Bataille Contra Deleuze: Sadism and Masochism with Tiger Liu

[Music] Thank you. It's as if to understand the meaning of masochism, one must already be a masochist. Yet, without a certain ready-made understanding of masochism, how could a masochist be bold enough to claim self-knowledge? So, which comes first, chicken or egg, masochist or masochism? Whichever one picks to be the starting point of our inquiry, we seem to be possessed by a vicious circle. Unless, of course, there is something universal about being a masochist, unless there is something unique about masochism which makes it intrinsic to life. If so, one needs no longer worry about where to begin, since one is always already begun. Where one seeks to unlock a mystery, one needs only a moment of contemplative retrospection. Welcome to Acid Horizon, the fury podcast. And today, we are discussing the general economies of sadism and masochism with researcher and friend, Tasha Tigerloo, who recently completed a thesis on sadomasochism at the Center for Research in Modern European Philosophy. He wrote it on Freud, but Thai, and how a masochistic view of reality can change our view of the economy at the political, emotional, psychic, and cosmic level, from which reach. And of course, we drew the opening quote from that very thesis. Tiger, welcome to Acid Horizon.

Thank you. I'm really glad to be here. Of course, joins over by Craig and of course, Noah, our resident Bataille and sadomasochistic correspondent. And I'll pass it over to him for the first question.

Yeah, uh, happy to be here, Tiger. Thanks for coming on. Really enjoyed your thesis. Um, and it's, from what we understand, to be the first part of a larger project, extricating what's missing from Bataille and his allegiance to sadism, um, and hopefully supplementing some masochism, some inserting some masochism, uh, into his project, which will unlock, uh, some missing pieces, perhaps, as you, as you frame it. Um, firstly, you kind of wanted to, you know, get a little bit about your background. Uh, what started you on the path of researching masochism? Um, who's largely hard to find, as we discussed in the pre-show, hard to find translations of even the German texts seem to be incomplete. Um, and he left his larger project, The Legacy of Cain, unfinished. Um, so how did you get there? And maybe, uh, brief it, he says, teases out why masochism, perhaps?

Yeah, so, um, it's a pretty long story. So initially, I was very obsessed with the lure, and, uh, I was hoping to write something about the lure, that I saw it might, might not be a very good idea because I was so obsessed with the lure. I need to get out of it. At the same time, because of the obsession, there's a kind of a massive history relationship with the lure, and it just occurred to me that I can write about a work that the lure produces that is perhaps not so delusion. And try to dig into this whole. So initially, my thought was to just write generically about masochism, and specifically I wanted to write about the political aspect of masochism. And, and then my supervisor told me that would be boring, and just to push into like, even more cosmic or crazy direction. And that's when I begin to dig into Deleuze, uh, the book more, dig into Sade more, and dig into some kind of, uh, try to ground it in something bigger. And that's when I, it occurred to me this notion of economy that that Freud was using also, that I was also using. And I was trying to on that basis, trying to to create like a philosophy of Sade that wasn't done before. I still haven't done yet because I didn't manage to do it. But yeah, that's kind of generally how I got into this stuff.

Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And how, you know, why did, maybe, Kenneth, before we move on to like, what Adam wants to ask next, why, why did Deleuze write about Sade? Do you think, briefly? Um, who is Leopold von Sade to you? Like, what, if, what is something that kind of is missing from the Wikipedia article, the limelight, right, for, for that kind of figure?

Yeah, so, so what is Sade's largest book? It's very difficult to guess his intention. But one of the things I find very, very interesting about the book is that even though I said there's perhaps a book by the lure that's not so delusion, but there's like something very typical of the lure, which is what I attempted to call is psychoanalytically anti-psychoanalysis, and also dialectically anti-Hegelian position. Zaki was trying to take. And he's very consistent with different repetition and a lot, some of the seams in this book eventually develop into Anti-Oedipus. And, um, yeah, I think that's that was that was kind of what makes this book, um, so intimately, or rather, what justifies this book as someone who's written by Deleuze, rather than just his side project.

I absolutely. He was, um, I always say he's an Australian Ukrainian writer. So the reason why I emphasize the Ukrainian aspect is because it's not only because his parents, his mom was Ukrainian, but also his writings were largely inspired by to what he would call the Jewish region of Galicia. So that would be in the region of Ukraine and Poland. And, um, he, and like someone such as Freud, he has a very distant relationship with Judaism. And he famously said that in order to write Judaism lovingly, he has to descend himself from the Jewishness. So one thing that's really interesting about his writing is that even though he writes about Ukraine, and his stories are all inspired by the Jewish tales in Ukraine, he writes still in a very orientalist way. He writes it from the standpoint of Austria. But interestingly, there is a masochistic kind of dimension to this writing because even though it's like a Oriental projection of this kind of Austro-Hungarian Empire point of view on Ukraine, but at the same time, dynamically, there is a kind of, uh, reversal or reflection on on European-ness, where on being a Western European, and she was trying to, he he occupies this very strange position of writing. So I guess that's what's missing from some of the kind of biographical, uh, details on on Wikipedia.

