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T minus 30 seconds. [music] T minus 20 seconds. [music] >> 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Z >> [music] >> Trap Talk Reptile Network. Coolest Reptile Network in the world. Episode 716. Beautiful Tuesday. Beautiful all in the tree Tuesday with Chris Appan tapping in from Indonesia. Weird time that we're starting because he's from Indonesia right now. So you guys are in for a treat, man. Listen, hot topic. Farmra condos, we're going to hear all about it because my man is really tapped in over there. And yes, I'm your boy MJ. This is your first time listening or watching this episode, please hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, hit that notification bell, select all. You'll be remembering every single episode out of the building. BILLSTEAGLE DOES IT AGAIN. JESUS. >> Good job, Bill. Good job. >> Been a good Been a good week, boys. >> Hey, hey, hey. Just the mayor doing mayor things. That's all that is, buddy. That's right. You know what I'm saying? >> Just uh Wow. Super blessed. What can I say? I mean, what a what a way to end the year. >> [ __ ] [ __ ] a right. I mean, tell me what you were just telling uh tell everyone what you were just telling me as far as what you're looking at in your racks now. Like, you know, the fact you got this many in December. Not not not typical for you. >> Well, this time of year, the racks the the hatchling rack should be empty. >> Yeah. But I've got the 20 that hatched today and and establishing that uh flu clutch of 13. So, wow. >> 30 plus still in the hatchling rack now, which is it's a nice problem to have. I'll just leave it at that. >> 20 for 21, buddy. That's pretty awesome. I would be really happy with that uh with the clutch uh outcome of like this. >> Yeah. And you know what? I went back I went back to doing just the old school way of incubating these. >> Wow. Look at that. >> 875 straight bait. No temperature drops at the end. Um, >> you see that one, Marshall? Look at that one right there. Look. >> The one in the Yeah, that one and the one next to it to the right. >> Look at that one. Bill, come on. Talk to me, Bill. What the [ __ ] dude? >> I mean, this is what Freight Train does. [laughter] >> Those are nuts right there. Those are >> And there's one more. There's one more to the left, too. >> There. There's about There's about six or seven of them that are just, >> you know, very very dark, near patternless. >> Some of them have what pattern they do have is all black. >> Yeah. Right there. >> Um, >> dude. >> Yeah. It's just what Freight Train does, you know? He's just what a what a beast. His third clutch to to sire in 2025. um outback and outback and pathogen both yielded mid- teen uh neos and then this this clutch of 20. I think that's probably one of the biggest clutches I've ever had. I think I had >> I think I had one one other that maybe hatched 20 or 21. Um but this is >> Oh my god. I just can't get over that. Look at that. [laughter] I just can't, bro. That's a dream right there. Yeah, that's a that's a crazy one. Um there's some other crazy ones in there. Um >> quite a few from what I can see. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can't uh probably get them separated on Friday. Um have a better look at them. But from what I can tell so far, they all perched. Every single one of them uh is perched, which is a good sign. Um so, just uh now it now we just go dayto day with once they shed in the feeding trials. >> Yeah. So, you didn't drop you didn't drop the temps the last week at all? >> No, not at all. Just uh this this one was very interesting. I had a um I had a Neo that I think piped the earliest that I've ever had one pip. He pipped on day 44. Um and then I didn't have any others pip until day 47 >> and then I had a couple more pip day 48 and the rest pipped on day 49. I I pipped I artificially pipped one on day 49. There was one one egg that hadn't pipped yet. Um so I pipped it and that one ended up coming out and it was fine. Um but day 44 is pretty early. >> Yeah, >> pretty early. >> You know, it's not shocking like we hear so many weird things happening when it comes to breeding and hatching out things. You're think every now and again you'll get something funky like that. You would say like a one-off like >> Yeah. I mean, there, >> you know, my my normal practice is to usually wait 24 hours and pip the rest of the clutch, but there's no way I was going to pip on day 45. >> Yeah. >> Pythons. [laughter] >> So, what was the range? 44 to 49? >> 44 to 49. >> For them to self pip or for them to come out? [laughter] >> Every single one by day 49 it pipped itself except for one. >> Wow. >> I pipped one on day 49, but the rest itself pipped. Well, >> pretty much uh you know, pretty much the way you want to see it go down. You know, I >> I don't like to artificially pip. I I love to see that little slit that they make themselves. >> Um >> Yeah. >> I do I am a I mean, I am a pipper. No doubt about it. I know all you guys are, too. When you think the time is appropriate, you just sometimes don't know when that time is. >> Yeah. But nothing's better than just walking out and just seeing them all doing it on their own. Like that's that's Absolutely. See that slit? >> You know, you always worry about the ones that even the ones that self pip, you know, they crawl >> halfway out or 25% of the way out and then they die. Um I certainly had that happen this year, but not in this clutch. >> Not in this one. >> [ __ ] a dude. Um and Bill, real quick before we get to Marshall, um you you got stuff about to be paired up again here pretty shortly if >> I'm already pairing I'm already pairing stuff up. I've got uh four four pairings have already locked if [clears throat] include the one up at Buddy's Buddy's uh you know Buddy start to pair in a couple of months before I do. But the female up there's already ovulated, had a nice ovulation. So, it's definitely going to be uh 2026 is going to be a certainly isn't going to compare to 2024 and 2025 um production wise. Uh just because I need to rest some girls and and I just need a little I need a little air, you know, need need a little break. So, it's going to be a it's going to be a smaller 2026 year, which is perfectly fine with me. >> More power to the mayor, dude. [ __ ] >> I appreciate all y'all support and [clears throat] [cough] you know we've been so lucky and blessed uh in in all of this especially this year. Um but uh just uh kind of a dream come true and I I look forward to you guys and everybody in the chat and everybody that follows this podcast, you know, I wish them to have the same the same success and the same and the same luck that I've had. just it just takes time and and perseverance and you know just being patient and you know I'm I'm not doing anything magical over here. I'm doing all the things that we discuss every week. I don't have any secret sauce. You know I'm not doing anything that everybody in this that follows this podcast um knows. So it's not rocket science. Just be persistent, be consistent and uh you know good things will happen. Yeah, it's easy. [laughter] >> It's not easy. Um, it certainly is a lot easier when you have a lot of um, you know, you have a lot of time on your side like I've had over the last decade or two. Um, that makes it easier. Certainly isn't easy. Um, the fact that, you know, I'm just here and have the ability and the blessing to be able to do it full-time makes it a lot easier. No. >> Yeah, man. >> Listen, some people are on the See, some people are just put on this earth to breed condro and you're one of those people, Bill. This is just chalk it up to that, right? >> Well, like I said, it's uh it's not all on me. It's a lot of this is the community. And I say people like Marshall who were my mentors and people that I aspired to be like when I was young and went behind the ears. Um, these guys have taught me so much and I'm just so happy to be be a part of this podcast because I think we help, you know, a lot of people and and give, you know, a lot of people encouragement and show them that it can be done and this is how you do it and um, you know, before a lot of uh, downfalls with social media and podcasts and all that, whatever you want to say, but I think this has been so easy to share information um, you It's just been a great platform to share information. >> Yeah, man. Couldn't agree more. And uh Marshall, I know you have a female that's in the rack right now getting ready to lay. I mean, she's on the same exact day as my girl. We're on the same page. >> Yeah. Um but other than that, anything else looking promising right now or what's what's currently happening? >> I'm gonna start I'm going to start pairing stuff back up again this weekend. try I got I brought uh the male I was talking about on the last show from uh Brian Susan. I got him in the room finally. So >> gonna try him with somebody uh >> try him with a female that has um was not receptive to the to the male that I put in there with her who who was the male she bred with last year. But um so I'm going to try him on a couple of them and see if that does anything. Plus the weather's cooled off quite a bit. It's been about a month since I've had anything together. So, um, you know, when they would when when they would run away from each other. Uh, so think, you know, a month of cooler weather since then and, um, steady feeding. So, we'll see. Giving it a try here, uh, in the next next couple days. Repairing. >> Yep. TBD, man. 2026 going to be interesting. Um, >> so, so is your female that you've got, you're expecting she's on the same, was it the same exact day ovulation? I think it was close. Yeah, I think no, same day pre-lay shed because yours was the fifth, right? Yeah, >> she was the third. >> Oh, my bad. So, I think it was the same day ovulation then. Um, but yeah, anyways, cuz she's she's on day 42 ovulate. Post post ovulation. What day is your girl? >> Okay. >> She's around that same day. >> I I track it from the shed. So, I don't know. >> I do both, but I've just seen more accurate. It's from the ovulation, not the shed, from what I from what I've noticed. But I I I would agree with that. And uh sometimes they don't have that shed. >> It's nice to have that have the ovulation, you know, a succinct ovulation date. But I agree with you, MJ. I think the the ovulation date is more accurate than the post ovulation shed. But having said that, they can be all over the board with the ovulation. I mean, God, I've had I had one this year. I can't even remember. What did we say? It went 61 days post ovulation or something like Crazy. That's nuts. >> Just super super crazy outlier. >> Wow. Yeah. Well, listen guys, we have a special guest tonight, Chris Appan. Okay. Uh he has his own podcast on Saturdays. I'm sorry. No. Yeah. Saturdays bi-weekly. Um you know, mainly talking well, everything Indonesia, what he's got going on over there. Primarily monitors, but you know, I you know, if you follow him, um rare reptiles and paceasi, he has Kofi yellow cowies, Jaipur, I believe. I'll confirm all this, but he has some really [ __ ] nice out of the wild animals. Um, or maybe they were already there when he got there. He could maybe clarify that, but has some insane projects that I feel like we're not lucky enough to have currently. Um, and that's kind of like the thing with Indonesia, right? Like they got their hands on [ __ ] that we'll probably never get to see. You know what I mean? Um, only because they they do like to keep the best stuff, but some of that stuff just doesn't come over here. But >> and it seems like it's getting harder >> to get stuff over here. And maybe Chris can address that. Um whether it's production wise or regul regulatory wise or just seems like there's less uh less stuff coming in over the last five years or so. So I I love these episodes, man. I when we have the Australian guys on, >> I love that. >> And uh boy, you know, when we have the people that >> he's keeping a lot of this stuff outside, too, right? >> Everything's out. Oh, he has indoor stuff, too. He has both. But I mean, from what I've seen videos um of the condos, they're outside. But I mean, again, we'll we'll he'll break all this stuff down for us tonight. >> Yeah. >> And also too, one thing that we're going to kind of kick things off um which was a hot topic last week was because Chris was in charge of sending a big shipment of condos that went to Canada. And when they finally went from the uh middle person who received them and then shipped to that next person, they all they all eventually had came down with Naido. Um, so it was a big stir like it was like, dude, what what was happening and stuff like that. So he's had quite the last two weeks, but coming down to figuring out what's happening, we're going to hear what his protocol is now and what he's doing to move forward. Um, so at the end of the day, dude, this is going to be impactful, very informational uh, podcast and I'm ready to get going. You guys ready to bring Chris on or what? >> I can't wait for this one. >> All right, man. >> Let's go. >> All right, let's go. You guys are in for A TREAT. DO WHAT YOU GOT TO DO TO GET YOUR MIND RIGHT AND DO WHAT YOU got to do to stay hydrated because it's definitely hot in Indonesia and humid. That's a fact. Episode 716 on the tree Tuesday. Chris Applin, rare reptiles and Christasi. Hope I'm saying that right. >> Good. >> You ready for do more in the future? Trap Talk podcastes. >> Yes. >> Only only Trap Talk exclusive. >> Exclusive only. >> So stop calling us. [laughter] Get the pop when I come up with the love it or not. I'm hot from the spot. [music] Get the pop when I come up the spot. Get the club when I come up the spot. [music] Get the club when I come up the spot. Get the club when I come up. Everybody, [music] we do it. Everybody, we do it. [music] Do it. Do [music] it. [music] Do it. >> [music] >> Get the club when I come up with the spot. Get the club when I come up with the spot. [music] Get the club. And we're live. Episode 716. What's up, Chris? How's it going, guys? Nice to uh finally meet you uh Bill and Marshall. >> Hey, Chris. Good to meet you. Good to meet you as well. What time is it over there in Indonesia? >> Uh just coming up to quart to 8 now, 8 in the morning, but the next day. So, I'm coming from the future. So, uh [laughter] tell you how tomorrow is going to be. >> Yeah. >> Excellent. >> Yeah. And so, Chris, you know, real quick, why don't you say for the record on this Tuesday, you know, you've been living in Indonesia for how now? How long now? because you're from UK, you're from the UK. Um, and obviously you got this opportunity. So, kind of explain that if you don't mind. >> Yeah, I think that's a really long story that I've gone through a few times. I don't want to bore everyone with it again. But I've been here for 18 months now. So, I come uh in it'll be two years in May. Um, basically I was doing really well with the the tree monitors uh in the UK and I was traveling to Indonesia a lot to go and you know study them in the wild, take photos in the wild. Um, Peter Falcham um had been part of the farm. this farm has been established for 30 years. Um he seen that I was going coming over here basically so often it's a place that he'd been before. Um and he said well why don't you go to the farm and and see what's going on there. Oh my god that's an amazing opportunity just to visit a farm has been you know I think uh uh was listened to you and forest before MJ and you know he came over with Brian and they were you know point bank refused by all the farms over here so just to get the opportunity to come over and see what was going on at the farm. Um there was a little caveat to that is they weren't getting the production they wanted with the uh tree monitors which is I spoke to Peter. Um and then just being you know all my life I've been pretty shy and uh introverted and then I just thought you know what this this is a little bit of me if I open my mouth and say maybe I can come over here or some sort of deal uh and help you with the with the monitors um then that you know that would be good and and they jumped at the option. So, um, it's probably important to say that the deal I have here, I'm I'm like a partner with with the farm, uh, but I only get paid for what I breed over here. >> Um, so anything that I don't breed, uh, I don't get paid for, basically. Um, so it's in my interest to breed as much. I mean, it works well for the farm and it works well for me. It keeps me on my toes. Um, it's in my interest to captive breed as much as I possibly can at the farm. >> Damn. So, breeding is what keeps your job? Yeah, I'm very lucky in in other senses. So, I don't pay for any um food here and I don't pay for any, you know, housing or anything like that. Um but yeah, any any sort of real money comes from uh captive breeding uh of the stuff I do here. >> Chris, how many people are on the farm or how many people work at the farm? >> Like staff wise, there's 30 people. Um a lot of those >> Oh, wow. They're not all animal people. So the farm's on two hectares, so it's a big farm um with like a nice uh villa and everything um and like a pool and stuff. And then you got the main farm which is obviously all the animals. There's a lot of people um that are sort of employed from the local village, but they're they're sort of not in animal roles. They're in like, you know, literally some of them are just there sweeping leaves and stuff like that or picking bananas and you know, very, you know, small jobs. And then as as far as the animal team goes, um I probably got three other guys that work with me on the monitors, maybe four. Um and then I think we've got three on on the pythons. [clears throat] >> So the green tree pythons, how much of that are you overseeing? Is that all is that your baby basically? Are you is that all you? >> No, no, no. And that that's important thing to say as well is I've got 450 breeder monitor monitors here and obviously I was bought over to to do the monitors. Yeah, >> the last 18 months has all been sorting that out and then in my free time I'll pop over to the pythons. I've personally got, you know, 25 condro that I oversee personally. >> Um, but now now the monitors are where I want them to be, that'll be focused. Like I said before, that's why I sort of said the more I breed here, >> you know, species wise and numbers wise, the more I'm going to get paid. So, it's in my interest to be into everything, but it's taken them, you know, at least 18 months to get the monitors to where I need them to be. >> And you said there's four 450. Is that what you said? >> Breeders. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, there's 250 250 tree monitors and then um all the others, you know, your mangroves, your um crocodile monitors, pretty much every single Indonesian monitor apart from Komodo dragons, which are, you know, just not allowed to keep. That is crazy. [laughter] I had I had 11 and I thought this I had 11 tree monitors at one point. I thought that was like insanity. You know what I mean? 200 and something bro is just [ __ ] bizarre. That is >> but also really I I'd pay big money to see that. I would want to see what the [ __ ] that looks like for sure. Um because I seen how decked out you do the enclosures for the croc monitors. It's like a looks like a mini Jurassic Park. It's very impressive. Like it's it's like stuff you can't do here. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean that's been a big learning curve as well. I'm from the UK where you can't keep anything outside uh for any period of time if at all. So I've had to learn the Well, it's going to take me probably 10 years to figure out how to keep stuff outside. I'm I'm not saying you know it just is. Think how long it takes you to be comfortable with keeping stuff inside. It's not like an easy feat and all that can be controlled. Um, it's like being, you know, we are a farm and I feel like I'm a farmer now because I'm constantly looking at the weather and, uh, seeing what's going on. You know, it can be, we're 500 meters elevation here. We're actually in between two volcanoes. So, we get like rolling fog coming through, rainstorms, and then it can be blisteringly hot. And then, you know, yesterday was a prime example where in the morning it was blistery hot, all the monitors are out basking and then 12:00 it it started raining, didn't stop raining till 12:00 last night. >> So, it's it's hard work. Um, it's, you know, it's just a different system with with the outdoor stuff. You sort of have to just >> different rules, man. >> Yeah. You sort I mean, I was super worried when I first came. I was like, there's no way this stuff is going to survive. It drops to I know probably don't know what it is in Fahrenheit. The coldest temperature I've recorded here at night is about 19 Celsius probably 50 50 degrees F. >> Yeah. Uh 66 so about 65 uh Fahrenheit. So it's cold. It can be prolonged periods of that um where it doesn't warm up too much in the day as well. Um, so it's it's quite amazing to see how resilient uh, you know, a lot of the reptiles are. Um, so been interesting, but we do do stuff inside as well. Chris, >> are are you is is the farm collecting animals on a regular basis from the wild as well to supplement your already massive breeding stock? >> Um, for the monitors, no. Um, all depends. We've had some green tree pythons come in. It's it's not as easy as just going and collecting them from the wild. You need a permit from the government to say you want to um add to your founding stock. Basically, some of the founding stock obviously gets old and dies and then you're allowed to uh replace that. But you can't just ring someone up in in um you know, Sarong and say, "I want 10 uh green tree pythons." Then it's very it has to be recorded along the all uh along the way. And then that person in in song actually has to be official as well if that makes sense. He has to have a license that's able to ship out. So there's a lot of stuff there's a lot of stuff that um there's a quot for a wildcourt quotota for um so and then they're registered for that but you have to use those sort of you know legitimate legitimate people to when you're allowed to add to your founding stock. You can't just ring them up and say I need you know 20 more condos or whatever. >> Yeah. So, it's it's not a free-for-all, basically. >> No, no, no, no. Um, and so, yeah, the Societies says as well, obviously they have to be captive bred F2 generation. >> Wow. [clears throat] Okay, let's get to this, Chris, because obviously, you know, briefly what you just said, you're primarily uh rooted with monitors. Like, that's been your [ __ ] bread and butter. And then you're dipping your toes into some other species. Um, you know, obviously with condro, you learn a lot about condos. Um, I'm really happy that I learned a lot from imports because I got to see what a sick condro looks like and like was able to identify when condrils just aren't looking normal. So, what have you what have you learned? Like what are how many of the condrs are you noticing that you guys inquire are like actually looking good at at a point where they go to breeding versus they're not making it and you have to put them down or something, you know? What's the ratio on that? >> Um, I wouldn't know what the the whole thing is. the the the biggest problem when I got here is they were keeping quite a lot of stuff in tubs. So the issue wasn't anything to like respiratory or anything like that. It was a lot of pushing that they were getting um that was causing mouth rot. Um so then I've designed um those 25 cages outside which has completely eliminated that problem. Um I spoke to Patrick a lot as well. I mean I' I'd not seen condro with blisters before. That was a massive problem here as well. >> What are blisters >> from being too kept too wet? wet. Too wet, I'm assuming. >> Yeah, I think it was to do it's it's 70% humidity here all the time. Even in my room now, it's probably about 70% because I haven't got the air conditioner on. Um and then keeping them in in tubs, even though they had big mesh lids on it, um it was just causing, you know, blisters. Um which was a big problem, which we've solved now, um which was a real positive thing, um by moving them into bigger glass, uh enclosures. And then obviously as MJ had on his um podcast last week, we've just unfortunately sent out um 35 condro uh and a lot of those have come back tested positive for Naido um which obviously I'm I'm completely gutted about. There's probably no one more gutted about it than than me to be honest. Some of those snakes I personally kept um for at least 3 months and some of those were actually my holdbacks that I'd had um for over six months. Um, and >> yeah, >> yeah, neither. >> These were these were captive bred animals or or >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not We're not >> Have you done any >> Have you done any testing of your of your colony, your like adults? >> That's the the biggest problem we've got, Marshall. There's no facility to test uh in Indonesia. I I was literally This week, as as I said to MJ, has been the most stressful uh week I've had. I'm I'm like I am gutted about it. Um, you know, I've built up a good reputation and especially for the farm, we've been so open and public with the farm, which has never happened before. Um, um, so to have this comeback is is, you know, gutting. Um, but yeah, the the the big problem we've got is there's no testing in Indonesia unless it's a cat or dog. There's brilliant testing for rabies or anything, you know, um, of those sort of diseases, but not, you know, we're probably 20 years away from from getting a Nido test here. Uh and then the problem obviously with with Naido as you guys know is it's a pretty weak virus. So if we tested here the time those tests got over to America for example even if that's legal I don't know where the legalities of that would be. >> Um obviously because they're a sites animal it's probably a gray area. Um I know people have have been told off just for taking shed skins um from Indonesia before. It's where Yeah. Yeah. From from a bone >> it's like a Yeah. Yeah. an animal or any part of the animal sites. You're not allowed to to transport it across borders. [clears throat] >> That includes sheds. >> That being said, uh the virus wouldn't survive by the time it got from Indonesia to America. The virus probably wouldn't survive on that on that kit anyway. So, they would come back as, you know, negative. So, that's obviously not what we want to do. Um so, we're in a really tricky uh position. Um I've actually I was saying to MJ before I've spoken to um all our customers now and made them aware of it because I think that's a responsible thing to do. Um we've sent 20 condro since to the UK uh and they've been told um to test those uh animals uh and see what happens there. If those come back, you know, in a high number again, then we're obviously um just going to stop doing the condos for the next year or two. Um and then focus on, you know, updating our protocols here. um and getting it sorted out. It's just the response. I I don't want to send one six sick snake out. So, if it's more than, you know, if it's more than even one, then I'm not happy with that. And I sort of explain that to to the owner here. He's completely on board with it. Well, Chris, I'm Chris, I'm sure that you know that even if adult animals on the farm are nidto positive that you can breed them, produce them, and if you, you know, separate the babies and have, you know, keep them away from the adults, then >> to sell babies. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's so that's I've I've personally had two clutches this year. Well, three. I had a couple of coffee hours where they slugged out. Um, so the arrow clutch and the and the gyora clutch. those are actually in my um baby monitor room uh completely away from uh any of the other pythons. Um so yeah, I want to test that theory. I don't know that's I don't know how solid that is or how much that's been proven. Um >> I I would say, you know, we have enough experience here in the States that that that it it is a proven >> it's proven that as long as you don't maternally incubate where the virus can be transmitted vertically, if you're artificially incubating, >> you're good. there is a there's literally a zero chance that the that the Neos will will come out Nido positive. So that that's really excellent news for you guys. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So we like I said, we'll just treat the the collection as as everything has got Nido and then um I need to speak to Patrick. We want to get Steve um Steven Tillis over here. I think he did his PhD on Naido. Invite him over to the farm and just see where we can obviously improve with the biocurity we've got here. Um, I I personally think, you know, the the packing process we got here, um, is probably where we can look at it the most. I honestly, hand on heart, cannot believe that those snakes that I had, all of those had Naido. I think there's obviously been a crosscontamination at some stage, the packing process because I I would have noticed it. Um, and like I said to MJ, I was like, "Mate, I wouldn't have there's no need for me to pack a sick snake over here. I can either not send it or you know send something else. Um and then they they arrived in Canada. Um and I I spoke to the importer there. I said did those stakes show any sign of RAI? No. I said okay. Uh then she obviously sent them on and then there's videos of people being this is the you know the gutting thing about it of unpacking those snakes and then they still looking healthy there but then two weeks later um obviously showing signs of our eye and now we we obviously know it's Naido. Um but you know the problem with Naido again from from what I can work out is it's big stress points and they've had three massive stress points uh of bringing that virus to the forefront. They've been packed here. They've gone halfway across the world. They've been unpacked there and then they've been repacked again, you know. So, um, obviously I think that's why um, it's happened so quickly maybe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Go ahead, Bill. >> Oh, I was going to say the other thing is, you know, Chris, I mean, I'm sure you have have dove deeply into the Naido. Um, but these animals can be asymptomatic their entire life. >> Yep. And so, you know, you could absolutely pack a nidopositive animal that's never had any kind of respiratory issues, but like you said, >> once they get stressed, then that that can trigger that that to have a viral outbreak. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And any experienced condo keeper in this in the United States knows like an adult available for purchase, a condro, proven breeder, it's not always something you just jump to. You know what I mean? There's a lot of things to look to. You don't just go get an adult because you know what you're going to get. More than likely that's just not going to work out in your favor. Um, historically, that's just what it's what it's been about. But with babies, you know, like Bill said, if you get them isolated after they're out, dude, and you you have control of that, you you're you're in the clear with babies, for sure. >> Yeah. >> Chris, were all the animals that went to Canada, were they all adults? >> Um, no. Some were um babies. Um, some were juveniles, and I think there was a few adults as well. >> Okay. any any of the babies come back nidto positive that you know of like or was it just the adults? >> Uh yeah, I think the babies have come back as well. >> Yeah, I mean it would make sense if the babies were exposed to the adults that were natto positive in the transport. I mean of >> sorry. I was going to say like like yeah when you pack them up or when you're doing husbandry or when you know whatever >> all together >> with that many people that's kind of you know like what I don't know how many people work the condro but once you get your protocols established like obviously it's got to be extremely strict like you touch the adults like you don't come near the babies for this day you know >> I mean people do >> that was already in in place anyway um from they do the babies first that's why I really think it was at the the packing stage and something and there is only one person that actually does um the condos. He actually was Vladimir's right-hand man, and we can get into that in a bit more of a a positive section. So, just to wrap this up, um it's it's important to say that obviously Naido isn't an Indonesian problem. It's a it's a Python problem. Um and then you guys are super lucky um with able to test. So, you know, it's good to get the awareness out there no matter where you get any Python and especially a condro python is to test. Um and then to obviously um the customers that have been affected by this. We've been completely transparent and open about it and that everyone is going to be made right uh in whatever way uh that they feel you know, is adequate whether that's other animals they want or if we have to look at full refunds then that's what the door is completely open to everything. We haven't shut this and as soon as we found out about it um I jumped on and said right get those animals tested uh and then um give me the results and then you know it'll be sorted. So, I really hope that people are happy with the way that we're dealing with it. Obviously, we didn't want this situation. We don't want this situation going forward again. Um, but please don't feel that you're not going to get it sorted out. You will definitely 100% be made right. >> Well, that's that's amazing, Chris. You know, to step up and do the right thing. I'm sure the farm operates on pretty tight margins. Um, so, you know, for you guys to take responsibility and to make a, you know, large shipment like that, right? Uh, to the people, that's that's outstanding and and I I commend you on that. >> And and and that's not typical behavior when you deal with imports that come in like that. Normally, you're [ __ ] And there's nothing there. They usually shut the door on you after that. You know what I mean? So, the fact that you are willing to be open and communicate with these people and not just block them or do what some of these other people do, that's what separates you from the others, for sure. Yeah, I I mean I' I've had I was saying to you, MJ, before with carpet pythons. I was a big carpet python breeder in the UK. Um and we we couldn't test for Nido then. Um but I definitely had it there knowing what I know now. And yeah, there was just there was no recourse for it um to go back. But yeah, I I just want to be treated, you know, this game can be can be rough as you guys all know. Whether it's breeding stuff, whether it's customers, whether you're a customer, it can be the, you know, the most best thing in the world and it can be, you know, gut-wrenching. Like I was saying to MJ, this has been like the hardest month to two weeks I've had in in this hobby just of like trying to build everything up, doing really well with the monitors, and then just to be hit with this, it's like, oh, but the responsible thing to do and what I would want to do is is to be made right. So there's no, you know, for us as a farm, there's there's no option. As long as you can, you know, which they have, prove that that was there. We're not even saying, oh, you've got it there. Nobody's to blame, um, you know, at all in this. we can't test here. Um, and then, you know, there's lots of things in hindsight that we can put forward now, but as you guys are alluding to. Um, I spoke to Bungie, the owner, yesterday. Um, and said, "Yeah, why don't we just keep keep everything back for the next year or two, build a, you know, have a positive collection that we can get our holdbacks from, move that um to a secure area, obviously increase our protocol, um, and then, you know, just just build it up again that way. Yeah. Well, again, good [ __ ] man. Um, I gotta ask you, you know, I want to get back to the topic of, you know, do dealing with indoor versus outdoor breeding. Um, with the condrils, which you've already had success, like what is it that you're looking for? Are you looking for females to look like they're building follicles or are you just pairing? Are you feeding them a certain way? Let's get into how you're actually breeding condr outside in Indonesia. So, so far we we until I got here, they weren't doing anything outdoors. So, like I sort of said before those it's probably from being a monitor keeper. Those outdoor ones I've done is like they were getting the problem with pushing indoors. A lot of their faces were getting pushed, >> right? If monitors doing that, you know, number one is probably hungry, but you know, you can't just keep slamming snakes with with food um so much. I was like, you know, in the wild they don't do this. If if we can make something as close as it is to the wild, you know, and keep him those those cages are probably 7 foot by 4 foot by 3 foot wide. Um, put them in there, make it really naturalistic. Um, and then do it that way. Will that stop the and and the blister thing as well where they've got they're fully mesh cages um with a great deal of air flow which is hard for us to do inside. it gets very humid very quick inside and you've got that and it has solved all those problems but as far as breeding that's that's only been done in the last four months. So we haven't you know next year will be to see if that works uh out there. Uh so yeah all the all the clutches I've had were from indoor really standard. Um are they two foot cubes? Two or three foot cubes I can't remember what what they are of of those glass cages. >> Yeah. It's amazing to hear, you know, where you have uh problems with too much humidity. That is rarely the case with captive keepers. Uh certainly I think anywhere in the world, Europe, um you know, certainly here, the vast majority of people have problems with not being able to maintain enough humidity. So, you know, to hear that you're dealing with overload of humidity is just uh you know, it's just a different different problem to hear. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's been a massive uh learning curve. Same in the UK where you just don't have enough humidity. I mean, humidity is great, but it comes with a caveat of having air flow. >> You got too much humidity and not enough air flow. It it just doesn't work out. So, you need to get the the the two in balance really. Um, and I think actually being too humid for a lot of these reptiles and and condro seem no different is probably worse than actually keeping them a bit drier and dealing with, you know, stuck sheds and stuff like that. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah. The worst case that happens, you know, with not enough humidity is, you know, as long as they're hydrated, you have low humidity, then you get stuck sheds. And, you know, that's that's for the most part pretty easy to fix. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Let's let's uh let's talk about how you incubate these babies, you know, because I remember seeing a video in Africa of like guys incubating ball pythons in Africa all in the open. Like it was like literally just open. Like obviously because that's where they're from. So it makes sense. But how are you doing uh incubation in uh you know in a facility like where you're at with you know they're basically in their natural territory. So how does that work? >> Um they're just incubated the same as you would do uh probably in America. They're in artificial incubators. Um, I'm a monitor guy and a bit like I think you were saying before, Bill, the guys here before were doing that grid method uh over water and then that was causing a lot of problems with, you know, eggs getting very wet. So, I actually spoke to Ryan Young. Ryan Young's been to the farm. Um, and, you know, these these are my personal, you know, breedings. Like I said, I've had the

