Armand Goșu. Rusia este deja în România. Cercul zero al lui Putin

[Music] Think about it, if these discussions and the rumors appearing in the press are confirmed, Crimea will remain in Russia's possession. You, Romania, are in danger, in great danger. To attack it, someone must defend it. Does it seem to you that someone here is preparing to defend against Russia? I think they will enter here like into cheese, they will control them, and this area suits them. It is exactly what they want to do. Our chance is that they are weak. They have clay feet. Western European sanctions hurt Russia much more. America is not in a position to dictate to Western Europe the lifting of sanctions. Romania is still a European country, to the extent that it has been a European country in recent years. It hasn't been more. Good, there will be a difference. The difference will be given by the fact that you will no longer be able to mimic. You don't have a true democracy. You are now paying for the way you raped democracy in the last 5-10 years. 35 years is not forgotten, and not by the West. Hey, what have you done, it's not very good how your democratization turned out. I love these capitalists very much, who only know how to make money from the state and to corrupt. Because in the Romanian government, you can count on the fingers of one hand how many citizens speak English, let alone having studied in Western [Music] countries.

Greetings to everyone! Welcome back to Leaders. These are interviews under the speakers' umbrella. Do you know what we do here? We look for the added value of the Romanian space, how we manage to solve certain problems, whether they are local or global. If you want, we are looking for Romanian know-how for the problems facing humanity and this part of the world. Today we are doing this interview or broadcasting this interview, attention, recorded two days earlier. It is an interview about the situation of peace and war in Ukraine and the consequences of how this war will end or the consequences of how peace will be concluded. Do you know why I say this? Because we have elections and we are also looking for a president to protect us from this issue or from the consequences of this peace, but especially because we know, it's certain, it's proven that Russia wants to exert its influence on this part of the world as well. My guest is Professor Armand Goșu. Good morning. Welcome. Good evening. Good evening. Nice to see you. We meet again after some time. Uh, can we, to open, can we use informal language or can we... Yes, we can, we know each other, we have known each other for 25 years, 20, 20 years, and maybe it's simpler and easier that way. You are one of the leading Romanian specialists in the Russian sphere. There are a few people, let's not exaggerate, there are, but unfortunately in Romania there are far too few compared to what is needed. This is a problem of Romania, a historical problem of Romania, if you will, because we have not managed to develop Russian studies, Sovietology, Kremlinology, as our neighbors have managed. We haven't even reached the level of the Hungarians. This is also due to the fact that we are a Latin nation, that is, we are not a Slavic people. A difficulty is probably learning the Russian language and a chronic disinterest in the Eastern space in Romania. From the end of the 19th century, if you look, universities have had few people specialized in Slavic, in Old Church Slavonic, in Slavic culture in Romania.

Are you a Russian speaker? Yes. Absolutely by chance. I mean, not because you learned. I had to. Yes. And today I will tell you more about Armand Goșu's biography later on. This is not our first interview, it's the first here at Leaders. We are going into the Kremlin kitchen today. Among other things, we will explain who the eminence grises or influencers on Putin are. Yes. We will tell you who the propagandists with the greatest influence in Russia are. We will tell you this hypothesis that Professor Armand Goșu has been studying for some time and has recently brought into the public domain regarding Russia's special interest in Romania, Serbia, and Bulgaria. But before anything else, we must see this issue. So we are recording on the 22nd, note that it is important, April 22nd, we will broadcast on April 24th. Meanwhile, a meeting will take place in London that could accelerate the peace process. Did I express myself well? It could accelerate it, it could blow it up. We don't know. Explain to me, please, what we have. Tomorrow in London, so 12 hours from the moment we are making this recording, emissaries will meet in London, the Ukrainian delegation led by the head of the presidential office, Andrei Yermak, and the American delegation, Starmer and the British foreign minister will also be there, so the representatives of the UK, Great Britain, a security advisor from the Élysée, a security advisor from Berlin, and it will be an important meeting because the Ukrainians should give an answer to some requests, some requests, a drafted plan, let's say, which was confidential, obviously, which was transmitted last Friday, so almost a week ago in Paris when the first meeting took place in this format. So it's a format in which Steve Witkov participates on behalf of the United States, who is President Trump's special envoy for problems, for conflicts, because he participated in the Middle East, Israel, Gaza, he is also in the negotiations with Iran regarding nuclear weapons, and he also participates in the discussions with Putin. He is the envoy in whom Trump trusts, a man from real estate, a lawyer, a real estate agent who has a history with Trump and an old friendship. They have known each other since the 1980s and he is totally loyal to President Trump, that's why he is sent on these kinds of missions. Rubio is also there, the head of the State Department, the head of American diplomacy. And Wall or someone else will also participate, we don't know exactly, but the two, Rubio and Kit Kellog, were in Paris, maybe he will also be in London, I don't know. He is the envoy for the conflict, for the war in Ukraine, initially appointed by President Trump, but who is only used in the relationship with Kyiv because he is not necessarily accepted by Putin, who and the Russians consider him a little pro-Ukrainian. Let me say, but that's what I want... When Trump said he was making another attempt at peace, Armand Goșu, who was he talking to? No. Trump, at first Rubio said Rubio. Leaving from the airport, leaving Paris after that meeting that I mentioned earlier, he said that the meeting, we don't know how it went, but it went, but they weren't very smiling. He said that, sir, good, that's it, the president is making one more attempt and if not then he is no longer involved in these negotiations. By saying that, it's a form of pressure. It's a form of pressure on Ukraine and a form of pressure on Russia. Now, the truth is that in the relationship with Ukraine, the Americans had instruments of pressure, they haven't given them satellite intelligence for a week. They haven't let them pick up F-16s from Sol. They suspended weapons. Anyway, this administration doesn't deliver anything. Everything that has been delivered is old from the Biden period, but even those deliveries haven't been completed. And now we see how, I don't know, three weeks ago that hub where the American soldiers were in eastern Poland, where American weapons and ammunition were flowing, was decommissioned. And we see that they don't really have anything to defend with, that they don't really repel. What does Trump want to impose on the Ukrainians? Concessions to the Ukrainians. The problem is that he doesn't have an instrument of pressure on Putin, and then Putin can allow himself anything. And Trump started this discussion badly. He got involved from the beginning by imposing large, unilateral concessions from Ukraine. That is, now it's about negotiating the recognition, not the annexation of Crimea. How can you recognize the annexation of Crimea? That's what he's negotiating with Ukraine. That's probably what he wants to impose on Ukraine. But see, it's unclear because nothing is clear in the way Trump moves and in the way Trump negotiates. Everything is chaos here. Good. And if at Wednesday's meeting we are to look for a good sign, attention, we are recording on Tuesday, I say once again before Wednesday, let's say they agree. Yes. Now they can't agree. They will have to pretend to agree. Look, for example, what happened on Friday. Yes, it was Friday and it was Rubio who said: "Hey, if not, we're withdrawing, you're done." That as a form of pressure. On Saturday, after a few hours, or 20 hours, Putin said a truce for Easter. Well, Putin launched the idea of the peace truce to send a message to Trump, to please Trump to hear something like that. Because Trump doesn't exactly buy things like that. He wants to be the man who brings peace. He's obsessed with this posture, right? The man who brings peace, who ends conflicts and who deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. He was proposed from Romania. Did Putin respect this 37-hour truce? He didn't respect it, but it doesn't matter that he didn't respect it. The important thing is that he came up with this project, with this idea. Not two hours later, Zelensky also understood that it was a game. So it's practically a game on stage. Imagine, or let those who listen to us imagine the scene of a large theater, not the Bolshoi or a large opera house in Bucharest or somewhere. Good, on the same stage there are several actors, but two important characters, Putin and Zelensky. In the audience there is only one spectator, Trump. So the whole scene, everything that is happening now is a game. There is a play or fragments of plays in the big play for a single spectator sitting in the audience, Trump. And you have to impress that spectator. This explains why Putin launched this Easter truce initiative. At the same time, he didn't want this truce to continue for more than 30 hours. And when Zelensky came and said: "Let's do another truce for 30 days." He didn't comment, only Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, came and said that President Putin had not given any order to extend the truce, and a few hours later Odessa was bombed. A few hours after Odessa, 12 hours after Odessa, Zaporozhye was bombed. After Zaporozhye, in the middle of Tuesday, Kharkov was bombed. Stay tuned because in some time, in this interview, we will give explanations about Odessa. Professor Armand Goșu outlines a theory, a hypothesis that we must look at carefully. We will see what the arguments of this hypothesis are, that Russia is trying to obtain control of Odessa in these peace negotiations. But I will return to this. Why is control over Odessa important? For us as Romanians, for us, for you who are listening to this matter, it interests us obligatorily, so to speak. Let's look at it like this for a bit, Armand Goșu, let's say that some things are established at this meeting between the Americans and the Ukrainians. If things go as they should, Mr. Trump's envoy, Mr. Witkov, Witkov, should fly immediately to Moscow and announced this. Yes, he goes with the message. If things don't go well. He will go anyway. So he will have to present to Russia because Russia has not yet received a plan. Trump's plan doesn't exist. In fact, if you look at the press after Easter, Monday, Tuesday, you will see that the American press, citing sources from the White House, said that in fact it's not a plan, it's just some ideas to see how Ukraine, Paris, Berlin, London react to these ideas of Trump's. Maybe even what was floated these days with Crimea, the recognition of the annexation of Crimea, is simply an idea that is being floated by Trump to observe some reactions. Trump is not very sophisticated, but behind him there are still some people who observe these things. But at the end of the line, if you observe who is doing, who is controlling this game, my conviction is that it is not Trump, that it is not Trump. It's not Trump. Surprise me. I mean, who could it be if it's not Trump? Putin. Putin is controlling this game, brother. The game... Yes, yes. He got into Trump's mind. Let's develop that, I had other ideas, but you have to tell me this. What do you mean Putin controls Trump's diplomatic game? Putin is an intelligence officer. Putin is attentive when he receives files from services, from various institutions, the preparation of meetings and discussions. He pays attention to details that an ordinary politician would not necessarily be attentive to. For example, when you are sent on a mission abroad, right? You take a recruitment course. What does that recruitment course mean? That you have to study the person you are talking to. You have to see what he wants, how intensely he wants things. What are the soft spots, what are the weaknesses of that person, what would he like to hear. You have to win him over, convince him that... Putin knows