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A letter about this too. I'm, I'm now struggling to put it in order. I may not be coming across as very precise about this, but let me try to make sense of what I'm saying.
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How he would stake out a scene would obviously depend on the scene. I mean, but you can be sure of one thing: when he comes into an area, he's going to come in like any guy returning to the scene of any crime, obviously very, very carefully. This guy's very wary. He's going to be looking for anything out of shape. So, I mean, I would, if I was, if I was [Music] undertaking surveillance of this kind of scene, it found you found the body, you've just done everything possible to make sure no word about it got out. That would be an undertaking in and of itself. And I realized that this runs contrary to the basic nature of every detective out there. I mean, the first thing we'll do is just rush in there and cordon off the area, do hands-on searches, and pick up threads and everything else. I think there comes a time in an investigation like this one where you've got to take some chances, and this would be one of them. And I would like, I think I told him, I sent a team in to surreptitiously look at the scene, photograph it, making sure that they weren't seen from a roadway or anything, and then coming in under cover of darkness and remove the body as carefully as possible, if it wasn't seen from the roadway, you know, so you would preserve any evidence there. And then just because by it, if like a lot of these victims were off the road, I don't know how far they're they're carried off the road. And if they again, if they couldn't be seen by the road, if somebody would stop their car either right at the scene or maybe a half a mile away and walk in, by the time he reaches that point where the body should be and it's not there, and he says, "Oh, you know, he should already be onto him." All right, even if he, I mean, anybody walking in the area has obviously got to be approached by somebody in the surveillance team saying, "What are you doing here? You know, we're, you know, we're looking for an escape convict. Show us some identification." Something like that. But, uh, believe me, uh, I tried to be as emphatic as I could with this guy. And guys in similar crimes are going back to the scenes. I mean, uh, well, this man obviously has a hell of a lot of scenes.
Would you then perceive that more most recent finds? Of course, we don't always know the most recent find is that in fact chronologically correct with his activities because, you know, find number 35 actually may have occurred back between homicide 13 and 15, but we just don't know. Because, yeah, I think, uh, in my opinion, the fresher the find, the more likely he'll be back. I mean, I don't think he's going back to see skeletal remains, although I'm not, you know, you can't be, I wouldn't say for certain you wouldn't be. But you asked how long it would be, and I think again, I'd have to look at the list of dates to get an idea of the pattern in which he was just depositing the bodies at these various sites. But I wouldn't be discouraged if I were to sit on a site for, you know, several weeks and nothing happened. A week, two weeks, three weeks. Just because it doesn't show up doesn't mean you won't. I mean, obviously, they're going to be limits and surveillance. See, some of the bodies are found up in the mountains on Highway 410 up by Auburn. Yeah.
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It's a small town just before you go up into the mountains. And, uh, it's interesting that you go up there. But I don't know, some of the bodies are fairly close to the roadway, but I'm not sure they were seen. It could be seen from the roadway, skeletons, but in a remote location like that, a surveillance becomes a real challenge because there aren't that many people to blend in with or human type or structures to be hidden by. Nevertheless, I think it can be done.
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Because I think that there are times, probably, when the compulsion to return, I mean, to the scene of the crime. And I know that sounds like a cliché. We're not talking about the scene of the crime anymore. We're talking about a thought. We don't know where the crime occurred. It may have occurred. As, in all likelihood, it didn't occur where the bodies were dumped, but he's returning to see the bodies. And I imagine whatever drives him to do that, whether it's curiosity or desire to make sure he didn't leave any evidence there, or just some kind of thrill, is probably strong enough to cause him to. While he's cautious, he's not going to be obsessively so. You mean, he's going to probably overlook, you know, a hunter, a car parked along the side of the road, or a couple of people on dirt bikes, maybe, uh, you know. But he's going to be alert as he can be, considering what he wants to do.
Would you have any feelings about how long he would stay? I don't know. I don't. I really don't. It would really depend on what he was up to. It could, I mean, I really haven't. All I can say, given my sense of this situation, is it would go back, whether it be for five minutes or an hour. It doesn't appear that he's going back and, for instance, dismembering the victim. They'll appear to be in one piece, or at least they were until the animals got to them.
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Are you following the German culture? Is there a likelihood that he takes out your basketball? With so many victims, and perhaps the earlier victims when he began, he could perceive how many more they were going to be? Maybe didn't know how long this this need was going to be being here, this drive, until it was finally fulfilled, satisfied, or whatever? Is it likely in the earlier victims, they would have been treated differently than in the later victims? In other words, the earlier ones were maybe more personal to him, and later on, for more just numerical? In other words, or maybe the first one when you talk about building yourself up till you're ready to just say that certainly the, I can imagine the first victim, the first time he actually acted out successfully. Remember, there may be some victims of the persons that he approached and either tried to pick up or picked up and they got away or something until he got whatever down, uh, whatever MO he was developing that he got down pat. Remember, this guy just didn't start from, you know, from a running start. He started somewhere. His first murder victim was not the first woman found in that river, or at least if she was, she wasn't the first one he tried. And then, I mean, I feel really super dramatic about that. There's no question he didn't just start. His first murder victim was not thrown in that river, in my opinion. And he'd probably been building up to it for some time. And if you look at the number of unsolved homicides of young women in the Pacific Northwest prior to that time, they're all messed up. So if you take your pick, you know, which one might or might not be a precursor to the series that they call the Green River series. Officially, it didn't begin with the river, and it didn't end, in all likelihood, in December of '83. And there are probably a lot in between. Nobody knows about. Nobody's list, but he certainly the first one. If, for instance, that the young woman found, the first victim, I believe, not in the rivers, let's assume from when she's the first one was a young woman who lived in the Tacoma area, which is south of Seattle. Actually, she wasn't from Tacoma. I think she was some of the Puyallup, Tacoma. She just lived out of town, believed to be a prostitute. Think she was 16. She was believed to be involved in prostitution, which says perhaps she had traveled up to the Pacific Highway South area, which would be about, you know, [Music] a 30, 40-mile drive or hitchhike or whatever. I believe she didn't have a car. I don't know for sure. But there's also the possibility that she was. And I think you'd have to ask people up there. I think it'd be important to know where, where did this young woman hang out? She was the first of that of the official string of victims. And it always struck me as being rather significant that she was from Pierce County because my pet theory, and it's it's only that, is that the guy, whoever he is, lives south of King County, whether it's, uh, Pierce County or Thurston County.
