And, This is Governor Tim Walz

This is Gavin Newsom, and this is governor Tim Walz. Alright, governor. It's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for being with us. I am.

Thanks for having me. I, I'm kinda wondering where I fall on this list of guests, but I'm excited. You and I have been friends for a while, so, we've not appreciated. But we we you and I talked about this for a while, trying to trying to understand, during a Trump presidency, how do we best serve our folks? How do we get back there?

And the the Democratic party, I mean, we all need to be very candid, is is is not all that popular right now. Well, that's where I wanted to to start, just right up top. I mean, the timing of this couldn't be, more opportunistic for both of us as Democratic governors. It's look. We're we're in the tank.

I mean, it's not just a rough spot. It's an historically low, at least in modern polling. Back to the nineteen nineties, CNN had the Democratic Party brand now down about 29%, and it was even worse in an NBC poll that showed 27% of people supporting, our party. You've been out on the road. You were just in a couple of red states.

You've been doing town halls. We've talked about this in the past privately. It's not just about what you say and how you say it. It's also about where you say it. Yeah.

So I love the fact you were out there. So give us a sense, I mean, what you're over under is about where the hell our party is right now. Well, and I think that's what people are doing. Look. You're this is something hadn't been done what you're doing, and people are you know, and they're so we're trying to enter spaces.

And and and look. I don't know if all of them are gonna work. I I don't but but the fact of the matter is we don't wanna win elections just to say Democrats won elections. We wanna win elections to improve people's lives. When we're losing elections, chaos reigns, which we're seeing right now.

I'm out of town hall, and these folks are standing up. They're a VA nurse. They're, you know, they're concerned what's happening at the VA. They're a farmer that's concerned. They're they're folks that are concerned about their personal reproductive rights and their life choices.

And if we can't be a respected opposition or alternative, that really worries me. And I say this, Gavin, that that I didn't I didn't go to the Democrats. They came to me with Social Security, with GI Bill. You know, it was clear when at least my age growing up, Democrats stood with working people, Republicans stood with the wealthy. And there was nothing necessarily wrong with that.

That, you know, it was it was a at least an argument. It feels much more polarized now, but people don't see us as that. And so They see it exactly the opposite of that, that we're the party of the elites, that we don't represent we represent, quote, unquote, others. We don't represent them. And this notion that the working class now has been or has embraced Donald Trump is extraordinary.

And so and what do you mean? I mean, the people out on the camp you were out on the campaign trail. I mean, it's such an interesting conversation for me to have with you and for those listening because no one has more sort of a contemporary ear to the ground than you do just coming off a few months ago the campaign trail, meeting people all across this country. I mean, these these new numbers that came out at CNN and NBC, I mean, even you had to be shocked Yeah. By how far we've fallen as a brand.

Yeah. Look. And I felt excitement out there, and our our policies are popular, by the way. When you when you pull our policies, like paid family medical leave, support for the environment, reproductive rights, they pull very high. We don't.

So what I have to tell you, what I take away from that, Gavin, is is that I I think we gotta be very careful of drinking our own Kool Aid or believing we're in our bubble, because I truly did think we were gonna win. And I say that as someone who has run-in traditionally red districts, won close races, and I felt like I had a feel. And I think this is where we're going to have to get out over our skis a bit, try new places. I know we've had this argument. It was out there.

Governor, we didn't see you on a lot of, you know, things that weren't mainstream media. We didn't see you on podcasts. We didn't see you doing that. Are you willing to go into those? We need to be willing to go into those spaces.

Now between you and I, Gavin, I don't think we're gonna win over those 77,000,000 that voted for Donald Trump. I'm concerned with the 90,000,000 who stayed home. Now I'm concerned that our policies positively impact those 77,000,000 because you and I represent a lot of independents, republicans, greens, as well as democrats, and we have a responsibility. I don't know if we can necessarily win them over, but I think the thing that we should really soul search on is when the choice was Donald Trump, JD Vance, and Kamala Harris, and myself, and policies that we were clearly articulating, it got pretty close, 77 to 75 type of thing, but it's the 90,000,000 that stayed home. Why did they think we were the same?

Why did they think we weren't there? And I don't I think by going into these spaces to be candid with you, it allows people to express their frustrations. It allows people to, articulate what's happening in their lives. It better also be a place where we're hearing and learning, Because I'm guessing you're hearing some things that you don't normally hear when you're going on with some of these folks you're on with. They're telling Understood.

Don't hear. So No. And that's yeah. This notion of uncomfortable conversations, not just conversations. But let me let me let me step back.

I love what you said because it's interesting. This notion of our policies are popular, but our party is not popular. And it begs the question some have, asked me, and I I wanna pose it to you. Do you think one of the mistakes is we don't focus first on what we stand for and then make the case the policy that backs that up and reinforces it, that we are not fundamentally meeting people where they are? They wanna know what we stand for.

Yeah. I think that's good. Yeah. And I and look. I and I appreciate.

I think we're gonna be in hard places, and I think we're gonna get punched from both sides doing some of this. But we're not in this to like I said, we're not banking political capital to win another election. We're trying to improve people's lives. And let's all be very candid. Nobody's lives being improved right now except billionaires, and I don't see that changing.

And so I think we're gonna have to ask those questions. I think a lot of times the simple answer is it's the messenger, you know, which I'll I'll acknowledge. Maybe the messenger is not good at this. I approach this always, Gavin, like a school teacher. I give a lesson, and then I do an assessment of that lesson, and half the students didn't do very well on it.