Two breedings with the gyors and arrows, and I was like, "Mate, can I not just put these, um, on substrate?" Like, "Yeah, that's what I do." So, um, they were incubated. Um, I always have to convert it back to about 87 Fahrenheit, straight baked. Um, and that, um, vermiculite in there. It's like 400g of vermiculite and 300g of water. Um, and it seems to work. But yeah, those are just the, the Python incubator is just a big, um, indoor walking incubator. Um, and then it's just got a literally an oil-filled radiator and a thermostat in there. Um, and then obviously the monitor ones are a little bit smaller. We're just building two more incubators now. Um, one will be another Python incubator. Um, and one will be a monitor incubator. And they'll just both be walk-in, uh, incubators. But yeah, no different. We can't really, um, just put them on the shelf or anything because it gets so cold here.

>> Ryan Young won't say it, but like, I feel like he looks down on people who don't put the eggs directly into the substrate. Like it's like, he, dude, you're not [ __ ] that. You [laughter] know what I mean? So, and I got to say, I don't trust my measurements. I, I, I feel like I can. I think I'm just being a [ __ ] and that's why Ryan's clowning. But I don't know, man. I do think it's awesome being able to directly put them into the substrate, but I just don't want to, I don't know. I just don't want to [ __ ] it up, I guess. [laughter]

