The Collapse of Islam Is Closer Than You Think (Michael Jones) | Ep. 580

What do you think people find attractive about Islam?

A lot of people that want a lot of structure go to Islam. I pray five times a day, I do this. The other aspect is the brotherhood mentality of Islam. Muslims will defend other Muslims to the death.

Is it the case that Muslims are dreaming of Christ? I've heard stories, man. People in those culture are really affected by dreams.

Islam is just not a religion compatible with the West. They are coming here to conquer, to spread their world, and if they take over, you would see things like child marriage. You'd see things like polygamy.

Isn't it true that Muslims are taught to lie to infidels? >> Taqiya. They will lie to us, tell us what we want to hear. >> So, you're saying that when you're in an interaction with a Muslim, they may have that as a tactic. >> Oh, they do. I see it all the time.

What would you say to Muhammad? Prophet, liar, or lunatic? This is an evil evil religion, and if it takes over the world, we are doomed.

Have you ever kind of sat back and honestly went, "Am I not giving this a fair shake? Like, is it possible that they're right?"

I first came across one of your videos maybe 15 Cali, couldn't be that long ago. Many moons ago. How long? When did you publish that uh the one on the contingency argument? >> 2013. Yeah, it wasn't soon after that I watched it. It was like, "Wow." It was right.

That's what I I like making those little graphic animated videos. Cuz the original goal of what I was doing was man, there's a lot of dumb stuff online. I just want to put out a bunch of videos just sort of like showing the intellectual side of Christianity and just giving people some firepower to use. But, I mean, like I don't want to be a talking head. I want to give people I can use the screen to say more than what I'm saying. And so, just, you know, making all those kind of like little videos easy for people.

Is it a podcast or no? You just release things when you release them and you I know you have a big presence on TikTok and Instagram, too. You're very good at those sort of short-form things. >> Yeah. Well, no. Now Now I'm doing a whole ton. I still do the graphic videos. We release them, but we do live streams now and we do the shorts. And we're getting into some skits now. So, I've been posting some myself dressed as a Muslim. Been fun. Those have been going kind of viral on Instagram, so.

Are you getting any response from our Muslim friends? >> They are very upset. Are they? How How are they How are they upset? Because they think I'm misrepresenting Islam by reading their own sources. Uh-huh. So, what does that tell you?

So, did you get into Christian apologetics by way of atheism? Yeah. So, if you go back to like 2011 Oh my goodness. There just was All I would find online was fundamentalist Baptist ranting about stuff they were not experts on. And then if atheists, they were just dominating YouTube. Yeah. And I'm like, there's got to be some Christians that can do stuff to do this. As I said, sitting in a trailer all night working as a security yard with 8 hours of free time on my hand. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get the message, God. All right, I'll do something. And so, I just started making videos and and it just snowballed into what it is.

And so, when did you start doing debates? I was kind of forced into that. I People just started asking me, "K, come on and do a debate." You know, Cameron Toozu of Capturing Christianity. He asked me to come on and do a debate early on. That was when I was still hiding my face and name. So, I wasn't telling anybody who I was.

Yeah. So, what did you just put up an image? Yeah. I would >> hot buff guy. No. But I was terrified to show who I was cuz I You know, my goal in 2011 was not to be this. Yeah. My goal was to be the editor of this. Yeah. Uh like hiding in editing bay far away from the stage and the camera. And yeah. Why? Cuz I >> My parents were kind of like theater nerds. I They kind of like made me do a lot of the stuff as a kid. I hated it, honestly, growing up. It was not my thing. I like and I liked editing. I still do. I think it's just fun and I just I'm an introvert. I'm like, yeah, just put me in front of a computer, I'll be happy. And God said, nope, I have a I have another plan. So, this is what you're doing now.

And what bad things have resulted, if any, since showing your face? Like, what has Do you wish you had have stayed anonymous sometimes? Yeah. Yeah, there's parts. I mean, I we do get death threats from Muslims. Yeah. Uh they they tried to dox my me and my family. They There were some Muslims that were doing that with my you know, myself, David Wood, God Logic. They were all up They were, you know, trying to dox us. They put what they thought was my cell phone number on the screen and it wasn't. It was an older number that I had. So, it's kind of funny like but Everyone's calling some poor guy called Jeff who's like, I don't know who he is. I feel bad if that happened. It's it's funny though, but it's it's also sad. But, it's like Okay, they're looking. So, you know, now we're we're we have to move just for our own safety.

You did that? You had to move? >> We're we're looking at it. Just So, I hear about people like that who get death threats and I'm I'm I'm a little jealous because I don't think anyone's ever offered to kill me. So, all right. So, to >> Maybe. But, maybe you didn't check your social media. Well, we now have like a full team of ex-Navy SEALs here at DailyWire constantly checking the web and the dark web. So, they're like, we're on it. I'm like, all right, I don't think anyone's The Mormons are upset with me, but they come at me with a sort of and they're not as violent. Yeah, you got to go If you want to go for a tougher challenge, go after the Muslims because they don't take kindly to that.

So, what So, what The other thing I wanted to know is like, when you say death threat, what does what does it actually mean? Because if I'm honest, and I'm not accusing you or David Wood of this. I know that y'all are being sincere. But, sometimes I wonder if it's just things people say to look cool than they actually are. So, what is it What do you mean by death threats? Yeah, so I got a I got a message on Twitter once where some guy was like, just remember your blood is halal. Uh-huh. Which means what? >> That means it's you know it halal is mean it's it's good. It's not haram which is bad in Islam or so that means spilling my blood would be approved of by Allah. Mhm. So you know you get stuff like that. What do you do when you get that? Do you screenshot it and Screenshot it, send it to the FBI FBI or DHS, you know, I we we've had people contact us. Hey if you get anything just send it over to us. Okay, yeah here here's another screenshot. Uh I don't make a big fuss about it. Maybe if I I don't really post it on social media because that's what they want. They want the attention. Mhm. So I just put that I just send it to DHS or FBI contacts I have.

In your work on in against Muslims have you ever kind of sat back and honestly went all right. Cuz sometimes we can get into conflict reaction mode and we love it. But then sometimes you pause and go hang on. All right. May am I not giving this a fair shake? Like, is it possible that they're right and I just need to examine this with an open mind? Did you ever go through that, do it again and decide immediately no? Do you know what I mean? Or thousand times? >> Really? Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean like you're not you're not being honest if you don't go well wait a minute maybe they have something here. I mean there's a ton of people that believe this and then you read the Quran again and you go wait there's nothing here. This is insane. This is nonsense. This doesn't make any sense and you know you the what I always remember the verse Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is wicked and deceitful above all else who can understand it. Because you know we have those fleeting emotions and what always brings me back to Christianity is this is where all the evidence is. This is I mean Jesus was publicly executed buried in a public tomb, rose leaving behind an empty tomb for the public to examine and appeared to multiple people in public. That's different than Mormonism or Islam where it's one guy getting I have received a revelation today and you got to trust him. Jesus left behind a case that could made, which we call the resurrection argument for the truth of Christianity. We have that, and all the evidence points to Jesus actually rising from the dead. It's not like other religions where it's just one guy getting private revelations. So, at the end of the day, when I have those fleeting emotions like maybe the Muslims have something, maybe the Mormons have something, maybe the Hindus have something, I go, "Let me examine it." And then my head keeps me on the keeps me on track.

If you had to make the best case for Islam, what would you say? That's hard to do. It just >> Do you think you Do you think a better case could be made for >> Yes. If If you could debunk Christianity, I wouldn't be a a Muslim. There's just Think of Think about what the Quran Think about the history here. So, like the Quran was written at a time before Islam became what it is, really. So, this is stuff that scholars like, you know, Gabriel Reynolds, Fred Donner have pointed out. The earliest Muslims and Muhammad were more inclusive in how they thought. Jews and Christians can be saved. We're all on the same page. Muhammad thought he was a prophet, probably. And but he thought what he was preaching was going to be in line with what the Bible, the prior scriptures taught. So, he was an illiterate guy, but he goes around saying, "Hey, you should believe in me because I'm confirming your scriptures. I'm teaching exactly the same stuff your prophets of old taught. So, just believe in me, too." And of course, the Jews and Christians went and then looked at their scriptures. They're like, "No, you're not. You're contradicting everything our prophet said." And then he would say, "Well, he You'll see it in the Quran like Sura 3 and Sura 5 where it's like, they're twisting it with their tongues. They know I'm prophesied in there. They know I'm preaching the same stuff." But that created what we call the Islamic dilemma, because Muhammad was so ignorant. He said over and over again, "I'm confirming the Jewish and the Christian scriptures. I'm confirming them. So, that's why you should believe in me. Believe in those scriptures and believe in me also as a prophet. Okay, well that creates an Islamic dilemma because he was ignorant ignorant. We know he contradicts the Bible, Jewish and the Christian scriptures. So either this is the dilemma. The dilemma is either our scriptures have been corrupted or they haven't been. If our scriptures have not been corrupted, Islam is false because teaches Jesus is the son of God. He died and rose from the dead, has a contradictory history, you know, and the Quran says the golden calf was made by a Samaritan. We know it was made by Aaron. Like that kind of stuff. The other horn of the dilemma is if our scriptures have been corrupted, Islam is false because why is Allah confirming corrupted scriptures? So either way, Islam is false. And so when you ask me make the best case for Islam, I don't know. I mean like I guess you could say Muhammad I mean you could say look at how big Islam has become. Yeah. I mean Didn't you say he was illiterate? >> He was illiterate, yeah. So do we have any good reason to think he wrote the Quran and >> No, no, no, no. >> He he's he preached this stuff and people memorized surahs and then they wrote them down later. Uh cuz you know, it it's rhythmic in Arabic and that's one of the weird arguments they will use, but even one of their own scholars, al-Tabari, said some parts of the Quran are not elegant speech for the Arabs. So that kind of ruins the whole miracle, the Quran being the most beautiful book ever ever. It isn't.

What do you think people find attractive about Islam then? Because I think most many people, maybe most of us, we're attracted to things before we're open to the truth claims about them. And I would say that's even true today as Christianity is seeing a resurgence. It's like we live in this banal two-dimensional culture and people look at orthodoxy or with the beards and the icons and the incense or Catholicism with the same and they go I want that. And it's like fair enough, you know, like being attracted by beauty is not a bad thing. Um, but it doesn't mean it's a true thing, right? So, what is it about Islam that attracts people? Is it its simplicity? Is it its culture that appears to be less infected by wokeism, etc.?

I think it's two things. Like, a lot of people that go to prison end up converting to Islam, unfortunately. Uh, it's because Islam provides that structure. You know, you you go through pri- you're in prison for several years, you get up at this time, you do this thing at this day. You get out and Islam has that kind of structure. So, a lot of people that want a lot of structure go to Islam. I pray five times a day, I do this. The other as- aspect is the brotherhood mentality of Islam. Like, Muslims will defend other Muslims to the death. To the point where it's like you'll see them like Muslims siding with like Islamic countries against their home country, like America or some European country. So, people get attracted to that loyalty. The problem is once you get into Islam, that whole loyalty thing's a myth. >> They're they're they're at each other's throats all the time. >> right? Cuz I would agree with you. Like, from the outside, I see that and that is attractive. Especially from the inside of Christianity, I see a bunch of us YouTubers just sort of picking on each other and getting upset about Well, compare that to the Muslim YouTubers. Okay. They they are always at each other's throats. They record each other's each other's conversations to use on each other. They have dirt on each other. Be like, if any of them you talk about me, I'll throw this out. Oh, but if you talk about me, I'll throw that It's wild. And like, every now and then that'll leak out. They try to hide it, but we we get the hints and we get the clips. Myself, David Wood. I mean, you know, Apostate Prophet, God Logic. Well, we see it. So, they're at each other's throats. And Islam is very divided on the inside. I mean, like, you know, we have Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestants in Christianity. We're like, okay, we're all Christian. We we disagree about this or that, but we're all Christian. The two major branches of Islam, Sunni and Shia, call each other heretics all the time. Mhm. Uh you know, you have four schools in Sunni Islam. They're always fighting. You have Salafis fighting, which is like a revivalist movement in Islam, trying to get make it back to what make it more traditional and hardcore. They're fighting with non-Salafis. You'll see people fighting with the Wahhabis. I mean, there's all these different factions in there and they're fighting. And then they're fighting in terms of countries they support. Oh, you support UAE, why support Saudi Arabia? It's very And but this is the thing though, Islam in the Qur- in the Quran, it's kind of opposite of what the Bible does. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith. Islam teaches them to be on the offensive. Muhammad was going around challenging the pagans of his day, the Jews of his day. So, it builds this mentality that I need to be on the attack mode. I need to attack the pagans, the Jews. But that boils over into them now, and they're fighting amongst themselves cuz they feel like they always have to be on the attack mode. It's like when you train a a dog to be on the attack mode, you got to keep it away from small children because it could just go off and you'll see this with the the Dawah bros, the the defenders of Islam. They start fighting with each other over little things. I mean, there was a 8-hour live stream between Jake Brancatella, Daniel Haqiqatjou, and sometimes this guy named Dean would pop in and out. But they were fighting for like 8 hours on the stream over little things. Like, can you sacrifice to the jinn in the name of Allah? Can you do this? Like, really like stuff that I didn't even care about. But it that was that was eye-opening to a lot of non-Muslims about, "Wow, they're really at each other's throats. This brotherhood thing is an illusion." And it is. So, I am really excited to tell you that I have partnered with Theotokos Rosaries. These are, without a doubt, the most beautiful rosaries I have ever seen in my life. Theotokos Rosaries sent me one maybe about a year ago or so, and I remember being something that you could have for life, check this out. Go to dailywire.com/shop and pick up one of these. This is more of the masculine one. This one they based on St. Peter's Basilica. Uh so, it has real stone beads and Italian olive wood. This one is inspired by uh Notre Dame in Lyon, France. So, you might want to again pick this up. It'd be a beautiful ordination gift, a gift for those who are getting married, um maybe Father's Day, Mother's Day. Like, honestly, a beautiful gift. I remember what moved me so much is when I sent this to my I won't say who cuz I don't want to call them out, but a family member who doesn't actually pray the rosary, they started praying the rosary. And I think it's honestly because it's so beautiful and so sacred-looking. So again, go to dailywire.com/shop to pick one up today. And thank you to Theotokos Rosaries for partnering with us.