That was fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, Adam, you want to go for it?

Well, I mean, thinking about these ideas of the lesions of dialectical anti-Hegelianism, or dialectical anti-dialectic, one of the things that I think you really pick up on with Deleuze is how he tries to shatter the typical dialectic we have regarding, uh, masochism, particularly when we put it in the phrase sadomasochism. So, of course, you know, to use the joke, so Sade says, the masochist goes to a bar. The masochist says, "Hurt me." And the sadist says, "No." And then Deleuze writes in, of course, his introduction to Venus in Furs, "This makes no [ __ ] sense." Why on earth would the sadist have a masochist for a victim? The dialectic doesn't even sort of kick off there. So I guess, in the course of your research, how do you think that we have misunderstood masochism in light of thinking about it, you know, fully in terms of sadomasochism? Is my idea, which is just a lot, you know, is it a lumping together of two categories which simply by the perceived sexual abnormality therefore complimentary? Or is there an internal dialectic which things to say this to the masochist in a way which doesn't fit the typical dialectical schema of, you know, you are simply the inverted negation of the other?

Yeah, so, so when Deleuze criticizes Freud, when he criticizes this, uh, state of this term, sadomasochism, there are several levels of attack. So on the first level, the critique is against a kind of vulgar dialectics. Because if we read, um, the 1905 version of the Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality, Freud's justification for sadomasochism is basically saying that, well, if a sadist wants, well, if a sadist wants to know, or if a sadist is able to derive pleasure from hurting people, then the sadist must know that the person that they were hurting is already being hurt, which means that the sadist is at the same time, oh, he doesn't say at the same time, initially he says is a masochist. Um, so in that sense, masochism, sadism, masochism are two sides of the same coin. That's that's just very vulgar, uh, representational thinking. And, um, but even later on, after 1920, after he wrote Beyond the Pleasure Principle, after the reformulation of concepts such as death drive, and he tried to give Freud, try to give masochism like a more primary position, even then he tried to make sadism, masochism work, try to make it into a synthetic unity. What does that like to code or not? It's very difficult to say. But even then, that that would be the second level of Deleuze's critique, which is this impossible synthesis that Freud clearly realized that there is something distinct about masochism in relation to sadism, yet he was still trying to force it into one process, into one impossible synthesis. But I think that irony is that, uh, even though Deleuze criticizes it as a kind of impossible synthesis, but isn't Deleuze the person who also believes in impossible synthesis, like such as important disjunctive synthesis, etcetera? So that, I believe, is like kind of what Deleuze was able to achieve in the book, is an inclusion of psychoanalysis, trying to use psychoanalytic languages, and trying to, in a sense, to show that these languages necessarily have a certain residual things about experience that, or the excess of experience, that psychoanalytic concepts are unable to capture. Um, but what's the excess? What is that? Something still yet to be formulated within the book.

Oh, yes. There's, uh, Tiger. Yeah, thank you for coming on the show again. It's really nice to have you. This is a topic that I always wanted to touch on, and I think we're really doing well so far. Uh, the one thing that I think I would like to ask at this point, if I were approaching this material for the first time, is, um, what is Deleuze's formulation, or basically, what is his idea about how the masochist becomes the masochist? Um, I mean, clearly, it's not merely on the axis of pain and pleasure that the, you know, that the sadist and the masochist are joined. There's something far more complex. And the one thing that I've noticed, I think your characterization of coldness and cruelty as being Deleuze's psychoanalytic anti-psychoanalysis, in a way, one of the interesting things about this book is there are inflections of his relationship with Jung, as Jung kind of being above Freud here, but also in his, um, understanding of the way that the masochist, basically the will of the masochist to be punished, kind of precedes the, the institution of the law of masochism itself, which kind of connects to his understanding of Kant a little bit. I was hoping maybe you could kind of flesh out that formulation. I know Deleuze says that there's kind of three conditions basically upon which the masochist grounds their own masochism. Uh, maybe you have more than that, to say, but perhaps you could say a few things about that.

