Mohammad Marandi on Iran, Ramzy Baroud on Gaza, Dennis Kucinich on Israel's America

Ready to go. I did everything right and they indicted me and I don't know what the I'm doing.

Hello everybody and welcome to the Katie Helper Show. We are so excited to be here with you one of our special Friday daytime streams which lets us talk to people in different parts of the world. So we are so excited to be joined by you. We have an absolutely fantastic uh rundown today. Fantastic roster of amazing guests. Uh we will be speaking to in reverse order Dennis Cassinich, um Dr. Muhammad Mandi and uh Dr. Ramsey Bude. I will tell you more about them shortly.

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Okay, so we are going to bring on our first guest. Um we are absolutely thrilled to be doing that. He's been on the show before. Um he's just a a wonderful writer, wonderful journalist, really a wonderful human being if if I may. His name is uh Ramsey Barude. He's a journalist uh author, editor of the Palestine Chronicle. He is the author of six books including Before the Flood, Our Vision for Liberation, My Father was a Freedom Fighter and The Last Earth. He is a non resident senior research fellow at the Center for Islam and Global Affairs and his website is ramseybaru.net. So, welcome back to the show, Ramsey.

>> Hello.

>> Hi. Hi, Katie. Thank you for having me.

>> Of course. Thank you so much for joining. Um, and you know, it is uh pretty devastating uh that we this week marked the uh 1,000 day uh of genocide. So, we've passed the 10,000 day mark of genocide. Uh what are your thoughts on this? And did you expect it to last so long? And of course, you are are yourself from Gaza.

>> That's right. No, I did not expect it to last this long despite the fact that uh Katie throughout our history, especially in Gaza in particular, we have these kind of uh you know this these tragedies that kind of fold into other tragedies and we kind of then we kind of like cut off and start all over again. So uh Gaza has been under Israeli occupation since 1967. Uh then you know we stopped counting when the siege started in 2006 and then we started talking about well one year since the siege, two years since the siege. The siege got worse and worse got interrupted by some massive wars leading to the killing and wounding of tens of thousands of Palestinians. We thought that we saw the the worst of things and the world kind of got acclimated to the idea that Palestinians, you know, continue to subsist in that uh um horrific reality until the genocide happened. And yet we we kind of pushed the reset button and started counting, you know, on a year of genocide, two years, and now 1,000 days. So in a sense we are we are used to some part of the counting of tragedies but not to the extent of outright extermination and the world seems to be willing to coexist with this reality.

>> How does it feel? I mean, what is it like for you your kind of daily existence knowing that both your family is still there and knowing that the world, as you just said, is willing to coexist with this genocidal reality and enable it?

>> Well, you know, I'm I am a positive guy and I will insist on remaining positive. is just a thing that we Palestinians have to insist on because the moment we stop trying to be optimistic about things is just the moment that we are going to fall into deep despair from which there is no escape. So the optimistic side of me wants to say yes you carried out your genocide but you failed to to push our people out of Palestine. We remain there we remain strong. uh our sumud has moved from being a conceptual framework into something functional that we are using on a daily basis. Our relationship with Palestine hasn't changed. Our love for the homeland remains strong. We have as a culture emerged even stronger despite of everything that they have done to us. Which means that ultimately we are going to win this. We can't possibly lose when we have this much faith. this much tenacity, this these deep roots, uh this insistence on life.

But on the other hand, there is the everyday subject that you have to deal with. People calling me, family, cousins, uh their wives, their children, my my nephews, my nieces of dealing with the everyday life of, you know, not being able to survive. I mean, we had many members of my family killed in the genocide, but others have died since then. I mean, since supposedly the ceasefire was signed in October of last year. Um, some of them have been wounded in the war itself, but some have perished because of easily treatable diseases. Uh I had a uh uh you know I kind of the the daughter of my nephew uh a two-year-old girl. She had uh some complications when she was born during the genocide. She needed some surgery that could have been done easily uh to correct some artery in her heart. And they they waited on the waiting list for the longest time. They thought that because I'm I'm in America, I have the power to make things happen. Call the United Nations, bring the child out to Egypt for treatment. Of course, I failed him every single time. I couldn't do anything. I don't know anybody in the United Nations who was able to bring anybody. So, she died. She died in a tent. Um um all I can do is to register her story, write her story, publish the the testimonies of people in Gaza. Beyond that, we Palestinians outside this feels this this total despair that we are not we are not part of that community that is able to solidify somehow and survive together. we are alone in a sense and we also feel completely helpless that we can't help them in any meaningful way. So kind of between between these two balances, the real despair that individuals feel on a daily basis and the hope that comes from the collective and the power of the community itself. And I feel like we are in this limbo that we you know one morning we are feeling hopeful, the other morning we are feeling not. And and that's what's been in the last 1,000 days.

>> I'm so sorry for that. I mean I I always feel so silly saying that because I mean words kind of are insufficient right like I'm so sorry it just sounds like a platitude and it's so inadequate but I have a question for you which is um what can people here do right like you have family and friends you are are elevating their stories registering their stories as you said um so many people around the world feel this hopelessness and helplessness and despair but they are extremely um you know emotionally invested and and disturbed by what's happening in Gaza. What what are some things that people can do?

>> Well, there's the immediate thing that can be done now and there is the long-term uh um u aspects of of the struggle. The the immediate thing is um you need to put pressure on your governments, on your representatives. It actually does work. I mean there are certain things that are once in a while allowed to access Gaza through pressure coming from a certain European government that he did the call of a civil society. This is not just something in the imagination. This is real and it's tangible and it does help. There are thousands of Palestinian wounded who are unable to leave for treatment. Um we do have organizations whether through the United Nations or various NOS's that part of various national ecosystems in the US, Canada, the rest of the western world and beyond that are able to talk to the Israeli government, put pressure on the Israeli government and make that happen. There are various organizations like ENROA and many others that are actually like right now I haven't to be honest with you Katie haven't always been a big supporter of Enroa for historical reasons. I mean ONRA was supposed to be kind of you know just sustaining the refugees but without offering any political solutions because it had no such mechanisms no such mandate. So it's not like we Palestinians have been fighting for Onroa as if our political aspirations are linked to OnRoa. But suddenly Onroa is so important to us right now because as long as Onroa exists, as long as there's a recognition that there is a Palestinian refugee crisis and these are people who are linked to international law and resolutions, the right of return and this is what Kushner hates. This is what Netanyahu hates. That's what the board of peace in fact the board of peace as just few days ago they came up with this thing that says you know that there is no place for onroa in Gaza. Why is the board of peace so keen on removing onroa from Gaza? Why in is bin so keen on destroying onroa buildings in Jerusalem and taking selfies with the destroyed rubble? So now on is very important for us for obvious reasons. So support ona, support the friends of support organizations that sustain the Palestinian struggle uh and in in in its various dimension whether humanitarian or political or any other there are lawyers. I mean just that the fact that there is a there's a lot of fair against the Palestinian people and their supporters around the world. You can't open your mouth without being sued nowadays. You know I need these lawyers. We need these lawyers to work together to defend the supporters of Palestine, to defend the rights of the Palestinian refugees, and this is very important, who have made it to Europe for various reasons, maybe during the earlier part of the genocide. In some of these cases, they are mistreated. In some European countries, their children are taken away from them. We need lawyers to work together to ensure that the rights of those Palestinians are protected. So, there is so much you can do. You just need to look around you in your local and domestic sphere and look around you and see what can you do to help and support.

But of course there is the bigger picture here. And the bigger picture is that Israel, Zionism, extremism, racism, genocide, all of this need to be exposed to the rest of the world. As long as Israel is able to find the balance and the margins to exist as if it if it's a legitimate country, a legit a legitimate member of the United Nations as long as we carry Israel is able to carry on with these crimes in Gaza and mask them as if it you know the whole thing about Israel has the right to defend itself. Israel need to be exposed and it needs to be stopped. And I have so much faith in civil society, not because, you know, for any just conceptual random reasons, but because the numbers are telling us that the world is indeed changing. It's changing in Europe faster than the US, but we cannot discount the United States. 41% of all Americans as of February support and sympathize with the Palestinian people versus 36% with Israel. This is unprecedented. Earlier this month in June, another opinion poll came out that says 48% of thei of of Americans say that our support or American government support for Israel is too much. It needs to stop. So civil society has spoken and continues to speak and the numbers are changing. Now we need to use these numbers to push our local politicians, our representatives all the way to the Congress so that they would translate this existing support, sympathy, solidarity, Allah for Palestine into actual policy. So indeed there is so much that can be done. We just need to, you know, kind of be aware of our surroundings. Where are we? What kind of power? What kind of access? What kind of mobilization do we have? and how can we leverage that to achieve something different as far as policy is concerned.

>> right? Yes, there's always the lag um the policy lag behind the change in public opinion. But of course, we won't have the policy change without the public opinion. So, it's both dis it's discouraging, but it's also encouraging, right? Because it's uh what's that concept in philosophy? It's it's necessary, but insufficient, right? it's necessary but insufficient to have this change in in thinking and in in the way that these things are viewed. I remember seeing the film Encampments, the Encampments, and seeing um a journalist from Gaza, I can't remember her name, this is embarrassing. Um she's very wellknown. She has curly hair, uh very brave, she's won awards. Um and she was talking about the encampments and got tears in her eyes. Um, and it was very I mean, encouraging not to like sa sound like I'm congratulating uh Americans but it basam thank you basam someone wrote in the comments um it was encouraging to see that that our protest was providing something to the people of Gaza if that makes sense even just on an emotional level.

>> because I think we can feel so hopeless and helpless here.

>> Yeah.

