God Wants to Use Your Mind - Godly Critical Thinking

The bad tactics that sometimes we have is we'll say things like, "The Word of God because the Bible says so." Don't do that. That's not okay. "Cuz the Bible says so." And while that's true, it's with these people that are really seeking answers and like they really want to know. They're like these young adults, these young people. They are very logical thinkers, and they want it to click in their mind. Like they want it to make sense to them. And here's the thing: it is going to make sense. Because if the Lord wired our brains, and wired our morality, and wired our logic and our thinking, that's the way He created us, then there has to be some level of connection there logically with these arguments, if God actually designed it that way.

One of the things I like about your content, one of the many things I like, is it's a very balanced approach. And so you'll take different topics, and you always seem to find that angle that other people aren't talking about. MH. So one of my approaches to when I release content, or when I'm commenting on, say, like a, uh, something out in the news, or something, which I don't do all that often, but when I do, my question is, "Am I adding to the conversation something that needs to be said that hasn't already been said?" And it seems that when I look at some of the content you put out on those, uh, the commentary on some of the things happening in culture or in the news, I like that there's always this angle that you present that hasn't been considered. So what's kind of your thought process when you approach something?

I mean, I feel like it's easiest to take a side that already exists. So like, I feel like a lot of topics are really polarizing because you'll have two sides, and, uh, people always gravitate towards. And that's, I think that's one of the, you know, maybe one of the downsides to modern-day influencers or whatever you want to call it, is like people gravitate towards these personalities and so any that this personality says, I agree with that, and I'll repost it. And so I feel like it creates a super polarizing picture with any topic. So like, I, I don't know. I just think I like looking at topics not from that perspective, but like, at the end of the day, with a majority of arguments, there's typically, okay, well, I, I agree with you here, but then I also see what this person is saying. And so I think I, I try and take emotion as much out of it as possible. Cuz my thought is like, if you can't win an argument when you take away emotion, then like, you really, you don't have a good grasp on the argument. So I think a lot of people, they, and I'm not going to say it's manipulative because I think everybody, a lot of people have pure hearts with it, but I think they just, they tend to appeal to emotions and virality when they're talking about these things because it's easier to do that than say, "Okay, but I know you hate this person and you really don't agree with them, but like, can't you see this element of what they're saying?" And I think it does also help bring people out of a sense of self-righteousness where like, I have to agree with this person and to find common ground in the middle. That's, I mean, that's my goal. Is like, like, I'm not trying to, you're not my enemy if I disagree with you. I'm trying to find some type of common ground that we can agree on. Because isn't the, isn't the point of arguing so that we can come to a conclusion that both of us agree on?

Well, sadly, today, many people argue because they want to win. Something totally. And so I, my, my pastor used to tell me this piece of advice, and he would, he actually gave it to me first when I was going through, we did what was called premarital counseling. Something I highly recommend. So if you're wanting to get married, married to someone, you go through premarital counseling and you start to work through potential issues before they even become issues. So Jess and I, for several months, we're doing, uh, Steve, I know you and Amanda did the same thing. Um, so Jess and I went through premarital counseling, just looking for setting the proper expectations ahead of time, making sure we're not, uh, how do you say, stepping onto a minefield without being prepared for that. And so we're going through that class, and my pastor told me something that at first I didn't like the advice because he told me, he says, "When you lose, you win." Now, as someone who likes to win, I didn't take too kindly to that advice. I was like, "What does that even mean?" And then he began to explain it. It started to make sense that sometimes when you lose, that is, make a compromise, or you, you, you give in instead of being selfish, you choose to be selfless. You may have to give up something you want to help appease the other person. But what's actually happening there is you're winning the marriage. You're winning the relationship. So he wasn't talking about losing in the literal sense, like a competition. He was talking about selflessness, esteeming someone else before you. And I think that especially in the church today, on these hot-button issues, which issue today doesn't eventually turn into a hot-button issue? I think part of what adds to it is people, their emotions, and then they, they, they, they invest so much of their identity and what they think on any one given idea that what ends up happening is they view fellow believers as the enemy. Mhm. Now, we're not talking about compromising the fundamentals of the faith. We're talking about these peripheral doctrines where there is some debate. Like, for example, one of the ones I mention a lot is like, okay, are you pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-tribulation? Okay, there's room for debate there, and there's, there's an argument to be had, uh, on most of those perspectives. Uh, but like you're saying, there are, there's this, this great emotional response from many different believers on almost every subject. It's like every hill is something they want to die on. And, and they don't realize that the cost sometimes of winning that debate or winning that argument is the unity of the brethren.

Yeah, it's funny. I, I got a comment one time, um, and it was, I don't even know what the video was about. It was about something not related to this, but they basically commented, like, "Hey, I've been enjoying your videos lately, but I need you to answer this question: Are you a new earth or an old earth person?" And I, I'm like, "You're going to watch or not watch my content based off of what I believe the age of the earth to be?" But that's like what you're saying is like people, they just like, they hone in on things that, like, by all means, do all your research and have fun and spend hours researching it. But at the end of the day, it's like, that can't be the singular thing that causes you to say, "Oh, he's a heretic." Right? Or they give up the ministry that they're receiving for that one thing. Like, on the same note, people have told me, you know, "I've watched your teachings and I love this, and I love that. I love the teachings on prayer and on the Holy Spirit, but you said this, or you did this one thing, or you're friends with this person." Yes. And now I can't help but realize that all this time I was deceived. And, and it's so dramatic. It's so reactionary. And I'm thinking, "Or maybe you're just overreacting to a side issue and you're going to give up what you could be receiving for a disagreement on something that's not even primary?" Like, you talk about the age of the earth. I, I can understand the thinking behind there, especially if you've already started with the premise that like, you know, old earth, young earth, which one are you? I can see it from both perspectives, and both can be biblical, but depending upon their interpretation. Like, if I'm of the literalist interpretation of the age of the earth, then if you don't agree with that, you're compromising on the word. You don't believe that God's word is true. But the same could be said of the other interpretation. So I think, I think one of the things that can help us navigate these things is to recognize that the Bible is the perfect, inherent, inspired word of God. But though the Bible is perfect, our interpretations of the Bible aren't always accurate.

You know, the scary part is too, I look at anyone that has a phone, anyone that has access to YouTube, can have their own little platform, their own little world. And so I look at all that, and I'm thinking like, man, these guys can jump on different people and have completely opposite views and have a little group, and then they're feeding their group, and they can argue here, argue there, and it just becomes so convoluted. Like, where's the truth in that, you know?

Yeah, it's like the new age of church hopping. Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. Where I, I go to a certain church until the pastor says something that I disagree with, and I go find a new church. Now, it's, you know, I, I'll follow this guy on YouTube or whatever until they post a video that I don't agree with, and then I'll go find somebody else. Because, and it's even accelerated now because, I mean, with social, there's thousands of people out there that you can follow. And so it's just, yeah, it is funny how people get so, you know, riled up about those things. Where, and I think a good, a good question to ask myself at times, because I obviously having a, a platform like I have strong opinions about a lot of different things. And so I always ask myself before I get like really bothered or whatever, it's like, "Have I really asked this person why they believe what they believe before before I say, 'You're wrong'?" You know? Like, do, do you actually hear people out? Because sometimes they'll, they'll give you an explanation, and it's like, "Oh, I can see where you're coming from. Here's where I disagree." Versus, "I disagree with you. You disagree with me." And then we don't talk. And then we go off to the next person and we disagree with some more. And, and cause division.