how to play this game by the nature of the profession in which he was trained. I'm not talking about Trump now, I'll get to Trump too. I remind you of Bush Jr., so 2001, the first meeting when he calls him to Texas and tells the story of the little cross he had and which was from his mother and which burned in a fire, in a fire, and which... So the whole story, the little cross is a special story. It wasn't even for Bush, it was for the Republican electorate who voted for Bush. That's why I say it's very difficult to work with the Russians and... Why? Because they are not equal forces. The Russians know, they know the Americans very well, they know how they think. When they take the personal file of, not Trump or Bush, they know very well who votes, they know very well what sensitivities he has, they know very well that he will be attentive to signals that he gives to a type of electorate. Well, don't the others know? No. How? No, no. Trump doesn't even have a person who knows the Russian language. In his first term he had, it was Fiona Hill, right? No, no, they don't. I think the entire American administrative apparatus can deliver. No, no, no, they don't even have anyone on Europe. He tries to meet in Washington with 15 people who know Europe well. You won't find them. No. Well, you have to, they don't exist. They don't exist in the administration either. Go and talk to the American embassy. Go and talk to the Russian embassy. At the Russian embassy. Those know Romania, those know the Romanian language, and go to the American embassy to look for and discuss with them about Romania. Romania, here in Romania. Here the ambassador speaks Romanian. She has been in Romania for a long time. She has done a lot. Yes, but she is an ambassador, I think. Mrs. Cavalc came from the Democratic administration. I don't know today how many are businessmen. I don't know at the level at which the Russians, Romanians, Americans know. Ah, possible. I don't know how to say this, but how can I say this? That is, the Americans in these negotiations are totally unprepared. Totally unprepared. Totally unprepared. How did you send him? Think about it, do you have a friend who works in real estate? Yes, I do. The irony is, I do. Hey, send him to negotiate with the Russians, with Putin. Good. Here I have to explain. He doesn't even understand what's happening to him. Attention, he doesn't understand what's happening to him. Yes. Witkov, who has to take the plane to Moscow, the envoy who receives Mr. Putin with his hand on his heart. Who is this citizen? Eight hours waiting. Witkov waited there for eight hours. Eight hours. And in Moscow, this was the third meeting at S... and at the second meeting in Moscow he waited 10 hours. Trump's envoy stays in Putin's antechambers for absolutely... Yes. I didn't know this. I missed it. No, I don't sleep peacefully anymore. If Putin can do this to Trump's envoy. Yes. But who is this citizen? Steve Witkov. Yes. He is a lawyer who works in real estate, who has known Trump since '87. Trump needed him in a business. Trump himself worked in real estate, they are both from New York and started doing... and have a long-standing friendship of... 30-40 years. 40 years. So. So. Good. It's a story, one time Witkov went out of his office at one point in downtown New York to get a sandwich because he was starving, he had work until late at night, and he found his client there, he was spinning around a shelf with sandwiches and Trump didn't even have money for sandwiches and Witkov bought a sandwich. Trump remembered years later, look, man, I was starving, and Witk... But they are both linked by their passion for golf, by their profession. They are in real estate, real estate. That's where they made their money and they have great trust in each other. There are many things that bound them in life. They brought them very close. The problem is that, well, I have friends, but you don't send them to negotiate. Good. And Witkov has access to Putin even if he waits 80 hours. They speak directly. They have access to Putin through a very interesting character, Chiril Dimitriev is his name, who is turning 50 now and who is the president [Music] of a foundation for direct investment in the Russian economy. Those direct investments, if you look at what he has worked on so far, are investments from the Gulf countries. Saudi Arabia, and he and Putin. And he is a man who moves well in this world. He's a guy who... he's from Kyiv, so from Ukraine, he was sent. [Music] Good, he's Ukrainian, but he comes from the Soviet Union. He is... years old. He was sent very young to the United States. He studied in the United States, Harvard, Stanford, very good studies. He returned to Russia after his studies for a short time, because then in 2003 he left for Kyiv where he was [Music] he led the foundation of Pinchuk, who was the son-in-law of the then President Kuchma. After several years, I don't know how successfully he led, anyway, because he was a very wealthy man, a millionaire, a billionaire. In 2009 he returns to Russia, comes to Russia, comes to Moscow. Yes. Well, and he starts a very interesting career. But determinant in his career was the moment when he married Natalia Popova. Who is Natalia Popova, how can I say? She is, yes, she is the best friend of Yekaterina, Putin's daughter. That explains her career. Wait a minute. Putin has two daughters. Yes. Ok. Yes. Yekaterina deals with technological innovations. Yes. In Moscow. In Moscow. Moscow. In Moscow. Well. And Natalia, her best friend. She is a rather picturesque figure. So, she poses as a photo model in various magazines. She also presents herself as a scientist. She has five or six shows on various television channels, rather pathetic shows, but her relationship with Putin's daughter assures her this success and the fact that Chiril is married to Natalia was a kind of social lift, a kind of springboard for this very ambitious Chiril, to explode, to jump into high society. If you see him, he still moves among those people. Look, there is a photograph of him from the French embassy receiving the Legion of Honour and you see there that there are also boys from Putin's old gang. That is, he was somehow a character. He's from there. He's not necessarily the last arrival. Do you have any idea why France gave this citizen the Legion of Honour? Small services. He was a kind of Jolly Joker there. He did small favors, made small economic arrangements. He has the highest distinction, for example, from the Saudis. There are two orders that have been given, the most important distinctions from the Saudis have been given in Russia. One was given to Putin, the second was given to Chiril Dimitriev. So he's an influential man. Yes. An influential man. He is very influential, even very ambitious, but he is not the type of intelligence officers, the old boys from the first echelon with whom Putin worked from the services who are discreet. He is not discreet at all. He asks for interviews. He wants to come out. He wants to explain. And now he stepped on Lavrov's toes. He is... So he was with Lavrov in Riyadh on a delegation. The only one who gave an interview was Chiril Dimitriev. Chiril Dimitriev was in... So he is the one who insists on the relaunching of Russian-American relations and on focusing these relations on large gains. So he wants to lure Trump's people from Trump's entourage with enormous gains. So pay attention, his name first appeared in the Mueller report, if you remember. After the election, in the first election, the head of the FBI made a report about Russia's interference, especially the GRU, the Russian army's secret service, in America during the 2015 election campaign. Yes. Well, then, good, and a report resulted, a book, Chiril Dimitriev, if you search for the document, you will see that he appears on several occasions and some conversations he had there appear. And an interesting character because when Putin came out, he didn't have access to Putin, but he found a Lebanese who had access to Putin's son-in-law, not son, son-in-law. So. And through whom he could also reach the entourage of... Trump, we are talking about Trump, pardon. So he manages in a few months. George Nader, as the Americans call him, this Lebanese who is in prison, pedophilia, some horrible things with children 13-14 years old, sexual exploitation, a horrible thing like that, but there are the recordings that they found on the phone of this Nether Nader Lebanese through which Chiril Dimitriev managed, let's say, using the secret language, to informatively penetrate the entourage of the Trump family. The Trump family. Ah, Trump's son-in-law. I said Putin's son-in-law and he is... Yes, sorry, I made a mistake, and he uses a lot and gives on social networks, because we will need a diagram. Maybe we can put some photographs, it's complicated, you know? That's why I'm reluctant to give all these details. So we're talking about a very important Mr. Chiril Dimitriev. Yes. who is in Mr. Putin's ear there. He has this level of access. He is... Yes, if not through him, directly, through his daughter, through Yekaterina. Through Yekaterina. Ok. Being friends, family friends, right? His wife is her best friend. And implicitly they are friends too. Good. This Mr. Dimitriev has access to Mr. Putin. He is put to do all sorts of... He is sent by Putin. Attention, but Putin entrusted him, appointed him in the end because Lavrov got angry and said: "Hey, what is this guy doing? I'm the head of Russian diplomacy. How does this strange guy come over me? And then Putin told him to get out of Riyadh and then Putin told him... and moreover, this communication channel is privileged. Trump loves informal, non-diplomatic communication channels, not deep state, yes, something like that. And Putin answers him the same way: What do you want? Well, I want this. I'll send you how... So many things happen through this path. So Mr. Trump tells Mr. Witkov. Mr. Witkov goes to Mr. Dimitriev and they arrive at the first meeting, if you remember when Witkov arrived there. So Witkov is the one who negotiated very quickly, even from the time when Biden had participated in the negotiations for a truce in the ceasefire in Gaza. Yes. Hm. Yes. And at one point his plane, you saw the plane landing in Moscow. The world didn't understand and I said for sure he's discussing something related to the Russian presence in Syria or something like that, Russian business in Israel. No way. He meets with Putin and leaves there with an American professor who had been arrested for drug possession in 2021 at an airport in Russia. Do you remember, they let him go, after which this first contact, they arranged the discussion between the two, after which the two, between Trump and... telephone conversation, after which they came. And if you look at what he declares in interviews, Tucker Carlson or other interviews where he appears, not Steve Witko, you will see that he also takes on the Ukrainian nervousness, rightly so, because he takes over all the Russian stories in the interpretation given by the Kremlin, which exasperates the Ukrainians and despite the fact that after the meeting and the quarrel in the Oval Office, we saw that the Ukrainians refrain from criticizing Trump anymore, from commenting on anything related to It. However, they can't keep quiet because it's too much and the man is simply a kind of sounding board for Russian propaganda. Ah, so the man, instead of going to send the Russian message, the message to the Russians to the Russians, he takes over. He's like a sponge that... That's why I say that the Russians, from this point of view, read them much better. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not making an apology. Apology... I don't understand what you're saying, but that's what I teach. I also teach a course on secret services, you understand? And I look to see how they act, not being a professional. I only teach their history, but I see, I can't...

Să nu vezi că operațiuni, astea s operațiuni și că n au cum să nu reușească. E aicea trebuie să ne uităm și la chestiunea asta, pentru că la un moment dat există un site care se numește Russian Desk, la biroul rusesc. Ăsta-i de la Paris. Ăsta e de la Paris. Da. Puteți să-l găsiți desk-linițusi. Aici există o teză, o ipoteză care mai apare. O să revenim imediat la procesul de pace, dar e importantă ipoteza asta și la oamenii care se ocupă și vreau s-o testăm, Armand Goșu, această ipoteză. Sunt curios ce crezi despre ea. Zice așa: că există un plan rusesc pentru Statele Unite. Da. Se lipește de o teorie mai veche și de o carte mai veche, care spune că Statele Unite sunt victima unui act de spionaj sau, dacă vrei, de control rusesc, pregătit cu zeci de ani în urmă. Și aici apare în articolul ăsta numele lui Dughin și a lui Jirinovski, care spun, printre altele, domnule, că în ceea ce privește această pregătire pe care au făcut-o ei pentru Statele Unite, reușim ceea ce ne-am propus să facem fără succes de 500 de ani încoace. Schimbăm Vestul.