>> Yeah. I mean, I had massive success with doing carpet pythons in those SIM containers, like 100% hatch rates, everything. Uh, brilliant. Then I went to breeding the tree monitors. I was like, "Ah, this, this will be easy. I'll just put them in the SIM containers." And unfortunately, they just didn't work for me. They, even though it's like 100% humidity in there, the eggs started, um, crumpling down. And then it's very hard with those SIM containers to, unless you put like moss in there or something like that. You need some sort of contact on that egg, on that egg to, you know, rehydrate it, basically. So, uh, with all the monitor stuff I do, it's direct in in perlite, and then I can add water to the perlite if needs be. Um, and then, you know, I, I spoke to Ryan, who, um, helps me greatly, obviously, with, with the Python stuff. I was like, "How do you do it?" He's like, "Oh, people make it too complicated." You know what Ryan's like, "Just chuck them in some, uh, chuck them in some vermiculite at this." And it worked. Um, and those, those eggs, I was super worried about those. And even Ryan sort of said to me about it, of them getting wet, and for some reason, they got pretty wet and had no problems.

>> Um,

>> Like that water, like water dripped on them.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, it's first of all, probably dealing with our humidity as well. Um,

>> I mean, you can kind of tell with like, if you kind of go back and, and look at the eggs, you'll see like an egg that's turning green like,

>> It looks super wet.

>> It looks super wet. This is what I was trying to avoid. But you obviously had success with it. Like, it worked for you. So I think,

>> Yeah. I mean, the same with the monitor eggs over here. I don't like them getting wet. So if I see any moisture on the lid or anything, I wipe it off. But,

>> It wasn't like a death sentence that I, you know, if you, I think it was Maxwell's book or whatever, of they cannot get wet whatsoever.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a big no-no. You don't want that.

>> Yeah. Um, which is, you know, I don't want people to start, you know, putting a shower on their eggs or anything and saying, "Chris, why have you ball python people are coming into condos by the day?" And if you see how these [ __ ] hatch their ball python eggs, they put a, a food seal wrap in the egg box. And by the time it's day 52, dude, when they open up, you should see all the water. It just comes down like a [ __ ] waterfall all over the eggs. The snakes are fine. There's no issue with them. But it just baffles me because I feel like I don't, I don't do that first and foremost. I used to, but I was like, what a such an unnecessary step. Like, if your humidity is fine, you don't need a food seal wrap. And I never understood the whole water over the eggs thing. But, um, because I would feel like in the wild, that's not happening. They're not getting drenched with water in the wild. Um, but then again, I don't, I don't know. I don't, you know, we don't,

>> Yeah, they obviously get maternally incubated in the wild, and I'm pretty sure that female's not letting them wet them. It was, it was just an interesting, like I said, it's purely anecdotal. Um, I just deal with a lot of moisture on the lid, and like you were saying, when I'm lifting the lid off, a lot of it drips on the water. I'd have to be in there probably, uh, twice a day wiping that lid off. So, so they got wet.

>> Hey, real quick. What's the humidity in the room that the incubator's in? Like, is it high because you're Indonesia? Like, is all, is humidity high everywhere you go in that facility?

>> Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. I've never actually measured. I've never measured humidity on any eggs, even the monitor eggs. Um, I just look at the actual condition of the eggs themselves, and be a bit more worried about the temperature. If you walk into that incubator, it, you know, it feels humid. It's like walking into a, a humid room.

>> Dude, I bet you don't even need to put water on that substrate, and they'll still hatch. I bet because [laughter] how [ __ ] humid it is where you're at. I guarantee like you do half the water you put,

>> Um,

>> and even a dry layer, and I guarantee those eggs will probably hatch because where you live.

>> Yeah. So that's what I've done with the monitors. The monitors in the UK, the perlite would be one, one, uh, ratio of perlite to water. I've halved that in the incubator for the monitors. So they're at like 150 grams of water and 75 gram, sorry, 150 grams of perlite and 75 grams of water. So it's half what I'm used to, basically. Yeah.

>> Yeah. No, not half, like half of what it, of the one to one ratio, if that makes sense.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, and then I've had to put air holes in, in, um, in which I've never, never had to do in the UK. Never had any air holes in, in the incubation boxes. So, um, yeah, it's, it's all a learning curve. Like I said, with the green tree pythons, I'm right at the infancy of it. Um, building up the projects, um, and, you know, trying to do stuff outside and then obviously have more success inside. Um, an interesting, like I said, a bit of a positive and probably a cool story that people don't know. So, Vladimir, um, was actually bought over to this farm, uh, by Bungie, the owner of this farm. So, uh, Vladimir, if people don't know, is you probably one of the best condo breeders. Definitely the best condo breeder in, in Indonesia, and sort of someone I obviously idolize now, uh, being over here trying to do the same sort of thing. Um, but yeah, he was bought from Moscow Zoo, um, to, to this farm, Pstasi. Um, uh, he was here for a year, um, obviously doing the condro and some, some Bolan's pythons. Unfortunately, Pstasi wasn't as established, wasn't making as much money. So, uh, Cameron actually come over and, and headhunted him for, for Bushmaster.

>> So he, yeah. So he actually,

>> So he, so Chris, he was at your farm before he went to Bushmaster?

>> Yes. So Bungie was actually the person that, that bought him over from Moscow Zoo because they were doing quite a lot of work with Bolan's pythons even back then. I think Bungie had organized him to go and look for for Bolans in, in the wild. Um, but yeah, he, he came over to this farm and then obviously he was obviously given a better deal after a year from, from Bushmaster. So, uh, it's always a bit of a sore subject. But then, uh, Bushmaster, I, I don't know the ins and outs of it. Bushmaster, um, possibly had a fallen out with him. He left that farm, and, uh, Bungie actually had him back here, um, to this farm here, but unfortunately, he actually passed away in, in the room I'm sitting in now.

>> No kidding. I, I, I did not know that he went back.

>> Wow. Very, very interesting. Hey Chris, I was going to ask you, how many Indonesian farms are there now that are actively producing green tree pythons?

