Transcription
Hey everybody, I have got a great podcast today. I've got Nick Tassler, who's an organizational psychologist, and he's got so many great tips and tricks to improve your business life and life in general. So, stay tuned.
Welcome back to another Future Tech video podcast, and today we are going to talk about organizational psychology. And we have a New York Times bestselling author here to help us with that. He's a psychologist and speaker, and Nick Tassler is CEO of Decision Pulse, a global management consulting firm which helps companies manage transformation with better decision-making. He describes himself as a dad, a husband, and a total geek about the science of human nature. And you know how much I love total geeks. He is the author of *Impulse Factor*, *Why Quitters Win*, *Domino*, and most recently, *Ricochet: What to Do When Change Happens to You*. And man, are we seeing a lot of change in our world now. So, welcome, Nick.
Thanks, Chris. Thanks, it's great to be here. Appreciate it. And as usual, I have Sandesh Patel with me. Say hello, Sandesh. I'm personally very excited that Nick is here today because he's a friend of mine. Nick and I used to live together back in the day, and there's one thing that I know about Nick and I: when we get together, we talk and talk and talk.
Awesome. Chris, Chris, I'd just like to say that the man I am today is directly because of Sandesh Patel. Hopefully, that's for the best.
Got deep. So, Nick, before we get going, I just want to ask you, how are you doing? How's your family doing with all this coronavirus stuff? You guys all healthy, wealthy, and wise?
Yeah, you know, I'd say we got two of the three. So, we get two out of three. Ain't bad, as as Meat Loaf said. Yeah, so I think, you know, we're doing, we're doing as well as can be expected. We're making the most of the situation. And, you know, knock on wood, we're all healthy, which is about it all that any of us can ask for right now.
I think that's awesome. That's awesome. Good here. Good to hear. Yeah. So, um, you help companies manage change with better decision-making, right? So, you must be interested in incredibly high def right now because pretty much every company is wrestling with just an incredible amount of change. So, um, you know, tell me, tell me, you know, this is sort of the perfect storm for change management. So, tell me, what, what is, you know, what does change management? What is organizational psychology? And, you know, like, how does the decision-making piece fit into there? Because I know that's a big thing for you.
Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, I want to emphasize what you said there. I'm always interested in profiteering. Um, so that, you know, this crisis, it's great. First bid. No, he's kidding. No, the reality is, change, change obviously was happening massively before the coronavirus, before the pandemic, before everything shut down. And now it's, um, you know, it's just gone into another level. Yeah. And at this moment, the biggest thing is, you know, I say is there's, there's two components really. And when he kept right down to the chase, it's the psychology of it, and it's the strategy of it. Part of it is wrapping your mind and your emotions around this idea that things are not the way that they used to be, and they probably never will be again. And then, then with that being said, and having that in mind, the question is, what do we do about that? That's where the decision-making piece prize. And that's where you have to get really cognitive and intellectual and rational about, okay, it's scary, and we're all trying to deal with it, and we have to be empathetic toward one another and and those fears. But we also have this job to do, you know, in our business, as well as in our lives. We have a job to do, which is take the next step, make the next decision in front of you.
Right, right. So, so, so tell me a little bit, like, you know, your specialty is organizational psychology. So, you know, just in general, what is, what does all that mean? You know, in and how, and how, how do you use that to help executives make better decisions?
Yeah, so I mean, organizational psychology is pretty much as the as the name suggests, it's essentially the psychology of organizations. Now, the reason what appealed to me about it, and kind of what the, what the idea is, is it's sort of like, it's that combination. It's the intersection of individual psychology and group psychology. So, on the one hand, what is an organization except for a group of individuals, of individual beings, which are bundles of emotions and thoughts and behaviors? And then how do they interact with other beings who are also bundles of emotions and thoughts and behaviors, so that we can collectively do something important, you've some kind of a of an objective? And that's really what organizational psychology.
So, basically, organizational psychology is herding cats.
Exactly, right. And you thought it was just consulting.
Yeah, I just thought it was actually much easier before.
Yeah, and so, you know, in some organizations, the cats are a little wider than others, but feral cats, and some cats.
That's right, that's right. So, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
No, that's, it's, I mean, that's what organizational psychology is. And of course, in a time of transition, it's like the, the dial is turned to 11:00 on all the emotions. And so that's just what it's, the same issues, they're just ratcheted up and made more complicated. Trying to get people to forget about what was behind and and productively and profitably move forward.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, so, you know, certainly you work with CEOs and executives and a lot of companies. One of the things that we've seen a lot of is, you know, just some real struggles right now with with how to, how to sort of move forward inside of this new world order we live. And how do you, how do you see that, you know, like from, how do you, how do you translate some of those messages from sort of the leadership down to the masses? You know, like, how does the structure play into that? What are some of the, the tricks and tips that you have for people in that area?