So, they're fighting over doctrine. Mhm. A lot of doctrine. You're not You know, remember Islam is a works-based religion. >> Okay. It's not like Christianity. You're saved by grace through faith, not of works, so that no man may boast. Like, we we all agree on that, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant. Uh even though we may bicker over little things, but in Islam, it's a work-based. So, you do this little thing, you mess up. Like, there's a clip of Sneako who converted to Islam finding out he can't wear red in Islam, or maybe his understanding of it. And he's like, "Whoa, I didn't know this." Or there's a clip of him interviewing a shake in Saudi Arabia. And the shake is telling him, "If you doubt Muhammad at all, you're a kafir, which means you've left Islam." And it's like A sk- It's a religion where you're walking on eggshells all the time. You can't do this, you can't eat that, you can't say this, you have to wear this, you have to dress this way. Why can't you wear red? I don't remember the reason. It was I It was weird. It's like So, you know, in Catholicism, we have a magisterium, right? In Islam, is there something like that? Oh, yeah, there's there's there's different schools, there's imams, yeah. >> then is there more of a forgive the analogy, but more of a Protestant type group of those who say we don't need a magisterium, we have the word of God here, and >> They're called Quran-only Muslims. Uh so, they're kind of like the Protestants of Islam. >> KJV-only, but Quran-only. K-only, okay. >> Mainstream Sunni and Shia consider them heretics. Like, that's the thing. Like, you know, disagreements between Catholics and Baptists, okay, you you believe in the Trinity, you believe Jesus is coming back, the inspiration of scripture, great, okay. We believe on core doctrines. I'm not going to call you a heretic. Not going to apply the same to Mormon or Jehovah's Witness because they're breaking essential doctrines. But in the Sunnis will declare the Quran-onlyists Muslims heretics because they're not holding to the traditions of the prophet and the later teachings of fiqh and the schools of thought.

So, I wonder if that's not a part of the attraction, right? Like, let's say you're a Christian in North America, and you're you're dissatisfied with your particular branch of it, and so maybe you go hardcore, you become like a Calvinist bro or a rad trad or an ortho bro. And then if that's not doing it enough for you, you look over the fence and you see what appears to be a masculine, united, simple religion, and you go, "I'm going to give that a shot." And what you're saying is when people do that, that's when you see how divided and They they they have it Islam is like the Wizard of Oz. Okay. Okay, he he looks big, scary, and powerful. You pull back the curtain and it's just a little man. Okay. It they put up this giant show that we have a simple religion. Just believe in one God and we're all Yeah. this amazing brotherhood and got each other's backs and it's so great. And then you get in and people are like, "I didn't know how bad this was." I mean, there's some data out there. I forget where, but shows it like 50 to like 70% I think of converts to Islam leave within 5 to 10 years. Mhm. And we do call-in shows with Muslims. Uh we had a guy call in. His name was Khalid. Mhm. He was a white convert to Islam and he left because he just it was so racist, he said, like towards him and it was there was always this infighting and he just felt like he was what? Yeah, he said he the way he explained it was is that they want white converts. Yeah, but then once you're in, you're not really They get mad if you start learning too much because then they feel inferior again. Huh. They look at the West as a superior cuz the West is a superior culture to the Islamic culture. So, they want to bring in Westerners in. Yes, bring more of them them them in. But when they get them in, they want them to be, you know, they want them to be good dimmies, good little boys.

Have you seen that blonde Australian Sheila who does TikToks and talks about how great Islam is? How much money is she getting paid? I don't know. Yeah. Well, I don't know because the other thing I think is if you just sort of just assume that most of us are narcissists and just desperately want attention. That's true. Then it's like you start you're a blonde young woman who's decent, attractive, I guess. Like you do a little video and you have a lot of men all around the world cheering for you. But I wonder what would Is she a Muslim? She's a Muslim, isn't she? >> She's a Muslim. She's taken her shahada in several videos because >> What does that mean? That's where you declare that Muhammad's the prophet. You It's like the what you say to become a Muslim. You take the shahada. But I mean, we know the Muslims are paying influencers. There was a There's a Viking historian on YouTube who uh says he put up a video, says, "I was approached by these guys from the Middle East, and they uh they had a They had a blank check, basically, and they said they wanted me to do a documentary series based on his books on Viking history, but he had to include that some of the earliest Vikings were Muslim. And he was like, "I can't do that. That's a lie." >> Oh. But, they were willing to pay. We've heard from uh like certain pastors in the UK that have been approached saying, "Convert to Islam, we'll give you whatever you want." And uh just write a book saying you you became a Muslim for all the amazing proof of Islam, which there isn't any, but, you know.

I'm also seeing a sort of softening towards Islam from people who are considered conservative. I've seen video clips with both Tucker and Candace and others are basically softening. It's like they're softening towards Yeah, or yeah. Islam as they're hardening against Israel. Thoughts? Yeah, that's terrifying. The biggest threat to the West for the past 1,400 years has been Islam. It's been the Islamic world. And Christians have fought tooth and nail to defend our civilization for centuries, and now the secularists are here, and they're opening the door letting them flood in, and they have no idea what they've done. This is not a culture like ours. Muslims are not coming here to assimilate. If they do assimilate, it's because they deconverted. Islam is not a religion that can assimilate. It's a religion based on conquest. It's a religion based on authoritarian regimes. It's a religion that promotes and encourages slavery, even sexual slavery. How does it do that? How does it promote sexual slavery? >> and Muhammad said that if you were at war with the infidel, and you attack and kill all the men, those women in those villages, you've captured them in war, you can take them as your sex slaves. >> It says that in the Quran? It's in Yeah, it says the women It says those that your right hand possesses. They are you and that there's no there's no limit on that. You can have four wives in Islam, but you can there's no limit on as many sex slaves. So, slavery is a good to go good to go in Islam. How would a Muslim respond to that? That depends on the Muslim. Some of them will hide it. Some of them will just be like, "Yeah, and that's a good thing." Really? >> Yeah, I've seen it done.

Am I right in thinking that a Muslim contacted you and said they wanted to debate you on child marriage? >> Yeah, his name is Daniel Haqiqatjou. He's the world's leading defender of child marriage and uh I watched the debate, David First of all, what was it like when someone challenged you to a de- Sorry, I should not laugh. But I would think it's so I was being punked if someone challenged me to a debate on child marriage. I think the first thing I'd do is like, "Wait, you don't think I believe that, do you? I don't believe that. Oh, wait, you believe that? You want to say that?" That's kind of what happened, but yeah, so the build-up to that is I watched a debate between David Wood on the topic and I just sort of made some tweets about how horrible it was. Well, then he found the tweets and got mad and so he challenged me. I challenge you to debate child marriage. And I was like, and you know, I I have a daughter. She was like six or seven at the time. So, Aisha's age? Yeah, it's >> Wasn't Aisha six? >> She was six when she was married to Muhammad and then consummated when she was nine. But something when when he challenged me, something like ticked in my father brain. Like something primal urge came up. And I like stopped what I was doing and I just started researching this the child marriage cuz I'm like, "Yeah, I'm doing this. He's going down. This is we can't stand for this." And I was like, "Yeah, this That's when I realized like I knew Islam was a problem, but that's when I knew Islam was a problem." This is a guy raised in the West who's a Muslim who's saying the world will be better if we could children now. Just as long as we put a marriage contract on it. But that's what a lot of Muslims will say. It's we can rape all the children we want as long as they're nine or older, and we put a marriage contract on it, right? And that's what we're up against. >> Then they also say, not that it makes it better, but I'm just trying to do what I can here for them. Wouldn't they say that they have to have been of the age of puberty? Some will say that. The Quran doesn't say that. Sura 65:4 basically says you Women who haven't menstruated, you they're they're free game, you know. It does say that. It's talking about the iddah, the period you wait between If you divorce a woman when she get re- remarried. And so they ask him, "Well, what about don't menstruate?" And Muhammad's like, "Well, if they've not menstruated," and all the tough suras say it refers to women of any age, you know, young that haven't menstruated yet. >> referring to post-menopausal women. >> Yeah, they got to wait 3 months before they So, if you So, basically what that that that that verse of the Quran is saying, Sura 65:4 is like a 6-year-old can be married off, the guy can sleep with her, and then he can divorce her, and then they have to wait 3 months to repeat the process. Okay. Yeah. It's horrible. It's evil. But I mean, are there not Muslim academics who would go, "You're picking a crazy person on the internet called Daniel whatever, who's pushing an interpretation of the scripture that we actually don't hold to, and therefore you're attacking a straw man." He's got hundreds of thousands of followers. I'm not attacking a straw man, I'm attacking mainstream thought in Islam. Sure, there are some intellectuals, some academics, that take a more moderate view. Uh they're not the they These are not the spokesmen for Islam. The people that I'm debating the people that I'm trying to the people that I'm attacking uh like Muhammad Hijab, Ali Dawah, Daniel Haqiqatju. These are the spokespeople for mainstream Islam. >> basically to this what you're saying. >> They do, yeah. >> agree with the sex slavery, and they would agree with child marriage. Absolutely. >> This is really hard for my brain to wrap around. But think about how >> Sounds insane. And we are opening the door and letting them flood into our civilization, acting like, "Well, they can just they'll just fit right in." No, they won't. They're They're here to dominate. They're here to >> take over and turn these into Islamic countries where you >> what's taken place in London with the with the that's been taking place? >> Yeah, it's absolutely horrible. Yeah. And this is a result of Islam, you'd say? >> It's It's definitely Islam is definitely influencing their thought. Absolutely. I mean, it the the the Quran says the pattern of conduct for Muslims is Muhammad. It's in Sura 33, for example. Yeah, you have to submit to all of his decisions. That's in Sura 4. So, what he says, you have to you can't question it. He said it was okay to consummate a marriage to a 9-year-old. He That's statutory He raped a 9-year-old. He's a pedophile. There there So, therefore, in the Muslim brain, having sex with a 9-year-old is okay because the prophet did it. And now, sure, there 5 1% of Muslims maybe don't think that happened, but like 85% round that figure are Sunni Muslims that accept the Hadith. And there are numerous, I mean, dozens of Hadith that say that that's what Muhammad did. So, the overwhelming majority are going to be people that are going to be okay with child marriage. Even if they're not engaging with it, if they saw another Muslim doing it, they can't say anything about it.

Are there women influences in Islam other than that blonde lady? Yeah, there there there are some, yeah. And and how do they interact with these texts? >> They just have to defend it. It's It's terrifying to watch. You'll see them. Really? They'll try to justify it. I I don't know how you can justify this. It you You know, we're Christians. We'd be like, "Okay, listen, yeah. Moses did some bad things. That doesn't mean we Mhm. Okay, cancel. David. Yeah. David. >> Peter. Yeah. Yeah. Moses did something horrible in Numbers 31. I agree. We don't We don't We just say, "Yeah, he They messed up. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Yeah. Only Jesus is perfect. Mhm. Okay. For For Muslims, they can't do that. They have a They have a doctrine that prophets can't commit major sins. So, they have to defend whatever Muhammad did as if it's moral. Mhm. So, it's different for us. >> if you were to condemn marital relations with a 9-year-old, you'd be condemning Muhammad. Absolutely. Is there anyone with a significant platform that condemns? Not that I've seen. I wish. That's That's ridiculous. Yeah.

So, okay, then why is it that you think most people watching us right now, many will be like, "This is I don't believe you because I encounter Muslims and they don't say these things that you're saying. They just seem like decent people. They say their prayers. They seem more faithful to their prayers than Christians. This is hate-mongering. You're You're just trying to stir up animosity towards a minority group." My My first question is is where are you talking to? Where Where are you when you're talking to them? The Uber. The Uber? >> giving it an Uber. I'm just giving you an example like They're not going to say this stuff out loud because they know it's going to upset Westerners. That's what we have to remember. Okay, the Look at we have Muhammad as the pattern of conduct. Look at what Muhammad did when he was in Mecca, when he was a small persecuted minority, the Muslim community. You know, he tried to assimilate. He tried to be peaceful. He tried to say, "We're just not going to do anything." Then he moved to Medina and he got more power and then he started waging wars. He started flexing his muscles a little bit. And then when they became the overwhelming majority, then it was like, "No more Jews and Christians allowed in Arabia. Let's kill all the pagans." It's It's a It's a It's a three-stage plan. When you're the minority, just you know, pretend to be peaceful. Ibn Kathir, one of their one of their famous scholars, talked about this. You can make temporary treaties with them. Then when you become more of a substantial minority, start flexing your muscles a little bit. Start saying, "Well, we want to We want to blast the Islamic prayer five times a day, even at 5:30 in the morning," which we're seeing in places like Dearborn now. Godly. Then when they become the majority, okay, now we're in charge, Sharia is the law, you can either convert, you can be our dimmies, which means you're a Jew or Christian, you pay a humiliating tax, uh or you or you um fight us and we kill you. Like, you get those options, basically. Uh you can you can either convert, be our dimmy, where you're not going to have freedom of speech, not have freedom of religion. You're not And I mean, you see this, you know, in you Islamic countries now. Or, you know, or the third option is you fight them. But, um Christians in like, you know, Egypt, they can't proselytize, they can't evangelize. Sharia law says, you know, you can't proselytize as a Christian, you can't evangelize. You can't even carry weapons, so second amendment gone under Islam, absolutely. No no weapons for the Jews and Christians, absolutely under Islam. Uh you can't build or repair new churches under Sharia. You just have to let them because the goal is to eventually take over. So, they're not going to force you to be Muslim, but they're going to make it very, very hard for you to be a non-Muslim.

