Transcription
Well, joining me now is Dr. Gad Sat. He's a scholar at the Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom at the University of Mississippi and the author of forthcoming book Suicidal Empathy. Gad, great to have you back on Unensive.
Thank you so much for having me, Pierce.
Look, this is obviously, as we've just heard, a very emotive issue. It's a complex issue. It's a multifaceted issue. You know, there's no doubt there is an interesting comparison to be made about sheer volumes, for example, of Muslims in the UK and US. It's about the same number around 4 to 5 million, but the US is six, seven times as big as the UK. So clearly, we have a lot more Muslims in the UK. We have a tiny fraction of America's Jewish population. I think America has 78 million, I think it is. In America, we have about 250,000. So they're right there. Just statistically we have a very different setup in terms of Muslim and Jewish populations of our uh respective countries.
But in terms of this whole debate fueled a lot by people on the conservative right in America that Britain has been invaded by radical Muslims. Megan Kelly used that phrase last week with me uh and and we've lost control to radical Muslims. I just see no evidence that that is remotely true. That's not to say I don't think there have been big issues with the huge influx of uh immigrants to the UK in the last 25 years. That is indisputable. It's gone way too far. We lost control of our general immigration policy. But that doesn't mean we've lost control of the country to radical Muslims in my estimation.
Uh look, if you take any disease, say diabetes, when you're first diagnosed with it, we're not going to amputate your leg tomorrow, but we know that there is a trajectory whereby we can predict that within a certain time period things will go wrong if you don't resolve your insulin issues, right? So it might it is absolutely true, you're right, that today Britain remains a non-Muslim country. But if we continue along the same patterns, will it improve or will it worsen if the current immigration policies remain the same? And let me draw an analogy. There are currently 56 countries that are part of the OIC, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation. Each of those countries once upon a time started with zero Muslims. Then you close your eyes and you open your eyes and in many of those countries you have 0% non-Muslims. So for example, Egypt used to be a largely Coptic country, Coptic Christian. Today it's 10% cops. My own country within my own lifetime used to be majority Christian country. Today it's majority Muslim country. So it's not as though everywhere that Islam goes, they just engage in an orastic killing of everybody. But in one way or another, once Islam enters, the goal is for you to Islamize the society. And it doesn't take a fancy professor to understand those historical patterns.
I mean, it it it's interesting what you say. I would argue back at that that the vast majority of Muslims I know in the UK are very happy to uh be part of a multicultural Britain in which they assimilate quite happily with their neighbors of all types of all creeds and race races and religions and so on. I just don't see this hot bed of radicalism. Now, I would caveat that by saying that most of the terrorism in the UK in this century, for example, has been perpetrated by radical Islamists. That is indisputable. Um, but it but it's been sporadic. And I think that's important to to stress. It's not something that's happening like it was with the IRA, for example, in the 70s and 80s on a regular basis. It's having it's happening sporadically. So there are uh in an influx of some radical Islamists who perpetrate bad things. That's indisputable. Uh but that doesn't mean we're a country under the control of radical Islam.
Yes. So let me I think I might have mentioned this stat last time, but let me mention it again and then I'll draw another analogy to in pathology in pathogen studies. There have been this is a lower estimate. There are other databases that place what I'm about to say at a much higher number. Since 911 alone, there have been nearly 48,000 Islamic terror attacks in nearly 70 countries, right? 48,000. If you take all of the other 10,000 religions combined, it doesn't add up to the number of fingers that I have on my two fingers. So the fact that you and I could fully agree that there are millions of Muslims who don't do this doesn't negate the fact that if you allow Islam to take a foothold in a place we know what the outcome will be.
So now I'm going to draw the analogy that I promised earlier. The shingles virus is something that you and I given that we're roughly the same age is something that we should be concerned about. It lays dormant in you for 20, 30, 40 years and then there is a catalyst that then can trigger the shingles virus and it results in very uncomfortable situation for you even though it laid dormant in you for 40 years. So when Islam is only 1% of the population or two or three, they don't yet have the numbers to be able to do the things that would otherwise worry you. But once they become 20%, 30%, 40%, then we can exactly predict the trae trajectory as we would diabetes. So again, you have to have the imagination to extrapolate into the future and then hopefully inshallah the light will come to you.
Right? But there'll be lots of people who hear you, you know, compare Islam to a disease who will find that incredibly offensive. And there'll be many mo many millions of Muslims in the UK because statistically the absolutely vast majority of Muslims in the UK do not commit uh radical acts of terrorism. So 99% at least are living in peaceful harmony and not engaging in this. And in fact a tiny fraction of British Pakistani Muslim men for example were engaged in the grooming gangs. albeit their behavior was disgusting and reprehensive on the cover up was just as bad. So my point being that you know as I read out earlier to the panel the vast majority of sex attacks in the UK are still perpetrated by white men for example right? So you know statistics can be twisted any way people want but this categorization of Islam as a disease in a country like the UK I just don't sense that.