Yeah, well, I would say one of the things, it's sort of, it sounds boilerplate, right? But it's, it's something that particularly in a time like this, that executives kind of forget about, which is people need, fundamentally, everybody needs something to strive for. So, it's like, right now, we're just, we're, we're swimming in challenges, okay? And everybody's trying to figure out what to do. And we've got all these demands being placed on us, whether that be from our shareholders, from competitors, from customers, whatever it is. And so the focus right is, is like, what do we have to do next? What do we have to do next? What you have to do next? And, and sometimes the main thing I, I do for, for CEOs or executives or leaders of a team of any size, is just like, zoom out. Say, okay, we're in this, we're in this situation, and it kind of sucks, let's be honest, right? But at the same time, like, what are we still striving for? There is still a goal that we can shoot for, something that we can be that's motivating in the next five years, ten years. There's some area where we can still win that will fire people up and get them to want to go in this direction. And so it's really just like, it's naming that. Like, in five years, where do you want to win? All right? What, what playing field do you want to be on? And who do you, and how do you want to be the winner? Yeah, on that playing field. Yeah. And all that does is it like, takes people's mind out from from the pits, and it like, brings them up to be like, oh yeah, that would still be kind of cool if we did that. Like, it's not all bad. We can still be winners in this. We don't just have to survive, we can thrive. So that right there is a, is a key component psychologically for your team.
Yeah, you know, I, I gotta say that, you know, the most successful leaders that I've seen personally are the ones who have articulated a really clear vision, right? Because then that gets everybody sort of marching in the same direction. And, you know, and, and the thing that's nice about it is it makes everybody work more efficiently as well, because they don't have to guess about what they should be doing. They kind of already know what they should be doing. And it makes them more self-actuated and effective, right?
Yeah, which I think is cool. But so, so, you know, speaking of those kinds of leaders, like, what do you see is like the, the key qualities for a leader, or the things that they need to develop to become that kind of leader who can, it can clearly, you know, communicate those visions well?
A number one, and this is something I talk about a lot, that I think sort of gets, like, sometimes when people with a leader, things I have to be a visionary, they start to get like, too abstract. And so you want to have a vision, but it also, it needs to be clear. Not just what your vision is, but what your vision is not. Like, what ground are you going to cede to the competition? Because it's not in your wheelhouse, it's not in your niche. And so you're gonna say, we're not even gonna try and win there. That's that's Team X, that's our competitor, they can have that territory because we're gonna dominate in this one. And that really comes down to, at the heart of it, making a decision. So, you know, maybe you didn't know this, a lot of people don't, but, you know, the, the Latin root, do you know what the Latin root of the word decide means?
I don't.
Okay, well, I'll give you him. Okay, here's the other English word. I didn't know there's gonna be Latin on this test today.
There is. And this is just the beginning.
So why do you see that? So the other English words that share the same Latin root word as decide are homicide, suicide, pesticide, herbicide, genocide. What do all these words have in common? They're generally all good things. Yeah, they, they all come from the same Latin root word that means to cut or to kill. And so I think when you put that in the context of Deeside, it gives us a whole new understanding about whatever actually means to make a decision. Because decision is like one of those words like innovation and leadership and strategy that we just sort of like, we throw all the time to mean like anything. It's good is innovative and leadership and strategy and whatever. But anything it's bad is the other stuff, right? But like, what does it actually mean? Well, usually when we talk about making decisions, we talk about what it is that we're going to do. We decided to pursue this strategy, we decided to hire that person, we decided to marry that person, take that job, whatever. And we always talked about what it is we decided to do. But at its core, its essence, making a decision is really much less about what we decided to do, and it's much more about all the good options, great opportunities, we decided to cut, kill from consideration, so that we could pursue that vision, that one singular vision. And that's a point that I don't think leaders can hear often enough.
Yeah, no, that's a, you know, saying no. It's the hardest thing in leadership.
To know. Absolutely. Right. And it's kind of funny. I mean, there's sort of parallel. So when we work with emerging tech firms, one of the things that we see a lot of them try to do is they try to, they have a platform, right, which it does, it's, it's the magic widget that does a million different things. And they try to go to market with that. They always fail when they do that because you have to focus in on those specific use cases that are going to communicate your value proposition very clearly. And I think there's a lot of parallels to that and what you're talking about.
