Transcription
Palestinians don't matter. You know, it's their fault for being Palestinian, and for being Muslim, and for being uh, in Gaza, and um, you know, that way that the that the killing can just continue. And meanwhile, the people that we really have to cater to the feelings of are, you know, rich white American Jews, um, who, you know, like Cheryl Sandberg, who believes in her heart of hearts that she is being persecuted and needs to be protected. Um, those are the real victims here. Yeah. In case like uh, her three like her like seven different homes. Yeah. Um, net worth of what $5 billion or something? Yeah. In case I can't protect her, will somebody hide her please?
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Hello everyone, I'm Rana Call, and this is Dispatches. As Israel continues to wage its live stream genocide in Gaza, backed by the world's most powerful governments, many have finally broken from the narratives that uphold it. One of the voices who's helped expose the lies is Norah Barrows Freriedman of the Electronic Antifa. She's been unapologetically clear about where the priority lies at this moment. It's not about saving Israel's morality or even saving the Jewish soul. It's about stopping the genocide. We'll talk about that stance, the backlash, and the uncomfortable truths about Zionist indoctrination, anti-semitism, media complicity, and why so many feel powerless in the face of it all. But before we jump into it, this is just part of this episode. The full interview is available to Breakthrough News members only. You can become a member at patreon.com/breakthroughnews. And as always, be sure to hit the subscribe button and the bell so you get notification whenever we post new content. And if you appreciate this show, you can also donate below on YouTube.
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Welcome back to the show, Nora Barrows Freedman. It is such an honor to get to chat with you.
Oh, it's always an honor for me, Rana. Thank you so much for all the work that you do.
Oh, I love like this mutual admiration, but it's it's very genuine. Like we're not bullshitting here. I you you guys at the electronic and tifat have been always indispensable, but I don't I I you know I think that history is just going to be full of the reports you all have been doing because there's no other outlet that has been on just this issue exposing lies reporting from the ground, and we'll talk about um, some of the reports from the ground because so many of your colleagues have actually been targeted in this horrific genocide, has have been just so many people in Gaza, we don't even know the death toll. But I want to I want to start um, in the best place, which is the most controversial place to start. Uh, and you know, I I love I love having you on like anytime you can come on, but one of the reasons I reached out to you this time is because I saw this video making the rounds of you. Um, I think you were on maybe it was was it I I don't I was Oh, is a podcast. One of the I mean one of my fave podcast, Antimpire podcast with Justin Potter, also excellent, but you were on East is a podcast, also fantastic, everybody should check it out, and you were talking about how you just don't give a [ __ ] anymore about saving the Jewish soul, right, and and and you were saying in the context of like Gaza is the priority right now um, and a lot of these conversations end up revolving around like oh we have to save like what's left of Judaism, we have to say like save like the morals and It all sounds really nice, but there's a kind of self-centeredness to that in the midst of a genocide. So, I guess I'm just going to let you take it from here. What brought you to that point? You know, was there a moment that that's kind of Chris Lester for you? I mean, you've you've since I've known you've been as anti-ionist Jewish as you can get. Um, and that's always like been a part of your identity. Um, but you know what what what has brought you to the point where you where you're just kind of like I just don't care about like this identity issue anymore and I'm like it's it's ridiculous.
