institute, and they've got technologies on the shelf. Um, and one of the technologies that they also just, um, put on the shelf, or they're working on, is geopolymer. And that is for ash beneficiation. My eyes, my goodness, I was like, "What, what are you talking about?" Because that's exactly where we're at, right? We are in the manufacturing space, we are looking for technology that can blend with the aggregates that we've got. And that's how the conversation started.

So, um, we started these conversations with CSIR quite a while ago, um, and they are, they are the inventors of the technology that we use, which is geopolymer. And I'm so happy, you know, when the speakers before me were talking, I wanted to jump up and down. And Suaya was talking about principle number two, and I saw Po there, was like, "Yes, that's exactly where we're at." So I'm also excited about the opportunity that she's talking about, available for the circularity, um, which sits at about 94%. So that's great for us.

In a nutshell, just to give you a little bit of us as Sanalo, as I said, um, we registered in 2019. We intend obviously to beneficiate these, um, ash dams. We've got so many around us. So, um, we currently have about 30 people that are working with us. Um, we've already invested a lot of our personal funds into setting up this plant. As you can see, we're sitting on a 72-hectare land, um, on a rent-to-buy basis. And someone would ask, "Why do you need such a big space?" We need a big space because we have got a very big vision. Honestly, we do not see ourselves as just a brick manufacturer, not at all. It's just that in order to enter the market, you obviously need to have some gateway. And for us, a brick manufacturer is a gateway into the economy. But, um, our essence really is in this beneficiation of this ash. And either, um, what they classify as waste, we do know better now that, you know, not every product is actually just waste. Some of them have got reusable benefits to it, right?

So we set up here in Balmoral. One day, you will see our sign when we're ready, we'll put up a sign. You'll see us when you go to Pretoria or when you go to Mbombela, there's no way that you'll miss us. Um, and also, um, we've been involved with quite a number of institutes so far, right? In 2022, we were part of the cohort for the Climate Finance Accelerator Program, that is hosted by the UK government. Very exciting work as well. We had about 181 people applying for that, and we're one of the 15, 18 that made it to the cohort. So to us, it says the work that we do is noticed, um, and, and there's attention to be paid to it. And then in 2023, last year, we, we, we were winners of the Green Cluster Pitch Challenge at Mpumalanga, again, talking about, um, the beneficiation of ash. So again, that's very good for us. This year, yeah, it is this year. Hollywood hosted a, a Bamba Challenge as well, and we were one of the winners out of the top 20. The biggest one for us is the Irish Tech Challenge. The Irish Tech Challenge, it started just now, I think around June or so, May, June, yeah. And 350 companies applied for this. This is also focusing on the technology, um, that it helped to, you know, make and boost the economy. So we presented the geopolymer technology, obviously, aligned with what Sanalo's vision is. And about 350 companies applied, and seven were selected, and Sanalo is one of the seven companies that are selected. So we are on our way to Ireland, just to let you know, which is very exciting as well.

So let's talk about the, the, the technology a little bit. So the solution, obviously, that we are presenting is saying the institutions, and probably companies in, in their large forms, and again, in this, in this space, when we're talking about the mining sector, there is an objective for the mining sector, and the, and obviously the objective is to mine, whether whatever mineral it is that you're focusing on. So it's not necessarily to be looking at all these other things that come with it. So what we say as a private business, together with technology that is developed, which is called, which is called geopolymer, how then can we use this to beneficiate, um, the waste material that that comes from this production? Actually, very exciting about what we're talking about, because funny for me, the whole time we're talking about ash beneficiation, our focus, I actually was telling someone, our focus has always been on the end user. And the end user, unfortunately, in this case, is Eskom. So you look at Eskom and you say to Eskom, "Yeah, you are sitting with this ash dams, you are sitting with this pile of waste, what are you going to do about it?" And there is someone in the background who you should be talking to. And that, and that someone is the mining sector, right? My colleague, when I said to them, "We are presenting this under the mining sector," they were saying to me, "But we are manufacturing. What do we have to do with mining?" But when you understand circularity, you say, "But before we even get the ash, before we start talking about waste, where does it come from?" So can we go to that person, that source, and say, "What's your plan around the longevity of this product that you're extracting and the processing of it, up until it gets to a point where it is a mountain that is white that God has not created?" And that's the opportunity that I see with, um, the mining sector and its involvement in the circularity, and how this beneficiation would be an asset to any mine, it doesn't matter what mineral they're mining, because there's an array of technologies that you can use, um, to, to, to match and, and probably convert the waste or the end product into aggregates. In this case, I think brick manufacturing is the aggregate that is most, um, suitable for the, for the production. The geopolymer on its own has been tested, um, at a semi-industrial scale, and it has its accreditations. So it's a matter of upscaling, and it's a matter of getting it into a commercial level, and that is where CSIR, I mean, that is where Sanalo is coming in.