Yeah, so I think that actually, uh, reminds me of, uh, my favorite chapter in that book, which is he was trying to re-situate the logic of masochism in, in, um, in the history of ethics. So he lined up this kind of, uh, history of philosophy, which is very rare, because that's not how he used to think about history of philosophy, because the figures that he, he picked this time is Plato, Kant. Um, which is rare, because otherwise he would have chosen Nietzsche or some kind of Hegelian, pre-Socratic figures. But this time, he picked Plato, and then he says, it's a, the revolutionary aspect of Plato is the fact that everything derived from The Good, the law derived from the good. And the second revolutionary moment is Kant, who for whom the law never derived from the good, but the law derives from the law, purely from itself, the categorical imperatives, the transcendentality of it all. And the third figure he derived was Kafka. He says Kafka occupies this contradictory, or rather paradoxical position of the Kantian law. So that's kind of touching on his reading of, for instance, book on Kant's ethics, Sade. So he says the paradox in Kafka's writing is that there is a law, and it's transcendental, and because it's transcendental, we can never know what the law really is, which means that the more we obey the law, the actually the more guilty we feel. So this kind of gesture of affirming the law creates a kind of eternal recurrence that infinitely multiplies the guilt that we get from them. All solution to us. Iron, only irony can resolve this kind of immense, this kind of eternal heaviness of being. Um, and at the end, he placed Sade, masochism as an even more novel approach, which is mutilation. Um, and he says, or rather, punishment. He says, because precisely that there is a certain guilt or shame that's just eternally just coming down from nowhere, from the heaven, from the transcendental realm. And because we don't know the law, therefore we want to resolve the punishment comes first. And this is where he started to refute Freud. Because one, Freud was writing, he was trying to fit masochism into this kind of ego, superego, its structure, to the superego. Freud very explicitly identified with the Kantian classical categorical imperative, that there is a law, there's something that is out there, and we can never reach for it. It's just there, it's telling us, making us feel shameful. And the ego will be the masochistic kind of position. So sadism is placed onto the superego, masochism is in somewhat, uh, constitutive after ego, and it is just doing its own thing. And, and for Freud, the dynamic is precisely there, sadism, superego, masochism, ego, and pseudo-masochism. This is the dynamic. And Deleuze says, well, masochism, precisely because the punishment comes first, therefore this gesture of punishment actually undermines the very authority of the superego. So what you create is a suspension of the entire psychic structure of the superego, id.

Um, I kept trying to think of like examples when I was writing the thesis, and then I realized the Sade example in Lana Del Rey. All of this kind of, like, flashing out one's desire, far from, because the traditional critique about about her is notion that, oh, she's just kind of affirming patriarchal notions of woman. But from a Deleuzian, or at least from a Deleuzian masochistic point of view, the precisely this kind of description or exposure of one's desire, desire to be dominated, was able to suspend the very structure itself.

Yeah, undermines the structure because the structure can only function by not exposing itself. Well, it's interesting because I did my Master's thesis precisely on this topic. So we, you and I, we kind of share something. And the example that I used, I, I homed in on Kafka's "Before the Law," because I think that as a particular vignette shows the way in which the impulse to want to be punished or want to be subjected constructs the very libidinal circuit by which the transcendental law gets re-established again and again in this sort of like Ixion-like eternal recurrence of the law, this infinitude of guardians of gates and so forth. But, you know, that's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, yeah, yeah. Deleuze. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like consistent with Deleuze's reading of Nietzsche, because he thinks that the typical, the, the best way to demonstrate the Nietzschean eternal recurrence is precisely the law, the categorical imperative, because you have to infinitely constantly assert yourself, subject yourself to the law, right? That's great. If we could actually just sort of fall, sort of a sort of take a bit of a step in a different direction regarding sort of the, the context of the thesis regarding the Thai, one of the things I think which is the great sort of impulse of your work so far is that, yeah, the Thai's work is based on sadism, and therefore it ends up restricting its own economy, even as it tries to solve philosophical and non-philosophical problems. But before we can get to the point of masochism being a problem for philosophy, and also a solution to our problems caused by sadism, can we use of us say why is sadism a problem for philosophy? Because one of the things that I really found really interesting and particularly like fascinating was how you describe sadism in terms of the battle between reason and the passions, and how the idea of laying down the law, or this excess, being laying down of what is rational, what isn't, and where you can go, where you can't go philosophically, it's really baked into the modern turn of philosophy, which is the same lineage that Deleuze and Bataille both responding to, which is the, the lineage from say, Hume. Hume provokes Kant. You know, Hume says that reason should always be a slave of the passions. Kant's, uh, [ __ ] what are we gonna do now? Okay, we'll delineate the rational or the irrational and try to place everything within the guise of the rational and prohibit, or literally discipline out the excess. And then if you take it, you take a through line to that through Victor Schelling, Hegel, through Hegel, we get to Bataille, and through Bataille, we get to Deleuze. I guess if we want to pose, I said, why is sadism made a problem for philosophy such that masochism master enter upon the scene here? Like, what did that is making an event not just against Freud, but it seems like, and you are making a similar event, of course, against the entire history of philosophy in its mode of thinking about excess?