>> Of course. I mean, I've I've lived in Gaza until my, you know, 20s >> and I I do recall I mean, you know, this whole emotional component and I know maybe even some of your listeners are say, can we please move beyond the emotional psychological help, but I can't even emphasize how important it is because when I lived in Gaza, I lived in Gaza under siege. Gaza, by the way, has always been under siege. It's just various layers of siege, you know. Um, some of you are allowed to leave some of the time. Some of you are allowed to leave all the time and never come back. None of you are allowed to leave depending on the mood of the Israeli military administration, the Israeli government. But it's not like when I lived in Gaza that the times were good. You know, it was during the first inif the siege was hermetic and things were equally terrible. But whenever the Israeli army would allow allow us to go to the um to the sea and we had very limited number of hours in which we are allowed to access the sea and and by the way I lived five minutes away from the sea during the first inifad seven years I didn't see the sea once five minutes that's the kind of siege we were living on because it was it was a a closed military zone the sea the Mediterranean sea for all of us and for some of us I mean no all of us living in Gaza very poor or you know vast majority of us are poor people the sea was the only outlet so you can't even access the only place that brings you a sense of joy but whenever we were allowed to access the sea we used to always look at the horizon and see these ships passing at the very you know the at the horizon and and we would you know start kind of thinking about who are these people. And there's a thing that we have in in Gaza culture. I I really don't know if they have it in the West Bank or not. I don't. But every time a name of a nation is mentioned, it's always we say, do they love us? Not do they like us, do they love us? We made so many decisions. Even when we watched football, now you have the World Cup going on. We watched football based or the World Cup based on do they love us or they don't love us because we were always so keen on knowing how did the world feel about us because we lived in total isolation. We didn't know if people knew or didn't. Whenever there was there were clashes in my refugee camp, we would listen to the voice of London, the voice of Monte Carlo. These are like the westbased stations. And we would be so delighted to hear, you know, that two young people were killed in the Nusraat refugee camp. That's my refugee camp in central Gaza. Two young people were killed. And even though it would be a terrible tragedy, you know that you know your peers, your neighbors, your friends were just buried in the martyr's graveyard and you would be thinking like, "Oh, thank God. Someone knows." And that knowledge we didn't know what they are going to do with that knowledge. But the mere knowledge that someone knows that there is a large group of people who are caged in abused discriminated against uh uh treated with so much inhumanity and so much violence. The fact that someone knows that means so much that maybe something will happen. Maybe someone will come to the rescue. Now Gaza knows that the world knows and that means so much for Gaza not not for the sentimental value of knowing but there is still that hope that maybe that knowledge will translate to action. Maybe that will mean solidarity and solidarity would mean a tangible difference on on the ground of Gaza. So that's why you have this intimate relationship between his between Gaza and the rest of the world throughout history, generation after generation now that the world knows what are they going to do with that knowledge. That's what truly matters at this point.

>> You know, it's interesting when you mentioned the your optimism. It made me think of this quote by Bobby Sans, the hunger striker who was killed um in a in a a prison um under Margaret Thatcher and he said, "Our revenge," he was a Republican, Irish Republican. He said, "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children." He wrote that once and I always think of that. I often think of that when I'm hearing um when I see the children of Gaza um and I see the joy that the people of Gaza demonstrate despite what is happening. And I'm not romanticizing, I'm not whitewashing. I mean, we see children who are killed like blown to bits. Um you know, it's like the highest per capita amputation rate uh now. And yet you also do see this joy.

>> You do. And and it expresses itself in so many different ways. During my generation, we dealt with it through humor. Maybe maybe humor now is not the most appropriate way of dealing or trying to process or internalize this just because because it's too much. It's too extreme for you to find a joke in any of this. But during my generation, we dealt with it through humor. the soldiers would come and raid the house and they would leave and and somehow we would go to the street and we start sharing the funny things we noticed about the soldiers. You know how that guy, that soldier was trying to break the only water tank in the house and he slipped and he fell on his back and we would laugh so hard with total disregard to the fact that we just lost our storage of water. But the fact that he fell, we found that funny. So we use the humor to deal with so much and I think during the inif I mean I am surprised that nobody actually wrote a book >> about how Palestinians use humor to deal with these issues. I tried in my book my father was a freedom fighter to inject so many of these stories as much as I could without belittling the tragedy of being a Palestinian refugee in Gaza. If you if you are up for it, I can tell you one of the stories I shared.

>> Yes, please.

>> Yeah. uh in in in the book. Well, during the the the you know the military curfews, the Israelis wouldn't you know they would cut off the uh electricity, would cut off the water and you know you can't leave your house otherwise you get shot and so forth. Well, you can't also, you know, get your garbage in the street and there's no garbage collection. But then in the summer you get suffocated by the garbage is piling up. I mean, one of the curfews during the Iraq war, they shut down Gaza completely. 57 days of total curfew. You can't leave. We were drinking, you know, rain water. Like we used to pray for rain, you know, for a summer rain, summer storm. And indeed, we our prayers were answered. And we were, you know, we collected all this dirty water that comes through the roof and we actually drank it in order for us to survive. But at one point my father was fed up and he decided it is time that we throw the garbage anywhere. It doesn't matter where it goes. Now the Israeli soldiers would go from one neighborhood to the other, knock at doors, you know, get people out, punch, slap, break bones, sometimes shoot, arrest, raid. But once they are out of the neighborhood, you have a little bit of a breathing space. Maybe you can actually open your door and talk to a neighbor. um you know maybe you can smoke a cigarette on the top of the stairs and so they would kind of try to steal these few seconds here and there until the soldiers are back. So at that point my dad decided that we are going to put the garbage all in one large plastic bag and throw it right in the middle of the street and let the soldiers deal with it. We we can't live like this. And that's exactly what we did. We we put the all the garbage in one large plastic bag and we threw it right in the middle of the street and we ran home and we locked the door. The soldiers come back. Now the soldiers are not sure what is that in the middle of the street. They were under the impression that there was a bomb of some kind. You would think that half of the Israeli army was hovering over that garbage bag. I mean, you had you had, you know, the tanks, you had helicopters, and then they bring robots that are poking through our garbage while the snipers and soldiers are hiding behind all the graves because we lived right by the martyr's graveyard. Everybody is hiding. All the snipers looking in every possible directions. The helicopters hovering above, tanks everywhere, the entire neighborhood under siege. And you have these robots poking the garbage to find out that it was just slices of watermelon and you know that sort of thing.

>> My gosh, we Exactly. What a metaphor. We laughed for ages over that. My dad there were, you know, my dad used to be a fighter back in the day in the Palestine Liberation Army. And his friends would say, "A warrior is always a warrior, Abu Anoir." That was his nickname, the father of Anoir. A warrior is always a warrior. You brought the entire Israeli army just to find out that you were throwing garbage in the street. And of course, a story like this will become the story of the neighborhood for days to come until another story comes and take over and so forth and so on. So culture for us is a mechanism of survival. these kids that you see dancing and doing depka and national songs on Instagram and Tik Tok um they are whether I don't think they are even aware of it but it's a generational continuation of something that they started many many years ago it's what we do defiance does not have to always be in terms of political slogans defiance can happen through dance through art through humor through numerous manifestation that psychologically sustain the Palestinian people.

>> right? Yeah. And what is you you mentioned sim before can you explain to people who don't know what it is because it's related I think it's humor.

>> Absolutely. I mean I I think you know this might sound sound a little bit weird. I think before the Palestinian people if we are to write the story of the Palestinian people there was the concept of karame dignity. I think dignity became before us. We were molded around the concept of dignity. We live for dignity. This is not a material struggle for things. We don't want things. We just want dignity. And dignity, everything branches out of it. Freedom branches out of dignity. Self-respect, self-love, community, camaraderie, all of these things and and resistance. They all come out of dignity. And then the Palestinian people. And with the Palestinian people comes Sumud. So Sumud translates to steadfastness. But I don't think so. I think this is, you know, there's an element of, you know, steadfastness. Sorry, resilience. There's an element of passiveness in this as if they do something to us and we are resilient that we do not break. I think it's more than that. I think it's a very proactive term. I think Sumud is functional. Everything that we do, the reason that people in Gaza remained in Gaza because of Sumud. Because by the way, Katie, a lot of people don't know that about 10 years ago, there was a time that Palestinians broke through the fence with Egypt through Rafa and they ran, they dashed into the Sinai desert in their tens of thousands because the siege was so horrific and they had no fuel, they had no food, they had nothing. They purchased what they wanted from Egyptian towns and from Rafa and they actually went back except of about 200 of them students who needed to go to their universities whether in Russia, Ukraine, Egypt or elsewhere. But the vast majority why did they come back? I mean you you just escaped a siege and a war that seems to be perpetual. Why did you come back? They came back because of Sumud because of that relationship they have with Palestine. In fact, I was in an interview a couple of days ago and it was a bit of a mainstreamish sort of interview where the host asked me, he says, "But Ramsey, I heard that people wouldn't leave Gaza because Hamas is not allowing them to do so." I mean imagine how this audacity that even our relationship and love and rootedness in our land somehow is being blamed on our fear that Hamas said if you leave I'm going to shoot you sort of thing you know but but it's not they are there because of sum it is something that is akin to our identity is something very close to our heart and it's the very reason that Palestinians I interviewed this this fighter for the book for um before the flood.

>> Uh or that's right. I interviewed his wife after he was killed in the early days of the war. Later on his eldest son was killed fighting and later on his third son was killed fighting. knowing their fate in advance, it just was not enough for them to to cower, to step back, to escape, or to allow fear to take over their lives. This is the kind of complexity that I I don't think even not only even mainstream media, but honestly academic conversation, even sympathetic to Palestine cannot possibly encapsulate or explain to the people. But yeah, we Palestinians exist beyond Hamas and Fat, exist beyond the United Nation and the Board of Peace, exist beyond Netanyahu and the ones who came before him, whether Paris or Chaon or Shamir, we will exist after all of them are gone. And when they are all gone, we are going to be there and we are going to look back and we are going to develop songs and nasheed and dances and jokes about that horrific period in our lives. But we will eventually move on.

>> Yeah. Uh so so you're saying simud it's not it's it's often translated as steadfastness but it's a more active thing than steadfastness.

