Transcription
And the crowds are scandalized. And rather than Jesus saying, "Oh, no, no, no. I was just speaking symbolically." He like doubles down, triples down.
Exactly. I like that you say that, man. You're being a crummy Protestant right now. Saying then when you pray that prayer, you're not you're not really asking Mary to tear up the record of your sins. You're asking her to take that to Jesus. Exactly. Exactly. That Jesus would tear up the record of her sins.
When some when the the priest would yawn, you know, he'd yawn and then he'd immediately cross himself over his mouth. I said, "What are you doing?" He says, "So the demons can't come in." It's like, "Duh, demons are not I if if you are a bad guy and you are open to demons, they're going to come in uh through your nose. I am not an ortho, bro. People have called me based before. I get mad when people call me based."
Does Orthodoxy teach there is no salvation outside the institution? You know what happens to Catholics or Protestants like me? Are we just are we pretty much in for it? What what what are your thoughts on that?
Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.
Hey guys, welcome to the channel. Today we have a really really special episode. Um, I have the huge pleasure of welcoming Father Sarapim. Uh, Father Sarapim, thanks so much for, uh, joining today. I really appreciate it.
I'm I'm glad to be here.
So, a number of weeks ago, I made it might have been a couple of months ago now, I made a video on three reasons why I'm not Eastern Orthodox. And, uh, the the comment section was pretty stacked. And a few people, a few of the Orthodox um people were saying that rather than me just giving my opinion on what the Orthodox believe, I should have a priest on to to talk. So that way you can sort of steelman one another's positions rather than straw man them. And I said in the comment section that I would do that and so I guess this is kind of a way of me sort of um fulfilling um what I said there. And and why why father?
So I'm I'm the man of steel, huh?
You're the man you're the man who's going to steal.
Steel man. I've never heard of that.
Okay. I'm the man of steel.
And and and the reason for for for fire seraphim is um well, he he's super gracious. His stuff is really really helpful and I've benefited immensely from various videos I've seen online as well. So um yeah. So again, thanks uh father for for joining. Um can I can I begin with this question? What what drew you to Eastern Orthodoxy? Have you have you always been Orthodox?
Um No. No.
Yeah. I was raised Roman Catholic and I was born in '58. So I'm an old fat guy. And um Vatican 2 happened I believe in '62. And my mother comes to me after a few years and says, "Oh, you know, you don't have to fast anymore because you're less than 16." And and you um the the magisterium has said that you don't have to fast until you're 16. And I thought that was the dumbest thing of all time. I didn't know at the time that they'd already gutted fasting because all we had was fish Friday, right? We didn't eat meat on Friday. We ate everything else, but we didn't eat meat. And that was a big aesthetical endeavor. And I thought, "Okay, we don't eat meat. That's cool." And when she wanted to change it, I thought that was just stupid. And that was the beginning of the end for me. I didn't really like that. uh the way I was raised. Um my dad was a believed in the man upstairs, you know, he just believed in God, but not really particularly anything, you know. Uh he taught me everything I know about being a man until I became an Orthodox Christian. So I owe great debt to him, but religiously he just didn't really it wasn't a significant thing to him, you know, at all. And uh so I rejected Roman Catholicism when I was still young and uh I would be uh watching uh the old Star Trek reruns on TV while my dad was cooking breakfast and my mother went to mass and then she'd come back and we'd have breakfast. So uh those are my memories of of early of Catholicism. I just rejected it because there was very little emphasis on Christ. There was an incredible emphasis on the pope. Um I just it just seemed very shallow to me, very legalistic to me. There was uh there was no there there. That's a famous quote of WC Fields when he received when he referred to Cleveland. He said there's no there there. So there was nothing I I there was nothing to to bite into. Um and so I rejected it. I went to college was looking for purpose in life as I thought every young man in the entire universe did. But I've learned that that's not true. Not every person looks for purpose in their life. A lot of people, most people just kind of go through life, whatever happens happens and they have their desires and they have this and they have that and they might be a good person, a bad person, but they don't really have a an eternal goal. You know, they just got God's up there. God loves me. I'm going to heaven or and that's about it. You know, of course nowadays, people are, you know, they don't even care that much, right? And so I had a desire to fulfill my purpose and I thought okay my p purpose must be to do something good in the world right to leave the world a better place. I wanted to become a heart surgeon and I was getting good grades and everything. saying I was on track for that, but that just didn't seem to I don't know. It didn't track with me cuz I thought, okay, I'm going to I'm going to help a person with a bad heart and they're going to die 20 years later, 30 years later, 80 years later, I'm going to be the greatest heart surgeon of all time and my people are going to live 60 years after each heart transplant and they're all going to die. So, it's all temporary. I hate temporary things. So, I thought, what's eternal? And uh I was doing research. Um, I was in biochemistry and I was doing research uh between my junior, my uh my sophomore and my junior year and at the at the university and uh I was terrible at the research but I was uh rooming with a guy called Navigators. I don't know if you've heard of them. I don't know if they're in the UK but they're kind of a Protestant they call them a parurch organization. Okay. Uh which is a strange term, but it's it's like the they have their typical kind of uh Roman road kind of theology, kind of substitutionary atonement theology and everything like that. Not not Calvinism, but uh you know, evangelical Protestants, okay? And he was just calm and sweet and good. And I think he gave me a Bible. I came home and I had that sort of experience of a spiritual uh change where I asked Jesus Christ into my heart. But at the time I was asking in my heart because he would forgive my sins because he took all my sins on the cross and the the wrath of the father is appeased by that act and therefore uh I would be saved. And I I made a lot of changes. I mean I started attending uh a local campus crusade uh place and uh preaching to people and all that stuff. But I I just didn't I it really bothered me that so many uh beliefs were just accepted. There was a cacophony of beliefs. We believe in Jesus. We don't really talk about if he has two natures or if he has one nature, if he has one will, two wills. We don't really talk about uh any of that stuff, but we do talk about that we believe in Jesus. He's the son of God. He died on the cross for our sins. Uh and that was about the only thing that we had in common. Baptism. Yeah. different beliefs about baptism. Um, most people believe that baptism was symbolic of your uh of your belief sort of like renewing your vows in your marriage. You're already married, but you're showing the world that you love each other. And other people believe, of course, baptism was I didn't have the orthodox doctrine about it, but more or less that baptism is necessary for salvation. Then there's the eukarist. A lot of people believe didn't believe at all about the Eucharist. They thought it was just a commemoration. And other people said, "Well, we don't do that at all." Uh, etc., etc. I mean, there's all things Mary the Thetocus. Oh my gosh. You know, there's basically one belief about that that she was just a Jewish woman that happened to give birth to Jesus Christ and then she went on being a mother, you know, which is was weird to me and all these other beliefs and everybody had all this cacophony of beliefs, but