So what makes us excited about your geopolymer as well are the benefits. I mean, like the production process of your geopolymer, if you look, if you compare it to your normal binder, we're talking about reduction of carbon emission by up to 80% in the production process, which is absolutely excellent. You are looking at, "How am I reskilling? And am I reusing my resource to make sure that I'm benefiting the economy or the community in which I'm staying? How do I produce a sustainable product? How do I produce a stronger product? How do I compete in the market as well?" So those are all the benefits that we see with the geopolymer, which make us excited. And we are saying to the mining sector, "Let's have these conversations and see how we can use this to the benefit of the country."

Now, why do we want to do this? What value do we think we can offer? So obviously, for us, the biggest one is replicability. What does that mean? Sanalo's intention, as I said, we are already set up in Balmoral. The plan is not to bring everybody to Balmoral, because waste is everywhere. So you go to any place where you're sitting with this waste, and then what you do is you just replicate the model that we already have implemented in our yard. Why? Because we now know better. We know better how to set up a plant. We know better how to choose, um, the right skill sets for whatever you want to do. So what we want to do is we follow where the waste is. We bring the technology. Say, for example, you've got a mine dump in Hendrina, making an example. You don't have to bring people from Hendrina to come to work in Balmoral. You can set up another plant in that place and then make sure that the community benefits. So basically, what you do, and what I see as an opportunity for the mining sector, is how they can collaborate with us so that there's extension of life of this product that has been exported and has made so much money for the companies. So how do we make sure that people on the ground are not left behind? Which is a tagline that I totally appreciated when I attended one of the seminars to say, to Julie's point, it's so easy to say, "Go green, switch off everything." But, you know, economies are not the same. For South Africa, that may not be such an ideal situation to just do it immediately because of the economic impact and the socio-economic impact that that would have. So what we're saying is, how do we transition and make sure that, um, there's understanding? For me, my biggest, um, smile is when the employees on the ground start to notice these mines, I mean, these ash dams, and they start saying, "Our job is to make sure that something good comes out of that." And we are talking about someone who probably left school in grade five, um, and has no education further than that, and their excitement to come to the plant and do this is because now, somehow, their eyes are open into how can I create and make a difference in the economy.