But what criteria do you have for coming in? No way. The just the way the bodies start showing up. Uh, and it's just a, it's just a sense. I can't even explain it, but it may not make sense to you or may not satisfy you. The map. Just look at the map. I looked at the map where the bodies were found and when they disappeared, and I kept saying, you know, they're drifting south, southwest, but they're all staying in King County. I mean, I mean, it's like he's, uh, at least they were for a long time until they found the ones in Portland. But initially, and those went way south, talking about going south, uh, but nobody went north. I mean, all the bodies drifted south under a block or a mile or two miles, or they went southwest up into the mountains. It would be southwest of it. And yet it seemed like for a time being careful to leave them in King County. But you notice those that were later found in Portland, you know, as I say, way south. But no, but none, at least not on the list, have been found in Pierce County, which is the county just south of King County. The commerce. None that nobody will admit to. There are a couple, I understand, who fit the profile, but the, the authorities in Pierce County, it's my understanding, don't want them on the list.
I realize there are other things to do today. What would your thumbnail sketch profile be of this guy? Have you already been asked that? No, I haven't thought of it. So, I, I have, it's been so long since I thought of it, and I, I have thought about it. Basically, we're talking about a man who has some social skills, who is comfortable amongst other people. He's obviously fairly intelligent, who's been able to systematically target, and maybe victims of opportunity, but he's out looking. He's got this urge within him, and he's able to approach them, remove them, do whatever we're not sure what that is because of the conditions of the bodies, but obviously totally possess them, be there when their last breath is spit out, um, dust them, and all this without being identified. Yeah. Well, he's, uh, and again, he's given us a great deal of thought, both before and during and after [Music] that period of time of July '82 to December of '83. I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to say how old I thought he was or whatever, but he obviously has a great deal of time on his hands because as intense as this guy was during that period, okay, I don't know who knows what he's doing now, but during that period, he hadn't have a lot of time on his hands. Because, believe me, is the frequency with which he was seeking and finding victims, it meant he was spending a lot more time looking for them. And now we know he was driving back and forth to Portland too. And as I vaguely recall, I, I plotted this out. The victims disappeared on every day of the week, virtually. I think I think there was a slight preference for one couple days, but I can't remember. They appeared, they disappeared daytime and nighttime. So the guy had a lot of time on his hands. Uh, I mean, so was he unemployed? Part-time employment? Because the conditions of bodies, it's hard to say.
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What if he took them home? And if he has a lot of time, he says, I mean, does he live alone? Is this another good question? Does he have a family? But somebody who's taking that much time is probably fairly unattached, not necessarily without a girlfriend or anything, but I doubt that he had a family. As much time and traveling as he was doing, uh, imagine that it would be very difficult for someone tied down with any day-to-day responsibilities during that period to handle all that activity.
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But you know, I couldn't. I don't know if he likes country western music or [Music] his mother was a prostitute or if he's 25 years old or any of these the more precise stuff that would be helpful. If you didn't know it, I mean, all I'm dealing with, though, remember, the only thing that I've seen are newspaper clippings and the maps that show where the bodies were found and a few lists of the lists that show when and where they disappeared from them, where they were found. Just really, really sketchy stuff. But probably it's an advantage because I think sometimes, I mean, I know my own life, when I have lots and lots of stuff that I have to digest, I tend to be more overwhelmed with it. And I can imagine that the guys who are in the investigation, the task force, look at the, the, the volume amount of information they have and the files and the computer printouts and they go, "Who can make sense of this? It must be overwhelming." But probably it would, that's why someone in your position, who doesn't have to deal with the day-to-day stuff that befuddles even a good investigator, can give them insights and say, "Hey, have you thought of this? How about putting this and this together?" Right. But we try to have that as our role, of course. We want to make sure we're best responsible leading them in the right direction because, as you mentioned earlier, you make them straight and certainly hurt them wanting to help.
Twenty more minutes. Twenty more minutes. And, uh, you know what you missed? No, no, no. I'm not just going to do anything. I've got no problem there. No, I'm just saying I need to get back and get my files together to see my experience this afternoon. Sure. We've, uh, we're down here for the week. But understanding that you've got, you've got several appointments. Tomorrow's everything? Oh, all day tomorrow. Yeah. So, yeah. Your attorney is coming in today or anyone else? We tell you, I want to take time away from other important people. When you're, no, I can't. I don't. Yeah, right. [Music] I've got more than enough to, you know, unfortunately, to think about.
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What are you? Well, interested you. American? Yeah.
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Is this, is this public information or something you don't want us to know? Or I don't know. Yes. Well, it's public information, surely. We sat here with a tape recorder, just like you had, and what they said, and I was saying, and they were saying, "Well, let's talk about, you know, some of these crimes they suspected you." And I said, "Well, I, you know, I can't really talk about them." "Well, how do you want to do it?" I said, "Well, let's figure out some way we can talk about it." And we sat here and negotiated them. How we're going to do this. And it was, it wasn't, it wasn't any deception involved at all. It was very deliberate. And they said, "Well, how about if we do it this way?" Then I said, "Well, I'm going to continue to maintain my innocence, but we can do it like what, based upon what I've read, I would speculate that this was would be what might have happened." Okay. Yeah. And it wasn't, I'm going to talk in the third person. It was, I'm going to speculate about whatever, what I've read, and do the same thing the police would do, you know, if they were trying to figure out what happened. Basic investigative strategy. Right. Right. And so that's basically what happened. They would say, "Okay, what do you think? What do you think happened at Lake Sammamish?" I said, "Well, first of all, I don't know what happened." And then we go into this line. They said, "Well, we don't like that because we, we read something, and that doesn't really fit with the police." And I said, "Well, I could do it." "Okay, we'll do it this way." "Okay." And I swear, if you actually sat down and listened to their tapes, you would hear, you would hear a lot of this nonsense. Okay. And what I have, I've got to tell you, and I want you to be clear.
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That was not a nice thing to do. First of all, uh, money makes people do things which, which are sometimes not right. And, and I think part of the problem with that is was the money. And you put your finger on it. Making money, especially off of this kind of things, is really wrong. And, and I can never do it again because it just, when you get in this kind of thing for profit, just too many bad things happen. And it should, because it shouldn't, you shouldn't be doing it. And it was wrong for us to sit here and coldly do what we did because there are a lot of people out there who read this kind of stuff and it just didn't work and felt bad all the way along. And I look back on it as a learning experience, but I would just rather not say anything anymore and engage in that kind of cruel kind of speculation. And it was just a game, and it was wrong.