we're all brothers and sisters in Christ. And that didn't make sense to me because the scripture says that I will send you the the Holy Spirit, the comforter who will lead you into all truth. I thought where's the all truth? So I happened to meet meet my wife who was being a bad orthodox and going to campus gaz for Christ meetings because she was brought up in kind of an ecumenical spirit and she didn't really know the difference. All she knew was that she made the sign of the cross and she ate lamb on pasca, you know, and but uh I was smitten by her. So we started dating and I said, "Let's go to your church in Indianapolis." And uh then we go and it Orthodox church and uh it was just a regular vesper service, an evening service. And of course we have lots of responsorial litinies like in peace let us pray to the Lord, Lord have mercy. And I was absolutely completely blown away by Lord have mercy because we basically in among my peers it was all like we have mercy. God gave us mercy. We were supposed to die. We were supposed to go to hell. God has given us mercy by dying on the cross for us. And there was not really this idea of mercy other than that it's not to judge someone. Right? I mean there was an idea that God protects us etc etc. But really it wasn't really emphasized. It was mercy was you got mercy. Some people said you can't lose your salvation. Some people said you could. They were the weird ones etc etc. And so I when I heard Lord of mercy something in my heart just absolutely said this is right. These people have got it right. So I was college student. So what did I do? I checked out books. I I read them. Uh I read the Orthodox Church by Timothy Wear later Kalistos wear. uh one of your own from the UK. And uh I read a bunch of other books. I got a hold of a prayer book, the so-called Jordanville prayer book, which is kind of a standard among Orthodox uh uh English-speaking people. And I just I went on a a mission to New Jersey and was preaching on the beaches to people. And as I was preaching, I was no longer believing what I was preaching. I was believing what is Orthodox. So they had trouble with me because the last two weeks I wouldn't go to meetings and I wouldn't pray with them. I just I just I just couldn't I was out I I was in between. And then I uh when I got back to the university uh for my that would been for my senior year then I I pursued becoming an Orthodox Christian and you know became a catechiman and was baptized. I insisted on being baptized. My priest wanted to crisismate me already. Back then I was stubborn and uh and here I am. But the reason I'm Orthodox is because Orthodox is beautiful. I mean Orthodoxy is beautiful. I didn't find beauty in or in in Roman Catholicism. I didn't find beauty in going to some Baptist or evangelical church or even some uh charismatic church. What do they do? They have some announcements. They have some songs. If they're charismatic, they put their hands in the air. if if there you know otherwise you know and then uh a sermon and then some more announcements and some more songs and that's it there was nothing that was beautiful it didn't matter what time of year it was that was it okay a little bit about Christmas a little bit about Easter but right really on the day of Easter which I call Pusca um maybe the day of Christmas or maybe if they're leading up to Christmas I I just couldn't stand it I it wasn't beautiful and Orthodoxy is is beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Everything about it is just fits human nature like a glove. Just absolutely wonderful. And then I learned from Orthodox aesthetical theology. What the real purpose of life is, right? Um you might know of the Westminster Catechism. You know about that? You must know that.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
What's the first thing? What's the first thing? Number one,
the chief end of man to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
Exactly. And we say, "No, it's not to glorify God. It doesn't end near glory." The chief end of man is to have union with God. So you say, "Enjoy him forever." Okay, I get it. But but for us, it's much more intense. It's like the whole purpose of your life is for the image of God, which every man has, right? Because we're made in the image of God, to become his likeness. Because that's what it says in the in the in Genesis. Let us make man according in in our image and according to our likeness which is archaic way of saying so that he can become like us. Right.
Sure.
And we cannot know someone unless we come become like them. So for us salvation is becoming like God not being saved from hell.
Yeah. I I think you're definitely putting your finger on one of the weaknesses of modern evangelicalism. That's for sure. I I've tried to say sort of recently that um salvation is so much more exciting than just you're not going to hell when you die. Salvation ultimately even even for for Calvin is union with Christ. Uh sal you know Calvin in the institute says something so beautiful when he said that if if Christ was a far off from us everything he did for the salvation of the human race remains of no avail to us. You need to be engrafted into Christ. There needs to be this wonderful union. And so, yeah, salvation is participation in the triune God, isn't it? Now, obviously, the way that we would understand that would be slightly different. I I do love that emphasis and I really do appreciate that. So, some people claim that orthodoxy is a religion of works and doesn't have room for grace. I'd love you to speak into that. So, I guess in just personally in some of my interactions online, I don't know if you see this, uh, Father Sarapin, um, whenever I'm engaging with they're called orthobros. I don't even know if you know that that's a thing.
Yeah, I know about the rose.
Um, and you know, it it doesn't matter how much I say, you know, Christ is so gracious, so wonderful, so merciful. You know, he has more grace than you have sin. Whenever I'm interacting with or bros, it always seems to be, oh, but no, don't don't forget this though. We need to like do stuff as if, you know, I don't believe in good works, too. It's and so I'm not sure if that's a fair representation. Like, obviously the ortho bros aren't going to be a fair representation of orthodox theology. Obviously, I'm not that silly,
right?
Um, what? So, so what is salvation for the Orthodox Church? Um, C can you save yourself? What can you speak into that? Is that all right?
Yes. Um, you absolutely cannot save yourself. I mean, we're saved by grace. I mean, that's pretty pretty clear. And we're saved because of well, primarily, I mean, because God is, right? God is who he is. He made us according to his his will and his plan and um God can do anything he wants. So God saves us. But the mechanism by which he saves us is that Jesus the son of God only begotten of the father begotten before all ages light of light true God of true God. The eternal God became man in time. And now Jesus Christ is eternally God and man, two natures that are joined together but not mixed. And then he lived the perfect human life and did not sin and paved the way for our nature to become changed through baptism. And then for us then to have the ability to become perfected and then to know the one who is perfect, to become to participate in his energies, in his life, in his grace. And he made it possible because he did that as the first perfect human being, right? As the as the second Adam. So for us, it's all about the incarnation and and becoming like God. And you know the the verse says it in Colossians, I don't remember where. Um, that we are according to the measure and stature of Jesus Christ. So by this definition of humanity, you and I are not humans yet, right? We're not fully human. To be fully human is to know God and to have nothing but God in our heart, right? To be completely vessels of the Holy Spirit, to have no uh darkness in us whatsoever and to easily do what is right and to easily not even desire to do what is wrong much less do it. So this is a transformation that occurs over temporal human life leading us to eternity. So right now you and I are uh eternal beings or maybe a better you know if you want to be technical about it everlasting beings right because we began in time but now we don't end right.