>> It is definitely and we have seen that in Gaza in the last 1,000 days.

>> Wow. Yeah. Um, I also wanted to ask uh you a question um Ramsey about um let's see, do I want to go to that next or do I wanna I think I'm actually going to save that for when you and um and Dr. Morandi aren't together. So, I'm going to ask you a different question. So, in your excellent book Before the Flood, you write quote the deeprooted historical continuum between the Palestinian past, present, and future is the very essence of this book. End quote. And as you explore uh this continuum is in many ways rooted in resistance. So can you briefly um detail this history and some of the various stories of resistance throughout this history that you detail in the book?

>> Well, I situate the book Katie within within what French historians refer to as long history or long dur. This idea that we might be behaving in a certain way, but we might not actually be aware of the fact that our behavior is linked to a previous generation and ultimately our ancestors. Palestine has been a place of invasions. many invaders came and went starting with Alexander uh uh with his Macedonian army uh and all the way until you know Napoleon came and went and then the British you know the Ottomans and the British and ultimately the Israelis. Gaza in particular has fought every every one of them. Um and and sadly because the way that we Palestinians are forced to frame our history around the Balffor declaration, the NECBA and so on, we often we are often pushed to neglect that history that we fought Alexander. We fought Alexander for three months and and it took great deal of massacres that allowed him to finally conquer Gaza. Um, and we have done this. The same neighborhoods you hear about in the news right now, Zetun, Jibalia, uh, uh, you know, and these other areas, Kunis, they actually acquired their reputation in resistance long before there was a Zionism or a Zionist project or Zionist leaders and and that sort of thing. Um, and and that's what makes Gaza nearly impossible for Israel to subdue. Armed resistance in Gaza started did immediately after that.

>> Ramsey, I'm so sorry to interrupt you. Can you

>> Sorry. Sorry, Ramsey. I You're a little glitchy. Brad, is he glitchy for you, too? It's not me, right?

>> Well, just a little bit, but it's not. Uh,

>> well, I'm just thinking maybe he can. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ramsey. If you can refresh your you know how to refresh your page >> or if there is or >> any other p >> if you have any other extraneous things going on in your uh computer that might be

>> I do not you can show me how to refresh

>> uh there is a uh like a circle >> it it's going to involve you temporarily dropping from right here and so you would basically just rejoin um if you >> would you like me to do that? Yeah, I just want to make sure you're as good the quality is as good as possible. And if anyone in your house is like streaming stuff, you can ask them to not do that also. That could be fighting with it. Thank you.

>> But but we're Okay. Yeah.

>> I mean, worst case scenario, it's not

>> Yeah, it's tolerable. But if it if it can be better, that would be great, right?

>> Sure. Sure.

>> But yeah. Um, you know, in in the meantime, I can By the way, I have Brad, I downloaded a um Let me send this to you. Uh, in the meantime, I want to uh do a little preview of a um uh some of the uh recent um Oh, wait. Let's see if he's here. I was going to upload a video file to tease the uh let's see, where are we with this? To tease a a great clip of John Mirshimer. But let's see if Ramsey um Oops, I just did the same one twice. Let me remove this.

>> If Is it something that you can You said you sent it to me.

>> I didn't yet. Um but I'm uploading it.

>> Let me see how

>> David Borneo.

>> Okay, let's see.

>> Okay, great. Yeah. Um and everyone, this is a great time to encourage everyone to like the stream, to subscribe, and then become members, to become to become patreons. Okay, so now Ramsey is back and hopefully he will be less glitchy. Where is he? You see, Brad

>> and while he is rejoining, is it possible to send me the

>> Okay. Yeah. I mean, I uploaded them, but sure. One second. Also, we added a very important uh video that Nate sent you.

>> Yep.

>> Great. And that that could go that that name video could go in this section, I think. Well, okay. Thank you. Okay. All right. Great. So, sorry. So, sorry, Ramsey. Okay. Great.

>> I I hopefully it's a bit better now.

>> Okay. Yeah, I think so. Okay. So, I'm so sorry. Where were we? Um I should have What were we talking about the various acts of resistance?

>> The fact that resistance started in Gaza.

>> Oh, yes. And Alexander and Immediately after the there was a group of fighters called the there was no ideology at the time uh they were just they were peasants. They were the the peasants who were pushed out of their land. There was no Hamas to blame. There was no Soviet Union uh to to accuse of bringing communism to Palestine. There was nothing of that nature. They were just fine. Uh but of course the Israelis always had a term for every for every stage of Palestinian resistance. There were the communists. Well, in the beginning they were the mkharib. They called them the troublemakers. And and that after the troublemakers, there were the communists and after the communist there were the Islamists. There's always a reason, but nobody is asking why are Palestinians resisting. Why do they continue to resist? And why did they resist in the first place? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they were ethnically cleansed from their own home and that their historic homeland was stolen from them was robbed from them and they were massacred and their villages were burned and their harvest was burned and they were pushed into refugee camps, humiliated and degraded and maybe that's why they resisted. So the resistance in Palestine been going on for a very long time and is just a natural reaction to military invasions, conquest and that sort of thing. And the Zionists are not the exception. Palestinian resist not because of they are driven by any sinister ideology. They resist because that's what they have always been doing in response to military invasion and and and the sort.

>> right? Uh and in fact, um Brad, do you have that video that was that Nate sent to you just now? The latest thing? Okay, great. So I want to talk about the kind of pathization um of resistance, the way that resistance is pathized, the way that Palestinians uh Lebanese uh Iranians are portrayed as these violent brutes um who are willing to kill their own to send their kids off to die. Um I want to to to interject um recently released video. Uh now mo many of us knew that this had already happened. Um but there's recent video of uh basically um Israel ordering the Hannibal directive on October 7th. Let's take a look at this. And the Hannibal directive of course is when you are allowed to uh kill your own basically to prevent an exchange. Um yeah. Right now I would bomb the entire Sorry, let me let me let me slow this down. Can you start from the beginning? Um, one second. And um,

>> okay. Right now I would bomb the entire Gaza border with artillery.

>> Hit them with a blow so they'd have a real problem. It looks like they're on it. I wrote this to a mirror. They're not even getting fighter helicopters in the air. Sorry, Brad. You have to saw it.

>> They're not even getting fighter helicopters.

>> It looks They're not. You can pause it. Just pause it, please. They're not even getting fighter helicopters in the air. You think they're on it? No. On Gaza. Break it all apart along with the soldiers who got abducted. Those are the first moments in the police command center. This is where in which community even before the minister in charge arrives before it is decided what will be broadcast and what will be censored. There's

>> wait are you filming me? You could film me when I give you permission. That's Bangabir speaking. Please take this out.

>> Okay. So, this was recently um revealed. Uh uh what are your thoughts on this?

>> Well, it it shows that the intention was clear from the very beginning u what the Israelis have been uh uh doing in Gaza. It was a decision that was made from the very start and it really kind of gives a lot of credibility um you know to to the to the claim that the Israelis had intentions in Gaza even before October 7 because the the the nature of the Israeli let's call it response just for the sake of argument the nature of the Israeli response the the the the immediate plans that were brought into action um you know that that ranged from Well, genocide being the the most minimal of these plans all the way as um minister of heritage uh the minister of heritage at the time proposed to drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza. Um I mean all these plans were already there. They were not you know conjuring up plans uh at the spare of the moment. uh which really tells us I mean to that that should explain to people that Israel had that plan initially made for Gaza maybe the October 7 events have sped up these plans but the plans were were were just and in fact the fact that he would say before the minister in charge even arrives let's do one two three that was already in action that was already decided upon way ahead.

>> right yeah and I just I think it's so rich. Um uh uh that that you and the Iranians, as I said, um uh sorry, one second. That you and and Iranians and Lebanese um as I said, um are portrayed as these violent death obsessed um fighters and Israel would never kill anyone intentionally um much less their own. Right? You guys are always pathized as sending your young off to die. And where's the outcry and outrage about this about Israel being able to willing to kill its own? I mean, the double standards are striking, let alone obviously the way that they just absolutely massacre Palestinians.

>> Well, that's right, Katie. But I feel like there are two contexts here that are important. Number one, the fact that this is the language they use against Palestinians, against, you know what, against every liberation movement that fought against every colonial power anywhere, not just in the global south, but even in Ireland and elsewhere. This is something that's been going on for a long time. The dehumanization of those who are resisting um and putting their lives on the lines and sacrificing everything. They were called the the the the wild dogs of Australia and they were called the terrorists of Palestine and so forth and so on. So this is something that's been that is just the nature of colonialism. That's the discourse that accompanies colonialism. Well the colonialist colonialists always perceive themselves as you know those who are on civilizing missions. Those are who are coming to uh you know bringing prosperity and stability and so forth and so on. I mean, look at what the Americans are saying constantly in the Middle East. Stability, stability. How can you be the very military that is pulverizing little children in a school in Iran and at the exact same press conference at the exact same moment, you continue to talk about stability and peace and peace and stability. But the other dimension to this, I think it's really important if you would allow me Katie to be a bit critical here of us because I feel like the power of design propaganda and Western media is so enormous that it lift no margins for us to actually say, you know what, it's okay to resist. In fact, you have to resist. It's your freaking moral duty to resist because if you don't resist, your people are going to be pushed into the desert. Palestine will be gone. Every it's going to be over. You who is going to defend who if I was living in Gaza right now and someone comes to my house with a mekava tank when my children are there sleeping in their bedroom to come to to demolish the house on top of them. What should they do? What should any human being with an aota of carriage does? But the issue here is that because of the margins don't exist for us to have a realistic rational conversation in polite companies in mainstream anything including academia and even including within left leftist circles we are constantly on the defensive. Oh not all Palestinians love Hamas. When the issue is not about

>> offline, right?