Of course by the way I don't know if you're doing this willfully or not I'm not categorizing Islam as a disease I'm drawing an analogy the definition of an analogy is to draw exactly a comparative mechanism of how things might proliferate. So I'm not saying Islam.
But you were direct Hang on G. Let's not be disingenuous. You were directly comparing it to the impact of having a disease that spreads.
No, what I'm saying is that there the the the phenomenon, whatever it may be, may lie dormant until there is a tipping point that serves as a catalyst. So if you don't like me comparing it to Islam, if we were to have millions and million millions of Orthodox Jews that come into an area, there will be a number when the likelihood of teaching evolution in the schools where there are tons of Orthodox Jews would reduce because they don't believe in the theory of evolution. So in this case, I'm not arguing that Jews are a disease. I'm drawing an analogy. Let me come back to the point of but most Muslims are lovely. Most men do not commit rape. We can agree on that. And certainly the statistics would be no different than saying most Muslims don't commit uh terrorism. But if you and I have a daughter and that daughter is about to cross uh a dark alley where there are a few men that are loitering, would we tell her, "Sweetie, statistically most men are not going to be rapists. So even though you're wearing that really alluring uh minikrt, don't worry about it because it's only a very small number that will commit rape." Right? We wouldn't say that to them. Or let me give you another analogy. You and I have had young children.
No, no, the analogy I would use. Yeah, but Gad Gad, hang on, hang on, Gad. My response to that would be that, you know, statistically 83% chance that you'll be attacked by a white man, right? So, if you want to get into numbers and probability, yes, I would not want I have a daughter. I would not want my daughter to walk across a park late at night, but actually statistically, she's far more likely to be attacked by a white man. That is just a reality in the UK. That's why that's why well that's that's the statistical reality. So the framing of this debate when people try and say well look they've been invaded and overrun by radical Muslims. They all hate women. Therefore it's become a very dangerous place for women because of radical Muslims. I simply throw back statistics which is 83% of serious crime in the UK remains perpetrated today by white men. Pierce, 96% of Scotland is white. Therefore, obviously, most of the rapes that are committed in Scotland are going to be committed by white men. It's this little thing called per capita adjustment, right? I want to draw another analogy for you because you didn't like the the rape one. When you and I were raising our children and had to look for a babysitter, did we typically go and look for 35-year-old men as babysitters or did we look for a 15-year-old teenage girl? Because we recognize that statistically speaking, 15-year-old girls are much less likely to molest children than 35-year-old boys men. Now that doesn't take away from the fact that it is exactly true that most 35-year-old men will never molest. But life is about navigating statistical regularities. The one who understands those regularities comes out on the other side without being raped. The one who lives in Unicornia will wake up one day while he's being put down on the floor being gang raped. So statistics matter. Most Muslims are perfectly lovely. Islam is not necessarily congruent with Western values. Those two statements are perfectly consistent with each other.
Well, except I would come back to this. Statistically, there are, I think, nearly 5 million Muslims living in the UK, a population of 67 million. And there was an absurd like response last week cuz Megan Kelly after our interview blew up, uh, posted to me on X that the most popular boy's name in the country last year was Muhammad, right? And this was immediately seized on as evidence we've been overrun by radical Muslims. Well, having the name Muhammad does not make you a radical Muslim. one. Secondly, it is very very as everybody knows who's got half a brain, uh, it is very common for Muslim men to include the the name Muhammad in the name of their sons, right? It's a very common thing. It's not as common for white guys like me to choose the same name for all our sons, right? So, Noah was the second most popular, which is a popular Jewish name, for example. Uh people happens to be in vogue. I think it's the most popular name in the US at the moment is Noah. uh it wouldn't be most popular in the UK because of Jews because there are so few Jews. However, it's not surprising to me that Muhammad tops the list of boys names simply because so many Muslim uh families like to call their sons Muhammad. Right? So these statistics get seized on and twisted to create a false narrative that because the most popular boy's name in the country is Muhammad, even though the numbers are pretty low, uh that that means we're being overrun by radical Muslims. I I just find that a ludicrous, ridiculous, uh, you know, journey to go on intellectually because it makes no sense to me. Can I take another shot at you know navigating through statistics?
