Gut Health Expert: DO THIS First Thing in the Morning to FIX Your Microbiome! | Dr. Will Bulsiewicz

I'm just going to say this has been a game changer for me. I always get my morning sunlight by 9:00. Through that light exposure, you are producing serotonin in the gut, which helps to stimulate your gut motility. Which is a healthy gut is going to ultimately shape your gut microbiome and provide potential benefits throughout the body. But simultaneously, there's serotonin being produced in your brain. That serotonin is creating energy and an uplifted mood for the day. But 12 to 16 hours from now, because you got that morning wet exposure, the gifts will continue. The thing that you do with the microbiome consistently, it will start with a small effect on that snowball. That snowball is a pebble, and then a marble, and then a tennis ball, and then a softball, and then a basketball, and eventually it's that big snowball careening powerfully down the side of a mountain. This is how small choices can have big profound effects on our health.

Dr. B, I have quite a few people in my audience who are carnivore, animal-based, low carb, somewhere in that territory with diet. And the way they eat, a lot of them are going to be quickly dismissive of a lot of the things we're going to talk about today, such as fiber and eating more plants. Before they click away, explain to them why they need to come into this with an open mind and that they can still get value from what we're about to share.

Well, I think the way that I would start that conversation is by first saying that I'm, I'm quite sure that when they actually pursue their own dietary approach, they're asking others to be open-minded to what they're doing. And that to me is a grace that should be extended both ways, right? In in today's world, we need to have these conversations and find common ground and find ways to understand and appreciate one another, and also learn from one another. And so I think that there's an opportunity to do that. And you know, the thing about it, Jesse, from my perspective, is that, um, anyone who makes dietary change in the interest of better health is a person that has my respect. Because the vast majority of people are not willing to do that. And while I may not wholeheartedly agree with some of the choices that people make, that's okay. Because there are people that exist in my own space that I don't wholeheartedly agree with everything that they do either. So, and and I also don't think that I'm always right. Um, but I do think that the microbiome science is pretty transparent and clear. And so that's my job is to stand here, present what I see as the transparent and clear microbiome science, and then we can talk about it.

And Dr. B, it's been a year or two since we last chatted. Anything in that period of time that you've changed your mind on or any new science that is really flipping the paradigm?

Well, I mean, I think if we're going to, if we're going to talk or bring up the carnivore approach, I mean, clearly this is a highly popular diet right now. Um, popularity is not the same as our biology. Um, but I think that from my perspective, there is, um, an increasing acknowledgement that there are definitely people who follow these dietary patterns and they feel better. And so, and there's just no denying this, nor would I say that your, you know, your body is lying to you or the way that you feel is not real. Like that's ridiculous. So I think that, um, building an enhanced understanding of these things is necessarily important. But I also think that, you know, part of my responsibility, um, with that is not so much to attack or make it sound like you're a horrible person because you made that choice when, like, you're just trying to improve yourself. Um, my responsibility is to point out ways in which we can tweak things and perhaps start to move in a direction that can enhance your health even further. And, you know, and and one of the things that I find to be interesting, Jesse, with respect to Paul Cadino, is that he himself has adapted and changed his diet. And, um, and he's been quite open and transparent with that, which I, I respect that. I think that's great. So I, and I think that that's ultimately what we want. Like we don't, none of us, none of us should be, um, overly dogmatic about our approach. We should all be just kind of striving to be better. And one thing I've noticed over the years having these conversations every week is that there are good arguments on both sides. And when I'm preparing for and chatting with somebody more in the plant-based world, like yourself, it's easy for my own paradigm to slightly be deviated that way. And then again, when I'm talking to somebody more on the meat-based spectrum. So it's, none of us are immune to this. And I think all of us need to continue to be open-minded and learn.

I love that. And I think that, I think that's wholeheartedly so what we need right now, um, on multiple levels as humans, is we just need to open our hearts and learn from one another. And, um, um, and see the humanity in one another. So in that last year too, since we chatted, has there been any big breakthroughs in the science?

Well, we are moving forward. Um, so I, I will tell you that like, for example, with myself, I've been involved in a number of different research studies that I see as potential game changers. I think we'll talk about some of them. Like I don't want to necessarily dig right into them right now, but I've been involved in a number of different studies that are game changers involving intermittent fasting, involving bowel movements, um, involving our gut microbiome. There's new study, new research that's, um, emerging in terms of how we manipulate the microbiome. And so increasingly, we are now seeing like, um, I guess the area that has my attention is the way in which we treat cancer is shifting towards an approach called immunotherapy. And immunotherapy is where, rather than using chemotherapy, that are traditional approach, which is intended to kill and destroy tumor cells, um, but unfortunately is not so perfectly targeted, so it kills and destroys many cells. And this is why people feel miserable when they, uh, do chemotherapy. The new approach is to empower our own immune system. And so that's what immunotherapy does. And it turns out that when you empower our own immune system, it's highly capable of eliminating tumor cells. And so what's fascinating and interesting is the increasing evidence that exists that is showing us that the gut microbiome plays a central role in this process. And so there are a combination of studies showing, for example, that fecal transplants may provide benefit to people who have a damaged gut in the context of receiving immunotherapy for specific cancers, such as melanoma. Um, by the way, I should say with that, this is, we're early, early phases in terms of understanding this. So I wouldn't describe this as being like set in stone in the way that it may be in 10 years, but we're starting to see this signal that emerges in the evidence. Um, or alternatively, that if you, um, modify a person's diet, and by modifying their diet, you modify their microbiome, that that may in itself also provide benefit in terms of cancer outcomes with immunotherapy. So it's an exciting time because we went through a period where all we did was describe what we were seeing in the microbiome, and now we're in a place where it's not a matter of just sort of observation, it's actually manipulation and looking at how we can, um, take advantage of the power that exists within these gut microbes. And if we're going to get in and talk about, which we will, how to optimize the microbiome and things that are destroying it, I think a good benchmark to start with is what we're aiming for. So let's talk about what the optimal gut microbiome looks like, and then we can talk about how to protect it and how to build it up.

Yeah, um, you know, looking at the gut microbiome, I think we need to first sort of zoom out and look at this holistically. Imagine, you know, that you had sort of a high, a high view looking down on this community, this ecosystem. And the problem is that many times in research, because we are simple, we are much more, we're much more happy when we have linear thoughts. If you do this, you get this, and therefore you are better. And so many times we reduce the microbiome down to like single, you know, single strains. Hey, this is a good bacteria, this is a bad bacteria. But yet, it's the entirety of the ecosystem that really matters. It's the health of the overall picture. And within that sort of big picture view, um, there will be the rise and fall of specific families of microbes. And I would make this a comparison, Jesse, to, like, I would love for the people who are at home listening to us to, in their mind, conjure a picture of an ecosystem that exists within their space, within their world. So I'm here in Charleston, South Carolina. We're a coastal city in the Southeast United States on the Atlantic Ocean. And as I look out right now through this window, um, this is my yard. And we have all kinds of buried trees, there are squirrels, there are birds, and I know that there are bugs, lots of mosquitoes. And within that, um, we could zero in on, you know, one, the mosquitoes, and say the mosquitoes are bad, and we want less of those. Um, but the problem is, if we have less of those, we start killing them off by spraying them or whatever we might do, that affects the birds or that affects other animals. Um, and so there are ripple effects that start to take place. The health of this ecosystem is the fact that there are a wide variety of different plants, a wide variety of different animals and bugs and whatever it may be. So it's that biological diversity that is essential and key. And if we want to simplify the microbiome, we should look at the diversity within the microbiome. Because much like looking at this ecosystem that is surrounding me, if you were to zoom in on your gut, it would be that diversity that's key. And within that diversity, yes, there are bad guys, but the bad guys play a role too, much like the mosquitoes play an important role in the ecosystem around my house. And one thing we tend to do in the natural health world is just focus on the bacteria within the gut. And there's also viruses, fungi, parasites, all kinds of different things going on down there. So talk about that integration.

Yeah, there's actually a historical reason for this. We, we like to talk about the things that we can test. And if we can't test it, then like, how do we measure it? Right? How do you measure happiness? Like I can tell you how much money I have, but how do you measure happiness? It's a much more complicated thing. And when it comes to our body, the same is also true. And in the beginning, Jesse, all that we could test for really were the bacteria. That was the test that we had when it came to the microbiome for a very long time, until very recently. And now there's, um, we have an improvement of the test called shotgun metagenomic sequencing, which allows us to have a more holistic view that includes the bacteria, and also the fungi and yeasts, and the parasites, and in some cases, you can actually test and see the viruses as well. And so now the bacteria are from a numerical perspective, the dominant ones. The vast majority of the microbes are bacteria. But clearly, there's an important role that fungi and yeasts play. And we all know this because there are many people who deal with yeast-related issues, such as athlete's foot or jock itch or, um, female yeast infection. Or you take antibiotics and you get thrush, right? This is all, um, yeast-related. So, um, so these, these microbes play an important role as well. And the one thing that I would say is that one of the lessons that we have is, you know, there's sort of just this general idea that if something is bad, like in the microbiome, if something is bad, then we should kill. And every single time we do this, we discover that actually that was not the right approach. And with an, you know, with antibiotics, for example, like, is there a role for antibiotics? Yes, of course, they're so important when we need them. But should we use them liberally? No, because there's consequences and we're causing harm. And I think that the same is also true when it comes to some of these things. Because one of the things that we've discovered is that, for example, there are, like, perhaps the most studied probiotic is Saccharomyces boulardii, which is that's a yeast. It's a probiotic, it's good for you. And, um, there's actually research that we've done that has discovered that there's a parasite that actually is good for us. And it helps to control our blood sugar, it reduces visceral fat, and it's a parasite. So normally we would be under the impression that we should kill it, but in fact, it's not something we want to do that. And when it comes to all these different integrations again of viruses, bacteria, different things that are going on in the gut, when it comes to maintaining a healthy gut, at this point, with what we know and where the science is, is it all about manipulating the bacteria and then in turn that impacts things like viruses and fungi?

You mentioned that one specific Saccharomyces boulardii, but in general, when it comes to probiotics we're taking, it's traditionally bacteria. We don't focus a lot on on these other organisms. So when it comes to maintaining that ecosystem and that balance with all these different organisms, where the science is now, is it about focusing on the bacteria and then letting everything else balance?