Sure.
We're completely eternal I mean the good guys the bad guys everybody's eternal right. And for us salvation is perfection now how do you get perfect I mean how do you get how do you get good at playing guitar by practicing how about by talking to people who are good at guitar, right? How do you good how do you get good at being humble? Well, by by being humbled. How do you learn to love? By loving, right? So, for us, it's not works. It's a reaction. Just like is it works for the flower to grow towards the light? No. It's natural for the flower. It's called geotropism, right? It grows towards the light. We grow towards the light. So for us, it's not that we must do works, it's that we won't be saved without works because the whole point is perfection.
So if you have a baby, go ahead.
No, I was just going to ask it. Um, no, you give your illustration, then I'll ask a question.
So, so if you have a baby, you have a child and you love this child, the child's so cute, everything's beautiful, but you do not train the child. You don't talk to the child or you just sit the kid in front of the TV or whatever. Well, it you know there are studies kids have who watch like hours and hours and hours of television have poor vocabularies, have poor impulse control, etc., etc., right? So that child could have been perfect. That child could have been incredible, but you didn't teach him. Right? So the child had all the potential to be a great artist, to be uh a beautiful person, but that opportunity was squandered by the parents, right? And what parent would do that? Unfortunately, a lot of them do. But a good parent wants to put of themselves into the child, right?
And uh that's what God wants to do to us. He wants to give of himself to us.
Sure. The way the way that the reformed understand this would be, and again, I found I found Calvin really helpful here, that you cannot sever justification and sanctification. Um, you know, that they're both found in in union with Christ. Um, but there is a sense even with reading um Sirill of Alexandria on his commentary on the gospel of John which by the way is just the the greatest uh commentary on John. I don't know if you've read Sirill on John.
I have not I didn't know it existed.
Is it insens or something?
It's um it's on the the ancients Petristic commentary series. Um
Oh really? Okay. Okay.
Yeah. But e even in there you know um Sirill will use the language of justification by faith alone and not works. Um and it seems like even like serial seems to be able to make a distinction between uh justification and sanctification. And I I wonder if sometimes this is where we can be like ships passing by. Um I would just love greater sort of clarity there. So we would say that that you you would agree that Christ is our righteousness himself. So we're we're we're united to him by the Holy Spirit. And so we receive the righteousness of Christ on our behalf, but also the Christ who we're united to makes us holy until perfection. Is that would you agree? Would you agree with that? How would you understand that?
Um yes, I agree with it. I guess I I might say it just slightly differently, but um yes. Uh I mean all of our goodness comes from God. I mean all good comes down from heaven, the father of lights, right?
So of course so I mean we don't do good in and of in and of ourselves.
But I mean we love him because he first loved us,
right?
But but when God is within the heart, there is this desire within the heart. There's this um even compulsion within the heart. Not a self-compulsion. I mean totally free. Okay. If you compel yourself, you're free. Right? If I say I need to get up at four in the morning to get my work done, I'm saying I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna force myself to do that, but nobody else is forcing me. So, I don't I consider that a free act. Right.
Sure.
And but but we're free in our hearts to love God and then to um do the things that that that a person who loves God would do. love our neighbor and um pray to to uh help our neighbor to uh to uh have a desire to read the scriptures uh everything all of it every good work is because uh we love God right and we react and we react to him.
Um
that's it I mean the whole point of life is to become perfected
you know it's it's not to not go to hell
like you said
I agree with That sounds terrible. I mean, that doesn't sound very interesting at all. You know, uh,
what's the point of all of this if that's just the goal, right?
Exactly. Well, if if you don't go to hell, but you're still a sinner, what good are you,
right?
See, I mean, there's no sinners in heaven. There's there's a change that occurs. Now, obviously, most of that change is going to occur at the last trump, right? Because we're still going to be, you know, have making all our problems from the from until the day we die. But we're getting better and there's a desire in our heart to change. But imagine I can't imagine being a sinner uh and and and being a a forgiven sinner. That that sounds terrible. Um I want to be a non-ser.
Oh yeah, me too. Would you would you agree with the simultaneously just and sinner? There is a sense in which we are, you know, like the apostle Paul even in 1 Timothy 1:15 is able to say he's a sinner. Like would you agree with that paradigm that we are righteous in Christ and you're becoming more holy and also
we're still riddled with sin.
Of course. What does St. Paul say? I think it's in chap chapter 7 of Romans, right? That what I do I don't do. That what I don't want to do I do. I mean this is St. Paul talking here, right? The other one who said, "I've completed the course." Right? That was at the end of his life, right? That wasn't in the middle.
Of course, we're sinners. We're sinners, but we're also righteous. We are a so unique as a spiritual being that we are capable of doing the most uh ghastly things and turning around a moment later and doing something that's magnificent.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, thanks. That's helpful. So one of the the other big differences would be or one of the big differences would be iconography. So personally I I'm I'm I don't have a problem with iconography. So I'm not an iconoclast. You know I I could happily go through a beautiful building and enjoy icons or walk through the Sistine Chapel and enjoy Michelangelo's art. That doesn't bother me. Um but but I guess I wouldn't call myself an iconophile. I so so I feel uncomfortable venerating or kissing or bowing down to to an icon. What can you tell us what the meaning is behind that? And and is it true that if I if I don't kiss an icon on am I under a curse? I'd love I'd love your thoughts on that.
No, you're not under a curse. You're not under a curse. Um uh icons are a representation that the incarnation happened because Jesus Christ is fully man. Therefore, you can paint him, you can stab a sword through him, you can beat him, you can put him on a cross and he will die. He gets sleepy and and sleeps in a boat like Jonah. Uh he uh you could take a photograph of him if you had such technology, right? Uh he's fully a man and so we can re-represent him and the really the uh seinal event uh in the salvation of man is not the creation of man and you could argue that okay I'm fine if you if you say that's it uh it is the incarnation because the incarnation makes man able to come to God. Can come to man all he wants but uh and he does. But man cannot appropriate God, cannot understand God until he is a changed being. And that's what we believe happens in baptism. You know, not circumcision or uncircumcision or anything, but a new creature. And icons are all that is in iconography. And we're depicting Jesus Christ. And there's a spirit of reverence that I've never understood to be present anywhere else except Orthodoxy. This this incredible reverence for holy things. I understand be people reverence holy things. I get that. But uh it's just different in orthodoxy. It's just different. And we have icons. We kiss the icons. Uh we're not confused. We don't think the icon is the person. We don't think the icon is, you know, a part of the trinity or any, you know, we don't worship the icon, but we have great reverence for the icon. And a person who doesn't kiss icons, well, all right. You know, I mean, uh live and let live. I'm I'm not going to judge people. God will judge whoever he'll judge everybody. I don't have any, you know, I don't have any concern about that. It's not it's it's as we say in Texas, I don't have a dog in this fight, you know. I mean, it's not for me to decide.