>> In the 70s there was no Hamas. There were the communists running Gaza. There were the PLP running Gaza. There were the socialists in in South Lebanon when the Palestinians were fighting along with the Libanese. We had hundreds of women fighters. I mean, how progressive can you actually get that you have women on the front lines? Had nothing to do with Islam, religion, theocracy, none of that. But no, every single stage we constantly apologize. We constantly distance yourself as if those who are fighting are actually part of the problem. Quite often I hear Palestinians and others speak about extremists on both sides. So bing ve is now being compared to those who are resisting to defend Gaza or Janine or Tul Karim. Why should that be rational? So we need to challenge that. We need to be bold enough and say if you condemn the resistance in Gaza, you condemn the resistance against every colonial movement from Cuba to Venezuela to Kenya to South Africa to Vietnam. And if you do that, I don't know if you will even have a moral leg to stand on.

>> Right. Yeah. Well, well, very well said. Um yeah, it's true because I hear this again and again um from even from people who are good on this right and who are critical of Israel but they say like Palestine is not Hamas or all Palestinians are not Hamas. Now there is a question I would love I'm I want to bring on our next guest and have you guys talk about the relationship between Gaza and Iran. But Ramsey I am going to have you back on soon to talk about your next book. And what I do want to ask with you uh talk about with you, so I'm gonna remember this is the how Palestinians are not a monolith and what they think about Hamas, right? And and I want to get into that with you in a way that doesn't kind of um do exactly what you said, right? Which is um dismiss resistance as inherently like automatically dismiss resistance as bad and think that the way you defend Palestinians is say don't worry, they don't all want to resist. right now. That's I I agree with you. But then I I do want to get into the question of how different people see resistance or see Hamas or see October 7th. But again, this is a very different conversation that I'm having with you because obviously I reject the premise that you know you some idiots in the in the comments even said this like um what did they say? Like you started a war and now you're crying.

Like that whole framing as if October 7th came out of nowhere. So you and I will have a very different discussion from the one that we see in the mainstream media. But I do want to bring in our next guest because I I think that you guys will have a a fascinating exchange. Um, and this is none other than um show fave, fan fave uh professor uh of orientalism and English literature at the University of Tehran uh Dr. Muhammad Mandi. Welcome back to the show.

Hello. And hopefully we won't have the glitchiness that we had last time. Okay. Hi Dr. Mandi. How are you? Did I curse it by saying that? Last time it was my fault.

>> Well, okay. Are you Let's see. Um, can you hear us?

>> I can hear you. I guess my connection's not that much better.

>> No, it's it is a little bit better. I think there's less of a delay, but welcome back to the show. Um, it is always wonderful to to see you, especially given what's happening right now to your country of Iran.

Well, thank you very much for having me. It's always a great pleasure being on your show, especially when Ramsey is on.

>> Great. Yes. Well, I wanted to ask each of you about the relationship between the places that you come from, the interconnection, what the effect of the war in Iran is having on Gaza and in all West Asia, and also what effect what is happening in Gaza has on Iran.

It's uh it's very it's very complicated what happens was happening in I mean let me put it this way the in Iran before the revolution the revolutionaries uh had three major foreign policy grievances when it came to the sha and uh one was that decisions were not made inhan they were made in Washington and back then in London too. The second was uh South Africa and the sha was supporting the apartheid regime. Uh almost all of its oil was uh coming from Iran and the revolutionaries wanted to cut off ties with apartheid South Africa and to support the the resistance in southern Africa as well as South Africa and the frontline states. And the third of course was Palestine. And uh at that time the sha was providing the sha the sha was also providing the Israeli regime with a large segment a large amount of its oil and the relations were quite good. And Iran uh the revolutionaries wanted to cut off ties with the regime all ties and to recognize the Palestinians as the um uh legitimate representatives of that land.

So this this narrative this discourse this belief this ide uh ideology uh existed before the revolution and so when the revolution succeeded obviously Iran immediately cut off ties with apartheid South Africa as well as the Israeli regime and Iran's foreign policy shifted uh completely towards supporting liberation movements uh across the world support for Cuba U Nicaragua back then of course we lived in a different world from now but in any case uh Iran uh tilted towards the non-aligned movement and uh and other such u entities that were championing the global south at a time when the world was divided between the eastern block and the western block. Gaza itself wasn't uh so much the focus of attention. It was Palestine and back then the representative of the Palestinian people who we all knew about was uh Yaser Arafat Abu Amar and uh the PLO back then and Fata. They were the the names that were recognized and I was listening to Ramsey before coming on. uh back then as he uh was basically uh pointing out there was no Hamas and uh the just like in when the Israeli regime invaded Lebanon in 1982 and took um the capital Beirut and carried out huge massacres. In fact, um, uh, Ronald Reagan at that time, he was the president and he he called this a holocaust. What the Israelis were doing in Lebanon, in just one instance, they slaughtered uh, by some estimates 3,500 Palestinians and Lebanese Shia in a refugee camp called the Sabra Chhatila refugee camp. Um, to the south of of Beirut, uh to to the north of what we now know as Dahier and to the south of Beirut. And they did that with the support of their the Israelis did it by using the the Lebanese forces, a fascistic organization which was closely allied to the Israeli regime and continues to be closely allied to the Israeli regime and to Western embassies in Beirut. Back then in 1982 when they took Beirut and were massacring people there was no such thing as Hezbollah. It did not exist. So Hezbollah was born effectively in 1982 and it began to gradually grow and it led the resistance until ultimately it expelled the Israeli regime from Lebanon in the year 2000.

So back then when the revolution in Iran happened in 1979, February the 11th, uh there was no Hamas, there was no Palestinian Islamic Jihad, there was no Hezbollah. Uh but there was a Palestinian people who were being subjugated, who had been expelled from their homes, who were living in a concentration camp called called Gaza and who were for the most part living as refugees in the West Bank among other Palestinians in Jordan, in Syria, in Lebanon, in Egypt. And uh again there were so there again there was no such thing as Hamas or or Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah or anything like that. But the Palest but the Iranians the revolutionaries had a very very uh sympathetic um view towards the Palestinian people and the people in apartheid South Africa. And that continues till until today. of and I think that uh the genocide in Gaza, the ongoing genocide, it's not over. Every day they're murdering people and children, um that has only intensified Iranian sympathy and uh support for the Palestinian cause. The war I think has had uh not just regional ramifications I think has had global ramifications because um the United States lost the war and no matter how one looks at it wasn't just that Iran survived the war. It was that Iran till the very last moment of fighting was firing back and and hitting striking US bases, striking Israeli bases, Israeli regime assets and uh and the assets of those countries that were hosting US bases and collaborating with the United States. uh so much so that even neocons in the United States and major enemies of Iran called this a defeat for the United States and um the uh the godfather of the neocons said that this was the greatest defeat that the United States had ever experienced militarily.

>> Kagan, Robert Kagan.

>> Right. Yeah. Uh part husband to Victoria Nuland.

>> That's right. um the who gave cookies to the the people launching the coup uh Maidon coup in uh in Ukraine. Um

>> that's right.

>> Thank you for that uh analysis. Ramsey, what is your response to that or what would you like to add?

you know when uh first of all such great pleasure to uh to share platform with professor Mirandi always um you know it doesn't just leave you with with knowledge and and sound analysis but also hope lots of it uh and I've been listening to him at every opportunity I get and uh I'm sorry what has befallen your country uh professor but also uh Mabuk uh for for the resilience and the summood of the Iranian people in the face of this aggression completely unjustifiable on any ground. Uh but in a sense it's almost

>> and is congratulations, right?

>> That's right. Yeah. But I'm I'm almost

>> that's I I I don't want to use the wrong term and and kind of get slaughtered for it, but I'm almost relieved that no one really came out for Iran aside from the various resistance camps in the region because, you know, we we've been kind of always kind of hedging our bets on this big country or that country to come to the rescue. And yeah, there was some support here and there, but at the end of the day, this was an Iranian project. And it was an Iranian project that is founded on the power of the people. My real fear wasn't Iran's ability to resist. It was how will the people react? And when I saw millions of people in the streets of all walks of lives and all ideologies and all shapes and colors all was incredible. I knew that this means victory because we've seen it happen a lot before. But also it's important to denote here that when the genocide started in Gaza, we were desperate for any solidarity to come from anywhere on on a a floating boat coming down the Mediterranean on you know a country like South Africa filing you know for genocide claims at the International Court of Justice. But when we actually start seeing solidarity manifest itself in real uh organic resistance coming from the Middle East, you know that you are at the dawn of a new era. Israel knew that and I think this is something that that future historians were right about. Maybe not today's history because everybody is caught in the moment. But we have never experienced that in Gaza, in Palestine. You know, we've experienced failures in the military front. We experience lack of preparedness. I'm not saying lack of will or lack of good intentions, but always this hazard approach to war. We are always at the receiving end. We are always the ones who are barely trying to survive and eventually get defeated militarily. But that's not what happened this time around. And I think because these various resistance movements were rooted in popular supports and that what made all the difference. There was an interview conducted by with an um uh Mushi Figlin. I believe he he tried to run against Netanyahu for the leadership of the liquid party and he's still a figure an important figure in Israeli politics and he said something really interesting few days after the genocide he said what worries me about October 7 is that the Muslims are not afraid of us anymore

>> the Muslims not the gazins not the West Bankers not the Palestinians even not the Arabs the Muslims. There was a psychological element here that has been broken during the genocide. We broke it before I remember during the first inif when we fought back against the Israeli army using you know slingshots and rocks. There was a psychological component that broke that our fear that this is the mighty Israeli army disappeared. And I was telling you Katie about the humor, how we dealt with a lot of this with the humor. Well, you don't make fun at things unless you have a sense of ownership over it. We felt empowered as a people without firing a single shot. And Mushe Figan understood that psychology. And I think the genocide was was partly because they were trying to break the will and the spirit and the new found strength of the Palestinians and by extension the Lebanese and the Yemenes and ultimately the Iranians and every single thing they have done failed and every time they tried to regain the initiative the so-called deterrence they failed and that failure continues until today. I don't know how will the Israelis deal with this, but I know that something fundamentally has changed in terms of the geopolitics in the Middle East, in terms of the future in the Middle East, and more importantly, in terms of the psychology of the Middle East and its relationship towards the Zionist regime and towards American imperialism.