Întrebarea pe care vreau s-o pun este următoarea: Domnule, au control asupra administrației americane printr-o mega operațiune de spionaj? Multă lume discută și se uită la chestiunea asta. Nu e exclus așa ceva. Exclus așa ceva. Și atunci ce se întâmplă? Uite, o să vorbim imediat de un domn care se numește Vladislav Surkov. E unul dintre arhitecții aia… aia e altceva. Un… e un personaj foarte important… o discuție lungă. Ajung acolo. Dar care-i planul acesta al Rusiei pentru America? Pentru că tu mi-ai spus, băi, e vorba de nepregătire, că administrația Trump e nepregătită. E ceva mai mult de atât. S-a vorbit de-a lungul timpului de așa-numitul collusion, de încercarea rușilor de a influența legile americane. Reușită, nereușită. Stăpânesc părți din administrația americană. Dar nu trebuie să stăpânești toată administrația americană. Tu trebuie să creezi haos acolo. Asta e tot. Tu trebuie să… ca să pui o țară pe butuci, tu nu trebuie să controlezi informativ. Nu trebuie să-ți trimiți agenți acolo. Trebuie să manipulezi oamenii.

Nu, ca să înțeleagă lumea despre ce e vorba. Nu, în Rusia există o tradiție, nu-i ceva inventat de sovietici. Active measures, măsuri active în jargonul KGB. Americanii spun political warfare. Da. Sau hybrid warfare sau political warfare. Ce înseamnă asta? Înseamnă că în momentul în care Rusia nu poate să învingă pe câmpul de luptă un inamic, atunci Rusia își concentrează resursele, acțiunile pentru a-l… ăă… cum să spun… a-l mânca din interior. Ok? Ai reduce capacitatea, reziliența statului respectiv, a-l duce în pragul colapsului. Rusia nu face asta acum. Ea o face de câteva secole. Dacă te uiți la secolul 18, atunci principalul adversar al Rusiei era Suedia. Erau războaie pe care le câștiga Suedia, alte războaie pe care le câștiga Rusia. În secolul 18 nu aveau crize… lu’ crize dinastice în Rusia. Rusia investi foarte mulți bani în ce? În acest război… political warfare pe care îl ducea în Suedia. Ce însemna asta? Asta însemna că Rusia finanța în Suedia diverse partide politice, unele împotriva celorlalte. Și Suedia a fost dusă până în pragul colapsului. Și a salvat Suedia a fost faptul că generalul Bernadotte, care a ajuns pe tron… nu, fost general al lui… marșal al lui Napoleon, a devenit rege al Suediei, este cel care l-a consiliat pe Alexandru I, pe împăratul Rusiei în momentul campaniei lui Napoleon împotriva Rusiei 1812. Da. Și a declarat Suedia neutră. Suedia a fost neutră până acum doi ani când a aderat la NATO. Deci asta a salvat Suedia. Ok. Mai acum exista Polonia, după Suedia sau în același timp cu Suedia, cel mai mare adversar al Rusiei, da. A fost Polonia. Polonia a fost mâncată din interior de luptele dintre facțiunile nobiliare. Aceste lupte erau finanțate de Rusia. Pe tronul Poloniei a fost împins amanții Ecaterinei a doua. Rusia e foarte bună în astfel de operațiuni. Și acuma hai să nu mai continuăm enumerarea și vezi ce-i acuma în America. Vezi ce a fost în secolul 18 în Suedia și în Polonia. Nu ți se pare că sunt niște linii roșii, că sunt niște lucruri… similare, nu? Adică Rusia să fie alimentat atât facțiunile de extremă stângă cât și cele de extremă dreaptă. Se conturează haosul și apare un personaj slab pregătit precum e Trump.

Exact. Putea să apară unul și din partea cealaltă. Nu contează de unde. Important e să fie haos. Important e haosul și important e ca statul din interior să… să… să cedeze… reziliența lui, capacitatea instituțiilor de a funcționa să scadă. Iar în momentul ăsta tu ai o Americă practic fără instituții sau instituțiile le vezi paralizate. Tu nu vezi decât câteva voci foarte puține, izolate și ușor de izolat în America în momentul ăsta care trag semnal de alarmă și spun: „Ce se întâmplă e foarte grav”, nu? În rest, lumea este paralizată. Deci Trump nu face decât să-ți compromită democrația, libertatea presei, principiile alea de bază care fac să funcționeze societatea occidentală. Deci dacă America nu se trezește repede… de tot… într-un an, doi… să oprească acest parcurs, se va prăbuși. Eu citesc un pic de prin acest articol și o să te rog să… să-mi comentezi acolo unde este necesar. Prima afirmație acestui articol spune chiar ceea ce zici tu. Spune așa: „Serviciile secrete rusești lucrează de decenii ca să prăbușească America” și îmi spui că sunt aproape în… în pragul acestei… ăă… Deci, tot ceea ce s-a întâmplat în politicile Trump în doar câteva săptămâni par să funcționeze în favoarea… în favoarea Rusiei și aicea se referă la haosul din Statele Unite, îndepărtarea aliaților, oprirea administrației din funcțiune și așa mai departe. Jirinovski spune exact ceea ce citam mai devreme: „Domnule, am reușit după 500 de ani… îi punem pe ăștia în genunchi.” După care apare un domn Andrei Lugovoi care este citat aici spunând așa: „Astăzi ne-am luat revanșa, ne-am răzbunat după Războiul Rece.” Ă… cine este domnul Lugovoi?

Actor… deputat, cel care l-a otrăvit pe Litvinenko. El este la Londra. El este. Da. Da. Împotriva lui a deschis un caz în procuratura Marii Britanii. El este cel care i-a pus otravă… plutoniu în ceai lui Alexandru Litvinenko, ofițer FSB, care a fost trimis cu misiunea de a lichida pe… dizidentul… tot din FSB, nu… Alexandru Litvinenko… într-un articol… dacă mai țineți minte… la Londra 2006. Da. Trecut 20 de ani de atunci. Da. Da. Incredibil. Parcă comentam. Da, au trecut 20 de ani de la asasinarea lui Litvinenko. Da. Într-un articol publicat în februarie 2019, Vladimir Surkov, unul dintre arhitecții sistemului, a spus așa: că Rusia are un potențial de export considerabil în această materie și victoria trampismului pare să fie cea care… îl… cum să zic… îi dă dreptate și Alexandr Dughin la rândul lui spune… spune așa: „Anul ăsta, pe 19 martie, Putin și Trump au căzut de acord că ordinea mondială trebuie bazată pe mari puteri, nu pe liberalism.” Domnul Dughin este… vorbește în cunoștință de cauză sau bate câmpii? Pentru că domnul Dughin vorbește de un fel de înțelegere verbală, o cădere de acord a celor doi. Mult wishful thinking la el. El este un ideolog sau se vrea un ideolog. E apropiat de Kremlin, dar nu atât de apropiat cum ar vrea el să fie. În același timp, o bună parte din ideile lui au fost preluate în timp de administrația Putin. Iar în acest moment el conduce un centru de cercetări… Ilin… Ilia Ilin, care a fost un refugiat rus, filozof rus, refugiat în Occident, de… care a fost fascist, foarte apropiat de… și admirator al lui Hitler și e singurul filozof rus pe care se pare că Putin l-a citit. Oricum e singurul pe care-l citează, l-a citat cu mai multe ocazii. Deci… înființarea acestui centru presupune, după mine… ăă… dacă vrei… o alegere și alegerea e în favoarea acestui tip de… aceste ideologii dughinistofascistoide cu diverse elemente de… cu vag elemente de… conservatori… de panslavism, dacă vrei… să mai zice el aicea… zice, domnule… zice Putin l-a învățat pe Trump cum să distrugă status quo-ul. Da. Conventional wisdom, adică gândirea tradițională… în… Da. Bun. E și mult… și… și el crede, uite, domnule, Trump îl admiră pe Putin și Putin… și… și înțelege că singura lui șansă e să urmeze modelul lui Putin pentru că America… nu… să fie de acum încolo… pentru mult timp… pusă pe aceste… continuă că ăsta e articolul Françoise Thom, care e probabil cea mai bună, cea mai importantă expertă din Franța pe Rusia. Nu, ea are ultimele pasaje. Un articol foarte lung, dar care merită citit cu creionul în mână. La sfârșitul lui spune că marea temere a Kremlinului, a lui Dughin, a lui Putin e că nu această deviere a Americii de la democrație și de la… nu… regulile lumii occidentale… ăă… nu… n-o să fie de durată. Și cei de acolo spun: „Trebuie musai ca după 2028 să urmeze ori Pence ori altcineva care să imprime Americii o astfel de traiectorie, pentru că astfel există riscul ca America să se întoarcă…”

E dorință sau e chiar înțelegere? E wishful thinking mult aici. E wishful thinking mult aici și trebuie să reținem ceva foarte important și asta e o mare bătălie aici. Este o uriașă bătălie care se dă. Dar bătălia nu e pentru teritorii. Bătălia e pentru mințile oamenilor. Bun. Și atunci… nu… Kremlinul și propaganda rusă, care s foarte bun la asta, trebuie tot timpul să livreze și trebuie în primul rând să livreze idei, informații, pseudoinformații, multe sunt fake-uri pur și simplu, care să sugereze ce? Superioritatea… ăă… nu… Kremlinului, superioritatea politicii Rusiei, avantajele pe care le oferă o abordare de tip rusesc și faptul că Occidentul e decadent, că Occidentul e în pragul colapsului, că dacă nu mâine, atunci sigur poimâine se prăbușește NATO, se prăbușește Uniunea Europeană, tot se prăbușește și viitorul, pe fruntea viitorului scrie mare, frumos: Rusia. Evident, e propagandă pură și dură. Adică, ok, bun. Da, cumva au ajuns două puteri de genul ăsta sau administrațiile a două puteri să gândească… să gândească la fel. Mai fac o… Nu știm ce gândește administrația americană. Eu… fie… eu nu sunt expert pe America, dar nu m-aș grăbi să spun asta. Gândește mai degrabă ce… Dar rușii ar vrea ca administrația Trump să gândească în felul ăsta, dar nu s deloc convins că administrația Trump chiar gândește. Mie, deocamdată, Trump mi se pare haotic. Trump mi se pare că are o singură linie roșie, un fir roșu, nu? Care-i ghidează comportamentul, atitudinea și acțiunile. E ura față de Biden și față de democrați. Obsesia cu care el repetă că au fost… i… au fost… i… a fost furată victoria în 2020, că el a fost… el trebuia să fie președinte. Tot timpul repetă că acest război n-ar fi fost dacă aș fi fost eu președinte. Acest război n-ar fi fost dacă nu mi-ar fi furat alții alegerile, nu? Și acuma, recent, de Paște, păi… acea adresare este halucinantă în care numai că nu l-înjură pe fostul președinte Biden. Deci aceste uri, aceste obsesii pe care le are Trump și care… cred că s alimentate într-o teribilă frustrare, nu sunt cele de care se folosește Rusia. Se folosește Rusia… pentru că nu știu… experții ruși… Rușii au Institutul… America, care așa se numește… Institutul, dar America și Canada. Și acolo au câteva zeci de experți, unii s legați de servici… alții nu… pe situația americană. Acolo sunt și sociologi și istorici și politologi și oamenii ăia știu, trebuie să știe foarte bine ce se întâmplă în America. Ei sunt trimiși prin rotație în ambasada de la Washington a Rusiei. Noul ambasador al Rusiei, un cercetător la acest institut. El acolo și a făcut ucenicia, după care s-a dus în ministerul de externe și deci de asta spun că oamenii ăia s foarte bine pregătiți, foarte cinici. Ei nu cred în legislație internațională, nu cred în reguli, nu cred în nimic. Ei din școală sunt așa educați. Ei… și atunci, având acest bagaj cultural, principala lor grijă când ajung în birou acolo: „Cum poate să facă rău Americii? Ia să vedem ce mai… cum poate să exploateze o moment de tensiune undeva.” Au… au auzit într-o localitate că se întâmplă ceva. Dacă funcționează în logica asta diplomația rusă, normal că ajunge să inventeze, nu, tot felul de mecanisme din astea.