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Well, we did correctly, I guess, anticipate the, the baser [Music] desires of people who oftentimes buy these books, who want to be titillated, or who want to have their prurient interests indulged. There are people who read books for genuine reasons, too. And unfortunately, I think we're off, or nothing. We've misled if that's what they're looking for, because whoever has read any of these books does not know anything about me or or what really happened. And I don't say that with any sense of, of being smug or anything. That's just the way you want a huge individual. How many people really know other people as well as you know yourself? There are other people that read books who contend that they've known you prior to any alleged criminal involvement. Anything the other day? No. Test funding. What are your thoughts on that? But they really have put that to to the extent that I think it works. Yeah. Well, they had an opportunity to, and they certainly have genuine access. Uh, for example, uh, there's access to this. No, no, it's always cold. You don't have to worry about that. No. Access to me was really very superficial. She's a, you know, in her own way, under certain conditions, very nice person. I have no animosity toward her, but she, there's no question she grossly overplayed what was a passing acquaintance. And all we did was have our shifts at a, uh, calling crisis. Oh, I remember. No, I remember very clearly. But she had no, absolutely no basis to me to write a book the way that I understand she did or claim that, you know, that in her own way she knew me. She was, it would be like a viewer to have a co-worker, and you would work beside them for a couple hours a day for, uh, six months, and then they would go away, and then they would write a book all about you. That's what would, that's what happened. That person wouldn't know you anymore. My former fiancée, girlfriend, friend, and what have you. And she, of course, had a far, far better opportunity to get to know me. And I mean, I would have. Did you read that? No, I didn't.
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Because you see, even though, bless her heart, she had an opportunity to know me. We knew each other for several years. And if anybody knew me during that period, if anybody knew me, okay, it was a lovely person that she is and was. We were only just, you know, real, we're about friends. I mean, we never lived together. We only saw each other a few times over many, many years. You know, saw me day in and day out and lived with me. They did that for years. Right. Industry information usually is referred to quite frequently in the writings of your life as a person whom you cared about. Things just didn't work out for one reason or the other. Truly, I don't know. Having opportunity.
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And that they've also, there are a lot of psychological theories about Ted Bundy, which are just a bunch of [ __ ] you know. And I, it doesn't bother me. But people who read them and believe them are going to be misled if they think, for example, that and I somehow broke up and this was such a traumatic episode in my life that I just went off the deep end. Well, that's simply not true. That's simply totally completely not true. And I don't care if anybody believes me or not. I mean, I know in my heart, and I'm telling you that, you know, not that it's important necessarily in retrospect, but Lumi now, whether or not she, when she sat down to write her memoirs, she put in there the way it really was. Because you see, by the time she wrote the book, the Ted Bundy she was confronted with, in at least in the public consciousness, was something different. So I think a lot of people, former friends, and even relatives are a little bit leery that I really know him. And if, and maybe their perceptions of me will change. You know, you've seen this. Well, yeah, I saw that in him. I could tell when he was five years old, you know, uh, because people don't want to feel like they've been fooled, or people don't want to feel like they knew that, like they've known someone, and yet they didn't know it. And so they'll figure out all sorts of things to say. Yeah, yeah. Well, I really, I could tell that he was capable of that because he wouldn't, he didn't open the door for anybody.
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I think if somebody put a new book, I heard this, I used to jump out from behind bushes. Okay. Yeah. And scared my insurance. [Music] And I also used to walk on railroad tracks and see how long I could walk on the rails without falling off. I mean, come on, give me a break. Uh, jumping out from behind bushes was never my thing, you know. You know, when it came to, it was just a playful, childish thing that I didn't like. When I was in the shower, I sometimes throw a cup of cold water. [Music] To get her out of the shower. So there's a lot of myths and about the misunderstanding about, I guess everything. And put itself, itself, unfortunately, though, I think it creates, uh, the problem. Misconceptions, uh, I think go deeper. And maybe I think that I'm sure that there are people in law, law enforcement, or psychologists, or trying to become more knowledgeable about this kind of [Music] thing, who read these and take them as fact. I think really the only approach to be taken is your approach, in a systematized way, gather the evidence without any preconceptions and without, without all the theories that are proposed in the media or books. Of course, you haven't read our book yet. Well, you know, it's gotta be, it can't be too much difference. Be familiar with all the pictures of this part. Yeah, I've seen you propose that they are saying that represents. And I'm sure you know, others have, you know, did that person exist in that moment? We've, you know, perceived that quite frequently. If someone is out targeting victims, I mean, maybe representative, you know, and there's truth to that because we've seen it. Someone, a number of people, apparently a situation in which, you know, you've been suspected. Think that there's a best friend. Is there? Is that person actually? Does that make sense to you at all? Is there, was there a dominant person in your life that they are basically prescribing as having represented these victims? Let me approach that question. I'm not trying to thank you. No, no, no, no. I hear you. No, let me approach this question this way. Um, to begin with, I mean, I've never seen Liverpool again, so I don't know if they're saying that it's one of them or somebody. Whoever, again, that's pop psychology. I think. Yeah, you're trying. People are fishing around. They want a hook. They want a smoking gun. They want cause and effect. And it's not going to be there. It's not going to be there. I think all you have to do is go back to the early late '60s, early '70s, and if you could recreate somehow styles of times, you would, I wouldn't be surprised if you found out that that young, between the ages of 16 and 26, uh, 99 out of 100 had long hair with a part down the middle. Something 12-year-olds did it. Yeah, that was the prevalent style of the time. So, I, I don't think that that is indeed indicative of anything in particular. And another talking about photographs, another one of the myths that I always, I'm just appalled by. Away. It doesn't bother me because I'm appalled.
Well, I guess maybe so desperate to find something that makes sense to them, but they always have. Many of the articles in the books include a series of photographs of me, a half a dozen photographs, many faces of Ted Bundy, the great disguise artist. And they have all these photographs, and they're all different. They do all the different. I agree, but they were taken over a 10-year span of time. They have my graduation photograph in '65. They have my arrest photograph in '75. They're all taking a different look at you. Any either one of you, if you were to grow a beard, innocently grow a beard, and over the course of just a couple months, photographs on when you were in different dress and different moods, different times of day, different expressions, you're going to look very, very different. And you're not trying to do it. But this is the myth they created. And I was a master of disguise. In fact, this is one of them. Sometimes you kid around the back, and one of the guys got to call me the master of disguise. [Music] I guess, right? But nobody's picked up on that one.