>> Um, so there's five, five farms that are allowed. Is it five? Five farms are allowed to. So there's some farms that are only allowed to do, uh, wild quota stuff, and then there's five breeding facilities. Um, you know, there's Danny, um, Ganalan, that people might know, um, Bushmaster, um, it's still, it's still going, but that seems to have, um, it's been taken over by his son, basically. Um, and I think Cameron, you know, Cameron's not got the involvement with it now. Um, so they seem to have slowed production obviously to when Vladimir was there, from, from what I know, from the outside of things. Um, and then there's a few other ones that have got a license to breed. Um, but I don't, like, I'm not invited to any of the other farms, obviously. They don't want me there, and they actually get pretty annoyed with me, um, posting like what we do. Um, because they, they've all been so secretive. Even Bungie, who's the owner of this farm, um, it's taken him a long time to allow me to, you know, to tell say what's going on there. I just think it's a good thing to be open with the farms going over because there's a lot of stuff, you know, that might have been happening previously. Um, and, you know, it's got a lot, a lot stricter over here as well. Uh, we've just gone through a massive audit over here by the government and CITES to make sure everything's all right. They've put new things in place where it'll be run more as a zoo, things like logbooks, um, studbooks, all that sort of stuff. That was one of my questions before you came on, Chris, is it seems like there is less availability of imports from Indonesia in the last five years. Is it because of increased regulation over there, or is it decreased production, or what do you think is the cause of that?

>> A trifecta of all of it. Vladimir was doing really well with, with the stuff from, with Bushmaster. They, they were the best at doing it. They had the best production, um, best everything. And then that obviously did seem to tail off, uh, when he passed away, basically. You can see sort of a trend of it, of it tailing off. Um, and then obviously, yeah, the regulations have got a lot tighter, of proving the legitimacy of the animals, um, being audited. Um, and then, um, yeah, I mean, it's, people get, um, have probably had some loss of trust in, in the Indonesian stuff. Maybe, maybe some bad shipments, like I've just gone, gone through now. So it's probably a trifecta of everything where people may not be ordering the stuff. Uh, the other one we see is obviously you guys in the US and in Europe are doing so much better now with captive breeding in, in country. Um, so maybe the, you know, the demand for it is, is not there when you can get a captive bred one, um, you know, in your home country. So it's probably a mix of everything.

>> Yeah. But then again, like, I'm, I'm somebody who could, couldn't afford much when I first started, and, you know, I couldn't only afford imports. Um, as much as I was staring at Bill's stuff and other people's stuff, I just, at that time, you know, spending anything more than $1,000 was so out of my league. You know, I shouldn't even say $500 at that time. I was broke, you know? But then again, I was able to find a way because of imports. Um, and, you know, my situation was unique because of Forest, man. Like, Forest got me good buddies with this importer that we were getting stuff from. So, anytime I would get something really [ __ ] up, like, yeah, I would call him pissed off, but he would fix it. He would somehow like make it right and then send me something that was solid. And I'm like, "All right, I'm happy now." Um, and I was, you know, I think only because we were all friends at that time, you know, and so, but I, but then when I found out, like when I started talking about this guy, I would have people come to me saying, "Yo, I caught this [ __ ] snake and it's like missing an eye or like some crazy shit." And like, he wouldn't take care of them. He would just be like, "You're fucked." And I, and like, there was like a, there was a list of these people, and I'm like, "Oh my god." So I had to cut ties. I'm like, "That's [ __ ] up." And I just knew I was getting taken care of because the friendship with Forest and all that. But man, it's just like I said, normally, man, it's not like it's a win-lose, but with the lose, the losing sucks. Like, because it's, it's bitter.

>> I, I, I, I think Chris makes an excellent point. You know, when I was doing ball pythons, first got into it 25 years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> There was a huge number of imported ball pythons coming out of, uh, out of Africa.

>> Now, how many are there?

>> Hardly any. Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if they, if there are any anymore. And it's because obviously because production in Europe in the United States have, have just dominated the market, and there's no, no need to go, um, go to Africa to, to get your ball pythons anymore. So, I mean, it makes sense a little bit. Um, you trying to compare green tree pythons to ball pythons is like apples and oranges, but you're right. I think there is more local, um, production, um, on all scales, high-end stuff, and, and locality stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> Makes a little bit of sense that demand, the demand might be a little bit less.

>> But having said that, there's still a huge market. We, you know, we still can't keep up with demand, um, in the United States for what what's being produced.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's, it's, it's why I'm here, basically. We need to up, up the standards over here to be able to, not directly compete with you, but, you know, to bring it to a, a sort of level, um, where it's, you know, we can offer, obviously, the running costs here are a lot cheaper than in the US, for example. So our, you know, condos and everything from here is always going to be, um, a bit cheaper. But if, you know, if people are getting stuff and they're not happy with it, then obviously they're going to look somewhere else. So it's, it's just a call for standards over here. So, and, and the transparency as well, which I've, I've done with the monitors of showing stuff breeding, showing stuff hatching. Um, and, you know, it's, it doesn't make it that much different to buying one in, say, the US. Um, the only issue you've got obviously is there's way more shipping. You guys get to ship, you know, might take, I don't know how long it takes. Maybe they're the same day, maybe they're next day, where we've got a lot longer period of, of shipping and, and stress, unfortunately.

>> Yeah. Chris, does the government, um, care or, or track the different species, or are they all just, uh, track?

>> What do they consider them?

>> All, all virus now.

>> All just virus.

>> It's all just all just virus. So the, the Indonesian team or CITES team here have to go to CITES to say that they recognize the new name. So they have to recognize that paper and they have to bring it up as CITES. They're going to say, right, we've read this paper. We agree with it. Um, I know one of the, the well, I know Dan and Ami's the head of, um, BRIN over here, which is the scientific authority. He was on that paper as well. Um, so he knows that they're, they're different species. Um, but it's a case of going through CITES can take a long time. So, um, they would have to go to CITES, say, we recognize that name, basically, and then CITES adopts that name, and then that's what it is. Um, so I think Dan Meri just had some, a bit of issue with, um, some Antreza. There's ania Papawenis, which is a spotted python from, from New Guinea. The Indonesian government actually recognized that name, and that's what come on the CITES paperwork, but because it wasn't on the, uh, CITES database, America refused that name.

>> This is, this is the sort of problems you can get. It was, we're fully, you know, we fully on board with that name over here. We agree with it. But because CITES hadn't adopted it, um, maybe on the US side, or as a whole, um, it, it got, um, you know, sent back, and he had some issues with that. So that's the sort of issues we can run into if everyone's not working together. Uh, another issue we have is, um, the Albert's pythons. So southern white lip pythons, there's a bit of a mess there. The name can either be hosery or meridionalis. It should probably actually be Fred Parkery. Um, over here, I think we use Meridonales, not hosery, but the US wants hosery. So we've sent stuff, we've sent stuff over there as mealis, which is, you know, [clears throat] the name that Indonesia has accepted, but then America hasn't accepted that name. They've accepted hoserai. So it's all a big mess, really. Everyone needs to be on the same page. So sometimes with, you know, imagine the mess that would be caused with, uh, you know, you got four subspecies, species of condro now.

>> And then probably ID-ing those ones as well. You mean, they're pretty, you know, to the average guy in customs, a virus is going to look very much like, you know.

>> So how, how are they going to get around I actually keying that animal out to say, oh, you know, this one's got a black tail, this, this, and this. It just, I think it would just cause a world of of hurt just to keep it, keep it veridious for now. [laughter]

>> I, I think the name Hoserai is pretty sick, to be honest. Kind of feeling that name.

>> You wouldn't if you knew where it was from.

>> Yeah, I was gonna say.

>> Everybody pretty much thinks that guy's a dick. [laughter]

>> You know, I mean, I don't want to give him any air time or anything. He's just a menace. But unfortunately, if you know, if you throw enough [ __ ] at the wall, sometimes something sticks. So, every now and then he's right about something, and you know, those names stick. Um, which is just annoying for anyone that's really [laughter]

>> Don't, don't get Ryan Young started in the chats. He's probably, he's probably banging the keyboard as we speak.

>> So, the reason I brought up that Vladimir, so I don't know if people found interesting at all, but,

>> It's very, it's very interesting, and people should know that name. People that are interested in green tree pythons should know that name.

>> Vladimir.

>> Yeah. Um, but we're lucky here. So the guy called Haro, that does our green tree pythons here, he actually went with, he went from here, annoyingly, with Vladimir to, to Bushmaster, and then when he returned, he actually come back here and he lives on site now. Um, but unfortunately, I don't speak good enough Indonesian yet to have a real good conversation. Hoping in the future, um, I'll be able to get some really good stories off him because he was literally his right-hand man for, for looking after the stuff. So, I just think it's a cool little,

>> Vladimir had some very interesting theories. Uh, the one to me that comes to mind is, you know, the ideology of prolapse and neonates, and he's the one that first brought the theory of lack of calcium in the mothers. It translated to lack of calcium in the neonates. They had teeth that were faulty. They would shed faulty teeth, and that would cause prolapse and neonates, which I thought was an incredibly interesting theory.

>> Yeah, that's what, um, I don't know enough about the, the prolapsing. I've, like I said, I've got those two clutches that I'm personally over, uh, looking after, and then I hear you guys go on about it all the time. It's like, "Are they going to get them feeding?" And then they're going to, they're going to prolapse after that. So, yeah, I'm not at that stage. I'm, I'm very inexperienced when it comes to, to raising any up yet.

>> What are you feeding your neonates, Chris?

>> Um, they're all on just live pinky mice. If they don't eat them, then we, um, tend to cut a quail and use the blood from a, a quail, um, and put that onto a pinky mouse. And then last resort, we use actually use house geckos. So, we do use geckos.

>> Okay.

>> My man.

>> And what about, what about parasite issues? Are you, are you having to treat these animals for parasites before you ship them out, or is, are parasites an issue because of the water source and obviously geckos, house geckos?