>> Yeah. Well, that's um fascinating. Um and I I actually wanted Do you have a response to that, uh Dr. Mandi? Not I I have another question but just wanted to know if you wanted to say anything in response to that.

>> I I think I mean I agree completely but I also think that it goes beyond the region too in in the west itself people um even though the censor uh censorship and the pressure uh has been rising throughout this period uh against disscent and against Palestinian supporters. In Europe, it's worse than in the United States. But you see uh people increasingly becoming vocal about their anti-Zionist views and uh I'm sure you've discussed this many times and I'm not an expert on on these issues. You have many people who who know about these issues much better than I. um the Democratic Party in New York for example and the fact that in Jewish neighborhoods or in neighborhoods that are have a very high Jewish population you see candidates uh who are anti-ionist Jewish non-Jewish >> uh winning uh the elections winning this the the uh elections within the party and I think that is shows that this uh uh sense of uh this this the fear has been uh the cycle of fear has been broken and the youth u Jews, Christians, Muslims, people from all walks of life especially in the United States uh they've uh they've come out and decisively uh shown the the United States and the rest of the world that the mood in the United States is is not pro-Israel. it is actually on the whole anti-Israel and is increasingly becoming so. The same is true to a lesser degree in in the Republican party, but the the change in the Republican and public party is just as profound, not as it's coming later than in the Democratic party. And of course, independence uh they've they've they've all changed and they've evolved. And I think that's it's that's runs in parallel with what uh Ramsey has been saying about our region that people uh have they're no longer uh intimidated. They're no long they no longer live in fear. They know that the empire u does not have the power and authority that we were told it had. that it was allseeing and that it was all powerful and that there was nothing that we could do about it. That was I mean when the war against Iran began the friends of Iran across the world thought the country would collapse in a couple of days and I'm talking about those powers that Ramsey uh was alluding to the powerful countries u and also regional countries and many intellectual friends of uh of uh the Islamic Republic. They thought that it would collapse. They thought it would collapse last year during the 12- day war despite the fact that it didn't and ultimately it won the war and the Israelis sought a ceasefire. Uh again, this time around when the United States brought in all of its uh capabilities, they were certain that it would fall. and uh when it didn't and when it hit back and and then there was this after a week or so people were saying well if Iran survives this war it wins but what happened was that after 39 days it was clear that Iran was hitting back just as hard as the Americans were firing at the Iranians and you know you had not just the United States it was a coalition of countries regional countries in the Persian Gulf Jordan NATO the the head of NATO has now admitted openly that they were assisting the United States. So you had this huge coalition against what Ramsey rightly points out is Iran and its ally its regional allies. So I think something has broken uh in the last three years and it's not just in our region. It's not just I mean again look at in Lebanon uh dur after the previous ceasefire uh between Hezbollah and the Israeli regime all of the commentary uh in this region uh oops Oh no, the MSAD is back at it. Uh Ramsey, are you are you

>> in the west in uh Okay. Can you hear me now?

>> Yes. You were just frozen for a bit, but we we can hear you. Yeah.

>> Okay. So, what what I was saying that Hezbollah despite being surrounded to the east, you have the proxy government in Damascus, a US proxy government. Then you have a proxy government in Beirut and Hezbollah has already been destroyed. But we saw how during the past few months, Hezbollah was battering the Israeli regime even though Hezbollah was surrounded. And it obviously was it performed extraordinarily well. So you see civil society in western countries, you see public opinion across the world. uh you see uh the public in our part of the world changing and evolving and I think this is this is the worst thing possible that the that that could happen for the Israeli regime. I think that, you know, they they can gloat about taking 70% of uh Gaza, but they've uh antagonized more than 70% of the world and permanently. And those young people are going to increasingly become powerful and those older pro-Israeli people are gradually going to be leaving the scene. the pol. So, uh I I think that the change is profound. Even though when we look up, we see clouds, dark clouds, and and the world that we live in looks quite dystopian. uh when you wake up in the morning and see your uh social media feed and dead babies in Gaza and flattened apartment blocks in Lebanon. uh it it does look it does looks I I would agree that it sometimes may seem quite hopeless. But I think that the shift and the the changes that are taking place across the world are so extraordinary and so fundamental and so deep from New York to Tehran from that. Um, I was just saying that I think that the changes are so fundamental that I think they cannot be ignored.

>> Right. Um, Ramsey, I've held you uh past your your uh your bedtime or past how long I was saying. If you need to leave, of course, please uh feel free to give any final thoughts that you have. Um, or you're welcome to stay on, but it Yeah, it was longer than we planned. Yeah,

>> you know, perhaps it's it's best for me to leave the stage to professor uh uh uh Mirandi u to uh kind of continue with this and uh just want to thank you very much uh uh Katie for the opportunity and of course

>> uh would love to connect again in the future and also looking forward to sharing platform with uh our dear professor again.

>> Yes. And look so someone wrote we don't see enough of Ramsey so that we will definitely have you on. In fact, we already said we're going to do another interview about your next book. So, we'll have you on perhaps with some other co-writers, co-editors, I mean. But yes,

>> that's right. And I have two for the the next book, Elan, right?

>> And Romana Rubio. That's right. Yeah,

>> exactly. So, we can bring all three of you on hopefully.

>> Excellent. Excellent. Looking forward.

>> Well, it's always a great pleasure being on with Ramsey. He's his knowledge is

>> it's ex is extraordinary.

>> Yeah.

>> Thank you, brother. Means a lot of you.

>> Okay. Have a great night, Ramsey.

Okay. And it's a night it's night for where Ramsey is. So, um well, okay. So, um Dr. Morandi, I have uh some more questions for you. There is a uh New York Times article um from July 2nd. Um US officials believed Israel was plotting to kill Iranian negotiators. Uh any Israeli attempt to kill Abbas Argotchi, the foreign minister, or Muhammad Galibbaf, the parliament speaker, would have derailed peace talks. American officials feared. Now, this is I'm sure not at all uh surprising uh to you. Um in fact, you when you went on the accompanied these negotiations in Islamabad, you uh you feared for your life. Um and and Trita Parcy tweets about this story. I'm just going to show what said. Um, wow, let this sink in. Wow, let this sink in. Um, at Wow, let this sink in. After the first round of US Iran talks in Islamabad, US intelligence picked up that Israel was planning to assassinate the Iranian negotiators as they were returning to Thran. The US told regional states to alert Iran. Israel's state that on paper is a US partner, but in reality is so extreme in its obsession to undermine US diplomacy that even it tries to assassinate those the US engages with in crucial negotiations. I can't recall a government as terrified of as peace I can't recall a government as terrified of peace as the one running Israel. So uh what is your response to this and also talk about uh how you anticipated something like this when you were uh accompanying negotiators?

>> Well uh first of all I the story is is is not true in in one sense and that is that the Americans did not alert Iran about anything. uh the Americans uh I'm I'm sure that the Israeli regime was contemplating something like this and uh I'm sure that the Israeli regime would not carry it out without American consent or at least without informing the Americans. And uh Trump himself has constantly has repeatedly threatened the negotiators. He has murdered negotiators. He has murdered Iranian leaders. Uh he's murdered kids, little school ch girls too. But that's a that's a different story. So I mean he said that he's going to obliterate Iran. He's going to take Iran back to the stone age. He's going to wipe out the civilization. I mean these are the rantings of a of a deeply sinister person. And so I don't see any difference between the mentality of the Israeli regime and the mentality of the leaders in Washington. Uh both both slaughter children. They the American armed forces slaughtered kids in schools and in gymnasiums and elsewhere the Israelis did it their own way. But um but yes when when we went to Islamabad I I was with the delegation on the flight when we were going there. I don't recall if it was before we flew or when we were in Islamabad that um an an an opinion piece came out from the Washington Post which I'm you remember and it was saying that the negotiator should be killed. Um at that time I was telling the negotiators that I think that Dr. Alib who is the chief negotiator should not uh travel back with us on the plane. And I think they have to they should bring him back on some in some other way. And uh they too those who were in charge of security and you know they were contemplating what has to be done and what the Iranians did was that they decided with the help of or with the coordination of the Pakistani government. the Iranians change changed their planes and uh we got on a different plane and instead of flying back to Tehran, we flew back and I think I said this on your show before, but we flew back to uh we flew back to the city of Mashad, which is near the Afan and Tarkmanistan border. And then we took I took a train to Tan, which was about a thousand kilometers, I guess. I don't know exactly but we were I was on the train for seven eight hours at least eight eight eight hours probably uh till I got to Tehran. So uh the Iranians were concerned that the United States or the Israelis would carry out an attack and since they were their partners that it would have been a joint attack just like during the war the Israelis would bomb one place the Americans would bomb another place but they were doing it all in coordination. So yes, and and in the recent negotiations, uh I'm sure you recall Trump also threatened to murder the ne Iranian negotiators. So it's, you know, it's not an Israeli regime thing. It's an American thing as well. I mean, American governments, not the American people,

>> of course. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting. Of course, we should always be skeptical of uh the New York Times and who knows who who planted that story, right?

>> That's Perhaps perhaps they're trying to appeal to their America first base maybe by by trying to imply that they um although they don't come off that well in this but but I do think it's probably as as you say there is always both sides both but Netanyahu and and Trump both like to pretend that they're fighting with each other more than they really are to to appease their own domestic um base. Um, I wanted to ask you about a uh Brad, are you I'm not sure if Brad is here. He has to help bring in the next guest, so I'm going to screen share. Um, this is a clip of um of JD Vance um uh Vice President JD Vance on the Daily Wire's Michael Newell show Tuesday commenting on the supposed u memorandum of understanding signed between the US and Iran. So, let us take a look at this video and apologies to all that we're uh unfortunately having to play uh JD Vance, but I do think it's it's relevant. Okay, one second. So, I think what the president has told us to do is use thisou to sort of refill the world's oil economy. >> Yeah. to refill some stocks and then to see where the hand is. And so I think what the president has told us to do is use thisou to sort of refill the world's oil economy. >> Yeah. >> To refill some stocks and then to see where the hand is. >> Okay. So what are your what are your thoughts on this? And you um you yourself uh tweeted uh in response I I'll I'll reveal one of your responses. uh Iran has already restocked and is prepared to crush Trump's economy. So what what uh what else would you like to say in response to this video?