Yeah. Well, like like you said, I've always been anti-ionist. I was raised in an anti-ionist uh household. Um, I, you know, I I just I never had any, um, any sort of affiliation with Israel, you know, familiarly. Um I so and I've always you know especially over the last you know 25 years of doing um journalism focusing on Palestine um I just you know I just never um brought like my identity into the work I do because I think it's irrelevant. you know, there's a lot of people that um say because I'm, you know, because I'm Jewish, I do this work, you know, Palestine organizing and activism. And I think that's great. I think, you know, everyone, no matter who they are, um should be involved in ending this genocide and and dismantling the Zionist project. Um, but I think I I think so I I you know I've just never like I've never been particularly um interested in emphasizing any part of my identity other than an anti-imperialist um and someone who believes that um that Israel is a settler state and should be uh dismantled. Um, so you know there over the past 20 months of this genocide I've I've seen a lot of people um who are Jewish, who are anti-ionist um you know just talk about how this genocide is um I mean I'm s I'm simplifying the words but but in essence like this is really bad for the Jews. Um this is you know this makes us look bad the you know that this like 120 year 30 40 year conflation um because of Zionism as an ideology of trying to um you know marry Judaism and and this political ideology Zionism together is bad um for Jews and and I and I I think I just got to this point where I'm like no no this Zionism is not bad. You know, it it we why are we still centering um Jewish identity in in this time at this place? If you want to save Judaism from itself, from this conflation that the Zionists have imposed on it, um do it in your communities. I I you know, that's fine. I I don't you know, that should be done. That's that's a huge um mission to accomplish is is trying to extricate Zionism especially from Western um you know American, Canadian, European Jewish communities. That's great. And and obviously you know where it needs to be dismantled first is in occupied historic Palestine. But I I was just like I don't you know there's I think I was just hearing a lot from from friends and and um you know acquaintances and people in the community um about the importance of of of really you know of saving Judaism and and and you know people h coming to this realization finally that you know Zionism is um is a colonial political ideology. And I just I think I'm just in in anguish. I think I'm I just hit a point. And that that little like clip that went I don't know semiviral um was like kind of taken out of context a little bit. I mean, you know, I love Cena. Um but I was kind of like, why did you take that one clip? because it was in the context of a conversation that four of us um who who are Jews were having about this very topic about um about the the the ways in which um you know western Jewish communities even the ones who are working against this genocide and are working to disentangle Zionism from Judaism there's still a tendency to kind of like center identity and Jewishness in that work. And I just I think I'm just I'm so I I think I'm just so tired of hearing about it. Um I you know the the the goal right now should be you know focusing on the genocide in Gaza and um and so that's kind of where that like little clip came from. It wasn't. And it's weird because like people kind of took it in very different ways. Um there were people who are like, you know, um thinking that I I somehow um were was like being anti-semitic um by saying like I don't care. I don't have um any, you know, I don't want to put my identity in the center of this struggle. Um I don't, you know, it I'm not doing this because of a sense of like obligation due to my Jewishness. Um I'm not interested in like trying to reframe Judaism. That's not my fight. It can be someone else's fight. I'm I'm not interested in it anymore. I don't care how bad Jews feel right now um because what is happening uh in Gaza is is is the worst thing anybody can ever imagine. And people there have been suffering like on on a level that that is not recorded anywhere else in modern history. And I I just I just want it to stop. And um so I got people, you know, saying that like I somehow was like being very anti-Semitic and I I hate Jewish people, which is like that's not exactly what I said at all. That's not at all what I said. And I am Jewish and I'm not saying that I'm like not Jew. I like I don't understand that. But then I also got people calling me a Zionist or like thinking that I was a Zionist. um who's now realizing I know it was totally so I I oh like you just came to this conclusion like I just came to this conclusion okay people so it was just ridiculous and I was again I'm like no like it was in this ironic way that somehow I became like the center of and I was like no do not perceive me I am I don't I don't like I have I don't want to be This is not about me. Again, I am not um I I do not want anything to do with this conversation. Um I mean, you know, in in kind of like the the the larger sense of the word, like this is about Palestine. This is about Gaza. The focus should be on destroying Zionism as an ideology. Um and however that needs to be done.
Totally. That's it.