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Because people believe that when someone, if somebody sneaks around or goes around doing this thing, they just assume that they disguise themselves, you know, in really in some way. What they don't understand is that you don't have, no one has to disguise themselves, really, because people's minds. I wouldn't, you know, what I think about eyewitness identification? Absolutely. It is the worst form of evidence in court. It is also the worst form of information that, in my opinion, that a police officer can get because it can be so misleading. And I've seen it happen over the years. But I know that I, some, I could walk up to somebody from under ordinary circumstances, and they won't remember me a day or five days, a month later. I mean, under ordinary circumstances. I also know that when I escaped in Aspen, I was seen. And I never left that area. I mean, I, I escaped in Aspen. If I went up in the mountains, and, and I'm not, I wasn't equipped mentally or physically to handle, you know, being up at 10,000 feet, even in the summertime, not knowing how to live off the land. I kind of got it kind of warmed me down. Nevertheless, I was, I was just outside Aspen in the mountains, and I was being seen at truck stops in Wyoming, in Seattle, and San Francisco, and Australia. Okay. And if I'd been in Australia, they would swear, "Well, see, that eyewitness saw him." Right. I've seen this happen over and over again. So I'm saying, I know that I've been, and I've seen people, you know, who just never, ever remember seeing me. And I didn't have to hide, and I didn't have to disguise myself. I just had to just be unobtrusive.
And yet, when you were arrested, you weren't recognized by police officers, even talking about here in Florida? Yes. Oh, sure. Yeah. No, I wouldn't. I had to tell them I was in their custody for two or three days. And I was saying, and I wasn't on the 10 Most Wanted list at the time. And I had to tell them. I didn't believe who.
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Continuous survival. My opinion is, I'll be quite frank with you, that is, I'm not being trying to be [Music] negative or what it would do for culture, intelligence, or anything, but I don't think you all catch anybody, really. I think there are exceptions, okay? But I think generally guys in their intents themselves. Do you think sometimes they want to be funny? They don't want to give up? Does that mean the difference? I never wanted to get caught. I'll tell you that. No doubt in my mind. I mean, that's a pop theory. No one was pop psychological theory, but I didn't want to get caught. I was never worried about FBI posters because I might, again, my knowledge of, of how the human mind told me that, you know, unless I just stood there in the post office next to it, you know, I just, I just, you know, I never feared being identified based upon a photograph because I know that photographs versus reality distort. And if you just act normal, people are not going to say. If you act weird, then they're going to say, "What's wrong with him? I need to stand out." But being on the run, I wasn't worried about it. That's Ted Bundy, though. Hardcore Ted Bundy. Out here that I wanted posters. In other words, other individuals just do see them, will act differently. They will, you know. Well, you have to take. I mean, I would certainly, if someone, a fugitive such as I was, I mean, I was aware of, like, believe me, I wasn't oblivious to my status and the fact that I had to be concerned.
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But if, if you were guilty, discharged, we would consider you an organized single person. Same as if I were doing those things, based upon my abilities and intelligence and knowledge and whatnot, I would be doing things in an organized way. I wouldn't be real concerned about the posters either, because I feel the same way about people like you. However, you know, Joe Blow, the disorganized guy, he's been panicked. He's the guy that's going to, he thinks that everyone's eyes are on him. A guy's going to grow a beard, dye his hair, things like that. So, I mean, I think statistically, I, you know, I'm not trying to judge by the way we do things, but obviously, I think you can see statistically that it does help in many situations. Well, yeah, it's, it's something has to. You can't avoid your participation. You can't avoid doing it. You can't ignore doing it because, you know, it would seem to be negligent in your duties if you didn't put these posters out, because that's what's expected of people who are looking for fugitives. But realistically, there are people who are going to see those, who think that that everybody goes around looking for people in FBI posters, whereas this [Music] and it's a stressor to a lot of people. Picture and everybody else that really would never recognize him. He knows that's him. Therefore, he assumes they see him. You're right. That's exactly what happens. And if you fall into that trap, you create your own stress. And, and the more paranoid you become, the more likely it is you get caught because you start acting differently. But if you realize that that person on that picture is not me, okay, you're just interested. That's not me. That guy, my name's this, and I'm acting. Okay, okay. And people are only going to think that I'm the person on that poster if I start acting in ways that make them think that I should be on that poster, you know?
Well, fewer [Music] this further with you. Sometimes when this extra stress gets out of your life, and all these problems, so that fair statement. The personal property found beside the road. I said, "Well, did you make a habit of when you found a victim, going up and down the roadways in on various access roads and highways to and from where the victim was found?" And their answer to me was, "They didn't. They just happened to find this inadvertently." Now, I don't know if there's anything straight with me or not, but my response was, "Well, what would you do if you, if you just dumped the body of a person somewhere and you had a car full of stuff? Will you start throwing out the windows?" Okay. I mean, think about it. And maybe the reason that you found it there is because he was just driving down the highway. And if you want, I said, "In the future, when next time you find a body, for several miles on either then to take all the major routes out of there and just scour the roadsides." I don't know. It's a standard procedure, but that would be, that was my suggestion because my feeling was that all likelihood he just threw it out the window. And that would give him an idea where he was going, you know, the general idea of the route he chose.
Do you think when this guy is with the victims, he's, how does he regard them? I mean, does he think of them as an identity? Does he de-personalize them? Do you think he's picking hookers because he knows they're usually fairly verbal type of folks and he wants to hear something come out of their mouths, whether it be a scream or a threat or a cry or whatever? Do you think that there's any bearing in selection, or do you think it's because they're easy and they're there? Or do you think, as most people do with this investigation, somewhere prostitution played a dark shadow in his life, whether it be with a relative or a bad experience he's had? You know, in the beginning, there was the consideration that it was a, there was a biblical connotation here, you know, reading the world of prostitutes and maybe the first ones going into the river for baptismal purposes or cleansing them over there. You know, I hear you. Some problems with that, but I can't understand it. Okay. Okay. I, again, I don't know. And I don't mean, I'm not, I say this, I don't know what's going through that guy's mind exactly. And the only way anybody's going to know is to ask him. And I'm not trying to frustrate you on this. These are very good questions. And, and these are the kinds of things that have to go through anyone's mind who's looking at the case and trying to solve it. But the question as to what he does with a victim, I mean, I, I haven't seen, and don't need to see, for that matter, the autopsy reports or, you know, the thing about the crime scene, I mean, what the crime scenes look like, or the status of any evidence they found. So I don't know how long it would be important to me to know how long they were alive, if they can tell. And they all, they have skeletal remains, so you really don't know. But it would be critical. I think there are a couple of the early victims, they might be able to do something. One of the contrary to the information in the public domain, one of the victims was not in the water, as you know, one of the four. And that's significant. I think that's terribly significant.