Înainte, înainte de a merge mai departe, trebuie să închid paranteza asta cu Dughin. A avut loc o încercare de asasinat asupra lui. Asupra fiicei lui, de fapt, cred că a fost a lui, dar victima a fost fiica lui, pentru că în ultimul moment a fost un schimb. I-au schimbat mașinile. El a… el a mers în spatele… dar ea a condus mașina lui și el a mers în spatele ei și a fost exploziv sub mașină care a ucis-o. Ei… asta… Daria Dughina… asta i-a dat lui o aură și mai mare. Adică e ca un fel de jertfă… cum să spun… cristică aproape, nu? Dacă vrei… biblică, nu? Și a jertfit copilul. Da, copilul. Da, asasinii au fost prinși… să știe cine… ce a făcut. Se știe. A fost operațiune… o femeie care a fost identificată pe camere video, n-a fost prinsă. Care au să fi fost scopurile acestui asasinat? Cine să fi fost acolo sau ce s-a mai scris? Să întreb de fapt… el… cred că era țintă. Adică el e un ideolog de frunte. Deci el e o țintă legitimă a serviciilor secrete ucrainiene. Nu de ieri, de azi. El este cel care… nu… a vorbit public în 2014, amintiți-vă la anexarea Crimeii, de faptul că nu ucrainenii trebuiesc uciși. Deci atât de violent a fost încât până și Facultatea de Sociologie de la Universitatea de… IMIOS a trebuit să-l dea afară. Înțelegi? Deci el e pus cam pe toate listele de sancțiuni. Apare numele. N-are cum să nu fie. Adică el invocă nevoia rușilor de a ucide ucraineni. Gen… deci nu doar că nu vine și zice, ok, niște momente cu genocidul, cu… crenin… din contră, el îl fundamentează teoretic. Bun. Înapoi la pace. Ești de acord că poate să fie o țintă legitimă?

De acord. Păi de asta… de asta și întrebam… ăă… înapoi la pace sau… mă rog… la inexistența ei. Au fost… a fost o rundă de negociere acolo între ruși și americani. Ăă… e… există ceva concret, vreun punct, vreun sprijin în toată povestea asta? A obținut cineva ceva? Cum de spus? Pentru că… Deci discută rușii cu americanii. Da. Bun. Rușii sunt implicați în conflict. Rușii au generat acest conflict. Rușii au atacat. Ei sunt pe front. Americanii nu sunt pe front. Cum pot americanii interveni și… păi punând presiune pe Ucraina… e suficient dacă pui presiune pe Ucraina? O să-ți dau o veste proastă sau… americanii știu că nu-i suficient. Uite eu merg la Kiev și-i întreb: „Ok, și acuma ce o să faceți? Uite Trump.” Păi ce, mă? Continuăm lupta. Păi cum continuați lupta că Trump nu vă mai dă? Păi stai puțin că noi luptăm împotriva rușilor. Din 2014 nimeni nu ne-a dat nimic… mulți ani și atunci stau să mă gândesc că nici Trump în realitate nu are instrumente foarte puternice, foarte mari de a pune suficientă presiune pe ucraineni. Deci până la urmă Putin ce face? Ce vrea să facă? Putin e suficient de abil. A încercat după 2015, după 2014, domn… primul… acord la Minsk în septembrie, al doilea acord la februarie 2015 să-i facă pe francezi și pe germani… că erau garanți, să pună ei presiune pe Ucraina ca Ucraina să accepte interpretarea rusească a acordurilor de la Minsk, nu? Ceea ce nemții și francezii au făcut multă vreme, dar la un moment dat și au dat și ei seama că totuși e prea mult. Ceea ce cer rușii e total nerezonabil. Au așteptat schimbarea președintelui Poroșenko. Au zis că… că vine neinstruitul Zelenski. Bă, ăla e tânăr, actoraș, nu se pricepe, prostuț. Și a fost un summit în decembrie 2019 la Paris… cu… singura dată când s-a întâlnit cu Putin, formatul Normandia… Putin acolo și l-a obligat la niște concesii… pe… a semnat niște… sau a promis niște lucruri. Când a ajuns acasă Zelenski… când a ajuns acasă Zelenski, lumea era în stradă, mai să-l dea jos. A înțeles că nu merge. Atunci a înțeles și Putin că această… această… această tactică a lui de a-l forța pe liderul Ucrainei să facă concesii folosindu-se de prin Berlin și Paris nu poate să mai dea rezultate. Și atunci a hotărât Putin invazia. Decizia de invadare a Ucrainei vine în… după 2014… după decembrie 2019… s-a copt când a avut loc acel summit de la Paris… s-a copt în mintea lui undeva în primăvara lui 2020 și atunci el începe să pregătească invazia. Da. Și cum pregătești invazia? O pregătești consolidându-te intern. Și atunci ce faci? Modifică constituția, nu? Și el modifică Constituția Federației Ruse. În vară e un referendum și ce mai face? Care era liderul opoziției, singurul care putea să-i pună probleme? Păi era Navalnîi. Ce-i face lui Navalnîi? În august îl otrăvește, nu? Și de atunci începe toată povestea și cu Navalnîi… îl otrăvește în avion. Navalnîi e trimis în martie 2021, nu? Putin și Șoigu, care era ministrul apărării, merg în… prin Altai pe acolo și au o discuție și presa… pur și simplu… Itartasul dă inclusiv fotografia lor… e zăpadă în spatele lor și ei fac acolo un fel de șașlâc, ceva. Eu cred că aia a fost discuția la care cei doi au luat decizia: „Domnule, o facem cu Ucraina, nu merge. Uite, trimitem armata și peste trei săptămâni tu vezi deja pe granițele Ucrainei trupe rusești și atunci intră americanii în panică.” Și în aprilie sună Casa Albă, noul președinte Biden, îl sună pe Putin și-i propune: „Hai să ne vedem la Geneva, hai un summit să ne întâlnim, să discutăm.” Are loc summitul de la Geneva, rezultatul nu-l mulțumește pe Putin și trei săptămâni și trei zile… pe 12 iulie, nu? Pe 15 are loc summitul. Pe 12 iulie, dacă intri pe site-ul kremlin.ru, administrația prezidențială din Rusia, o să vezi articolul ăla lung al lui Putin, care e un articol programatic despre unitatea istorică a rușilor și a ucrainenilor, unde el își expune concepția privind statalitatea ucraineană. Dacă citești articolul ăla, înțelegi că o să urmeze ceva, că nu-l scria de nebun altfel. Da. Putea să scrie nebun, dar nu. Ăla e un articol program, e prea important. Nu, hai să fim serioși. Nu, acuma lumea nu-l știe, Armand, pentru că tu… articolul… cum să nu vorbesc de publicul general… tu ești profesorul specializat în chestiunea asta. Publicul general… trebuie să știe… la studenți, normal… la studenți, publicul general trebuie să știe în linii mari ce spune acel articol despre statalitatea… statalitatea Ucrainei. Articolul fiind recitat după aceea lui Tucker Carlson, dar omul nu știa, era nepregătit în chestiunea asta. Asta e problema cu americanii când nu au făcut școala. Ce zice? Deci ce zice? E foarte interesant articolul. Merită citit. Bun. E puțin ilogic… să contrazică, dar e stilul lui Putin. Adică eu cred că au participat și alții la draft inițial, dar se simte… Putin… se simte… pentru că la un moment dat e și lipsit de logică… că sunt niște contradicții acolo, dar cred că articolul ăla surprinde cel mai bine… obsesiile lui Putin și… partidul față de Ucraina. Deci în linii mari e istoria Ucrainei și concluzia: „Domnule, ok, noi zicem că nu există popor ucrainian, națiune ucraineană, că s aceeași cu rușii, cu bioruși, dar deși într-un context istoric controversat a apărut statul ucrainian… inventat… aberant…” Așa. Și noi, rușii, am recunoscut independența Ucrainei în 1991. Noi putem accepta o Ucraină, da, dar o Ucraină care în sfera noastră de influență. Adică eu pot să accept statalitatea ucraineană cu o singură condiție, ca statul ucrainian să fie în zona mea de influență, să graviteze în jurul meu, în jurul Rusiei, în jurul Kremlinului. Și el spune: „Ce s-a întâmplat? În ultimii ani, Ucraina a fost transformată de americani în anti-Rusia, ceea ce e inadmisibil. Așa ceva Rusia nu poate admite.” Și într-un fel și explică politica agresivă a Rusiei față de acea Ucraină pe care americanii au transformat-o în… an, ceea ce evident e o aberație. Înțelegi? Deci el spune că națiunea, poporul ucrainian, limba ucraineană nu există, că sunt una și aceeași… și cultural și lingvistic și religios și istoric sunt una și același… unul și același popor. Da. Da. Dar admite că, domnule, Rusia a recunoscut independența Ucrainei, există statalitatea ucraineană. Ok. Noi acceptăm cu o singură condiție, ca acea Ucraină să fie… să nu fie anti… anti-Rusia, adică să fie un fel de Belarus 2. Un Belarus mai mare.