>> Yeah. Uh, again, we can't obviously test for much over here unless I obviously, um, look into it and getting a microscope and stuff like that. Um, and then, you know, the, the adult stuff and the, the monitors, uh, we use Flagyl and, uh, Panacur. Um, that's for our breeders, but I wouldn't feel happy about, you know,

>> getting those babies, um, treating them for parasites and then shipping them out. Um, I think that sort of lay people need to know that sort of lays on that. It's just another level of stress.

>> That, that shipping process is super stressed, and then I don't want to be, you know, messing up gut flora and all the rest of it. Um, so, yeah, it's something, and this is probably the big topic of, of everything. No matter where you get a snake from, you need to quarantine and you need to test. And obviously, that's heightened from where, you know, in Indonesia. That's, that's where that, that farm-raised thing is, is an important thing to to think about. Basically, even if we're captive breeding here, we've got way more, uh, things that are going on with, you know, house geckos, geckos coming into the room, stuff being kept outside. So your, your quarantine needs to be upped even more than say, it should be anyway.

>> Yeah. Um,

>> Do, do you recommend that people that get an imported animal from the farm, so obviously you recommend that they test them for Nido? Do you also recommend that they test them for parasites?

>> Yeah, I, I think after, yeah, as long as it's not going to cause an, an amount, an undue amount of stress. So, the, the monitors I've got here, for example, which I can speak on a lot more, I've had here for 18 months, or I've been looking after them for 18 months. Only last week did I treat them for parasites. So, it's, it's a very tricky situation of when you do it. I, I don't personally think that you should get an animal in and then worry about, you know, worms and parasites so much as getting the snake rehydrated,

>> establish,

>> and then maybe,

>> yeah, get it established, get it feeding, get it hydrated. Um, and then, you know, after a year, maybe start looking into tests if you want to. I mean, I deal with loads. Nearly everything here is is wild caught, um, from, you know, the founding stock, and they breed happily, and, you know, it's stress that causes these things to to multiply and and come out, and, you know, even with the, the founding stock that we get in here, it doesn't, you know, it gets put into quarantine way, like especially with the tree monitors, and then just rehydration, rehydration, rehydration, get some weight on them, and then, you know, look at parasites and stuff way, way, way further in the future. Yeah, way down the line.

>> That's my, that's my belief. Whether that, you know, people agree with me, I don't know. I've, I've treated a lot of snakes in the past, pre to being in Indonesia, and I feel that I've done them a detriment by shoving Panacur down their throat within the first three months. And it's,

>> it's better to get that snake non, not stressed. Rehydration is number one. That's, that's what kills so many animals is them just not being dehydrated, their kidneys, you know, not, not doing well. And then, you know, is it even an issue if they've got some parasites if then, you know, if it's not showing, they're not coming out in the feces, you know, every, everything even us have got some sort of level of parasite load in us all the time. If it's going to cause too much stress, then I don't know. I'm not that worried about parasites unless it's ticks.

>> And like, I mean, if you want to talk about stress, [ __ ] shoving that goddamn par, a par parasite solution or whatever down their throat, man, like I used to have to do that a lot with emeralds because I was on this [ __ ] tip where I was, you know, a believer that a regurgitated emerald could [ __ ] be cured somehow, if you know, and that's why I, you know, God bless these people, man. But I get these cases where these people come to me saying, "MJ, yeah, like I just got this emerald." Where'd you get it from? A show. Okay, cool. What's next? It puked. Okay, put it in the freezer. It's over. Like, [laughter] and they're like, "No, well, I think I could." And I'm like, "Sure, go ahead. I'll be right here. Let me know how that works out." You know, like, you know, and I guarantee if you go smaller and you go higher, you know, it's gonna puke again. And that's just, it's just, I, I probably had so many cases of that. It was, it was, it was just so proven at that point. But man, it's, um, it's, it's dirty business, bro. It really is.

>> Yeah. We've just got six emeralds, world emeralds from, uh, Ghana. And I was like, these are going to puke. We've got one here that's been here the whole time. It's absolutely fine. And then, you know, speaking to the, he's like, "Well, I've, I've got that one here and it's been fine." I was like, "Mate, there's so much information out there from obviously listening to you, MJ." I was like, "These are going to puke." They fed. They all fed yesterday, bar one, and now I'm just looking at my car. What, what's the usual time from, from feeding to, uh, to puking?

>> Yeah. I mean,

>> my,

>> No. Yeah, I was just going to say, I, I have a buddy, DJ, who's in South Africa, and he inquired a group and he sent me pictures and, um, there's just a shine to these [ __ ] emeralds, man. Like, if they got that import shine and like, kind of, uh, like you, they kind of look like they're, I don't know, dehydrated a bit. It just, those are just all like guarantees of something that's not going to be a good outcome, you know? I just rather,

>> They don't even, they don't have to look like that though, because I've seen a few that look,

>> good. Some of them look great.

>> [ __ ] like perfect.

>> Yeah.

>> And they still puked.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> I want to know, uh, the answer to Chris's question though, is when, when do they usually puke? Like, if you feed them, are they gonna puke the next day?

>> Day five. Day, I, I know this answer, day, Bill. It's day five. Okay. Day five is when they puke. It's like clockwork. You want to get over that seven-day mark. If you get over that seven-day mark, congrats. You know, like, you're not really out because I've had them eat good-sized meals and maybe the next one was slightly bigger, puke, and I'm like, [ __ ] And after having ones that don't puke, bro, these things can handle the biggest [ __ ] rat. I mean, Marshall knows a breeder-sized female, dude, she can, she can handle a jumbo rat. It's [ __ ] insane. And they don't puke. They look like they're about to puke, but they don't puke. They hold it. And so these things are meant to have big meals in them, which people don't understand because they hear the whole puking thing and they just feed them mice for like the first five years of their life and they just stay so tiny and small. And I'm like, dude, you stunted that [ __ ] animal. Like, that thing needs to be on rats. Um, and a healthy United States captive-born and bred emerald, they don't puke. You know what I'm saying? Um, but again, man, you got to learn this stuff on your own sometimes.

>> Yeah. I'll set my, uh, set my calendar for around Christmas having a pukey Christmas or a [laughter] non-puky Christmas then. [snorts]

>> Yeah. Uh, okay. On that, on that topic of night, I'm sorry. On that topic of prolapses, do, did you experience any prolapses so far with your babies? Have you've, are you seeing,

>> No. All the Jaipuras are eating well and doing well. Um, and then the arrows have been pretty, they haven't even had their first shed yet. Um, and then I spoke to Hasso about it, and it's not really a massive issue that he said about it, and, and none of the adults that I've seen of have, um, have had the problem. Um, like I said, the biggest problem was them them pushing and the blisters, uh, which has been solved now. Um, but yeah, I, I don't know enough about it, MJ. Um, I can let you know in maybe, like, it'd be good to do this, this, um, episode again, you know, this sort of time next year, and then I have a bit more experience with it.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Because I'm always curious, you know, I, I was on a, I was on a good run of having no prolapses, and like, you know,

>> and then I eventually it happened, you know, at some point. Wasn't a lot, which I'm really happy. I only got three. Um, but like, you know, then when you have that many numbers, I feel like you can't avoid it. It sucks. Um, and, you know, we've had people on the show that said, "I've never had that happen to me." And sure, whatever. Uh, but it, I feel like you just can't avoid it sometimes. And, you know, shout out to Alex Warren. We, we talk a lot on the phone. And, you know, I feel like, you know, we could go down the list of what we think causes prolapses, but I do know sometimes people don't consider is like, how much of a room drop temperature, uh, their snake's dealing with. And I feel like a big meal in a baby condro with two cold attempts could really [ __ ] up their system in a sense, you know? But again, one of many things, right, Bill? Like, we could just add that to the list of things that could cause prolapses, I feel like.

>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm still looking for the magic bullet. Um, I will say, and you know, knock on my non-wood table, since I've gone to ASF pinks over mice pinks, my prolapse rate has been zero. Uh, over, over, uh, you know, you're looking at 75 babies now. So, you know, again, uh, Chris's mice pinks may be significantly different than the mice pinks that I have exposure to or other people, you know, have exposure to. Who knows? Um, I thought I found the magic bullet with chicken gizzards, and that certainly didn't end up being being the ultimate solution.

>> Um,

>> That was fun though. That was a good time. Like, we had, we had fun.

>> That was a good run. Yeah, we had a good episode celebrating it and [ __ ] you know, Marshall, so I, I fed a chicken gizzard today. [laughter]

>> You're dangerous, Bill. I love it.

>> What was the overall outcome with, with that? Were they getting like neuro problems from what I've seen?

>> Really? It, I didn't, I didn't describe it as neuro, but more of, um, abnormal muscular musculature movements. Didn't look neuro. I've seen neuro in snakes. I mean, I've,

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they were, they were, were they flailing around or not?

>> Yeah, they just seem to have, um, some of them lack of body tone, I think, would be the best way to describe it.

>> But the good thing was is once they got off the chicken gizzards and they got back onto a rodent diet, then, then that dissipated and almost all of them. I'm still working with one or two. Didn't we figure out, or didn't somebody on the show post in the chat that night that, um, there is that, that gizzards are super high in some, some, uh, element or something?

>> Yeah. And, uh, yeah, vitamins. So they're, and I, and I, I'll have to go back and look. Um, I can't remember if they're excessively high in which vitamin. And then they're also, um, they're also, um, poor in other, uh, aspects, but it was probably a toxicity of, of some sort. Either too, too much, you know, whatever it is, vitamin B12 or calcium or something. It was probably they probably just had too much,

>> Iron. Iron. That's what I was gonna say.

>> Yeah.

>> I knew you were watching Alex Warren. My boy, he's always listening. He's probably establishing babies right now. God bless him.

>> He's probably making a video. [laughter]

>> Uh, but yeah, you know, Chris, I have a, a topic I want to bring up, you know, because, you know, prices have changed quite a bit all around the board. Um, you know, captive bred and imports, but how are you guys determining what's being priced? Um, because basically, it's up to you guys in a sense. Um, we all know where things started at one point. I feel like they kind of fluctuated, but now, where, where are things sitting at when it comes to some of this stuff being priced when you're selling it?