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I was in the Middle East giving some talks a while back and I met a group of Christians from Saudi Arabia. It was amazing to hear their story. Have I told you this? The problem with having a podcast is you forget how much you've said to people. And we've you've been on the show before, but yeah, I said there's this guy who's a driver and he drives around and picks up the Christians in secret and brings them to this house and it's the priest's house and um they have a couple of people around the perimeter with cell phones to call if the police are coming. They always have a birthday cake in the fridge so they can quickly turn the Holy Mass celebration into someone's birthday if they have to. And this I'm sitting across from them and I just feel so ashamed at how cowardly I sometimes am about my faith and I look at these people and really proud of them. They're like, "Would you like to come and talk?" And I'm like, "I don't I mean, yes, but also no." They talked about this conference they tried to have and it was in a barn. In Saudi Arabia? >> Yeah, I don't Okay, conference might be too strong a word, but it was some gathering at a barn and the police pulled over because there was a bunch of shoes outside of the barn and they said to me, "You wouldn't be executed. They're just That's great, yeah. Go I'll tell my wife. You'll just be uh deported, but but if you but if you if you lived there um you'd be beheaded." Yeah. Send me, I'll go. Uh Yeah? Yeah, we got to do something about this. It's bad. Uh there you know, that that's what they will do in the UK. >> Pilgrimage, let's do it. Who's with me in the comments? No, maybe maybe you and I can go. I'll do it. Yeah, I'll definitely go and help them. I mean like we need to. And uh well, the worst they can do is kill us. Yeah. >> It's not bad. We're going to get a new body anyway and then the way I the way I know, the worst they can do is make me into a martyr and as Tertullian said, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the new church." And that's Well, you might not need to go there cuz aren't you going to Dearborn, Michigan soon? I would love to, yeah. I'm going to go You might. So, tell me about what's going on in Dearborn, Michigan. Are you following it? >> It's awful, yeah. They It's so this Muslims are brought in long time ago to work in Henry Ford's factories and they've just taken over that specific area and they've turned it into like a satellite Islamic, you know, culture, civilization and Yeah. So, yeah, it's that they're blasting the adhan, the prayer the Muslim prayer five times a day. They're It's like their schools are like 99% Muslim. I mean, like this is They're they'll have, you know, rallies there chanting death to America. I mean, like you're Americans, I thought. Like What do you I mean, it's easy to point to Islam and point out the errors and fair enough, we should always do that. But also like what does that say about us that we have apostatized as a nation and abandoned Christ and the faith? Yeah, it's it's terrifying. >> We've said that men can have periods, that fornication is okay, that prostitution is sex work. That's the other kind of part of this argument for Islam that I can see. Like someone go Okay, it's simple, the brotherhood thing, it's masculine. Also, I don't know. Like are there Are there queers for Palestine in Palestine? Like are there No, they throw them all off of buildings. No. Is that right? Oh, yeah, you can't be you can't be publicly queer in Islam. You can be privately, I mean, because they don't want to bring shame to the community. Uh that's that's a problem happening. But I mean, like you're not going to get rid of all that sin just by going to Islam. They just sanction it. Again, you can have four wives, you can have as many sex slaves as you want. You can have child marriage. I mean, like marriage is not a sacrament in Islam. It's a contract. So, if a husband decides he wants to divorce his wife and get a new one, he can just do that. It's uh It's a lot harder in Christianity to do that because it's a you're violating a sacrament. Uh this is know, this is something this is a holy matrimony set up by God.

I wonder if the reason you see people like Tucker Carlson going against the kind of main I don't know the kind of understanding that you and I would have against Islam is um he rightly looks at the state of America and the state of morals within our country and despairs over it. Yeah, I I criticize >> the argument isn't Islam or or American culture as it currently exists. That's not what we're saying. No, no, yeah. >> As it currently exists is absolutely depraved and damnable and America doesn't exist to We don't deserve to exist as a country. Like when you're offering free sex changes {quote} {unquote} to prisoners, I don't know I don't think you deserve to exist at all as a country, but I definitely don't think you deserve to exist as a country when you're allowing pornography on airplanes. Delta flights, they allow sex scenes in front of children cuz they apparently hate children. So I get the outrage against the depravity of where we are. So anyway, that's it. I just wanted to say that. Well, I mean like it's it's not going to fix anything. I mean that Take something in Islam like polygamy. You may think, "Well, what's wrong with having four wives?" Well, humans have produced roughly 50/50% men and women. What happens when you have a society that has polygamy? Just do the math. If the top 10% each have four wives, okay, that means like the bottom 30% of men will be single. What do they do? They join terrorist organizations. They join gangs. They get more violent. People say that most terrorism happens in the Islamic world. Yeah, I I believe you because again, you have a bunch of violent young men with no hope of

A future. Uh, this is what the ancient societies did when they had large harems for the elites. They sent all their men to die and fight in wars. So, we're not now. The West sort of controls everything. They can't really do that. So, this is why they either there's so many Islamic terrorist organizations. I mean, you're not going to fix anything by going to Islam. You're going to have different problems. And they're, in many ways, they're going to be worse problems. Like cutting off your head to stop a nosebleed. Yeah, it's that's a good analogy, yeah. You've just made it way worse.

Mhm. Tell me about this debate you had recently with a fellow who tried to argue that since Islam means submission to God and Jesus submitted to God, therefore Jesus was a Muslim. Is am I getting that right?

Yeah, his name is Hassan Shibly. He's a he's an attorney in the US. Uh, very nice guy. One of the one of the Muslims I wish would be more, it's like this, you know, it's.

Does he disagree with child marriage? I hope so. I didn't ask him that, but I he's I think he would. I I think he would. I wish he was more of the spokesman for Islam, not people like Muhammad Hijab. Uh, you know, and then Hassan will debate. Muhammad Hijab will never debate me. Uh, but I mean, Hassan will. So, but we debated, is Jesus a Muslim? And yeah, it's the silliest position ever. Uh, they I just basically pointed out, okay, then I'm a Muslim. I submit to God. Well, you don't submit the right way. Well, okay, well, define what that is. Basically, the Quran says Jesus was a Muslim, so they have to say Jesus was a Muslim and then they have to have the most ad hoc definition, the most convoluted responses where, okay, to be a Muslim means you submit to God, but as long as you submit to God the way I want and I think Jesus did, therefore Jesus was a Muslim.

Mhm. And you just bring up stuff like, well, Jesus said that he's the son of God. Jesus said he's going to die and atone for sins. Jesus claimed to be divine. He claimed to be God. Now what? And so I started bringing that stuff up to him, and of course, he had no response.

Wouldn't the response be that the scriptures that you read have been corrupted?

And I simply asked, well, why does your scriptures confirm mine? Maybe they weren't corrupted in the 10th century, 11th century.

7th century?

Sorry, 7th century. I'm thinking of orthodoxy, sorry. 7th century, yeah. Yeah, so false. We have Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus, I think that's how it's pronounced. Uh, all these codices from prior to Islam that show the same message.

That they were corrupted at the time of Islam, you would expect these, yeah, documents from that time period to be corrupted, and yet they're not.

Yeah, and again, the Quran in Surah 2:41, 4:47, 5:43 to 5:48, 5:68, 10:94, 29:46 confirms our scriptures. Tells us to believe. Tells Jews and Christians to believe in the scriptures you have. Use those scriptures as over and over again, like a beating drum, the Quran is confirming our scriptures. So, if they start attacking our scriptures, they they're debunking Islam. There's no debate a Muslim can have with a Christian on the topic of Islam versus Christianity, which is true, which they can win. Okay. Because I can just say the best you can do is lose or come out tie. Cuz if you attack my scriptures, I'm going to just point out your scriptures confirm mine. So, what are you doing?

So, what's the tie?

How would they tie? Because they could say that they're both false.

Oh. I mean, because.

Seem like a tie. It seems like they would lose.

Exactly. So, this is the conundrum the Quran gives them, because the Quran over and over again confirms our scriptures. And the Quran says we can find Muhammad in our Bible. Now, where? Surah 7:157. Yeah, but I mean, where in the Bible? Oh, that says that somewhere in the Torah or in the Gospel. The snake. That that might be it, yeah. Maybe it's the the talking donkey that that spoke to Balaam, I don't know. But think about this, that creates a paradox for Muslims, because the Quran says they have to find Muhammad in our scriptures. But our scriptures, the prophecies in our book are theologically indexed. They teach Christian theology. So, [snorts] any prophet our scriptures predict would have to be in line with what the Bible teaches. So, this is another dilemma for Muslims. If there's a future prophet in the Bible, Islam is false because he'd have to preach Christianity. But if there is no future prophet in the Bible, then Islam is also false because Islam says there's supposed to be. So, that's another dilemma. I call it the biblical prophet dilemma. Either way, Islam is false. So, this is a paradox the Quran creates for Muslims. Find Muhammad in their scriptures. But if they find a future prophet, Islam is false. If they don't, Islam is false.

So, even though maybe in the West, it appears to us that Islam is on the rise. And maybe that just is the fact of the matter. Mhm. But what's taken place in traditionally Muslim countries? Are they thriving? Are they seeing a resurgence, a return to Islam? Is it No. Internet is killing Islam.

How so?

[Sighs and gasps] People are getting the People are getting this information out.

Minds of the Quranist. This show. This show right here.

Wood and you and yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't God logic in the world?

Really? So, what do you mean it's killing Islam? I mean, you have this you have this these arguments being presented. Is that the basic point that.

That's part of it. But think of the psychology. So, the the more of it Islam teaches they're meant to be a dominating, conquesting religion. They're meant to go out and take over the world. It's theirs. They can't right now. They're They're They're being dominated by the West. We have turned Islamic countries into our dhimmi, so to speak. They work for the United States. I mean, look at like Saudi Arabia. They They just, you know, when when we start attacking Iran, they do our bidding. Uh, that's just. And so, to them, they this they have this inferiority complex because their their holy book says they're supposed to be dominating the world. So, they're supposed to be dominating. Okay.

They're not. So, they're going, "Well, okay. I can't drink alcohol. I can't eat pork. I can't dance. I can't listen to music. What am I like? It it it's psychologically upsetting them because they're supposed to be dominating. The West is dominating them. So, it bothers them. So, people are worried about Islam taking over. I am, too. I think we need to fight this and do something about it, but let's let's there's a a brighter picture also in this as well. So, I looked up the numbers. The non- the non-Muslim birth rate, global non-Muslim birth rate, is 2.2. Okay. The Muslim birth rate is 2.9. So, you go, "Oh, no." Hold up. There's also some Muslim imams will admit 24 to 26% of youth are leaving Islam.

Mhm. There's clips online of them these different imams saying, "We're having We're dealing with an avalanche of apostasy."

Really? So, I'm going to go, "24% of Muslim youth are leaving Islam." Now, do the numbers. Now, is that because of hedonism and all sorts of.

It's secularism.

The point is it doesn't matter. They're leaving. They're leaving, yeah. It's It's It's a little bit People are wrestling with the contradictions in the Quran, like the Islamic dilemma. They're wrestling with the inferiority of their civilization, the superiority of the West, the moral problems of Muhammad do does bother them a lot. The fact that he did that, yeah. So, but do the math. If you take 75% of 2.9, it's going to get you to around 2.2. But, if you add that 25% to the 2.2, the non-Muslim birth rate, that's going to make it a little bit higher. So, based on those projections, if 24 to 26% of youth are leaving Islam, they're not going to take over. There There just isn't. Now, we as Christians need to get our birth rates up, for sure. We need to combat secularism, for sure. That's a problem. But, at least on this, not They're not projected to take over like they thought.

But, it's almost like we're talking about four different things. We're talking about Christianity per se, and then the cultures that are traditionally Christian, which have become depraved.

Yeah. And then we're talking about Islam per se, and then the culture that that inculcates in people. So, even if people are apostatizing from Islam, that doesn't mean they're not bringing in their their particular culture into Western countries when they migrate, right?

Well, you would think that. But, I mean again, what's the superior culture right now? It's It's Western civilization. As far as force is concerned, yes. As far as we've seen, I've not seen an ex-Muslim that is like, "Yeah, I'm I'm still as culturally Muslim." No, they want to become Westerners.

Yeah, but what I mean is it's not like they're leaving aside their violent passions necessarily when they leave Islam, are they? I mean, some might if there's like a virtual virtue revolution.

That's a good question. Yeah, I I don't I don't actually know. I've I've I've not seen that though, that's what I'll say. A lot of the people that I I deal with, a lot of the ex-Muslims I talk to, they just they become Christian or they're atheist, and they they just they're more Westernized than anything else.

I I think one of the good things we need to remember is what what what we know is that Christianity really has saturated the world and its culture. People think like Christians even if they don't realize it. Whether you're Muslim or not, I mean, like this is why people are so bothered by the moral problems of Muhammad today, and they weren't a thousand years ago. Because Christianity has saturated our culture and made it made it implemented in our brains that having sex with children is wrong. The ancients didn't think like that. The Greeks, the Romans, uh, the scholar John Martins notes that early Christians like coined a new term that meant child corruptor. Cuz they didn't want to use the traditional term that meant child lover. So, they coined a new Greek term that meant child corruptor, and they really started pushing this culture that having sex with children is wrong, which wasn't the norm in the ancient pagan culture. In in Islam, it was normal as well to have sex with children. And what is Why do we now think that's all evil? Has everything to do with Christianity changing the culture? So, even this dying culture in which we live is running on on fumes of Christianity when it condemns things like slavery and child sex and racism and.

Only reason slavery's gone is because of Christianity. You know, like when missionaries went off to Morocco, they went to abolitionists went there. They went to one of the governors there and they were like, "We're here to like campaign against slavery." And the guy the governor in there in Morocco said, "Well, we can't. That's against our religion." Because, you know, Islam is all pro-slavery and Christianity is the is what gave the uh the fuel to the abolitionist movement that ended it. I mean, that's just that's just a fact. I mean, if you if you actually study the New Testament, you'll come away with the idea that slavery cannot exist alongside the teachings of the New Testament.

I can do it three easy steps.

Go for it.

Yeah. So, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, you cannot sell yourself into slavery. You cannot voluntarily become a slave. All right. Uh, 1 Timothy 2 lists enslavers as a sin. So, you cannot force anyone to be a slave. So, right then and there, if the early church had followed those teachings perfectly, no new slaves would have been ever been made. They obviously didn't.

So, you can't make yourself a slave, nor can you be made a slave.