How do you perceive that significance? I mean, just your gut feeling. Well, that feeling was that, uh, at the same time he was pulling her, her down the hillside toward the river, the cops were scouring an area just a short distance away where they just found the body that same day. And I think all of a sudden he snapped to what was happening, or somebody surprised him, and he, when he took off like hell, because he just left her there. And that's, that was there. He came that close. That was, that was. And I'll bet you, I don't, I, I'd have to get out of my, I have one of these things, police lists that show when people disappear, but I'll bet you he went home and he said, "Jesus Christ, I was that close." And his heart was probably going a thousand beats a minute. And he may have taken stock in himself. And you noticed at that point, he went from the river somewhere. I think if it was any chance, I mean, too many years have passed, but it could have been a car just driving along the road, or it could have been the flashlights of investigators going on the crime scene. It could have been a number of things. But it looks to me like panic and surprise. Yeah. And he learned. And you learned. This guy is a learner. Some guys aren't learners. Some guys are just so disorganized, they're not learners. They're just going to bumble until they get caught. Okay. This guy's a learner, or was a learner.
Do you perceive us until we organized it? No, no. It's totally organized. Yeah. I mean, that, it's a useful, it's a useful model that you have there, but it's [Music] you know, subject to, you know, some modifications. Or, in my opinion, that you can have a hybrid. I mean, that you don't have a totally disorganized or fully organized. You have guys who are more or less organized and more or less disorganized, who might progress from organizing an organized mode to a disorganized or vice versa, or. Okay. Right. I hear you. Yeah. Although he may have, to an extent, although he would, we would expect him to be more organized than disorganized, simply because it wasn't an attack. I mean, basically, he's confronting these people and engaging in conversation, basically winning them into his confidence, which does something about his social skills, apparently. Okay. Even though they're not that prostitute's not that difficult person to get into your car, nonetheless, he always has confidence himself to speak to these young ladies and to spend a little time with them while they're still alive. He's got a vehicle, and he's leaving the premises, but he's adjusting. And that's the important thing, which means he's intellectualizing. He's not basically acting totally out of instinct. He's thinking. He's probably following the media, and he's done a lot of things we would expect him to do. So I would think that he tends to fall on the board. We're going to certainly. No questions. More becoming more organized. And to me, the ultimate organization is to know how to quit. And no one equates right. And we don't know how many of those people have ever reached that point. We just don't know. Or know how to control that urge to the point where he could still be [Music] this guy could still be just indulging his his passions just a couple times a year. And, you know, prostitutes are still very mobile. They still disappear. Um, I imagine that most of the hookers in the streets in the Puget Sound area now weren't on the streets several years ago. He could still be doing it, but you just don't know. You just don't know. Uh, if he's still alive or where he is yet. I think that, for sanity's sake, the investigators have to assume that they're going to solve the case and he's out there somewhere, that he isn't buried six feet under somewhere, in which case everybody has got to throw up their hands and say, "Why me?" Um,
I'm sure don't know touched on this. If he would be as direct with you as I'm going to begin, you know, when you come into these interviews like this, and someone is kind enough to give us your time like you are, and I realize you've got a lot of other pressing matters, obviously, but there was obviously another other homicides up there somewhere years prior, you know, which, you know, you've been quote suspected of. Do you perceive this guy as following the role of someone else, or do you think that this is just totally an adjustment because of what's coming up out of the water? You know, I'm getting that same part of the country, very similar to homicides. You know, I know you've had to think about that because, I mean, do you think he's actually sitting on, reading about other crime series and then trying to pattern himself? Or otherwise, I believe his needs or his drives are certainly from within. I mean, that's, he doesn't have to get out of anybody, right? But the technique, the, uh, we use the word MO because I don't know that much about all the crime scenes. Strong. Do you think that that's had anything to do with it?
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Well, I mean, I'm sure you've got two major ones in the country in the last 10 years. They're both up there now. In truth, we had the one down and one ongoing in Los Angeles right now where 11 or 12 prostitutes have been killed, possibly by the same person. One in Oakland, California, where there are eight or nine who've been murdered, some maybe I feel strongly by the same person. We had a situation that's the media term, the Night Stalker investigation, down in Los Angeles, and I worked on for a couple weeks out there. We've had other ones, but not with the dumping of the bodies, per se, not the, the approach of the victims. You know, the nice doctor would go into houses at night, people were asleep. These other, these other ones I mentioned to you in Oakland and Los Angeles are basically block hookers who are being propositioned, and they've never been seen again. Whereas up in the Northwest, now you've got two up there now, two series that's what we're calling very similar. I mean, in the earlier case, we have no reason to believe that the women at all had anything to do with prostitution. And, you know, the obvious physical resemblances, media played up physical attractiveness, but nonetheless, still that part of the country, that type of apparently very organized, a very organized individual.
I just want to give, I'm sure you're allowed to thought because you lived up that way, plus you've, uh, certainly had contact with investigators about them. There's one more that you didn't mention, the budding series that I see in evidence down the tap area. I don't know if you've been allergic to that. Are these the ones where the girls were being done to cemetery, cemeteries? Yet, half a dozen of them. We've had some general inquiries, but I don't know that we're actually working on it yet, unless it's happened this last week. I don't know what's going on. But getting back to your, your idea, I think that there are [Music] it's certainly got to plague the law enforcement people up there wondering if there's something about the Pacific Northwest that that encourages that kind of crime. And but it's not just two. There are, if you've looked at the list of unsolved homicides that could be of a serial type, there are dozens of unsolved homicides in the Pacific Northwest over the past 10 years. Unsolved, not even linked to a particular series. Right. And it's clear somebody's doing it. Okay. Somebody's doing it. Okay. And, uh, I said, I said, you don't just have [Music] the Green River Killer up there. You've probably got five to 10 other guys doing their thing up there in one way or another. This is a scary thing. There could be a couple lake and innings up in the the foothills. And and nobody in Northern California. There was no big stink about a a a serial murder pattern down in Northern California. Nobody was aware of any, uh, uh, group of disappearances that was suspiciously related. And yet you had this ongoing thing. But it was like, if the tree falls down in the woods, does it make sound? Kind of thing. Well, if the person disappears and there's no body, is there a murder? Okay. That's the same kind of thing going on. And so sure, you've got these two, but you, the Pacific Northwest has a lot more to. And I do think there's something. I don't know. I mean, I, unlike you, I, I don't have access to all the data to know, you know, where the various serial murders that have serial murder patterns that have been identified have occurred. But I do think the Pacific Northwest has more than its share. Okay. I mean, look at not just Seattle, [Music] Portland, um, but look north of the border. Look at Vancouver. They've had a couple up there over the years. We've got several that we're looking at, and they're right there. They have considered the links there. Really? Yeah.
The date is February 13, 1986. This is Bill Hagmeyer, along with Special Agent, the Jacksonville Division. The interview is being held at the Florida State Prison in Raiford, Florida, and the interviewee is Theodore H. Bundy. And I don't blame him, but that's the way it is. They were nervous as hell. I was talking to the New York Times person yesterday. You know, what can I say to him? You know.