E foarte important pentru cei care ne ascultă, mai ales că sunt mii de mesaje pe rețelele sociale. Există națiunea ucraineană? Cum să nu existe națiunea ucraineană? Eu întreb, dar nu… hai să-ți explic de unde obsesia asta că nu există… Ucraina are și ea o istorie… ei… și istoria ei datează din secolul 17. Știu că o să zică lumea: „Bă, transformat… coș… s-a transformat și el în Putin.” Vine cu legit de istorie. Dar ca să înțelegeți de unde Putin are această idee, de unde a pescuit-o el, că nu există națiune ucraineană… Dacă te întorci în secolul 17, o să vezi că un război care a schimbat fața Europei se încheie cu pacea, nu? Războiul de 30 de ani, 1648. Ăla-i momentul în care… nu… cea mai mare parte a teritoriului Ucrainei… care ținea de… de Marele Ducat al Lituaniei, care din secolul 14 forma un stat comun cu Polonia… trece din stăpânirea Lituaniei… stăpânirea polonezilor. Acea nobilime poloneză vrea să pună mâna pe terenurile din Ucraina pentru care oamenii ăia din Ucraina nu avuseseră nevoie de documente. Acuma vin ăștia cu latina. Hai să… Bun. Și se iscă tensiuni între polonezi, nobilimea poloneză, nobilimea scăpată care vrea să fure pământurile cazacilor și… cazaci. Și atunci la 1648 începe un război. Nu… numele ăsta e foarte important. Este vorba de Hmelnițki. Bogdan Hmelnițki este ales șeful cazacilor. Este căpetenia cazacilor zaporojeni. Adună oaste căzăcească și merge și bate pe polonezi în alianță cu tătarii din Crimeea și mai merge și peste câțiva ani și mai bate o dată pe polonezi. Polonezii strâng armată mare, vin, îi cumpără pe tătarii din Crimeea, care erau aliații lui Hmelnițki. Tătarii din Crimeea îl arestează pe Hmelnițki în timpul campaniei militare. Îl țin vreo săptămână cât să-i bată polonezii pe cazaci, după care îi dau drumul. Și atunci, neavând tătarii, aliații tăi, în fața cazașcilor se punea… vrea să găsească un aliat ca să-i poată învinge pe polonezi. Și aliatul care era la îndemână… Imperiul Otoman nu vrea să intervină, nu avea altceva. Era Rusia. Mascovie, nu era Rusia. Mascovie se numea. Mascovie era departe, avea alte granițe. Mascovie luptase cu 70… 60… 70 de ani în urmă cu polonezii. Smutne… e vremea… vremurile tulbure. La începutul secolului 17, că… a fost… polonezii… a ocupat pentru mai mulți ani Moscova și era acolo un țar Alexei Mihailovici care a zis… era al doilea Romanov. Zis: „Nu, nu, nu, nu, nu, nu, nu, nu mă bag.” Dar ei aveau și un patriarh Tihon care a zis: „Cum nu ne băgăm? Ne băgăm.” Și atunci, sub presiunea patriarhului… Duma… boierii votează în favoarea unui act de alianță. Au crezut… ucrainienii… supunere și subordonare, au zis boierii ruși. În schimbul ajutorului militar împotriva polonezilor, nu? Ucrainienii se supuneau rușilor. Nu s-a păstrat documentul original atunci și oricum diplomatica rusească era diferită de cea occidentală. Acest moment este ianuarie 1654, care în istoriografia rusă este interpretat ca momentul fondării statului comun Rusia-Ucraina, dar cu două națiuni diferite, ceea ce n-a existat. Nu se punea problema de națiune atunci. Națiunea e un concept de secol… Aha. Noi suntem la 1654. Suntem în cu totul alt film. Și a funcționat statul ăla? A existat? N-a existat. Nu au ajutat. Rușii n-au dat doi bani atunci… pe ei… nu vreau. Era frică de polonezi și nu i-au ajutat pe cazaci împotriva polonezilor și situația cazacilor era disperată și era un… bătrân egumen la Kiev. El era mai mare peste Mănăstirea Peșterilor din Kiev… nu… Lavra Peșcerska. Nu. Al doilea loc considerat din lumea ortodoxă, sfântul… patos. Da. Lavra Peșterilor din Kiev, unde ai sute de metri de prin pământ de peșteri unde sunt pe dreapta și pe stânga mumificați… nu… sunt sfinți… rămășițe ale lor acolo… cu icoane, cu… E impresionant. Merită să mergi. Bun. Și preotul ăsta îl chema Inochentie Ghizel pe el. El e de fapt din Königsberg. El e prusac, dar e un prusac care de tânăr vine în Kiev, în lumea ortodoxă și mitropolitul Movilă… Movilă vede în el un om talentat… trimite la școală, face școală la iezuitism, la… Liov… la… se întoarce și sub ocrotirea lui Petru Movilă începe să capete funcții importante… să… ei… acestui om care, repet, era neamț, dar era un neamț naturalizat în Ucraina… îi vine ideea să scrie o carte care era o carte pentru un singur cititor sau… pentru… maimuțelor… pentru țară în primul rând. Se numește cartea aia Sintaxis. A apărut la 1672 și în cartea aia el insistă asupra faptului că între ucrainieni și ruși nu sunt… nu e nicio deosebire și că și rușii și ucrainenii sunt la fel, insistând și pe partea religioasă, ceea ce e o minciună. Patriarhul Moscovei nu-i considera sau îi considera păgâni pe ortodocșii din Ucraina, motiv pentru care atunci când ajungeau în Rusia erau rebotezați, considerau că nu sunt în dreapta credință. Bun, deci ideea inițială că rușii și ucrainenii sunt un singur popor și că nu sunt diferențe între ei, aparține acestui neamț, care trece la ortodoxie, care se numește Inochentie Ghizel și care a publicat această carte Sintaxis la 1672. Cartea asta a avut 16 ediții. După cartea asta au învățat toți țarii Rusiei. Nu întâmplător denumirea de Rusia apare odată cu Petru cel Mare, adică la 20 de ani după ce publică Inochentie Ghizel această carte. Înainte se numea Mascovie. A scris o… ca să-l…

Convince the Tsar that Ukrainians deserve help against the Poles, to attract Mascovia, that is, the Tsar of Mascovia, to give him a reason to offer, to offer, to offer an ideological reason. This ideological reason seems to have been transformed into a kind of trap. Based on Russia. Come on, but does anyone know this 300 years ago? Now, all Russian historiography, all those who were historians of the 18th and 19th centuries were inspired by the syntax of Nochentie Ghize and did not say: "Oh, wait a minute, you haven't actually separated." So imagine. Let's explain it so that people understand. So you have Slavs, you have several groups of Slavs. You have the South Slavs, Slavs, you have Belgrade, Sofia, yes, Croatia. Well, let's say with this example. And you have Russians in, you have Slavic. Slaves, what do you have? Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians. Yes. Well, imagine what it would be like for you to interpret the history of the South Slavs as a unitary history. That is, to have Bulgarians and Montenegrins and everyone. It would be an aberration, right? Equally aberrant is a unitary, uniform interpretation, creating this mix of the history of the East Slavs. There are different peoples there, they have had different trajectories. The Poles and Czechs and Slovaks and Serbs and Croats and Bulgarians are Slavs. No one has ever made such an amalgam to interpret their history in this unitary key, because such a thing does not exist. This only happened with the East Slavs, for a reason I told you about, namely for purely military interests, to convince the Muscovites to provide military aid to the Zaporozhian Cossacks against the Poles. And Russia has this legacy, after which it begins to expand, right? I mean, wait a minute, Russia arrives late, quite late. It arrives there after more than 100 years. More than 100 years. The partitions of Poland are very important because this territory of present-day Ukraine, most of it was within the borders of the Polish state. It was actually a kingdom, it was a republic. Yes. Where the king was elected. Yes. Okay. This is, when is this? This is very late. 1772. The first one. This is it. You tell me now, Arman Goșu, that this is the historical context that Vladimir Putin uses to claim, but he uses it, he reinterprets it by taking over all the mythology of old Russian historiography, uncritically and therefore one of the priorities of the Putin administration since his first term has been writing history. Dictators always start with this. So the change, the change of the constitution, the elimination of the opposition, the writing of history. What are you talking about now? You're talking about 2020. I'm talking about the year 2000, 2001, 2002 when Putin, through his people, began to control the associations of historians. How history was taught, he intervened personally, not giving instructions, a kind of Ceaușescu, all dictators. Stalin was very interested in history. What does he dream of? What is his ideal Russia, his ideal sphere of influence? What should it look like? Man, not ideal. He, he wants to go into textbooks as, no, Sabiratel Ruschik Zemel, the one who gathers the Russian lands. What are the Russian lands? I looked at the whole globe now, if possible. This is because there is a gentleman who is called Sur, Surcov. Surcov. Turcov, who has a recent interview and says that kind of joke, but he says it seriously, what they are, how far Russia extends, how far it wants to go, what they are and he says it himself and says the only thing we need to be careful about is how much territory we can eminently control, but with the army and that, that is, how much they don't have enough resources and they shouldn't occupy too much. Exactly. Don't occupy too much. That's it. Why not all of Europe, he says? I don't have the quote exactly in front of me, I'm referring to an interview from a few weeks ago. Yes. From a few weeks ago, from a few weeks ago, pay attention, in the conditions in which Russia is also taking a beating on the front, it's not going so well, but he says why not all of Europe, that is, ultimately what is stopping us? And he says, lack of resources is stopping us. So we need to settle somewhere. Yes. We'll wait until we grow more, until we... That's it. Let's see what's in Putin's head today. Well, it's nowhere. No, it depends where you stop him. It doesn't depend on him, it depends on us. Ah, okay. Good that you enlightened me. That he has no borders in his head. He has no problem. He's in the Atlantic. He takes the coasts of the Black Sea. He doesn't care. Aha. That makes more sense. And you have to stop him. That makes more sense now. Armand Goșu, thank you for telling me. So you have to stop him. We'll get to that right away. So Mr. Putin thinks like the expanding universe. Right? That is, he expands. Man, we're going this far. And now maybe it's time to talk about this hypothesis of yours that you have. Wait a minute, it's not my hypothesis, but let's say it's mine if it's simpler for the discussion and it's not a hypothesis, right? This is an interpretation given by Alexandr Dughin, whom you talked about earlier and who I said is an ideologue, an important guy there. He is probably the most important ideologue of Eurasianism. No, Eurasianism is a theory. It's a theory that appeared after the First World War in exile, which says what? You don't have two great civilizations. You have Western civilization and Chinese civilization. No. And Russia is the third Eurasian civilization. Yes. Good. It deserves a broader discussion, but let's leave it aside. Let's go back to Dughin. Yes. Dughin publishes in 1997. In 1997 it ended up in my hands. I was in Moscow then. Yes. I was doing my doctorate and a fellow doctoral student of mine, I think he was in sociology, gave me Osnovi geopolitiki, the foundations of geopolitics, and he told me that it writes something interesting about Moldova and Romania there and I said how long can I keep it? Well, when we have class next week, you'll give it back to me. I haven't met this guy again afterwards, he was then, I think there were two or three of them who stayed together. I think he was in Nemtsov's office. Nemtsov was then the first deputy prime minister in the Russian government. Boris Nemtsov. This guy was from Nizhny Novgorod, he had been brought there by Nemtsov. Boris Nemtsov, who was mayor in that area. Successful as a reformist mayor, he was killed under the windows in 2015. Yes. A very interesting story and he tells me that there is something interesting and I open it at that moment and here I am good at theories, here is the book by Alexandru Dughin and he takes over what I had heard but it was a picturesque character. You couldn't take them seriously. He published in these dubious magazines and I read and he, with the talasocracy with the two, that is, starting from the not basic principles of geopolitics, land powers, naval powers, Heartland, the role of Russia. And I arrive and I find and I kept turning pages. I got to Moldova, to Romania and there appears this idea that Moldova, Russia must support the union of Moldova with the Republic of Moldova, Romania with the Republic of Moldova, like that, and the attraction of Romania united with the Republic of Moldova into Russia's sphere of influence. And interestingly, let's see further. And he develops this idea and says that look, Romania, our problem with Romania is that it is Latin, but we have the advantage that Romania is Orthodox like us. But the fact that it's Latin awakens us, creates some problems for us. Because in Transylvania there are even bigger problems because not only are they Latin, but they are also Greek Catholics, so they belong to another, another civilization, another area, and so on. Why is what he said important? On this space they must make the connection. It is essential because it makes the connection between not the Orthodox Slavs from Ukraine and the Orthodox Slavs from Bulgaria, Serbia and the basic idea is that Russia must achieve the unity of the Slavs, a kind of rehashed and articulated Panslavism in this book. And then Romania must also enter this scheme, this... That is, Serbia plus Bulgaria, yes, should come under influence, but to get there, it's a matter of going through Romania, you can't skip Romania, you can't teleport yourself. So Romania must also be introduced into a zone of influence of Russia. 