>> Um, I mean, everyone's done, I don't, depends what you, where you look at it with, not talking about condos here, but everyone in Indonesia has MorphMarket on their phone if they're into reptiles. So you guys inflating the prices over there just has a knock-on effect inflating the prices over here. We obviously see the prices you getting over there, and then we want a cut of it, and then, you know, with other species that we, other species that we can get from the wild where there is a wild quota, even those hunters there are seeing the prices, so it's just a big chain reaction, basically. It starts with, starts with your market over there, and then filters down to us.

>> Very interesting. Yeah, I had no idea that that even came into how you guys would, would price things by looking at MorphMarket. That's that's,

>> That's epic.

>> That that's amazing.

>> Yeah.

>> It makes sense because I mean, they're looking at what is worth, people, what are people spending down here, you know what I mean? And so, I mean, it kind of makes sense.

>> Is that where most of your shipments from the farm goes? Is to the, to the west, whether it be, uh, America, Canada,

>> Europe. Yeah. All, all over the place. Um, Korea, Japan. Uh, that's another thing that probably, um, comes into it as well, which is, um, the emerging markets like Korea and stuff are happier to pay higher prices for stuff. Um, so then if we put a list out and we can get more money from, you know, Korea or Japan or something, then that obviously brings the price up for everyone else as well. Um, you know, we're not going to lose out on sales when we can sell them to, to another market. So, you know,

>> Has the, has the tree monitor market increased? I mean, the green tree python market price-wise is,

>> The whole of Indonesia.

>> Yeah.

>> I think all of, sorry to cut you off, Bill. Um, yeah, the, the whole across the board, COVID had a massive impact as well, and this is the other thing that people don't really realize with regulations how they are within your country and then in Indonesia itself.

>> There is like a possibility that some of these species won't be available in the future. That's not me, that's not me creating hype. That is, you know, we, we've literally just had it with blue tree monitors. They're like, you know, ESA come in, that's, you know, your market is then, you know, no more tree, no more blue tree monitors there. And those people and the governments and stuff are always looking at, you know, protected animals, protected species, which green tree pythons are protected in Indonesia. You know, wouldn't, wouldn't be surprised if they made that stricter and stricter and stricter. Other countries were like, "No, we don't want to do it." So, that's had a big effect. And I think COVID showed that effect where they weren't getting any imports really out of Indonesia. People were like, "Oh my god, there's no salv pythons here. Oh my god, there's no this here. There's no that here," because, you know, they've been relying on a bit of a supply coming through through from Indonesia.

>> So I mean, I'm a real big locality guy. I know you're not so much, uh, with designers.

>> Hey, hey, hey.

>> But yeah, you could, you could easily some of these localities and you're probably seeing it now, you know, are probably could easily drop off and not be available.

>> Like, I'm normally not into JV sports, but sometimes they're cool. You know, I go watch the sophomores play and they're [ __ ] you know, have some good games, but kind of varsity level. You know what I'm saying? I just kind of just stick to Marshall and Bill.

>> Sorry, Ryan. [ __ ]

>> Have fun. Have fun, guy. I'm just kidding.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.

>> I said it's just the problem is, it's, it's hindsight of everyone. The locality thing will go better than, well, higher than the designer thing. As soon as that, you're told you're not want, you you can't have something.

>> There you go.

>> Just be aware of that. It's like, you can do your designer. This is my take on it. Do your designer stuff, but maybe in my ideal world, everyone would have just one locality project. You know, someone does BAK, someone does Kofi, someone does that one, and that, you know, that ticks over as well, rather than just focusing on on the designer stuff. But,

>> Well, I think, I think you're absolutely right, Chris. The minute that people are told that they can no longer have a Ruse or or Kofi or whatever the case may be, that's when they're going to want it.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's what happens.

>> And let's not forget too, man. Like, there's some [ __ ] freak of nature snake out there. Probably a pied condro that we don't even know yet. And guess what? If it is or found, you [ __ ] get it first. That's kind of what happens. You guys get all the most thrown off curveball type [ __ ] that you. Remember that blue beak we put up here not too long ago? A few months back. I saw a picture of a beak that had, it was all blue and specks of yellow on it. It was so unique. Um, but like, you know, [ __ ] like that, man. Like that's a possibility for for where you're living at right now. You don't, you don't never know what's coming, dude.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, there's real big emerging markets in, in Korea and, and other places where, you know, they're paying silly money. From us. Um, but, you know, they're paying silly money for these unique species. Um, so yeah, it's, um, it's a difficult one, but I'm, I'm more worried about the, just localities. I'd be gutted if you guys can't keep an arrow or can't keep a, a coffee hour, a prime one. That's like, that's a designer animal,

>> in itself. Like a naturally occurring designer animal, pretty much. And then like, you know, not to bash anyone, but the first thing, and, and Ryan says this, the first thing that anyone did was was breed it to a load of BAK, probably.

>> [laughter]

>> That's a listen, and that's the right thing to do. [laughter]

>> Shout, [snorts] out to the god,

>> Superior, superior locality BX. We all know the truth.

>> The, yeah, I mean, the other thing that happens here with being able to get legal stock sometimes, we can't get those localities again.

>> Yeah.

>> Like,

>> we might, we might, you know, get rid of, sell them, whatever happens to them, and then we might not be able to get there. Might be no one there actually being able to get our facts or, what, whatever the local, you know, insert name of locality here. So then they're gone completely.

>> So what would be,

>> When you say you can't get them, is that because they can't be found, or because the, you can't get the permit for that area, or, or, or what? Because if they're all,

>> Um, it's, there's nobody collecting there in the, in the home range, and they've gone on to, you know, fishing or something like that, or logging trees or anything, and there's, you know, there was savvy pythons have been, you know, really hard to get hold of. There has to be something there. Established. Clasper is a, is a massive one. There's something we're allowed a legal, it's really small quota on it, but we're allowed a wild court quota of clas, the mucan pythons.

>> Mhm.

>> Now, there was a guy in Ambon that was legal and able to send those, uh, snakes out there. Well, he stopped doing it because the market, when you guys couldn't sell them for like 75 bucks each, which was what happens, which is, you know, insane to say. Obviously, the farm stopped ordering them. So, then he's out of a job. So, he's moved on to doing whatever he does now. And then you guys finally realized how cool, not you guys, everyone, um, realized how cool Malucan scrub python was. Everyone starts, demand goes up, the price skyrockets, and then, you know, we're scratching around trying to find a legitimate source of them that can do it legally. And, um, and, you know, it's hard work. [laughter] So, yeah, it's, uh, it's a catch-22. If it's too available, the price plummets, and nobody wants it. And then, you know, we lose some of these species. Savvy is is a massive one. Savvy pythons. Sorry. But man, Malucans, I miss them. I'm not going to lie. Those were some, those were some badass [ __ ] animals, dude. Scrubs in general. I mean, I feel like, you know, I'm locked in with my species, but if I had the space, I could add that next species, probably I'd probably go back to scrubs just because I miss them that much. They're just, they're that [ __ ] sick. You know what I mean? Um, but I don't know, man. What, which I got to ask you on that topic. How much of the scrub stuff are you looking to send over here?

>> Um, we've got a tricky one with the scrub pythons. Um, so I think is it Amethyst or band into Florida? So our distributors, Michael Cole in in Florida, he's our sole distributor for the USA. So we can only send him stuff like, uh, Tracier, um, Claster, Lepus, and stuff like that. So the amethystina, um, is hard to get over there. Basic, well, we, we got no choice. Uh, we can't get it over there. Um, but we work with a, a decent collection of scrubs. I've got, I think it's 15 mucans now that I'll be trying to breed to get captive bred ones. We got a few localities of, you know, Halahara, um, scrub pythons. So they're there, but it's not like on the forefront, especially for me with the amount of monitors and stuff I got to do. But, you know, every, is like I said at the start, as much stuff as I can captive breed is good for the farm, good for the customers, and good.

For me. But monitors priority. Monitors are number one. Yeah, that's my bread and butter.

Hey man, you can't take that away from you. I get it. Um, and what's cool is like the opportunity, how many of those you get to work with right now. It's like you're probably like a [ __ ] kid in a candy store.

Yeah. Insane. Yeah. Some of the stuff I wouldn't have even been able to be kept in in England, just, you know, crocodile monitors. There's no way I could have built anything that would be suitable for a crocodile monitor. And then, yeah, I mean, this is what is such, I'm so gutted about obviously the shipment that's gone out. I've bred four world-first species um of monitors this year um and then two, two of those species will be new to the hobby, like a brand new species to the hobby, which obviously I'll, I'll let people know when I've got enough of them together captive-bred, I'll be releasing those. So, like I said, this, this hobby is like massive, massive highs and then these gut-wrenching lows.

Preaching to the choir, brother.

Yeah.

As you go.

Yeah. I mean, and the condro is like another step above that from everything I hear. [laughter]

Yeah. Sure is. All right, Bill. Let's go around the horn and we'll do wrap-up topic. Uh, we only have about nine more minutes left and it's my cut-off time. Got to go [ __ ] clock in and [ __ ]

You got to take care of that newborn.

Yeah. No, dude. I wish I have Leo, dude. I have [ __ ] monster madness. [ __ ] I gotta, I gotta, I gotta like trick him into a bath. I'm getting pretty good at it, but some days, man. Anyways.

All right. Uh, Bill, what's your wrap-up question or topic for Chris?

Oh, boy. Chris. Chris, have you ever been to the US?

Um, only to fly into LA and fly up. No, I'm going to say no of, of I've never been there on any sort of holiday or anything. I'd love to go, obviously.

Okay. All right. Well, you're welcome here anytime, obviously. Um, yeah, I think it'd be awesome if you made a trip here, uh, checked out, uh, there's some incredible monitor collections here in the US and obviously some some Condor stuff, too. So, yeah.

Yeah, just so far away.