Why do you think it's become so emotional?

I think that's because it's because that's what gets clicks, you know? I think at the end of the day, there has to be a level of responsibility with, um, you know, just like you look at a pastor that preaches every week and on the platform, there is a responsibility of how to lead and communication. And just because, I mean, something I have to be aware like, "Am I delivering this in a responsible way to people that are listening?" Um, and I think the same way for like, I know I could go home and write out 10 video ideas that would get the most views and most comments and whatever, and all of those 10 ideas, most likely are going to cause more division than anything else. So I think the, the thing is, we're wrestling right now with is the, the tradeoff of like, "I know this video has the potential to go viral. I know that this is going to stir the comments and get a lot more views." But it's like, "Well, what are you, but what are you sacrificing by doing that?" Are we going for clicks or are we going for edification and like the actual growth of the people that are watching us, you know?

As a content creator, I, I so I follow you online. I, I listen, make sure to follow Spencer. Um, I see all your posts, I see all of your, sometimes I'll even follow like your comment section. And then, um, I like how sometimes you will, on your stories, you'll post, um, you'll post stories that other people have posted and you're like, "There's one indication, there's one instance where you're, uh, you reposted something that somebody said and you disagreed with it, and you're like, 'Well, how can you entertain, you know, a healthy discussion or something like that if you have your comments off?'" And it was this pastor or something. And, and I'm thinking, "Oh man, that's, that's so true." I mean, like, you can't, you can't open discussion and then have your comments off. And like, it's just your points valid and that's it, and everybody has to listen to you.

Do you think as a content creator with a platform, when you have thousands of followers, should you be very vocal and outspoken and, you know, calling, you know, certain individuals out and saying, "Well, if you're talking about this, like I need to, as a content creator with a large platform, correct them and point that out?"

Yeah, I think, I mean, I wouldn't say it's an all-or-nothing type of question. I feel like every person is going to have their, the, the grace on themselves to have a specific type of platform and message. And, you know, what I do online is different than what Dega does online, although it's the same vein a lot of times. But people have different temperaments, and people follow me for different reasons than they follow you. And so I, I say all that because like, I make it a point sometimes that like, I don't want anybody to take themselves too seriously. I don't want to take myself too seriously. So sometimes, you know, I'll reply to comments on my videos and there's a, there's a note of sarcasm in it. And that's just because I, I want my, the people that are following me to to see like, "Hey, number one, this is all public." And in my opinion, if you're going to have a public platform, you have to be okay with public criticism. And, um, you know, obviously I'm not talking about my family, I'm not talking about my personal life. I'm talking about what I post online. I can't be upset if I post something super controversial and people are stirred up in my comments. Like, that's what I'm asking for, essentially. So I feel like, um, I don't think everybody should like respond to every single thing. I think right now what we're seeing a lot online is like a lot of, um, response culture where it's like stitching and tagging and all of that. I think that everybody has a different type of platform. And a lot of heavy, strong personalities that I see online, I always think to myself, "Okay, the world needs that person." Like, the Christian world needs that person. But we don't need everybody to be that person. Right? If that makes sense? Like, it's good for people to stir the waters a little bit and ruffle some feathers. I think that's healthy at times because I think it shakes people out of like the, the, the normal. But everybody can't be like that. And so, yeah, you know, I think it's healthy in some regards. But, um, again, it's like, "What are we, what's the point?" Like, is it edification? And I always, always try when I respond to something on my story or whatever, cuz I don't feel bad if, you know, if somebody is posting something publicly out there that I think that I don't agree with, that, you know, I'm not trying, I'm not shaming them. I'm just saying, "Hey, especially if our worlds collide too, like if a lot of people that I follow follow somebody else and they, they'll send me like, 'Hey, what do you think about this?'" I'll respond to it. And I'll either, I'll comment on their video or I'll post something on my story. But it's generally not, you know, especially if we're talking like brother to brother, brother to sister, like in the body of Christ, like I'm not going to bash you. I'm just saying, "Hey, I disagree. This is why." And, and I've watched you do that. And you're very respectful in the way you do that. I think there's a lot of class with the way you handle those disagreements. Because when I've seen you post and call certain things out, and there is a time to do that, and some of the things you call out, I look at and I go, "I'm glad he called that out. I didn't even know that was being said." And you do it in a very respectful, very loving way. And I noticed that even in how you address it, you're not attacking a person, you're addressing a point. And I love that you keep it basically centered on where it should be centered in terms of the discussion. And that you're not taking it to the extremes of like, you know, tearing someone down. Or I've seen others, you know, I call them heresy hunters. And I'm not the first to use that term. But, you know, it's like this, this self-righteous virtue signaling. This is not you. I'm describing, to be clear, I'm describing, but what I have, I'm talking about the opposite of what you do. The other end of the spectrum where, you know, in their minds, they got to get that. They're not trying to correct something, they're trying to get someone canceled. Yes. And it's almost like that's a victory. You know, a symbol of victory if they can get that ministry or that minister knocked off the platform, out of ministry, everyone turning on them, then they've won. And to me, you know, sometimes that's warranted. But for the most part, I've seen it as just very different perspectives on certain peripheral doctrines and methodology. Sure, you may not like it. But, but, you know, you're not, you're not being able to even present anything that's directly, uh, worth criticizing.