Well, I don't assume that those half are terrible kids. I assume that they have a different learning style or they weren't hearing the way I was teaching it. Maybe these folks were, you know, verbal learners. Maybe they were kinesthetic learners, whatever it might be. I think we have to approach the electorate like that that we think we're telling them where we're at.

But for whatever reason, you're right, and this pains me, I tried to make the case. Look. I'm a public school teacher, went to a public university, and according to the Wall Street Journal, I'm the poorest person who ever ran for, vice president. That didn't matter to them. And so the idea here that we were trying to craft someone who, for whatever reason, there was a number of people that didn't register with.

So I'm I'm with everybody else. And, again, when people ask me, I'm probably the last person you should ask for answers because I didn't get it done. But I do believe we were making inroads, and I will have to tell you, one of the most powerful ones for me, Gavin, it's not a great use of campaign time, but we were up in Erie, Pennsylvania on Halloween before the election, and I sat down with five undecided voters, and we had a forty five minute give and take on that. I think I got three of them for sure, maybe. But, you know, that's how you view it.

But the fact of the matter was is it was really good for me too because it was coming back and forth. And this guy says, well, I didn't realize, you know, you understood farm policy like this because I'm not hearing that from you guys. You're just telling us he wasn't hearing that. And I said, but I do know this. I know the price of corn.

I I I know how these things work. So I I think as Democrats, we're gonna have to push ourselves into uncomfortable spots. And these these town halls, look. I'll be the first to acknowledge of you. It's to highlight that their members of congress on the Republican side are ashamed of Donald Trump's policies.

Let's not I mean, was that fun foundationally what the why? Was that the inspiration Yes. To go out and do it? Yep. Yes.

And I don't demonize these representatives. I honor their service. I went out there, but I lived through this. I went to the town halls during the ACA, and I made a full throated defense of president Obama's health care bill, and I got reelected. Now it was a tough fight, but I got reelected.

These folks are not going out there, and I'll tell you, it's a huge mistake. Democrats did this in 2010. Oh, these are Republican operatives. They were not Republican operatives. They were my neighbors who were madder than hell and were getting misinformation.

But I went out and filled that void. I think we as Democrats have have left a void and that Donald Trump is masterful. Say what you will about this. I don't give him credit. I don't think he's a genius.

I don't think he knows how stuff works, but I do think he knows how media works. And I do think he knows that if we're assuming people hear our arguments, they're just so self just like that teacher in me. I taught the lesson. This should be easy. Well, that's not how all people learn.

It's not how people's lives are at. And, again, I don't if if someone who doesn't believe a woman should have the right to choose, if someone who doesn't believe the president should be restrained by the constitution, I'm not gonna win them. But I don't believe that's a a very large percentage of the population. Right. But why are why are they not trusting us?

What's your take? I mean, why are what are you hearing when you hear this? Why why are people not trusting the message we were delivering? Because I keep coming back to this. We needed to have immigration reform to control our borders, and you can do that with humanity.

Donald Trump just said they're invading our country and they're eating dogs and cats, and he got more votes. Why is So I mean and and I wanna and and I've I've I've strong opinions on that, but I wanna sort of stress test yours again because I think it's interesting. Back to my notion, and you say you're the last person. I'm I'm gonna completely dismiss. I think you're the best positioned to understand what's going on.

But let me reflect on this notion of you being a teacher and reflecting on, on how your students did. Did you have an opportunity right after the election to sit down, over the course? I mean, I hope you took time off with the family, decompressed, but you had to have had with your team those con these conversations. Did you have them with the Harris team as well? Did you have them with the campaign team?

Have you organized anything more formally, even internally? You got books coming out. They're gonna shape those internal conversations. You got one book coming out in a few weeks called Fight that is already starting to frame what did or did not occur. Have you started that process, or has that process, been the case?

Yeah. No. You're right. And I've talked to my team about it. Look.

You'd as a high school teacher and a governor or whatever, I didn't think about writing a book, But being there, I have. You know? I think we gotta tell our story, and I think there's lessons learned. To not go back and do a, you know, a deep dive or a hot wash of this is is irresponsible, in my opinion. I spoke to the, the vice president last week.

We talked a little bit about this of coming to it, but we haven't done, like, a formal debrief. And, you know, when you're part of you've done this that when you're part of a team on this, you know, you you work together, and I stand by that. I I signed up. And and I say this, Gavin, you'd appreciate it. Not the cliches of coaching or whatever, but but I'm I feel like I'm the constant team player.

If you are truly a team player, you have a responsibility to make your team better. And that means a responsibility to say, look. We're not making this block here. We need to do this or whatever it is. And we need to be honest that, again, I keep coming back to that number of the folks who stayed home.

How in god's name could you stay home during this election? It's pretty hard to blame that on Donald Trump. You know what I mean? That you've got a responsibility. They weren't gonna vote for him.

His people were. But you had a whole bunch of these folks that just said, what difference does it make? And how did we, as a party, get into that? How did we lose the narrative? How much are we ceding ground to the Fox News and the the right wing talking heads?

How much are we ceding to them, which we don't have a pushback on it? And that's fascinating to me. I see that with me. People who have a clearly defined vision who I am by what they listen to, and I'm like, well, that's not true. None of that is true, but they have it.

So They have it. And, I mean, and and it's so interesting. I think about you and, you know, we've talked about this before, this notion of, you know, you were there was an effort to swift boat you in terms of your military service. Yes. And it's interesting.