30 years later. Let's relate it to the war. Well, you said you read it in '97, that's what I'm saying. Think about the fact that after this book and this I found out that at first it seemed funny to me when I gave the book back, the stick of stupidity and he said: "No, no, no, it's not stupidity. Pay attention to something. Everyone around us, that is, cabinet officials, administrative officials, service people, military people are reading this book. They are intellectually setting themselves by reading Osnovi geopolitiki by Dughin. So this idea could be well enough screwed into the minds of those, obviously into the minds of those who still read. It's a book that has 500 pages. Bring it in 2025. We have, wait, this means nothing now. Yes. I ask you, do you have a war? Yes. You say in an interview you gave to Magda Grădinaru a few days ago that from this point of view, strictly from that point of view, it was completely different. It had nothing to do with it then, completely different, that didn't refer to, that refers to something completely different. That refers to the recalibration of the West. So at this moment you have many processes going on in parallel. You have a leader in Washington who is accelerating these processes. You don't have the process of withdrawal of Americans, so the security of Europe and America leaves a void behind. Nature abhors a vacuum. Someone has to come and then at this moment, at least on the readings I have and the people I've talked to, things are moving like this. To have in the area where you have consolidated democracies, the North, Germany, France, Great Britain, you will have a security system with countries that are democratic, that share the same values and that are able and willing to resist Russia. Very important, they are able and willing to resist in the face of the Russian destabilizing offensive and you have an area also from Europe where and there you have NATO countries, EU countries, which is softer with countries that do not demonstrate either the capacity or the political will to resist Russian aggression. And at this moment, two blocs are forming on the European continent. A European bloc that will integrate, share common values, will federalize that area more strongly. Yes. And a common finance minister and a defense system. I'm not talking about a process that will take place tomorrow, I'm saying a decade. So you're saying that in fact, the other area remains, in which Romania, this is what I tried to explain there. Romania remains, Bulgaria, a softer area, where the attitude towards democracy is not very clear, not very precise. 35 years, they don't look at the Western ones. Guys, what have you done, it's not very good how your democratization turned out and then this will be a softer area where you will have and I think there I said a kind of joint-stock company in which the Russians will have 30% in Romania. Yes, I don't know, it will be a variant of a union with Moldova or it won't be, but this under Russian tutelage, right? Suddenly you have major Russian interests there in Moldova, which will be transferred to Romania, you will have a 30% Russian influence, another 10, 12, 15% German influence, some French influence, more through the economy. This will also happen with Hungary, this will also happen with other countries. This doesn't mean that the Russians will come with tanks, because no, as Surkov rightly said, we don't have so many tanks to send to Romania. Then what do they send? We send our people who are already on the ground. What will this mean? This means that from the point of view of the narratives that dominate the public debate, there will be narratives heavily influenced by Russians, if not directly pro-Russian, anti-Western, right? They will work through the church, through various institutions. The Russians know how to do it very well, but we see part of it now. That is, it's not happening these days. Dear Cătălin Striblea, I don't watch TV anymore. I really don't know anymore. Okay. Sorry. If you ask me, I can tell you what's happening in Russia, in Moldova, in Ukraine, but we'll get everywhere. Wait a minute. But at this moment, Arman Goșu, this makes us the weak link. Well, wait, it's not just us here. There are many weak links. There are many weak links in the West. But the West no longer has time to work with us, to say, man, another generation will pass, the results that Romania has obtained after 2007 are rather weak, mediocre, let's say. The West no longer has any experience in democratization, in fighting corruption. You see the same people, the same people with elections where there is no alternation in power. What the hell are you doing with the secret services? How many times do you meet now with what's going on with you, with this thing? What did it do, man? And what do you tell them about the Georgescu case, for example? There was a Russian hand. How does the Romanian state claim it? Well, you have to give evidence for that. I tell them, the Romanian state says this, others say otherwise. From where? You have to have evidence, man. But your readings show you your experience, the fact that you look at the mode of action. Of course, at one point it was taken over, but otherwise you don't have the PNL that financed Georgescu's campaign to clip Simion's wings, to see a Russian mode of action in the Romanian elections at one point. Yes. The Russians, but they are not primarily in Romania, they are primarily in Romania. No more... Yes, yes, yes. They are primarily in Romania. That is, you can't imagine. At one point someone escapes from control. Most likely a man of the system. You couldn't get to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as head, not director general at the economic thing if you weren't a boy of a boy. Don't you remember. This man was there for several years. You can't imagine that someone from the street comes. George, look, Cătălin Striblea. Don't you want to? There were seven directors from AB at that time. How do you imagine that this man was screwed into some... There are many not spots or episodes from his past that suggest I know he denies it with everyone, denies categorically, I didn't eat garlic. Our mouths don't smell. Let's do it like this. So Russia wants to increase its influence here. You said over here, a package of 30% of shares. That is, I don't know. That's the example I gave. To have pro-Russian parties. You have a party of professionals from the services, you already have some who go with good. This in the conditions in which Russia, we don't know either, this will continue to be worked on. I try to imagine, that is, it will bring a battle for the rest of our lives here. Not a battle, ready to surrender. No. Well, but they came over you. What? Who to surrender? We surrendered. Romania, that's it. What else? How do you mean Romania is done? Well, it's done. It entered their zone of... How do you imagine? Well, you can't get it out anymore. They came in. So there is no alternative to the gray zone. The alternative to the gray zone was that European nucleus with democratic countries, solid countries, countries with institutions, countries with responsible politicians, which you don't have. You don't have institutions, you don't have political leadership. Imagine, I don't know who else is prime minister of Romania, imagine him in Brussels talking to... So Romania has already come under Russian influence. Yes. It is ready, it is ripe for such a thing. Why are you surprised? This is happening before your eyes for 20 years. Now you see, now someone is, you are the first one to tell me that this has already happened, that it has happened. We are heading towards this, but in many ways. I understand. Good. And this is what kind of? It's not very good news. Sure, but you get used to it and you get used to it. We were under communism before, weren't we? We've been through that before. It won't be. That's what I'm saying, it won't be. It will be a kind of joint-stock company. That's what I'm saying, and it's kind of like now. You will have radio stations that promote Russian narratives. You will have televisions that promote... Try to do in Finland or Estonia or Germany what some people do here promoting Russian, anti-Ukrainian things. Well, the next day the prosecution from the services... So here these things already work. The Russians don't have to come. That is, at one point in this stock exchange they will have more power, after which they will have less power. It will be something, something very lukewarm, very foggy, very... Well, is Romania still a European country to the extent that it has been a European country in recent years? Aha. So it hasn't been more. Good, there will be a difference. The difference will be that you won't be able to mimic, right? Because it will not be this hard core, not of the true West that wants to resist Russia, so imagine the European Union or the West, concentric circles, let's say. Yes. 1, 2, 3. You have a hard core. I mentioned the Nordic countries, Poland, those who want to resist Russia, those who assume clear European values, right? Those who have a democracy, not this electoral democracy, where you vote every four years, but let's do what electoral democracy can say after all, and Russia says it has it, right? How so, man, and here we vote crazily, and in Ceaușescu's time, people voted in Romania, right? That means democracy, right? To have alternation in power, to have serious parties, to have... Good, and you have the rest, right? with corrupt regimes, with Orbán and at one point that part of the West will say: Guys, you've eaten our money for nothing, you're corrupt, you're penetrated by Russia, you're riddled. We can no longer afford to... then we do this and I don't know, we remain in a kind of Schengen, semi-Schengen with you, with I don't know exactly what models will be followed, it depends a lot on Trump. It depends a lot on Germany. I expect to see that he will come, he will go and that he has some ideas, something. Yes. And it depends a lot on the results of elections that will take place in the coming months. Surprised. Poland will matter a lot. Romania will matter extremely much. Turkey's evolution will matter a lot because if Poland, Romania, Turkey are weak, the Americans will negotiate with Russia, with Putin, any crap, without any of these