Yeah. Sure. What What would you say to to those who and I'm not one of them, you know? I'm I guess what's the technical is it iconism where you're sort of neither iconoclass nor iconophile? Is it iconism? I think it's
I don't know that term. I don't know that term.
It's sort of like you you I wouldn't destroy icons. I could enjoy them, but I wouldn't venerate. I think there's something in the middle. So, I'm not one of the people that would say this, but how would you respond to someone that would say it's a breaking of the first and second commandments if you paint an image of Jesus or whatever? What What would be a good response?
Well, I would say uh why did Jesus to bow down before an image of a snake which represents Jesus on the cross? He told them to venerate the snake that was on the pole. Otherwise, they would die of snake bite. Also, the cherubim were in the high place, right? They were images. These iconoclastic Jews had images. So, we have to explain we have to be able to explain that. Um, what was the exact question that you said? How would you respond to those who would say you can't you you're making an idol if you try and depict Jesus in art?
Oh, okay. Well, I mean, like I said, those two things are those idols. Did God tell them to do idols? Um, uh, an idol is when you're worshiping something that that is not God, right? So your idol could be money, your idol could be, I don't know, Ganesha, your idol could just be something, right? Uh, but we're not worshiping icons. Icons bring us to worship God. It's a completely different paradigm. It's just we don't it doesn't even occur to us that it's any kind of worship. But for people looking on the outside, it's just like that that canard about call no man father. I mean people have the dumbest interpretation of that. It's just so stupid.
Paul says, you know, he says, "Call no, call no my father," Jesus says. And then Paul later on says, "I am your father in Christ."
Yeah.
Because I've begotten you. And then other times he says, "Brethren and fathers," when he abroades people. I mean, give me a break. Call no man father. I mean, that is so infantile to to interpret that verse is saying we can't say father. You know, give me a break. So it's it just in the same way it's not uh it's not idolatry to venerate an icon. It would be idolatry. There were things that people did that were that were uh excesses because if there's something stupid that can be done, somebody's going to do it, right? That's a human law, right? That's a constant.
So there were people that would take pieces of the icon and they chip it away and they'd add it to the Eucharist to give it more
power. Oh wow.
Obviously that's that's wrong, right? And the church actually wrote cannons. Don't do that.
Right. Yeah.
Right. I mean,
but no, venerating icons is brings us to Christ. The the honor to the uh type passes to the prototype, right?
So, if you're venerating an icon of St. Basil, you're remembering the works of St. Basil and you're saying the effective and and fervent prayer of a righteous man avaleth much. And she's saying, "St. Basil, pray for me. Do you do you think there's a possible danger with it? I guess you kind of already answered that then. Yeah. Yeah.
Of course, there's a possible danger with everything, right? I mean, anything that can be abused will be anything that can be misinterpreted will be. We've learned that especially from the internet. Now, even things that can't be misinterpreted are because of the internet. Right.
Yeah.
So, of course, I mean, people do stupid things uh and people do sinful things. And if you look at the history of the church anywhere, whether it's the Orthodox Church or anything else, uh you see people doing stupid things and terrible things and very unrighteous things, but the core is holy.
I put out a video um and and mentioned my concerns with the athus to Mary. Can I can I read a couple of the lines that caused me some concern? I'd love to hear hear your thoughts on that.
Sure. Sure. By the way, I looked all over the place for that. I couldn't find it. I really did. I looked all over. So, you have to send me uh the link to your to your uh YouTube site. I assume it's on YouTube.
I couldn't find it.
So, there's a couple of lines there. So, so these I'll just I'll rattle through a couple of them. So, this is to Mary. Rejoice for through thee the curse shall cease. Rejoice for through thee the creation is made new. Then secondly, you are the acceptable incense of intercession, the propitiation for the whole world. And then uh the forgiveness, you are the forgiveness for many who have stumbled. And then there was one prayer. I don't think this was in the acist hymn, but it was in some sort of Orthodox prayer that I'd found that was lurggical. It's not just some random orthob uh that said to Mary, "Tear up the record of my many sins. Reconcile me to God. Make me worthy to stand. Deliver me from the eternal torments." What what do you what are your thoughts on that? Can Can you see why as a reformed guy that might make me shudder a little bit?
Um yeah, I get it. I get it. Let's do the first two. Read the first two because those are really easy. That those are softball questions. The first
Yeah, the three I understand the three one. But so so rejoice for through the the curse shall cease. Rejoice for through the the creation is made new.
Okay. So obviously when we think of the thetokos, we always think of the incarnation. We don't really think of Mary without Christ. Mhm. And we know that the thetokos intercedes for us and we have hundreds of thousands probably of of stories um many of them written down but many of them just preserved you know locally of the intercession of the theos for um for groups of people for countries for one person etc etc. So we know that she's very close to God uh and that she is uh a great intercessor and that uh she's constantly uh praying for us to her son. That's how that's where her power comes from. I mean her power is by praying to God. That's always the case with all the saints, right? No saint can do anything of his own. You know, we have a doctrine, a dogma that that demons cannot read your thoughts, right? Demons cannot read your thoughts. People are afraid that demons can. But that's not true. The demons cannot read your thoughts. Neither can an angel. Neither can anybody. However, saints or angels can know your thoughts because God reveals them to them. Right? But nobody can know thoughts except God alone. Only God. And uh so the theos is very close to God. And therefore uh the the thoughts the prayers of many are revealed to her in some mystical way we don't understand. Somehow the soul is able to understand much much more than when it's in the body. Right? It has vision. It has memory. It has it has uh hearing, shall we say? But it's able to see and hear and and know infinitely more than we know now. Right? I mean if there's 10 people talking to you, you might be able to make out one of them. Can you imagine 10 million people talking to you? Right? You wouldn't understand any of them. But in spiritual ways, we can, right? Because God reveals it. And this language that's used is is hyperbolic. I mean, uh, so much of um, Hebrew poetry is very hyperbolic, right? I mean, it has God, you know, crushing people. It has all these things. And then Byzantine poetry is hyperbolic. So to me I read it in a hyperbolic sense not you know not in a literal sense that she is our salvation. She's not our salvation but she is uh the way in which our salvation came to earth.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
So it's a different it's a different mentality in terms of how we pray. We pray very ecstatically and we pray very uh very hyperbolically and we're just used to it. it it's not a problem, you know. Um, but for in the West, everything has to be kind of like, you know, divided up just perfectly. And um, and I can understand why it sounded weird. I had trouble at the very beginning with orthodoxy coming from Roman Catholicism. I couldn't stand the way they talked about the mother of God. I thought it was just kind of smarmy and it I didn't like it at all. And um, so then I get Orthodox prayers and I go, "Oh, they're prayers of the mother of God." And I had that prejudice and it even took me years after baptism not to overcome the prejudice but to actually love the thetocos with all of my heart and um and ask her intercessions. Uh, what what really changed it for me is we have this custom of the Jesus prayer. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy in me. And this is said by monks thousands of times. It's said by them when they're doing anything. And it should be said by lay people too. And it's really uh the easiest way to pray intensely to God, right?