And, Tim, we've also talked about the fact you were part of Carrie's campaign as a veteran promoting it watching Kerry by these same folks get swept away. And I did it. And and I'm telling you, this is one of the most painful ones for me, Gavin, not because I don't go down and throw this in people's faces, but my dad was Korean War veteran. Yeah. He took me.

I did it. I don't go out there and say, you know, I'm better than you because I did 24. But how quickly these guys dismissed twenty four years of honorable service. I wrote and served as a highest ranking enlisted soldier where you can get. And they find a way to damage that.

And my argument on that has always been it damages all veterans. But I bet if you went and polled, we see this. Veterans voted for Donald Trump when they voted for us. Right. We as Democrats how do you write this off?

How do you or or this one. Republicans are more fiscally conservative. You know that's not true. Republican governors of California have not been fiscally conservative. No.

And I'll remind everyone, $8,400,000,000,000 added to the debt during the four years of the Trump administration. And if you wanna dismiss that, say it was COVID, it was 3,000,000,000,000 before the pandemic. He ran deficits every single year. So I I stand by what you just said, Tim. I mean, what do you think happened?

And look. You're taking a different approach. You're you're you're doing other things. And I said, I think we as Democrats have to give whether it's Bernie Sanders, whether it's Jasmine Crockett, AOC, Gavin Newsom, JB Pritzker, all of the folks out there because, look, what we have in common is we believe in working people. We believe in fairness.

We believe in health care. We believe in the environment. We're on the same team as the American public, but how do you see it? I mean, did it feel like we were gonna win? No.

I mean, we we had that conversation. I I felt like that up until election day for whatever reason. And look. But I'd say, you know, it's interesting. I had the same false sense, that I think we all fall prey to, and that is I was on those campaign buses.

I was out there campaigning for you guys, and it's it's make believe in many respect. When they say, you know, when you wanna go right, they say, oh, no, sir. We gotta go left because that's where the crowds are, and we've been working hard to assemble them. And I wonder just in terms of that, and I wanna get back to answering your question, but I wanna just applaud you for doing these red state tours. But do you fear and I'm curious of your experiences like this.

When you go into those crowds, which were huge, you were in Omaha, you were in Ohio in Iowa, excuse me, as well, and you you had huge crowds. But do you fear they're just you were talking to our same folks? Yeah. Or or do you feel like there's a bunch of Republicans that were there to listen to you? No.

I I don't fear it, but I think we need to be honest with ourselves. The folks who took a beautiful Friday afternoon in Des Moines to come listen to Tim Walsh speak probably have a pretty good opinion of me in the first place. But that's probably too. That's okay because they're they're screaming. What are you guys gonna do about it?

But I do tell you there were some independents there. I doubt if there were a whole lot of Republicans, but I tell you what, those Republicans were watching. And I think what I would say if I was them is, look. Our our representative can do better than Walls. He should do it.

He should get out there and do it. This is to put pressure on them to come forward Right. Because then it really does become a debate about the the critical issues. And like I said this, I you know, they can just come and why did you cut the VA? Just tell us.

Tell us why you think that's a good idea. Because I would argue once again, 80% of Americans don't wanna cut the VA. And you have to give them statistics and facts, and and I think my purpose of this is is to force the hand of these folks because I gotta be honest with you. I think if they try and defend this stuff, they're gonna lose. I believe strongly in that.

This isn't just us versus them. This is good policy versus bad policy. And so that's the purpose. But, no, I I wanna be clear to folks who see that. The folks showing up are excited, but here's my thing.

Four months after losing this critical election, our base is still engaged. So I think that polling is interesting, Gavin, that it doesn't mean that there's less Democrats. And the reason that number is so low is if you poll every single year, if you ask the Republican party their opinion of the Democratic party, it's very low. The reason our numbers are so low is those are Democrats. Yep.

63% feel and I was I was I was I was grateful it was 63% still. I don't know. Well, here's what I say. I'm not a Democrat. I'm Democratic farmer labor.

I'm the worst person in the country. We're DFL. And so and I actually think, Gavin, this is an interesting point. While I won't cry and tell you, we've kept the farmers all with us or whatever, we have kept some of them, like farmers union in Minnesota and and these issues around water quality and different things, and we're labor. And in Minnesota, we really do this was a marriage between the farmer labor party, which quite honestly was more progressive and leaning into the issues of the working class and Democrats.

And so I I think on a national level, we're gonna have to conversation of who we are because like you said it, people don't believe we're with them. They think we're elitist. And and and and and back to that a little bit. Look. What I love about what you did is you you're you're meeting people where they are, going into red states, but you're also not just meeting where they are.

You're showing respect. You're not you're not turning your back because you're looking at electoral map and recent experience say it's just seven swing states, and that's all our need need need to focus on. And I think one of the things the Democratic party absolutely needs to do is we need to respect the fact that we have to represent the American people, and that means all 50 states. And so keeping Howard Dean was right. 50 state strategy.

And just to be candid, as one of the fringe, you know, kinda washed in with the wave in 02/2006 when there was the big democratic wave. It was because of Howard Dean and a few folks that were out there that were saying expand the map. Rahm Emanuel, of all people, was one of them too, said we need to expand the map everywhere. They went into a district that had one Democrat since 1892 and put a little money into it, and I won. And so I think if you want to govern this country, you can't tell Montana they don't matter or Idaho or Mississippi.

And and look. You and I both know this. You also can't tell the Central Valley and things. It it we're not everybody thinks, oh, California is solid. Quite the contrary.