Uh, I remember years ago, we had, do you remember, Steve, when we filmed in at the Madison, not the Madison Building, the Summer Building? Mhm. And we filmed in the youth room. Yeah. Okay. We had a gentleman come into the, the studio, well, studio, it was a youth room with cameras that we had set up. And his name was Ruben Israel. Okay. And Ruben Israel is a street preacher. He probably still around today. He goes to all the major events, he does like, uh, conferences and so forth. And I, I love that kind of ministry. I think we need that. And I was asking him, what one of the biggest challenges is that he faces in ministry. And here's a gentleman who is not afraid to tell it like it is. I, I don't know much about him other than when I interviewed him, so I can't say I'm condoning everything today. So if you find something online that's way out there, you know, I didn't condone that. I'm just going based off of what I knew at the time. But from what I saw, he was, he was a legitimate, God-fearing, Jesus-loving man. He'd take his sign out telling people to repent. He'd preach on sin. He'd preach on hell, which is needed. And I asked him, "What's one of your biggest challenges?" He said, "Well, it's the friendly fire. It's other Christians coming against us, saying, 'We wouldn't do it that way, so you need to stop.'" Yeah. And, and I understand his point because I think that at the end of all things, the Lord is going to be able to tell that unrepentant sinner, he's going to be able to tell them, "I sent you the street preachers. I sent you the encouragers. I sent you the prophets. I sent you the healing ministries. I sent you the Spencer Nakamuras. I sent you all of these different varieties and types and expressions of ministry, and you still rejected the gospel." So, I, I don't think it's on us to judge God's servants. Again, there is a time to call it out, like in the instances where you do it. I felt it was very warranted. There's been times where I've called things out, um, and, you know, it's not a fun thing to do, but it's necessary for the sake of the body of Christ. But I think it's all in the reasons as to why. Because we were talking about this earlier, everybody is a heretic to someone. Whenever someone has me on their program, I always give them a warning. I say, "You're going to get two very strong reactions. You're going to get one side saying, 'Oh, we watch them and we love them, and thank you for having them. I and they, they say, 'We love this collab, two, two of the preachers we watch together.'" And then it said, "You're also going to get a bunch of people commenting, 'I cannot believe that you are having this guy. Do you know who he's associated with? Do you know what he's?'" And I'm thinking, "Okay, there's two extreme reactions." And there's nobody I can have on this podcast, anybody who sits in that chair, there are going to be some who say, "How could you do it?" And there's going to be others who will say, "Oh, we're so glad you did it." And so this is where we, as the body of Christ, have to come to this place of maturity in recognizing, yes, we agree on the fundamentals: the deity of Christ, His sinless perfection, His crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, the Word of God being infallible, literal, eternal, heaven and hell, the Trinity. These are fundamentals. And then there are the side issues that we so often bicker about. And that is what I've really appreciated about the way you come at things. It's a, it's a very balanced. You're very bold the way you comment, even on current events. You always point it back to the word, back to the word, back to, and you show your work. Here's how I drew that conclusion. And when people disagree with you, you're not shutting them down, you're discussing with them.

Now, sometimes I'll be honest, I'll just, you can tell when someone wants, yes, you can tell when people want a discussion and when people want attention. There's a difference between someone asking, asking genuinely a question, totally, or challenging it, versus someone who's commenting because they want to get online and show everybody how smart they think they are, and they want to win a debate with you, and they want to be the one to call it out because, you know, "Look at me, everyone, I'm so bold, look at what I'm doing." There's a difference between those. Uh, the, the, the former, I will discuss with. The latter, I'll just block because it's just a waste of energy. Um, so you have been very gracious even in the way you deal with those comments. I know sometimes there's a little comedic sarcasm, but, you know, you're, you're, I think your, your friends and your followers know you to know that that's just you trying to bring some levity to the situation. Um, but in terms of those discussions, has there ever been a moment where, you know, you make, make a stand and then you get some pushback from the comment section and you say, "Okay, let me go rework this and look back at the word?" Has there been something where maybe your mind has been changed?

I mean, I would say, well, kind of in that, in that realm, um, there's a time where, and I talk about, you know, my sarcastic comments, and a lot of times those come by people like you're saying, where I know like, "You're not trying to have a conversation, you're trying to take a dig." And, uh, but I was, I was, there was one video where I commented something pretty sarcastic, and more sarcastic than usual, um, and I had a friend of mine that actually, like, one of my best friends, and he called me up and he was like, "Hey, I saw that comment." And he goes, like, "I get it, but like, that's, that's not you." And it's a little bit, it was a little too far. And I just want you to know that. And I was like, "Oh, that's a good friend." It's a, and that's this is the point that, you know, and I want to make is like, and I was like, "Oh, absolutely." And I look back and I'm like, "Oh, you know what? You are right. Like, that kind of was a little bit too far." And, and in that regard, I hope that when I put out something that people disagree with, like, I get, I get some pushback from people like, "Hey, that's, I actually disagree with that, and here's why." Like, I want that because I want to grow, like, in my understanding of the word, in my relationship with the Lord. Like, I want growth. And if I'm, you know, 30 years old right now, I've been a believer for since I was 16, so 14 years. And so I'm like, I have, you know, I have so much to learn, so much to grow. So I would hope that people would say, "I disagree with you on this post, and here's why." Because that, how else are we supposed to grow? Especially, I think the hardest areas to grow in, the encounter podcast is brought to you in part by Numa streaming. It's about time the kingdom of God had its own streaming platform. Numa features preachers and teachers of the word, and best of all, Numa does not censor them for sharing biblical truth. Numa is growing fast and features creators like David Deer, Hernandez, Lotsof Chukk, Spencer Nakamura, and many other creators. You can watch Numa streaming for free using their website or one of their apps. Additionally, a portion of all Numa profits goes to supporting Christian Ministries. The future of Christian media is here. Start watching for free now by visiting streamnuma.com. That's spelled S-T-R-E-A-M-N-U-M-A.

I would hope that people would say, "I disagree with you on this post, and here's why." Because that, how else are we supposed to grow? Especially, I think the hardest areas to grow in, think are in ideologies and beliefs that we are so grounded in. And so it's like, not obviously talking about the fundamentals, like we're talking about in the foundation of our faith, but the open-handed issues. When I say something philosophically and someone disagrees, I want to know that because I want to hear another point of view. Um, I remember an old video I did, was, I had no idea. This is so funny. This is like way back, like probably three years ago, just when I was starting putting out videos. There's a quote, and, um, I was talking about how I disagreed with the quote. And I'll try, as we talk, I'll try to remember it. But in my comment section, someone pointed out that it was a quote from C.S. Lewis. Oh. And then I was sitting there and I read the comment and I looked it up and I was like, "No way did I just put out a video disagreeing with C.S. Lewis." Oh my God. So I went back and I like researched it. I actually took the video down.

Second-guess yourself real quick right there. Yeah. So, um, but yeah, I mean, do you remember what the quote was? I'll try and, it's like on the tip of my tongue. I'll try to remember it as we're talking. But yeah, I mean, there, there's times where I get comments on videos that, you know, people disagree. Or if I'm talking about an issue, like a cultural issue or news, something that happened, you know, maybe I don't know the full story, someone comments something and it, and it makes me say, "Okay," and I investigate a little bit more. So, um, I just think like, if I'm going to be somebody that gives critique in areas, like I can't be the person with my comments turned. That's like my number one pet peeve is when people have their comments turned off and they do something controversial because it, to me, it's just like, you are wanting to have your voice out there without any of the responsibility of backlash and, you know, the burden of people having legitimate questions. So I never want to be that guy. I never want to be somebody that I've elevated my voice and platform and nobody gets to say in what I get to speak on. And I think that's also important to have a covering.

How important is it? Because you're talking about your friend kind of correcting you. Yeah. Like that's something I feel like when I watch someone, these young evangelists or anyone online, I think, "Did they filter that through anyone before saying that?"

100%. How important is that in your life? To have like your inner circle, like, "Hey dude, that was a little rash."

I think it's so important. And I still stand by, like, everybody needs a pastor. Everybody needs somebody that they are accountable to. Because if you don't, you will, you'll just become a monster. And, um, so I'm accountable to my closest friends. And I, there's probably a handful of them that like, I trust them enough to where if they, they were to say something like, "Hey, you said this online or you posted this video, I don't think it was received well." I, I would not even be an ounce of defensive. I would, you know, it's a conversation, but I'd be like, "Oh, okay. I, you know, you know me enough and you're wise enough to know that." And also on on top of that, like I have, you know, I'm planted at a local church. Like I have a senior pastor. And if he ever is like, "Hey, this is not okay." Oh, all right. Like, I have somebody that I'm submitted to. And so I'm not the end all be all. And that, I think a lot of people are online. That's the thing is like, again, this age of social media, you can create a TikTok account, get 5 million followers, and not be accountable to any type of spiritual leadership, which is dangerous.