Well, these monks who are all about, shall we say, put it in a colloquial way, all about Jesus, they also are always going, "Oh, pania all holy." And they're always referring to the mother of God, and they're always uh showing great reverence for her. So, these are men's men, right? I mean, monks are they are hardcore. And yet they all love the mother of God. To me, that's why, okay, if they're hardcore about saying the Jesus prayer and about praying the psalter and uh about guarding the dogmas of the Holy Trinity and they love the mother of God, then there must be something there.
Yeah. I mean, uh, so I I'm I'm absolutely all for, uh, loving and honoring the Theotocos, uh, certainly more than a lot of my evangelical brothers and sisters do, right? I mean, a lot of them would deny that Mary is a Theotocos, you know, I've had I've had debates about them with them about that that before. Um, which is obviously ends up either in Aryan heresy or notorian heresy. You can't really Exactly. Exactly.
You have to affirm that Mary is a Theotopus. Um, but then it's sort of like, well, c can we ascribe salvific predicates to Mary liturggically? That's kind of like where I get a little bit, I guess, unstuck. I understand your um reticence about it. I get it and I I appreciate your uh your respect, your respectfulness in in expressing this. Uh, it's just a it's a different culture. The Eastern culture is really different than the Western culture. I don't even I feel like a stranger in a strange land. I just it's just different.
You know, I live in America. I've grown up in America. Therefore, I'm a child of the West. And yet, the West seems strange to me. And uh our way of expressing ourselves in prayer is just so perfect to me. Uh and I understand your reticence, but I would say that uh what I did about my reticence was exactly this. I said, "Okay, the Holy Spirit is going to lead us into all truth. That's dogma." Okay. Is there all truth right now among everybody that purports to be a Christian? Well, no. Clearly not. People are believe even believing things that are contradictory, right? We talked about the Eucharist or baptism or Mary, all these contradictory beliefs. So, it's not possible to have contradictory beliefs if there is only truth. So, where is the truth? Well, the truth is in the church. And then where is the church? Well, the church I learned partially by work, you know, by checking out books and reading them and such. And also just by God inspiring me, just by God visiting me, uh that the church is the holy Orthodox church. Now, if the church is true, then what the church says is true. Not individual people within the church, but the doctrine of the church is true. the the fronima the mind of the church is true and if that's the case then that's how I evaluate everything uh should we pray the the tokus yes because the church does it should we fast yes because the church does it do we pray for the dead yes because the church does it really as as simple as that if the church is true then what the church teaches and what the church does the core of what the church is is true and that's how I would evaluate it so Um, I understand your reticence and I respect it. Uh, the only way that you would really be rid of his reticence is if you were to become a baptized Orthodox Christian and over the course of time grace would just make you just understand it.
Okay. Is there is there sort of like third, second, and third rank doctrines within orthodoxy? So even like with so as you said, you know, the spirit will lead the church into all truth. I imagine that you know off you're absolutely not not like Jehovah's Witnesses in a whole lot of ways. Obviously, Jehovah's Witnesses are are heretics for for various reasons, but in in like the Jehovah's Witness system, they all seem to agree on every single minuti no matter who you meet within.
Oh, no, there's lots of we have a term called the laguma. The lagum
Toll houses I've heard different that for example.
Yeah, I mean toll houses are mentioned in our lurggical uh works. They are actually in our hymns. the interpretation of what a toll house is, you know, knock yourself out. Whichever way you want to go. You want to believe that dogs go to heaven, go ahead. You know, uh, you know, I mean, there's arguments for and against these kinds of things, but the core doctrines and the core moral way of life is is not negotiable,
right?
Yeah. So, so, can I just say I I wasn't being offensive with you. I shouldn't have used the Jehovah's Witness example because
No, I don't think you're offensive. I'm not, like we said, I'm I'm not a snowflake. I didn't even even take that to be offensive.
Okay, good. I realize how that's that didn't come across how I'm sort of meant it. Um,
no, I get it. I I I get it. I mean, the thing is that we believe things that are core, right, at the like the creed, but more than the creed. Obviously, I'm a priest. We believe that there's grace in the priesthood. We believe that God appoints priests to uh officiate and therefore the Holy Spirit comes down upon the gifts and changes in them in the in the the body and blood of Christ. All these things are dogmatic and they are certain and they are not negotiable in terms of are you an Orthodox Christian. But other such things, you know, I mean there's a there's a Russian idea that if you say Psalm 90, which is great, you'd probably know it as Psalm 91. Uh, it's a great psalm about about warfare, about spiritual warfare, right? About demons. Uh, there's some priests that will say, "Say that psalm 40 times a day and you know this will happen." It's like, "No, I mean, if you want to say it 40 times a day, I'd rather say 40 psalms a day rather than the psalm 90 40 times, you know." And there's just all these kinds of things, right? Um um I remember uh I was in one of my churches that when I was young uh when some when the the priest would yawn, you know, he'd yawn and then he'd immediately cross himself over his mouth. I said, "What are you doing?" He says, "So the demons can't come in." It's like, "Duh, demons are not I if if you are a bad guy and you are open to demons, they're going to come in uh through your nose or whatever." I mean, they're they're not they don't need your open mouth, you know. So there's all these kinds of kind of quaint things. Everybody has quaint things. Uh, but the core moral way of life, the frona, the the life of the church, the mind of the church is fronaima. It's a an un untransatable word. It's Greek. Um, uh, is is in is is true, you know, and all the little stuff, you know, I I don't care. But I don't really like this idea of big T and little T, you know, traditions, you know. I mean we got to be careful about that. I mean different different customs. They might have lamb on pusca or they might have something else. Okay, you know or whatever. Or they might have different uh customs about how they make a monastic or how a wedding is conducted. Right. There are differences. Uh, but fundamentally the the mind of the church is the same, right?