No, I I hear you. I hear you. And you know, I I I I totally get what you're saying in the sense of like look, I I think there's very much value in having people we have to we need people who are Jewish to be like saying as a Jewish person, I think, because of the fact that Jewish identity has been weaponized by Zionism and by imperialism to say anything against Israel's anti-Semitic, blah blah blah blah. And so it is very important to be able to basically like expose and uh debunk the very mainstream framing that is like shoved down everybody's faces uh from every major media outlet all the time which is that the prop palestine movement is full of vicious anti-semitism. It's like Nazi Germany and yada yada yada. So it's super important. Like I I I you know I know one of the critiques of like uh the movie The Encampments which Breakthrough News produced which I'm very Ali Abonima your your colleague appeared in. It was incredible. People should go see it if they haven't. I mean it was a a very marginal critique but it's like they spent too much time you know talking about you know Jews who were involved to to show that it wasn't anti-semitic. And it's like well you have to because the entire mainstream media apparatus is telling is telling the public that this is an anti-semitic movement when it's not. So it is important to to have that aspect. That said, it's also like okay, like you are not, you know, it's Grant Miner who appears in the encampments who was um actually fired uh from his position uh heading the student union, wonderful person at Columbia University and fired from his teaching position for his role in uh the encampment at Columbia last year. You know, he I saw him make this uh give this speech um when I was in New York a couple months ago. Um, and it was a really great speech. And he made the point of saying, you know, like yes, as a Jew, I feel like compelled because he was born, you know, he was raised in a Zionist family and like he's, you know, had to like unlearn a lot of things and he's like, as a Jew, I do feel obligated to like use my voice on this issue, but also like as a human, but also just because I'm Jewish doesn't give me special insight. Like Jews don't have special insight. It doesn't they're not like magical and like understanding settler colonialism. like it's like it's this double-edged sword in a way. And I'm kind of rambling here, but I get I get what you're saying and I understand like also, you know, as an Arab, it does get frustrating when it's like in these kind of anti-ionist spaces sometimes anti-inist Jewish spaces. I appreciate what everyone is doing. But yeah, on my list of like priorities, like saving Judaism for from Zionism is not the top of my priority list. Is that something I think is important? Sure. It's not really my fight and I totally get it. Um, just like I understand like Muslims during ISIS days felt compelled to like distance themselves from ISIS and demonstrate that this is not the same thing and on and on and on like and I think Israel is kind of comparable to that ISIS example. Um, yes. So I get the desire to do that but it's just like does that need to be the topic of discussion all the time? No. And it it is a little annoying when it gets you know more attention sometimes than like the actual genocide itself.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's all I was saying is that um that Yeah. Yeah. You know, the Jewish people should not be afforded some special insight um because again that kind of also emphasizes the conflation of Judaism and Zionism and we need to be separating them as much as possible. But also, we shouldn't be saving Judaism from Zionism without also saving the entire world from Zionism. It's not a Jewish uh thing. It's an imperialist thing. It's a it's a worldwide um problem, a catastrophe of power and set settler colonialism and empire and um slaughter and and so this is not you know I I don't I don't want to take the bait that the Zionists have set up um by conflating Judaism and Zionism to say that this is just a Jewish problem. this is a and and just Jews have to solve this. This is a a a global struggle against empire, against Zionism, against um this genocide. And so, you know, it's a very um I don't know. I kind of think like there's uh there's there's so much um you know, that that kind of seems complicated to articulate um because it has been conflated and that's what we're trying to struggle against. But but not not because I'm I I I um you know have any special um interest because I'm Jewish. I have the interest because I'm a a person a human person who sees what's happening and um we should all be struggling against Zionism.
Totally. And obviously like you know anti-semitism is is being used uh by the state to protect or defend or cover for a genocide is being used by the US by the imperialist countries. Um and it's completely warped the conversation about what anti-semitism actually is.
Right. Yeah. And you know I'm not denying that there's people who are anti-semitic out there. There absolutely are. But the thing about anti-semitism is it's not institutionalized.