Yeah, so, uh, so with regard to sadism, I think one interesting takeaway from Deleuze's critique of Freud is that the reason why I caught it, another qualification of that book is dialectically anti-Hegelian, which is the remaining dialectics. And then she does, I think, in some way, Deleuze's sadism, icially, in a sense that, so sadism, if we think in terms of the concept of excess, um, there's a kind of excessiveness that is in some way we can read it as, uh, sadistic. And, um, at the same time, sadism is also the failure of sadism, or rather, the failure or to capture a certain excess with which announces a kind of a different form of sadism. So one example I was thinking about is precisely the relation between Kant and Hume. So it was Hume, there is a notion of a sense of experience. So in the sense that we look at the, we look at the sun, and the sun comes up in the morning, and then comes down at night. And Hume says, well, we can never really derive much from that, even though we can kind of make some kind of induction, uh, based on that, and then we can live about our life. But at the end of the day, you never know whether the sun, what you're selling disappeared the next day. So there is something about experience that is outside of conceptuality, uh, with him, we're outside of the realm of knowledge. And Kant's work is in a sense, a reaction to that. If we think about Kant's attempt to transcendently defend rationalism against Hume, so, um, with Kant, he tried to reformulate, try to refound the ground for trying to secure knowledge, or try to trying to secure the possibility of metaphysics against human anarchy, anarchy of experience. Um, and then he formulates all of these different categories, but at the end, there is this residual excess, which is object equals X. Um, the object is always there that we can never really capture it. And what, what came out at the end is, if we read in a somewhat tragic manner, or maybe comic manner, um, there's a subject now, because access to the object, therefore the subject is now forced into this process where the subject has to continually come up with different categories, try to reformulate things, and try to use different forms of judgment and trying to, you know, come to terms with this kind of excessiveness. So in that sense, the, the Kantian transcendental subject is in a sense, sadistic. And the reason why I said it was sadistic is because when I was first reading, um, Freud's conception of libido in Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality, I think the way that he describes San libido is precisely that in the transcendental manner, that in order for objects to take some sexual meaning, or to take an erotic meaning, there must be a libido constantly investing meaning into things. So in the same way that there must be a Kantian transcendental subject investing subjectivity to to constitute objectivity. So in that sense, there is a kind of sadistic affinity between Kant and, and, um, and Freud. Hegel, in somewhere, was dealing with, I think, as long as you deal with the same problematic of excess, so necessarily will involve some form of sadism, one another. That is, if we say this, I'm in a more ontological or metaphysical matter, like do we actually expand a little bit on that in terms of excess and sort of the idea of breaking through limits and how the idea of transgression feeds into the understanding of sadism in many ways? How do you think it puts sadism, and even of course, therefore the work of Bataille and Kant and the German idealist tradition by extension, at its limits? Is there an, is there the other English presupposition, a transcendental of the transcendental of sadism, insofar as it relies on a model of transgression? You had literal, bite, literals of violence bursting out of the excess over that which exceeds.

Yeah, I think in some way, um, if we read history, the history of philosophy from the from Bataille's perspective, or from Bataille's perspective, uh, it all goes back to Plato, like, because Plato says, well, you have the sun, the sun is light-giving, and the excessive excessiveness of the sun blasts other lights onto us. So there is already a kind of a first ontological excessiveness that constitutes human reason. And for Bataille, the history of, um, philosophy has always been this process whereby trying to come to terms with this excessiveness, and this metamorphosized into, you know, work and and different themes, and constantly trying to repress this kind of excessive excessiveness as constitutive of human reason or human existence. And, and that's where I believe transgression comes in. Is, is, is Bataille's affirmation of that which is outside of reason. So from a Bataillean perspective, like I said, so the same dialectics of sadism exist. So at the same time, you have the sadism of the sun, the excessiveness of the sun, and because of that, uh, there is a certain also the excessive experience, and therefore there's a failure, the failure of reason to capture that kind of the excess of experience. But because of that failure, reason itself becomes excessively sadistic. And they could be a sadism towards oneself as well. But then again, Bataille never formulated it in that way. I'm trying to put things or trying to put certain things into Bataille's, uh, Bataille's, but I was just saying that we can't understand it that way. Lucanians are all screaming at their, uh, their headphones or their phones or the speakers going, say, Kant's ethics, say, Sade's ethics. We've said it. Okay, let's move on. Uh, Craig, Noah.