Two thirds of the map is deeply red. I mean, it's, you know, just America only more so in California. More hunters, more ranchers, more farmers, than than other states. And still the largest manufacturing state in America, people forget that as well. So this notion of industrial policy that's workers centered is is is deeply I I appreciate and you're you're going on talking to me.

You know? And I I get frustrated with some of these folks. You know? I get frustrated with the the talking heads and the folks who I think are bad actors. I don't get frustrated with my neighbors who are voting that way.

I don't understand it as well, but I'm trying to get them you know, we have to figure out a way that we're not the Republicans have done a good job of this. We're the enemy now. Now we're in this situation where they see Russians as being more trustworthy than us. Right. You know, that's that's a sad state to be in.

Unbelievable state. Yes. And I don't know again, I don't I don't know if I've got the ability to bring back those 77,000,000. I do believe we've got the ability to get the disenfranchised folks who are seeing the damage here. And I think that's really important because this is truly this isn't about winning elections.

This is about what's best for the country. And you'll never convince me siding with Putin and North Korea is good for the country or fighting a trade war with Canada and Mexico is good for the country. I don't buy it. Yeah. Friends.

And and and what more evidence do we need to underscore this notion of of of these principles than what's happened today with the Alien Enemies Act '17 hundreds, and the deportation and just the evening. I mean, it's ex I mean, this to me, of all the things that has happened during the Trump administration, the notion that you can completely disregard, the federal court, and and literally challenge the court, and we for me, just just blatantly in contempt I think. Of court. I mean, that's that's the the cornerstone of this constitutional democracy. And here's what fascinates me is if if that came up, I watched the Sunday talk shows yesterday.

It was all about what's wrong with the Democratic party. Yeah. And not backdrop. Not something we get in why do we buy their arguments? Why are we fighting fringe red herring issues that get Democrats at Democrats?

That There you go. Democratic activists screaming at other Democrats. How do we and I did it, Gavin. I admitted it. I took the dogs and cats argument and ran right with it, and he sucked me in.

We we have been in these issues where we may not all agree on on all the issue, but we buy their frame. And then you have democrats fighting against democrats, and they sail above it. They sail above it. I mean, so then you don't want me to ask the Schumer question in the shutdown because it falls right into that frame, doesn't it? Yes.

Yes. And and having served in congress, you're an executive. You know what make the hard I put out a budget, and everybody's angry with me. All my friends, you know, including teachers who I'm I'm looking out for them, but you have to do these things. But I think it's in the moment with this.

And and I I look. And this is where Democrats, we actually care about the institutions, and we care about people. Like, you know, my opinion on this is I I believe Chuck a % believes that he made a decision that that reduced the pain and the risk to Americans. I see it now that we're in a point where I think we're in a new world. That pain is coming anyway, and I think with you.

With you. Yeah. And they think we gave up our leverage, and to make it clear who owns this. Because now to the American public who doesn't do this for a living and is out doing their job, they said, well, they passed this budget, and they agreed with Donald Trump, and now we all own that. I think you should have made Donald Trump justify why things were getting so bad, and we as governors would do our best to protect the most vulnerable.

That seemed to me to be the fight we should have had, but I think the public's saying is, you guys weren't even coordinated on that. You know? You weren't We weren't. We weren't. And let me I mean, just let me ask you as a party leader.

Are you I mean, there is this notion people say, well, what's the party doing? Who is the party? And I'm asking you. I'm serious. Is the party the DNC?

Is the party you and Harris? Is the party is it party is it is it Chuck and Hakim? No. Is the who is the party? Is it DGA?

I I'm gonna ask you it again, Gavin. It's not a flippant Vermont. It's the it's the people. And then in a democracy, they send people forward to be able to do this. The party is not leadership.

The party is there to enable. And I know for me, I wouldn't have got elected as a high school teacher with no connections, no political experience if I wouldn't have been able to go to Worthington, Minnesota and meet a woman named Deb Hokanson who already knew how to organize a little get together and put me in front of 40 people and let me give my little speech. I that's what the party was supposed to do. My job was to hear and reflect from them and then take our values and vote for them. And I think we've gotten ourselves in this bind where we think there's gonna be one person.

Now I wanna be very clear about this. It doesn't excuse any of us for not being organized, coordinated, thoughtful, delivering a unified message. And by the way, Tim, we're not doing that, and you know we're not doing that. I don't get calls. I mean, we we don't coordinate.

There's not there's no deep coordinate. Heck, even in our DGA meetings, let's have that conversation. That's we're not even focused on policy. It's nice to see each other. We have those side conversations.

We'll have panels, and we will discuss in some respects some policy. But at the gubernatorial level, when we're all together, we tend to be having tactical conversations about elections. Forgive me, but not the kind of conversations we need. Anybody too. We're probably And we are ironically more unified.

Yeah. We're we're not a caucus. But and again, our our the folks who are out there, whether on social media or the folks at the local coffee shop or whatever, they want us to have a unified message. And here's where I really think they've missed in DEC on this. It does feel to me that despite those numbers, the Democratic Party is unified.

They're unified in being pissed off at the Democratic Party. Oh, yeah. Well, that's true. And they are unified in that Donald Trump's policies are gonna hurt people. So I would argue, Gavin, that there's an argument in here, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna I like him a lot, and I think he's right.

I think Ezra Klein is giving us a bit of a a a road map here. Kicking the butt. Yep. We blindly say all of our democratic institutions and our government institutions are unquestionably working as well as they should. We open it up.

We should be striving to do things better. We should acknowledge. I'm trying to do it here in Minnesota. I'm not gonna cut, you know, safeguards around permitting, but I will be the first to acknowledge it takes us too long to permit projects. There you go.