That's great. It's fantastic. We don't want anti-semitism to be institutionalized. It has historically in recent history been institutionalized. It no longer is. And that is fantastic. Right. Um absolutely. But but at the same time, you do have this situation where like Zionism is basically playing into anti-semitic stereotypes in order to protect Israel. And that's the uncomfortable part of it is in that process, right? Israel and its defenders are actually feeding into anti-Semitic stereotypes. And again, on my hierarchy of things that are the most important, this is somewhere up there, but it's not at the top. Ending the genocide comes first and foremost, right? But you do have people like in positions of power saying the craziest things so openly. Like I know you saw this clip, Nora, and I'm going to play it. I I don't know what convention this was at. Like I don't know if it was a JNS convention or I thought it for some reason was like the Republican Jewish Committee convention, but I could be wrong. But this guy who's like the head of the JNS is speaking and he makes this insane statement that I'm going to show the clip of, but I actually I felt uncomfortable tweeting what this guy like retweeting what this guy said because it sounded so anti-semit like so playing into anti-semitic stereotypes. Um, but anyways, here I'm going to share my screen real quick so I can show you this so show this to the audience. Here he is. Norm Coleman. Here we go. Oh god. Right here. Majority of Gen Z have an unfavorable impression of Israel. And my friends, I think the reason of that is that we're losing the digital war. Okay. They're getting their information from Tik Tok and and whatever it is. And we're losing that war. When you think about it, the masters of the universe are Jews. You know, we we've got Alman at ASI, we got Zuckerberg, we got Sergey Brin, we got the whole the group across the board. Yan Combmes, you know, head founded WhatsApp. It's us. And we have to figure out a way to win the digital battle. A millia, we got to get our digital sneakers on so that the truth can prevail over the lies. And when we do that, the future of Israel will be stronger because a majority of of of all Americans will support Israel. We'll make that happen. and we have to make it happen. Thank you, Barach. Thank you. So, actually, I was I was wrong. He's like a former US senator, I guess, as well. Norm Coleman. Yeah, this Norm Coleman guy. But, okay, so he's like talking about Masters of the Universe, and I saw that I was just like, "What the hell is wrong with you, dude?" And again, like I felt super uncomfortable again, like even retweeting what this guy is saying. At that same conference, you had Jorda Cutler, who is a former adviser to the Loot party. She's now in this senior position at Meta overseeing Jewish diaspora affairs. She actually just um after watching his uh Instagram stories, Michael Scherzer uh on Instagram, Jordana Cutler like had his account suspended. Uh Michael Schzer, Jewish comedian uh American uh anti-ionist. So you've got the head of Jewish diaspora affairs at Meta basically shutting down Jewish accounts in the diaspora that she doesn't like, right? All while Meta is like coordinating with Israel. Um and she also spoke at this conference and basically talked about using her position to censor uh anti-IS what she called anti-Israel content. Um, and so I'm just, this is somebody another person basically giving off the perception that Jews are in powerful positions and they are using them to protect Israel and to enforce Zionism. And yet we're also the eternal victims and we are victims of hate hatred and we're victims of um, you know, this uh, this there's perception of anti-semitism um, that doesn't actually exist. Um, but so we're we're both we're both the masters of the universe um and also uh in danger. So I don't know which one it is that we're supposed to be. Um but it is very convenient that they have this cudgel of uh perceived anti-semitism which again is not institutionalized and does not exist um to silence people who are uh in opposition to a genocide being administered by the Israeli government which is the colonial tip of the US empire spear. Um, it is just it's like it's astonishing. Your head goes like in circles around this. How how can these two opposite things be the same be you know be exist at the same time and people just go along with it? And this also feeds into this like um you know into this this thing amongst American Jews uh in Zionist communities who say that um you know we are under attack that that Jewish people are just you know one step away from another holocaust and that holocaust is going to be perpetrated by people who are quote anti-Israel. um a complete warped perception of reality. Like you said, there is no institutionalized anti-semitism. Um you know, I can't, you know, I I I I am very lucky in that if I want to apply for a home loan. Um I won't be discriminated against because I'm Jewish. I, you know, I won't I won't be discriminated against in in university applications. um I won't be discriminated against in terms of uh jobs that I can do. My grandparents were and and that was part of, you know, American racism and and anti-semitism. it was institutionalized and people fought very hard to have that um overturned. And and now people think that that by criticizing and working against a a a genocide being perpetrated against indigenous people in Palestine um using Judaism as a cover. Um, and you know that that somehow American Jews are in danger and are
Victims and must be protected at the fullest extent of the law, while also being, uh, at the very top levels of government and technology and um, you know, university administrations. It doesn't make sense. But this is this is really their worldview, which is um, completely insane.
Yeah, it's also like, okay, so at the same time, you've got the Trump administration, uh, you know, I we can critique DEI like in and you know, from the leftist critique of like, did they actually like do anything to address injustices and like inequality? Not really. It was sort of like sugar coating over it for corporate America. However, you've got the Trump administration basically like taking apart, getting rid of DEI for everybody—black people, Latinos, women, whatever, like every minority that actually, when you look at the numbers, is institutionally discriminated against, right?
Well, at the same time being like, "but Jews who are doing very well," and again, no one's saying that's a bad thing. Like, no one's saying we're mad Jews are doing well. It's great that you, Nora, are not facing the same discrimination that your grandparents did. That's fantastic. I wish that for all the other people who are still a part of facing that sort of discrimination. But like the fact of the matter is that this group that is the opposite of being discriminated against is being lifted up to protect a genocide, to protect American imperialism in the name of protecting this group that doesn't actually need the that that institutional protection because they're already institutionally doing great, while every other group that's doing very poorly is having any help that is afforded to them stripped away. And so that's also another massive contradiction.
You know, from what you're saying, it kind of reminds me of when they talk about Iran and they're like, "Iran is both um about to get a nuclear weapon and destroy the whole world because they're so powerful, but also the Iranian regime is about to collapse." Yes. Because it's so weak. It's like, right, whatever narrative you want to pull on to prove your point. I mean, it's perfect because then you can never be wrong, right? Like that's that's how empire works is that you create this nar—you destroy a country or a people or a region or an economy—um, and then you say that see that that country is is weak, that country is on the verge of collapse—um, but they're so powerful and strong and evil that we have to keep, you know, occupying, besieging, sanctioning—um, I mean it's it's a perfect uh, you know, a perfect metric that that anyone anyone in in actual power can use—um, to keep uh to keep their power uh going.
I mean, and it's I just I'm I'm like befuddled when when normally smart, intelligent people do not still don't understand uh the paradigm, the the the essence of of Western imperialism that that can um be allowed to still just pass, you know, along the headlines of the New York Times or the Washington Post or on Rachel Maddow or whatever, and people just still absorb it, you know, like, "Oh, China, you know, Iran, Russia, all of these, you know, scary countries that want to do ex, you know, apparently what the US and the Europeans are actually doing to them."
Um, and and the same goes for Palestinians. The Palestinians are um are are are subhuman, and they've been so dehumanized and and uh Islam has been so you know so um uh you know misunderstood, but also become a a a perfect scapegoat. Um, so, so it's so you know the the killings that are happening in Gaza are more like a natural disaster than they are an actual premeditated um slaughter carried out by people um, you know, being armed and and emedded by us. Uh, they don't matter. It, you know, the Palestinians don't matter. You know, it's their fault for being Palestinian and for being Muslim and for being uh in Gaza and um you know that way that the that the killing can just continue. And meanwhile, the people that we really have to cater to the feelings of are, you know, rich white American Jews, um, who, you know, like Cheryl Sandberg, who believes in her heart of hearts that she is being persecuted and needs to be protected. Um, those are the real victims here.
Yeah. In case like uh her three like her like seven different homes. Yeah. Um, net worth of what $5 billion or something. Yeah. In case that can't protect her, will somebody hide her, please?
You know, it's it's funny, Nora, because the idea that, you know, the worst like, okay, so like I'm, you know, as as a person who I grew up Arab. I still am Arab. Um, and as an Arab, you know, I've lived my whole life under the most grotesque stereotypes imaginable, right? Terrorist, savage, subhuman. Why people throw gay people off of roofs and hate women so much and you know are just so brutal and uncivilized and backwards and camels and desert and you know dictators and zero you know just on and on—honor killings—like everything, all of the worst things—like let's nuke them, they're cockroaches, they're monkeys, they're disgusting—right? That's what I grew up with, so for me it's like the idea that the worst stereotype Jews face is you're too rich and powerful. I mean, like I will happily trade. I I would I would I mean, I'm not trying to like make I I know this like historically has been very bad, but like I'm not trying to like make light of the past, but by God, I would if I could trade everything I had to grow up hearing for "you have too much money." That would be I' I would love to be told that. Please think I have too much money and power. That sounds awesome.
But no, in all seriousness, I mean, that's a good dark joke, but it's it's and I'm so sorry that happened to you, right? Like, I'm so sorry. It is so disgusting that that is the reality that that American Arabs grew up with without any sort of protection institutionally, without anyone saying in positions of power that's not right. And that is disgusting. And we won't tolerate this. And we will go and and root out, you know, that that disgusting hatred against you just because of where you're from and the language you speak and the religions you practice, you know, like I'm so sorry. And and the fact that that that Jews in the US who are so protected are still, you know, allowed to have a modicum of—um not a modicum, what am I saying?—are are allowed to have, you know, this entire blanket of—of of of pity and and—and um and saying, you know, we will, you know, I'm so sorry. The MIT valedictorian, you know, speech—um you know, was was harmful to you even though it said nothing about Judaism, nothing about Jews as a people, as a tradition, as a culture, as a religion. It was talking about Zionism, right? These students who are organizing at great risk to their to their educational and professional careers are talking about Zionism and having it thrown back in their face as they're being uh uh uh you know anti-semitic and they're being bigoted against Jews when when what we're seeing on a daily basis is uh is actual violence against not just Palestinians in Gaza but Palestinian Americans. The six-year-old uh Wadia, you know, in Chicago in October 2023. I I believe it was right after the beginning of the genocide who was stabbed by his neighbor. I I mean, I just like it is is still so heinous and hideous to me to see how much hatred and bigotry and racism has been normalized in this country against Arabs, against Palestinians, Muslims, and and and how that's still being just glossed over and any perceived real or perceived believed slight against Jewish Americans in positions of privilege especially—um is you know the end of the world and and it and it it receives condemnations from people in high positions of power and I'm just I I I think this is why you know I I kind of went on that rant. I'm I'm sick I'm sick of that. I'm sick of that um that I, you know, complete inversion of reality.
I mean, yeah, the fact that there was a six-year-old who was stabbed to death and it just kind of like got lost in the mix is crazy. And there were those three like 19-year-olds in Vermont who were shot. Uh I I think they were mostly I think they were Palestinian—um American and they were just wearing keffiyehs and they were shot and like we never heard about that story again. It's just so normalized. Like even even in for me, it's so normalized to me where I'm just like, "Yeah, that happened," and we get and we moved on because it's so normalized. It's so horrific. And you know, we we have to think like watching all of these images of Palestinians being dismembered and, you know, parts of their insides outside of their bodies and watching them be starved and hunted and treated like cattle and all of the just, you know, worst atrocities ever for the last 20 months. How much it's normalized violence against Arabs in our minds in ways we don't even mean to normalize.
And then, you know, just like to what you were saying, Nora, it's really frightening how many people around us are genocidal. And I don't want to make it sound like there aren't people who aren't because the there are a lot of people who are not genocidal, and they're demonstrating that all the time, and we're going to talk about that as well. Um, but it's scary how many are. And it's I mean, not just people in power who make insane, you know, statements like, "Let's nuke Gaza." Like that psycho Randy Fine.
Randy Fine.
Yeah. Or like Lindsey Graham who like is hoping that Greta Thunberg drowns because she's doing a Gaza Freedom flotilla. She's on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. More power to you, Greta Thunberg. You're amazing. Um, but it's like not just those freaks, but just people in general. It's like shocking and scary. Just your average person is like so easily indoctrinated to be like, "Yeah, genocide, like industrial-scale slaughter on purpose is totally fine." Um, and yeah, that's just like a commentary on society, but I want to ask you, you know, you did not grow up in a Zionist household, so you can't I know you can't speak of this from personal experience, but I think another uncomfortable thing that we we need to unpack and and and you guys, the electronic and defa do talk about this at times is, and Ali Abunimah makes a does a really good job of of the way he frames it is when we talk about the way that Jews in America specifically are targeted with this indoctrination because they are literally being used by American imperialism to, you know, be at the tip of the spear of empire in the Middle East, right? And that requires, you know, indoctrination on so many levels, whether it's through summer camps, through synagogues across the country. I've had Zachary Foster on this show before who's talked about um the politicization of synagogues in America. Many of them were like Israel's like at the heart and center of it and how much it's really distorted—um Judaism uh in North America. Um, again, not the top of my priority list, but it is an important thing to be dealt with, right? To the point where you have this, you know, kids from Michigan, um, growing up in that environment and then deciding to go join, uh, an apartheid army, uh, IDF on the other side of the world, um, and tie themselves to this genocidal state as we saw with the with the Israeli American who was released by Hamas last month, um and you know uh in a goodwill gesture towards the US that of course like the US still didn't do a ceasefire. But I guess all that's to say, you know, how do we begin to untangle that in the US or in in North America when the is like Israel has become so deeply fused with Jewish identity. Is there even like a way out of that? It's a really good question.
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