Oh, sure. Uh, yeah, I, I have a question. I, I really like this framing or this way of understanding sadism through, um, Bataille's notion of cosmological expenditure as, as being prior to the phenomenon and the figure of the sadist. Uh, what I find interesting too, and, and I only read the latter portion of your paper at Adam's advice, that's that's all I had time for, unfortunately. Um, and I'm not sure if you address this in your thesis, but to what extent do you think that Bataille himself, as a figure, perhaps contra Deleuze, embodies the contradiction of both the sadist and the masochist? If anyone has read Sybil's biography of, of Bataille, I mean, in some sense, it's probably the most thorough biography that we have of him. We understand not only that Bataille himself was very masochistic as a young student, stabbing himself in the hand with pencils and things like that, but in many ways, his childhood seems to express or, you know, instantiates, um, much of the, the sort of archetypal figures that Deleuze does in his anti-psychoanalytic psychoanalysis, which is Bataille's father was one who suffered from a debilitating form of blindness and at the end of his life was almost, it was practically immobile. And I mean, there's some speculation about some abuse or something there that isn't completely fleshed out in that book, but I wonder to what extent, you know, if if the biography compelled you to, you know, sort of plumb any particular insights about Bataille being a figure as somebody who straddles the line between sadist and a masochist.

Yeah, that's that's very interesting. Um, because my initial, uh, polemic against Bataille, there's three reasons for it. One being very practical, because I just need to, in order to finish the thesis, I can't just agree with it. And secondly, um, it comes from this, um, this little anecdote I heard from the Acephale, which is when they were trying to do some kind of human sacrifice stuff, everybody was willing to sacrifice himself, but nobody was willing to kill. And that was something I felt like there's something very interesting about that, that is a kind of a, an inability to to perform this kind of sadistic dialectic. And another thing is, um, is precisely the concept of expenditure, etcetera. I, I found it slightly more sadistic that he lacks an understanding of masochism in there. But what you mentioned there is very interesting, because initially when I heard, like, for instance, the cases where he was stabbing himself, what I was trying to elucidate in the thesis was partially that self-mutilation is not necessarily masochistic, that it's, it can be sadistic as well, in the sense that in the Freudian understanding, sadism were in the Freudian understanding of masochism, masochism is just sadism turned inwards. 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Could be this sort of black sun, or this indifferent Sun, a deathly son, a violent son. What, what is the connection between what's going on in the Three Body Problem and the work that you're doing with Bataille? And is that, is this a book that we should read?

Yeah, so you should read it. I don't know that that's so, so, begin to begin with, I always, um, sort of this, um, this phrase my supervisor always said in class, uh, which is, "Isn't it crazy we live so close to a sun?" So, in the sense that we traditionally think of the Sun as this kind of life-giving thing, but think about Mercury, um, that the sun is not at all this kind of, but now being. And, and that actually, that's one of the, there was this book that was kind of helpful for my thesis, but at the end, I really fundamentally disagree with it, which is *Outside the Team of Fevers* (sorry for the pronunciation). The book's over politics. There is a very great, I think, collaboration on the Bataillean notion of the Sun and all. But at the end, um, the book entered with the affirmation of sharing, which I don't quite see in the notion of statistic Sun. That the sun doesn't seem to care about you, care about us too much, too much. Because the sun, if we think about it, it's dying, and it's excessively sadistically dying, and just blasted all of this energy onto the Earth.

So when I, so, so that's the kind of the motivation behind using this Three Body Problem, which is the three bodies, uh, so the story goes something like, uh, there is this place in the, um, uh, Alpha Centauri, Norris three stars, and there was this planet that's revolving around the three stars. And because there are three stars, the movement or the appearance, the frequency of the sun was never, uh, calculable, was never predictable. And all the scientists there, what they were really having trying to think about is, how do we predict the Sun? And how do we organize our civilization according to the sun's schedule? And, um, at the end, it's impossibility. So sometimes there's only one very small star in the sky, everything on Earth, well, not on Earth, on that planet will freeze. And then sometimes it will be too soon, and it stays there for a relatively longer amount of duration, and there will be a civilization. And then suddenly there will be three suns, and the entire planet will be burning. And the worst scenario is when the sun lines up, and the entire planet will be torn apart. So what I saw was interesting about that is that it revealed the hubris of human assumption about our sun, which is because of our very short planetary existence, we assume the sun is something very stable and very kind and very caring. But really, the sun could go supernova at any minute. From a human perspective, we never know that. Or the sun is like, one day just be like, "See ya," and I will be frozen to death.