Exactly. What about those that were already slaves? Well, even on that alone, slavery should have died out if they followed it perfectly. They didn't. But, go to Ephesians 6. Slaves obey your masters. But, notice what Paul says right after that. Masters do likewise also. And scholars like Andrew Lincoln will point out, yeah, he's saying basically this is presenting equality. You're not going to have real slavery can't thrive in this if masters have to treat their slaves the way slaves treat their masters. Everyone serve each other. So, it's a radical take on the position. But, that would have that that's the fuel that uh gave rise to the abolitionist movement later on. And yeah, it didn't happen right away. But, if you actually study European history, they were doing so many things to end slavery. You'll see this pope be like, "All right, no more uh owning slaves in this area. We're going to ban the Venetian slave trade here. And then you see, you know, so eventually they were making these incremental steps towards ending slavery. People don't realize it. I did a video called how Christianity ended slavery when to when to huge detail on that. So by the time you get to like the 1500s, there's no more slaves in Europe. So what do they do? They go to Africa to get their slaves. And then there's a book called by Catherine Gerbner. She points out that when they brought slaves to the sugar islands, missionary showed up and they were like, we want to convert the slaves. And the slave masters were like, no, because if you convert them, we'll have to free them. So what could be more evil than preventing missionaries to try to convert slaves? Try to convert slaves, but but you got to think about it though, like Christianity didn't just wake up one day and decide to end slavery. If you study the history, you go through it, you know, you see them making small incremental steps to get rid of slavery. Like St. Anselm for example was campaigning against slavery. There were various, you know, like popes that would like ban like the Venetian slave trade or no more Jews owning slaves. Okay, no more Christians owning each other Christians as slaves. So yeah, Christianity gave rise to the abolitionist movement. It ended slavery. I wish it would have happened faster, but it did slowly end it because it took a while for Christianity to saturate and slowly change the culture.

So you, David Wood and Apostate Prophet and other fellows out there are doing really great work.

Thank you. I was so honored to have both David and Apostate Prophet. I don't know why I keep calling him that. That's his. Yeah. We just call him AP. AP. It was great to see the kind of work you all are doing. What kind of messages do you get from Muslims other than death threats? Are you getting people write to you who are genuinely questioning whether they should leave Islam?

Mhm. We'll get we'll do we do call-in streams. Okay. Come in and debate us, show us Islam is true. Do those a lot. Couple weeks ago we had a kid call in named Liam. Call in stream is still up.

Liam?

Liam. Yeah, he was a convert.

Convert to Islam?

Traditional Islamic name there? Yeah, no. He He converted when he was 18. He was 20 years old, but within an hour of talking to him he was broke down in tears and left Islam.

Bless him. How did that conversation go? I mean, people can go look it up. Maybe you can send me the link, please. We'll put it below for people to check out, but sum it up.

Yeah, it's I We just started showing them problems in Islam. Then he was He was very open to it. So, like we can kind of tell. And so, then we just started presenting the gospel and he I just It just I don't I I don't think we did anything. It was the spirit. The Holy Spirit did that.

Came on to question or to be aggressive with you?

How? No, he just wanted to have a conversation. He was not being aggressive. Sometimes you'll get the macho man Muslim coming, "I'm going to refute you and show off to my boys."

Where does he live, this Liam?

I don't know. We didn't He didn't say. We He sounded English though, speaking.

He was American, yeah. Yeah.

And he called and you just sort of It sound I mean, do you think he called wanting to get out? Wanting for a reason?

I don't think he he realized it. I think again the spirit moved. Wow. I He just when we started just talking about it and uh, you know, he's like, you know, he somehow we got on the topic of, you know, the God of Islam really doesn't love us, but you know, he's just he you you can only be his slaves. Right. You can't be a son in Islam. And And like, but you know, God does love you. That's why he died for you. And I just it started to break things down and he broke into tears. He says, "I feel like I'm Judas because I betrayed Christ." And I said, "You're not Judas, man. You're Peter. Peter betrayed Christ, too." But Christ called him back. He didn't kill himself and Christ called him back. So, that's you now. You now go out and be like Peter. And that's that's cuz you got to think in the ancient world what Peter did to the ancient mindset, him betraying Jesus, that was a that was a death sentence to the ancient mind. You betrayed your lord. You should either be killed or never return to him. And Jesus shows up and says, "Peter, do you love me?" And he goes, "Yes. Go feed my sheep." So, that's the beauty of Christianity, and that's what we're saying. Like, listen, all Muslims, you can be have that same experience as well.

But, [snorts] don't isn't isn't Allah referred to as the most merciful and compassionate? Like, he the Like, you make all the claims you want. If you're not actually that, you're not. Listen, there's a difference between Christianity and all the world religions. I mean, look at Allah. He's up on his throne throwing down commands. Do this or I'll send you to hell. Do that or I'll torture you forever. Only in Christianity did does God get off his throne and come down to us and say, "I'll live the way you should live, and I'll die the death you deserve and so that I can take you to my father." It's vastly different because Jesus is not a god who says, "Go and do as I say or else." But a god who says, "Come and follow me. You do as I do, and we'll change this world washing one sinner at a time." And so, which is really the most compassionate and loving? Which is the most merciful? Well, it's clearly the god who's on the cross, not the god who's on his throne and never leaves it.

Yeah. What suggestions do you have for those engaged in either online apologetics or in-person apologetics to try to point out the errors of Islam and to convert people?

Use the Islamic dilemma. Yeah.

It's It's Man, that's that's their kryptonite. They don't like that. Show them the biblical prophet dilemma that I've talked about. Start showing that stuff. Show them the moral problems of Muhammad. Show them the moral problems of Islam. I mean, there's research that shows Islam leads to violence. Uh leads to wife beating. There's a meta-ethnography was done showing, yeah, that we see that there's higher rates of domestic violence from Islamic families. Is this really a culture that God made? Is this really what the world that God wants? Uh, I mean, there was this great study done by David Brown. He looked at Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism. Yeah. And he found Christianity was negative is negatively associated with more war and violence. Buddhism was non-significant. Islam was positively associated with it. So, show them that kind of stuff. Start breaking down the the again, Islam is like the Wizard of Oz. When you start to break down those barriers, then you can present them the gospel. It to witness to Muslims, which we got to do, you got to first break down the Islamic illusion of superiority of truth. And then when you do that, then you can present the gospel to them. And that's the going to be the best way. So, use the Islamic dilemma, show them the Quran is contradicting itself through and through, show them that the Muhammad's not in our Bible, even if he was that means Islam is false. Show them that Muhammad the 9-year-old and all these immoral things. Show them the Quran Surah 65:4 allows you to have sex with pre-pubescent girls. This is an evil evil religion, and if it takes over the world, we are doomed.

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[Snorts]

Yeah. Who um I'm I've heard and I've heard so many times that I think there must be something to it, but I also am on guard against Christians um, you know, just hallucinating this. That is it the case that Muslims are dreaming of Christ? Is it the case that there is a wave of Muslims coming to Christ through.

I've heard stories, man. I mean, it's like you keep hearing it so much, you're like.

You get this I even heard it from a Muslim who didn't convert. He convinced himself it was a jinn. A jinn meaning for those at home. They're they're The closest analog is demon, but they're not exactly the same in Islam. I had to learn that. Uh, so, jinn, it's like these spiritual things that live on another plane of existence. But he said he had a dream of Jesus and he convinced himself it was a jinn. So, you know, that.

Yeah. Well, who was David's friend who Nabeel Qureshi. Yeah, like those dreams. If people want to go watch my interview with David Wood, he goes into that. Like those dreams he had. Didn't he have like three of them that were increasingly wild?

Yeah. That was amazing.

I mean, you know, people in those culture are really affected by dreams and Jesus is out there still getting ready to save people. And he still is saving people. He will use what works in various cultures. Dreams works in Islamic culture. I got a I got a friend of mine named Ish of Arabia. You've had him on.

Yeah. Uh, yeah, he had dreams as well. He ignored He said he ignored them for several years. But that that should tell you something right there that sometimes people get what they need to convert and they still don't do it. So, it just it really speaks to what Jesus says in the gospels that that they had Moses and the prophets, they're still not going to believe if someone were to rise from the dead.

Yeah, but I mean, think about if you tonight had a dream of Muhammad proclaiming the truth to you and telling you to convert. You would be like, "All right." No, I you're you're exactly right, but I would be like, "That is some serious evidence. Now I got to rethink things."

That's that was the the first time you had it, you'd be like, "That was weird." So, dreams alone aren't enough, but it might open you to the evidence of Christianity.

It should. Yeah, it should. Absolutely should. And people keep having them. I've talked to ex-Muslims who say, "Yeah, I had that." So, God is doing something. Who's the most if there is one, formidable Islamic debater out there right now?

Man. Is there one that you're like, "Ah, no, I can't debate him. He's too good."

Man, I want to debate them all. It's hard to think.

Really? I'll just say Muhammad Hijab so he agrees to debate me. But didn't you say he didn't want to?

What? Didn't you say he doesn't want to?

Yeah, I don't think he wants to.

Muhammad Hijab, is that his name?

Yeah. We I'd love to host a debate between him and you, if you want to, on the show.

I would do it, yeah. In a heartbeat. Okay. We could do it on his Islam is true, which is true, Islam or Christianity? I don't think he'll do it, though. Uh, but yeah, I would debate him. Um, of the Muslims I have debated, I'm trying to think who was actually a challenge.

Man, I can't It's.

And you're not being cocky. You just think they It's not Is it that you're so good, or is it that they're so bad and you're good?

I think it's just they're just so bad at it. I mean, I like I debated Alex O'Connor, he's an atheist, tough debater. So, I mean, I can I know when I'm debating someone who's he knows what he's doing.

Right. Uh, but in terms of list like people, it's hard for me to say cuz every Muslim I debated I just it's a facepalm after a facepalm.

[Sighs]

So, yeah.

And do you chat with Muslims after these debates?

Sometimes, sometimes no.

"My guy crushed you." Yeah, sometimes they'll admit it. But then they'll they'll never never on camera, I guess you could say. Uh, but yeah, I don't I don't know, it's hard to think right now because I've not I've I've not debated as many Muslims as I want to cuz a lot of them turn me down or give me some lame excuse or, you know, I gave a big list of Muslims to debate in the UK to some podcast over there for when I go. I heard from them and they're like, "We're having a hard time getting any of them agree to agree."

Do you think they're profitable debates?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah? People peo- The reason why debates are profitable is because you get to talk to an audience you're not normally going to get to talk to. When I debated an atheist in 2017, there was people who watched that debate that were atheists and they're Christian now. Because and that was their first introduction to my own ministry and my work. And so yeah, [snorts] absolutely. That's why I keep doing them because you get to talk to people that are going to watch for the other person and some of them you want to shake. You want to get them to realize, okay, maybe that guy actually has something and I should consider it and so.

Well, especially if you have the impression that your religion is the dominant, advancing, aggressive right? Religion.

That's how you think Islam should work and then you watch a debate where you or these other fellows school your guy, that can't be that's got to be embarrassing.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I've cuz I've heard from David that that's why he takes more of the aggressive approach. That us Christians are like uh Well, he's right. There's a reason we hold to what we call Judeo-Christian values. We don't call them Judeo-Christian-Islamic. Why why don't we do that if it's the other Abrahamic religion out there? Because their values are completely different to us. Whereas we, you know, having us good casual conversation might work better here in the West. To them, it's about projecting confidence, order, authority, power. And you show that and that's going to be more appealing to people coming from that background, that way of thinking. That's why you see them constantly thumping their chest for their audience. That's kind of their mentality. So, you have to come in and sort of show you can't come in and be like, "Hey, let's just have a nice little conversation." No, you got to come in and be like, "You're wrong. You're holding to a stupid religion. Here's the truth. Let me tell you why. Otherwise, you're going to go to hell."

Trent Horn released a video yesterday where he praised you for your debating tactics. Don't know if you saw it or not.

I did, yeah. I appreciate that.

Yeah, well, his point was uh, attacking ideas, attacking stupid faiths like Mormonism or Islam. Um, or modern day Judaism. I'm all I'm all for that as well. But, um, but to attack people like as he says a 12-year-old screaming into the Xbox headset is not at all what we're called to do.

Yeah.

So. Well, you got to do you got to you got to learn how to do it tactfully. Yeah. Yeah, you know, you can't be like the 12-year-old screaming, but you also have to you also have to still sort of project that.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's the it's kind of like authority, right? Like the man who has authority and knows he has it, he doesn't get worked up.

Exactly.

And, um, he can speak forcefully, but he doesn't kind of get shrill.

Mhm. It's like the times in my own life when I've got shrill or have acted out of emotion, even if that when that emotion was like anger, it's precisely because I don't think I have authority or I'm afraid I don't have the authority I wish I had. Um, and so I think that's right. I mean, you just look at those old William Lane Craig debates. I mean, the way he would turn Hitchens into a pretzel. And just so calm and he's like, I know exactly what I'm saying and I know exactly what you don't know and I'm going to show you.

Exactly, yeah.

God bless Craig, hey? I mean, Mhm. I know it's like a human thing to follow someone for a while until you kind of get over them and then you start getting critical of them, but he did so much for Christian apologetics.

Oh, absolutely.

So all of us guys were were listening to him. He showed us that he you can actually do this and do it well. You can get up there and do those debates and you can stand against these new atheists and you can we can take them down and then we've sort of carried that same confidence over into the Islamic apologetic battle. And so he sort of like he set the he gave us the road map to follow.

Yeah, well, let's let's talk about atheism for a little bit since this is kind of how you cut your teeth as an apologist. Were you an atheist growing up?

No, I I through a period where I was kind of like a deist, maybe. Yeah. But, I mean, like atheism never made sense to me. There's got to be a creator, I guess. It's weird, isn't it, how public opinion influences people? And by people, I mean, me. Um, you just think of the different waves of isms that roll through culture and make them seem maybe okay. You know how they say people usually vote the way their neighbors vote?