But I'm curious to know, cuz I'm sure you get approached a lot by churches, profit organizations, nonprofit organizations, and they approach you, they want you to speak at their event. Have there been instances where they tell you, "Hey, we really love what you do, but we want you to speak on this," and you're like, "Oh, I kind of disagree on you there. I got to push back on that."

Uh, there's not, um, no. No churches really, any church that I've spoken at, generally, and I'm, I'm like, I know my platform and I know that I'm controversial sometimes. So like, I have to have a degree of self-awareness. And so I'll be the one to ask, like, "What do you want me to speak on?" Like, and like, "Where, where's the boundaries and what do you, you know?" Um, but there was an organization that, um, I was, I, I'm trying to, I'm trying, he's trying to walk a fine line here. Say it. Um, they, I already know what he's talking about. I think they asked me to, they asked me to come out and be a, a guest of, um, kind of, uh, this past political season. And, um, I was talking to them and they basically were saying with the candidates that they're endorsing, like, "Hey, if you want, like, we want you to talk about biblical values, and we don't want you to say anything bad about a specific person." And so I told, and I said, "I said, 'Okay.'" And part of the segment was interviewing, right? So I said, I said, "Oh, I'm totally fine. I will 100% talk about biblical values." And I said, "But like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to lie, and I'm not going to cover up anything about a person and try and spin it a specific way. If I'm asked a, a blatant, straight-up question, 'Hey, do you, do you think that this person did this, and do you think that's a biblical value?' I would say no." You know? Like, I'm not going to do that. And so there's, there's been times, very minimal, that I think I'm not, it's not, they're not asking me to lie by any means, but I am, you know, I think I said this to you yesterday where I was like, "I am a Bible teacher that also is a fan of these different areas politically and I like culture and all this stuff." Like, but I'm a Bible teacher first. So like, I will never try and skew the word of God to fit any type of narrative in the world. Like, that's just not a healthy thing to do. Like, I'll always go back to the word of God. So my allegiance is to this. And so, I mean, it's never been blatantly like, "Hey, don't talk about this," or like, "Come, but don't speak in this way." I mean, maybe that will come up in the future. But again, it's just whether or not you're okay with that. My, I have a friend that went and spoke at this, uh, uh, this camp, and he's an AG guy. And he didn't realize that there was Baptists in the room. And, uh, he did, he wasn't aware. And right. And so he did this call to be filled with the Holy Spirit and baptism of the Holy Spirit. And like, like 75 people just got up and they just left. And so I think on some level, like, we have to be aware of like, "Hey, what kind of room am I speaking to here?" But, and it's never been, you know, crossing any lines or boundaries. I had a pastor years ago invite me to speak at his church. And he emails me and he says, and I forgot what the exact phrasing he used was, was something to the effect of, "I want you to come, I want you to preach, but I don't want any of that Dega stuff." And I said, "What? What are you, what are you talking about?" Says, "I don't want people falling over. I don't want people speaking in tongues. I don't want," he says, "Don't snap your fingers when you're praying." Cuz I'd get real, I'd pray like this. And, and I said, "Then you don't want me. Totally. You want a whole different version of me that doesn't exist." And so I told him respectfully, I, I can't do that. And he says, "Well," and his response was something to the effect of, "Well, I thought you'd be more humble. This is just pride." And I was like, and I had to take this back to some of my leaders. I'm like, "Is this pride in me? And I, or am I just standing by my principles?" And I realized, no, this isn't a matter of pride. It's a matter of principle. I cannot be ashamed of the work of the Holy Spirit. I cannot be ashamed of who I truly am in the Lord. And that's what I love also about the way you address these things. You're a Bible teacher first who, like you said, likes to address the issues in culture. And we need that. There's various different types of ministries. Like our ministry, I'm more very simple. I'm on the gospel, and then I talk about the Holy Spirit, prayer, spiritual warfare, for the most part. Yeah. You're a Bible teacher, but one of the areas I think you're really gifted at is the way you're able to communicate to this generation biblical perspective on current events. Yeah. And that, I think, you're almost like a master class in that. The way you handle it, from the creativity behind the production of what you're doing, to the way you articulate those points of views, to the way you make it interesting through storytelling, well, also making sure you're not compromising on the word. And that is one thing I really honor and respect about your ministry. Because there, there are many who pander to the culture in an attempt to be accepted. You don't do that. You don't budge. And that is what probably you mostly mean when you say you're controversial, in that you're controversial in the world's eyes, not necessarily the church. And so, um, are there any testimonies from that that you've seen where you went in on an issue, didn't hold back, and then maybe someone else on the other side of that was able to receive truth and have that deception broken off of their mind?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, um, you know, one story that I can think of in general is, uh, it, it's crazy because a lot of times when I'm talking about these issues, it's, it's yes, it's the people that disagree, but it's people that are like, "Oh, I didn't realize the Bible actually talks about that." Um, and one of the issues that's most frequent everywhere in our world is like the topic of abortion. Um, and I've had so many conversations with Christians and believers that are not sure what they believe on it, um, that they don't know why I have such a strong stand on it. And so I think one of the, one of the, um, the bad tactics that sometimes we have is we'll say things like, "The Word of God because the Bible says so." Don't, that's not okay. "Cuz the Bible says so." And while that's true, it's with these people that are really seeking answers and like they really want to know. They're like, you know, that doesn't mean a lot to them. Like, where, because I just saw this TikTok video of this girl that said, "It is okay in the Bible." And so I think what I do is I'll walk them through like, "What does scripture talk about?" Like, "Okay." And it boils down to a sense of logical thinking because at the end of the day, these young adults, these young people, they are very logical thinkers, and they don't, they want it to click in their mind. Like they want it to make sense to them. And here's the thing: it is going to make sense. Because if the Lord wired our brains, and wired our morality, and wired our logic and our thinking, that's the way He created us, then there has to be some level of connection there logically with these arguments, if God actually designed it that way. So, you know, I had a, a conversation with a girl in our young adult ministry, um, about this topic, and, you know, we, I go all the way back to like, "Okay, you know, let's take all the, again, let's take all the emotion out of it, right?" And, and we believe like the Bible says that God forms us in the womb, like He knew us before He created us. And so with that statement, we understand what that, like, the Lord knew us before we were, we were even conceived. So wouldn't that mean like, if there's an intention that God has for our life, then our life actually matters, right? When we're conceived? Cuz the Lord does, the Lord have a plan for us right when we're conceived? And she's like, "Yeah, I guess that does mean it. If He knew us before, means there's a plan." Okay, great. So if there's, if we're in the womb and God has a plan for us, and He knows exactly what's going to happen, then any type of termination at that point would be terminating something that the Lord has put forth in a life. And as we begin to have this conversation, I can start seeing those things click with her. Like, "Oh, I guess yeah, that does actually make sense." And so we, we go through that progression. And, you know, where she was kind of iffy on the subject before, she's like, "Oh, wow, that is, that is cool." But again, it's bringing her to a place where it, it actually makes sense to her. And, "Oh, I did make the connection that that is a life." And that, and these are all biblical topics that, my, the life matters, that God has a purpose for everybody, that He is the creator of the heavens and the earth and the universe. And so when He creates something, it's by His hand. So all of these things play into things that actually cause her to go from a place to like, "Oh, it's like abortion is just a topic that I'm talked about and I don't think about it much," to actually getting them to think about it logically. And then they come to that place. So I've had a lot of topic, or conversations, uh, revolving specifically around abortion because it's such a hot topic. And, um, it, it's not even me bringing it to them. It's, it's more so like they are curious about it. And I think that we can really turn the tables in these conversations if we stop, you know, yelling at people and actually realize that people have real questions and begin answering their questions. Frankly, I think a lot of times, you know, Christians miss the mark is because we're so insecure because we don't actually have the answer because we haven't actually thought about it ourselves, that we can't give an answer that that satisfies somebody. And so we, we dismiss it as, "Oh, how could you possibly? Just look it up. How could you possibly believe that that's okay? Just look it up. It's in the Bible. Like, go, you'll find it." Versus like, "No, have you actually investigated it yourself? And do you actually have the answers that people are looking for?" And I'm always like, "I'll be the first one to say, if somebody comes up to me, 'What do you think about this?'" And if I really don't know, I'm like, "You know what? Can you give me 24 hours? Can you give me 48 hours? And I'm going to, I'm going to look this up and I'm going to see what I think about it." Um, and I'll come back to you and we can have a conversation. Um, someone brought up, I forget what book it was, um, maybe something in Judges, and he's like, "Hey, this chap," and I could have, you know, at first the reaction is like, "I'm supposed to know this. Like, I'm a p, I'm supposed to know all the answers." But it's like, "No, stop yourself. Hey, actually, I don't even know what story you're talking about. Like, I have no idea. Let me go look it up. Let me like, do my research. And then we can talk in a couple days." And then we had a great conversation. Then the question that he had was answered. And so I think it all has to do with just like, have a humility, answer people's questions. Because again, hot topics, hot button issues are just that. I think because we've created it to be that in in the hysteria and the emotion and the one side versus the other, it's created this versus real conversations that we can have. So as opposed to saying that the Bible says something, show them where the Bible says it, and then why the application is therefore biblical. Like, not being satisfied with the 30-second answer, but like, "Hey, if you really, let's have a 10-minute conversation about this, and we can actually come to a place where we're either agreeing or we're agreeing to disagree." And, and maybe at the end of that conversation, she's like, "I still don't agree with you, and here's why." I'm like, "Okay, I think that you're wrong, but, you know, that I've laid out my argument and my belief for you." I just think that people are so impatient and they don't want to deal with it, so they just dismiss. And, "How can you possibly believe that? You're so ignorant and stupid, and I hope you find God." You know? It's like, that's not beneficial for anybody, right? As opposed to actually teaching the word. Yeah. Be being ready to give reason for the hope that is within them, being able to rightly divide the word, to explain the way, to explain the scriptures. I love the way you do it sequentially, biblically, logically, philosophically. Works well with atheism, doesn't it?