That's that's the issue. I mean, I've got, you know, I got Ryan and Nick over there who come on that trip with me. We had a blast with them. I've got Brian who's who's a friend who does the tree monitors. I've always wanted to go to like a Daytona show, so it's going to happen at some point, but um, it's I'm couldn't be any further away. It's probably easier for me to fly back to England and then come over to the US now. But yeah, thank you very much, Bill, for the

That was gonna be my second question. How often do you get to get back home or do you have any desire or reason to go back home? [laughter]

Um, not really, unfortunately. Um, yeah, I mean, my algorithm now is just how screwed up the UK is. Um, and yeah, I don't want to get into any politics or anything. I'm not into it. But yeah.

That would be another episode we could do.

Yeah. Um, I invite everyone over to here now. I was like, why you stay in England where it's cold and all this stuff's going on? Come over to Indonesia. I take you to Bali and we have you can get holiday out of it.

And uh, and my last question, Ryan Young is a mad man. He travels everywhere. What is the safety of traveling to Indonesia right now?

Um, yes, like ridiculously safe. Safer if you if you're talking about Papa or in Indonesia.

I'm talking about where you are.

Here is is absolutely fine. Yeah. Um, it's it's a weird country. You can go not from safety wise, but you where I am is is pretty like big poverty. It's like, but you drive from here towards like 30 minutes away and you've got a big mall. You've got Gucci being sold. There's such a divide in in Indonesia between the, you know, the rich and the poor. It's a what they call a developing country. But as far as safety, I probably feel safer here than I would in the UK. Um, Papa is another thing. But even, you know, where you find where I took Ryan and stuff in Raja A is it's really ridiculously safe. They want tourists there. As soon as you start heading east into Papa Newu Guini proper, then yeah, it's you, you know, that's when the stories come. You know, where Ari's going to Wina and stuff like that. I wouldn't go there. It's not safe.

Yeah. Ari has some crazy stories. I'll tell you that much.

Yeah. But in Jakarta, I don't think you could find, you know, it'd be exactly the same as is the uh is the US unless there's something political going on and then that happens anywhere. That happens in the States, happens in the UK. So.

That's it.

Don't get Marshall going on politics. Okay, we're ending the show.

Marshall, send us home, buddy. What do you got for Chris?

So, how does the farm? How do you have? I'm assuming you've got like protocols set in place for like you mentioned earlier, like you're always watching the weather. Are the cages set up and are the enclosures set up in a way that you have to do anything like manipulate them if the temperatures get to a certain point or like just like there's a, there's a whatever a typhoon coming through? Like, is there certain things that you do or are they designed to just ride it out?

Um, all the outdoor enclosures have got an area where they can get away from the the the elements, basically. Um, so a lot of them have got sliding roofs to keep the rain out. Rain's the real big problem. I'm not actually that bothered about temperatures dropping because it never gets like ridiculously, it's cold. It's um, but the next day they'll warm up uh sufficiently. It's not like prolonged periods. Uh, the main one is things getting wet and cold. Um, so we, we don't want that. So, um, yeah, all the um, those outdoor condra cages have got sliding roofs, basically. Um, so if we see any rain or any rain starts, the guys will actually go out and then just um, um, slide those roofs shut. Um, and then, um, yeah, indoors is is exactly the same. Uh, typhoons and stuff, we're pretty lucky. We get some pretty bad storms. Um, like I said, they can, they've every single cage has got an area where it can get away from the elements, basically.

Interesting.

Excellent.

Badass, man. What a great episode. I mean, my last thing for you, Chris. I mean, for anyone out there who's unsure, uh, but is still wanting to explore the options of imports, what what would you have to say to them? For anyone who's, they don't know how to maybe reapproach this, um, and also, have you've talked to everyone who is involved? Like, are you, is everyone on the same page right now, you know?

Um, obviously I've spoken to Ashley and then I'm getting, you know, different things going on with like this. I can just see in the comments now about refunds. That's something Ashley didn't know about. But if, if I've been speaking to the, um, the owner here, basically, and saying, if, you know, if people really can't trust us anymore and they really don't want to do it, we're going to have to obviously explore that. I'm, I'm really, my job is to is to speak to, you know, Ashley, the importer, and then Ashley speaks to the customers. If anyone wants to message me and wants any reassurance or anything, then they can come to me, and that's a unique situation from any exporter ever, basically. But, um, yeah, if, like I said, speak to Ashley. I, I'm relaying stuff back to Ashley all the time, trying to sort this, um, um, situation out as best for everyone. Like, we, we don't mind about, you know, the biggest thing for me is is the reputation on on our sides. Like, we got, we've got an issue with the with this shipment and we need to make it right as best we can so everyone's happy. Um, you know, as best as we can. So, yeah, that's that's that's all we can do about it. But Ashley's, you know, having to deal with the actual customers that she's sold to. I don't know. I don't know that step. Unfortunately, Ashley's like the, the middle person. You've got the, you know, the final customer, and then you've got me here trying to do everything I can from my end. Um, but yeah, nobody needs to, you know, lose any confidence or anything like that. Um, going forward, um, obviously we, we want to test anything. We're looking into that. Like I said, we might just shut down, uh, on the condo side of things until we can get all those, um, sort of protocols in place. I would like to get the stuff that I've bred sort of batch tested by someone that I trust. So, you know, send a certain amount of the ones that we do breed, you know, they might not show any signs. Send them over to one of our importers, get them to Nido Test there. If we've still got an issue, then then we're obviously going to have to look into more protocols. Um, so, yeah, that's all I can do, um, going forward. But everyone's got to be made right. That's the most important thing I want to get out there. And if anyone really wants to speak to me, then, you know, I'm an open book.

There you go. There you have it, my man. I appreciate you so much. Guys, please. Vera's Vault here on the Trap Talk Reptile Network. You've been doing a great job, man. You know, as much as you got so much going on over there, your commitment to the network does not go unnoticed. I appreciate all your work, dude. And again, I'm a big fan of everything you have going on over there, and I appreciate you, man. But guys, do me a favor. Go follow Chris right now. Find all the links in description below and hit him up if you have any questions. But it's a wrap for the homie Chris Appan, ladies and gentlemen. Give it up.

Well done, Chris.

Cheers, guys.

Thanks, Chris. Well done. Awesome.

Thanks, man. Have a good night, Chris. Or have a good day.

Good day. [laughter]

Cheers, guys.

Talk to you. Bye. Bye.

See you.

Good episode, man. What' you guys think?

That was awesome. I love hear I love Yeah, I love getting an outside perspective like that, especially with somebody who's uh able to keep them outside and kind of in their natural habitat. That sounds like uh really cool, really cool uh opportunity he got there.

Yeah. I mean, when stuff's out in the wild, I mean, when stuff's being kept outside, you see different stuff, different behaviors and all sorts of [ __ ] So, I can only imagine what he's experiencing working with him the way he's doing right now. So, but I wish him all the best, man. I really do.

Yeah.

Yeah. But again, all right, Bill, I'm sure you got to get going. You got quite the busy schedule ahead of you with all the babies and uh Marshall [ __ ] whatever you're doing. Um, love you guys. You guys are awesome. Red Mountain Herbs, go give him a follow. And of course, the mayor, Phoenix Reptiles, go subscribe. But it's a wrap for the homie Bill and Marshall. Ladies and gentlemen.

We'll see you guys next week, right?

See y'all next Tuesday.

Special. Next Tuesday. Christmas special.

Next Tuesday.

Don't want to miss it. Next Tuesday.

It's gonna be a good one.

I got something special for you guys. We all do. [laughter] All right. Have a good night, boys. See you later.

Later.

All right. All right, guys. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Um, please drop a comment in the comment section. Let me know what you liked best. But hit that like button if you enjoyed it. And also subscribe if you're not subscribed yet. If you hit that notification bell, select all, you'll be reminded of every podcast released out of the network seven days a week. The only reptile network giving you brand new episodes every day of the week. And you can listen to all these episodes on all major audio platforms. Um, thank you for all the love and support. Does not go unnoticed, okay? Appreciate all the messages that I get from you guys. Going to keep doing this and it ain't going to stop. Of course, if you're looking for exclusive content, please join the Trap Talk Patreon family. Find the link in description below. Connect to the Instagram Discord. It's awesome. Good stuff, man. Shout out to the sponsor, the Reptile Perch. Shout out to David Brahms. And also, shout out to um the Reptile Super Show happening January 10th and 11th at the Pomona Fairgrounds. It's going to go down, man. But that's all we have this on the tree Tuesday. Thank you so much for your support. Have a good night. And again, check out my sponsors before you hit the hack. Sorry for the interruption, folks. But a quick word from our sponsors. Green tree pythons, emerald tree boas, and plenty other boreal snakes have been quite the popularity here at the Trap Talk Reptile Network, which brings me to today's sponsor, the Reptile Perch. Head over to the reptile perch.com and reptile perch on Instagram. See what type of design PVC perch is best for your boreal reptile. But first and foremost, I would also check out David Brahms Green Tree Python availability on the website. You can also check out his Instagram just to stay current on any projects or any productions that he posts. Thank you so much, David Bron, for your ongoing support. Looking forward to seeing what you have to show in the 2025 season. When you think about building a good community and being a leader of that community, nobody comes to mind better than Mark Hager over at Texas Condro. That's right. Make sure you head over to TXondro on Instagram and also head over to Mark's website. See what he has available green Tree Python wise and be ready for quite the 2025 green tree python breeding season out of Mark Hager. He's a veteran in the green tree python game. one of the best and nicest uh breeders in the green tree python game. He's been putting on the whole state of Texas for as long as I've known him. So, if you want to see all the amazing other condro keepers out of the state of Texas, another good reason to go follow Mark Hagar over at txconros on Instagram. And again, head over to his website, texasconcondros.com. You can find all the links in the description below. So, thank you so much, Mark Hagar, for supporting the trap.

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Breeding & Producing Chondros Straight From The Farms Of Indonesia | AITT (Live)

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