Mhm. I mean, you see why that's the case. I mean, gay marriage thing, the LGBTQ stuff. Like, right now, for many people, they go, "Whoa, that seems insane." Or like, "Whoa, two dudes getting married? How is that ever a thing?" Right. But, if you lived during those decisions, man, the pressure was so strong. I remember seeing adverts like, "Don't be on the wrong side of history." Like, I don't want to be. I I don't want to I want to be on the in-crowd, you know? And then the new atheism thing. That was just so pervasive. I don't know if a lot of younger people appreciate how pervasive that was. You just felt like an idiot. Dawkins was telling us outright that we were abusing our children if we taught them about Christianity. Oh. And who the hell wants to be an abuser of children? And and again, when that stuff's in the air, it can Unless you're intelligent, like there are people like I'm sure like yourself or other people I've had on the show like Dr. Ed Feser, you know, like who was a philosopher. So, when like a new atheist came in, he's like, he actually said that Dawkins wouldn't know metaphysics from Metamucil. And he said that during the height of it, you know? And it's just Anyway, it's it's bizarre. But, here's my point. It feels like the fog of the new atheism has rolled on by. And I'm looking around the landscape, and I see, you know, thoughtful, intelligent people who have what feel like or seem to be coherent, compelling, even arguments against the existence of God and Christianity. But they're not blowhards. They see I don't know are they probably probably are blowhards out there are they I don't know but the popular ones seem like they're nuanced and thoughtful and careful in a way that the new atheists weren't. So is it simply that the new atheists overplayed their hand and we all eventually saw it or if not what is responsible for this resurgence of Christianity in the face of what seems to be a retreating atheism in culture?

I think it's that they promised paradise and delivered nothing. I mean, they had promised that if we just all became atheists we'd enter an age of science and reason and leave superstition behind and it would all be great and wonderful and that that doesn't work for humans. They they never replaced Christianity with anything to like build culture to build society to build you know groups and friendship circles cuz we go to church every week. We have the we go to Bible study once a week in a lot of churches. You build culture. Atheism didn't offer that it just it's basically just offered people a hammer to walk around and hit everyone else's worldview. Which is fun. It could be fun for a while but eventually.

People did it. Eventually your arm gets tired and you're like well now what do I do? I mean, what think about though what atheism really offers the the average person. If you're a academic professor, if you're a media spokesperson, if you're the influencer, you have purpose and meaning. What does the uh the the stock boy have in atheism? What is Trolling. He gets to go online and say snarky things to stupid Christians and get thumbs up on his comment. If he gets a couple yeah he's lucky. Like what does the average Joe get from this? Nothing. He gets hedonism. Yeah, there you go. He gets that's that's something.

Get watch your porn, play your video games, get in your fights and then go home and die in a couple years. Humans were not made to live like that. We get really depressed after a while. Sure, you can be angry and enjoy the pleasure for a little while, but eventually you're like, "What's all this for?" So, atheism doesn't offer the average man anything. Whereas Christianity, you know, you tell them that, you know, the creator of the universe died for you. And he's got a plan for your life. Plan for your life. Your suffering means something. It's redemptive. It's making you a better, deeper human being. Yeah. I think all these young.

All will be made well. Sorry. I think all these young people raised by secular parents are asking that. What are we here for? And that's why a lot of them are gravitating towards Catholicism or Orthodoxy or even high church Protestants. Shout out to Redeem Zummer. Like, you get that kind of stuff. Uh, so, what I think is hap- And so, people are like, these young people are like, "I need something firm to hold onto." And they're going to the ancient traditions of Christianity cuz they want something that is real. I think that's right. I think that's a good assessment of how things are. It nothing was ushered in and it was like, "You will be more rational. Also, men need tampons in certain instances." You're like, "I don't know what happened." Or even [laughter] some of the new atheists were like, "That's not what we meant." Like, "You went too far."

Funny is as as atheism was beginning to morph into what the dictionary would call a religion.

Mhm. You know, like, okay, so we have a set of beliefs and these set of beliefs pertain to things like the afterlife, the existence of God, how human beings should live, but it's not a religion. You're like, okay, but it feels like a religion. Like, also, we should meet in groups, right? They even had atheist church. Do you remember they were trying that?

Tried it. Didn't work, yeah. That's really funny. And so, what would have happened, man? Imagine that. And then what happened, I guess, was even though they weren't able to usher anything in, there was enough of a thing that had to ushered in that then started to splinter, right?

Yeah. Who's that Matt Dillahunty who married that dude who thought it was a he was a woman or something?

Oh, yeah, I know, man, yeah. He has me blocked now. Bless Matt. Gosh, this is why the the opinions of the world are sand. They are nothing. They are dust. Cuz there are There was a time when Matt Dillahunty seemed like the smartest guy in the room.

Really? No, I take that back. I wouldn't say he's an idiot.

No, he's definitely not an idiot, but like he he would swing a punch and you you didn't want to get in the way of it. But then the more debates he did, the more everyone was like, "Hang on, all he's saying is I'm not convinced."

Exactly. He sounds aggressive, but.

And when I debated him, you know I responded with.

What did you say when he said.

I don't care. That's good.

I don't care if you're convinced. I'm right, you know? Oh, I got to watch that debate. I forgot that you debated him.

Him twice, yeah.

I just remember Andrew Wilson Yeah. ripping him, as we say in Australia. And you a-hole, that's an Australian saying. And Matt.

I'd like to apologize to everybody, but that is.

[Laughter]

But I mean Matt Dillahunty, I mean he he he rage quitted.

Yeah, and that if he would have just stayed there and had a conversation 10% of the people that watched that would have The fact that he rage quit made more people watch.

That's right.

He should have just did the conversation, dealt with the minor backlash from whatever happened in it, and then just went on with his life, and that would never have blown up. You got to be careful with that kind of stuff. Cali. Yeah, that's insane. But yeah. You [clears throat] ever rage quit anything?

No, not that I remember.

Have I done that?

[Snorts]

I don't know. I would It's always better that you sit there, go through it, whatever.

Open to rage quitting. I just don't know if I've done it. I may have. I just have I got up and left? I don't think so.

Mhm. But see, I've always said from the get-go that I'm not good at debates, cuz I'm not smart enough to think on my feet. That's not a So, I know that sounds self-deprecating, and it's not meant to be. I don't think I'm stupid. I just I'm not good at thinking on my feet, and I'm not good in high-pressure, high-intensity you know? So, I'm happy to have like a publicized debate with like Betooji back when he was Protestant, right? Because like I I trust him and we're actually trying but I'm not good at that. Mhm. So, anyway, maybe that's why I've never stormed off cuz I've never been in a situation where I needed it. Uh, you know, you got to be careful. Like don't don't ever do that. You rage quit, you're going to make your opponent famous. Who is the guy that got so and so to rage quit, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I hope someone rage quits debating me, but.

Yeah.

[Clears throat]

Yeah, well, maybe we could pay him.

[Laughter]

Or maybe you'll get an offer from a Muslim about how to Yeah. If you rage quit. Yeah. Oh, I thought of a a Muslim that I I think the the best Muslim debater I had was a guy named Suleman Ahkmed. He's quick on his feet. I'll give him that. He didn't know what a genetic fallacy was. So, his in his informa- He said Iran is not executing people that apostasize from Islam. So, not a not the brightest guy, but definitely quick on his feet, rhetorical.

It's some good rhetorical skills, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, what do you what's your opinion of the state of modern debates? Because it's almost like I don't know. I I feel like a lot of debates that take place. I'm not saying there's no value to the whatever podcast debates, but a lot of those things just feel like train wrecks on purpose.

They are to be, yeah.

Right, they're on purpose. Like let's make this the most disgusting down in the dirt, down in the mud uh debate we can cuz that's what people want. Like they don't want the old William Lane Craig debates where everyone had a lot of time and could have the time to lay out their position, you know?

Well, here's my here's my take. I think they've become performative performative in a lot of ways. Like people like who just sort of go to root for their own team. Yeah. And you're like, oh, that's not what a debate is for. But on the flip side, Okay, yeah. In in defense of dirty debates.

Listen, people need perform- performances. If they're not going to watch a debate, they're going to go watch a football football match. They're going to go watch hockey. So, if they're watching me debate someone and it's performative in some way, at least they might be learning something in the process.

This stoic demeanor where like that fellow you debated who sounded like a prosperity preacher who was Muslim. Assam Shibli.

Who I honestly think advice to him if he's willing to take it, you seem like a nice person but the way you speak it's like it's too performative. He would just speak normally. I think you seem great cuz there was a few times he would speak normally. I thought he sounds like a lovely fellow like I'd listen to him. But when he would talk like this, I'm like what are you doing? Anyway, you've got like this death stare like this death psychotic no offense to David Wood stare at your opponent where I wouldn't debate you about my middle name, dude.

[Laughter]

Yeah. It's my poker face, I guess. I don't know. Do you ever get rattled before or during a debate?

I don't I don't know. I'm trying to think. I mean, I've done so many debates. I mean, when I was debating Daniel Haqiqatjou on child marriage, I was trying so hard not to lose my cool because I study my opponents before I debate them.

Yeah. Figure out what makes them tick.

Oh, yeah. And I studied Daniel and he likes to set people off. He likes to cuz he uses and he's really good at using it against his opponent. So, I was like, I got to be stoic poker face the whole time.

Yeah.

To try to set me off.

Hard when you're trying to tell someone not to children.

And he's during the debate, I got him to admit that in.

Islam, it would be okay to have sex with a three-year-old and then a girl as young as 11 months in Islam. And then he also admitted that yes, in Islam it'd be perfectly fine for him to take a seven-year-old as a sex slave. So, and I'm like hearing all this and I'm like, how do I not jump over and choke the guy?

>> [laughter] >> Like and I just kept thinking, oh judgment day is coming. I uh That's when you pull a trendoidy. I will box you. And maybe in that situation it's okay.

>> Maybe. [laughter] I that I I'm I would allow that, but I'm just thinking like God, I hope he converts to Christianity and repents of this or judgement day I will be there. I'm just because He's a white fella. Is he another one of these white guys?

>> Oh, okay. Yeah. But is he American? He was raised in America, yeah. Was he raised Muslim though? That's my point.

>> says he was raised like secular Shia if I remember. Then he converted like hardcore traditional Sunni. You know, but I mean like it's it's evil no matter what. I mean Mhm. You know, it's It Islam is just not a religion compatible with the West. They are coming here to conquer, to spread their world, and if they take over, you would see things like child marriage. You'd see things like polygamy. I would I even will go so far as to say you'd see some form of slavery come back. They won't call it slavery, but it would be.

>> you what's funny, if secularism takes over, I think you'll see the same thing. That's because secularism can't doesn't have the birth rates. To like that would say if when people become secular, they have almost no children. So they don't pass on their culture to anybody. This is the biggest problem with secularism. It It does that. The good news is is that No, but I mean what you would see like if if hedonistic secularism takes over, which it seems to be doing a good job of, I think you'd see pedophilia mainstreamed.

>> Oh, yeah. For sure you would. For sure. Yeah, also perversions. I think you'd see some secularists push back because Christianity, the way we is so imbued in the way people think Yeah. that even there's many secularists that are like no, none of that.

Mhm. But that's but just to be a little optimistic Okay. Let's give it a shot. Go on. Think about that though, that even the secularists can't get away from their the their Christian ethics in the way they think. This is This is what I I just I just think Christianity's going to keep growing. Yeah, we have setbacks. We go through like these cycles where we have a little setback, but then we grow. We have revivals. We have these great awakenings. I think you know, we're just going through one of those cycles again. I think God knows what he's doing. So, you know, I I'm a little optimistic.

>> Good. That's nice. I needed a bit of that. I I I'm optimistic as long as we do our work. Yeah. You know, I remember in go to Acts, Paul on the ship, the angel shows up and says everyone's going to live. Did Paul sit back and go, "Great"? No, he went up and told the ship captain when people were trying to get over the side, he's like, "Unless those people stay in the boat, you know, you will not live." So, he go He knows he's going to He knows he's going to get through it all, but he still goes out and acts and does what he his part to get through it all. We just got to do that. So, I'm optimistic, but we still got to get our hands dirty. Get Get to work.

All right. Talk to me about the state of atheistic apologetics and the apparent Christian revival that we may be seeing or may wish to be seeing. I can't tell.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of atheists have sort of given up on that. They realized that they can't build a culture that can compete with Christianity. Uh I had a guy on my my YouTube channel about a uh year I can't remember his name. He's He's Jewish, atheist, and gay.

>> And he works for the Brookings Institute. Trying to remember his name. He wrote a book. Uh it's it's um He wrote a really good book where he just said, "Look, listen. We need a Christian culture."

>> Yeah. We we

>> Even Dawkins came out and said something like that, didn't he? He's culturally Christian.

>> Yeah, we we need we need more Christians

>> Right. As he got it out and then turned around and went, "No, but I actually like the culture. I don't like what's happening now." Like, "Well, thanks, dude, cuz you're kind of responsible for what happened."

>> Yeah. The book The name of his book was Cross Purposes. Okay. I can't remember his name. I feel apologize, but he was super nice, super great guy. But, he's basically saying I've I've thrown the towel in on a secular culture. We can't build it. We need Christians to be actual Christians and build a good culture because they gave us the West, they gave us the United States, and I don't want to see this go away. This is a gay Jewish atheist saying this stuff. That should make you So, I think that's happened to a lot of the atheists. They sort of realized, "All right. We were kind of bringing in too many Muslims. We don't want any We don't want Sharia law. It was kind of good with what Christianity gave us. We want this. So, they've kind of backed down and a lot of young people are seeing that and they're going to church. When I was in Nashville last, Apostate Prophet took me to a church with him, the Greek Orthodox Church. Great time. I love going to those churches. I can either confirm or deny if I go to them regularly, if you know what I mean. I was just so happy to see so many young men there. I mean, there were entire pews with just young men there. I I you know, I am hoping the young women show up first. Maybe it's a Maybe God's repeating a cycle. Adam was formed first, then Eve. So, hopefully the women come in soon. Because I just like I think a lot of these young people are like they've grown up with secular parents, they've grown up in a secular culture and they're like what is all this for? Atheism offers us nothing. This can't all be all it is. I'm I just can't live as this guy that works at McDonald's or this guy that works at Chick-fil-A or something. I There's got to be more and Christianity actually does that. Gives you a reason to live and a reason to build a better world. You know, I mean, like some historians of science will talk about how Christianity really gave us a culture of progress. You know, the ancients they looked at time backwards. So, like we say the future is before us. The ancients said the opposite. They said the past is before us. They would say that kind of stuff because to them the past you can actually see the past. You can't see the future. Right. But when Christianity comes on the scene, it gives us a culture of progress. Jesus is going to come back. We're marching towards that. Let's build a better world until he gets here kind of thing. And so, really the way it's it's hard to think about, but take take a look at a book by like Sacha Stern called Time and Process in Ancient Judaism. I did a video on it a while back. But, yeah, the way they thought about time was so different than the way we think about time. We're all excited about the future. We're marching forward. The ancients were like, "We're moving further away from the ideal past and our great kings. It's just going to get worse." So, I mean like the way we think even about time comes from our Christian our Christian background.