It does. Yes. And, um, atheism, atheists are, you know, I, I have conversations with them, not all the time, but, you know, generally, that's again, when I talk about it, you know, atheists are very emotional about it as well. Um, but again, I just think atheism is, I, I really don't think it's a, um, head issue. I think it's a heart issue. Because they, at the end of the day, it's not that it's not that people can't logically come to the place where, even you think that there's a possibility. And I always joke because when when an atheist tells me, there's like, "You're telling me that there's 100% certainty that God exists?" And I'll tell him, I said, "Listen, I see a scenario where God doesn't exist, and that's if we're all in some simulation." And like, I tell them that. Like, "If we're just in some like conspiracy theory simulation and all this is made up, sure." I go, "But besides that, like, my logic and my reasoning and everything that I've see points me to the fact that there has to be a God." And I, I say that as a joke, one, but also two, to put forward like, if I'm not willing to give any ground in this conversation, you won't be able to it either. So if, when I say like, "Well, I guess there's a hypothetical situation where they're wouldn't be a God." At the end of the day, I'm at least giving some ground in kind of like deescalate the conversation. So that now, now clarify that because what some might hear you saying right now is that you give ground in the sense that you're saying, "Oh yeah, you're right, there there is no God." But, but, but clarify what you mean by by giv

More so I'm giving a a ground, I would say, in the posture of my heart to say, "I am willing to have an honest conversation with you." That's the ground that I'm giving where I'm saying, "Hey, okay, I know I am, I am, I'm so certain about this, and you are so certain about this, but can we at least try here?" And that's that, that's the ground that I'm giving in terms of like, my heart posture is, I want to have an actual conversation with you, and I will hear you out if you hear me out.

Because a lot of times when I'm talking to atheists, they already know what they believe, and they, they go into the conversation.

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Because a lot of times when I'm talking to atheists, they already know what they believe, and they're there, they go into the conversation, say, knowing that there's no productivity that's going to come from it.

And so, and the reason that I say that is because whenever we get to a chance where I say, "Is there any realm, any possibility, any situation in this world that God is real?" and they tell me, "No," then I'm like, "This is, this is not a head, this is not a head issue for you, it's a heart issue for you, 'cause you don't want to believe it." Because there is evidence, and there is logic and reasoning behind it, but for you to say there is 0% certainty.

I saw this really great illustration that paints this better than I could, and it's this guy that has a piece of paper, and he draws a, a circle. And you guys might have seen this. So he draws this circle, and, uh, he's having an argument, and he gives the pen to the atheist and he says, "Okay, if in this circle is everything there is to know about the universe, about people, emotions, everything in this universe that we could possibly ever know of, how much do you know about it?"

And so he's like, and you know, he puts a dot, like, like just a tiny dot in this giant circle. And he goes, "Okay, so you're standing across from me, and you're saying there's no possible way God exists." And he's like, "That's right." And he goes, "But you just told me that of everything that there is to know, you only know this little speck." And he was like, "Yeah." And he goes, "So is there a possibility that in all of this crazy stuff, all of this universe, all the stuff that you don't know about, have never even considered, in that area, that there is a possibility that God exists, it just hasn't been revealed to you yet?"

And he kind of sits there and he's like, "Oh, I, I guess, I guess you're right." Like, "I guess that, that, that is a good point." And so when I, when I'm talking to atheists, we, we go through logic and we go through reasoning, and again, taking emotion out of it.