countries being able to oppose, to say no. Which of our candidates is the most suitable in this situation? To defend us best from Russia on this stock exchange? It's hard for me to believe. No, no, no, I don't know them very well, but anyway, not candidates who are openly pro-Russian. At the same time you are in a crisis at this moment because you do not have candidates who are truly democratic. Everyone has... See, this is what it means when a political scene is played, right? Which is controlled by other people, other institutions. You don't have a true democracy. You are now paying for the way you raped democracy in the last, let's say, 10 years. Are you afraid of any of them? Of course I am. Well, there are people who clearly assume a Russian agenda here. What? Who? Well, Mr. Simion. Let's not name names. No. Yes. Well, I'm not asking. So in this area there is a Russian agenda. Okay. Good. At the same time you think that a guy like this to be in big politics, he is also controlled. He is a man of the system at the same time. I don't think there are surprises at this moment. Okay, let's end this chapter. What should the future president of Romania do? Well, to avoid this kind of gray periphery destiny, you need to have very good relations with the main actors. In Berlin, in Paris. It's an illusion that you have something in Washington. In Washington it doesn't matter. It's good to have it there, to manage to communicate, to understand some things. But I think that should be done at this moment. If the Americans leave, you can't stop them. Try Poland stopping them. Poland having more advantages, Romania also has a super advantage. It has a not very important geographical position. Well, the base at Mihail Kogălniceanu. You think that opens the way to the Middle East, it opens the way to the Near East, it opens the way to Crimea. You think that if these discussions and rumors that appear in the press are confirmed, Crimea will remain legally, from a legal point of view, de facto or de jure in the possession of Russia. You, Romania, are in danger, in great danger. I don't buy very much the theories of Western analysts who say that Estonia is in danger, that look, in a few hours it will be occupied. No, no, no. Russia here, here at the Sea, what kind of danger? That is, are you thinking about war? Including, including, including war. That is, you pass, Romanian, but you have to have someone to wage this war with. Romania at this moment is not really for war. That is, how? Wait, I don't understand here. You told me earlier very simply. Wait, so to wage war, right? Russia has to have someone to fight with. Yes. Who does Russia fight with here? There's also a group of Americans. Well, and NATO is NATO is NATO here. It's NATO. They, NATO, 1000 Americans there. There are 200 more at Deveselu. 300 at Câmpia Turzii, 1800. Well, and... Well, what do they take tomorrow? Do you think they protect you? Come on, man. But do you think Russia... Wait a minute. Do you think Russia will attack? Maybe it will attack this area? And I don't think it needs to attack it. Ah, well, that's what I'm saying. There's no need to attack it. To attack it, someone has to defend it. Does it seem to you that someone here is preparing to defend against Russians? Good. And then the danger you call, that's what I want people to understand, what kind of danger are you thinking about? On this big stock exchange. That is, Russia's shares pass 50%. I don't know. No. Things are negotiated, they can change. Tomorrow if you have a, you have a collapse in Moscow. The dynamics of the evolution of this European space have completely changed. Good. But let's do a little bit. So Crimea can remain Russian and it will probably remain Russian. Yes. Yes. And then it will be complicated because you are close to Crimea. What can they do wrong from there, from Crimea? That is, what can they do? To control the mouths of the Danube, to stop your gas exploitation? What can they do? Well, you think Crimea is a kind of bastion. Yes. An arsenal there, impossible to penetrate. It's the A2AD system, yes, air exclusion. You have planes, they have SU35 planes, the latest fifth generation, they have a fleet. They are bringing their fleet back to Sevastopol. They have Kinzhals on that fleet. Well, to stop the Kinzhal you need the Patriot, right? To stop the S4 you need Patriot. Yes. For the rest, let's say that other air defense systems would also help you. At this moment you have so many people, you should have a system of, I don't know, shooting down drones. At this moment I would call the Ukrainian instructors here, I would pay big money, just to prepare my troops. Okay, so there, the future of the war, look at the short videos because they are on the internet, show how they go, how they hit. Incredible what's happening and I saw, I went a few times, I was in Kiev, yes? And I saw soldiers, so let's continue. Under what conditions could Russia launch an attack on this area? What shouldn't suit it? It has no reason to. That's what I'm saying. Why shouldn't it suit it? Well, so to launch it, something shouldn't suit it. It's something that doesn't suit it. That's what I'm asking. Is Moldova preparing to resist? Romania is not preparing to resist. No. So well, how do we make some, well, I don't think the real war that Russia wants to wage, if it gets to wage it, will be... I think they will enter here like in cheese, they will control them and this area suits them exactly what they want to do and what they wanted. That is, to live, because they can't give you money, right? They are not Brussels, to live on Western money, but according to Russian rules. They are very happy. They would have accepted this for Ukraine as well. The problem is that Ukraine wanted more. Do you understand? Let's see what the end or peace would look like in their area. So Ukraine, you say, controlled, influenced by Russia. That's what they would like. Yes. That is, a pro-Russian government. That's a must. A pro-Russian government. If not in this phase, then in the next one anyway. Well, look, the fact that he sent Beseda to Riyadh for talks is not, this is an argument, it is very strong evidence that Putin has not given up on controlling Ukraine, that is, Kiev, to have a government, a pro-Russian government. Tell me about this Mr. Beseda. Ah, good. His presence there is important. He appeared. I didn't expect it either. Carasin, Grigori Carasin appeared. And this was a deputy foreign minister who is specifically from this area. Now, why is it important? He is a general colonel. There are not a few photos with the KGB, as if it were the PSD. Ah, not from the FSB. He is FSB. He was the head of service five. He served in the FSB. Good, now the FSB, it must be said after the KGB was disbanded, the first, the first direction for espionage was separated. Good. The FSB initially FSK, then FSB, the equivalent of our SRI. The largest service there. There was a time for a year and Putin, who only had a place in the corner, was the head of this service, appointed by Yeltsin. Yes. Good. Now, Beseda worked with Putin.

Serghei Beseda worked for the presidential administration in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004. In 2002, Putin began an operation to consolidate the FSB among other Russian secret services, because there were more. Yes. He took FAPSI, which is the equivalent of Romania's STS, and it was swallowed by the FSB. They counted the votes in elections, electronic espionage, all that was there. Good. And then in 2002, they created a department that did espionage where? In foreign countries. Well, wait a minute, that's not okay. So, the FSB simply acts within the territory of the federation through laws. It's a counterintelligence service. At the same time, in 2002, by creating this service, you practically consolidated the FSB's position. So, not the Sever, which is espionage, not the GRU, which is military espionage, but the FSB, the 5th service of the FSB, but with limited responsibilities, working in the former Soviet republics. They focused mainly on the Baltic countries initially, on Moldova, on Ukraine, but they don't work like a secret service. They look for information, do analyses, sources, recruit. No, they are active. They have politicians whom they prepare, they put them into big politics so as not to influence the decision. That is, they put their own people in, it's atypical. Westerners don't do this type of... they are also responsible for Romania, because we are... No, no, no, no, no, no. The countries from the 5th Service are the former Soviet republics. Yes, yes, yes. Beseda leaves the presidential administration in 2004 and becomes the head of this structure within the FSB. This structure dealt with Ukraine. Beseda means conversation in Russian. Even if it's not his real name, Serghei Beseda is Serghei Conversation. It would translate into Romanian as Besedă. Yes. So. This man was decisive when Putin decided to invade Ukraine. Why? Because he controlled the entire network in Ukraine; he controlled all the information about Ukraine that reached the upper echelons where decisions were made. So, he controlled all the relevant information on the basis of which Putin made decisions regarding Ukraine. He was convinced that Ukraine was weak, that it was a mess, and that it was a matter of a few days for the Russians to occupy it. However, he is in office. That is, he's not in office. No, no, no, no, no, no. A few days after it became clear that it was a total failure and that his analysis was zero, he disappeared, and then some Russian investigative journalists who fled to London published an article. They have very good information from the services, and according to the article, according to their information, Beseda was placed under house arrest, after which he was imprisoned in Lefortovo. Lefortovo is the FSB prison in the center of Moscow. And for me, a year ago, not in 2003, until 2023, the information appeared that Beseda is the advisor to Bortnikov, the head of the FSB, and said: "Hey, Beseda is still alive. Not only is he alive, but he's become an advisor to the head of the FSB, right? As if here with us, right? The head of the SRI, yes, the advisor to General M... So he retired him from there and at 70 years old appointed him advisor to Bortnikov of the FSB. To see him a month ago, because that's why this whole history with Beseda came back to my memory, to see him about a month ago together with Karasin sent to negotiations in Riyadh with the Americans. You realize, I couldn't find out a bigger shock, because both... not that they are hardliners, they are the hardest line. Their appointment, their sending there is the strongest signal that Putin is transmitting that he will not... that he holds on to his positions. What positions does that mean? Control of Ukraine, whether you recognize it or not, territories... No, dad, I want control of Ukraine. Did you mention another name? Karasin. Grigori Karasin. Yes. 75 years old, senator in the Federation Council. Former deputy... who also dealt with Moldova and Romania, and whom I personally knew. At the time, his speeches... you didn't quite understand what it was about. And at the BBC, at that time, I was with a Pole who was also from the world, and I told him that he should listen better in Russian and understand what Karasin was saying, because we had to get more information about Moldova, get reactions from him about Romania, including about Romania... he was asking, and he was a very tough guy, he was extremely tough and always dissatisfied with the West humiliating us. So they are in this logic with the West humiliating you and that we must take revenge. Let's see the others we haven't talked about, since we've gotten to this. People who are influential near Putin. Wait, I'll say. You mentioned Surkov. Surkov. Yes. Let's talk about the gray eminences of the Kremlin. Exactly. The Magician from the Kremlin, did you read the novel? It was very successful in