Yeah. I mean Yeah. I mean, you probably would disagree with this um being an Orthodox priest, but from from my own experience in in the Protestant faith, I I have never been to a Protestant church, whether it's Presbyterian, Anglican, just typically evangelical, um Baptist, or whatever, where we have disagreed on the fundamentals. Now,
There, there's caveats to that, you know, I think. Um, so you know, you would go to one, you would go to one Baptist church and they would say that Mary is not the Theotocos. And obviously that is a a serious error, but I think if I was to press them and say, "Do you not believe that Jesus is God?" Or or do you think that he has two persons rather than two natures? They would obviously say, "No, he's two natures." So even though they would articulate it in a way which I would say is wrong and dangerous by denying the theotocos um when it boils down to it they would agree that Jesus is you know God and man, two natures, not two persons. Does that I don't know if that makes sense.
>> Uh it makes sense what you're saying. I mean but I don't agree with it in terms of I think there's a cacophony of of beliefs. I mean that's what I experienced when I was going to my campus crusade for Christ meetings. I mean people would say okay you believe in baptism. Oh, you you think it's a symbol. Oh, you think it's actually necessary for salvation. That's a big difference, right? Or the Eucharist. Obviously, if you're hanging around uh uh Episcopalians and and what all the people you said, Presbyterians and and etc., they're they're going to have some core beliefs that are basically the same, right? And they're not going to say that the Eucharist is is is the body and blood of Christ. Although I think Anglicans kind of sort of say that, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And Episcopalian I can say it.
>> Yeah. Okay. Okay.
>> Yeah. The Belgic and others.
>> So there's a lot of difference in beliefs in my opinion. Uh and uh to me what I experienced I understand that you've experienced shall we say pious Protestantism if if we can use such a term because there's not really Protestants anymore, right? But we still use that term. Um because you're not really protesting. You just are what you are, right?
>> Um but uh you know, obviously you care. You read the scriptures, you try to love your God and love your fellow man, follow the commandments, all those things. But uh really the the lukewarmness of so-called Christianity is pretty evident, isn't it? I mean, now you can make Christ be anything you want, you know, because love is love, right?
>> Yeah. I mean, that obviously that's a huge problem. Um, yeah, that that's definitely a huge problem. And I mean, is is there is there a sense in which and you can push back and say that I've got this wrong. So, that's, you know, that's that's fine. I I have friends who u or one friend in particular who's married to a Romanian woman and he he's a he's a pastor in the Protestant tradition and um he he was saying how in Romania a lot of the orthodox believers are very different to you know the Orthodox like guys like you and others that we see online where
>> oh yeah
>> sort of saying in Romania like they they really don't know Christ genuinely like it really is just about the saints and other things and and they just don't know hard. Is that is that a fair push back? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
>> I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. Um I was in Greece some time ago. Uh and uh I think it was in October and we were in Athens. Um actually we didn't plan to be in Athens, but we had a a boat cancelled because of of a strike. So here we are and God has me in a square in Athens and this woman approaches me with her Bible only stuff and she first asked like a question. Yeah. And and and she was so imshed in her narrative she couldn't hear anything.
>> Yeah. She was sorry about that.
>> Well, I'm not sorry about it because what it's done is is caused literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of people to become aware of orthodoxy. So she's been an apostle for orthodoxy. Sort of like Caiaphas. Caiaphas was I'm not saying she's Caiaphas now. But you know, Caiaphas said, you know, it is good that one man die for the for the good of the people. And indeed, it was good, [laughter]
>> right? So he was a prophet, too. He just didn't get any credit for it, right?
>> So I I pray for Sarah. Sarah's obviously came about her belief because of trauma and, you know, and she believes what she believes and she has a narrative and etc, etc. Uh, but uh in in Greece absolutely uh Greece has this incredible holiness. I've met people in Greece that are incredibly holy. Also people that are completely clueless and think in terms of uh that you know u they have to wear the cross as an amulet or they um they have to pray to a certain saint if they have a a knee problem but a certain saint for a foot problem and said all this garbage and they don't go to church. churches are empty to a large extent. Same thing in Russia, same thing in Romania. Absolutely. But I would say uh as as a polite push back, you go to your average Baptist church in in Texas and most people have no clue what life is all about.
>> Yeah, I'll I'll take that. I haven't been to Texas, but I I I I'll take that.
>> Yeah. And uh yeah, I I am though genuinely sorry of how how disrespected you were. that sort of was um
>> it's all good. I I did I didn't bother me actually. She's talking to me and actually we had a a little crisis at the moment cuz my wife had lost her phone in Athens, you know, and had her better wallet and everything in it. Turns out we found it just a few minutes later. But so we're doing this and I'm talking to her and she just keeps going on and on and I'm just realizing that this is just like a u all it is is she's just going to herang me, right? And I used to tell her, "All you're trying to do is convert me." And it just was going to go on and on. So, I had to find a way to extricate myself because we had stuff to do. That was the only thing that bothered me about the situation. You know, um I I'm I'm glad it happened. I think it was it was certainly in the providence of God for it to happen. And I'm glad it happened.
>> And uh you know, uh I didn't feel I didn't feel accosted or anything like that. I just you know,
>> I just I just talked to her. You might be surprised to know that it it also happens to me by evangelical street preachers as well. You know, whenever I go to Cambridge, I'm often stopped by one guy. He's like, "Are you going, you know, if you were to die today, would you go to heaven or hell?" And what and I deliberately don't answer it in the I know how he wants me to answer because as you said, they've got their script. They want me to say all of the right words. Um, but it's not it's not very genuine, is it? So, um I
>> No, it it's very proud, too. I mean, I'm not saying they're individually proud as a person, but their religion is proud. And um I just don't I'm not into it. Um I I He who endures to the end will be saved since it's not the end.
>> I don't know if I've endured all the way.
>> Sure. Yeah. I guess that would be one difference between us, wouldn't it? That I I I would say that having been justified, I will be sanctified and then eventually glorified. Um, not hopefully you don't see it in any kind of not because I'm good. Uh, not because I have any righteousness in myself, but because Christ has kept me and will keep me to the end. Yeah, that that I guess we'd sort of different differ on that. Um, can can I can I get back to the Mary thing briefly?
>> Sure. Sure. Let's
>> just It's almost an hour. Are you are you doing okay?
>> I'm good, man.
>> Um, yeah. What What So that prayer then? Tear up the record of my many sins. Reconcile me to God. Make me worthy to stand. Deliver me from eternal torment. Does that bit I think worries me the most because Psalm 51 sin ultimately is against God and so only God can forgive my sin. To to pray and only he can tear up the record of my debt. And so to pray to Mary to forgive my sin and tear up that debt really troubles me. Of all of all those bits, that's the bit that really sort of just makes
>> I get it. I get it. It troubled me too. Um uh like I said it's just a different mindset for me when I pray those prayers I am asking the theals to direct her prayers to her son for me a wretch uh because her prayers are the per you know the effective and prayer of a righteous man avail much she's much more righteous than me so everything is in that prism in that in that context but I understand your reticence I had it as well I had it as well
>> but there's something above that reticence Where is the church? If the church is true and the church does it, then that must be true. That was always the way I approached everything.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. So, are you saying then when you pray that prayer, you're not you're not really asking Mary to tear up the record of your sins? You're asking her to take that to Jesus.