Yeah, I I it just shows that how uh hypocritical and cynical the US government is and that it is completely dishonest and it uh at least though the Trump and Vance and and this particular uh team, they're more open about uh their hypocrisy and their dishonesty. Uh I think it was um uh Pompeo. It was Pompeo who said we we lie, we cheat, and

>> yes,

>> we steal

>> in the CIA taught to do. Yeah,

>> that's right. So these people are are much more open about it than let's say the the Obamas of the world, the Clintons who pretended to be something very different and they weren't. They were they were the same. But uh but yes, I that's something the Iranians from day one were uh expecting and with the signing of the MOU, the Iranians immediately went with the ceasefire, but also then with the signing of the ceasefire, they immediately went to work to prepare themselves for war. So the Iranians have um have have, you know, they're exporting large quantities of oil. Um, a lot of oil was trapped on tankers in the Persian Gulf during the siege on the ports. That has all been sent to markets in Asia. So, they're trying to uh uh address economic difficulties, deal with uh the needs of the the population. It's a large country with a large population. and also to rebuild or or strengthen or uh the the Iranian military capability. So, they're they're expanding their underground missile bases, underground uh command and control centers, building new missiles, using new technology. Um, it's not as if though it's just Trump and Vance that have, you know, uh, that are preparing themselves. The Iranians are preparing themselves, too, because they know how dishonest the United States is. But I think the world is in a much more vulnerable situation today than it was four months ago. And uh, I don't see the United States being able to defeat Iran. I think it'll be a

>> Uh >> oh. Maybe he got frozen because he said something so heretical.

>> Okay.

>> You said you don't think uh the United States will be able to defeat Iran.

>> Yeah. I mean the United States couldn't defeat Iran during the 39-day war. And now the Iranians, they've learned from their experience in this war. I mean during the the Iranians after the 12- day war they learned they had learned a lot from that war and they prepared themselves for this much bigger war and they per performed better in the in this war than they even did during the 12-day war which was the firepower of the Israeli regime is nothing compared to that of the United so uh the Iranians have learned of US capabilities its strengths its weaknesses and uh it's much it's more confident about its capabilities it's seen mean that it can fight and win a war. Uh, you know, as I said before, people, many Iranians didn't think we we could win. Many did. Many did. I did not believe Iran would be defeated. I did think Iran would win the war. I didn't think it would be so decisive. But um but in any case, the the the confidence of uh uh people in the country has increased. The economy of of course is worse off than it was before. There's no doubt about that. But uh but Iran knows that this is a a fight for its survival. So but in any case, what Vance does is that he just discredits the United States because people across the world see this and say, "Wow, these people, you can't trust them with anything." And any country that wants to do any deal with Trump or Vance or or uh the secretary of state or anyone else uh they will always keep in mind that these people you know they say one thing but they're in in reality they're planning something else. You cannot trust uh the regime in Washington for anything. And um I just believe that this is uh another sign of the decline of empire. Empire was more confident about itself. Behave in such a cru

Sorry, Dr. Miranda, you're frozen again. If you once you hear this again, if you could just repeat in full what you just said. You think that this is the sign of decline of empire and decline or declining empire and maybe he can refresh.

>> Would never use such crude language in such a sinister light. It always and yeah, I think as a

>> Is it okay? If you're Yeah, maybe do you mind trying to refresh just cuz what you're saying is always as always so interesting and we missed out a bunch of that. So maybe if you refresh your window,

>> Brad, do you have any other suggestions

>> besides what's Ethernet? We're going to send you an Ethernet cord. It's probably a thousand million dollars now.

>> And and our and our next guest is backstage.

>> Okay, great. Perfect. and everything is working right on that end.

>> But yeah, um refreshing.

>> Yeah. And maybe because like that country is being, you know. Okay, let's see. Okay, great. So, let me remove that one. Okay, great. So, what were you you were saying that this is a sign of the empire and decline?

Yeah, I think I think it's a sign of a of a declining empire because um an a competent empire does not speak in such a way. I mean, they always speak about democracy and freedom and how they're rational and how the their victims, whoever they may be, are irrational and and uh they they they love death or they, you know, they they're they're unreasonable and so on. And uh that language has disappeared. And it's not just Trump. If you look at uh anyone who sub I mean, if you look at the the liberal media which opposes Trump but during the war the language that it was using was more low uh of the uh of the negotiators. That's not something that the United States used to do. I mean, I've been brought up to dislike Kissinger, of course, for for very good reason, and I'm the same is true with you, but I I've never heard Kissinger or anyone like Kissinger say, "Let's murder the negotiators or let's so this is this sort of the crudeness that we see today, I think, is reflective of a desperation in of the empire and which is I think a good thing for the American people. The empire is is horrible for the United States. It's horrible for the American people. And when I was young, when I was a child, uh, in the United States, I left the United States when I was almost 13. The United States was the country where all the nice bridges were, where all the, you know, the the Lincoln Tunnel. I remember the first time I saw it. I went through it. It was like amazing. This was like amazing technology back then. The best airlines, the best, you know, the best of everything. And then ever since then it's been all downhill and uh it's largely because of u late stage capitalism but most but more than anything else neoliberalism has been accompanied by um uh by endless wars and the empire has overextended itself and now it's collapsing and hopefully when it collapses the American people will be freed from this class of, you know, the Epstein class and they can go back to rebuilding their lives and hopefully live a better future.

>> Right. Dr. Mirandi, do you have like five more minutes because I would love to um uh but I know you're you're so booked, so you may have another appearance. Uh and you also may just need to go to sleep. I would love to have you on with our next guest for like five minutes, but is that possible or

>> Sure.

>> Great.

>> Sure. Just one thing I I'll definitely stay online. Just one thing is that I think whenever there are three of us,

>> it makes it worse.

>> My connection becomes less stable. But yes, I'm I'm I'm fine.

>> Okay. Well, you know, maybe what I can do is I can have you on I'll I will remove I'll push you backstage and bring you back on like when I have when when it's your turn to talk. We'll try that. Okay. Um so excited to bring on to this conversation. Um we have not had him on in a while. It's way uh it's long overdue. Um and I am uh talking about Dennis Cassinich who served as mayor of Cleveland um from 1977 to 1979, US representative uh in Ohio from 1997 to 2013 during which time he introduced articles of impeachment against both President George W. Bush and Vice President Richard Cheney for lying to take the US into war against Iraq. He ran for president in 2004 and 2008. Uh, welcome back to the show, Dennis Cassinich. Hi, Dennis. How are you,

>> Katie? Good to join you from Cleveland, Ohio, where uh it's over 90 degrees. The power is out. Uh, but uh I'm empowered to be with you and and uh and the good doctor on this call. So,

>> thank you so much. Yes, thank you for joining. Um, I I wanted to actually show uh this. So, a couple minutes ago, Dennis, uh, Dr. Morandi mentioned, um, in a Washington Post opinion piece by Mark Thon calling for the execution of Iran's negotiators. So, I'm just going to show this because uh, he mentioned it and I would like to show uh, this right now. Okay. Is this the right thing? Yes. Right. Okay. um Mark Theson who worked um for for actually uh he's a columnist but he also is a former White House director of speech writing for George Bush uh baby you know the the son um Iran thinks it has leverage and this is from April. Iran thinks it has leverage. Here's how Trump can prove it wrong. If Iran won't accept the president's terms in two weeks, he should impose them. Um uh and um uh Donald Trump has given the Iranian regime a two-week deadline to give up its nuclear ambitions, enriched uranium and support for terror. Now the president needs to make sure Iran's leaders understand that deadline is firm and he isn't going to accept a bad deal if they don't agree military action will commence. Um, and I'm looking for the exact line where they he more I think he more explicitly calls for the um uh for his execution, but maybe not. Um, but either way, um, oh, here it is. Here it is. Okay. Uh, here it is. Okay. He actually does, of course. Okay. So, uh, let's see. Final barrage. One second. Okay. So, here's what he says. Ready? uh carry out a final barrage of leadership strikes eliminating the Iranian officials who had been spared for the purpose of negotiations. Iran's leaders must be made to understand that their lives literally depend on reaching a negotiated settlement to Trump's li to Trump's liking. If they refuse to do so, they will be killed. Okay. So I wanted to ask uh each of you also in light of the fact that right now um uh there are funeral uh um processions being held uh for uh this the former Supreme Leader Alamini uh and he of course was assassinated at the onset of this this war against Iran along with multiple members of his family including his 14-month-old granddaughter. So, I wanted to ask both of you what your response is to things like these assassinations. Um, and also, you know, the fact that someone can openly call for the assassination of uh negotiators in a place like the Washington Post. Um, from your perspective, Dr. Morandi, and then of course your perspective, Dennis, as someone who served in in government, whether this is surprising to you?

Well as a fan of Dennis, I would have liked him to respond, but uh I I I think it's just reflective of um the the the this collapsing empire and how crude it has be become in confronting its adversaries. I mean the Iraq war which u Dennis has uh is known for his uh his opposition to that war we thought nothing back then we thought I mean I was a part of the anti-war coalition in the UK at that time I was doing my PhD there and uh at that time I thought nothing could be worse than this uh a war based on lies and uh and then the occupation of Iraq Even though we hated Saddam Hussein in Iran, but we didn't see the US invasion as legitimate because they're the ones who created Saddam Hussein in the first place. They gave him the West gave him the chemical weapons. The Soviets, of course, they also armed him. But in any case, this was an illegal war. And yet it when we when I look at back then, at least the United States tried to deceive its own people. At least they tried to make the case to the public. No matter how dishonest they were, at least they tried to convince people. But now it doesn't even matter what the what society thinks. It doesn't matter what the public thinks. From the very start of the war, people were opposed to it. In the case of Iraq, people supported it. And of course it came after 911 and and all the propaganda the the anti-Muslim anti-Arab and sentiments that existed back then which were I think you know not not right but you can understand how these things happen. But um but now the public opposes it and it doesn't matter. The media hates Trump almost collectively except for Fox News and a couple of other outlets maybe, but uh they won't condemn the attacks. They won't condemn the killing of kids. they won't. So, it's I think it's uh I think we live in a very it's things are much worse at at one level, but at another level uh there's I see a lot of hope because people ac across the world and especially in the United States see right through the propaganda.

>> Right.

>> Dennis, what are your thoughts on this?

>> Well, well, first of all, it's good to uh she's a good doctor there. I've uh I follow your commentary very closely and uh I often feel that there's somebody who is uh speaking my own thoughts uh maybe was an alienated majesty but but I I do want to uh say thank you and I I also want to say uh that at this moment uh on behalf of myself and I know many Americans we extend uh our condolences to the Iranian people uh as they uh once again mourned the passing of of the former Ayatollah. And also furthermore, I want to say how absolutely heartbroken I am over the um missile strike that took place in Manab on February 28th that killed those 168 uh persons, most of them children. Um, every every decent American, every person who loves their own children and who loves their own family has to look at that as something that uh that we we need to find a way to make up for because it is so tragic and so horrible. Now with respect to uh what uh Glenn Dason wrote, uh predatory Zionism has become um a virus and it runs through um Congress, the administration, the media, the uh institutional media of the West. Uh it is um uh it is immoral. It cares not about human life. It um uh to to even hint uh that uh one would license assassination of negotiators shows you the uh depths of depravity that the that the thinking uh that guides our foreign policy have descended into. And um America absolutely needs to take a new direction. And the only way we can do that is to break the ties that we have with Israel because Israel is not our friend. Israel will undermine the United States at every turn. We need to understand uh that and and as I've mentioned to you before, Katie, you know, Israel at this very moment is trying to accomplish the merger of their military with the US military. And this integration would enable forever wars. We would see not only uh continuation of an accelerated war against Iran and and the uh and more concentration camps in Gaza uh in the West Bank, in Lebanon, but we'd also see uh we would be in the foothills of a war against Egypt and against Turkey because this is all part of the Zionist plan. And one must not conflate Zionism with Judaism ever because this is a totally different um uh effort to try to hijack a religion which uh which has deeply spiritual principles. One that I subscribe to which is called Tunolam. Heal the world. Not destroy the world, heal it. But they hi hijack that religion and then to accuse people of being against a religion. No, you know myself, I'm against murder. I'm against genocide. I'm against ethnationalism and ethnic cleansing. And we right now are in a situation where uh Israel is about territorial expansion. Territorial expansion inevitably means more war. It means uh degradation of human rights. It means uh international law is being broken. And the ark is a destruction of more of the moral law and the moral order itself. So we're at a inflection point here in human history. And uh we either uh realign with those uh sentiments that were expressed in our declaration of independence uh and our constitution uh in in a fundamental way for life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness for all people. or uh we embrace a uh a a a pathologically murderous ethic which will uh consume our own nation.

>> Wow. Yes, that's a great way of putting it.

>> And I'm sorry to interject, but I just wanted to show everyone this to both.

>> Your your your mic is pretty low, Brad. I don't know if you can raise it at all.

>> Oh, I'm sorry about that. Is this any better? Yes, much better.

>> Okay. Sorry about that. Uh just to bolster what uh Dennis was saying um about the provision in the NDAA, the National Defense uh what was it? Uh the

>> action,

>> right? um that Congress over the about a week ago or less blocked the uh Thomas Massie Roana effort to even have a vote on on this provision that would integrate the US and Israeli military and

>> uh yeah wanting to put it in the NDAA but just uh you know to what Dennis was saying e this uh reporting was even saying that even former um intelligence uh members were saying that they have serious concerns, saying in intelligence, Israel is more of an adversary than an ally.

>> And

>> well, Brad, this is in the NDAA right now. It is in the bill and it needs to be it needs to be stripped out because it it it it forfeits American sovereignty. It uh it aligns us it aligns our policies with Israel's policies and makes our country more vulnerable. It adversely affects our national security. Everything about it is wrong.

>> Yeah. If if they're saying that that uh in terms of intelligence, particularly Israel is uh more of an adversary than an ally, then combining our intelligence programs between the two is going to make espionage and things like that all the more easy for for them.

>> So

>> well, you know again just to be very clear uh people want to uh uh massage this um uh this combination but it is a merger. In a merger you you have integration and you eliminate duplication. This these are exact words from from the uh section that's in this bill.

>> We actually going to I I'm sorry to interject. I just while Dr. Morandi is here. We are actually going to this is going to be a major part of of our discussion with Dennis. Um but I did want to before we get into this because Dr. Mandi's here unless unless you'd like to talk about this merger, Dr. Mandi, um I have I had another question for you for both of you, but do you have something you want to say about this merger?

>> Uh no, I I agree with everything that Dennis has said about both Zionism and Judaism, about the merger. I mean, Zionism, I think the the link between Zionism and Judaism or Zionism and Christianity is like the relationship between ISIS and al-Qaeda and Islam. There's there's just there there's no relationship. It's a it's a caricature of uh of Islam and and Zionism. Christian or Jewish is a caricature of Christianity and Judaism,

>> right? And of course, there's more Christian Zionists than there are Jewish Zionists. So, as you as both of you well know, um I do want to show, you know, given that you were talking about the difference between Republicans and Democrats and and there is a but not just Republicans and Democrats,

Dr. Miranda, you talked about Kissinger, who's of course a Republican, um and this crudeness um and this crudeness that kind of covers up a profound similarity in some ways. And I wanted to show um an op-ed um that Hillary Clinton, none other than Hillary Clinton, wrote uh at the Financial Times. "The world may not like Trump's Gaza plan, but there is no alternative. If even I, an implacable opponent of the president, can accept this as the best option, then surely others can too." Um and then uh she she goes through, you know, that there's no alternative framework waiting in the wings. No rival coalition is quietly preparing a more viable proposal. The 20-point plan is not the one many of us would have drafted, but it remains the only framework backed by a sufficient leverage, political engagement, and potential resources to move the parties towards implementation. Um, and without such a plan, um, uh, the crisis in Gaza will only deteriorate with Hamas retaining both political and practical influence over a devastated population through armed actors, local administrative structures, aid distribution networks, and access to basic goods and services. Uh, so what is your response to this endorsement of um of uh of this uh peace plan, so-called peace plan, that is the creation of uh Trump, his Gaza plan?

>> Is that directed to me?

>> Sure. Either one of you. Yeah. But yeah, you can.

>> Yeah. Well, I I'll be brief because unfortunately I have to leave. Otherwise, I'd love to listen to what Dennis has to say and to what you and Brad have to say. Um, you know, in a in a way, it reminds me of um uh something that you're you're u that um you know about quite well, uh and that is Syria. And uh when Trump came to power the first time, uh they were the Democrats were, you know, vehemently opposed to him, very hostile towards him. And then you had Russiagate, and then you had the those fake, the the false flag operations in Syria, the chemical attacks, uh which, I know you've had very good guests on your show, uh to to explain how they were, who, you know, it was these proxies that were supported by foreign intelligence agencies that were behind those false flag operations, and then the OPCW experts who went there and who said that these were not legitimate. They were sidelined and and silenced. But the point is that when Trump began firing missiles at Syria, his opponents suddenly supported him.

>> Exactly. Right. Yeah.

>> His opponent in the Democratic party, and I recall many of them were saying that.

>> I'm going to finally become the US president. So firing by firing missiles into Syria, you become a legitimate president of the United States.

>> Exactly. Yeah, they were all. Yeah. Exactly. Well, Dr. Mandi, thank you so much for your time. um especially given how you are so busy. We always love talking to you and uh come back soon. And uh we're going to get you an Ethernet cord so your connection can be as good as possible.

>> Thank you very much.

>> Thanks.

>> I hope to see you soon.

>> Great. Yes, we will.

>> Bye for now.

>> Bye.

>> Okay, Dennis, back to just wanted to for the sake of his connection wanted to kick you out, but welcome back. Um, what is your response? I mean, you were someone who actually ran against Hillary Clinton.

Well, you know, I've known Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton for a long, long time, and you know, on a personal level, um, I just have to say that her her approach to the, uh, Middle East has been counterproductive. I think that uh Barack Obama has already admitted that uh the attack on Libya was the worst mistake of his presidency. Um, I know about that because I had the privilege of leading the effort to try to stop the United States from going to war against Libya. Uh, I had um I had a call from uh Saif Gaddafi, u Muammar Gaddafi's son, who basically said to me as this as this was rolling, he said, "What are you doing? We've done everything you've asked us to do. We don't do this to us. Don't don't bomb us." And of course, a couple days later, uh they bombed the palace and killed Gaddafi's uh grandchild. Um, the um Gaddafi, of course, was killed, and Hillary made that very well-known statement. "We came, we saw, he died." Haha.

>> And then laughed. Exactly. Yeah.

>> And laughed. And I, you know, I I uh I've always been looking for the Hillary Clinton from the uh from 19 from the 19 early 1990s, but I I think for whatever reason, she began to take a very hard line, and it hasn't worked out in terms of US policy. And Donald Trump's um essentially has given um Israel the opportunity to uh ethnically cleanse Gaza, the West Bank, to um kill tens of thousands of um Palestinians, to um and has not and has not intervened to stop the bombing in Lebanon, South Lebanon. Now, I have been to the West Bank. I've been to um to Lebanon and to Syria about a dozen times. My wife was on a US Board of Enra Gaza, and together we have really had a commitment to peace in the region. I I know I I knew the players there in in various ways, and I also knew the dirty game that the US was playing, how we were backing ISIS, how how we uh toppled um Assad and ended up uh affecting a um a bloody purge that is still ongoing. And yet, is it's Israel in the background, uh claiming land um in in Quneitra, uh attempting to um to use the uh toppling of the Assad government as a way to grab more land, which they certainly have every intention of doing. It's when you're in the region and you see how beautiful it is, and you see how how lovely the people are, and you see how they just want peace. They're not, they're not, you know, I did not hear in casual talk on the street, talking to people, uh, you know, any desire to uh to wipe out Israel at all. People just didn't like getting killed. You know, they didn't like having their family members killed. They would grieve the conditions, but there wasn't this uh rabid um anti-Israel feeling out there. People just want to live their lives. And yet the United States, with policies like Trump is still permitting to happen, um, is instrumental in uh in in death and in destruction of the social fabric of of of the people. Katie, I'll tell you, um, I I I I think you really, as you have, you really have to go back to World War II to look at the way the Nazis treated the Jews to understand the deep level of suffering that the uh, the Palestinians and uh, and now the people in South Lebanon are experiencing at the hands of the u uh, IDF, which uh is in and of itself a criminal organization. There's no no other way about it. Led led by individuals who are themselves criminals, some officially >> arrest warrants by the International Criminal Court. So, you know, this is a um this is a significant human tragedy. But what's the greater tragedy though is failing to recognize what's going on and failing to call it for what it is. Because from our comfort here in the United States, it's so easy to just, you know, pass the biscuits, please. There are people, there are children getting shot in the head, in the chest, as a matter of policy in in in Gaza. What what are what are we about if we just permit this kind of moral collapse to occur right in front of our eyes, and yet we don't, we say nothing about it? So, you know, we we're in a time where the obligation to speak out with the insistence on not just on our own humanity, but on on the humanity of the globe. This is not just about us anymore. This is about the world. And we cannot expect to permit this kind of conduct which Israel is visiting upon the Palestinians and the people of South Lebanon. We cannot expect this to happen and think that it will never come back to us. Oh yes, it will. We must not pretend that these kind of things are just over there. No, there, if it's happening right in front of our eyes, uh, it's happening to us as well.

>> Can you elaborate on that?

Well, you know, um, look, uh, you can you can look at at physics. You can look at the Heisenberg theory that if you if you if you view something, uh, you, um, you change it. You become part of what you observe. Uh, you can you can look at uh uh at at quantum physics and and and you know, you look at the human genome theory that we're all made of the same stuff. We're all made of the same stuff, 99.9%. And we act as though this evocation of an out-group to say, "Well, not them. No, they're animals." Oh, really? Uh, why why would we even treat animals in such a brutal way? There there is a what happens is uh politics affects culture. Culture affects policy. Policy can kill people. And that's the cycle that Israel's in right now. And frankly, the US has been holding hands on this. And um and the um the merger that I I've been speaking about, Katie, draws the US in ever deeper into complicity with u with Israel's misdeeds.

>> Yeah. So, let's uh let us we're going to talk about that merger in one second, but before that, okay, I want to just show uh that you've been someone who's been critical of Netanyahu for a while, and you actually tried to to kind of um rein him in. Um, this is a video of you um when is this video from? This famous video of you.

>> September of uh 2002.

>> Okay. So, and I promise then we're going to get to the merger, but I think this is important context. So, let's take a look at this at this exchange.

>> There is a need to know if the United States is being called upon to launch preemptive action against Iraq. Um, there is a need to know the evidence. And um because I I share the concern that other members have articulated here about the effect that a preemptive attack on Iraq by the United States would have not only on um on the people of our country or be called upon to wage that u and innocent civilians, but also the effect that it would have on on Israel. Now, you stated in your remarks that um if the United States launched a preemptive attack on Iraq, that Iraq, uh, and Saddam Hussein, as you described, the dying gasp would be expected to uh launch a counterattack on on Israel. If the United States does not launch a preemptive attack on the uh state of Iraq, do you see any indication that Iraq is prepared to launch an attack on Israel?

>> First of all, let me um let me comment on when I said I don't need to know. I meant I don't need the detailed, that detailed, kind of detailed information that always involves uh just by the nature of the information, some uh indication of sources. And I I for one try to avoid that uh when I'm not in office. But I also say that if you connect the dots, you know, here's a here's a man who from the minute he achieved power is trying to create a nuclear weapon. 20 years ago, he's very close to producing. He is foiled. He changes the technology to centrifuges that will prevent him being foiled again.

>> Question I had though, do you have any indication that Saddam Hussein is going to attack Israel?

>> Oh, if he will attack.

>> Absent a preemptive launch by the United States.

>> I think it's I cannot uh tell you that he will attack Israel at a particular time. Uh, he, I think what you have to assume, and this is a fair assumption, that he doesn't have to necessarily directly attack Israel. What you can do, what these people do, for example, the Taliban regime didn't directly attack the United States. It harbored a terrorist group that did the job for them. And this is precisely the problem. The problem is you're not dealing with Iraq alone. You're dealing with a terror network. You're dealing with a system where you have proxies. We now live in a world where these regimes have proxies.

>> You talked about a network of terror. Uh, are there any other nations that you would recommend that the United States launch preemptive attacks upon at this point?

>> Uh, first of all, are there other nations that are developing nuclear weapons? Yes.

>> Should we should we launch any preempt other preemptive attacks?

>> First, let me say what they are, and then let me make a suggestion how to proceed.

>> Thank you.

>> Uh, the answer is categorically yes. Uh, the uh the two nations that are vying, competing with each other, who will be the first to achieve nuclear weapons, uh is Iraq and Iran.

>> Okay. So there you have it. Um, it's unfortunate that your warnings weren't heeded, but what is your response to this uh decades later? If you saw that entire stream live, you were so in luck because you get this whole thing. If you're watching this later and you want to see the full interview with Dennis Kucinich, where we talk about uh interesting things like his um interaction with Netanyahu, what happened in Libya, you can do that either by becoming YouTube members or by becoming Patreon members. And to become YouTube members, you press subscribe and then you can press uh join. Uh to become Patreon members, you just go to patreon.com/thekatyhillershow. Again, that's patreon.com/thekatyhillershow. I'm going to read some super chats, but actually before that, I want to tease a really good Patreon only full interview that we did with John Mearsheimer and Yanis Varoufakis. Uh, let's play uh two uh very short clips from that interview. And if you haven't already become members, then make sure you do because you're going to want to see this full interview. And one other dimension to this, it's very interesting is that David Barnabas, who was the head of Mossad, played a key role along with uh Prime Minister Netanyahu in convincing Trump that this Kakami scheme would work. But what's interesting is that uh Barnabas's predecessor, who was the head of uh uh Mossad, a man named Cohen, thought this was a crazy idea. He he knew it wouldn't work. And it was Barnabas who flipped the script. And I think that Barnabas and Netanyahu might have understood, like Barnabas's predecessor did, that this was just not going to work. It was not going to work in the sense that a shock and awe campaign was going to overthrow the regime, but it was going to work in a sense that you would entrap the United States into this war, and we would ultimately have no choice but to topple the regime. But in the end, what's happened here is that President Trump has acted the way President Kennedy acted. Kennedy bailed out. He did not fall into the trap. Trump definitely initially fell into the trap, but now he's trying to get out of the trap.

>> Okay. Who's the head of MSAD and they convince him that uh we have the magic formula, uh that if we launch a shock and awe campaign and we decapitate.

Let's not show this. Actually, it's my fault because it just shows the bottom of his of his face. But uh lots of great material, and it's not uh cut that way. That was just an automatic uh short tool that we used. Um, let me just read the super chats. Let's see. Um, we don't see enough Ramsey. I read that. Thank you so much. Happy 4th Katie and friends. Thank you so much. Um, uh, thank you, Katie. Great panel, Ramsey, Professor Miranda, Dennis. Thank you. Uh, love this Friday show. Thank you, Ryan. We added the Katie Helper Show to the Orwell Times app on Google Play and Apple App Store as a new source with other indie creators. Cool. Awesome. Uh, let's see. We didn't get any members, YouTube members, but that's okay. Uh, we did get some Patreon members. Let me thank them. You see, this is what's so cool about becoming Patreon supporters. You get to be famous and read on the show. Okay, one second. Let's see who we got. We got um Brad, when was our last uh uh stream? What date was it?

>> July.

>> That would have been um Tuesday.

>> Which it was.

>> That would have been the 30th, I believe.

>> Oh, okay. Okay. So, we got a lot since then. Great. Because of probably because of this um Mearsheimer Giannis thing, the 30th. So, here we go. Ready? Thank you so much, Ernesto. Thank you so much, Donald. Thank you so much, Potshot. Thank you so much, Wings. Thank you so much, Junobi. Thank you so much, Greywolf. Thank you so much, Fran. Thank you so much, Al S or AIS, I think. Al S. Thank you so much, Pablo. Thank you so much, Flying Guy. Thank you so much, Hope. Thank you so much, Blas. Thank you so much, Donald. Thank you so much, Andre. Thank you so much, Christopher O. Thank you so much, Muhammad. Thank you so much, Benjamin. Thank you so much, Johanna. And thank you so much, Senile Kid. We really could not do this show without you. No joke, we couldn't do the show without you. So, if you haven't already, please like, please um subscribe, please become Patreon members or become YouTube members. Um, and we will see you uh Tuesday. Um, and thank you so much Brad and Nate and to our guests. And I think that's all we have to say, right Brad?

>> Yep, you covered it. And again, this full, if you want to see the full chat with Dennis Kucinich, you can find that by becoming um YouTube members or by becoming Patreon members, as well as the full Giannis uh John Mearsheimer clip. So two amazing reasons to become members. I did everything right and they indicted me and I don't know what the I'm doing. Antifa.