Mhm. Uh what do you think of the resurrection of Jesus Christ being an argument for the existence of God and Christianity?

>> Yeah. >> Think it's strong enough or do you think Christians just wish it was that strong?

>> It's absolutely strong. It's It's very Here Here's the way I sort of present it.

>> Please, yeah. So, the way historians wrestle about this is a huge conundrum of history. Some Jesus was crucified in 33 AD. Couple months later his followers are proclaiming he rose from the dead. This proves he's the Messiah. It proves he's the son of God. How do you get there? This is what secular non-Christian historians wrestle with. How do you go from a guy being crucified to his followers proclaiming he's a Messiah and even skeptics converting like Paul and James? They scratch their heads and like, "W- Okay." They come up with these really convoluted theories to explain all the data. And uh when you go through all the data, the best explanation of all the available data is that Jesus rose from the dead. So, think about it. So, the disciples were proclaiming he rose from the dead. Our earliest reports like the creed of 1 Corinthians 15 say Jesus appeared to multiple people including groups. He appeared to Paul who was a skeptic. He appeared to James who was a skeptic, not a believer during Jesus's life. So, you have Jesus appearing to groups. Okay? Like the disciples. Okay? Well, group hallucinations don't happen. Even Paula Fredrickson will be like, "They must have seen something, but I'm not going to say what it was, but they saw something that convinced them Jesus rose." This is a non-Christian saying this.

>> So, She's a Jew, isn't she? Paula? You said

>> Yeah, she's a Jewish convert, yeah. But to Christianity? No, to um to Judaism, yeah. Uh but then even like, you know, in like atheists like Gerd Lüdemann will say, "This creed was formulated within 2 years of the crucifixion." So, very early on they believed Jesus physically rose. Then you have to deal with the fact that the tomb was discovered by women. Okay, 3 days later. Okay, in the ancient world they would never make up a story like that because no one believed the testimony of women. They were very sexist, unlike today, you know, in comparison. I mean, people think we're sexist. Go back to the ancient world, it's thousand times, you know. So, but so you're you have this story in all four Gospels that women discovered this empty tomb 3 days later. Yeah. You would never make up a story like that.

>> You'd have Peter and Paul, maybe or Peter rather than Paul yet, but

>> Yeah, well, that's what we see in later apocryphal Gospels like the the Gospel of Peter. It's like everyone's there to see it.

>> Yeah. Uh so, you have that kind of stuff. Then you have can you have skeptics converting like if you would like well, they they hallucinated Jesus because they were grieving him. Well, Paul wasn't. What was going on with him? Yeah. You know, so start to Here's the thing. You when you bring all this data up to skeptics, they are very they get very magical in how they come up with well, maybe this happened to Paul or maybe this happened to the disciples or maybe they invented the story of the women discovering the empty tomb this way or that way or something. You make a theory that is so ad hoc it it's it is itself a miracle. You're positing group hallucinations, hallucinations that convince skeptics. And by the way, when people have hallucinations, like if a dead one who died, they don't think, "Oh, he rose from the dead." They think, "His spirit came in the room and I felt his presence and he's in heaven." That kind of thing. You don't think he physically got out of the grave. So, they'd have experiences so vivid, so real, they were convinced a body rose from the grave. Okay, that doesn't happen from hallucinations. So, that also happened to skeptics, that happened to groups. Yeah. Then you have other aspects like no Jew at the time was expecting a Messiah to rise from the dead. That just the the the resurrection was supposed to happen at the end of time. The Messiah was supposed to be a conquering war warlord basically. So, now you have a belief the Christian belief which is unlike the culture. So, it's not like it just came out of that culture. No one was saying the Messiah was going to die and rise. Like they were expecting it to happen. So, you have something unlike the cultural background, have these weird facts you got to explain away. At the end of the day, what is the simplest explanation? The most parsimonious? Jesus rose from the dead. Anything you going to compete with that is going to itself become a miracle because you have to posit all these convoluted once in a lifetime once in a several generation things to happen and they all just happen at the right time. And that's the difference between Christianity and other religions. We have the resurrection argument. Again, with other religions it's one guy got revelations and you just got to trust him basically. I think what's difficult for the Christian is it's a lot easier to tear down an argument or pick it apart than to build it. It is. I mean, if you were to ask me what am I most certain of, you know, I might say my own existence or something. Um and then human nature come along and say I can't know the self. Anyway, but if I said something else like you know like I would say, "Oh, my producer Maria exists." That's what I think. Yeah. You could pick that apart. You could 100% do that, right? Do it. Like she was a dream. She was a vision. Or you thought you were seeing her or she actually I didn't see her. Like why you know, it's actually kind of easy to pull apart. I think that's part of why it was so difficult for Christians to argue with atheists is because here we are trying to build up this thing and all they got to do is go It's much easier to take a hammer to a statue than it is to build the statue. And that's all new atheism does. It's just they have a hammer and they go around smashing everyone else's statue which is an analogy for worldview. That's all they do. So, I mean yeah, that that's the problem. They it's it's hard to build up a good worldview like it is to make a statue.

>> Yeah. It's easy to knock something over. You just You just sit there and say, "I'm a skeptic and I'm not convinced, so convince me."

>> Yes. Yes. Yes.

>> No. I'm going to And that's why when I debate atheists, I'm going to go, "I'm going to present the best explanation of the data." If I'm going to debate God's existence, okay. What gave rise to the universe? I'm going to say the best explanation would be a conscious agent. What gave rise to objective moral values? The best explanation is a mind, an objective necessary mind. What gave rise to consciousness? I'd say it's a necessary source of consciousness. I can present all of that and say, "Well, look, I I can explain all of this data with one explanation, God exists." Your turn. Offer something better. Yeah. If you can't, then I have the best explanation, and until you offer something better, I am justified in believing this as the best explanation. You're free to believe in whatever you want. You can have your faith in whatever. Yeah. I'm going to believe in what the evidence is showing me. I think this is why there was a redefinition of atheism over the last 20 so years.

>> Mhm. Um cuz it seems Okay, if you ask the question, "Does God exist?" There seems to be three basic answers to that question. Yes, no, or maybe. Therefore, it seems that there it'd be most appropriate to have three terms that would then be attributed to the possessors of each view. You have theism, atheism, agnosticism. Um the agnostic has nothing to defend cuz he holds no view.

>> Right. And that's why in those debates with William Lane Craig, to circle back to that, um they would get pretty upset when he would try to go, "Present something. Like, give me your reason for thinking God doesn't exist." And they would always say the same thing. No, no, no, no, no. An atheist isn't someone who affirms the nonexistence of God.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it's it's But if atheism can just mean agnosticism, then it's very easy to win cuz you get to smash down things and have nothing to defend.

>> Right. And I always say

>> Yeah. I I give an analogy sometimes. Like, okay, so if if my arguments for God's existence are like a boat that will get get us across the river. Like, let's get in the boat. All the atheists is doing is saying, "Well, there's a hole there. I don't trust that one plank of wood." And I'm like, "Oh, do you have a better option?" Oh, no, you don't. Great. I'm going to get in my boat. Until you come up with a better option, this is the option I'm taking. Sure, it's not the it's not perfect. I don't have the best arguments ever. I'm sure, you know,

>> That's good, yeah.

>> So, but I mean, it's still the best explanation right now. I do the same thing with like you quantum mechanics. What do you have to replace quantum mechanics with? Oh, you don't have a better explanation? Well, that's why the scientific community believes in quantum mechanics. The same applies to God's existence. All the data points to God existing. You've not replaced all of this data with a better explanation that it can account for all of it. Consciousness, morality, fine-tuning, the contingency of the universe. All of that can be explained with one thing, God.

>> Yeah, and then the genetic fallacy, right? Uh can can often be applied to people like us. Um but there is something to be said about, "Well, my choices are there being a world that has meaning and life after death and purpose or none of that. So, yeah. Like, I'll I'll bite the bullet and admit that I am I would like to I would like to think that my life has purpose and that there is something good awaiting me after death. So, yes, you're right. Congratulations. That is part of the what I'm factoring in here. But again, there's still this plank and even if it's not perfect, it's something. So, why would I What are you asking me to do? Exactly. You ask just Just just believe uh just uh believe in nothing, give up, and just live a hedonistic life for another 30 years. I mean, like But then again, there's Did you as you know, the genetic fallacy cuts both ways. It's like, "Well, I can come up with the reasons why you want to believe that." Well, yeah, of course you can. I absolutely. I mean, it's it's as John Milton said when he puts these words in the Satan's mouth, it's better to reign in hell than serve in heaven. Some people actually think that way. Sure, I don't have to Sure, there's no meaning in purpose in my worldview, but at least I get to reign there in this chaos of misery. versus serving your God in your worldview. It's wow, that sounds miserable, but that's the way some people think. They'd rather die on their empire of dirt than ever bow the knee to Jesus.

What would your advice be to someone who says, "Listen, Mike, I really want to believe in God, but I'm looking at the arguments for and against and for the life of me, I can't decide and I feel paralyzed. And I also think that whatever conclusion I might arrive at, there's someone out there who could argue me under the table, so I don't feel safe to actually commit to anything. But I want to Believe me, I want to, but I just I can't. So, I've got God up on the chalkboard and he's been there for years. What do I do?

>> Yeah, so I did I talked about this in a video I did on secularism a while back. I said, "First thing you should do is go to church. Just just start going. Listen, you don't have You don't make yourself perfect and then go to church. That's That's the exact opposite of what we're called to do in Christianity. Like just start going. Like Remember Remember Remember the man that brought his son to Jesus that needed that was demon-possessed and he said, "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief." That sounds exactly like these people. I want to believe, but I can't. Okay, then just go. We're We're saved by grace through faith. Is the point in saying that that like Okay, if God doesn't exist, you can still come. Yeah, like

>> We'd love to have you. Do you think Jesus is going to like reject someone because they're down here and they're saying like I believe I really want to You believe you exist, but I can't. Okay, just start going through the motions then. But what if I'm wrong, they'll say. Okay, then then then [clears throat] then you die and you rot in the grave because there is no God. I mean like Do you really want to live your life by the motto, "What if I'm wrong?" and never actually believe in anything? Do you want to live like a scaredy-cat? Cuz that's what that is. You're going to live like a paranoid cat. Afraid to go here, afraid to go there. Eventually, sometimes you just got to go into the nice old lady's house and go, "Actually, the cushions are kind of nice in here." That's what it's like coming into Christianity. You can either live in constant fear and worry and anxiety, or you can go, "Okay, I will try this and I will see if I find community, if I find something here, if I find hope, purpose, and meaning." So, just start going to church. Give your life to Christ, even if you don't know he exists. Just do it. Like, what is holding you back? Absolute certainty? You're never going to have that anyway. So, you're not We're not asking you to give anything up. We're We're We're offering you eternity if if this turns out to be right. That's just uh you know, a layman's understanding of Pascal's Wager.

>> Yeah, that's right. And then but someone will say, "But I'm afraid of being a hypocrite." How are you a hypocrite? Like

>> Well, I'm afraid of saying I believe something I don't believe. Um and I'm afraid of being mercenary. Like, I'm afraid of only believing in Jesus so I escape hell. That doesn't seem like a very righteous, virtuous thing to do. And I I So, I wouldn't commit to it until I can be quite convinced.

>> Well, I mean, you're not actually saying that. You're not saying I'm doing this cuz I'm afraid of hell. You're saying you want this to be the worldview that is true. You're saying this is what I really do want. So, I would like this to be better. What's wrong with that? Like, you're not No one's asking you to lie. No one's saying come to Christianity and also say, "Yes, you completely believe God exists." If you're still stuck in that that mentality, just come anyway. Like, you really think Jesus is going to reject somebody who says, "I can't believe in God. I wish God exists, but God, if you're out there, please save me. Please be who you say you are in the gospel." No, I don't think he's I don't think God is going to reject anyone in that situation. As again, then what did the man say that came to Jesus? Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. I think if atheists prayed that, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief, and they started going to church, they got baptized, they they started partaking of the Eucharist, I think they're in. We're not saved by our own works. We're saved by what he did for us. And I think we need to remember that. So, he's going to bring anyone he wants to the Father. So, if you want to be one of those people, just be there. And then yeah, you may not believe right away, but Jesus is not going to condemn you because you didn't have the right theology. Could you imagine if that was the case? I'd be buggered. We'd be screwed. Everyone would be screwed cuz we all have like what variations, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to get to heaven and Jesus is going to be like, well, you know, you were Calvinist or you were Arminian.

>> read this one document from the 14th century.

>> No, you're kind of

>> language in which it was written. Yeah, so if that's the case for us that do believe God exists, why can't that be this someone for who is an atheist but wants to be a Christian?

>> Yeah. What do you say about the argument uh of, you know, the the non-believer who wants to believe in God, but God he just can't. This I mean, I heard Alex O'Connor talk to Father Gregory Pine about this in a recent back and forth. There are atheists who claim that they want to believe in God, but they just can't. And so, this is somehow an argument against God's existence because if God does exist and wants them to be saved, he would need to make his existence plain enough to them so that they could go ahead and believe. The fact that he hasn't done that is an argument from the hiddenness of God, which I think would be like a subset of the problem of evil.

>> Yeah. Feel free to state that better than I just did because I think it's important that we still man the argument.

>> Yeah, that that's called non-resistant non-believers. They say they are non-believers, but if they got enough evidence, they would believe. Uh my first response is you You actually know that. People often will say, you know, we'll watch a movie and they're like, "Psh, if I was in the movie, I would do X, Y, and Z and do this." You're like, "Well, that's what we often do. We're great Monday

>> Totally. Great Monday

>> quarterback. If I had lived in Nazi Germany, I would have resisted Hitler. Exactly. We all think that about ourselves. And then we get in situations like you see young men go off to war and they're cowering Yeah. as the bullets are flying. And you know, I I get it. But stop stop pretending you know your entire psychology.