And it it it bogs down systems. And I started you know, we have to bring people in who look. You're gonna you're gonna cater to corporate interests or whatever. No. I'm trying to make it easier to build a solar field and be able to get that out there.

I'm trying to make it easier for somebody to bring in a new business, but not sacrifice worker safety, environmental safety, and that. And we don't acknowledge that enough, I don't think. There you go. And they and they you know how Republicans are. I'll cut your taxes and, you know, we'll we'll cut government spending.

But now you have all these stories. People saying, well, I voted for Trump, and I wanted them to cut government spending, but I didn't mean me. I didn't mean my stuff. We, as Democrats, have to connect that government does deliver positives, does deliver things, but we also are we're fallible. And and it in some cases, we get in the way.

So say it. Yeah. I loved it. I mean, we'll have by the way, we're gonna have Ezra Klein on the podcast next week talking specifically about this. And, you know, the old No.

It stinks for me because I agree with him on this. I think he's trying to figure out a better way that this isn't an all or nothing. And and this is an advantage for us because Republicans are telling people that all government stinks. You're gonna regret this, and I was down in Iowa when the tornadoes are hitting. It's really good to have weather forecasting.

Really good. And and it makes no sense. So tell that story. It's important. And, look, I mean, for things to change, we have to change, and I think we have to own what you know, we can control the controllables, and that's how we govern and be more effective.

And in so many ways, the world we invented, is competing against us as it relates to the paralysis of analysis and process, years and years, as you say, to to, not just, you know, get a permit, but even to zone a a a solar project. So this is not just about large factories, spewing pollution. This is also about the transition to low carbon green growth, economy. So I I couldn't agree with your sentiment, and and I and I appreciate Ezra and others bringing that up. Let me ask you, though, just broadly, on the issue of the asymmetry, because we keep dancing around this.

And there is an asymmetry in terms of the communication. You talked about how you're perceived after this election despite unprecedented amounts of of money that you guys spent, Harris, Walt, on campaign, trying to define our brand, but how successful they were defining us as opposed to Democrats defining them. It's important to underscore, and I don't think people appreciate this. You look at podcast, nine out of the 10 most influential podcasts skewed to the right. Nine out of 10.

Thank you to the, you know, to Pod Save folks, for for saving us and at least allowing us to fight. You've got 14 of the 15 top rated TV shows. 14 of the 15 are on Fox. You've got Sinclair Broadcasting, that's filling that void with local newspapers with a 85 plus stations, flooding the zone, coordinated attacks. They're staying on message.

They're not allowing distractions to get them distracted, and they're reinforcing, a a message. That's it seems to me, that's to be a wake up call to the Democratic Party to to figure that out. Yeah. No. And I and and look.

It adjacent to this, Voice of America went silent today, which I tell you having listened to Voice of America living in Asia in '89, I found out that the Berlin Wall fell through voice of America. And there's a reason that they didn't want you to hear that when you're living in China because that's pretty threatening to their way of doing things. So I think we haven't conveyed the power of that communication. And as the landscape has changed so greatly because look. I know, you're you're taking a risk doing a podcast, doing something to try and fill a void that's out there, and hopefully trying to use it as a platform to articulate our values to a different or broader audience, but we've not figured this out yet.

And, I don't do I think we'd have won this election if we'd have gone on one of those podcasts? No. No. Probably not. But I don't think we'd have got beat by more.

No. You know what I mean? I don't think I I think it would have been a chance, but I I think any place we can go to talk about our values the the value of these town halls too, Gavin, is is that they they slow things down and you can talk things through. And I think at the end of the day, you start finding out you know, there are people out there saying, well, I didn't really realize that. I didn't see it that way.

But we're as guilty of this too. I wanna go on to places where I get, you know, confirmation bias, which I already believe it. And then Of course. People turn to. We've got to broaden it.

We've got to get to more people. We've got to recognize the disconnect between our policies and how people view them. And I think we always this is just me. I'm gonna say it that I I think somebody's gotta be big and strategic and macro. I just look at every one of these issues through the individual lens, how it's impacting them, and I try and stay in that space.

And and I I'll be the first to admit to you. I view most issues through the eyes of a teacher. It's just who I am. Like, a thing when those kids come in the classroom, that means I view homelessness, food, insecurity, you know, inclusion. I view all of those things through the eye of a teacher, what it means to be in that because I believe that that's the, in America, that's the great hope, the great equalizer, the great experiment.

And so something in there were missing in in a in a pretty big way, obviously. No. And and and hard to argue with with with your your broader frame and and the values, but I think it's just this this idea. I think the biggest and the most alarming part of these polls and, is that people feel we're out of touch. Yep.

And and and despite what I I I thought was an incredibly effective campaign in terms of highlighting the needs of the American people, I thought just the importance of having you on the ticket to articulate exactly what you just articulated really reinforced and underscored, the the benefits of of someone, that is able to, you know, through your lived experience and through your eyes, be able to express what I think the vast majority of people embrace. But, again, they're still not embracing what we're selling. This idea, Gavin. Do you think it's because we appear weak? You think it's Well, I remember what on the Yeah.

Bill Clinton said it better than anyone years and years ago after slacking. Given the choice, I'm paraphrasing, the American people always support strong and wrong versus weak and right. Because I saw it for me, and it I not that I spend much time thinking about this, and it just baffled me how much time they spent trying to attack me that I wasn't, like, masculine enough in their vision. Like, I would have never believed this. I saw Fox News did, like, a couple days because I used a straw, and I'm like, hell, man.