He's so cool. That would be very cool. Well, I, I, I don't want to take up too much of your time. I know we're coming up to the hour, and I'm sure Adam has some more questions. But maybe now is the perfect time to follow up with this question. So you're looking at Timofeeva's work, you know, uh, the, the upshot of which is, of course, we realize the intrinsic violence of not only the Sun, but the universe writ large. Um, it's a common move, I think, politically to make, which is to acknowledge, you know, this gross indifference of of the cosmos, but then, okay, we're going to do Kumbaya by the campfire anyway. You know, we're, we're going to create a politics of sharing. And, you know, amidst the realization that, you know, there is this, you know, kind of violent axiom that drives everything, we're going to do our best regardless. I, I know maybe this is a straw man or a mischaracterization of not only Timofeeva, but maybe even your critique of her. But what, what is the political upshot then of somebody like Bataille for you? Um, especially after now, after you have in your thesis, you know, kind of taken a posture against him? I mean, clearly you are conceit. I mean, you're using him to to flesh out your own theory of of sadism of sorts. What, what do you think is the sort of positive takeaway, if there's any at all, uh, from this encounter with Bataille?

Yeah, so, uh, what I was writing about that, I was mostly thinking about what kind of ecological practices come out of it. And I think one thing that's really positive, uh, with Bataille's concept of expenditure and success, is to reject any kind of austerity cultural practices. So, kind of a very vulgar notion of conservationism, uh, this idea that we're always running short-term energy, we're always running short time. Everything, I was from a Bataillean perspective, uh, the problem that, like, for instance, the Earth is warming up too much, it's not really that we're not, we're short of energy. It's that we have too much, that the sun has blasted all of this radiation to us, and we don't know what to do with it. So one thing, like my supervisor often mentioned, is this notion of the Albedo. If, in the sense that if we now start wearing like white t-shirts, the Earth will actually start to cool down more or less. So, in a sense, the question has become, it's not about conservation, it's not about how to use energy, because energy is not something that you can capture and possess. So there comes to the question of possession, because energy, in a sense, is an ontological reality. It's different. It's, uh, it's like a grid, it's like a, it's like a matrix of matrix of difference. So the question has become, how to creatively dissipate energy, or how to, how to, um, exist in a certain energetic position without causing too much entropy? How to, without heating up the planet?

My question then would be, the risk is, or I mean, I would highlight the risk at this point, you know, do we risk then making recourse back to this more sophisticated utilitarian position, which, but I would absolutely be against? What would be the bulwark that we could create for ourselves so that we don't do that?

Yeah, that's, that's another aspect of Bataille that I find really, uh, refreshing, which is he was the one who tried to think about the limit of capitalism. Because these critiques of capitalism have always been that, no, capital is unlimited, limitless, uh, is is constantly trying to expand, then there is no hold to it. And whereas Bataille is trying to say, no, capital is incredibly unlimited, if we, from take it from a general economic point of view of energy, that it actually is very limited in terms of to the way that it tries to dissipate energy.

Yeah, great. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, I had, this is all really wonderful, Tiger. Thank you. I think I had, you know, my my favorite takeaway towards the end is the, there's a quote that I want to read. It's like, "Sacramento was able to see that in order to live, living beings must first learn to possess it. It is only through possession, at consumption of energy, can be possible." Um, and this to me was really interesting because Bataille, of course, as we've mentioned, emphasizes excess over scarcity, at the cost of perhaps what it takes to possess it, to then expend it. Um, and this has a lot of political concerns of winners and losers when we look at history of of violence, of positions, of who was able to consume, um, things like that. And, you know, I kind of wanted to segue it into my my final question, which was, you know, something I'm interested in is using masochism politically, even though it might be boring, or so far it has been boring, or or to find a political theological use. You know, Deleuze mentions there's a black theology of pain versus of pleasure. Is it, is your main line of start this ecological project, or are there other paths that can be taken with masochism? Just from your interaction with it, I mean, the legacy of Kaine, it was it was about property, it was about work, death, love, war, right? How, how might one go about, you know, if this is really for me, right? How do I go about, uh, trying to apply, uh, masochism or interface it with other problems, contemporary or historically, you know, to any recommendations that?