>> Okay. Like people spend years in therapy trying to understand their own psychology and learning stuff about themselves they never knew. You might be surprised. So, when people say that, okay, you're saying that, but I don't know if that's true. I don't even know if you know that's true. So, we got to we got to first think about

>> Hang on. Okay, let me push back cuz can't this be the case? Can't it be true that say you're God, you want me to believe in you, then isn't the onus on you to make your existence at least obvious to me? Maybe I'll reject you. Mhm. But if you haven't made it plain to me, I don't even have that choice to begin with. So, we have to remember that God's moral obligations are going to be different for him. So, maybe he does know that, but he also sees all possible futures. Maybe if he knows he gives you some evidence of some sort, you're going to reject him, but it's also going to make your life worse or it's going to make you into a worse person. Like let's say there's some atheist out there and God gives him evidence. And he doesn't convert to Christianity. Instead, he use he becomes a prosperity preacher and does all sorts of horrible things. Well, maybe it's better that God doesn't actually give evidence to him cuz he's not actually going to become a real Christian. He's just going to become a swindler, a snake oil salesman, and use it to take advantage of people. We have to remember God is omniscient. He knows all these possible futures. He knows when it's right to put in evidence. Maybe God also knows if I convert that guy now, he's just going to be a Christian and live in France or something. But if I wait 14 years, he's going to open a orphanage in Africa. So God knows all those possible futures. He knows what he's doing. He knows hey, maybe if I do actually try to convert this atheist, it's not actually going to convert him, but it is going to turn him into some radical, you know, prosperity preacher or radical Satanist or something bad. So, no, the onus is this doesn't make God guilty of something because again, we don't have the knowledge he would have in this kind of situation to know that kind of stuff.

>> under no obligation to make his existence apparent to somebody, you're saying.

>> Yeah, but I also agree

>> Overwhelmingly apparent.

>> Overwhelmingly apparent. I think there's plenty of evidence there. I think it's I think Pascal said it, there's enough evidence there for anybody who wants to be convinced and enough that's not going to be forced upon us. It is interesting when you look in the book of Exodus and you've got, you know, the Red Sea parting and pillars of fire

>> Well, think about that.

>> and yet people have rejected him, yeah. Well, yeah, think about that. I mean, like God made himself obvious to the Israelites. And what did they do? They demanded quail. They demanded to go back to Egypt. So I mean, we have this idea that if they just got more evidence, they'd be convinced. But Jesus says in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, no, that's not going to work. So here's my challenge to those who are watching right now, who might be skeptics or atheists or just seekers. Pray that prayer. Like right now, pause this video and pray that prayer and tell us that you prayed it in the comments section. Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.

>> Mhm. You know, and what could that mean? That means something different to different people. It might be I believe that there's something, but I don't believe that you're it or I don't know. I believe that I want to believe, but I don't know how to.

>> Right.

>> Reveal yourself to me in a way that I would understand. Pray that prayer. Yeah. I prayed that prayer when I was 17. I came home so happy from Rome. I don't know if you know that story. I was obnoxiously happy. I became one of those people.

>> [laughter]

>> Dude, I was so on fire. That's good.

>> Oh, man. I was so in love with Jesus. It's like everything became colorful and I didn't understand what was happening. And trying to explain that newfound faith to my friends was like trying to explain color to people who only knew black and white.

>> Mhm. That sounds maybe I don't know how that sounds. Maybe that sounds like I think I'm better than them or something. I hope that's not it. It's just that I didn't know how to communicate it. I actually came home thinking, this is actually my thought process. This is bananas. This is how real it was to me. I really thought that all I would have to say to my friends is, "I know I thought it was just a story that people invented to be happy as well, but it's not."

Mhm. I really thought it was that apparent to me that I thought if I just say that they'll come along with me. Got a bit of a shock.

>> [laughter]

>> Wasn't exactly what happened. Some people came along with me, but yeah, golly. Mhm. Yeah. It's like it's like Plato said, you know, people are in the cave looking at the shadows and you've come out to the light and it's like, "Guys, there's really something out there." And

>> Yeah.

>> no one wants to turn around. Yeah. You know, we just got to keep praying. But I mean like, you know,

>> [sighs]

>> uh God knows what he's doing. There's a reason he chose Jacob and not Esau. I mean, there's a reason that he acted in the time that he did. I mean, think about when he came in the flesh. It's actually the perfect time. 98 I think 95 98% of people that have lived on this planet have lived after Jesus. He came when there was a universal language spreading around Rome, Greek uh for example. They built roads, easy to move from place to place a lot more efficiently. Making evangelization more possible and easier. It's perfect time for the gospel to start. I mean, sometimes, you know, it's hard to see this stuff in the present, but when you we look back at the past, we go, "Okay, now I just kind of see the plan unfolding. I see where it's going."

Mhm. Well, let's talk about the moral life and the and the prayer life. Are you able to talk a bit about that? Cuz I mean, you you you're quite smart, intelligent. You talk abstractly about things very convincingly, but how is your own Christian journey going?

>> [laughter]

>> I mean, I'm kind of my brain has always been very analytical. Yeah. I don't get too caught up in emotions. It's just the way I am, I guess. Uh my I think I'm pretty emotional. I feel like I feel like the Lord speak to me and I I I hear him and I'm moved by beauty a lot and I cry in prayer and things like that. But I also have that other side to me, too, like yourself, where I get very analytical about things.

>> I was sitting with a lunch with John McCrae of What Do You Meme and David Wood

>> Yeah, David

>> John from What Do You Meme? I mean, he's terrific. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. David Wood is a is a diagnosed psychopath. So, he has like no emotions. He was on my show telling me he doesn't know what guilt means.

>> Yeah.

>> [laughter]

>> John McCrae looked at me and says, "You're like half psychopath."

>> Yeah, I was going to say.

>> You're like half.

>> That's what I meant earlier when I said you're staring with that like Yeah. You remind me of Trent. You have something like that Trent has. There's something going on. You're similar to Trent, like

>> That's cool. I'll take that as a com

>> No, it is a compliment.

>> Yeah. Cuz Trent in his book answering atheism talks about how jealous he has been in the past of people who have these profound experiences, like these profound heart experiences of God. He said the closest he's ever had is when he was at Gethsemane. Uh no, Golgotha, where he put his hand on the rock that Christ apparently died near or he said he had something of an emotional experience then, but that's very rare.

>> Yeah. Is that like you? I guess so, yeah. I The more older I get, the more I'm like that. I think maybe when I was a teen, I had more emotions, but the older I get, the more they just sort of fade into the background. I don't know. I I think I'm slowly turning into my grandpa, who is so grumpy all the time.

[laughter] No, you've been the optimist in this conversation, so. Well, I I I'm just thinking of the data and the numbers, and that keeps me optimistic, which sounds Yeah. not true, but I mean, like when I can see the numbers on the page, I'm like, "Okay, we'll be fine." Yeah. You know, but I mean, I'm just I don't know. I'm just very analytical. Show me the facts and I'll I'll be I'll I'll go do it. Like I've changed my views on stuff.

>> Yeah? You know.

>> Like what? Well, I used to hold to the that the Exodus happened in the 15th century BC and then I released this huge documentary on it and then a week later I took it down cuz I talked to an Egyptologist. He's like, "Actually, he convinced me it's 13th century BC." That's where the data is. I got to follow it. So, I worked for months on this documentary, take it down. It's not It's not true. Pissed off a lot of people. Don't care. It's not It's That's That's where the facts are and I redid it a year later with the 13th century date.

>> Really? Yeah, I think the last time you were on you were about to release it for the first time, if memory serves. Maybe. Maybe it was I may have been the second time. My memory often doesn't serve, so sure, maybe it was the second time. So, yeah. Yeah, it's uh What's going to So, I mean, I've done that kind of stuff. I've pulled other videos and taken them down because someone contacted me and said, "Hey, this is wrong. Fix it." Like, "Oh, yeah, you're right. I will fix it."

What would you like to see happen um in Christian apologetics online? More. Uh-huh. More of them. I want so many Christian apologists online that I'm out of business. Yeah. I think there should be so many on there that there's just not enough donations to go around and I have to retire and stock shelves.

What would you like to stop seeing among Christian apologists online? Fighting with each other. Just like, come on. I don't care about Protestants versus Catholics versus Orthodox versus I mean, come on. Is your point like Lewis, like have those conversations and have them vigorously, but realize that you have a public platform and everyone's watching and you do a disservice, something like that?

>> Exactly. Yeah. Cuz I'm not I don't I'm not against interfaith back and forth because as a Catholic, I want everyone to be Catholic, obviously. Mhm. Um and so I think there's a place for it, but I don't like seeing the nasty stuff. You know what I agree. Trent Horn says like if St. Paul was around today, he's pretty sure that some of these people would accuse him of being a tone-policing feminist.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah. I I people to be yeah, kind kind to each other as they Listen, there's a there's a time to not be kind, there's a time to be kind. You got to know how to do it right. A lot of people don't unfortunately. And but I'm I'm just staying out of a lot of that. We have we have a bigger fight. And if we can get there That's what I'm trying to do. Like honestly, I'm trying to stay out of the drama. The drama keeps trying to get me. I got these people coming I had this woman recently on Twitter I won't even say her name because that's me being out of the drama. A while back she's like, why are only like 13% of your most recent interviews women? What does that say? Just asking questions.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah, we did it is ridiculous. We did a big like been 2019 a bunch of us apologists got together at a house in South Carolina to just sort of like network and talk and do videos together and then people were like, why are there no women there? Because it's a house of men.

>> Yes, and also women are baking the cookies. So how [laughter] why would you expect them to be in two places at once? But that's sort of like sarcastic reply. On it's unfortunate but it seems like the best response at times because I know that that question isn't asked in good faith. I know I can see that you're pretending to ask it in good faith but I I don't believe you. No, they're not no. They're just trying to stir up stuff but I stay out of that. I get attacked by other Christians sometimes and my response is going to be silence for probably nine times out of 10 because I have more important work to do. I need what I'm trying to build the church and it'd be a lot easier if we stopped giving each other black eyes while we do that.

>> Yeah. Listen. We may not agree, the Catholics will fight the Orthodox Orthodox Catholic, Protestants will fight as well. If we stop that and we just focus on getting people in, we will do so much better and people will see that we're working together, they'll be happier, they'll realize there's something here. Can you just guys can you just stop for a minute

>> Five minutes. work together like you know, and then so I want to see more Christian apologists online and I want to see them working together regardless of their background and if we do that, some magical things will happen. Some great things will happen. I was talking to Shane Smith recently and he was talking about one of the pieces of advice he was given as a new comic is like, "Don't criticize other comics." And you know, there's something to that. Like I I think of Jerry Seinfeld whose interviews I like to watch. I find him really insightful and articulate about these. And I don't ever hear him criticizing other comics and um that says a lot. Might be cool if we took just a little bit out of that.

>> Yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm trying right now to promote and build up other apologists.

>> Yeah. Who's on the rise that you're excited about? Uh there's a guy named Fearless Truth. His name is Nick. He's an Orthodox Christian, super smart. A lot of good ex-Muslims. There's a guy There's a Turkish ex-Muslim from Australia. His name is Enes, e n e s. Okay. He's doing some good stuff. Ish of Arabia is doing some good stuff.

>> Great guy. Yeah. I mean, there's lots lots of good Tik Tok stars growing up. A guy named Coley is growing. Uh you got Thea's Brooks as well on Tik Tok.

So You were telling me about a debate between God Logic and Jacob Jacob Hansen. You were there. How did that go? Man, I God Logic is doing some great stuff. Yeah. He's He's new to the scene. He's growing like crazy. He's already, you know, gone viral, but he's one of our best debaters, if not our best debater. I just he's he's got the rhetorical the rhetorical edge on everybody and he knows his stuff. The more he does, the more he learns. So he's just getting really good.

All right. I got to watch him. You've You've convinced me. You We were talking before this show aired, right, about watching that interview with uh sorry, debate he did with Jacob. I've had Jacob on the show. I like Jacob. Um but who got the better Who won? God Logic won. But there because God Here's the thing.

>> You're only saying that cuz you're a Christian. Listen, I God Logic won because A, he stayed on topic. Jacob went off and just tried to show the Trinity was illogical. That wasn't the debate the debate. The debate was does the Bible teach the Trinity? Okay? God Logic stayed on topic. He got He went on rhetoric. I would think that is does the Bible teach the Trinity in some ways could be more difficult to prove than is the Trinity logical? Not sure. Well, yeah. But God Logic did. He got Jacob to admit, "Yeah, there's the Bible speaks of one God who's three persons." He He did not get Jacob to Watch the debate and then watch when he does cuz you'll you'll know when it happens. God Logic gets up and walks off the stage. Wow. Now, to be fair to Jacob, he didn't mean that. But the way it plays out, it definitely looks like that cuz that's what I mean. God Logic is good with his rhetoric. He knows how to get people where he wants to get him to say what he wants. And then Jacob tried to rescue himself after, but it didn't sound well. And then he's playing with semantics and ambiguity. And then again, Jacob just kept trying to argue the Trinity was illogical or that God Logic didn't fully understand what the Ecumenical Councils taught, which is fair, but that's not the debate.

Uh-huh. You can You can have those minor punches in a debate, but if you don't win the topic, I don't care.

>> Yeah. And God Logic won the topic. God Logic, God bless. And that That's his name of his channel. God Logic, yeah. His name is Avery. God bless you, Avery, you beautiful bugger who I've never met or seen, but can't wait to watch your debate tonight now that I've been told about it.

>> Mhm. It's It's It's great, yeah. Yeah. Good stuff, man.

>> Yeah, it's a definitely a definitely one to watch. I will tell you that.

>> So, listen, you're prolific in your YouTube channel, but have you written a book? Man, when I get the time, I will.

>> Yeah? I feel like you've probably written so many scripts that you could have someone throw it together in a book.

>> I know. The way The way I think of it is like this. It's like I'm trying to build the church, trying to get more people Christian.