So pretty excited as Sanalo. Um, I can talk a lot, but I'm, I'm just gonna leave it here for now. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Thank you so much, Prudence. I'm getting goosebumps. I love it. It's fantastic. Thank you. Really, I love that you're speaking about localization, but also connecting the dots, right, of actually knowing which institutions are out there and what the institutions are doing. I think Julie also touched on that, is there's so much happening in the space, and we really need to connect the dots so that other people and other entrepreneurs can actually really treasure those opportunities that are in the system. So I know that we are slightly behind time. Thanks, Prudence. Slightly behind, um, time, but what I'm going to do is jump straight into the interactive session. And for that, I am quickly going to launch one of the, um, whiteboards that we have prepared for this. You should be able to get on to it in a second. I already see that people are following me around. And because I also saw quite a lot of, um, questions in the chat, I think let's spend around about 10 to 15 minutes on the interactive part. Um, I do want that we answer some of the questions as well. But let me just, um, show you quickly around. You can, um, for those of you who haven't used the whiteboard before, you can, um, on the right-hand corner, bottom corner, you can actually zoom in and out, and you have this little hand symbol where you can grab the board and, um, move around and navigate around the board. And then what we have prepared is questions for, questions for you, and to just grab a sticky note and start filling in those, um, opportunities, for example, that we have just currently discussed, or let you also know about in the mining sector. We have said opportunities around minimizing waste and pollution in South Africa in the mining sector, but please feel free to also mention other opportunities. So once you're on a sticky note, you can start, start literally typing away, um, and the same goes obviously for all the other questions. Um, I think I don't, I see people being still a bit hesitant. Um, I'm wondering if I should quickly zoom in again. And I'm going to let you guys unfollow me, otherwise you have to follow my, um, my hand constantly around on the whiteboard. I see the first people are actually starting to fill in, um, the sticky notes. Okay, let me share again. Sorry, Cara. Yeah, just disappeared. It has happened the last time again. I think it's, it's one bug in the system where it does happen. Let's try this again. I'm also just going to add some additional sticky notes to the board, but I'm sure you can also do that from your side. So I see that everyone is quite active, which is amazing. And we always tried, we thought maybe let's split it up per question, but I always see that people jump to the question that they feel drawn to. So please continue doing that. Um, the first question I have already, um, spoken to. And then obviously, on the second question, we are also asking, what are barriers that exist to the effective implementation of product and material stewardship in the mining value chain, and how can these be overcome? So we know we have checked in very big and bold questions, um, but we do hope that we get some very interesting insights as well. And then we are also quite interested, and, um, Suaya has alluded quite well to it, and Julie as well, around the feedback and input that you can give on the regulatory space that would actually enable to drive circularity in the mining sector. And the last question, we always like to pose that as well, is what is your commitment to bring forward circular economy at an organizational level, at the organization that you are involved in? I see people are very busy, so I'm just starting to chuck in more sticky notes, which is fantastic. Um, we have actually also asked, um, similar questions in the agriculture webinar, and we'll do that also for manufacturing and energy, the forthcoming webinars, so that we can also see if there's a bit of a coherent theme across them, because yes, we are focusing on sectors, but at the end, we do need to understand the entire system and where the bottlenecks are, but also where the opportunities are. E, I'm also just going through the notes so that we can do that in a second together, just to read all the feedback. Okay, I see some last people also writing on the board. Um, I can, and maybe give everyone another two minutes, and then we couldn't actually look at all the feedback that we have collected, because it seems to be quite a lot already. [Music] And Nobantu, can I maybe also ask you in a second to speak to the, um, to speak to the board, um, once I'm done, because I'm sure you are actually picking out other highlights than me? Yeah, I think a lot of, um, a lot of what's going on seems to be a really good reflection on what we discussed today, um, obviously with some, some personal insights as well. Um, I think that consistently, there seems to be a lot of comments on, on collaboration and information sharing. So that's obviously a really good red thread from, you know, what we spoke about today, but just generally, I think our, our understanding and our need within the more broad circular economy, um, there's a comment here on, on the role of industrial symbiosis, which I think is pretty much exactly what, um, what Julie outlined for us earlier, is maybe looking more at, um, at mine sites as a more, you know, in the way that industrial symbiosis operates, which means that byproducts get fed through to other, other businesses. Maybe we can think about mine sites as places where that can happen as well. Um, yeah, and I think that, uh, yeah, raising more awareness and aligning our business strategies more connectedly to effective legislation and looking to the future for what's possible. Nobantu, did you pick up anything that I, I mean, there's a lot here. Thank you everyone for being so, uh, engaged. No, did you pick up anything? Thank you, Cara. Absolutely. I think my favorite is more about the lack of collaboration, knowledge, and vision, and more. I think that one definitely trumps it for me, because, um, I made a side note for myself just to reiterate the fact that, um, you know, from, from what all the speakers said, Suaya, um, Julie as well, and Prudence coming in, the solutions are there. But I think, um, and South Africans are clearly a very innovative nation. We're very advanced, more advanced than what we give ourselves credit for. However, I think that there's probably, um, a lack in terms of monitoring, evaluation, and measurement. So, you know, when we do these things and we come up with these innovations, do we have, um, a structured way in which we go back and revisit, um, what it is that we've done? What has worked? What hasn't necessarily worked? Because I think if you look at even the speaker profiles, these are not people who just happened upon the circular economy yesterday. These are specialists, um, who've been in the industry, who've been innovating solutions for quite some time. But do we have a structured manner in which we go back and look at what legislation has, has worked, and what legislation isn't working, so that we can inform policy changes, um, instead of just coming up with new policies and coming up with new, um, new, new, new frameworks all the time, but actually just going back and seeing what is actually existing, what is working, what needs to be iterated, and how are we going to, um, monitor and measure? And I think from an SMME perspective as well, you look at bodies like SM, um, the Mpumalanga Green Cluster Agency, what feedback mechanisms are they having for, not maybe not today, but five years down the line, in terms of what impact that they've, um, they've had. Um, business models, I think was a big one that stuck out for me in terms of transitioning to more circular and sustainable business models. There is a lot of resistance, and I think the resistance comes from not knowing or not being aware of what sits behind the veil, because we're so set in terms of, uh, what we've been doing and what has worked, and more importantly, what has actually been profitable over the past couple of years. And now you're asking people to go and look, take a peek behind the veil and risk their profitability, whereas if you're holding a long-term view, and a system view, you actually realize that there's so many tradeoffs and value in terms of adopting more circular business models and a more sustainable, um, approach to doing business. And, um, I don't know if I can put it here as well, um, the issue of uniformity, standardization of, um, compliance. The mining sector, by far, is one of the hardest hit sectors in terms of regulatory compliance. You look at CBAM, you look at, um, UN SDGs, you look at, there's a whole cocktail of compliance bodies that the mining sector has to be cognizant of. And, you know, I think maybe if we look at some of the, if we look at SM, maybe these are things that we can start to look at to say, okay, as a South African sector, um, you know, this is the basic, there's a cocktail of 50, but I think as a sector, this is what we want to prioritize, so that we don't have, um, these different, this frustration in the industry in terms of, you know, what are the, what are the compliance measurements that we actually need to be aligning our, our business processes to? So, um, I think sure, this board has definitely been extremely exciting, um, lots of input, lots of feedback. Thank you very much for that.