Well, there, we have, we know so much more about the bacteria. So it's a lot easier for us to create strategies that are intended to manipulate them because that's where we have, you know, 15, 20 years of data. And when it comes to the, um, microbiome, myco, which is the fungi and yeast, we don't have nearly as much information available on that. But what we do know is they live in harmony, and that they, there's a balance that naturally exists, and we want to, um, support that balance within the microbiome. So it's not so much from my perspective that we should focus on how to manipulate the bacteria specifically. It's more so how can we make choices that frankly tend to be common sense, and the same stuff that our grandma was teaching us 30, 40 years ago. Um, how can we make common sense choices that will help to build a healthy ecosystem that includes a wide mix of all of these different things that include bacteria, fungi, archaea, parasites, possibly. I mean, again, parasites, there's ones that are good. So, um, so I, I, I don't particularly want us to vilify them. I want us to understand them.

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And I think part of where this narrow approach focusing on bacteria comes from again, coming to the fact that when we're going to manipulate what's going on down there and take a probiotic, we're focused again, mostly on bacteria, and often only a handful of bacteria. It might be five different species within a probiotic, which is so such a minimalistic, narrow-minded approach to manipulating the intricacies that are happening down in the gut.

I wholeheartedly agree. And the, um, now I guess let me, uh, say from my perspective as a gastroenterologist, that there are tons of people, plenty of people that I have taken care of through the years that have used probiotics with benefit. But the problem is that, like, I think that the, the marketing machine wants us to believe that the solution to our problems is in that capsule. And that's not the way that I would personally describe that. Um, and the other issue is that if we, if we were to talk about, like, we were to do probiotics 101, and I were allowed to teach for the next two minutes about how do you approach this issue with probiotics, if you know, for the listeners who are curious about this, because again, for people who have gut issues, there may be a, but the issue with this, Jesse, is that, like, let's just use you as a quick example. You have an entirely unique microbiome. There's literally no one on the planet that has the exact same microbiome as you. Um, I don't recall you having an identical twin, but if we pretend for a moment that you did, all right, you would share the exact same genetic code, 100% the same DNA as that identical twin. And in the vast majority of cases, you would be raised in the same home, eating similar food, similar sort of lifestyle. And yet, despite all that, you would only share 30 to 35% of the same microbes. Your microbiome would be more different than it would be the same from your identical twin that you can't get more somewhere to than that. So that uniqueness of your microbiome, um, we don't know what's going to happen until we try. And this is true of probiotics, and this is true of other supplements, and this is also true of medications. This is the reason why one medication can have amazing effects for one person and have catastrophic adverse effects for another. So with the probiotic, the way that we approach this is, you, you should have a goal in mind. It shouldn't just be, hey, I want better gut health. It should be, this is what I'm hoping to accomplish with this particular probiotic. And, um, and you should choose a probiotic that has the science and the evidence to back up that it will actually work for that specific health issue. But that doesn't mean that it's going to work for you. So ultimately, you have to be your own scientist for your own body. This, this is, you could apply this to many things, not just probiotics, where you start taking that probiotic with your specific health goal in mind, you see where it takes you, and if it provides benefit in your health goal, and you're comfortable with the price, then that's great. But if it does not, you stop wasting your money. And either you move on to another probiotic, or you move on to something different. And I think the last thing is like, there are more sure, more sure-fire ways to manipulate our microbiome. And really, this is, I think, what where the conversation exists with diet, with lifestyle, with fiber. Um, these are the ways in which we can really start to shape the microbiome in a more powerful way. And again, coming back to the different organisms within the gut, is there good news within this? The fact that when we take on the practices we're going to get into today, that it does help rebalance all of them? Because say we're talking about putting in more fiber for the bacteria, hypothetically that could have a negative impact on viruses or fungi. Is there good news that there is an approach that brings harmony to all the different species?

Yeah, there is. Um, and, and it's not exclusive to fiber. There are other things beyond just fiber. I tend to focus on fiber because from, I, I think about things on a public health level as a public speaker. And 95% of people in the United States, and quite somewhere in Canada, are deficient in fiber. So to me, I see this as a tremendous opportunity, not to put people on a high fiber diet, just to normalize fiber. Um, but yes, there, there's more, there's more that exists beyond just that. And the answer to this question, Jesse, is when we look at gut diversity, that is our measure of health. And gut diversity is not exclusive to the bacteria or the fungi that are beneficial to human health and are probiotic and their nature. Gut diversity still includes things that we may cause, that we may consider to be pathogenic, and yet within that harmony and balance, it's okay for E. coli and Salmonella and these other microbes to exist because when they are harmonized and imbalanced, they're actually not causing trouble. You know this because you're not sick. And in some cases, believe it or not, they may be more complicated and in some cases, they can be beneficial and helpful. Kind of like, um, not, I, I hate to make it about a TV show that maybe people haven't seen, but I mean, this is perhaps the most popular TV show of the last 15 years, Game of Thrones. And the cool thing about Game of Thrones to me was the depth of the characters. And you have people like Jamie Lannister, who, like, one season he's a bad guy, another season he's a good guy. Many of these microbes can be like that. It's contextual. So we can't necessarily just apply a label of good versus bad.

So for somebody coming into this wanting to optimize their gut health from wherever they're at today, is the first step to look at symptoms that they're experiencing, to have some sort of objective testing done? You talked about how diversity is what we're looking for here. How do we assess where we're at right now?

Well, we live in a world right now where we have more access to testing than we've ever had. And I think it's cool, but I'm a little bit of an old school doctor in this regard. As the end of the day, the most important question from my perspective is, how do you feel? Like, let's get back to very basic thing. Because if you use, for example, your, you know, um, Apple Watch and your heart rate variability went down, but you had a great night's rest and you feel fantastic, that heart rate variability is actually causing you stress, raising your blood pressure, increasing cortisol levels, activating your sympathetic nervous system, and actually having a negative effect on your gut microbiome, not a beneficial effect. So I kind of think that, like, data is good, but let's start with the basics. And when I'm measuring a person's gut health, before I even entertain, do I think that there's a role for tests? Yes. But before I even entertain those tests, I want to start with this. If it was a patient that I were talking to in the clinic, the first question: How do you feel? The second thing that I look at: What is their health history? All right? So when a person has, and this is often the case, when a person has a history of something that is a microbiome-mediated health condition, which many of the listeners may say, oh, well, Dr. B, you're talking about Irritable Bowel Syndrome? Yes. And other digestive health problems, like all sort of colitis, Crohn's disease, acid reflux, etcetera. But I would expand that so much further. Because metabolic issues, obesity, type two diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and immune-related issues, allergic diseases, autoimmune diseases, and cognitive issues, so, um, depression, which may include mood, mood disorders, depression, anxiety, um, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease. If we, hormonal issues, so in men, erectile dysfunction, in women, fertility, endometriosis, polycystic ovary syndrome, menopausal symptoms. All of these things are connected back to our gut. So in addition to asking a person how do you feel, I'm looking at the list of their health history. And when I see multiple different ones that are lighting up as being connected back to the gut microbiome, I already know. And the last thing that I would add, and again, all of this is free. I, I would encourage the listeners to like, take a quick moment of a look in the mirror to say, is this me? And where does this fit for me? Let me think about that. The third thing is our bowel movements. As you know, Jesse, I am far too comfortable talking about this topic. Um, but for most of us, we're not. Most people, this is sort of a, a stigmatized thing. We can't talk about our bowel movements. Yet, this is so directly relevant to our health, specifically our gut health. You can literally tell the difference in a person's microbiome based upon their bowel movements. Because the majority of the weight of our stool is not actually the excrement of your food. It's not the food waste. The majority of the weight of your stool is actually from your microbiome. So, um, so what you have there is like the gut health equivalent of a cardiologist listening to your heart with a stethoscope. And so for each of us, we should look at the shape. So you can pull up the Bristol stool scale, the shape, the frequency, but also importantly, the experience in the bathroom. Do you have a good, good, complete evacuation? Is it satisfying? Because it should be. Do you feel good afterwards? Because you should. Or is it effort? Do you have to work hard and strain? Do you still feel like you have to go? Do you feel like you didn't really fully poop? Because if the answer is, uh, yes to any of those things, then it's not where we want it to be. So those are the main things that I look at. And then after that, we can dig into tests. There's all kinds of costs. Um, I'm, uh, involved with a company, I'm the US medical director of a company called Zoe. And unfortunately, we're not available in Canada at the moment, but in the US and the UK, we have a test kit where we measure a person's microbiome, provide them with a score, and provide them with a personalized nutrition plan to improve their microbiome. Um, so, and I do think that there's a place where that can be helpful.

All right, so the three big areas you look at: how's the person feeling, their history, specifically, well, no, actually beyond that, I was going to say related to the gut, but you're looking at whole health history and then trying to see what you could connect back to the gut. And then third is what's going on with the bowel movements. And I want to stick on that third piece for a bit. You talked a lot about the fact that we should feel satisfied after we poop. What is it we're looking for when we look down into the toilet, assuming we do? We should. But what is that we're looking for in an ideal poop, shape-wise, size, and then we can go from there?

Yeah, um, there was a, uh, a famous British scientist who studied poop in Africa, believe it or not. And he came back, he had a sense of humor, like, uh, like many Irish people do. And he said, when you have big poops, you need small hospitals. And when you have small poops, you need big hospitals. And so in a perfect world, we want big poops. Those are healthy ones. And the way that they would appear is, and, and again, my wife always tells me, you need to not talk about poop so much in public. But since we're on a health-related podcast, I have the freedom to do this right now. Um, a good healthy bowel movement is like a sausage. So it is soft, it is formed, it has that sausage-like shape. Um, and, um, because we are pooping with good pelvic floor relaxation, and it is effortlessly leaving our body, then it's long as a result of that. It's not broken up into little chicken nuggets. It's nice one long sausage or snake, whatever you want to call it. I'm kind of scared of snakes, so like, I avoid that one. But that's what we want. And that's what we call Bristol 4. All right, so the, the Bristol stool scale, actually, there's a historical reason for this. It goes back to the 1990s, and they were in Bristol in the UK, and they studied about 2,000 people, and they came up with this sort of, um, concept of there's seven types of bowel movements. So the sausage one is our normal healthy bowel movement. That's number four. And as we move three, two, one, we are moving into a constipation space. So three is hard and lumpy bumpy, and two is, um, actually turning into like hard, lumpy bumpy, almost like nuggets. And number one is, uh, rabbit pellets, like hard balls. All right, so that's one, two, three. And then we can go to the other side, five, six, and seven are diarrhea. Five is like a cow patty, um, so just losing its shape. Six is rather loose, and seven is straight water. So three and four are our normal healthy bowel movements. One and two, constipation. Five, six, and seven, diarrhea. That's what we should be looking at. All right, so we want to hit that three and four at least the majority of the time.