>> Yeah. I can make a book which maybe a thousand people will

>> point. The book has cred, right? Because it just

>> [laughter]

>> I don't know. It's got cred, but how do I make a video

>> you can reach more people through a video that's well put together. Exactly. Do you remember that video that Cameron Bettencourt put together? I think it was 10 hours of arguments.

[laughter] Yeah. For God's existence. God bless Cameron. What a guy.

>> Yeah, that's I mean so I'm like yeah, I'd like to write a book. It gets you gets you cred. But at the same time I'm focusing on more important things right now than my own [clears throat]

What are you working on now? on legacy. I'm still making videos. Uh I'm going to working on a big long series on the resurrection, making

Some more videos debunking Islam. Do you do, but do you still do debates? You want? Oh yeah. Dude, come on this show. I'd love to host a debate with you if you ever wanted. You, anyone? Yeah, I'll do. Hey, just tell them. Right, tell the Muslims. Go. Muslims, come on this show. Debate. This is a huge platform. I'm going to show up. Ali Dawah. Come on, let's do it. Do you prefer? Take with mine. Do you prefer in person or virtual? In person. I will, I will prioritize. I don't like virtual debates a lot. That's because there's a delay and so you're always talking over each other more. So if, if you're going to, if I'm going to do a debate, I'm in person. If it's virtual, I'm like, I'm not. I'll get to it when I get to it. I got other more important things to do. Yeah, I guess as a listener though, right? I like the in, the in-person debate. Do you remember, I don't know if you saw that debate between Trent Horn and Destiny on the whatever podcast? That was wild on abortion. Man, Trent is very good at what he does.

But I like that as a consumer because I'm not, I'm not getting distracted by the laughter and the claps and the applause. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, there's got to be a way to thread that needle where we have you in, maybe we could make this work. Have you in studio. Maybe we could have some people around just to have some kind of life to it. Or do you think it would be just as good as if we had someone at the table doing the debate? Like, when you say in person, I guess are you talking about just two people at a table, or are you talking about a crowd as well? I, either or. It's, it's, I, I like the crowd, for sure. I guess if I had to pick, I'd want a crowd.

Dude, let's stop doing it. Yeah. Maria, I hope you're listening right now. I, let's start. Yeah. Let's rent out a pub in Nashville. Okay, I'm in. Tell, I've done debates in pubs. One of my famous debates was with a guy named Aron Ra, was in a pub in Fort Worth. What? Yeah, what is that debate society called? Cuz it's not, I saw that one debate you did has like the blue and white logo behind and do there's a big banner. Modern Day Debate. But there's one they do in Texas. Yeah, there's like the Bible and Beer Con. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, yeah. That looks cool. Yeah, that was fun, yeah. Uh, so, yeah, I did debate in a pub, went really well, and that, that's a debate where someone watched that was an atheist or a Christian today. That was their first step towards it. So, that kind of, that's why I'd like doing those, you know, cuz you'll hopefully get people like that.

We're going to do it. And then, what's your suggestion on how to make it produce both light and heat? Like, I appreciate your point. Like, people want performance, and that performance isn't bad. Mhm. No, it's not. But, we want to be predominantly light. What, what's your suggestion on how to make that happen? I mean, it's, it's really depends on the debaters. You get the right people in there. You don't get somebody who's going to lose their temper easily. You get somebody who knows what they're doing. And, you know, I, I've done this for years. I've tried to become a better debater with every debate and try to not, I never want to be that guy that just becomes the 12-year-old that's going to rage quit on, you know, playing Halo live. So, it depends on the people mostly. And, you know, which also good for debates is this is you get them, you talk to them. You, you, you meet before. You say, "Hey, nice. You recognize they're a person." Yeah. Across the table from you. So, it's really good when you're debating someone, you meet with them before, you shake their hand, you say, "Nice to meet you. Thank you for agreeing." It, even if you have dinner the night before, that's even better. That's one of the things I, I kind of am disappointed when debating Muslims is they, their religion says that they are to hate us. So, there's not a lot of that.

That's unfortunate. You know, like I'll, I'll see these guys, these Muslims show up for the debate and then they leave right after. They don't want to talk to you. They don't want to be your friend. It's sad, really. It's really sad to see that. But that's just Islam. They, they, they are told that we are, the Quran says we are the worst of creatures. It says they are the best of people Allah has raised up. That we are not, they are not to be friends or allies with us. They are, we are to be hated because we rejected Allah as messenger. It's really, compare that with Christianity. Pray for your enemies. Love those who persecute you. Pray, pray for them. Which is more likely to come from God and which is more likely to come from Satan? Mhm. Yes. I'll let that be a rhetorical question because I agree with where that was headed. Yeah. Yeah, and isn't it true that Muslims are taught to lie to infidels? Taqiya. What? Tell, tell us about that? That's a great. It's a great Mexican gift. No, I'm kidding.

No, it's, um, taqiya is like, yeah, so if you're in war with the infidel, you can lie to deceive them. Here's the problem. A lot of Muslims point out that they are, they're in a perpetual war with the non-Islamic world. The Muslims divide everything in the two houses, the house of Islam and the house of war. If you're not under the rule of Islam, you're in the house of war. Therefore, they can lie to us. They can do all sorts of things. And Muslims will kind of admit this occasionally. Sometimes they'll be like, "No, no, that's only for like in battles and fighting." They'll try to downplay it. No, it's, it's real. They will lie to us, tell us what we want to hear to let us bring them into our culture. So, you're saying that when you're in an interaction with a Muslim, they may have that as a tactic? Oh, they do. I see it all the time. I, I mean, you'll see a Muslim debate and they'll be like, "Yeah, well, this philosopher said that." And you'll go check later and you're like, "He said the exact opposite." Woah. Yeah, you'll see that stuff all the time. It's really sad, but yeah. There, it's, man, it's, I, I mean, a lot of their top Muslim apologists are, we, we, they're pathological liars. They will lie through their teeth about like, you name it, anything about Muhammad and the stuff he did and then we have to, we have to keep bringing up their own sources to show them what they actually teach. And so, yeah, there, it's part of Islam to lie, unfortunately. What's the motivation, right? Because as a Christian, if I get into an Uber with a Muslim, we start to talk, I hope that my motivation is that he would come to Christ and find salvation. Right. What's the motivation for the Muslim? Is it the same thing? The ends justifies the means. And what's the end that they're going for?

That they get you into Islam and then Islam grows and gets a little bit more powerful. So Ali Dawah is a major Muslim apologist. He has admitted that there's an argument that he was convinced for Islam. It's called the scientific miracles in the Quran. That the Quran contains knowledge that no one in the 7th century could know. This is scientific miracles. I hear this. Embryology, etc. It's all a bunch of BS. Yeah, I mean, but he came out and said the scientific miracles argument has been debunked. But that's what convinced me that Islam is true, he said. But he's staying in Islam now. So in his mind, a lie got him to believe in Islam. And that's okay. That's a good thing cuz it got him into Islam. Yeah. So to them, they can lie to us if we become Muslim because ends justify the means. They'll get us into Islam. So who cares? That's the exact opposite we have in Christianity. So would this Muslim encourage people to use the scientific argument to get people into Islam or not? I think he would. I, I hope I'm wrong, but I think he would. Like I, because I've seen he was on another podcast with other Muslims, like this guy named Sonny Foss who's blocked me, won't debate me. Uh, he was bringing up scientific miracles and no one was correcting him. Even though they knew it, they know it's debunked. But that's, that's, that's Islam, man. If they can convince you to become a Muslim on a lie, that's a win for Islam. Could you imagine the same in Christianity? We'd be mortified. Like, yeah, if someone invented a story about Jesus appearing to George Washington or something, you'd be like, wait, no, that that didn't happen. Did appear to the Native Americans, didn't he? Yeah, sure. Wait. Sorry. No, no, that was that was the American Muhammad. Yeah.

Let me ask a final question to wrap this up. Tell me about why Joseph Smith could be thought of as the American Muhammad, if you even agree with that. Yeah, man. You think about it. I mean, both of them claim they had an angel appear to them and they're going to fix the world religions because they've gone astray. They had multiple wives, including a child bride. Uh, Joseph Smith had a child bride? Probably a 14-year-old, you know. He had more wives than Muhammad. He was much more strong and. More wives than Muhammad? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, gave his followers like certain laws, like can't have alcohol. I mean, you know, it's, it's very similar in that, you know, okay, I'm the prophet. You should listen to me. I'm the greatest of these prophets. And I'm going to, I have my own scriptures you need to follow and believe in. Very sim. Both Islam and Mormonism right there. Uh, so I mean, yeah, there's differences, but there's also some just eerie similarities. It's like the same demon that choked Muhammad in the cave showed up to Joseph Smith years later or something. Let me ask a final question, right? So, Lewis, drawing from the church fathers, Christ is either who he claims to be or a bad man, right? So, lord, liar, or lunatic. Mhm. Um, and I guess demonically possessed you could fit under lunatic, maybe, I don't know. But how would you, what would you say of Joseph Smith and Muhammad? Prophet, liar, or lunatic? And it, or is there a fourth option? I mean, a third option. I guess the third option could be they're apocryphal, but.

If I had to pick, it'd be lunatic. Yeah. I mean, it, it. Lunatic for Muhammad? Yeah. Yeah, I think he, I, honestly believe he really thought he was a prophet. I think something happened to him in that cave. I don't think it was an angel. I don't think it was something else. Yeah. But so in that case, maybe he was like demonically inspired. I think he was, I thought, I think that it got started, and then when he was thoroughly convinced, he started making up things that, you know, so I don't think the Quran is like written by Satan. I think some of it did start that way, but then he, Muhammad, was like, "All right, I'm going to run this ship now." And he started putting things in there that, you know, gave us the tools we need to debunk it today. Let me ask you a question that the Mormons are going to ask in the. Mhm. In the comment section, cuz whenever I talk about them, they get really upset.

That's fine. I'm, I'm fine with the. Why not, uh, why be like this? I mean, you just got saying you got done saying that we should all like unite together and stop criticizing each other. Why would you criticize uh Joseph Smith? Because Mormons are not Christian. And I want them in the, I want them in the kingdom. Dude, okay. Why? Uh, because they deny essential Christian doctrines. They add a prophet and revelation that doesn't need to be added that changes fundamental doctrines. You're, you're, you're outside of the body of Christ at that point. You're believing in things that are heretical. You're believing in things that are false. I mean, like again, I'm fine with Christians working together, but we have to call out heresy. We cannot just open the the boundaries to include who we want. I wish I could say Mormons are Christian. I wish I could. Well, the way their doctrine seems to be morphing, you might be able to do that soon. I hope so. Maybe. See what I mean by that? Like. Maybe the next prophet will come along and go be like, "You know what?" Cuz they started practicing Lent. I believe on their website they. Good. They dissuaded Mormons from practicing Lent. This last time I saw some people. So, I don't know. I mean, they don't believe in biblical inerrancy, and they don't believe that their prophets are infallible. Mhm. And they're moving away from doctrines they once taught. Listen, so maybe they'll just get there eventually. Believe in the Trinity, reject the Book of Mormon, and. Maybe after this debate with God Logic, maybe we'll see a swath of uh Mormons accepting the doctrine. I mean, I'd love to see Mormons are Christians. When they start believing correct doctrine, I will. And have a baptism that's valid. That's the reason we Catholics can't accept them as Christian. Cuz what they mean by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are completely different. That's an argument I use to show that we're all Christian. Because I go to the Protestants and they're like, "The Catholics aren't Christian." Like, why? They believe in all the essential doctrines you believe in. They profess Jesus is Lord. They believe in the Trinity. And they go, "Okay." I go to the Catholics and the Orthodox. "Why aren't Protestants Christian?" Uh, we don't say that. Catholics don't say that. Well, you're right. You're right. The church is still. But someone like the, the, you know, the Ortho Bros or the, you know, the trolls online will say that. And I go, "Here's how I convince the trolls." The, the, I get most Christians agree, but I'm talking about just the trolls here. Does baptism save? Does the Orthodox or the Catholic Church rebaptize Protestants? The Orthodox sometimes do. We don't. Yeah, the Catholics do not. Mo-. The Ortho-. I believe the official teaching of the Orthodox Church is "No, you don't need. They don't need to be re- rebaptized. Sometimes they do just out of like. It depends on which Orthodox we're talking about. Yeah, I mean, for us, it's like if you're bap-, if you are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and the person who did it intends to do what the church does when she baptizes, you're validly baptized. And to rebaptize would be like a wrong thing to do, you know, in a way.

So, I mean, if baptism saves, and I, I think it does, uh, okay, then Protestants are saved. So, we're, we're all one family. The problem is like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, they're not baptizing properly either. They're not believing core doctrines. I mean, I just have to get it on record that I think there's more to it than that. Like, as a Catholic, we'd want, we would think that you could lose your salvation. I, I've, I've landed there. Uh, I think I think that's, that's that seems to be what the Church Fathers taught. And, and the end of the day, I'm going to go with the Church fathers. If, if I, unless I'm thoroughly convinced. Yeah, like if there's a stalemate, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so, so I think that's that. What I mean by stalemate is you've got the Protestant saying this, the Catholic saying this, and we're like, all right, we both know what the scripture teaches. What does it mean? That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm not nailed to that. I mean, I'm not going to debate once saved, always saved. I hope that's true. I really do. So, I mean, like cuz I want people to be saved, but I mean, like I think that's what the traditional teaching is, is that you can't lose. You can reject the gift of God, unfortunately. And I think God wants that freedom there for a reason. All right, brother. Well, peace. Cheers to the Mormons. To the Mormons. The Mormon-noons, as we say. The Mormon what? Oh. The Mormon-noons? Well, we would. There's a. Sometimes we call the Muslims the Mormon-noons. I didn't hear that. So, we've been calling them the Mormon-noons. Good. Thanks for being on the show. Where can people find your stuff? We'll link to your channel below and everything. Is that's the main place? The main place is the YouTube channel, Inspiring Philosophy, but I'm under that name on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. So, if you want to see Mark dressed up as a Muslim, then go to his TikTok and Instagram now. Yeah. God bless. Thanks, brother. Thank you. Thank you very much. I cannot believe you made it all the way to the end of this interview. The fact that you did shows me that you might enjoy a lot of the stuff that we do here at Pints With The Quoir. And so, please click subscribe, click the bell button. We really appreciate it.