Thank you, thanks Nobantu. I love, yes, as you also mentioned, is the highlight of thinking long-term, how do we structure organizations, how do we structure business models? And I think that's sometimes so daunting, right? That we are actually really, really challenging what we know as status quo to go into the unknown. Um, I love that you have mentioned CBAM as well, as a regulatory framework, which is going to hit South Africa quite hard as well. However, it can also set up South Africa to be very competitive as well. So they are always, I think, two sides to the coin. I really love it, um, to hear about that. I think from a regulatory, um, perspective also, what participants said quite strongly is around accountability and effective legislation. And we know South Africa has grown legislation actually in place. We do know there are challenges within the different frameworks that actually need to be ironed out so that circularity can be implemented. Mine tailings as a hazardous waste was mentioned previously, that's definitely something that needs to be worked on. I know that, um, sometimes people, and we see that here as well, is that government, it says on here that government is short-sighted, but I do think that there is quite a bit of drive in government as well to actually figure out what circularity means to them and how can they actually create that enabling framework. Again, it needs to be an approach between all the different stakeholders, so we can't do it without government, we can't do it without the private sector, but we also can't do it without all the initiatives that are actually happening on the ground, because they are informing the practicalities. Um, yeah, I think what I also like is the commitment part of this board. Someone is just saying like, "I'm committed to implement the circular economy in my sector." I love that. Well done. I think that's great. We would really love, um, to see how that comes to fruition. Awareness raising, um, are really, um, enjoy also the comment is like, "Moan about the lack of collaboration, knowledge, and vision, and more." I do think again, there's lots happening in the space. We are trying to connect the dots. Um, there are really great examples and stakeholders that, um, try to link everyone up. But again, there's so much happening. If you look just at the Just Energy Transition on its own, or hydrogen sector, there's so many stakeholders in the field, and to understand all of them and know what their roles are, um, but what they have done so far as well, um, needs to be better understood so that we can drive circularity in a, um, streamlined manner, and between the sectors as well, right? Because mining is not just a lone standing sector. Okay. So I, um, see that we have spent quite a bit of time on the board. Thank you again so much for all the input that you that everyone has, um, provided. I see that we see the first hands actually shooting up. Um, maybe Julie, you can give a comment or a question, because I would really like to ask some of the questions to the speakers as well, and then, um, I quickly give it over to Nobantu. If I can ask everyone to be very brief and concise, that would be great. Thank you.