How often should we be pooping?

All right, so I, I, I want to start by saying this, that there are tons of people who poop every single day, and they are constipated. So the frequency is not the principal determinant of these things. Um, this is why we need this whole picture of what a healthy bowel movement is. As you're asking me about this, the average bowel movement frequency for people right now is one poop a day. That doesn't mean that you're unhealthy if you go every other day. We should be pooping at least, at least twice per week. Um, there are people though who will poop more frequently, and it's not a complete bowel movement. So they go, and they, it just doesn't feel right when it's coming out. Again, not complete, not effortless. And then they, like, they have to go again. They come back 45 minutes later, and it's another little nugget. Those small poops don't count. That's not a full poop. Those are partials. And those often are people who are suffering with bloating and gas. They're constipated. Um, and what they need is they need more complete, regular bowel movements. Because if they had that, if they were to really start to mobilize their bowels, their symptoms would go away.

How do you feel about using a stool to put the feet up on when pooping? There's a brand out there called Squatty Potty. I think they got everything started, and now people use all sorts of things. Is that a good practice?

It's a phenomenal practice and it makes complete sense just anatomically. It's like a very simple idea here, which is that if you were out in nature camping and you had to go number two, um, I don't think that you would actually like prop yourself down on a log and try to figure out how to sit the way that you sit on a toilet, right? What you would do is you would just squat down deep squat and you would poop. And anatomically, we're actually set up to do that. So there are muscles that exist within the bowl of our pelvis, our pelvic floor, that are designed to actually make it difficult for us to poop unless we're in a squat. And when we are in a squat, then actually creates a straight rectum, which allows us to then have that clean, effortless, and complete bowel movement. So squatting is the preferred position for pooping. And the person John J. Crapper, or whatever his name was, who invented the toilet, he did not know this. And so they invented a toilet that was more like a throne or a chair. And we sit there with a 90-degree knee and 90-degree hips. You know, like the way in which our legs connect to our back, it's like 90 degrees. And that's not the way it should be. The angles should be more acute. And so, and it doesn't have to be necessarily the brand Squatty Potty. If you like their brands, I'm all for it. But it's more so just getting your feet elevated. When you elevate your feet, you get your hips up. And when you get your, I'm sorry, you get your knees up. And you get your knees actually above your hips. So, and when the knees go above the hips, that's when you, that's when you know that you're in a better pooping position. So it could be anything. It could be anything. We have a little, um, in our, in our bathroom at home, have I have little kids, so I have two kids who are under two. Um, I have two older kids as well, four total children. But with the two little ones, you know, we need a little stepping stool for them to be able to get up to the sink and wash their hands and things like this. So the stepping stool makes for a nice Squatty Potty.

Any hacks if you're in public, you have to poop? Like when I'm traveling, if I'm, if I'm in, like, O'Hare, in a, you know, major airport, and I have to go, I'll put my bag down and I'll use that for my feet. So that would be that would be one of the things that you could do. I mean, just finding something basically that you can put your feet on.

All right, so hydration, diet, I want to get into those later. Any other hacks when we're in the bathroom specifically, position things in that realm that can improve our pooping?

Taking a nice breath in and then letting it out through your lips slowly. And you might even make like a humming noise. Um, and that helps to actually relax our pelvic floor in that moment. So that's one of the things that we can definitely do. Um, you know, I'm just picturing somebody walking in while the legs are up and humming. And the scene that would make. All right, this happened the other day with our nanny. I told our nanny, I was like, you're officially a part of the family now that you walked in the bathroom on me. Um, so, yeah, so just our breathing patterns, and nice deep breaths in through the nose, and then releasing through the mouth. Um, don't have to do the humming noise if you don't want to, but that, that's one of the ways that you can, um, help to relax the pelvic floor. A few other things. So hemorrhoids get worse if we spend too much time on the toilet. So don't, don't make it a habit or try to avoid the habit. This is actually, by the way, mostly a message for men, because men are the ones who do this the most. Try not to make it a habit of sitting on the toilet for 20 minutes and like reading your phone or whatever it is that you're doing. Five minutes. All right, you feel the urge, you go, you release your bowel movement, and then you get up and you move on with your day. The other, um, the other hack that's kind of interesting, if you are a person who's irregular in your bowel movements, one of the things is that our entire body thrives on consistency. Our entire body has a circadian rhythm. This is the reason why the most common time of day for people to poop is in the morning, fairly consistently. But some people are not like that. And that may be because their circadian rhythm is not actually optimized and not in balance. Now, there are many things that you can do to optimize your circadian rhythm, which, by the way, and we can talk about this more, are good for the gut. And this includes, for example, early morning light exposure, right? To help to start the day. But when it comes to creating a regular, um, uh, pooping schedule, believe it or not, you can do this yourself. The way that you do it is by simply establishing a time, many times after coffee, perhaps after breakfast, if you're a breakfast eater, after that, you go and you sit on the toilet for five minutes. Even if you don't feel like you have to go, you just do that five minutes. Don't force anything, don't strain. If five minutes pass and you haven't pooped, get up and leave. But I promise you that if you do this for three or four days in a row, your body will pick up on what you're trying to do, and you will start to have bowel movements at that time. And then you can get yourself into a rhythm of having a good, regular, healthy morning bowel movement, which, by the way, to me, is just as good as a great cup of coffee.

You mentioned the fact that we could do this after coffee or breakfast. What is it about those two specific inputs that seem to facilitate pooping?

So, uh, this is going to perhaps move us into a broader conversation, and I'll be curious to see where you take this. Um, but I think actually the serotonin is the key. So serotonin, we most of us think of serotonin as the happy hormone. So when a person uses drugs to treat depression, those are serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They boost serotonin levels in the brain, and that helps to address depression. It turns out that 90 to 95% of serotonin is produced in the gut. And the reason why is because it's a motility agent. Serotonin helps to stimulate gut motility. And when we wake up in the morning, particularly with light exposure, actually, that helps our gut to produce serotonin. And then that serotonin turns on, activates the gut, things start to move. And this is part of the reason why you can enhance that even more with morning coffee or with fiber. You can boost those things even more, resulting in that morning bowel movement.

Interesting. I've never heard that connection between motility and serotonin. I've heard that statistic or something in that range, but it's always assumed that we're talking about serotonin that's going to end up in the brain. Does any of that serotonin end up going to the brain and facilitating mood?

That serotonin is affecting our brain. It's not directly, directly crossing the blood-brain barrier to have a direct effect on the brain. But many of these systems run in parallel, and there are connections between our gut and our brain through the vagus nerve. And so the serotonin in the gut can signal the brain to impact, um, our mood and our cognitive function. But there, and, and, and these are the reasons why I should mention that we believe that through the gut-brain axis, that our gut microbes do play a role in our mood. This is also the reason why there are nutrition studies where the intervention is a change in diet with the enhancement of mood. And if we broaden this out, this is again, I find this to be so fascinating. And some of these things, by the way, I haven't really talked about on many podcasts. In fact, I don't even know if I have talked about on any podcast, because this is, um, sort of new stuff. But what's fascinating is that the exposure to morning light enhances serotonin production in the gut. It, it also enhances serotonin production in the brain. And if we take a step back and think about what I just said, light exposure enhances serotonin production, we all know this to be true because that is Seasonal Affective Disorder. Seasonal Affective Disorder is when people in, you know, winter don't get outside as much, don't get exposure to natural sunlight, and as a result of this, it adversely affects their mood. All right? So, but the, here, now, here's the extra interesting part. Serotonin is part of a pathway. So serotonin isn't just affecting our cognition, our mood, our energy levels, our gut motility, um, it's not just that. Serotonin actually gets converted by enzymes in the body to produce melatonin. And melatonin actually is focused in the gut, believe it or not. So I said 90 to 95% of serotonin is produced in the gut. That serotonin gets converted into melatonin. We have 400 times, 400 times more melatonin in our gut than we have in our brain. All right? So that's a staggering amount of melatonin. And why is it there? And the reason why is because actually melatonin produced from serotonin actually helps to change the microbiome, enhance the good guys, suppress the bad guys, and repair and restore the gut barrier. So within the gut, there is this thing that exists where when we get serotonin, we can produce more melatonin, which actually helps to restore a healthy gut. But in the brain, melatonin also is produced from serotonin as a part of our pineal gland. And our pineal gland is what releases melatonin in the evening when we turn our lights down, and it helps us to sleep. So all these things, light exposure in the morning, darkness in the evening, and our gut microbes, they're all interconnected.

So this melatonin made from serotonin in the gut, does any of that have an impact on the brain?

So we think that actually it does. In fact, it crosses the blood-brain barrier. The, the gut melatonin, one of the fascinating things to me is it appears that melatonin also is able to to, um, enhance the gut barrier, meaning like, basically, pre using layman's terms, prevention or reversal of leaky gut. But we also have a blood-brain barrier. And the expectation would be that the melatonin, that blood-brain barrier is actually the exact same, the exact same setup, the exact same build as our gut barrier. It's epithelial cells held together by tight junctions. So the expectation is that melatonin, whether it be in the bloodstream or in the brain and coming into contact with the blood-brain barrier, has the capacity and ability to enhance and restore the blood-brain barrier as well. And, um, now, to be totally clear, I, I, I, I just want to explain one thing because I'm sure there's going to be someone at home who's going to be curious about this. I said there's 400 times more Ser, 400 times more melatonin in the gut. All right? But when it comes to our circadian rhythm and our sleep, it's the melatonin produced by our pineal gland in our brain that is the key. And so it's not just about healthy gut means good sleep. Yes, healthy gut does mean good sleep, but just as important is as we get into the evening, late in the day, having a routine that allows us to actually support the release of that melatonin into our bloodstream so that we can prepare our for restful sleep. And then that nighttime melatonin is having healing. As I think the listeners, I'm sure are taking away that nighttime melatonin is having healing effects throughout the entire body.

What are your thoughts on supplementing with melatonin and how does that impact the gut microbiome?