Yeah, well, in Chris, I think specifically with with technology, technology gurus, organizations, whatever, like the cool thing about it is everybody is a geek about technology. They're so infatuated with what technology can do that they get so wrapped up in the features, it could do this, and it could do that, and it could do that, that they throw it all in. And then for, you know, for the average caveman like me, I'm like, I have no idea what you're even, what this is even supposed to do anymore, right? Yeah. And so it's like, but it's not just technology. Every manager is partly in that position because they're a subject matter expert. They know a lot about what can be done in accounting, in finance, in HR, and all that. And so they tend to try and boil the ocean because they see all these opportunities for change and growth and innovation. And it's too much.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's it. So, so, I mean, that sort of brings about an interesting question. You know, we're going through periods just absolute rapid change. Are there some, are there some, you know, you mentioned sort of getting very hyper-focused on what you need to accomplish is sort of one one strategy. I mean, are there other strategies to deal with rapid change?
Yeah, I mean, one of the things, a really simple tool that I just called the control cliff. It's, it's really, it's the cornerstone of adaptation for individuals, groups, and organizations. And all it really is, is it's, um, it's this idea that all the things that you're concerned about. So say you, you make a list of all the challenges that you're facing right now, and all the opportunities that you could pursue. And you basically, you draw a line down the middle of a page, and then you start categorizing them. Okay, which of these things do we have some control over? Not much control over? And no control over? And, you know, the things above the line are effectively things that you don't have any control over, right? The, if you try and pursue those, and you spend a bunch of time and energy having status meetings about it and talking about it, you're simply wasting your energy on things that you can't control. And they're unproductive, and they're demotivating because your team never gets to feel a sense of progress because you're trying to pursue things that are out of your control. And it's a, you know, it's a really basic concept, but it's something that can poison every team, particularly in a matter of change. Like, part of the reason why rapid change is so uncomfortable is because you feel out of control. And so one of the best things you can do for your team is restore some sense of control. And the way you do that is you, you cherry-pick the variables in your situation right now that you have some influence over. And that's how you set your strategy and your objectives and your goals based on those things. So we can get some wins in the middle of the desert.
So, you know, it's sort of that goes back to the old Serenity Prayer, you know, you know, like, yeah, let me know, know the, you know, what I can control, what I can't control, and let me know the difference, right?
Alright, I think, you know, so the trick though, is in the last piece is knowing the difference. The wisdom, right?
Yeah. Are there, are there any strategies for, you know, making yourself a little wiser in that decision process?
Okay, you know, one of the things, okay, so I mentioned before, alright, there's this, um, I'll try not to get too abstract here, but there's this, there's this concept in psychology called distancing, self-distancing, psychological distancing. And effectively, what it is, is it's, and there's, there's a number of ways that we can do it, but, but essentially, what it is, is like the ability to step outside yourself and look at the situation from an outsider's perspective. And I throw all these different, you know, different techniques into a simple phrase that I call consulting and anti-you. Now, the anti-you could literally be another person. You know, I could, I could call up Chris and Sandesh and say, hey, guys, um, you don't know anything about organizational psychology, which is exactly why I want to talk to you right now, alright? So, or you call me, it, I don't know anything about technology, but that means I'm a great outside perspective for you right now. And so you can do that. But the other way you can do it is you can simply project yourself into the future, or your team into the future. And you could say, okay, when we, when we imagine ourselves on December 31st of 2020, of all this list, all the things that we can try and accomplish between now and then, which of these would we be the most satisfied to accomplish? And which of these will be the most disappointing if we didn't accomplish them? And so effectively, what you've done there is you've taken a look at it, and you would say, well, by saying we'll be disappointed if we don't accomplish it, it's sort of an implicit recognition that we do have control over that. That was low-hanging fruit that we passed up. And it sort of puts everything in perspective.
You know, one of the things we've talked about before is, you know, you guys had mentioned one of the challenges is is sort of this like tussle in in the organization between like tech now, oh gee, and marketing. And marketing has a bigger budget for technology. And you have some of that, right? Yeah, some of that could get dished over into the IT department. Well, the thing is, if you're an IT manager, that might be a real issue. But until you're the CEO, or you're on the board of directors, you don't have control over the structure of your organization. It's a good plan. You just have to accept that that is a thing that I can't solve right now. And go pick something else. Like, it might be a huge issue, but if you don't have control over it, it's a waste of your time, energy, and emotions to think about it, right?
Yeah, move on to what you can influence. Why now? I'll say in IT organizations, there's a tremendous amount of time spent on on stressing and fretting and commenting about those types of things. And you're right, it does, it does bring the whole organization down when you get mired in the things that you can't fix. But they become just a common conversation that's going through through the group.