But I have a very hard time talking with them again, because they don't want to believe in God. So all of their, their reasoning is bent towards that way. Whereas I started as not a believer. So like, I, it's not like I was, people are like, "You're brainwashed." You know, like, "You, you, you're brainwashed from a child and church." I'm like, "I got saved when I was 16." Like, "There's no, I didn't get brainwashed." Like, "I came to this conclusion myself." So I think that, you know, when I talk to atheists, um, they just don't want to believe, a lot of times. And, and that's the biggest, you know, stumbling block there is to them. It's their heart.

It's refreshing to hear you talk about logic, because I think that categorically speaking, and I don't say this in a way that would be in any way divisive, but just in my observation, that within the body of Christ, there are two types of Christians. And at least for the sake of this conversation, and that is, on one side, there are Christians who are a little more emotional. And they look at logical as religious. Then there are Christians who are a little bit more logical, and they look at as they look at any expression of emotion as weird.

And I think that the Lord, his personality, his character, his nature, the Lord's nature and essence will contradict something in all of us. All of us need to adjust. All of us need to change in some way to better align ourselves with the character and the nature of Christ. So then the Christians who lean a little toward emotion, they're going to have a little trouble with things like doctrine and studying to show yourself approved and rightly dividing the word. And they may at times see that as a hindrance to the free flow of the spirit, as they would call it.

And then those believers who lean a little bit more on intellect, they're going to be challenged in things like the expression of the spiritual gifts, prophecy, manifestations of power. They're going to, they're going to be a little uncomfortable with that. Everyone needs to make those adjustments.

And so, especially, um, with the conversation of logic, there are many Christians who, when you use the word logic, they don't know exactly what you mean by that. We, we think logic just means the way we, we expect it to be, or maybe man's perspective. But logic derives from the nature of God. Yeah, logic derives from order. Logic, the word is that basis of logic. So when we talk about logic, we're talking about order. We're talking about predictability. We're talking about spiritual laws, moral laws, physical laws, principles that are guiding and objective.

So, for example, I hear Christians often remark, they say things like, "Well, miracles are illogical." And I get what they mean by that, totally. But I think that's to misunderstand the definition of logic. No, in fact, miracles are the logical conclusion of the existence of God. Catherine Coleman said it best when she said, "I believe in miracles because I believe in God." Yes. In that, if you grant the premise that God exists, and he certainly does, then by definition, his interaction with humanity is miraculous. It is of the nature of supernatural.

And so when you have a miracle, it may be impossible for us, difficult for us, it may violate the laws of physics, it may violate the laws of time, it may violate what we would deem as something that's probable or something that should happen, but it does not violate the law of logic, which is that God exists. So then, if God exists, and he does, he should be able to bend the laws of physics. He should be able to control and manipulate time. He should be able to heal the sick and cast out devils and raise the dead. So, so miracles are actually the logical conclusion of the existence of God.

So when we talk about logic, we're talking about a sequence of thinking based on order, not necessarily just man's preferences and perspectives.

Yeah, it, it's totally like you said, best. And I think that people do struggle with that relationship a lot of times, where they're on the side of, you know, "Well, science, logic, understanding the world in that regard." And then they have a struggle with the spiritual aspects of the Holy Spirit wanting to do something. And I talked to a lot of people, and I, I said, "One of my wrestles was like with this idea of of structure." Because we know scripture. I'll look it up. It's in 1 Corinthians, I forget what chapter, but it says, "God is a God of order and not of chaos." Yes.

God is a God of order and not chaos. So like, God likes order. God establishes order. We see it in the way that he made the universe. We made in the world. We see it in the way that Paul writes to the church and the church structure in it. Um, he likes order. And, and I, you know, I get flack sometimes for saying this, but like, I think that we have misunderstood when we say that religion is bad. Like, there's a lot of people that say, "Religion is bad. Religion is bad." I think what we've, what man created out of religion is bad. And I think what man, like, has, um, formed religion to be is bad.

But I think religion in itself is, when we talk about it, um, I explain it in the same idea of my relationship with my wife, Adrian, where there is structure, there are rules, there's an agreement, boundaries, boundaries, what you can do, what you can't do. On Mondays, there's a scheduled date night. And whenever I explain this to somebody, I go, "Me making these boundaries, understanding what's expected of me, fulfilling my role in it, and scheduling out date days to make sure I have time, that's not me not loving my wife. That's me being intentional with loving my wife."

Now, where can the marriage turn? The marriage can turn to where I neglect her. I don't think about her. But, you know, everything's still on the schedule. So we'll go, and we'll go on a date night on Monday, like it's always scheduled, and we'll be on our phone the whole time, not talking to each other. And, you know, I, I, I'm not being adulterous, I'm not cheating on her, but I'm not, like, respecting her. And I become, I begin worshiping the rules that I set in place with my wife, thinking that I'm a really great husband because I don't do this, because we go on a date night. All the while, I'm completely neglecting her.

And I describe religion like that, whereas the original intent wasn't bad. It's just that we can't do it. That's why we needed Jesus. Like, we cannot fulfill this. And we begin worshiping idols and other things. So, like, what happens is people get so obsessed with this whole "religion is bad" and then they all of a sudden think that no structure is necessary. That's why people say, "Well, I don't need the local church." "Well, I don't need community." You know, "I don't have, I don't need these rules to govern me because my relationship with the Lord is so personal." And yes, it is personal, but it all still falls under the umbrella of how he established the relationship to be.

Because any relationship has all of these things that a lot of people would label as religion, that actually helps us in having a healthy relationship with the Lord. So sometimes when we use the word religion, we're talking about legalism, which is man's attempt to do what only God can. And other times, like in the Book of James, when we talk about religion, we're talking about the structure by which God has implemented certain ordinances and demands for us to carry out.

And I like that you make the distinction, because I think that's part of the having a healthy conversation is defining those terms. What one person means when they use the word religion, different could mean something different. Which is why you have to be careful. Even like Paul the Apostle, when he wrote about the flesh, in some instances, that word flesh is talking about the physical body. In other instances, he's talking about the sin nature.

But there's nothing that God does outside of order. You have a physical body, which is consisting of various different systems: the skeletal system, nervous system, muscular system. You live in an ecosystem, which hangs in a solar system. And everything that God has spoken into existence is created based on systems. The church is no different. And without, without structure, without order, there really is, is, is no basis for anything. And God is that ultimate standard by which we compare all things, thus giving us that order. And it all derives from his nature.

And many Christians don't realize that everything in your being was created to respond to God. Yes, your emotions were designed to respond to him. Your intellect. I like to say that, uh, revelation is knowledge set on fire by the Holy Spirit. And that intellect is meant to respond. The physical being is meant to respond to him. Everything is meant to be in that order with God.

And I love that distinction you, you drew between the bad religion, that terminology, versus the biblical religion, which is simply God's order.

It's even like Romans, you know, Romans 1 talks about the invisible qualities of God. And how do you, how do you come to a knowledge of God? Just by what he created. It's from logic. And it's from people that don't have access to, you know, scripture, that look at the sky and the sunsets and the sunrises and the mountains and the ocean. They're like, "Whoa, there, there has to be some type of Creator in this." That's like what the invisible, some of the invisible qualities of the Lord through his creation. It draws us. And that's logic thinking. It's logical.