Yeah, uh, well, so some of these melatonin study, some of the, uh, effects of melatonin on the gut microbiome are based upon melatonin supplement studies. And so if you look at the big picture of melatonin in a world where there are a lot of people who are using, you know, sleep aids at night, many of which have side effects that are not desired, um, melatonin supplementation has an extremely, extremely safe profile. If you take too much of it, it will make you groggy the next day, and this is easily addressed by simply starting with a small dose and easing into it to see how it affects you. So it's not to say that it's for everyone, but I do believe that there are benefits to melatonin for people. That being said, to be totally clear, my recommendation would not be that you have a rambunctious evening with a lot of bright light and, you know, alcohol and whatever it may be, which is going to suppress your melatonin, and then take a melatonin supplement. My recommendation actually is that after 8:00 PM, we wind down. And that includes our light exposure. And that allows your body's natural melatonin stores to get released. And then if there's a place where a melatonin supplement enhances that for you, then I think that that's completely reasonable.

All right, I'm going to try and piece some of this together. 90 to 95% of serotonin is made in the gut. It doesn't directly act on the brain. The brain makes its own serotonin. Some of that serotonin in the gut gets converted to melatonin, can repair the gut, can repair the blood-brain barrier, can actually get into the brain. But the brain also makes its own melatonin. Does that kind of summarize what some of the high-level points there are?

Yeah, and, and then, and then the part, the part that is the action, the, you know, the actionable lever that we can pull for the people at home who are like, okay, well, how do I use this information? The answer is morning light. Because when you step outside and you get exposure to even on a cloudy day, by the way, right? Even when the weather is not good, you still are getting a spectrum of light that comes from the sun, and is profoundly more bright than what we get if we stay inside, even with lights on. So, um, you step outside for ideally 30 minutes, but even if you have less, even five, 10, 15 minutes, I'll take it. And what ends up happening is, in in that moment, through that light exposure, you are producing serotonin in the gut, which helps to stimulate your gut motility. Which is a healthy gut is going to ultimately shape your gut microbiome and provide potential benefits throughout the body. But simultaneously, that serot, there's serotonin being produced in your brain. That serotonin is creating energy and an uplifted mood for the day, which are the things that you want so that you can have a highly productive, focused day. But 12 to 16 hours from now, because you got that morning.

Wet exposure, the gifts will continue because of the production of that melatonin, which will result in a good night's rest. So, and I, this has been, I'm just going to say, this has been a game-changer for me. I didn't do this the last time you and I were on a call together two years ago, and now I have a morning routine that includes me making sure to get time outside.

And one of the things that I've done to kind of piggyback this and, and sort of, um, squeeze as much value as I can out of my 30 minutes in the morning is that I also wear a Ruck vest. And so I'm also of the belief that gentle exercise in the morning actually helps us to have better days. So, um, so I'll wear this Ruck vest. I started off with 20 lbs, which is about 10% body weight for me. I moved up to 40 lbs, which is about 20% body weight for me. And a lot of times I'm like walking with my kids, you know, and I have a stroller that I'm pushing. I got this military-grade Ruck vest on as I walk through this neighborhood in Charleston, South Carolina. But I come back, I'm a little bit tired, I feel amazing, and I have far more productive days, and I have much better rest that night.

All right, well, now that we're into the morning routine, let's get into the nuances here. We know you're walking with the Ruck vest, getting that morning light, you're with the kids out for a walk. Let's go all the way back to when you wake up. What time is it? And then we can piece together, you know, we talked about food before, coffee, bowel movement. Let's get into the details. What does it look like right through that morning for you?

So, what I do, first of all, let me say, I, as an author, I have found that my best work is done in the morning. And that may be specific to me, that may not be everyone. But for me, my time of intense focus and productivity is starting early and trying to get as much done by 9:00 in the morning. So I typically wake up somewhere in the range of between 5:30 and 6:30, somewhere in there. Kind of depends, like if I'm watching football the night before, then it's closer to 6:30.

I get up and I, um, roll downstairs. And I've actually changed my routine. I used to be immediately coffee, boom. I've now switched. I do two mugs of warm water. And the first one, I will actually add a splash of apple cider vinegar to. All right. The second one, less warm, closer to room temperature, I actually add my prebiotic too. So, and, um, and you know this, Jesse, but the listeners may not. I started a company called 38 Tera. We launched in January, but this is a project that I've been working on since 2021. And I developed basically the prebiotic supplement that I always wished that I could have had for my patients. So going back 10 years, I've treated thousands of people with fiber supplements, but I always felt like they could be better. I also was frustrated because they were not transparent. Like, you know, who knows what's in these things? No one's testing it and showing you the report. So basically, that's what motivated me to start this company. And so our first product is called Daily Microbiome Nutrition, or DMN. And it includes a mix of fiber, resistant starch, and multiple polyphenols from seven different plant-based ingredients. And this is sort of like a multivitamin for my gut. So, and I do that to start my day because if you think about some of these things that we're talking about, I'm of the belief that our gut microbes are central to us having good days, central to that healthy morning bowel movement, central to serotonin production. And so from my perspective, then it makes sense to start the day by feeding them.

So my first is a warm glass of water with some apple cider vinegar, which, by the way, I count that as a fermented food. My second is my another large glass of water, more room temperature, with my prebiotic in it. And then from that point forward, it's been about a half hour, hour, I'm ready to move into coffee. So I typically will wait about 30 minutes in terms of my coffee. Now, in terms of getting my walk-in, it depends a little bit. Sometimes I go straight to work and I start writing because it's dark outside. Um, I always get my morning sunlight by 9:00. But on on other days, I will like basically wake up, have my two mugs of water, and then I'll go and do my family thing, take my walk outside with a Ruck vest. Or, and I could go grab it if you want me to, because it's right over there. I have a, um, uh, what's the proper language for it? It's like a, it's like a weighted baton or a weighted mallet.

Right. Why don't you grab it if it's right there for the viewers? Yeah, yeah, let me grab it. Hold on. I'll be right back.

All right, so I'm of the belief, and I mentioned this, that I think that a little bit of morning exercise is really good for us. Um, and when I say this, I don't mean a vigorous, like, you could do a vigorous workout, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I'm just talking about light exercise, kind of to get myself, get turn my brain on, turn my muscles on, get my heart rate up a little bit. And, um, and if you do that, you will definitely find that your energy levels increase. So I have this now, this right here weighs 10 pounds. Um, and it's made of steel. And it's got, what I'm describing here for people who are not seeing us on YouTube, you should just go to the YouTube video, it's a lot easier. But, um, basically, it's like a weighted baton. Um, it's something on the order of like maybe 16 inches, so I'm trying to think in terms of centimeters, maybe 30 centimeters, kind of like a small baseball bat. Yeah, like a small baseball bat. It weighs 10 pounds. All right, so this is four kilos roughly, uh, maybe a little bit more, four and a half kilos. And so, and the thing about it, it has this grip, so like you can actually grip it pretty good. And what I do with this is I'll go for a walk and I just swing this thing all over the place. My neighbors probably think I'm a weirdo, and I don't care.

Exactly. Or or squatting in the woods. Exactly. They haven't seen anything yet. Yeah, exactly.

Um, so anyway, but I just, I, I take this thing. And the, the beauty of it is that it's not 10 pounds. Again, I'm a big guy, I weigh about 200 pounds. Um, it, it's, it's not like pushing my muscles to an extreme. But when I take a walk for a half hour and I swing this all over the place, like including over my head, right? Or like just like doing curls with it, or kind of doing funny, like turning torso type exercises with it as I walk, um, I come back, I feel fantastic, you know, and then hop in the shower, and I'm ready to start my day. So this is an alternative. I don't typically do this at the same time as my Ruck vest, but it's like sort of one or the other, but I'll just kind of work this in. So this is part of my morning routine as well.

Show and tell. All right, so you get back from the walk. What happens at that point? If you're still in the work mode, you'll get back to doing writing?

Yeah, I mean, it, so I try to do my writing from somewhere in the range of 6:00 to 9:00 in the morning. Um, and then a lot of times, like during the week, I'll, I'll do that, and then I'll do a family walk at 9:00. And now I realize, like, because I'm self-employed, my hours are quite different than most people who work at 9:00 to 5:00. But, um, and then I may, uh, get back to work. But I think that the question that you may be curious about is like, so I haven't mentioned any food yet. All right. So how do I approach that? And the answer to that is that I enjoy following a time-restricted eating lifestyle. And some people, and I don't know how you feel about this, I feel like maybe I need to let this go, but it's a little bit of a pet peeve to me to call intermittent fasting the same thing. It's time-restricted eating because it's not intermittent, it's a lifestyle, it's every day, day. Um, whereas to me, intermittent fasting is more like, hey, like two days a week, I'm going to fast completely. So, and the way that I approach this is that if I had one, like we've been talking about the morning, okay? But when it comes to actually timing of our meals, if I had one request to the listeners at home as a foundation to start with, it would be, please just eat your food during daylight hours. Try to avoid eating at night. I understand in northern latitudes in the winter time, like up where you live, Jesse, it gets, I know it gets cold or it gets dark around 4:00 in some of those days in December. But, um, try to eat during daylight hours. Try to avoid eating after 8:00 PM if you can. Try to avoid evening alcohol, evening snacks, things like this. Our body actually, it's interesting, you can eat the exact same food at different times of the day and get different results. So even though I'm sitting here and talking about how I basically don't eat breakfast most days, let me be completely honest, the science actually doesn't support that. We're actually better shifting our food and front-loading it in the day. So that means eating earlier in the day and then ending our eating later in the day. But for me, and just sort of the cadence of our family, we don't have breakfast together, but we have dinner together every night. It's our family tradition. So because I want to enjoy that family dinner at around 6:00 PM every night, what I do is I typically have this eating window that exists between, on most days, 12:00 noon or 1:00 in the afternoon and then dinner time, which is at 6:00 PM. And that's, that's the, that's my eating window for time-restricted eating.

That's quite tight. Is that new for you?

Well, I'm not religious, I'm not religiously or emotionally attached to it. I mean, I certainly have times where I, you know, have avocado toast on the weekend or something like that. It's probably a little bit tighter than I did the last time that you and I got together. And, you know, and let me, uh, say a few quick things on time-restricted eating. So, um, I feel like it's controversial sometimes. People are like, well, it's not everything it's hyped up to be. Okay, let me tell you what it is. Let me tell you what it is. Number one, it's a way for you to control the time of day that you actually eat. And that does make a difference. So again, that you could eat the exact same meal earlier in the day, and it would give you better blood sugar control, and the worst time is late at night. All right. Number two, it's a way for us to have better control over how many calories we take in. There actually is clear-cut science at this point to show that for people who are overweight, which let's just be honest, in North America, this is a huge percentage of people, for people who are overweight, calorie restriction actually results in longevity. There are benefits to this, and we need to figure out, you know, ways to make it work for ourselves. This is why the GLP-1 drugs are so popular right now because it helps people to reduce how much they eat. But for many people, a time-restricted eating approach actually can help them to facilitate that as well. And, um, and there have been studies that show that in the real world, when people follow a time-restricted eating approach, they reduce their caloric intake. Last thing, I do think that there's value to resting the gut for a period of time, and time-restricted eating helps to facilitate that. Um, there are studies with 12 hours of gut rest. So 12 hours would be like, if hypothetically, you stopped eating at 7:00 PM, then you don't eat again until at least 7:00 AM. That is the starting point. And if we go beyond 12 hours of gut rest and we get into 14 hours of gut rest, we start to actually see an intensification of some of those benefits. There was, um, a study where people had increased gut diversity through this time-restricted eating pattern, um, and less markers of inflammation. So, is this, uh, the solution to all of our problems? Is the only, is this the one thing that we need to do? No, it's not. But it can be inserted into a healthy lifestyle pattern, and I think provides some benefit for people.