Okay. If I told you today that there is a millions of guys named Moshe that are moving into Brighton, would that increase or decrease the likelihood of there being a greater preponderance of kosher places? all other things equal, you would argue there'd be an increase because since we have brains that engage in causal reasoning, I would say since Moshe is a prototypical Jewish name and since many Jews wish to adhere to kosher laws, I can undoubtedly unequivocally unassalably say that if there are more Moshees in Brighton, there's more likely to be pressure to have kosher food. But there'll be other Moshees that completely decide to eat a shrimp soup. Right? So I am Jewish. I'm very much steeped in my Jewish heritage. And yet I eat bacon. It's not because I practice a more gentle form of Judaism. It's because I choose to ignore those parts that don't adhere to my daily lives. So most Muslims are lovely because they are innately lovely. They are nice Jews and mean Jews. We're talking about Islam. The is Islam consist of a set of codified doctrines that are consistent with the foundational western values? If the answer to that, Pierce is yes, then we should quickly accelerate Islamic immigration because we're going to be enriched. If the answer is perhaps no, then maybe you need to put on your statistical reasoning hat.
Well, my statistical reasoning hat says, "How much interreligious warfare do we see on the streets of my country?" Elon Musk, you know, I know someone you know well, constantly fuels this sense of there's going to be an imminent civil war because of the Muslim problem. But I see a lot of Hindus over here. I see a lot of Muslims. I see a lot of Christians. I see all sorts of different people of different colors, creeds, religions, and so on. And I don't see warfare everywhere. I don't see civil war erupting everywhere. I don't recognize the kind of depiction of my country which Elon has. And he's a guy who's barely set foot in my country, right, as far as I'm aware in the last few decades. So I don't know what he's basing it on other than this is a narrative that's been fueled and picked up by a lot of people in America. And I I say to Elon, Elon's not even American himself, right? He's an immigrant to the United States. You know there are five million Muslims in the US most of whom live perfectly happily and peacefully amongst the communities they live in. Uh there's no there's no Muslim problem in the US. Uh there's a Muslim radical terrorist extremist problem who of terrorists coming into the country or perpetrating acts of terrorism against Americans around the world. Yes. And that's why there's been fights against al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other terror groups. But to to somehow then say, "Well, then all five million Muslim Americans must be a danger to society would be ridiculous." And I use the same argument to apply to Muslims in the UK. Yeah, we've got nearly 5 million Muslims. Actually, the vast majority are peaceful and assimilate very well into our society and live alongside Christians, Hindus, and the rest of it. um why should I be particularly exercised about the fact that their religion Islam uh has different you know criteria and creed to my Catholicism for example I that's fine I can respect both but I don't respect radical Christians and I don't respect radical Muslims and I don't respect radical Hindus I don't respect radical people full stop they are dangerous it terrorism comes from people who get radicalized I just don't see in the UK that we have a mass problem with radical Muslims who've taken over the country.
I think it's be because the strategic template on which Islam has operated is when in the minority act meek and like a victim. But when in the majority smite at the neck and show no mercy. That's why I drew the earlier analogy with shingles. It takes a tipping point in numbers for some of the things that you're not yet worried about to materialize. Right? Lebanon was perfectly fine until there was an infusion of PLO terrorists and it's and the demographics started shifting and then it didn't go well. That applies to the 56 countries that I mentioned earlier. You also mentioned by the way there there are no problems in the United States. Well, why don't you go tell some of the people who live in Dearbornne whether there are any problems that are brewing in the horizon or go tell the people who live in Minneapolis. Again, it's a question of numbers. And I, if I may, I'd like to flip it to you. you're the host, but if I can play host for a second, what would be the pattern that Pierce Morgan would have to see for him to say, send Gatsad an email and say, "Oops, God, I think you were on to something. Just give me a sense of what the data would look like for you to be concerned."
I I would have to see clear evidence that we were getting overrun by radical Muslims. not Muslims, radical Muslims with radical ideas that were fermented around violence. If I saw genuine evidence that that was becoming more widespread, I would be seriously concerned. I don't see it. You know, I see we were talking earlier about 85 Sharia councils being set up who operate amongst Muslim communities up and down the country, but they have no law under British law and therefore I don't particularly.
Today they don't for right. So my point so my so here's my point G. I don't think that we should turn a blind eye to potential issues. I'm not saying some of the things you've raised historically around the world have not manifested themselves and I think it would be prudent to listen to that. You you're a very wise man, very knowledgeable. I completely respect that. I do think it would be prudent of British governments, for example, to take the potential issues here seriously. But let's not get ahead of ourselves and say we've been overrun by radical Muslims. Let's make sure we protect our values in this country. Make sure that people are genuinely assimilated and make sure if we sense that there is a rising tide of violent radical extremism from any part of our community that we stamp on it very quickly. And that I think would be a prudent way to deal with a problem that is not evident to me yet. But as you say, who can predict the future? Uh, Gad, I'm going to leave it there. Fascinating conversation. I love having you on our censored. Thank you very much. Cheers.