Yeah. Yeah. That's tricky. Yeah. You know, so, you know, you talk about the sort of IT organizations and so one of the things that we've seen in our world here is is in 2008, when when we had that the cert, the first big crash. Now, there, it's gonna be, it's gonna be paled in comparison to what's happening now. But we first saw that first crash, you know, IT was at that point, a very, very much of a cost center item, right? And so CIOs were essentially tasked, and they tended to roll up under CFOs, and they were essentially tasked with driving costs out of the cost center, right? And fast forward it to, you know, a better economy and improved technology, and technology becoming central to businesses' ultimate goals, and and data as a strategic asset. And so now CIOs have been put into a place where they've been asked to be the thought leaders, the change leaders, to deliver top-line value to the business with some of their new strategies. And they've been in cost-cutting mode for a long time, or they may be just, you know, financial people in general, not have a real, you know, visionary technology background. So they're really struggling to to lead a group of people. And I think they get, they get very distant from the people, right? They don't get the input from the people who are in the field and doing the things that, you know, our gonna help the business. And I think there's a struggle between the ego of that and and the ability to lead, right? And I, you know, what are your thoughts on how to, how do people can rectify that? And, and so if I understand correctly, yeah, like, how do the, how do you stay in better contact with the, with the people in the field? By I think that, you know, a lot of times they come in and they're like, wow, I got to be the answer guy. So I just, when I show up, I just got to dump a bunch of answers on people and go away before they ask any questions, right? Yeah. And so how do you, how do you have get help people break that cycle and, you know, work better with with larger teams?
Yeah, I mean, you know, part of it is simply that that mindset shift. You know, you mentioned the ego factor, and one thing that a lot of people don't aren't aware of is research actually shows that that when you ask for advice, the people to whom you ask advice for, actually rate you as smarter than they did before. Yeah, which is very counterintuitive. But it's like, it's also, you're playing into their ego, right?
Right. If Chris asked me a question, I'm pretty much the bomb. So Chris must be a smart guy, right?
Right. Yeah. Yes. So, so, you know, there, there's that part of it. Just getting over that aspect. And I actually, it's interesting, I just read a journal article just in the, the last couple months in the Academy of Management showing that particularly like this affective is amplified for people that have a know-it-all reputation. Which, unfortunately, the stereotype is that tech guys have a know-it-all reputation. I don't want to burst your bubble, right? But, but, um, so just simply understanding that if you do that, one of the best things you can do if you have that reputation and you're trying to kick it, is ask people for their advice. Hey, I got this thing. It's not like, you don't have to, and this is the thing I try and I try and make clear, you're not outsourcing the decision to them. You still own the decision. You ultimately, it's up to you. But you're simply trying to gather another outside piece of information, a frame of reference that will inform your decision. You don't have to give up the decision.
Yeah, so that way you get them involved. You make them think that you do care about what they, what they think. And by the way, PS, no matter how smart you are, your vision is limited. Yeah, because it's, it's human nature. You can't see what you can't see. So it really will broaden your perspective. And most times when you do that, you, you know, I, I break the decision process into three steps. First is consult the overarching strategic objective that I call your decision pulse for the year, whatever is that number one thing. And then the last part is make the decision. But in the middle is that consultant and anti-you. And the whole point of the consultant and anti-you is to broaden that frame of reference. And then usually you end up doing what you are going to do anyway, but you've tweaked it enough that it involves more people, that you know, it's gonna basically have a greater likelihood of success.
And I gotta imagine that, you know, you like you mentioned, when you ask somebody a question, they, they feel a lot better about themselves. I noticed. Yeah, you know, one of the things that, you know, the old psychology bits, but, you know, letting other people talk makes them feel better about you, right? You know, so it's, it's an interesting dynamic. I think it's a really, really insightful and valuable perspective too, because, and, and I think what you're saying about like people, the know-it-alls, that's a, that's an important takeaway, because you're right, IT is full of it. I mean, we oftentimes we call them the know guys, you know, it's like, you walk up to him, it's no, no, no, can't do that. No, no, right? And that's it, that's a bluff. That's a big challenge to overcome. You know, people of a certain era, and I think all of us included, still remember the Jimmy Fallon skit on Saturday Night Live, Nick Burns, your company's computer guy.
Yeah, exactly. That that notion, stereotype or not, is not totally dead yet. And so particularly if you're not that guy, then this is just a really easy way to get over and like, let people know, look, we're not all like that. In fact, very few of us are like that anymore. That's like an outdated concept.
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for watching. If you liked what you saw, click the like button, subscribe. That helps a ton. And if you want to get notifications, hit that bell icon, because this will probably be a two-parter, and you'll get a notification when I post part two. And I will see you in the next video.
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