Kina, it's actually to allow Carla Hudson to respond to, um, Nobantu, because she can't, um, put her hand up. So perhaps you could just let Carla respond. Thanks. Absolutely, Carla, the floor is yours. Um, big apologies that I was joining late, but I got, um, sort of the last half an hour. I actually was charging back from from Middleburg on a meeting with what is going on on init and Karti. Um, I just quickly want to answer. I saw that board with all the questions. The Mpumalanga Green Cluster Agency was formed, um, in 2022 for exactly all those points that was brought up on that board. The problem is that the PPC, PCC, sorry, was formed at national level, but Mpumalanga is a special case because we've got 11 of the 13, um, power stations in Mpumalanga. So we really play a pivotal role. And basically, what the Mpumalanga Green Cluster, or the MGCA, is now, um, empowered to do is basically take the role of the PCC, um, on provincial level. So we are, last week, we were appointed the Secretariat for the, um, Just Transition and Climate Change Steering Committee of the Mpumalanga Province. So basically, we will be the platform that collaborates all projects that is related to Just Transition and Climate Change in the province, exactly to make sure that there's communication, that there's no, um, duplication of projects, that projects can actually start working together rather than competing with each other. So basically, what I'm quickly want to say is, is that's exactly why we were formed, that's exactly what we're doing. Um, and I would really like to, if there's any questions, um, please, if if people could email me, contact me, um, because we've got a massive database of all the projects that's going on, not just in, um, in, um, in Nkangala and Steve Tshwete, but, um, eMalahleni, Gert Sibande, and so we're looking at tourism, we're looking at the forestry, looking at mining, and looking at how we can all, I mean, we've got four clusters, basically, water, energy, agriculture, um, and then circular economy, and then all over that is skills development and jobs creation. So, yeah, a very quick introduction to Mpumalanga Green Cluster, but that's exactly the reason why, um, this agency was established. Thank you for the opportunity.

Perfect, thank you so much, Carla. Um, we're going to definitely reach out to you because we also have a webinar on energy, um, and really interested in a case study because Circular South Africa has mapped out, um, circular economy case studies across the country, and we are actually constantly falling into more and more case studies.

And of actually organizations that have already captured other case studies, which is really fantastic. Um, I think Nobantu, do you still have your hand up, or was that actually, um, linked to also Cara? Yeah, okay, perfect. Then I think maybe I can open up the floor to some questions. So I'm just picking out, um, one, um, of the questions. It was asked, "How can investing in R&D help us to unlock the financial challenges?" So I'm not sure if maybe this is best, um, put towards Julie or Somaya.

Hit me with a small one, why don't you? I think one of the ways that it's an indirect path, but the more research and innovation that we do in this field, the more we will understand, and the more we will understand about the interrelationships between mining, job creation, and circularity. We just don't have the answers right now. So I think it'll be an indirect path to unlocking financial value, but that there is financial value in my mind is unquestionable. So I think if we can start to put numbers on that very complicated map that I had, I think, um, investment in RDI helps you understand things, including the financial value.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. Thanks so much, Julie. Then there was another question around, "Is it fair to say that we would like to use our metals and minerals locally with the primary purpose of for establishing renewable energy technology capabilities in South Africa? So if we are allocating critical minerals and metals between, um, renewable energy technologies and other value chains, is it widely accepted that the renewable energy technologies take the first position?" I know this is not a manufacturing webinar, um, but maybe someone on the call can actually still answer that and speak to if renewable energy technologies take, um, the preference when it comes to manufacturing overall.

I see no hand is going up. Maybe is Carla still here? Maybe, um, she could pitch in on on that one because it speaks exactly to to her intro. Um, sorry, just repeat, repeat the question, sorry. I'm actually, um, whatsapping Julie because basically we actually started, um, planning to take, uh, what projects we're actually going to take to COP 29 in November to go, um, for funding opportunities. So basically I was basically whatsapping her asking her if she's got anything that we can take to COP 29 because we basically need to submit, um, applications now. Um, so I don't know if that's answering your question, but I mean, we've, we've got, uh, a space on the South African Pavilion at COP 29. We've got seven spaces where we can actually interact with potential funders, um, and people that is actually at COP 29. The Premier, the Pumalanga Premier, is actually coming with us in the HS, so that would be an absolute wonderful opportunity. Um, and that's why, you know, we would love people to submit potential projects and and scopes and things, uh, to the agency that we can actually start looking at how we can coordinate funders. Um, I mean, we've, uh, we actually met the the State Secretary of Germany last night. Um, so, yeah, they're very, very interested. They love the process in South Africa. What's happening? South Africa is actually one of the leaders, especially in the developing, uh, world, on on the the just transition, uh, movement. Um, so there's a lot of interest, a lot of eyes on South Africa. So I think there would be a lot of opportunities, but we, yeah, we need to collaborate, we need to coordinate, we need to, um, present a strong case, uh, to these funders because there is money. Um, um, we just need to really, um, know, um, present it in the right way to the right funders.