You mentioned maybe having avocado toast on the weekend. I want to get to what you break your fast during the week with, but first, let's come back to those two cups of water in the morning. First one with apple cider vinegar. You mentioned it's a fermented food. What other benefits, or are there other benefits you're trying to get with that?

Well, hydration is a big one. So, um, we, I, I want to challenge the listeners to pay closer attention to their own signs of dehydration in the morning. One of them is the color of your urine. So I've already got you looking in the toilet bowl at your poop. Now I'm going to have you take a look at your urine as well. Um, and when it's a deep dark yellow, you know that your body is trying to hold on to water and it's concentrating urine because it's basically in dehydration mode. Not that you are dehydrated per se, but it is in dehydration mode, meaning that it's protecting its water supply. All right. Um, but also pay attention to your lips. So I find that this is where it shows up the quickest. When people are dehydrated, their lips start to get chapped real quick. And when they're adequately hydrated, you have nice, lush, juicy lips when you wake up in the morning. Pay attention to where that's at. Have a couple glasses of water and see how it changes. You will see the difference. The problem is that we, um, all of us go through a period of time where not only are we fasting, we're also not consuming, we're not drinking any water at night. We get up, most people couple of times to go to the bathroom, go number one, and then you wake up in the morning in a dehydrated state, and you don't drink water. You do other stuff, or you drink coffee, and coffee has a diuretic effect and makes you pee even more. So I think that there is value to starting our day with water. I think that there's value to continuing to consume water throughout the day. And the value includes it turning on your brain, getting more sharp and focused, more energized, turning on your kidneys. Kidneys, by the way, allow your body to excrete toxins, and turning on your gut so that you can have, uh, not only a healthy gut, but a good, healthy morning bowel movement. So these are some of the benefits that I personally have found with morning hydration.

Honing in on the apple cider vinegar piece, though, other than the fact that it's a fermented food, is there certain other benefits you're trying to get from that? Because obviously, it's important to you if that's the first thing you're having in the morning, and you only have two drinks before your coffee, and one of them includes the ACV. It's one of those things online, you hear all these different wives' tales, just like coconut oil, that it's like a miracle cure for everything. ACV, is there anything specific with that, other than the fact that it's a fermented food, that you're trying to get?

I'm most from a sci-, from a purely scientific perspective, I am most attached to the fact that it's a fermented food. And of course, I'm talking about raw apple cider vinegar with the mother. The mother, you know, is basically the fact that there's the presence of live microbes. We, um, consume a far too sterile diet, Jesse. Far too sterile. We think about the foods that exist in our supermarket that can sit on a shelf for 12 to 24 months before we even purchase them to bring them home, and they're completely unchanged. How is it possible that they don't get moldy and nothing goes wrong with them? The reason why is because what the food industry calls preservatives, I would call antibiotics. It's designed to kill microbes. And that's the reason why something is able to stay in that sort of shape, um, over time. So with, uh, 60% of the American diet being ultra-processed foods, and sadly, in our children, 70%, we're not, we're on a far too sterile diet. And if we look back at food traditions from not that long ago, every culture from across the world had as a celebrated part of their food traditions, fermented foods. So I really think that we need to bring them back. There was a study out of Stanford, um, that was, uh, published, I think, two years ago, and we may have talked about it the last time that you and I were together because I think it came out around that time. And basically, what they did, and this was, to me, a fascinating study, they had people ramp up their fermented food intake, and 8 weeks later, their gut microbiome was more diverse, and measures of inflammation were reduced. That's the effect that we want. And this is something that, again, our food system will not feed us this type of food unless we make an intentional play to introduce fermented foods into our diet. So the ACV is a very small, but yet quite clear example of me introducing fermented foods into my diet. Now, going beyond this, just intuitively, and I, what I come back to again for a moment is this approach of how do you feel? Um, when I drink water that has a splash of ACV or a squeeze of lemon, I like the way I feel. And it does feel a little bit different than when I drink water in isolation. And I'm a big believer in water in isolation. But if you feel better with a splash of ACV or a squeeze of lemon, I'm here to tell you that don't ignore the way that you feel. I think that's important.

Is this water filtered?

So we are, in some ways, blessed that we have clean water. Yet simultaneously, there's not a requirement that our water needs to contain, um, not just contaminants, but also the things that are intentionally put into the water, um, to, you know, chlorine and, and fluoride and things like this. Um, so we use a, um, reverse osmosis filter in our home. And the reverse osmosis filter, from my perspective, is number one, worth every penny. And the, the, I, I would encourage people to think about it this way: Is there a large upfront investment? Yes. And if you use it and you replace other beverages with clean water that comes from the RO filter, you will save money for sure. And it probably won't take you too long to do that. Um, so, and then our filter has a special thing where it basically, at the one downside of RO is that it is so effective at removing everything from the water that there's literally nothing in there, including the minerals. So we have a special filter that actually replaces those minerals. So like magnesium and zinc and things like this get placed back into the water. Potassium.

Cool. I'm a big fan of RO, and that's what we used to.

Amazing.

So, second beverage, your supplement goes in water. I'm curious why you take that on basically an empty stomach versus waiting until when you break your fast, including it then? Is there any specific advantages while your stomach's empty having that food go to the microbiome?

Okay, so let me be the first to say, there's, there's no study on the timing from a circadian rhythm perspective of fiber supplements, which is kind of what we're talking about here. I mean, our, our Daily Microbiome Nutrition includes fiber and resistant starch and polyphenols, and that's what makes it unique. But there's no study that shows us what is the perfect ideal time to, to use it. Here's what I know. I, I know that number one, I want to activate my gut in the morning. I want my gut to be functional. Um, I want to have a healthy bowel movement, and I want it to be producing the serotonin that we've talked about. And so this is the reason why I choose to time my supplement for the morning because basically, as I'm starting my day, I'm turning on my gut at the exact same time. Now, I can stay in a fasted state while using the supplement because it doesn't contain sugar, or the amount of natural sugar that comes from, for example, kiwi and mango is so small that you will not be breaking your fast. So it basically supports a ketogenic or or low-carb lifestyle. Um, but it also simultaneously supports the gut microbes. That's the reason why I choose that time. The second thing is, to me, it's about consistency. So there's research that's been coming out, Jesse, that indicates that, um, interestingly, coffee, of all the foods in the Western diet, is the food that seems to have the strongest impact on the microbiome. Now, is this because coffee is the healthiest beverage or even healthiest food that exists? No, absolutely not. It's good, it's good, don't get me wrong. It has polyphenols, it actually has some soluble fiber. But the thing about coffee is it's the one thing that when you're a coffee drinker, you do it every day, you're consistent. And it's a snowball effect. The thing that you do with the microbiome consistently, it will start with a small effect on that snowball. That snowball is a pebble, and then a marble, and then a tennis ball, and then a softball, and then a basketball, and eventually it's that big snowball careening powerfully down the side of a mountain. This is how small choices can have big profound effects on our health. And it's true within the microbiome. The microbiome thrives off of consistency because of the momentum that you can build. So because, um, this supplement is, and you know, a person could, in theory, replace this with a different supplement, it just wouldn't be the same. But, um, because this supplement includes the things that our gut basically needs, the fiber, the resistant starches, and the polyphenols, by taking it at that time on a consistent daily basis, it's helping me to basically get that momentum that I'm looking for with the microbiome.

That makes sense. And you've mentioned a couple times now the fact that there's a few different foods in there, polyphenols, resistant starch, and fiber, which we could further break down into soluble, insoluble. Talk about the differences there, and if there's any overlap as foods for the microbiome. And I want to get into that. If somebody's missing one of those, can they make up for it in a different area, or do they need all those every day?

So I would start in explaining this, thank you for that question, by talking about the my mindset as I was formulating the supplement and the scientific justification for this product. And then I want to expand that to include nutrition because to me, the main source of these things actually should be our diet. It should not be a supplement. Um, so, what we know is that each of these is a different class of prebiotic. Prebiotic PR is food for the microbiome. The microbes actually metabolize it, they break it down, transform it, it becomes different, and then the microbes grow as a result of this. And they typically will release something called postbiotics. So in the postbiotics are the chemicals produced by the microbiome that have beneficial effects on our body. The absolute classic postbiotic are the short chain fatty acids, butyrate, acetate, and propionate. And we get those when the microbiome consumes fiber, specifically and typically soluble fiber. Soluble fiber stops being soluble fiber, microbes grow, and they release these short chain fatty acids that have effects right there in the gut and also throughout the entire body, like literally all the way into our brain. Okay. Well, it turns out that that fiber isn't the only way to produce these short chain fatty acids. It turns out that resistant starch actually allows us to produce as much or even more. And resistant starch is conceptually similar to soluble fiber, but it's not fiber, it's starch. But we call it resistant starch because we don't have the enzymes to digest it. So it arrives to the colon intact, and then the microbes digest it to produce short chain fatty acids. The third form of prebiotic are the polyphenols. Polyphenols are quite different than fiber and resistant starch, and they don't get directly turned into short chain fatty acids. Instead, polyphenols are these, um, you may hear them described as antioxidant compounds. People who talk about the benefits of wine, they're talking about resveratrol. Resveratrol is a polyphenol. The colors in our food, the reason why blueberries are blue, and cherries are red, and, um, and orange is orange is because of polyphenols. They, they're responsible for those colors. And there are at least 8,000 unique polyphenols that exist. They're found in plant-based foods. And the fascinating thing is that our body does not absorb them for the most part. 90 to 95% of polyphenols will actually make their way to the microbiome, and then our microbes activate them. And in activating, we get the benefits. So when people talk about how great resveratrol is, or quercetin, or curcumin, or any other of these class of, um, chemicals, I just want people to hear and understand the reason why they're good is because of the microbiome. So what happens with polyphenols, though, is that they actually prime the microbiome. The microbiome becomes shaped in a way because it does change the microbiome. The microbiome, in response to the polyphenols, gets shaped in a way where it is designed to efficiently produce short chain fatty acids. So when you combine these things, you're creating a synergistic effect. The fiber and the resistant starches will ultimately turn into short chain fatty acids, and the polyphenols are priming the microbiome to to basically efficiently, um, uh, do that process and manufacture those short chain fatty acids.

All right, so that's the concept behind the the supplement, Daily Microbiome Nutrition. But let me zoom out. Um, we should not be getting most of our fiber or resistant starch or polyphenols from supplements. We should get them in our diet. And the way in which we do this is quite simply, these are all plant-based nutrients. So we get them by eating a diverse range of plant-based foods: fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts, and legumes. And the variety is the key because, and I, I believe that you and I discussed this back in our original episode, but I want to bring it forward again because it's so important. We talked about the power of fermented food, and now I'm going to add another concept for nutrition, which is the power of variety in our diet. Different, different foods have different nutrients that can support and nurture a healthier gut microbiome. So we need to add more variety to our diet. So I think the way that I approach these general issues, Jesse, is like, I want to optimize my diet. I'm teaching some of the concepts that I personally follow in my life, some of the concepts that I have shared with patients through the years. I support that with a healthy lifestyle that includes these circadian things and good sleep and exercise and human connection. And then there's this place where, to me, there's a role where supplements allow me to achieve things that I would not be able to achieve with my diet and my lifestyle alone. I can take it to a higher level.

Sticking with the diet piece, we know there's these three different categories now of food for the microbiome. You mentioned the key is diversity, which is your goal. Rule eating diverse in a practical sense, though, if somebody, because left there, that's pretty arbitrary. How do we make sure on a regular basis we're getting enough diversity to get enough of each of these three nutrients to facilitate an optimal microbiome?

Okay, if you go to your store and you eat, eat things that come in a package from the middle of the store, and it says plant-based, that's not the type of food that we're here talking about. That is an ultra-processed food, and they're just playing you with their marketing strategy. What I'm talking about is a food where you don't need an ingredient list, it's just real. And I'm a big believer that there are many forms of a healthy diet, not just one. Much like you have a unique microbiome, and so do I, and so does the listener at home, there are many forms of a healthy diet. But I'm also of the belief that eating plants is one of the core strategies for supporting the microbiome and then achieving optimal health. And, um, so we think about varieties of different plants within the diet. And to benchmark this, in the study that brought this concept forward for the first time, it was called the American Gut Project. But by the way, it wasn't just Americans, it was an international study. In that study, the the researchers, they asked the question, what is the most powerful thing that a person can do in order to have a healthier gut? And by healthier gut, I mean more diversity within the gut. And the answer to the question was, eat 30 different plants per week. That was the key, 30 different plants per week. Now, what counts as a plant? All fruit, all vegetables. I want people to hear me, if you're eating this way, your diet should not just be those two things, and it should not just be salads. All right? Because whole grains and legumes and seeds and nuts, and I'm going to throw mushrooms in there, and herbs and spices, these all count. Now, our food system does not want you to eat this way. Our food system wants to consolidate into monocrops: wheat, corn, and soy. If they had their way, that's all you would eat. If I have my way, can you consume some wheat, corn, and soy? Sure, the healthy kinds. But what I want you to eat is, I want you to walk into your supermarket and think about, hey, what am I going to put into that pasta sauce so it's not just sauce? Hey, if I'm making a bowl of soup or chili, what can I throw in there that's going to add more variety? Right? If I'm making a salad, what are the things that I can throw in there? I just want you to think about this when you're in the supermarket, and then I want that to carry into the kitchen, and then ultimately when you're at the plate, when you're at, when you're at the dinner table, and you're building your plate, diversity of plants, varieties of plants, how many can you get in there? And a simple way to do this, Jesse, from my perspective, and this is something that I'll do with my kids because it's fun, is we play a game and we count plant points. And we'll throw a sheet of paper up on the refrigerator, and you get one point for every single plant in your, in your meal, and you see who can get the most. So there's, this is the way that you approach this. And I don't want anyone to feel bad if they're less than 30. I probably started off 10 years ago eating six. So I just want you to see this direction and start to walk in this direction.

All right, so it's obvious your enthusiasm for plants and getting the diversity on a regular basis. From the other end of the spectrum, how do you look at plant toxins, oxalates, phytates, lectins, like gluten? Are you mindful of those and limiting them, or are there certain ones that you don't consume?

You know, it's a good question. Um, I tend to not share tremendous concern with those things. And because what I, I think that sometimes the way that our body feels is misunderstood. So let me, let me sort of unpack that for a quick moment. When people eat, um, beans, if you have underlying gut issues, especially if, if you have constipation, you may not feel well. And there's a clear-cut reason for this, which is that when you start increasing these high fiber, high resistant starch, high polyphenol foods, which by the way, beans and whole grains, those are like the most dense when it comes to fiber and resistant starches, when you start increasing them, you don't have the ability to digest that yourself. You are 100% reliant on your microbiome to do that for you. And people that have not been eating those foods, it is hard to change and start eating them. It is hard. The reason why is because your gut microbes are not designed to do this implicitly. They have to be taught. So you have to make the decision that you want to train your gut in order to process and digest these foods that perhaps you have not been eating. And, um, if you haven't been eating, you shouldn't feel bad. That's 95% of people out there, the vast majority of people. But if you make the decision after listening to this podcast, you know what, I want to give this a try and I want to just see where it goes and follow these ideas that Dr. B has, I would encourage you, please don't make a radical change. Please don't go and eat five bean chili because you said that it was healthy. I want you to start low and go slow. That's the key. So when you introduce these foods, I want to use a framework that's conceptually similar to exercise, which is that your gut is capable of doing whatever it is that you've been training it to do. And if you haven't been, um, if you haven't been eating beans, then that is conceptually similar to not being a runner and getting started on a training program. And when you do that and you try to make yourself into a runner, you can do this, but you have to start with short runs and the amount that your body can handle, and then you have to recover from that. And then when you're recovered, you run a little bit further. The same is true with our diet. If we have food like these plant-based foods that people may struggle to process and digest, um, it's because your gut microbiome is not adapted to them because you haven't been eating this way. And so when you introduce them, you have to, much like exercise, much like going to the gym, start with an amount that you can handle, which may not be much, and then allow your body to adapt, and then you can slowly increase over time. That's the way that I would approach that.

One of the challenges with including more plants in the diet is generally a lot of plant foods are higher in carbohydrates. And in today's world, in the West, there is a great majority of people that are metabolically unhealthy. I think the number is up to like 93%. Yeah, disturbingly high. For people that are in that boat or somewhere along the continuum of heading that way to being metabolically unhealthy, insulin resistance, pre-diabetic, whatever you want to call it, I could see how including more carbs, spiking blood glucose, spiking insulin, and continuing to push people down that path toward towards metabolic dysfunction could be problematic. So I'm just curious, your thoughts looking at including more plants, which is going to lead to more carbs, from that lens.

Well, first of all, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about that. Um, there's nuance to this topic, and so it's not so simple. And I think that the, the challenge is that there are many people, this is not just you, this is not just the listeners at home, this is also many nutritional scientists who like to focus on macronutrients: carbs, protein, and fat. Um, but the truth of how our body responds to our diet is far more complicated than those specific cylinders of nutrients. And there are good versions and bad versions of each. And I think that we would all agree there's good fats and there's bad, bad fats. And if I were to sit here and say that fat is bad, I would be a bad nutritionist or I would be a bad doctor. And if I were to say that protein is inherently bad, again, the same would be true. Nor would I say that carbs are inherently good. So allow me to make a distinction because there's good carbs and bad carbs. And the good carbs are fiber and resistant starch. Those are carbs, and they're not so quite easily spiking our blood sugar. In fact, they're quite the opposite. And if we look at metabolic health, those particular carbs actually are the dominant drivers towards metabolic health, right? And I would actually classify that they are more powerful than fat or the absence of carbs in terms of how, um, much they can do to improve metabolic health. But refined carbohydrates are a different story, and specifically sugar. But I think that it's also fair to hold flour accountable. And there is no doubt that when we consume foods that involve that include a lot of refined sugar and flour, we're going to spike our blood sugar. And you can add fiber to the formulation. And again, like there are ultra-processed foods where they are doing this, and I still would not advocate for that food. It might even have five grams of fiber, I still would not advocate for that food because it's an ultra-processed food that's filled up with these refined carbohydrates. When we eat real food, real food, we don't, you know, just to take this sort of complex nuance topic and try to distill it down to something that's much more simple. Real food contains a combination of carbohydrates, proteins, and fat. Yes, plant-based foods definitely have more carbohydrates. If you have insulin resistance, you can avoid, if you have type two diabetes or insulin resistance, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, you can lower your blood sugar by avoiding carbs in general. But are you actually reversing the metabolic problem, or are you just lowering your blood sugar by avoiding the carbs? To me, it's a bit similar to if I hurt my knee, if I lay on the couch, I don't feel pain in my knee. But ultimately, I have to heal the knee. And I would prefer to heal the knee and get back to a functional state where I can run and jump and play basketball and do the things that I love. And when it comes to our nutrition, I would rather help the people heal their metabolic disease so they can consume healthy food and not have to worry that whether blood sugar is going to do this or do that. Again, not to to say that there should be no concern about our blood sugar. It's more so to say, let's heal the root of the issue. Let's make the engine run the way it's supposed to. So, and I think that fiber and resistance starch are an important part of that. Even in high glycemic foods, Jesse, like berries, people who consume more berries actually reduce their likelihood of developing type two diabetes. And the reason why is because even though there's some natural sugar in there, you have the fiber and you have the polyphenols, which have beneficial effects. So, um, let me, let me say this just to be totally clear. I do think that you can be completely healthy on a low-carb ketogenic diet, has to be properly formulated. I also think you can be completely healthy on a high-carb plant-based diet. High carb, not meaning 70% high carb, meaning 55% because that's kind of what exists in nature when we eat real food. So I'm here to advocate for people eating real food and finding what works.

You touched on the fact that when we're having certain fiber, resistant starch, polyphenols, that the gut microbiome is going to take those and it sounded like, and here's where I want you to come in, form certain chemicals that are going to help us regain metabolic health. So what's the physiology there? Let's talk about what's getting fed, what's getting produced, and how that contributes to metabolic health.

All right, well, let's start with something very basic, and I think quite, um, timely right now with everything happening in health and wellness, which is our body's natural satiety mechanisms, our, our body's natural hunger mechanisms. Um, when we existed in nature for millions of years, there was no way to hack that. You lived in, uh, famine, and you got hungry, and that hunger motivated you to find a source of energy for your body. And you, and you ate until you satiated yourself, and then you stopped. The problem that we now have is that we have workarounds that create hunger confusion. Um, I would challenge people, and I'd be curious, Jesse, I would, I want to hear from you, have you ever, like, had a moment where you were, you found yourself eating and you didn't even understand why? You're just eating?

I'm sure I, I'm sure I've at least, you know, been enjoying something, feel full, and because of the, you know, flavor and crunch and whatnot, continue eating it beyond what I need.

Yeah, so they've actually shown that with ultra-processed foods, it actually creates hunger confusion. You don't know whether you're hungry or you're not hungry. Yeah, like chips and ice cream come to mind, things like that. Yeah. And, and you're, and you're not, you don't naturally have, like, there's not necessarily that burning in your stomach to say, I need food. You're just like, oh, I'm just eating this, and I don't even know why I'm eating this. I'm not even hungry, but I'm eating it anyway. And, and we do know that the ultra-processed foods result in overeating. All right, let's get back to the basics here. So the question was about metabolic health. The hottest thing in metabolic health right now are the GLP-1 agonists, like Ozempic, Wegovy. There's a place where these drugs are important and helpful to some people who really need them, don't get me wrong. But what are we doing from a cultural perspective when we don't have any form of dietary or lifestyle intervention on any level? We allow our food system to dominate us, creating addictive foods that make us confused about whether we're hungry or not hungry, that result in us overeating, resulting in metabolic problems because of the calorie excess that we consume, and then we solve that issue with a drug that basically bypasses our normal hormonal mechanisms for satiety and instead is designed to make us feel perpetually full. That's what we're doing right now. If we got back to a simpler approach of eating real food, through our gut microbiome, fiber results in the production of short chain fatty acids. Short chain fatty acids stimulate the cells lining the intestines to release the incretin hormones, including GLP-1 and peptide YY. Those hormones naturally exist, and we're just not eating food that basically activates them. Now, when it comes to other aspects of metabolic health, the metabolism, to me, is like this. How do you describe the metabolism? It's a little tricky. It's the engine of the car. All right, energy goes in, and that energy gets transformed into something else. And a car, gasoline becomes movement. So, and we want an efficient engine that's running clean. And in order to do that, we really need our gut microbiome to support us. And this has, um, become clear through a number of different studies that include some of the work that I've done, and also things like fecal transplant studies where they, for example, Jesse, took a group of young men, and gave them these young men, by the way, had insulin resistance, metabolic disease, and they gave these young men a new microbiome. And for a period of weeks, those men experienced improvement in their blood sugar, even though they did not change their diet. Based upon the fecal transplant, the problem was they didn't change their diet. So that microbiome that they received only lasted a few weeks and ultimately got replaced by their original microbiome because they maintained the same diet and lifestyle. They didn't make any changes. So I can tell you that in the work that we've done at Zoe, I mentioned earlier that Zoe is the science and nutrition company that I'm the US medical director, um, I can tell you that in the work that we've done at Zoe, we have research where we look at what is the dominant predictor of your blood sugar? And in the top five is the microbiome. What is the dominant predictor of your blood fat? Once again, microbiome is there. What is the dominant predictor of insulin release after a meal? Microbiome is right at the top, like I think number two. So all of these things, our metabolic health, ultimately are connected back to our microbiome. And one of the keys to maintaining a healthy, uh, metabolism includes energy balance, which we get from satiety hormones like GLP-1 and peptide YY, and blood sugar and blood fat balance, which is facilitated in part by our gut microbiome and the release of short chain fatty acids. For complete. We've.

talked about extensively the power of plants to feed the microbiome. What happens on a meat-only diet? Are predominantly meat can the microbiome feed on that? And then, because basically by going on a diet like that, it's a type of elimination diet, the next step would be fasting. So, what I want to do is look at a couple of these more extreme, quote-unquote, metabolic states and talk about what the microbiome feeds on. Obviously, there's still a microbiome there, and and changes that happen. Yeah, so these diets, I think that anytime, let me start by saying this, and this is not just exclusively talking about a meat-only diet. Um, I would talk about extremes on both ends, which is that when we go on extreme elimination diets of any variety, there's complexity to that, and there can be nutrients and micronutrients that we miss as a result of that. And that includes whether it's a vegan diet or variations on a vegan diet, like I have. Even if a person were to go vegan, I am not a fan of some of the vegan diets, like a fruit-only, things like this, right? And and the alternative would be, uh, a meat-only diet, and clearly there are some limitations to that from a nutritional perspective. So, if we're going to go in these directions, I definitely think that we, like the layperson, should have the support of of someone who can give them guidance on how to maintain the balance that they need, acknowledging that extreme eliminations reduce diversity within our diet and, as a result, put us in a vulnerable position for nutritional deficiencies. Um, what happens with the microbiome? We don't know. We don't have a good study. I can provide, uh, I can provide different theories, and some of them are more supportive, and some of them are less supportive. I will say this, beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is of course a ketone, right? Beta-hydroxybutyrate, butyrate. These are very similar, actually, from a chemical perspective. So, our body is actually designed, if you think about this, our body is designed to provide some version of short-chain fatty acids or something that activates those short-chain fatty acid receptors, whether we are feasting or in famine. This is the reason why our metabolism flips into burning fat to create ketones, and ketones include beta-hydroxybutyrate. Now, the evidence indicates that beta-hydroxybutyrate is not a one-to-one substitute for butyrate. Butyrate is definitely more powerful than the beta-hydroxybutyrate, the ketone. But I think that the ketones are essential, not just for protecting our brain, but the ketones are also simultaneously essential for protecting our gut within fasted states, low-carb states. So, that to me is the, um, part of the potential benefit that exists. I do believe that.

So, um, let me be clear on one thing. These topics, they can be quite nuanced, and I present them in a way that's my best way of trying to take complex topics and simplify. Um, but don't get me wrong, there are people who their gut needs a break, and they, they rest the gut, and during that time, the gut actually gets stronger, and that actually puts them into a better position in terms of their ability to then move forward. I've never been one to advocate for permanent dietary elimination. I've always been of the belief that if you eliminate, it should be on a temporary basis with subsequent reintroduction. But I am of the belief, I made the knee analogy a moment ago. If you hurt your knee and you lay on the couch all day, you won't feel pain, but you also won't be completely healing that knee. That's true, but also some people when they hurt their knee, they do need to lay on the couch for at least a period of time before they start to get back to rehab, right? So, I think from my perspective, if a person were to do a temporary, um, like serious elimination diet, like a, like a carnivore diet, and they find benefit from it, I think that's great. I think that where my concern is, is when we're talking about going long-term and committing to this as if this is your principal dietary pattern for six months, 12 months, and beyond that.

Coming back to your diet and your eating situation, you're narrowing that eating window on a regular basis. I think you said around noon or 1, you'll break your fast. Do you feel like you get into ketosis with that narrowed eating window on a regular basis, and is that one of the goals that you have by doing that? I don't think so. I've never actually, I'm quite curious about this question myself, and I've never actually, like, purchased one of the devices that allows you to measure ketones in your blood. Um, perhaps I should because I, I would be curious to see. But it would be my expectation when we're talking about roughly on the order of 8:00 PM until 12:00 noon the next day, so we're looking at about a 16-hour fast. Um, I don't know that that would be sufficient for me to actually get into ketosis, or if I did, it would be quite early stages of, I'm just starting to get those ketones up and running. Um, but, um, what I would say though, is that in my mind, the benefit of the ketone is conceptually similar to the benefit of the short-chain fatty acid. And for people who don't consume fiber, which again, is 95% of Americans, getting those ketones does provide benefits that they otherwise are not getting, even if it's not as powerful as butyrate. Where my argument is, is what's, I would love to see people try this other side where they're sufficiently fueling their gut microbes with those prebiotics that help to feed and fuel the production of butyrate and the other short-chain fatty acids. And then I like this idea of sort of metabolic switching in between, um, which is what's necessary, you know, fasting basically is necessary to do that. So, I do think it's a kind of interesting, although I haven't seen a good study to date. If anyone has one, I would love for them to send it to me. Um, I do think it's kind of interesting the idea of having your first meal being a ketogenic meal because then you maintain, by having a low-carb, high-fat meal, you actually maintain yourself in that, um, fasting, that mode of fasting where the production of ketones is actually possible. But I can't say that's what I actually do.

Well, let's talk about what you actually do. It's 12:01, you're starting to get hungry, you're going to break the fast. What would that look like? I, I, so I tend to be a lighter lunch and heavier dinner guy. And again, let me be the first to say that textbook and what we should do, that's not it. Um, we're actually much better off pushing our calories to the front and winding down in the evening and having less calories later in the day. Again, the reason why I make these choices has to do with our family. We have a family tradition. We have dinner with the kids every night, and we have dinner together. And so that tends to be my biggest meal of the day. So my lunch will typically be lighter. Um, today for lunch, I had a Mediterranean bowl. So, a lot of times I'll have something that's on the spectrum of either, uh, a burrito or burrito bowl or soup. By the way, we, um, I feel compelled to say this, like I don't, I don't know how you feel about bread, but I think that one of the big problems with bread is the quality that exists in our markets. And I've always believed that if you made your own bread, like sourdough, it's like you can't, I mean, it shouldn't be the backbone of your diet, but you can't tell me that some sourdough is destroying your health. And so we recently got a bread maker, and the beauty of this is that I can have like delicious fresh bread, which by the way, goes bad in three days because it doesn't have the preservatives like that our supermarket bread does. Um, I can make a delicious loaf of amazing bread that makes our house smell so nice for $1.50 using organic whole wheat rye flour. So, and I make a rye bread. And then I'll many times, Jesse, an example of lunch would be soup, but I'll add an extra can of beans, and that's just me because I'm a big bean guy. Um, for people who are not used to eating beans, please don't do that. But those, those are examples, salads, soups, simple stuff like that, sometimes burritos or burrito type bowl or something of that variety. And then for dinner, for dinner, um, so we're a typical family. Uh, even though I have a cookbook with a hundred different recipes, um, I think we're like everyone else, which is that we have sort of our rotation. So we have a taco night on Tuesday night. Um, for us, our tacos are being tacos, but it's basically like set out the tortillas, the beans, or my wife will make this, um, and it's actually in, I believe my first book, Fiber Fueled, it's a walnut-based taco filling. So, and it comes, the texture actually comes out quite similar to ground beef. So it doesn't taste like ground beef, but that's okay, it tastes good. And, um, so those fillings, and then like a whole bunch of accoutrements, so whatever different accoutrements you like, and everyone makes their own based on what they like. So, of course, avocado has to be there. Um, and then, uh, we have a spaghetti night. And I think what's different about our spaghetti, so, um, we buy our sauce. Like, I'm not trying to pretend that we make our own sauce. I love Rao's. I used to call it Rao's and people scolded me. So we get Rao's. But the difference is that the sauce is a vehicle for adding stuff. And a lot of times we'll make a loaf of bread, and then we'll have extra virgin olive oil, and we'll dip into the EVOO. So, in that combination, the hardiness, the filling nature of the bread with some EVOO, and then a bit of spaghetti, um, whole wheat pasta, organic, with the sauce with all kinds of different stuff in it, it works pretty well for us. So we do that kind of, that kind of thing.

Any meat at all, fish, dairy, eggs? I want to, um, build a bigger tent. So I sit here and say that a Mediterranean diet is a plant-based diet, and that so is a vegetarian diet, so is a pescatarian diet, and so is a vegan diet. I don't think that vegan is the only way. In fact, I think that vegan is an ethical choice more so than a nutrition choice, because actually nutrition is easier by not going that way. So, um, in our house, we don't consume those foods. So, like when we do milk, we do soy milk, and I will fully acknowledge there are some ethical elements to that particular choice. Um, when I do kefir, I do a coconut milk kefir, and it is delicious and fantastic. Um, but like kefir from dairy, again, that's a fermented food that is the healthiest form of dairy that exists. So, and then, um, when it comes to meat, to me, clearly at the top of the totem pole, if I were to arrange an order of priority, at the absolute bottom would be the ultra-processed meats, and at the absolute top, I would put fish and shellfish. And the reason why, in part, is the, uh, omega-3 fats that we can get from them. So, we live in Charleston, South Carolina, where oysters are very popular during cold months. I was never exposed to this prior to moving here. But actually, oysters, if you take a look at them, they, um, they have no central nervous system, they have no peripheral nervous system, they, there's no evidence that they socialize in any way. They have mechanisms that are quite similar to plants in most ways. It's just that their texture is like meat. And I actually believe that oysters are vegan and they're good for the environment. So during oyster season, which is going to be starting up, like roughly November, I consume oysters. It's part of my diet.

Nice. But other than oysters, that's the only product that most people would consider an animal product that you guys consume? Yeah, that's the only product that we consume. But I, I will be the first to say that, you know, for example, um, a healthy diet absolutely can include things that I'm not describing right now. Like there is, you know, again, there is an ethical element to some of our choices as a family. Um, but, you know, as an example, in the Adventist Health Study 2, which is often cited because in the US, that's the best study that we have to look at the effect of vegetarian and vegan diets, the longest-lived population that study were the pescatarians. So, I'm, I'm in full acknowledgment of that. I think if we're going to, if we're going to cite the Adventist Health Study 2, we have to acknowledge what the data says.

What about seed oils? A lot of controversy in the health world these days, avoiding those, the toxic impact on cell membrane. Do you include any of those in home cooking? Do you worry about them when you eat out? How do you think about them? We used to eat out more, we don't eat out much. And part of this, Jesse, is because I have two kids who are under two, so my wife and I, we stay home and we eat most nights. Um, here, let me, here's my perspective on this. So, um, first of all, I would never make the argument that a person should go out of their way to add seed oils to their diet. Fried food clearly is not good for us. There is, there's evidence, it doesn't matter what fried, it doesn't matter what it is that you're frying, it's not good for us, and there's evidence that it inflicts harm on our microbiome. All right. I think it actually goes beyond, um, those oils at room temperature, that it's the heating is the problem. Okay. Do I think that seed oils are the worst thing that exists in all of nutrition? The answer is no, and I don't think that's what the data says either. I think that we can definitely do worse than seed oils, and there are definitely examples where if you replace certain things with seed oils, actually people get healthier. Again, I'm not advocating for them. The part that I do advocate for is that although I don't think it's an absolute requirement, because within the plant-based world, as I'm sure you know, but many people may not, there's a, there's a quite large pocket of people that are no oil, zero oil. That's okay. But the evidence with extra virgin olive oil, from my perspective, is quite clear, and among the oils, to me, extra virgin olive oil is the healthiest form that exists. I try to avoid cooking and heating the oil whenever possible. All right.

I know we're coming up on time, but one final question for you that I feel like we need to go back and address in regards to poop. And I don't mean to end on this, but I feel like for completeness, there we talked about shapes of poop using the poop stool, we got into a lot of detail, but we didn't talk about color. And the reason I feel like it's important we come back to this is because of specifically red in the poop being blood. And obviously, that is going to be alarming for people, and it doesn't necessarily mean one specific thing, but let's specifically hone in on that and then talk about the spectrum and why poop, in general, is a brown color. Okay. Well, these are, uh, um, bread and butter gastroenterology questions that you're asking me right now. And so, first of all, the poop is brown because of bile. Bile is a digestive juice that we get from our liver. It comes down from our liver through our bile ducts. Um, if you have a gallbladder, it accumulates in your gallbladder, and then when you eat a meal, the gallbladder squeezes and squirts out that bile, and it mixes with your food, and it helps you to absorb fat. This is the reason why people have gallbladder problems, they get that colicky pain after a meal, that's their gallbladder squeezing. Um, so that's the reason why poop is brown. Now, colors, there's many colors that we could talk about. Let me focus on the blood. Here's what people need to know. Um, blood, number one, is a cathartic. What that means is that it makes you poop. In small amounts, that may make no difference at all. If you got a little trickle, drip, drip, that's it, then it may not make you poop. But if there's enough of it, that will either show up in your stool being red or on the spectrum of black. All right. So, um, blood that exists within the intestines for a long time, if it's in there for hours, it will turn black, and the poop also has a really horrible smell that like, you will not miss unless you are completely congested. It's a horrible smell, and it's quite sticky like tar, right? And we call that melena, M-E-L-E-N-A, and that is many times indicative of an upper GI bleed, so like a stomach ulcer. On the flip side, if it comes out bright red, bright red blood means it has spent very little time inside your intestines. Most of the time that's coming from the rectum. That could mean hemorrhoids, could mean anal fissure. An anal fissure is like someone creating a, a tear or a paper cut within the anal sphincter. So hemorrhoids, anal fissure, or there could be something going on inside the bottom. All right. Um, now, uh, what people need to know is if you think that you see blood, I would encourage you to talk to your medical doctor about it and don't wait, because it can be, although it may be completely benign, it can also be a warning sign of something more serious that's going on, and you are way better finding out what's going on. Um, be aware that there are other things that can give us red poop, and the classic is beets. So beets will definitely give us red poops. Um, if you were to drink a lot of red Gatorade or red food dye, also would give you red poops. Black poops, we can get from iron pills, from Pepto-Bismol. So the bismuth actually turns our stool black. Um, or if you eat a whole bunch of blueberries, cups and cups of blueberries, like you go to a blueberry farm, you might have a black poop a day or two later. Um, so those are, that's the red to black spectrum. Again, if you see something, I would encourage you to talk to your doctor. A few other colors real quick. If a person has a bile duct blockage, like a, like a gallstone, for example, they might experience clay or like, you know, gray colored poops, and that means that their bile duct is blocked, right? That's because the bile is not able to get from the liver into the intestine. So that's the natural color of your poop without bile is like a clay color. Um, green, you can get if you do like a major green smoothie, um, or if you have an infection. And, um, and then blue, we kind of talked about with the melena, the black stuff, but like if you do a lot of blueberries, that could also give you a blue poop. And then to intentionally end on a lighter note after the red poop talk, there is a study, given the fact that what we consume, we can affect the color of the poop, that I've heard you talk about the Blue Muffin study. Talk about what, what happened there and how that could be used as a test to see how healthy things are in the gut. Yeah, so, um, this is a quite simple and interesting concept that we're thinking about what's called our gut transit time. And that is the time that if I had a stopwatch, it starts when the food enters my mouth and I swallow it, and it ends when I see it in the toilet bowl. And now, like some people would say, oh, well, I'll do beets or I'll eat some corn. Okay. And and you could definitely do that. But the important thing for this was that in this study, we used a specific thing, which was blue food dye. I'm not advocating for people to eat tons of blue food dye. It's like a one-time meal, and you have two muffins that have this blue food dye. And by consuming that, you can hit the stopwatch, see how long it takes, and it will show up in the toilet bowl. You will have a blue poop, and that time in between tells you what your gut transit time is. And so what's interesting about this is that different gut transit times have different meanings for the microbiome. So you can actually tell things about a person's gut and their gut health based upon that time. Um, faster is better. Now, when we get too fast, it's problematic. Like if you're having diarrhea, and it's less than 18 hours, then that's not good. But normal is somewhere in the range of 18 hours to two days. All right. So, I mean, most people poop, that poop will show up in one or two days. And then it's the people beyond two days that it is taking too long, and that's consistent with constipation. And so the, the point from, uh, from my perspective is that you, it comes back to you. You asked me, you know, how do we test? How do we measure? And yes, there are tests. Like I advocate for the Zoe test. There are tests that exist where we can look at a person's microbiome, we can actually test it, we can look at it for people who want to do that. It's, they're there. But I'm also here to tell you that there are these things that exist that are free. How do you feel? What's your complete health history? What is your poo look like? And then, Jesse, thank you for adding this for us. Number four is the blue poo, which is again, an experiment that anyone can do at home. So you just quite simply look at, you know, you eat the blue muffins or you make something with this blue food dye, and then you see how long it takes for it to show up in your poop. All right.

Dr. B, really enjoyed round two. I know I kept you a few extra minutes. Thank you. We're going to link up Zoe, we're going to link up your supplement, your books, website, social media, everything in the show notes. Thank you. Amazing, Jesse. Thank you. It's always fun and, uh, look forward to one day doing it again. Thank you. Now that you're done, you're going to want to stick around here and catch this other incredible episode. You don't want to miss it. I'll see you over there. Adding spores to a gut microbiome in three weeks increased the diversity of the gut microbiome by almost 25 to 30%, and it increased the growth of keystone species and it brought down pathogens. So the spores.