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As an attorney, you know, I don't always agree with what attorneys do or don't do, but as
An attorney, you can appreciate their interest anyway. I mean, that's what they're there for. It doesn't has never bothered me, and I'll say what I want to say, and I know what I should and shouldn't say.
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I don't know if you've read some of the letters that I've written. I've probably written them over 200 pages. You had mentioned.
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He stopped writing to me in September. I don't know why. I wrote it. I wrote him a 20-page letter and posed a number of ideas and looking for some feedback or something, and he never wrote that. Well, you know, he's got more to do than didn't write to me. That's all that's. And I don't, I don't take offense. Yeah, but basically, you feel that you've got an investment of your time and sharing whatever you'd like to see what the results may or may not be. You know, I thought that I might have something to add because, like, I feel, uh, we're talking, let's talk about a computer program. They've developed this massive hair. They developed a computer, some kind of computer program or programs and told me something about what they were thinking of doing. And I don't know what else they've done. But I mean, there are a lot of programs that I can run, okay? And I don't need to spend two million dollars to do it. If I, you know, if I had the data. Now, I can realize, I understand why they can't show me stuff or tell me stuff, and I don't want to know. But just seeing those crime scene photos was something of revelation. You know, because I could see some of the changes that I was going through, at least on a superficial level, to me, a superficial level. Because the person that they're looking for, assuming it's one person, is may still be, and was then, a real living, viable, breathing human being that just went about his life in a way that made sense to him, okay? Uh, he wasn't a monster and isn't a monster. Because again, when you start using those pejorative terms and those of passionate terms, he's a, he's a sick, demented person, okay? Sure. Now, you, but, but remember, there's a lot in him that's in you, of course. And there's nothing in this guy. There's nothing this guy has thought that you haven't thought in one way or another, at one time. And he, he do all right for whatever reason, carry your trust the thoughts a step further. Um, did you get a feeling? You came up, brought up an interesting point. Do you think there could be more than one person responsible for this? Well, I, I just don't have enough information. I haven't seen all the crazy photos.
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Missing something like that? Yes.
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Yeah, that's, that's really a bottom line. People talking about a lot more. The guy didn't get killed in an automobile accident somewhere. Um, though it looks, I mean, for all it looks like one person. Sure. Okay. You're wretching, and I certainly agree with you. The rest of us have the same kind of thoughts and perhaps the feelings that that individual would have. With that in mind, do you think he could have just stopped? I mean, it's been quite some time of these voices, stuff that, and that's feeling through them satisfied or suppressed or whatever? Or do you think that he's been taken out of the population and basically that's why Dwight always no more have occurred? The question might, my response to that.
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Oh, a year and a half ago, when I talked to us, well, it was October of '84. October, November, before I spoke to them here in this room a couple of days. We talked, and then I was exercising over conventional wisdom about, well, as saying more or less based upon what I know and what I've read. No, this guy is, you know, gonna go till he burns himself out. Because listen, in the year and a half he was active, at least a year and a half with the data, the evidence shows he was active from July of '80 to get 90 days, '82 to December '83. He is accredited with at least 45 people just in King County. Now, that is super intense. You can't, I don't think anybody can appreciate the level of intensity that that exhibits. Because I don't think that that's.
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That's way above the the mean average of frequency for, you know, for serial killer. Mine would be my guess. It'd be my guess. And still, he avoided detection. That's an extraordinary achievement. Even though you're dealing with a very vulnerable victim class, which, you know, it's very hard to investigate cases involving the emergence of prostitution to begin with. Got a real high-risk crime for the offender, right? Very low risk, very little risk. Even though he was just so bold as hell. I can't believe his brashness and lucky and going back to the same area with all hell breaking loose and and and all the prostitutes on the streets fully aware of what was going on and continue to get and continue to get victims. But, uh, could he stop, though? I have thought about that. We know so little. And I wondered, is it possible? Would it be possible under those circumstances, as intense and as intuitive as he obviously was, could he stop? And we know so little about the behavior patterns of persons who commit serial market. I mean, on a grand scale. I mean, you don't, it's not like you can go to a, uh, you're a behavioral scientist and you just invite a whole bunch of people into a room and have them fill out questionnaires. I mean, there's just so much it's unknown. But I think it's, it's, I don't think it's inconceivable that that could happen. I don't think it's inconceivable, just as people change behavior drastically and transform and are transformed for whatever reason, whether they live lives with their alcoholics or whatever their personal problem might be. I think we see there are at their instances in life that we all have seen where people had serious problems and just came to grips with them and dealt with them and stopped. Now, most people aren't able to do that. But I agree. I mean, most people just go on until, you know, they're arrested or, you know, they're alcoholics or, you know, they lose their job or they get a divorce or some crisis happens in their lives. But there are people, I think, who are capable for whatever reason of.
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Facing up to, you know, the their, uh, the difficulties they're having in the, the distortions of their, their minds and, uh, reforming themselves. I think this is highly unlikely, you know, but I don't think it's inconceivable. But again, you're dealing, we don't, you don't, you just don't know.