Thank you. Yeah, I do think that speaks actually, um, to also the people that are online. So please send Carla an email around, um, case studies or your business ideas as well. I think that's fantastic. Um, I think we can pick up the question around renewable energy technologies and the manufacturing sector in the next webinar series. Um, so without further ado, and I'm just quickly going to share my slide again, I am going to, um, give over to Dr. Janita Badul. She's from the Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment, and is also collaborating with us on this project. Janita, over to you.

Thanks, Karina. Um, good afternoon, everybody. Uh, and, uh, once again, thanks to the, um, presenters who've actually made the time to join us on this webinar and provide and share their knowledge around the circularity imperatives and how it can be taken up in terms of, uh, transitioning the industry itself or the sector. And as, uh, Dr. Dara indicated in her opening remarks, uh, that, uh, the mining sector is one of the key economic drivers for South Africa itself in terms of their contributions. And I think Katarina, you also touched on it briefly in terms of the percentage contribution to the GDP per annum. Now, in transitioning from linear to circular operating models, the opportunities obviously, which have been highlighted by, uh, firstly, SAA's presentation, she's indicated some of the low-hanging fruit in in terms of the uptake of biotechnology, uh, during, uh, process activities, as well as the beneficiation, which didn't necessarily come too strongly, but, you know, in a way, uh, the case study which Prudence and her company is currently undertaking, we're looking at circularity from reducing, uh, the waste, uh, and producing these building materials which have a lower carbon footprint. I have to indicate that, uh, keeping materials in use for longer would be the first win for for the mining sector with, uh, you know, limited, uh, investments that's required upfront. And we know that there are countries who have been leading in terms of mining end-of-life electronics, for example. So it definitely provides opportunity, but also starts to look into the value chain a little, a little bit broader, on where we could actually have the impact, uh, in the short-term, medium-term, and the long-term. And obviously, the work that the CSIR has also undertaken, uh, points in that direction, uh, in terms of the R&D that's required. And and Julie also was, uh, briefly touching on that particular item. But what I want to also indicate that the skills sets that are required, and it's probably going to be new skill sets, along, uh, the technology that is required, or the uptake of new technology that will come, uh, online as well. So there, I was quite, um, what can I say, um, surprised by some of these, um, opportunities that have been provided, but taking that with a pinch of salt, noting that we have a few barriers that we have to overcome, and also noting some of the comments under the questions, Katarina, on DMRE and DFF trying to get their act together. This has been a long-standing battle, but I'm sure as you've indicated as well, there's a lot that's happening behind the scenes. The DSI has definitely been at the forefront in terms of their, uh, fuel cell technology, and some of the mining companies or mining houses that have actually taken up and demonstrated the potential for, uh, technology use. That being said, I want to, um, also take this opportunity to thank our partner GIS for making this possible, making the series possible, and to the panelists, as I indicated earlier on, for sharing their knowledge and experience. And in the participants, uh, who've actually made the webinar possible because it would have been just ourselves talking amongst ourselves. And, uh, and finally, the ASN team, Karina, you and the team, thank you so much for facilitating the session. And we're definitely looking forward to the next two sessions for those who are still online. We have two more sessions coming up, which Nanto also mentioned at the beginning of the webinar series, on the 11th as well as the 24th of October. So looking forward to the manufacturing as well as the energy sector. And I'll stop there. Over to you.

Thanks. Thanks, thanks so much, Janita. Um, yeah, it was, I, I really loved the session. It was so insightful, so much, um, yeah, just food for thought. I really, really enjoyed it. I really want to, um, thank GIS and obviously DFF to make this possible. The speakers that put their time into preparing the presentation to share their visions and their passion with us. I think this is giving me a lot of, um, yeah, just fuel as well. Um, for the participants that took part, I would also ask you, obviously, to sign up for the next, um, dialogue, for the next webinar on manufacturing that's happening on the 11th of October. Just please scan the QR code or follow us on LinkedIn. And, um, I'm going to stop the webinar in a minute, but please also make sure to fill out the survey because we just want to hear your feedback also on the webinar series and what we can obviously, what was good, what we can do better the next time around as well. And then, um, I do hope to see you the next time. Thanks so much. Much to my team, and then I wish everyone a wonderful and, uh, yeah, good afternoon. Thanks.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Karina. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Most interesting. Cheers. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye.