Transcription
Uh, if we're going to multiply Disciples of Jesus, we do need to address the issue of temptation and sin. It'd be nice if it wasn't a problem at all, if it just kind of took care of itself, but it is lurking at the door. I think the pitfall here is that it's very easy to continue in habitual sin while we're following Jesus, or we see habitual sin in others and we don't necessarily have a great way, as we're discipling them, to teach them how to fight that and how to how to come out of it.
Welcome back everybody. It is incredible to be back with you this week on the Disciplemakers podcast. We've got my co-host Jason Ishmamail.
That's me.
That is me.
Thanks for saying my name correctly. You're I was going to go Ishmael, something like that, but it it just didn't come out right. But it's it's not even correctly. You're supposed to introduce I don't even know how it's supposed to you've not reciprocated the introduction. This is uh this is the the venerable, the one, the only, whatever Josh Howard.
Oh, thank you.
Oh, you said it incorrectly. I app I appreciate that. Howard. Howard. Um, well, we are going to chat about another pitfall in this episode.
What a downer.
I know, right? Everybody's like, "Come on, can we not have a a pick-me-up rather than a tear-me-down?" Um, but on this journey of really seeing disciple multiplication happen, there are pitfalls that we have to focus on, and and it really will help us as well as we disciple people, help bring them out of some of these pitfalls as well and help them even go around some of the potholes that end up happening in our personal lives and in our disciple lives. And so, um, hole, that might be an understatement. Potholes or maybe craters.
Craters.
It would be more like, you know, uh, African or Indian potholes on their edges.
Yeah. Amazon rainforest potholes.
All right.
All right. That's fair. That's what we're talking about. When the river washes out the whole road. Um, and so why don't you unpack for us what we're going to be hitting on in this episode? Give them a one-two punch.
Yeah. How do we how do we if we're going to multiply disciples? One of those things that that has to be done. Again, we're replicating Jesus. Uh, Jesus experienced temptation in the wilderness. Hebrews says that he was tempted in every way just as we are, yet was without sin. Uh, if we're going to multiply disciples of Jesus, we do need to address the issue of temptation and sin.
Yeah. Uh, it'd be nice to ignore it. Be nice if it wasn't a problem at all, if it just kind of took care of itself. But it is lurking at the door. Uh, it is it is constantly waiting. It is First Peter 5:8, a lion prowling around seeking someone to devour.
Yeah. Uh, so perhaps it would be wise not to put our heads in the lion's mouth.
Yeah, that's good, man. So in our disciple journey, both I I would say this is going God willing be helpful for us personally but also as we're helping disciple others, um, the big question is, and we've had, you know, a mutual friend of ours even text this question that he had to us just about as we're walking alongside of people and helping them become disciples. How do we help them fight temptation or even addiction or whatever uh sin habits they may have in their lives? Um, and how do we make sure that they're battling that? Because really, I think the pitfall here is that it's very easy to um continue in habitual sin while we're following Jesus, um, or we see habitual sin in others and we don't necessarily have a great way as we're discipling them to teach them how to fight that and how to how to come out of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It'd be uh it'd be a disservice to uh to Christ following to act like things are okay that are not okay, right? Uh, we have a culture that has an increasingly casual relationship, not just a world culture, but a church culture that has a casual relationship with sin. Yeah. Uh, that tolerates it uh in in in epic quantities. Uh, things that uh we couldn't imagine uh you know, if we if we brought our great-grandparents into this this room, uh the things they're thinking, "Wow, you guys are okay with that. You don't even say anything about it."
Yeah. Uh, man, we think about uh the the proliferation of sexual sin in our culture. This is not a new thing. Uh, it pervades so much but but Paul says that this is the kind of sin that is more significant in the sense that he said this is a sin against your own body.
Yeah. Uh, so even Paul highlights some of these things as more consequential. All sin separates us from God.
Yeah. Uh, but there are varying consequences to uh to sin in this world. I mean, an example I always use that you know if if Josh you were going to commit a sin against my family, I would rather you lie to us than murder one of us. Uh, one of those they all lead us away from God. All sin separates us from God. But one of those is going to have more lasting consequences than the other. You know, not that I would prefer you sin at all toward my family. Um, but how do you how do you fight the fight?
Yeah. I'll tell you for me, most of my equipping was really just try harder, right? And then maybe get someone else in your life that was just another mechanism of trying harder. Uh, so, you know, there was a time in church culture where accountability was very popular. Uh, so, hey, you're going to have an accountability partner. Uh, but man, I I've got uh I've got lots of uh brothers and sisters that are fighting addiction. Um, and and I think every one of us, this is something that uh that one of my friends that is in ministry for recovery says, everyone is recovering from something.
Yeah. Everyone is recovering from something. Y and some of us hide it better than others.
Yeah. And so what happens when you find yourself in these times where you've even got a a system of accountability? Well, the problem is that we decide that we want to fail.
Yeah. We choose I want to fail. I'll I'll figure it out later. I'll I'll solve the consequences later. And essentially what we do when we sin is we take the truth of God. This is exactly what Adam and Eve did when they were deceived by the devil by the serpent uh who would tell them things like uh well God he's holding out on you. He's not telling you all the truth. He begins to malign the truth and then offer a lie. Surely you won't die.
Yeah. And they have to at least for that moment exchange truth for the lie to act upon the lie, uh in a sense to put their faith in the lie.
Yeah. Than in the truth.
Right. And the answer to navigating that is not simply to try harder to adhere to the truth. It's got to be better than that.
Right. Right. And so as we're discipling people, right? Um, what do you think are some very practical I I want to get as practical as we can in this episode on cuz I think if we're if we're going to talk about how to disciple somebody in battling this, helping them with that, whatever, it's also going to help us personally as we face our own battles, right? And so what do you think are some good principles and practices um that we can do as we're discipling people and even discipling our own family and helping them fight through this? Uh, what are some initial steps that we can take?
Yeah, isolation is the enemy of faith and disciple. I thought you were going to say isolation is key and isolation is key. You must be alone. Just be just do this alone. You're better off alone. Don't get drugged down by another idiot.
Right? It is harder to swim when someone else is drowning next to you. Just get away from them.
That's awesome. Wow. Okay. What a word of hope that is.
Yeah. Right. Think about the illustrations of the church in scripture. You know, you got the head and the body, uh, vine and branches, shepherd and sheep, husband and wife. All of these things denote connection. And when there is isolation and disconnection, uh, those things cease to function. They fail. Uh, vines wither and die. Uh, a body part separated from the body dies. A a sheep that is separate from the flock is going to be dinner for the wolf.
Yeah. So, you don't win on your own.
Yeah. And I would say that it it is not enough though just to simply say that I am in proximity to other people. Uh, you can be in a room full of people and still be isolated and alone if you choose to be. Yeah. And so when we're talking about discipleship relationships, these are relationships where in my opinion there is nothing off limits.
Yeah. Uh, you need to be able to talk about those things. And I think that there is something very powerful about shining a light on the dark places of your life.
Yeah. Uh, secrets keep you imprisoned.
Yeah. Uh, but to shine a light on those things and I've seen people in walk in in such powerful deliverance when they were finally willing to say this is happening.
Yeah. Uh, now I don't think that uh you may not be called to broadcast that to the world cuz we hear people share their stories and then we think boy that is that what you want me to do? Am I supposed to say this from a platform? We're talking about discipleship.
Yeah. We're talking about profound trust. We're talking about profound dependence uh in walking with someone. Uh, so man, what happens when you can say we're going to talk about we're going to talk about the stuff. We're no subjects off limits.
No, that's good, man. And so I think that that first principle, guys, is in in discipleship is creating a space um that is safe that people can openly confess what's actually happening in their lives and be real about it. It's so easy, man, in the Christian world to pretend like everything's okay even when it's not, right? It's that smile, shake a hand, you know, and and that's why I think these discipleship relationships are so important. Nobody on a Sunday morning when you're sitting around 2, 3, 400, 500, a thousand people are you going to be confessing, you know, deep dark the the deep dark recesses of your hearts. Um, that's not going to be happening in that environment. It's going to be happening when you're in a very small either group or one-on-one with somebody that you trust more than anything that you can actually share something with. Um, and bringing it to light. Like you said, these things they they thrive in the dark and they multiply in the dark.
That's right. Um, and so you think about, you know, mold and just junk that begins to multiply, monsters under the bed, right?
Exactly. They always happen in the dark.
They do, don't they?
They do. Yeah. Um, and so all of those things it's like man um we we have got to be people um who are creating spaces for others and then to regularly confess things ourselves too to to help them feel comfortable sharing with us. I can't tell you how many conversations I've been in throughout my life where either if that person confesses something to me where then I feel comfortable and open and safe to share something that I'm going through or vice versa where I share something and then all of a sudden something unlocks in that person where they then begin to open up and share with me because they feel like it's a safe spot. Um, and so just creating that space and being open I think is a very crucial first step in helping people fight through these.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. You gave us another principle though. Confession is attached to healing.
Yeah. This is uh right out of James chapter 5. Uh, the magnitude of the miracles of James 5 ascends. Uh, as uh you were talking about, you know, praying for a sick person to be made well. Uh, by the time it's done, we're literally talking about praying whether or not it would rain for years, right? that the magnitude of that is seismic. You're going to see famine or plenty based on something like that. And then uh the beauty in all of this is that you know that uh we we land in James 5 and in love covering a multitude of sins that in saturating that conversation though is confession that brings healing.
Yeah, that's good. We want the healing. We don't want the confession. Right. And then that confession leads to and the healing section leads to another principle I think is that man if we confess early and often we're killing stuff way early and not letting it fester and grow. So there's a a guy um I I can't remember his name who who wrote a book um and he uses the analogy in the example. This is a great way to site something.
Yeah, I know. A guy a guy I can't remember his name. He wrote a book. Um, anyway, the point is it's not my thoughts. You know, I'm not trying to plagiarize anybody out here, okay? Um, you know, I'm not trying to be that guy that's ripping off. Anyway, um, so, um, but it's funny. I'll I'll just tell the story. Might as well. Might as well. Anyway, it's really funny. I had a guy just recently, I was teaching a three-hour session and an hour and a half into it, he comes up to me and he goes, "I just thought the whole hour and a half that you were ripping off a podcast I listen to all the time." Might be listening right now. He might be listening right now. If that's you, dude, love you, man. This is this is a like one of my favorite stories. He goes, "I thought you were ripping off this podcast I listen to all the time." And he's and he was just livid. He was like, "This guy's not even giving these guys credit. like these guys do this podcast and he's stealing everything. Personal stories even.
Yeah. Personal stories, all that like and uh and then he looks up the podcast and it's our podcast and I was the one teaching and so he's like I realized I wasn't you weren't ripping anybody off. You were just sharing what you shared on the podcast, guys. Like I always say, exactly.
Oh, then it's okay. He cited the source. He cited the source. So, you know, you read a a book written by a guy. A a book written by a guy. And uh anyway, the whole point was he uses this analogy of baby dragons and how certain sins in our lives are like a a baby dragon. And we're talking very little, probably cute, can't really spit much fire. It's it's it's cute and nice. And when we keep feeding the dragon, um, it continues to grow and get bigger and bigger and bigger. So much so that now it is spitting a ton of fire. It is out of your control. You can no longer chain it up. And now you've got a dragon that's, you know, 10 times the size you are, 20 times the size you are, and there is no killing it anymore. Like, it is out of control. And his whole analogy is, man, you've got to kill the dragon while it's little. You've got to slay the dragon when it's little. And uh and I've heard people use illustration of tigers or lions, you know, like once they're once they're big and full grown, they're so much harder to uh get out of your life. And so the idea is you have a predator lurking at the door.
Yeah. that at the beginning is very small and is not creating much impact in your life yet. But keeping it hidden, keeping it fed, keeping it warm, keeping it secret is just going to allow it to grow and grow and grow until it's out of control. And so when we confess, when we're open, when we slay it early, it's able to then not have the stronghold in our life that it can in the future if we're not careful.
Yeah. You think about that that First Peter 5:8 text, your enemy, the devil. Uh, this is the like a like a a roaring lion. He's prowling seeking somebody to devour. That word enemy or adversary is a compound word in the Greek. It is anti-justice. When you think about something that might look small and somewhat benign, right, that is the cute little dragon, it's surely not going to be that big a deal. In fact, I could probably control it.
Yeah. I could probably contain it, right? Understand the enemy's intent from the beginning is anti-justice.
Yeah. To foster anti-trust.
Yeah. In you. And you think about the consequences of this.
Yeah. In man, in American church culture right now, uh, we think that uh spiritual leaders giving themselves to to their sinful desires is somehow new.
Yeah. And this is this goes back to the Old Testament times.
Oh yeah, absolutely. This is not a new trick from from the enemy. We are finding better ways to broadcast it.
Yeah. Um, but uh man, it is fostering anti-justice. It is the enemy and the opposition of truth and of trust.
Yeah. And to even foster that as a as a puppy
Yeah. or as a kitten
Yeah. is folly.
Yeah. And so if you're if you're out there right now, well, number one, um if you're in a discipling relationship with someone, part of the discipleship process is helping each person that you're pouring into become a dragon slayer. It's it's it's helping them destroy um strongholds of the enemy early and often and keeping short accounts with God. Um, and and keeping short accounts with one another where you don't go you don't go large stretches of time without confessing um fault before the father. Uh, you keep a clean slate before him. Um, I was just talking to a gentleman uh a friend of mine uh either yesterday, it was yesterday or the day before and he was talking about how the journey of his life of um keeping things hidden for long stretches of time has now gotten to a point where because he's been working on it and trying to slay dragons early and often, he's now getting to a point, man, where even the thoughts of sin, he immediately confesses to the father and admits it to him right away. Um, so much so where he's like even if he's walking down the street and sees a beautiful woman, before even the thought of an adulterous or lustful thought even enters when he when he even senses his mind wandering in that direction, he's immediately like, "God, I see that woman. I know you created her. She's a daughter of yours. I'm keeping my mind on you." Like even before we're talking about slaying the dragon while it's still in the egg. Like literally before it's even birthed, just smashing it and getting it out. And man, if we could you imagine uh the difference that it would make in our personal lives and in the lives of our disciples if we were teaching them how to crush eggs before they were even hatched. Um, crush crush dragons before they have a chance to even have the ability to breathe fire in our lives. Um, and and Jesus longs to help us with that stuff. I mean, he's already he's already won on the cross these battles for us, right? like he we have victory in him on the cross. And when we begin to lift these things up before him, man, he longs to come and loves to come and fight our battles on our behalf. Um, we just have to be willing to keep short accounts and confess it early and often.
Yeah.
Yeah. Y yeah. Where's the power come from? That's another question I like to ask because I I again I think that the the challenge in this discussion is that we end up inadvertently creating a a striving a striving strategy. I'm I've man and we get frustrated with ourselves. We get frustrated with each other. Man, why can't you just get this?
Yeah. We've gone through this again and again and again. It's the same habitual sins. It's the same. What is wrong with you? And there's uh we we we cast ourselves down in that. Name anything in in the in the living of our faith that is in our own power. Y name one thing that is something we produce and manifest ourselves.
Yeah. Now all of a sudden we're going to conquer sin on our own.
Yeah. Right. By our own power. Right. Now we have to be careful because there's I think there is a treatment of 1 Corinthians 10 that gets misunderstood. And so, you know, when we read scripture, we have to take context into account. And so, uh, when I was a kid, I was a part of, uh, of some really, really awesome youth groups that were, um, you know, in the in the late 90s doing a great job of of pushing forward in our schools and lots of things were happening. It was great. Um, you know, we weren't necessarily the waves of discipleship had not hit us quite yet.
Yeah. And so,
None, it wasn't even a thought for any of us. Uh, we might have used the word, but we didn't really practice it. Uh, but purity was a really, really strong emphasis in in that day and age, and I remember having this impression that if I had failed there, um, that uh, that I'd ruined something forever, and I and so they would often times go to 1 Corinthians 10 and uh, and and give us some admonition from the text uh, to say uh, this is what uh, it's like verse uh, 13.
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. And I I had misinterpreted this text to think that the way out was somehow seated in my willpower, right? Like just try harder.
Yes. If I I have to look for there's got to be an escape hatch here somewhere. There's got to be a way. Boy, I've gotten hemmed in by the enemy. Just the normal interpretation of that by many people.
You have to read the whole chapter, though.
Yeah. You know, you can't just read two verses out of 1 Corinthians 10 and think that you've you've captured the strategy in the heart of what Paul is trying to teach us, right? He goes through this entire section and and he begins this section by talking about uh crossing the Red Sea, which isn't it funny that that's what he's what he's what he's uh what he's referencing.
It's then he essentially says, "Hey, I'm going to tell you uh here are a bunch of things that they did and that happened to them that serve as a warning to you." that serve as a warning to you. Now, this is this is in the middle of all of this teaching. Crossing the Red Sea, here's a bunch of mistakes they make, a bunch of idolatry they commit. And by the way, their bodies were scattered throughout the desert. I mean, it is a It is a scary word.
It's a scary word.
Yeah. He said, "These things happened to them to serve as a warning to you." Now, here's the funny thing about warnings. We're too stupid to heed them.
Happens all the time. Like how many parents have said to teenagers, don't do this, right? You there are big things, big consequences on the other side of this. Well, we uh my dad calls it sophomore genius syndrome. Uh, every sophomore thinks their parents are complete morons, you know, doesn't realize that their parents were trying the same things they were trying uh just a few years back.
And so I I remember specifically one time I was um in in in the town I was living in at the time there was a billboard that was in and meth was like a massive issue in that in that region. There was a billboard that was warning against the potential impact and and peril that you would put yourself in if you if you got on a meth. And it was five pictures of a woman who had gotten addicted to methamphetamine. And you see the the literal deterioration of her face uh until until she was done.
Yeah. And and she was this beautiful woman and by the time it was over she was she was a zombie. She was a a a shadow of herself, right? And what struck me is that there would likely be hundreds if not thousands of people that drove past that very billboard that were doing the very thing that would lead to that outcome ignoring good morning.
Yeah. Absolutely. You would think like that's why they put the billboard up. Anybody that would look that is say I have to stop, right? I have to turn around or I I will never get on that pathway. If that's where it leads, I'm never going to get on that pathway.
The truth is though, it's not just the the one who's addicted to to meth. Uh, Jesus says that wide is the path and many are on it. That that broad is the way that leads to destruction.
Right. And if I'm on a a pathway that leads to destruction, you would think that I would go, "Wait, what am I doing? I got to get off this thing." Uh, we don't heed warnings.
Yeah. Absolutely. We are too foolish and shortsighted.
Yeah. To heed warnings. It's why when Paul says he always gives us a way out that he's already talked about the Red Sea for crying out loud.
Yeah. when the Israelites are literally between Pharaoh's army and the Red Sea. I mean, we're not talking about a rock and a hard place. We're talking about dead or drowning.
Yeah. Right. There is absolutely no way out for them. And when there was no way, what did God do?
Yeah. Moses, stretch your arm out over the sea, and I'm going to I'm going to beat it back. I'm going to push the sea to the side. And when there was absolutely no way to get out, God moved the ocean.
This is where we need a black preacher to step in.
Yeah. Let's go. All right. God will make a way when there is no way. I can hear it. I can hear him right now. I love it. I love it. I love it. But and this is really I I love this part and we're we're going to need to land the plan in just a second here. But I love I love what you're hitting on here because this is why it's so important.
Disciplem movements all over the world have basically said this. We're going to let the scripture be the main curriculum and the Holy Spirit be the main teacher. What that means when it comes to temptation is this. The disciplem movements around the world are not sitting down with their disciples and pointing out every sin that they need to go work on. What they're doing is they're opening the scriptures and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict them because one of the Holy Spirit's job is conviction of sin. Like that's what he does. And I don't know about you, man, but I'm a terrible Holy Spirit. Like I'm not good at that. And and when I try to be the Holy Spirit, I fail at it.
Right? And so what I love about the Disciplem movement principles is this. We let the Holy Spirit do the Holy Spirit's job. Let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. Let the Holy Spirit prepare a way out. Let the Holy Spirit begin to work on these people's lives. And so our job as a disciplemaker is to get them as close to the presence of Jesus as possible so that the Holy Spirit can then open their hearts and reveal to them and convict them of things.
Dude, I like I can't tell you how many stories I've heard of movements across the world where someone is in some sort of sinful behavior, whatever it is, and rather than pointing it out, the leader opens the word of God and starts studying different stories and different passages with them, and never brings up the individual sin that they're dealing with, but allows the word of God to be the double-edged sword that he promises it to be, and allows the Holy Spirit to be the convvictor of sin the way that he promises to. And all of a sudden after the end of a study like that, somebody's saying, "Man, you know what? God just revealed a part of my heart that I didn't even realize was a big problem." And they themselves name the sin that the guy knows they have and and they walk away from it.
Do you get what I'm saying? And so it's not like we have got to quit viewing people just by whatever sins they're involved in and then putting them on different levels. You know what I mean? Like how bad are we at? I mean, one of the one of the things that a lot of people love to talk about today are like um homosexual relationships for example or whatever. And dude, preachers will preach against that and they will talk about it. And dude, if a if a guy and a guy walk into the church, they immediately try to point it out that this is not okay. You can't do this type of thing here. Or a woman and a woman walk in and they're pointing that out. But dude, Joe and Lisa could be having a an affair and they're not pointing that out.
You know what I'm saying? Like we we put
Yeah. these sins on different levels. But instead, what if we just brought these people in whatever sin patterns they're in, whatever it is, to the presence of Jesus and letting the Holy Spirit do the convicting and and let the Holy Spirit be the one to clean house and let the Holy Spirit be the one to actually transform lives and let the word of God be the sword that it is. Man, we have just got to get people in the word, in the presence of Jesus, and let the Holy Spirit do its job.
Yeah. To hunger and thirst for righteousness. If you read Romans 1.
Amen. You'd better keep reading.
Yeah. Absolutely. Don't stop to Romans 1. Read Romans 2.
Yeah. Where he tells you, don't be guilty of the things that you accuse other people of, right? You got to clean your own house. Y and you're not cleaning anything up on your own. I mean, imagine trying to clean something up with your hands all muddy.
Yeah. You got to have hope.
Absolutely. The way's not in you. And so here's a here's a really good tool and then we'll and then we'll close up here. Um, a really good tool is this. If you start getting together with disciples every week and you start opening the word and you start reading certain sections and then at the end asking a very clear question and saying Lord based upon what we just read, what do you want to reveal to me? What hidden part of my heart do you want to bring to light? What is not pleasing to you and what I'm doing right now? And if you make a consistent habit of putting your heart out before the Lord, he'll start poking on stuff that you didn't even know were there was there. He'll start hitting the most obvious first, of course. But dude, some of us who think we don't have sin issues. Bro, you ask the Lord to reveal some stuff, there's going to be some stuff that immediately pop up that he's like, "Hey, it's it's like that that letter the letters that he writes in Revelation, right?"
He always starts with an encouragement.
Yep. You're doing this really, really well, Sardis. You're doing this really, really well, Leodysa. You're doing this really, really well, Ephesus. But I have this thing against you.
Yep. What is the thing he would say, man? And if we start regularly opening the word and asking those questions, man, the Holy Spirit is going to help us to overcome these things. And and and it's just about getting consistent rhythms of life where we're opening the word and asking Jesus to reveal and then making a commitment that whatever he says we're going to we're going to step out in and do. Um, and so I just want to encourage you guys listening, man, like let's uh there's a couple points that are really important that we've hit on here.
Confession. Let's light up the dark places of our heart. Admit stuff as quickly as possible. Keep short accounts with God. Let's be dragon slayers. Let's crush it while it's still in the egg. Let's be honest and and and clear very often and and frequently. Uh, let's keep keep a clean clean slate before the Lord. And man, let's let the Bible be the sword that it promises. And let's the let let's let the Holy Spirit be the uh conviction that we need and that our people needs in order to become the people that he's called us to be. And as we do that, man, we are going to become more close disciples of Jesus and and help other people become closer disciples of Jesus. And so guys, we love you. If you want help in any of this, like we would love to come alongside of you and help you in any area we can reach out to us at discipleship.org and we would absolutely love to help in any way. Uh, Jace, thanks bro. Uh, this has been a ton of fun and uh love you dearly and love you guys watching um or listening, I guess. Uh, so come and uh just come and check us out next time. We'll see you next week.