That's why I always tell an atheist, like, "It's logical to stand at the edge of the Pacific Ocean and look out and be like, 'This is insane. This is crazy. This is beautiful.' Like, beyond imagination. How could this be by accident?" That is a logical thought. It's not logical to say, "Ah, yeah, this, this all happened with a giant oops." You know, like, that's not a logical thought. The logical thought is, "Man, somebody has to be responsible for this because of how grand it is."

And I think that's why your content and Pastor David's content is so palatable to like, this generation. 'Cause you walk them through that. Like, I grew up old school. My dad, do this, no questions asked. And I feel like this generation, Gen Z and Millennials, were kind of built on that, "Well, what does that mean? Where does that lead this? Or where does this go? Why do they do this this way?" And I think that's why your guys' content is so powerful is because you walk them through, and it's, it's almost as you're inviting them. It's not, "Hey, this is what it means." It's like, "I invite you to try to understand this." And if you don't want to receive it, hey, that's, yeah.

That's something I battled with too, is, I felt like the Lord has given me the ability to kind of detach myself a little bit from the results, you know? Because I think a lot of times we feel guilty if we invite a stranger at the grocery store or at the church, and they tell us like, "Get lost. I don't want you." You know, it's like, "Oh, I didn't do my job right." But I think at the end of the day, the Lord calls us to be faithful in what he's called us to do, and it's his job to work on the heart, and it's his job to actually make a change in somebody.

So, you know, with these things, and just like you're saying, there's, there's definitely conversations I've had where at the end of it, they're like, "Well, I, I disagree and you're wrong." And it's easy to get discouraged by that. But I'm, I'm faithful to teach what I feel like, you know, the Lord is calling me to speak on, which is the word and, and the truth of it. And I let all the other stuff, the Lord will work in that. And maybe that's a seed that eventually gets watered years down the road, and, you know, they're having a crisis moment and they think about this conversation that they had a couple years ago.

Um, all of that, it, it, it matters. And so with this stuff, I think I don't see, especially with, you know, we're talking about logic and atheists and debates and all that, I, I see barely any tangible fruit in front of me when I have these conversations. And it's like, well, basically 99% of the time, it's, "Let's agree to disagree." And that can be super discouraging. But I know I'm speaking truth, and the Lord can do whatever he wants in that. It's not my job to know what that is. Eventually, I'm curious to know.

So when it comes to your content creation, what, what is like the filter method you use to go, "All right, I need to speak on this"? Is it mainly, "Oh, it's a hot topic issue, I need to address it"? Or is it like, "Oh, this is something I'm passionate about, let me talk about it and correct them"? Or what? So be, yeah.

I try, in anytime I, I want to talk about a specific issue, I generally stop myself and I, I kind of, what we were talking about before, I try to ask myself the question, "Am I posting this or am I talking about this because I know that is going to get a lot of views?" And that's like my first heart check. And so if the answer is yes, then I kind of pull back. But the, the filter that I usually do is, a lot of times things get sent to me. So if something, if the same article or the same idea or new story gets sent to me time and time again, then it's like, "Okay, you know, people that are following me are actually wondering about this topic." Others, it's, you know, something that I'm seeing repetitively.

But I always ask myself the question, "Okay, number one, C, is there something that I actually feel like isn't getting discussed in this topic?" 'Cause I, the last thing I want to be is a parrot on social media. And like, you, we've all experienced it where you're scrolling through and something happened, and it's like, "Same message, same message, saying the same thing, saying the same thing." Every current event, I always tell these guys, I say, "Here come the posts." Yeah.

And, and, you know, if people want to have their platform on that, that's totally fine. That's just not what my, I don't want my message to be that. So I want to make sure nothing that I'm saying is something that somebody more, like, more intelligent than me or or better, like, making content has already said. 'Cause if it is, then I'll just point people to that, "Hey, why don't you go watch this video?"

Um, so if there's a truth in there that hasn't been discussed, a point of view that I feel like is relevant, that I'm like, "Why is nobody talking about this?" That's generally what leads me to make that content for it. Because I know at the end of the day, I, I post and I make content because there's people that have followed me because they like what I post and what I talk about. So I just want to be really integrous and consistent with that. And that does cause me to not post about a lot of things because I'm just, you know, either I just feel like the whole thing is just a mess and it's like, "H, this is just gross," and anybody that's talking about it isn't going to be beneficial. Or maybe there's just something about it that I just don't, you know, I, I don't have any additional insight that I can offer. And so I'm like, "Well, why would I post something that everybody else is posting?"

There's a filter I like to apply first. I pray and say, "Lord, what is it you want to speak? How, how, what direction are you leading?" Now, I don't necessarily think that, you know, the sky is going to split open and the Lord's going to say, "Here's the sermon outline, here to declare." I'm not like Moses or anything. But, you know, generally, there's this, this guidance that you receive on kind of where you're going. And if, for that week, I'm not really picking up on something, what, what I will do is I will go to the audience and I'll say, "What are some things you want to learn on?"

And, and, and, and the interesting or the funny thing is, every time I post, "What are some things you'd like me to teach? What are some things you'd like me to cover?" There's always that one or two, uh, those one or two comments from those, from, you know, they think it's like a real, uh, insightful thought. They're sharing, "Well, you shouldn't be posting this. You should ask the Lord what he wants you to speak." And thinking, "Well, I get that, and I understand that. But at the same time, we have a responsibility to feed the sheep. And we have a responsibility to help them to grow." And sometimes understanding where they are in their spiritual walk with the Lord will help you to know what to equip them with. Yes.

So first, you go to the Lord. And if the Lord is guiding you another way, that is to go to the audience. Sometimes he does leave me, "Ask and see what the needs are." That's what I'll do. Maybe that's one of the ways that God speaks. And so it is important that we identify the need. And, and I like what you said earlier, is this just for entertainment, or I'm actually trying to build people up? And I think that's the question you have to ask.

Okay, is this from the Lord? Number one. And obviously, it has to be based on the word. And then number two, is this going to be beneficial to help correct, or encourage, or to uplift, or to inspire God's people? And most of the time, the Lord will give that direction. But maybe one, one or two times out of 10, it'll be, "Hey, where are you at in your spiritual journey?"

It's, uh, what something that you said that made me laugh because I thought of a story. Is the people that comment, like, "Well, you should, you should be more spirit-led. Like, you should ask the Lord, um, about what you should be talking about." And, um, it reminded me of this, this story I was having with one of our young adults. And, you know, we, we talking about the emphasis of evangelism. And, and they asked me a question. They're like, "Okay, I, I was at the grocery store. And, um, there's a person that was in the same aisle as me. And I just, I, I was thinking about telling them about the Lord, maybe inviting them to church." And they said, "But I didn't know if that was, if that was just me, or I didn't know if that was the Lord."

And I looked at him and I started laughing. I was like, "You know, at the end of the day, I don't think that's something that you have to ask, ask God about. Like, telling somebody about Jesus isn't something that you have to wonder, 'Is this from God or is it from me?'" 'Cause if, if we really believe in sanctification and growing more in the image of Christ every single day, that means that eventually, what's the goal? That our will will align with the Lord's will. And so that means some things that we want are going to be things that the Lord wants.