Yeah, so, so initially, when I set the masochism, well, rather what my supervisor said, Marxism, just to do a political thesis on that, is be boring, speak mostly because of masochism has only been psychoanalytic as a psychologic concept. And from that respect, if we do some kind of politics of masochism, you end up reading Marcus, reading, uh, fetish, or reading kind of Freud, or, you know, that stuff. And from that perspective, it's boring. But then after I really started trying to rethink like a broader concept of masochism, I find it incredibly interesting because himself is a, it's a utopian thinker. Like I said, mentioned earlier, he believes in borderlessness, he believes in statelessness, so he's a complete internationalist. Like, at the end, the story I mentioned, the guy I want to join the 1848 revolution and trying to bring about a new world where there is no state or anything. So one thing that was that I was fascinated by is his starting point are in a sense lined up with a lot of this kind of social Darwinian notions of like, oh, the world is just live struggling against us in life, and all of these kind of competition going on, and there is no God, there is no morality, there is no this and that, and it's just a matter of evolution. But most of these social Darwinians became fascists, whereas he tried to affirm a kind of utopian, um, I'm not sure if I can say communistic, but a stateless certainly, um, form of being. And I was, that was something I was trying to work out. And what, what made that possible? Well, what is the conditional possibility for that form of political reality based on this understanding of natural history? And I haven't figured that out yet. Hopefully, someone will.

No, definitely super helpful. Um, and, you know, I guess there's also, you, you open, I had to say this at least once, you opened the paper and Craig, you missed this, video opens with Schenectady, New York, which is my favorite movie, and it was a great, so it was a great opening. I, I, it was fantastic. So, you know, there's some masochistic film analysis studies out there too. Awesome. Well, I do really like the idea as well, focusing on ecology, because there's, there's a, it's kind of ecological geographical tradition actually, which I think would be good. I think it'd be quite good to think about in terms of breaking mass out of a kind of social Darwinist milieu, because when we was doing it with the Bataillean Bataillean context seminars, Contra pieces, no, you got us to read was, um, Stephen J. Gould's *Could Pop Him With No Crackpot*. And the idea that actually someone like Kropotkin's sort of reading or rejection of Darwin in favor like a mutual aid reading, it's actually very common, specifically for those areas of Eastern Europe, uh, the former Russian Empire, and boring on it, because their reading was rather than kind of a player versus player, there's no, he put a PVP, a player player reading of SARS, all everyone against everyone else because they're all competing for scarce resources. But nonetheless, as soon as they stop, as soon as they scared resources, but nonetheless, there's so many to go around, they're still fighting over them. And the Russians of examples where they're critiquing down an idea that actually in what player versus environment kind of aspect, it's actually the coldness of nature that's what we're responding to, even in the coldness of say, that the Western Ukrainian Plains of Galicia. And I, I really think there's a strong geographical element there, not the sense that there's a geographical in the way that Hager would do it when he starts, you know, grabbing those [ __ ] skull calipers, but like actually a geography of of the geographic ways in which you can change your relationship to natural distributions of energy in terms of competition versus cooperation.

Yeah, for sure. Like, uh, that's one of the reasons why I was trying to assert, uh, were affirm Sacrament, which is, but I was writing in, where was he writing in Paris, somewhere nice where the climate is warm and and everything is hot, whereas Sahmasik is always thinking about this kind of cold, cold place in Europe. And, and that's when I thought that maybe it's not always excessive, sometimes he needs to try to capture energy first, you need to possess energy first in that sense. Yeah, like there's definitely like this kind of geographical element to his entire cosmology and what kind of politics kind of rise from, especially in the age of global warming. One thing I was, this might be very irrelevant, uh, I was, I've been obsessing with Russian cosmism a bit, and I recently got this book called, um, it was basically an anthropological study of, uh, Russian cosmism in today's, uh, Saint Petersburg, which is this notion of the cryo chamber, and they were trying, people were trying to freeze their corpse and so that someday in the future, they can be revived. So there's a kind of this notion of the cryo, this notion of coldness, what can, what kind of sociality is really associated with that? That's something really fascinating to think about.

That is fascinating because Russian cosmism is usually far too solar for the idea. There's a cut, a feather of he's like, yeah, we've got to colonize the Sun and then reanimate everyone. The coldness of death, it's a moral failing. This idea of a cryo chamber. Yeah, maybe listeners, if you haven't already, go back, check out a Russian Cosmos episode and think about what happens if you replace the sun in this, because maybe most of the things we really, really [ __ ] feder of a new one episode, but maybe there's a future to this.