>> Exactly. Exactly. That Jesus would tear up the record of her sins. By the way, I don't know if you have this doctrine or not. I I understand it as a somebody outside looking in that this is kind of a typical uh reformed idea that sin offends God, right?
>> Yes.
>> It's a it's a sin. It's an offense to his justice and
>> sin keeps us from knowing God.
>> Yes.
>> But that's because we get dark. What happened to Adam and Eve? Just in our Lenton readings, in our lectionary today, we were reading about uh the the fall in the garden. Um and uh how the serpent says, "Hey, you know, if you eat this fruit, you know, you become like God. Then she looks at it. It's good that looks good." And she eats it. And then what happens? Uh when God is walking in the garden, she's afraid of him, right? She and Adam are afraid. They they make fig leaves for clothing because they know they're naked now. And they're afraid of God. What's changed? God has not changed. They've changed. Right? Sin made them dark.
>> Right? And uh we believe absolutely it's dogmatic that if if Adam and Eve had said we we sinned, we did something terrible, forgive us. They would have been forgiven and rectified and brought back to their state where they would eventually reach perfection. But they didn't do that. And because of that, God did not punish them. uh you can see that language in the scripture but uh he didn't punish them, he banished them from the garden because in the garden they would be eternal and they wouldn't die and who wants to live forever as a sinner. So they had to learn the hard way to be able to come fully back to God. So it was a corrective just like a doctor lances a boil. He doesn't do it to cause you pain. He does it to get rid of infection and incidentally causes you pain. Right? So God does not punish us. I know that language is present but you know men are we are the kind of people that punish you know uh we want when justice for us is you know killing the person who killed my family, you know, but that's not justice that's that's revenge. God does not uh is not offended with us. What the idea that God's offended with us, what an idea. Instead, uh when we sin, we are further from God. We're darker. We can't understand him. We're afraid of him. Um etc. And not afraid of him like the fear of God, but afraid of him like like uh the trembling, scared like a like a sinner, right? And so we don't have this idea that God is offended by our sin. We have the idea that sin is offensive to our being. It's toxic to what we should be. And that's a that's a big difference really, you know. And yet we use language that's very similar. You you you could find language. If you go to Lenton Triod and you'll find stuff that you love for sure because you'll find stuff that's very much about the sinfulness of man and don't cast me to hell. All this terminology that would be right there could be a footnote in sinners of the hands of an angry god for sure. But we don't look at God as angry nor uh believe him to be angry nor do we believe him to be offended with sin. He is a loving father who wants to bring us uh to perfection. And if we sin, then we're like Adam and Eve. We we hide in the garden, right? Even though God hasn't changed one bit. That's a huge difference. So all of our prayers, including the ones that that you as a reformed person would go, "Oh, that's exactly right up my alley. That's exactly the way we talk, too." those prayers. We might be talking like you're talking, but we're saying it in a different concept, right? I mean, I don't believe God is angry with me. I I don't believe God has ever been angry with me. I believe that I've been often daily, hourly, terrible, and yet God loves me.
>> I I have like a boatload of questions for that, but we might have to um move move on from that. But
>> so like the Psalms will sometimes say, you know, God is angry with the wicked all the time. I I I wouldn't I do not believe God is angry with me or or you who if if anyone is united to Christ by faith. I I don't believe God is angry with me if I do some sort of stupid sin tonight, you know. And it's not like I have to come in and out of this anger and love. No, God, you know, Jesus even says in John 15:9, as the father has loved me, so have I loved you. Mhm.
>> So this waterfall of amazing love that we have stepped into um by grace is is always upon those who believe. But to the unbeliever, God would you not say God is angry with them at all in any sort of sense?
>> Oh no. No. God is not angry at all. Uh now the unbeliever might experience God's love as anger, the wrath of God. But uh certainly after death, a person who who is opposed to God, then after death uh I the illustration I use is the sun. So if you go to the beach and you go running and playing on the beach and you're out there for six hours and you get a really terrible sunburn, at the end of the day, your skin really hurts. The sun was beautiful. Uh it was wonderful. The next day, you don't go out in the sun because even through a t-shirt, the warmth of the sun makes your skin hurt, right? What's changed? Not the sun. You've changed. Your skin is now damaged. So, uh, a person in the presence of the love of God who hates God or is opposed to God in a in their pitiful way, well, it'll be like being sunburned in the sun. So, can you can you tell us a little bit about why the Eucharist is so special?
>> Oh, [sighs] it's like say something in French. Um, there's so much. Um, well, we take John chapter 6 extremely literally. Unless you eat my body and you drink my blood, you have no life in you. And for us, salvation is an inner change, right? And uh we take in the body and blood of Christ and are changed in an interior way with interior in grace that we can't fully we can't understand grace at all really, but we can only understand the effects of grace. So partaking of the Eucharist is actually completely central to our to our faith, completely central to it. in every in every possible way. Uh I that that gives it very little praise. Like I don't even know how to say how important the Eucharist is. Um but definitely I mean the Lord said unless you eat my body and you drink my blood, you have no life in you.
>> And so we take that very that's a very strict statement.
>> So we're going to do it.
>> We're going to do it.
>> And the crowds are scandalized. And rather than Jesus saying, "Oh, no, no, no. I was just speaking symbolically." He like doubles down, triples down.
>> Exactly. I like that you say that, man. You're being a crummy Protestant right now. [laughter] Cuz you know,
>> I believe this is magisterial reformism. [laughter]
>> Cuz that I mean, really, that's to me the the push back proves the doctrine,
>> right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. So, I'm sorry. I wish I could say more to you about the Eucharist. I don't really know
>> uh how to expound on it. Uh because it's just
>> you say Jesus in a special way and he meets us in a real special way.
>> What we say is his body and blood and we don't bother with um with um you know like you said all this metaphysics.
>> We don't bother with that. Now, is it clearly look like bread and wine? Yes, of course it does. But it's his body and blood.
>> I mean, if Jesus can raise the dead, including four days dead, if Jesus can create the world, [laughter] if Jesus can be raised from the dead of his own power, I think he can make bread and wine into his body and blood.