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It would be, it would be extraordinary if, if someday you found out this guy just stopped, you know. But speak in terms of equating it like with alcoholism, which may not be like an escape or whatever for people and difficult for them to overcome it, but occasionally can. And like a serial murder, at least from my own personal perception of the Green River case and some others like it, appears to be a crime of crime behavior activity, almost power, and I would use the word possession, total possession, you know. I mean, that's the way I perceive people who are serial murderers whom we would term organized, so to speak. And you're gonna be familiar with it, how we categorize people. You can't envision what goes on in their mind when they're actually controlling and killing, okay? And whatever else may or may not be involved, whether it be playing on a sexual fantasy or exploration or whatever. But the actual being there at the moment that life is gone, to me, it's almost like a total possession. That that person would be mine. No one else in the world can control that person. There's nothing that person can do anymore for themselves. Totally in my hands, okay? They left this earth in my hands. They had no choice. No one could stop me at that particular time. I can only imagine that it's almost, in a sinister way, a society would look at it, but almost a euphoric feeling. And a person that's so active as this guy has been, if he is through the credit that has been given to him, I can't think of anyone else in our society who has been basically giving credit for that many short periods of time. It must be just a tremendous drive, uh, almost a need for this feeling of possession. I don't think it is so much to just eliminate a life. I mean, there were easier victims for him to find. Prostitutes are certainly high and highly visible. He could have taken children, could have taken elderly people or something like that in another way. But once he was choosing basically a very spirited type of folks, they're outgoing and they're out on the streets constantly dealing with other people. It's a challenge for him. They're going to fight back a little bit, but he just totally controlled him. And I just wonder, to me, I just can't equate it so much with like alcoholism or a habit or something. Can you actually get that out of your system? I mean, is that possible to stop? I mean, that's been one of the real big burning questions for us, you know. We look at ages of course, and activity as a person. Just start to burn out at some point, uh, or what? I don't know what you're, you're here. I think you're, you're right on in your questions. I, I can understand. I've asked an awful lot of questions. I can see where your mind's going, and I can, I see that you're probing and you're trying to understand, and you're dealing, you know, within, um, with some very important kinds of issues and concepts. But don't tell yourself short. You can't understand, okay? You can understand because in your own way, there are things in your own life you experience that kind of intensity and that kind of a power. Maybe you have problems, or anybody has problems they can't control. And I don't mean to demean or diminish the seriousness of what, what happened to say in the Green River case, obviously a very serious, tragic situation. But to that person who's doing it, it makes sense at the time. And who knows what all the emotions and the passions and the mental, uh, images that are rushing through his mind before, during, and after this is, of course, extremely important from on both a behavioral scientist point of view and a law enforcement point of view. But you can't begin to get inside this man's head if you try to use personal experiences as, as a guide to a certain extent. And I guess there's no way to know precisely what he thought or what he did until he tells you. And I think sometimes, yeah, I could see myself trying to figure out what's going through the Green River killer's head to the point where I was just driving myself nuts. Why? Why this and not that? Why prostitutes and not children or old people? Why the river? Why the mountains? You know, now, you know, what a profile? Exactly. And you just don't have the data to make those kinds of decisions. For instance, let me give you an idea. What I was talking to Bob Kevin, they said.
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Do you think this guy would keep the stuff he's taking from the victims? You know, the personal possessions? Apparently, you weren't finding any. That's a way. Maybe, maybe not. But you don't know. You don't have any information really to say for sure one way the other. And if, if you have a hot suspect and he doesn't have anything, that doesn't mean he's not the person. On the other hand, if you have a suspect and you search his apartment, you find lockers full of stuff, well, you gotta, you've got it, right? So it doesn't really, it's important. It's an important thing to keep in mind, but don't torture yourselves over because there's no way to know. You have no information. One interesting thing they did find that they, they said, you know, we found a couple miles away from the site where this victim was found, they found a driver's license. What did, what do you think was happening there? That was they fighting? This is what they told me. I don't know if they're being straight with me now. This was one of the victims named Kimmy was found in the Kent Valley. We found her driver's license over here, you know, side of freeway. What was going on? I said, well, I don't know. But, you know, I seriously doubt they were fighting. I don't think very, very many victims had a chance to fight with the guy. He was very, very efficient. Whatever he was doing. I mean, this is, this is rather really the extraordinary accomplishment, if you want to look at it, of this particular individual that nobody that, that anybody knows of, that that I am aware of, got away from him. And considering the street-wise nature of the people is up against it's quite, uh, it's, I say an accomplishment in quote. That's a good word to use. It is an accomplishment, certainly not, you know, not a positive one, but an accomplishment nonetheless. But you've got a definite public and media sensitivity in that part of the country right now. It has been for several years. So that you've got basically the media linking them sometimes prior to the investigators linking them, uh, justified or not, but it's borne out on the end sometimes that they are. We've had many inquiries from different parts of the country or the media putting homicides together and unjustifiably so. They just didn't know what they were talking about. And other times they'd come in and I talked to investigators and they said, now, there's no way they're related. Three months later, there's no doubt they were relationships. Awareness up there for sure. I, I wouldn't be surprised if, no, thank you, if, uh, publicity about these kinds of crimes has a contagious effect. I'm not just, I'm not saying that there's somewhere to read a house of these kinds of murders that they're gonna go out and try to emulate them necessarily.
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But I think it's part of the entire constellation of it influences, pressures, and stresses, what have you, on a given individual that just come into play that are going to ultimately result in him acting out fantasies that would result in him committing serial murderers. And an intense to live in an area where.
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There are these kinds of activities going on in combination with, let's say, other influences, whether it be, you know, personal problems or abuse or low self-image or, you know, God knows what goes into the final formula on any given individual. It's very complex and perhaps incomprehensibly complex interaction of forces. But maybe it's, it's exposure violence in the media, or maybe it's pornography, or maybe it's just all kinds of things acting together, together with being able to read about something that's really happening.
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This kind of stuff can also attract people to an area. I said, well, it happens here and people don't get caught. Maybe I should go up there and see what's going on. But I think no solution. But I think more, well, years ago, yeah. I mean, if you were, if you were to, let's say, you're a guy who's just got these fantasies about, you know, going out and abducted women, you really have never acted them out, you're not sure what's what's what. So you go down to the local magazine shop and you, you know, what are you gonna indulge your fantasies in? What I mean, if you, I, I said this to you, I said this, you may have read in the transcripts. If you're a fisherman, you go down the magazine store and you pick up a fishing magazine. Or a skier, you're going to read about skiing and look at it on the tube. Well, if, if your thing, at least on a fantasy level or an even in reality, is going out and killing, abducting people, well, perhaps you're gonna indulge that fantasy vicariously by reading about it or seeing film.