Yeah, yeah. I think one really important concept there is, is entropia energy. So that's one another thing that's related to politics and political philosophy, which is, I was reading a lot of Punctual's writing on the side because at the time I was trying to figure out this kind of French discourse of Citizen. I'm one of the key things that Punctual was picking up in dasad is the size association was the French Revolution, and how Saint Joseph was actually taking certain things, the licensing just would say something, we need to affirm energy, we need to not affirm force, we need to affirm energy. And the sun has some kind of commentary on that. And so I always thought that, what does it mean to formulate entropia energy as political concepts? Energy is an ability to do work, but at the same time, entropy seems to be this kind of very floating concept that's not yet really formulated into political discourse, because it's often been sort of as chaos in a very vulgar way, whereas another more fruitful aspect of it is this concept of irreversibility. But, you know, we're kind of getting very digress from masochism now. I have two final things, like quick things to say, not really questions, but just like to see if you see if you've thought of this, like, you know, I'm reading, you know, Miss the coldness and cruelty by Deleuze, [ __ ] and the mothers and the sort of like, you were saying this, like there's a lot of Jewish mysticism, the Talmud, and and things, and lots of lots of science fiction. It can be brought in, you know, we just talked about the the Russian solar, what is the, the word for where they replace the sun, where we find a new sun, like that is found throughout a lot of science fiction. Um, you know, his three mothers made me think of the three mothers trilogy, which is the, the, I believe it's the Italian or French or Spanish series of movies about the three witches that live across the globe kind of controlling everything. I was trying to interface his three mothers with that. And then also, um, the book *The Book of the New Sun* by Gene Wolfe, or the main character is is living on a world where the sun is dying and needs to be replaced, millions of years in the future. And his trade is being a torturer. And so I, you know, I see there's so many inklings of this everywhere that it's, it seems it can't just be a coincidence that Masoch was also dealing with so many of these themes, right? And there's this sort of genealogy of these ideas that we are existentially facing that I think he laid a great groundwork for. So I think he's really useful in a lot of ways. Um, and it's very, it's very, it's exciting, and it's just like, kind of like you said, you, me, and Adam think you're doing something new here, very new. And so it was really exciting to to read this as Bataille fans, and as people having to deal with say, you know, to say it to saw it a lot. So it's been, it's been a pleasure talking with you and and reading your paper, and we're really looking forward to, uh, you finishing the book. That would be very exciting.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I'm not sure if I will be able to finish it because I'm, I don't know, because right now I'm kind of moving on into my PhD thesis, which is a different direction, which is the concept of extinction, which might be kind of related to masochism. And then there's this brilliant book recently published by Urbanomics by Thomas Monahan, and the book is called *X Risk*. And he was basically the main argument of the entire book was that extinction is a very distinctly modern invention, and it's only made possible with Kant's critical metaphysics. So, kind of to look back into our discussion earlier, um, uh, with regard to Kant and sadism and the failure of excess. So the argument, the reason why it is concrete made it possible is because the four counts, you can, well, whatever it is, already is, that's a metaphysical principle of it all. And you can make metaphysical speculation about perfection, about eternality, about, uh, futurity. But after the critical project, you can no longer do that anymore, not justifiably so. So, in that sense, because in the past, when you studying, when you think about annihilation, it's always this biblical religious notion of apocalypse. It's about, but what you, when you're studying apocalypse or eschatology, what you're really studying is the eternality of habits, what remains after the world has ended. But after Kant, you can't do that anymore. You cannot never speculate. And Kant himself contemplated on human extinction for quite a while. There's an essay called "The End of All Things," and it opens, "Possibility." And also, I was thinking the categorical imperative, we really, in a different way, becomes a human extermination morality, um, because, you know, the awkward position of the suicide that occupies his milk. So, in that sense, it's, it's kind of maybe it's relevant, but, uh, to masochism, very much reminds you and stuff like you get out of Ray Brassier as well, the idea of the extension. I mean, at one point, we should probably talk an episode on Kant's "End of All Things" because it's very, it's very, uh, goth, although also chance is nonetheless a very masochistic thinker.

Craig, do you have any final?

No, I, I just want to say thanks once again, Tiger. I mean, you've definitely opened a line of thought that, you know, like Noah and Adam have said, you know, I think is is quite original and cuts across many of the interests. Um, and this will be a paper that I could probably come back to to at least instigate some of my own thinking. So I, I appreciate what you've done and and I thank you again for coming on the show. I'm really, really glad that it's actually people find it inspiring or in some way.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks again, Tiger. It's been great. Thanks everyone.

Help, but I guess all right. Well, Rob, Robert and Robin B, sadist, sadistic, and keep our listeners tied down any longer. Uh, let's say, let's break the contract, which of course we have imposed on everyone here. I've been the structures of the, the NC known as podcasting. Sign off. And, uh, Tiger, thanks again for coming on. It's been great having you on.

Yeah, thank you.