What am I how else do you drink a milkshake type of thing? But they they focused on it obsessively, which I think, again, is their obsession, their weirdness. We buy their frame on these issues of sexuality, you know, and but their whole thing was is that they they spent all their time, these guys, on Fox News that that Walz is gay, he's not masculine, you know, he doesn't coach football the way he should or doesn't what do you what do you think about this? I mean, this is I mean, it's what you see. The the the misogyny in here that's happening.

Yeah. Well, then but this notion of masculinity is is deeply part of it. That's one of the I mean, I think it goes you know, and you can look at the reasons why we've had this sort of dialectic over the me too movement. We've had this dialectic even prior to the me too movement. This notion fight it.

It's and, well, this this notion of I got to kick most of their ass. I do ask if they want it. You know? I know I cannot run them. But I I don't know if we're gonna fall into that place where we wanna, okay.

We challenge you to a to a, you know, a a WWE fight here type of thing. Counterintuitive. It is it's a natural reaction. I think it's one of the reasons we're losing so many men. And, again, it's multiethnic.

It's not just white men. We're losing them. We're losing them to these guys online. We're losing them to people that I'm bringing on this podcast as well. That's why I brought These are bad guys, though.

These are I brought guys. But they exist. And we could deny they exist. They exist. Not only they exist, they persist.

And they're actually influencing young kids every single day. I wish I had a movie. Some of those guys back under a rock is what I I think we have to first understand what their motivations are. I think we have to understand what they're actually doing. And I don't think that's important.

Racism and misogyny? I think there's a lot of that, but I don't think it's exclusively that. When you talk to a guy like Steve Bannon, I you know, he reminded me a little bit of my grandfather when he talks about working folks, and he talks about how we hollowed out the industrial forest country. But he didn't. I understand that.

But so I we can dismiss the notion of of election denialism. We could completely dismiss what he did on January 6, but I don't think you can dismiss, what he's saying. Reminds me a lot of what Bernie Sanders was saying. Reminds me a lot of what Democrats said twenty, thirty years ago. I mean, he's arguing against against Musk.

Right? He hates Musk. He hates Musk. He hates the oligarchy. He totally agrees with you on the concentration of monopolistic powers.

He completely, dismisses the notion that we should extend the tax cuts for corporations and the very wealthy. He thinks we should lower taxes, for the middle class and wants to see increase taxes. I I can't message to misogynists. I can't message that women shouldn't have you. But I think if we say people are misogynists, then we're falling prey.

We're in that frame. Not everybody that disagrees with us is a misogynist. Why do you think that that but I think this notion of I think it's this notion of toxicity and masculinity needs to be separated. And I think it's been conflated, and I think we we we we're gonna have to work on that a little bit. And I think there's look.

There is a crisis some of us scare them. I think I scare them a little bit why they spend so much time on it. But, no, I'm serious because I can fix a truck. They know I'm not bullshitting on this. Yeah.

I'm not putting this in people's grill. I don't know if my identity is not hunting. My identity is not football coaching. My identity is not, you know, a beard and a truck. I like all those things, but how did we get to this where have they figured it out that the identity piece of this is more important than the actual substance behind it?

Well, they've been doing it for decades. I mean, we we've we've saw the welfare queens. They've seen the southern strategy. We've seen it over and over. It's an old playbook, and we're as dumb as we wanna be that we allow them to do this with CRT and ESG and DEI and every three letter word.

And then they demonize people. Yeah. Demonize, and they weaponize grievance. They other people. They talk down to people, pass people.

They humiliate people. They weaponize difficult issues. But the bottom line is, and I think it goes back to what we began with, is, and I applaud you for this, is we cannot continue to be on the defense reacting to this. We gotta go on the offense. We gotta meet people where they are.

But I also think this, and this is where, you know, this is part of the the this the the the conversation I'm trying to have, is you you gotta respect people you disagree with even and you can't just dismiss people. You can't just turn our back on people. What do you burn from those guys? That that not only they have a huge following, there's a rationale. There's a rash look.

For Steve Bannon, I'm not here to defend Steve Bannon. I couldn't agree with you more as it relates to what he did on on on election denialism and, you know, the look. That guy that he is there's we could spend hours and hours going down the rabbit hole, of Steve Bannon. But what he's talking about in terms of populism, what he's talking about in terms of working folks, what he's talking about from a global construct about what's happened to Middle America and rural Americans and why they've lost trust with our party, what he's talking about with what's happening with men in this country and how they've lost their way and how they have significantly higher suicide rates, lives that are, you know, more despair and isolation. I think those are real issues that our party needs to come to grips with.

Their populism went out over ours because I'm I'm actually a prairie populist. I, you know, that's where I think we but I think we stopped talking about those things. We're not talking about what's going on with men in this my my wife did a documentary called The Mask You Live In fifteen years ago, was talking about these things. Somehow, I don't know what happened. The party never picked up on these core things.

There's trend line. I mean, Scott Galloway gets it. He's, you know, he's he's a good good guy across the board. There's a crisis of men and masculinity in this country. And that's a hard thing for Democrats because we wanna lift up women.

We wanna lift up the oppressed. We wanna lift up the congress. Red, as we lift up, I always use this analogy that there's a whole bunch of people, Gavin, that see rights like a pie. If somebody gets some, they lose part of their pie. Yeah.

Ridiculous. Not that way. Expanding rights that there's no one. I I keep coming back to that idea and this idea of of of freedom that, well, that can be everybody. I don't know why they're in these small, little, narrow, divisive issues other than I think some of these people are masterful at it so they can get to their true goal, which is to cut taxes for the wealthy and shift shift wealth in their direction.