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Movies about it or whatever indulges it vicariously. So he goes down, he reads the say, the detective magazine, and he sees, well, there's a whole series of these kinds of crimes going on down in California, hitchhikers in California, or whatever. And it might the light might go on. Oh, she had thought of that before. That'll become a part of the part of the fantasy process. It may or may not. See what I'm saying? That's just one. You think there's a scenario point in that person's development, whether it be age-wise or life experience-wise or whatever, where all that starts clicking together and he sees that this is my life's work, or this is what I, I need to do? Or you perceive that it comes on wants this kind of person, or, you know, just gradually escalates to it? I'd be reluctant to speculate. However, my sense is, and it's not based on a lot of information, right? My sense is, it's it's gradual, you know? I mean, it's not, it doesn't, this is something that happens overnight. What brings a person to the point where he acts out of fantasy? Yes, you know, he's probably, if you figure out that puzzle, you know, where he goes from thinking about it, doing it, why and how that occurs is a puzzle that you find a solution to. That might be all you need to unravel the whole, the whole ball of wax. What brings the person to that point is, is a mystery. What brings a person to the point where they say they change their transform their whole lives and they feel like they're born again, right? When you, and what brings a person to the point they feel like they're seeing life for the first time and they're ready to to start turning themselves around? I mean, it has something to do with the human character where I think we just, whether for good or evil, we're ready to become ready. We become ready, you know, I'm ready to start doing things right. I'm ready to stop drinking and stop fooling around and straighten my life. Or I'm ready to go out and I'm just ready. I don't know why. I'm just ready to go out and kill somebody tonight or try anyway. I may not do it. It may screw up because I have never done it before. It was like anything else. You've got to start somewhere. And so when you start somewhere, it's like if you're a skier, you may have been dreaming about skiing all your life, reading the magazines, thinking about it, watching Warren Miller and films and everything. And the day comes and you say, well, I'm gonna have to try it. Well, you're gonna go the bunny till he'll need to fall down. You're gonna fall down unless you're, unless you're very, very good. And there are some people who get up skiing and go right down the hill. There's some will struggle, some will pick a very high hill the first time, and others will start a small slope, and some will take lessons here. I'm going to take like a second. Okay, on a person like a serial killer, okay, that's fantasized, maybe read, maybe seen movies, dropped, whatever. That kind of person likely to start on the slope? In other words, take a more defenseless victim? Start with a, uh, a representative victim? Whether it be just toying around with a doll or something like that? Or will they go right to the highest month and actually attempt? And if this is a criminal possession, that's what I'm calling. I don't know if you agree with me. That's the way I see some of these serial murders. Are they going to go right to the type of individual that they've been fantasizing about weeks, months, years, or whatever? Yeah, I hear you. Let me see. I think it's useful to explore these kinds of ideas and concepts, but I always have to remind myself that I don't fall into the trap of getting into stereotypes, because each individual is different. I know that sounds like a cliche, but it isn't. And if I start getting an idea that that every person goes about the same way, then I fall into that trap of thinking, well, that I know how that person is thinking. I really don't. I know how I think and how I can put myself into that person's mind if I know enough, if I have enough facts, you know, something to go on, right? Yeah. Has something to go on.
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So.
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With that in mind, then I can try to work out a theory like you just post as to what I mean, is it gonna start with an easy victim and go to something he's looking for? You know, I don't, uh, it's good. I don't.
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We can, um, about all these, and I think it's useful to develop the mental equipment to be able and maybe sharpen your perceptions. And so when you go out in the field and you're confronted with a real life with all the stuff that an investigator comes up against that comes into play, and you can see things that maybe other people won't see, or you, or you won't fall prey to the temptation of trying too hard to overlay some preconceptions over, well, this is what he's like or isn't like, and narrow your view in such a way that you might overlook or you might not see right. You're looking for, you're making him fit your mold. And all due respect, I think that's one of the great dangers of profiling. What if you're off just a little bit? Sure. Okay. That's why we try to profile cases. We try to never do them just by ourselves. We usually try to have at least two or three other people around, one of whom will play the devil's advocate and say, I think you are off for this reason. And when we do finish up, and we certainly could be raw, we're just on a threshold, hopefully, of getting these insights that we want. It's a group decision, in other words. We've got three or four people saying, well, we consider this and that, but based upon probabilities, based upon what experience we've had with, based upon what exposure we've had speaking to folks with common experiences and investigators and research projects, this is what the state of the art is right now. This is what we perceive as debate. But it's an interesting insight. I sit down and try to do one myself. I'm going to be very careful that I don't fall. I try to put myself into the mind, the soul of the perpetrator. But, you know, I try to look at things as he did. Try to, I don't necessarily try to understand them at that particular point. I only want to try to beat him for a while. Write down what I do, what I do next, and then trying to step back and think, oh, you know, if that's true, and why did that happen? And that's, that's the second part of it. So, uh, you're right. You've got to be very careful. Plus that is not saying concrete that, you know, that changes. Absolutely right. I mean, ideally, I guess when you're confronted with this kind of a problem, uh, you would go out there and the people will be most effective would almost go on a work on a gut level, on an intuitive level, where they, they weren't just going through the motions of following what they learned in police school. If they really have a sixth sense about what's happening, uh, what they're looking for, they're able to see beyond the obvious. We really haven't gotten into some of the questions that we would ask on our research project, and I don't know how much time you'll have to spend with us kind of quite a thorough thing here, and then the instrument, which, uh, you know, it's kind of a guarded thing at this particular point, but I'm more than willing to let you take a look at it, just to get your own gut feeling. So you feel comfortable not going over some of the materials, but if we do get into this today, or you know, depending upon what your schedule is and your priorities are, we do have a form, and this is not an advice of rights waiver or in chamber form that we ask people to look at and see if they're comfortable with it. Maybe you want to prove that for a few minutes. If you can't, and they told them that you were here and scheduled to be with me all day, and that really took them off. No, we can't spend all day. No, what we're just saying is that they've given us the opportunity to use this office all day if we want to. So, you know, we'll stop whenever you want to stop. But, you know, there will be people walking back and forth out there. But basically, the colonel says, if you've got time, you'd like to stay all day, you can stay all day. So we're on your schedule. Yeah, it's the timing for us getting together is kind of bad because I've got a lot of things we're involved in, and my attorney's going to be here today, and I'll be busy all day tomorrow with visits and interviews and what have you. And it's, it's not a, an atmosphere that's conducive to a lot to gearing my mind to thinking about the things we're talking about here and really getting into a.
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Kind of discussion that will produce the the confirmation that you're looking for. I mean, I, I think that we've talked about a number of things this morning that are very interesting. You know, obviously, you obviously, you know, you're really into it. And.
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You know, I, I, I'm impressed with your desire to figure stuff out. Having an open mind is the most important thing, you know. Keeping an open mind is the most important thing. You start to close off your mind and just see it one way, that's when you miss out. And I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen too many times where where investigators have closed their mind off and they missed out, you know, serious stuff for whatever reason. And they're no, it's not, it's not, it's just because they're human. And it's not too be derogatory about them, but.
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They're good investigators and bad investigators, you know. And some of them are, or just they're pulling in the paycheck and they're not artists. They're scientists. And it depends on some of them, uh, they don't come upon any cases very often. They're getting over their head. Oh, yeah.
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That's why a lot of them will use us as a central resource because we have an opportunity to see cases around the world, basically. We're getting four or 500 cases a year referred to our stuff, which is out of a lot of cases. We're not necessarily right on the crime scenes picking up bodies and whatnot, but there are very few people in the world that get an opportunity to observe and detail investigations and follow them through that many times. It's so easy. It's a learning process, but it helps. And we become a repository, and then what we take in, we had put back on. But we want to improve that product, and that's kind of why we're here. Sure. There's no one else doing the kind of thorough work that you are. I've seen, I've looked around, and I've seen a lot of flaky stuff, uh, being done in the area of serial murder. So-called experts running around the country having seminars, and it's really pathetic. It's really pathetic. And they come to me all the time, do this, do that, give me an interview. And I see the kind of work they're doing, and they're just, you think they're looking for.