>> So, we just believe it. That's all there is to it. And it's just I mean there's all kinds of uh you know stories and things where the Eucharist has uh appeared to be flesh uh for people that didn't have faith and things like that. But we believe I mean I'd prefer to be the believer that uh Jesus referred to when Thomas uh said he said to Thomas, "Blessed are you because you've seen and believe. Blessed are those who've not seen and they believe." So I do not see the body and blood of Christ in the chalice, right? I see bread and wine, but I believe it to be. And belief is really a weak word. I know it to be. Sure. Whereas we we would say that it is bread and is body and it is wine and it is blood. You you wouldn't quite be saying that.
>> No. Um I I I haven't read everything that the holy fathers have written about it. I would say that that's a
>> no I wouldn't say that. I would prefer to say it is the body and blood of Christ and that's all there is to it.
>> Okay. So uh one final question does orthodoxy teach there is no salvation outside the institution? You know what happens to Catholics or Protestants like me? Are we just are we pretty much in for it? What what what are your thoughts on that? Well, I know that the Orthodox Church is the true church, and I know that I've been it's been revealed to me, and I know that if I don't do what's been revealed to me, I'll go to hell. I know that with all of my heart as far as what other people uh what's been revealed to them and what they're responsible for and how God will judge them, we do not enter an opinion about them. So, shall we say, we are uh agnostic about that. We don't say anything about it. They're outside the church. Let God judge them. God's going to judge them anywhere whe anyway whether you let him or not. And uh God is perfect. God is full of love. Um actually that's wrong to say it that way. God is love.
>> He's not just full of love. He is love.
>> And therefore we don't judge those outside of the church. I mean the Lord talked about that those who know are beaten with more stripes and those who know less are beaten with fewer stripes right so I don't judge people whe with their sexual behaviors or other things I judge the behavior right absolutely because I believe all aberrant behaviors whether they're sexual or not are are bring us further from God absolutely whether we whether it's our completely our fault or 90% our fault or 100% % our fault. It doesn't matter. All of it brings us further from God. But I don't judge people as far as uh how much are they really trying? I don't know how much am I trying, you know? So for people outside the church, let me I found a quote and I'll read it because I think it's St. The on the Reckless just said such a nice thing. Let's see here. You know, whenever I do these things, I always make notes and then I let them look at them. [laughter] It's kind of interesting. Okay. Okay. So here it is though. So I'll look at it for the first time. Uh you ask, "Will the heterodox be saved? Why do you worry about them? They have a savior who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins. I will tell you one thing, however. Should you be an Orthodox and possessing the truth in its fullness, betray orthodoxy and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever. We cannot say that all this is from another quote. Um, we cannot say that all heterodox are lost. God desires all to be saved. If someone through ignorance be belongs to a non-orthodox con confession yet seeks God sincerely and lives according to conscience, God may guide him in ways known to himself. We don't say God will. We don't say absolutely positively but we say God is God. That's the way we leave it. You know,
>> some people might consider that to be a weak position. Uh, probably a lot of orthobros. I am not an orthobro. [laughter] People have called me based before. I get mad when people call me based. I don't like all that stuff, you know. But, uh, this kind of uh, ultra legalism does not belong in Christianity.
>> Uh, every what you see online.
>> Uh, yeah. for the or bros.
>> Uh yeah, you know, I can't say that I see a whole lot of it because you know, I have a life. Uh, but um yeah, um I have seen things about it, etc. Yes. And yes, I mean a lot of times these are um pretty much there are young men mostly who are really uh just have their own problems. I have actually heard of some orthobros like some conferences and I learned that um from people. I mean they were drinking and smoking and smoking dope and uh like most young men they had a problem with porn. I mean they could expound about orthodoxy and judge you know people like you. You're a bad guy because you're not orthodox enough for me. But they they couldn't control their own lives. They didn't have any nepsis, any watchfulness, right? It's just okay, you know. We have to guard ourselves.
>> Uh yeah, I guess Pharisees. Yeah. Um although I think the Pharisees there they were um they were full of
>> they were full of arrogance, right? They were full of this arrogance. And I'm not so sure it was because they were developmentally stunted. I think that your average orthobro is developmentally stunted.
>> Sure.
>> Psychologically stunted. The Pharisees, they were just bad guys. They were just bad people, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Arrogant, horrendous people.
>> Yeah.
>> You know.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, Father Sarapin, thanks so much for joining. I really appreciate it. It's been it's been really enjoyable and uh good to
>> We can do it again some We can do it some again if you would like.
>> That that would be good. How can how can people find you online?
>> Uh well uh our website is orthodox.net and then our uh YouTube presence is orthodoxnet. So orthodoxnet altogether and the website is orthodox.net. I would say we're more more uh active on YouTube and on Instagram than on anything else right now. I haven't written many articles lately etc etc. But uh we are putting out articles all the time. Uh, no, not articles. So, videos all the time, sermons, uh, kateesus, etc. Uh, you you saw you mentioned you saw what I said, don't look at the Epstein files. I mean that with all my heart. If you don't guard your heart, you're going to have those images. Uh, one of those has gone over a million views. [snorts]
>> So, so
>> that's good because Paul says to think about what is true and good and beautiful and, you know,
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you think if you think of what is bad, if you encounter bad things, even if you do them accidentally, you can have repercussions in your soul. Uh if you encounter them purposefully without with idle curiosity, it's such trouble. Now, there might be prosecutors, there might be lawyers, there might be whatever that look in at the unredacted files and they're going to have trouble, but they're doing it for a reason. And I'm not so sure that there's a prosecutor that's going to prosecute anybody myself, but that's that's my personal opinion because I this is at the highest places and this is highly demonic and to think that we can just, you know, prosecute this or something like that, I just don't think it's it's at all possible. But even if so, even if people are trying to do that or policemen who are working in in vice units and dealing with the most horrendous crimes, they get counseling for that stuff cuz that stuff is horrendous and horrible. They go home to their wife,
>> right?
>> And they go home to their children. And they go home to their daughter who's 12 when they just did a case with a 12-year-old girl, right? So, you don't want to put that stuff in your head unless you must put it in your head to do your job,
>> you know, and I don't want to look at it. Somebody mentioned to me something about the Epstein files and before I could stop them, I learned some piece of information and it was like, it's so horrendous. It's so disgusting. It's so horrible. I just can't stand it, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for being with me and uh thanks for those who are listening as well. Um make sure you like and subscribe and I'll
>> tell me how I get to you because I was looking for you, buddy. I couldn't find you.
>> I really was. Reformed pastor clips
>> and you'll find me. Yeah.
>> Okay. Okay. All I can tell you as a as a parting shot, I would say if you become a really reformed pastor, you get you become Orthodox. [laughter]