Yeah. And by the way, concurrently, increased taxes for the middle class and the poor, and people forget that. Some of the highest tax play I mean, I I live in a state like your state, was a I mean, look. Exactly. By the way, which what Bannon is arguing for, which is interesting and ironic considering some of the punditry.

But let me just, you know, make this point because it needs to be made. In Florida and Texas, they tax their poorest more than we tax our our rich. That's a % correct. The hell are we losing this tax debate? Yes.

Who are you for? %. You'll pay me. I mean, they have other high tax states, apparently. Yeah.

Well And they have higher infant mortality, higher maternal mortality, lower wages. They have lower insured. Lower expected. Every Yeah. And by the way, 71 I'm gonna keep going.

71% of the economy in this country are in metro, blue metro. So point being, we we it's not that we're not right, but I think we're wrong not to understand more deeply and fully that people think we are deeply full of ourselves, and we're talking down to people and past people. People wanna be protected. They wanna be respected, and they wanna be connected. And I think this notion of respect is something that keeps coming back to me.

People that that just feel like we don't respect them. And I think that's true that we're gonna and and and lay down a clear marker that that you're you're not gonna demonize LGBTQ people. We're not gonna Yeah. Happen. How do we lay that marker down?

Because because I'm not gonna get into their their space with them of that that's what a man looks like, you know, demonizing these that that how do we stay firm, show that we're we're committed, and and not compromise on those values that we care about? I mean, we continue to do what we you and I have done. We've led the nation in terms of of laws, anti discrimination laws. We have the back of our diverse communities. We don't just rhetorically say that.

We've done it through laws and regulations. We stand firm. At the same time, you know, with respect, and this is where, obviously, I've, you know, I've I've kind of it's not like it even a break. I just think there's there are areas where, we may overreach, and I think we have to acknowledge that as well. And if you don't acknowledge that, then I think you're gonna lose people on everything else.

I mean, I looked at the issue of gay marriage. And remember, I was in 02/2004 when our party was dismissing me because I sat, and I said it was wrong to deny, people the right to get married or that they weren't of the same sex. And my party vehemently opposed that, and they were very vocal about it. The major leaders in our party I remember this. I ran on it in 02/2006 in a conservative district.

God bless you. Mary, it's good. Principle. Stood on principle. So I'm happy that enough right now?

What's that? Are we not doing that enough right now? No. We are doing that. We continue to do that.

I think we're firm in our foundation in terms of supporting our diverse communities. It's not that. I think there's a broader message, and there's a whole there's a whole world out there that's not just about protecting, those rights. It's about also acknowledging the pain that other people are feeling that often are not part of our rhetoric and our agenda. And that's what I think we need to explore.

I think you're hitting on. I'm I'm curious to listen. I wanna listen to Ezra next week because because I think that's the other thing that I think we talk a lot and we have to deliver more. You've delivered. I think we've delivered in Minnesota, and I've seen this.

When you deliver on things that improve people's lives, it's amazing how good the politics is behind that if you have good policies and and get things done. And part of that is I think where Ezra's getting that is is is do your best work, but acknowledge, you know, really, this agency is not doing that much for people. I mean, like, I'm doing this thing. Just just simple things to make them getting their driver's license easier. You and I both deal with this, the DMV.

Like, I'm I'm trying to find why why do we make them go every year? Maybe we should go every two years. You know? Just something that people wanna see. We did this thing where you can now get your license tabs, through a vending machine at Cub Foods.

So you just go up there, takes you two minutes, you put in your stuff, and it spits out your tabs, you put your tabs on. That one to me is is conservatives are like, good. I didn't have to deal with government. It was efficient. It was easy.

But that was government, but it was good functioning government. That's it. And that's that's we so you were DOGE before DOGE without the pejorative sense of DOGE, which is not about that. It's about that's about recklessness. That's just about destroying the administrative state.

But what you're talking about is government efficiency, focusing on outcomes, not just inputs, meeting customers where they are, which I love. And that's gotta be part of our core messaging. And I think that's our challenge with Doge, is we're reacting to Doge by saying it's all terrible, which it it has been to date, but this notion of government efficiency, people don't well formed because people believe that. And, look, it's been forty years since, you know, your predecessor Reagan told them, you know, you don't wanna see government government. Government can be a great force of good, whether it's protecting your personal rights, whether it's innovation.

Look. Good for SpaceX. I hope they succeed, but let's be clear. SpaceX stands on the shoulders of NASA giants, and that's our taxpayer dollars that did that. There are great things, but I've always been a firm believer.

We can do the research, send it into the private sector, let them improve, you know, monetize it, and help people as long as there's guardrails. I think we find ourselves now pushing back anything that's business oriented. We're kinda negative too. I feel I'm hearing it from the business community. Look.

Yep. Like, they're they don't like Trump right now. They're not being courageous enough, in my opinion, to speak out, but they don't like this. But they also say, well, I don't hear a lot from you guys saying that, you know, your these businesses added to the cultural, you know, tapestry of Minneapolis by far. I I thought I I thought it was a master class.

It offended all of us. It offended me, but, also, I thought it was a master class to have all those folks up there on stage. I mean, Trump was able to communicate without saying a word, his support, for free enterprise. The same same time it was I thought, you know, it was kind of humiliating for those folks that felt they had to be there. You think it was fear that they were up there for, though?

Yeah. Of course. I mean, they had to fall in line. I mean, this guy doesn't play by any rules, and that's why he has more options. Democrats can't come by fear.