And so, you know, it's like, sometimes we, we get in our head about, "Well, I don't know if that's God or if it's me." And I'll always say, "Even if it is you, if it's a good, godly thing, then I, I don't think that, I think it's still a good thing to do." Like evangelism, like inviting people to church. And so even in the regards to content creation, it's like, "Does it build the body? Does it help people? Yes? Okay, well, then that means that that is being spirit-led because you are, you are being led by the spirit to grow into the image of Jesus, to mature your faith, so that you can have the discernment to say, 'This is going to help the body.'" And do it in confidence, knowing that that is being spirit-led.

You know, spirit being spirit-led isn't necessarily, at times, it can be a whisper, a prompting, you know? But all the time, it isn't, like you said, going to be heaven parting the clouds and a voice. It's going to be the gut reaction that happens because I'm growing so close with the Lord that I know that this needs to be said. That inner witness, like a, like a, like a pull. And it's like, you said, it's not necessarily a whisper or or prompting in my mind or in my emotions. There's just this, it, it's, it's like trying to explain sight to a man born blind. Yeah. It's, it's an intangible spirit sense. It's a whole different sense.

And so sometimes I see an article or something, and there's just something that is like, "Oh, yeah, I," and then there's a, a thought, a different point of view that just, I think about instantly. And it's like, "Okay, this is going to be good for my followers. This is going to build up people. It's going to encourage." So I know in confidence that I can post about that because it's going to be helpful.

Prior to being a content creator or youth pastor, did you ever think about, "Oh, I'd be really good at, you know, being a teacher or a professor, or being into getting in the political field?" No. I, that, zero. Zero times in my life have I thought to be a teacher or a professor. Um, I don't know why. I just. Order the political world. What, what did you want to be? Ah, I don't, honestly. My dad, uh, he's like worked in corporate business his entire life. So I always just assumed I, I would. You know, it sounds bad, but I'm not like that futuristic of a thinker, especially from a kid. Like, I didn't think of what I wanted to be when I grew up. I just kind of like lived and had my friends and, you know, week to week.

So it's so funny, 'cause I got saved at 16. And if you were to ask me then, you know, the journey probably was, I live in, uh, the Seattle area. The journey was probably to go to University of Washington, go try and get into business school, and then figure it out from there. Like, there was no real, you know, picture of what I wanted. Um, but obviously, all that changed when I got saved. And I fell a pull to ministry. But, uh, yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't know. Even like, I guess it's, it's funny, 'cause even now, I wouldn't, I don't call myself. I guess I get did in this podcast, so a Bible teacher, but like, I don't think of myself as a teacher, um, necessarily, even though people would say that I am. Um, I just more so think of myself as just a, I don't even, I don't even know, like, a, a man who loves Jesus who likes explaining things. I, I don't think I'm qualified enough to be a teacher. And I feel like there's so much more in this that I don't know. And I think that that, that's probably going to persist forever.

But I disagree with that. I think you're, you're really good. To back what David's been saying on the podcast, you do a great job at, you know, explaining the word of God. You had a video go viral where you talk about a story where you're getting ice cream and your dad gives you one scoop or something, but you didn't ask for two and you got upset or whatever. And you do a great job explaining Matthew 7:7. And I go, "Man, this, I'm like, 'Oh, when I watch that video, I'm like, 'Oh, that's a great way of putting it.''" And I go, "Oh, man."

So any body that's into content creation, do you think anybody that goes into it is called, or is it just, "I just do it because I like it"?

I think there's definitely specific calls. And I think you can identify, a lot of times, you can identify a call just on the grace that's on somebody's life for it. And that grace doesn't necessarily mean followers or, you know, influence or anything like that. I just think that sometimes when you look at somebody that's doing what the Lord has called them to do, again, it's like, I can't even explain it in tangible. It's like this intangible, like, "This makes sense, right? Like, you are doing what you're called to do." Yes.

I, I totally see that. Um, and so I think anybody can, uh, go online and, and start posting and, and doing that whole thing. I, you know, I would say it's definitely, uh, there's a lot of, you know, I don't know if danger is the right word. There's a lot of risk involved with because pride is just the sin of everybody. And I think that if the Lord hasn't graced you for a specific role, uh, I tell this to people that want to be a pastor or work at a church all the time. I tell them like, "Hey, there is a specific grace on people's lives to be working at a church. And if your life isn't graced in that way, you will end up bitter and frustrated and hating, like thinking the establishment is wrong." And I've seen, because I've seen it time and time again, by people that want to have influence or notoriety. So they go work at a church where I'm like, "Okay, but if this isn't what the Lord has called you to do, like, you're, you're not going to be happy."

So I think that people can, I just think that there's a danger in it where I was just talking to Stephen, where he has a video that's going to have a million views for the first time on YouTube. Right? Insane. And I asked him, I said, "How does it feel?" And he goes, "I don't really feel anything." And I, and I told him, "That's the right feeling. Like, that is the correct feeling. Like, this doesn't drive, like, views don't drive me. Like, uh, influence doesn't drive me. I, I really don't care about it at all. I just feel like the Lord has called me to go on this route."

And so I think the, the danger is, you have a lot of people out there that want influence and want clout and fame. And so because of that, that's why they're doing it. They're going to get frustrated and burnt out.

Well, speaking of Stephen and that video, I'm happy to report that as I sit here, it's crossed over the million. Yeah. He starts crying. Cool. 1 million 29. Wow. So 1 million 29 people. When you really think about it, that's insane. A million people have watched that video. And I was telling him earlier today, that means that it's been played in workplaces and classrooms and churches. Some probably play his content, uh, when they're in the lobby before service.

But on that note, I think Steve's a great example of this because you're talking about those dynamics of some people doing it because they're called, others doing it just maybe because they want to or they're good at it, or maybe a combination of all three. So Steve is an example of a pure gift who reluctantly accepted a platform as opposed to someone who sought a platform even though they didn't have a pure gift.

Yes. I mean, it took like a year and a half, two years to get him to come on board full time. And he, he said, "But I don't, I don't want, I don't care if anybody knows my name. I don't, I don't really want to be in front of big crowds." He says, "I just like to worship." And I said, "That's the gift of the body of Christ that needs to be out there." And that's what they can sense when they watch his content is that it's this pure, beautiful expression of a heart for the Lord that invites others to come and worship alongside of him.

And I've seen people approach him in public or people come up to him, and he's very gracious with people. Others, I could, I've seen it go to their heads where they think, you know, "Don't even, don't even talk to me. I'm better than you." But Steve has stood humble. He's still himself. He's still a family man. He's still a good friend to all of us. Steve is still Steve. He loves the Lord, and he just so happens to have his gift, uh, spreading around all over the world. And a million people, my goodness, a million people.

And the, the combination was "As the Deer" and "I Surrender All." Was the song. Spencer Knack, that's your, that's your Instagram handle. Yes. Spencer N. And they can find you on Instagram. Lots of great content, my friend. Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me. Thank you for enjoying this podcast. And until next time, remember, nothing is impossible with God.