But I've said this Gavin, I taught fourth grade. Fear is a incredible short term motivator. That's right. You change behaviors though for the long run. What are we gonna have to do?

You know, you feel this excitement. You have these rallies, but what's that translating into? You know, what's that turning into? Well, I think I mean, look. Back to, I think, this forensic, it's not just tactical.

It's not just about, you know, how we can sort of just stretch and get another twenty, thirty thousand votes in these swing states. I mean, I think it's I think it's an opportunity for us to address some of the issues we just discussed. I love that you said this. You can't be pro job and anti business. I mean, you you made a case for entrepreneurialism and innovation and research and development.

I love that. I want the democrats to talk more about that. I want us to talk more about not begrudging people's success, but celebrating success. I I used to be the aspirational party. I wanna talk about patriotism and pride, not just our and and and and sorry, God, but just, you know, back to Clinton.

I love what Bill Clinton said when he talked about community opportunity and responsibility. I think we don't talk enough about responsibility. And I appreciated the opportunity agenda. I appreciate our focus on community and building community. But what about responsibility?

What about service? What about civics? What about these notions of things that bind us together? Yeah. All our interesting differences.

We're good at focusing on interesting differences. But what about the things that unite us together? I think that's what people wanna hear from our party. Part of something. That's why they're on with Trump.

They're part of some they're part of a team. I've always said this. In high school, I I did everything. I coached all the sports. I worked on the play, the musical.

I I I sponsored the student trips. I built the prom. I did all of that because what I understood was is kids will gravitate to groups and it's better to be in the musical than in a gang. It's better to be with this group of kids in school. So we know this if a kid is part of something they do that and I'm telling you this disenfranchisement with men, this not being there, whatever, they might have played on football teams.

I think Trump's gives them that feeling that I'm on the team. I wear the same colors. I do all this. I don't look. You can laugh all you want about red hats.

People like those damn things, don't they? And maybe some of it's sticking it in our grill, but I think it's being part of something bigger than themselves. And right now, the Democratic party doesn't feel like something bigger than themselves have come and that's our whole goal, community. I love it. No.

Look. And that's why I'm such a believer in service, such a believer in shared experiences, and I just copy what you did on the service stuff. I said, Stanley McChrystal, you, there's a few folks out there talking about this. You know, you service learning and these types of things, stuff I've been interested in too. From the teacher perspective, if you do that, you are so engaged in your community.

Now we celebrate and we rightfully should those who join and serve in the military, but there's numerous ways to serve your country. You got it. It's not in uniform, and and I'm thinking as we become more fragmented, our media becomes more fragmented, our TV becomes more fragmented, people want to be part of something. I think Trump knew that before us and he he brought them into that and I you know, that's why you in the catchphrases and stuff, it may seem cheesy, but we're missing it. It.

We're missing where people are not wanting to become part of something. I I I said the universality of this notion of being protected and respected, but back to your point, % agree, connected. We all need to be connected. There's an unmooring that's going on in society. There's there's I mean, people just feel lost.

They feel more isolated. They feel more alone. And, again, particularly for young men. And so I just think we have to acknowledge that. We have to address that.

We have to be sensitive to that, and we have to be willing to have those conversations and not feel like we're playing into the right wing when we're having those conversations. And the politics will follow that. The politics will follow that. Yeah. And it's it's and it the politics go back to what you said, which I love, man.

It's just the principle. Like, what I love about you and, you know and we're out of time, so I'm just gonna end with just just mad respect, is you're a man of principle. You're a man of values. You're a decent and honorable person. Forget the politician.

What I love about the politician, governor Walz, is that you're all of those things I just said before the word politician. And and so I I just I think I I appreciate it. No. And and we'll we'll find the political way back, but but I think we have to have some humility in terms of where we are, and and I think we we can't be I just think we have to be careful about being too dismissive, of where they are and the progress they've made. And I know I know you you broadly agree with that, and I I think the vast majority of people do.

But I think we're this is an existential moment. And and our unit our unity against Trump is not increasing our trust. It's not helping the democratic brand. You know, the more we attack Trump, which is great I mean, we've got to do it. We gotta hold him to account.

And people are you hear it. What did you say? The primal screams. Yeah. We gotta offer them something.

We gotta offer them But we have to exactly. And that's what we need to, I think. That's that's that's the soul searching that we need. Be their we have to be the Vikings to their Packers is what I would say, Gavin. You know what I'm saying?

So we we we gotta get people in, and I think I would say to your listeners and everybody out there that that we're gonna have to ruffle feathers. We as Democrats aren't gonna agree on everything, but our values are still there, and we have to figure out how to have that. And I would ask, you know, a frustrated and scared, to be honest with you, scared electorate, to stay engaged. They are. That's what they're showing up those town halls.

And then I would encourage our folks to listen and rise to the moment, and and do the things that that we need to do to get back, not to win elections, but to influence policy in a positive way. So I'm grateful. I know you got a big job. You, you govern a country, and that's good. And that's And you and I both have day jobs, which we can't forget.

But look, this notion of a big tent, a big tent, that's what that's what built the middle class in the fifties, sixties, and seventies. What's brought us Medicaid and Medicare. That's what brought us the minimum wage as we know it today. It was a big tent every month. Lean into labor unions.

Let's have it. And bring and labor. It's gotta be workers' center. Industrial policy that's workers' center. That's Tim Waltz, my guest today here on the get this is Gavin Newsom.

Thank you, governor. It's great to have you. Thanks so much.