Romania. Many things are not exactly as they are described there, especially this esoteric part, and he's a very... he's a guy from the GRU, a guy who, yes, who entered in the 90s, did political consulting, was close, incredibly, to Khodorkovsky, and a guy who, if you read him or talk to him, goes crazy. Did you know Dorel Şandor? Yes. He died. Yes, I knew him. Well, I talked a lot with him, a guy like that, also into esotericism, in my mind, the only one I could compare Surkov to in Romania would be... What role does Surkov play alongside Putin? Or had? He had... for him... He was the one who imagined, right? He articulated Putin's ideology from his first term. That sovereign democracy, the idea of sovereign democracy belongs to Surkov. That is, what does sovereign mean? That is, our democracy is not like yours, it's original. We are sovereign. Yes. That is, we are also democrats, but in our own way, and other ideas that formed the ideological basis of Putinism, all are and originate in Surkov, who was responsible for Ukraine. Attention. He played a very important role in the invasion, very important, not important. And he was sidelined around 2016 when Volodin arrived, no earlier than 2000. Volodin was at... now he's at the State Duma, who was more subdued. These are very important. He wasn't the head of the presidential administration, but through ideas, and he controlled quite well, he controlled the press, controlled editorial offices, controlled various people through whom he promoted certain topics in public debate. But the most interesting thing you should know is the current one, Serghei Kiriyenko. Serghei Kiriyenko followed Volodin after 2016. He is the one who tightens the screw even more. Who is this Mr. Kiriyenko? What does he do? Does he have an official position? He has an official position. He is the second most important person in the presidential administration. He is the deputy head of the presidential administration. He is the one who deals with the Ukrainian file. He is the one who deals with the Republic of Moldova file. He is the one who deals with domestic politics. He is the one who sets the Kremlin's reserve of cadres. He is the one who selects people, and quite interesting people brought from abroad with Oxford studies, Sciences Po, solid studies, you should know who the head of the presidential administration is? It doesn't matter. It's not important. Why? No, no, the head... No, he's not a guy who's a bureaucrat. Okay. He's not, he's not in the area of... it's pointless to... So much for Kiriyenko. Serghei Kiriyenko is a very important man. He is the one behind the operation with Shor in Moldova. But of course he has influence on Moldova. I don't know how much influence he has on Romania, but there may be various operations that... Here, however, it would be another area, but I don't rule out that he also plays in this area. Wait, we're getting to... He's a very interesting, very interesting guy. He's a guy who made a career in Komsomol, young. He's 60-something years old. Corrupt, super corrupt. His sons are at the head of businesses, they are millionaires or have hundreds of millions in assets. Yes. But a very interesting mentality. He's very obsequious and fawning. Attention, he was brought to Moscow in '95 by Boris Nemtsov. He was liberal in the first phase. He was brought as head to an enterprise, something to do with energy. Obviously he didn't understand. He didn't understand. He tried some businesses on his own, nothing came of that either. So he's good at staying in positions... I love these capitalists who only know how to make money in the state and large fortunes. Well, at first he was liberal, and in '98 Yeltsin liked him so much that at 35, how old Kiriyenko was in April '98, he made him prime minister, he replaced him... after a dramatic economic crisis. No, all indicators showed that the economy was collapsing, Russian finances were collapsing, and he replaced the versatile and super... not an expert in economics and a man with super connections, super Viktor Chernomyrdin, he replaced him with this trinket, because he's also small and thin like that. Serghei Kiriyenko... to the astonishment of the press and public opinion, a man who didn't last long as prime minister because in August '98 the economic crisis came, the Russian financial system collapsed, the banks, and he resigned, and in his place came Primakov. Pay attention, there are some names here. I recently saw an interview, even on the BBC, with Mr. Karaganov. He's something else. He's an analyst. Yes. University professor, analyst. He's a hardliner. I remember him in the 90s as being on the line. He was one of the few Russian analysts, a system man who spoke English. Superb English. And English at the BBC Feed, I needed reactions, you know? Because we had to find voices. And I took several interviews or several reactions to what was happening in foreign policy from Karaganov. And in '95, '96, '97, you know, I remember him as a balanced man in his reactions, in the statements he made. Of course, he knew he was doing it for the BBC. Of course, he couldn't come and... Mr. Kiselyov. Kiselyov. Kiselyov. We're entering the area of propagandists. Ah, he's from propaganda. These are the heavyweights. Yes. Kiselyov, Solovyov. Tell me first about this Mr. Kiselyov, what role and area he has, because we have many, so both deserve to be discussed together. One is on Rossiya 1, the other has evolved to Pervyi Kanal. They organize propaganda programs, a kind of debate where there are high tables, people stand, 5, 7, 10 people. At one point, in the format, there were also people who stood on the sidelines, applauded, it was like football, and they play an extremely important role because they promote certain topics and promote them with the interpretation of those topics. So, they are very good. Very good. Yes, sir, they are exceptional. I know there was something like that in Romania too. They are exceptional. Like you have in Romania, but these are interesting types. So this is Kiselyov who is on... and Solovyov and Kiselyov are on different televisions. Yes, on different televisions. I have a question. One of them, Solovyov, has a show on... has a show on YouTube, or he has... Solovyov on YouTube. Yes, a lot, a lot. Solovyov is the one who was caught with sanctions and had a huge fortune abroad. Not a villa, a yacht, money, I don't know what, but nothing happened to him. He calmed down. That is, they are still in Putin's grace. They always transmit the messages. To understand Moscow's position, for example, towards Trump, I look at the elections. After which the big problem for me in Romania is that it's very difficult to understand because the European Union blocks access to... and I have to do all sorts of things to be able to watch the show. This Mr. Solovyov, as you call him, seems more known to us for his shows. He's the one who dresses like that in black, in a kind of uniform, in a kind of thing. What does he say, sir, on his shows now? Well, you know, it's very... look, for example, in the last shows last week with the bombing of Sumy. Yes. And I watched to see how they interpret it there. Well, for example, there, obviously good. Now you can say that there are about three categories. One, it's not us. Two, it's you and I don't know what you did. In this case, they said it wasn't the Russians. But the Russians didn't do this. Russians didn't name names. But who could have done it? That is, they said Western forces, all this with actors, with such things, to destroy the negotiations between Washington and Moscow. Excuse me, doesn't it bother them that a day ago when we are speaking, it's Monday, Putin himself admitted that Russia bombed Sumy and Kryvyi Rih. In the case of Sumy, saying... well, but it's normal, at that university I don't know what was happening, a ceremony for decorating some soldiers who had been in... what an aberration. Obviously this didn't happen, but in Russia... they don't penetrate through various channels. No, no, no. It's not all blocked. How can it not be? All the shows I watch on YouTube, which I listen to, podcasts, are blocked in Russia. You need a VPN. Now, the Russians have made a system to circumvent it, but it's very difficult because they block these VPNs from servers. So, and then this could be an elite interested while the vast majority of the population receives what is offered... A grand spectacle. What does Solovyov do? Yes. Wow, you look. It's fabulous. It's fascinating to contradict each other, to beat each other up. Everything is super manipulation, but it catches you. It's a grand spectacle. But explain to me that there's another thing I don't understand. Russia has a lot of time zones, right? That is, it has, I don't know, there are about eight, if not more, I don't know, I don't know how many to say. No. Good. These shows, I guess, are in the evening Moscow time, right? That is, in the European part. The other part of Russia, which is past midnight towards morning, is broadcast at another time. It's like in America. They are broadcast at another time. That is, the next day they will see. So, in Vladivostok, the show is in the morning, at noon and in the evening. Alfare. Okay, I understand. So, there are also local stations that are very important in the provinces. Yes. Local stations take material made at central stations. It's hard to manage a country like this, spread over such a huge area. At the same time, in terms of propaganda, I don't know if anyone is as good as Russia. You think everything is controlled. Kiriyenko controls the topics that come out and... and do you remember during Dâncu's time, when we were saying Dâncu sends by fax to editorial offices, to televisions, who, what subjects, orders there were, and indeed then the subjects... and they had a certain order on television. Well, it's the same now... popular support continues to be massive. Massive, massive. Yes, yes. If you can get in touch with various Russians on... or meet them at airports, like that, wow, you know how super patriotic they are, they are right. The decadent West, and what is happening now in America doesn't seem to give them the right. But if it's falling, why do you see them so much in Western Europe? Falling, falling, but people are falling, falling, but they like the West. At the same time, sir, if an interesting process has happened in the last two or three years, which my feeling is that it has older roots, 2016, 2017, due to sanctions... nannies, that's what I say, nannies are no longer from France, from Germany, they are from China. Their children at home are starting to learn Chinese. There are plans to send their children to school in Shanghai or Beijing. Now this may raise some questions. I don't know how deep this process is and how long it will last. You know that it has happened before in Russia. Russia, the whole history of Russia, if you look, there are cycles. Yes. You don't have victorious cycles. Russia comes back, wins, then it's defeated. Then, being defeated, it must modernize and enters a reformist cycle that lasts several years. The reformist cycle and those reforms are done why? To create an economic base, so that on the basis of this economic base Russia can rebuild its military power to do what? To take revenge. If you go to the history of Russia, from Peter the Great until now, there are only these cycles. Russia is defeated, Peter the Great begins, the first manufacturing in the Orel region... after several years he defeats the Swedes, Charles XII at Poltava. Yes. Then now the last... the Soviet Union collapses. Yeltsin begins some reforms, a type of economy that is built on the exploitation of energy resources, after which Putin comes and on this economic basis of exploiting energy resources builds, rebuilds the Russian military machine. Why? To take revenge, which is what he is trying to do now. And almost you say he succeeded, at least as far as we are concerned, and they claim they have done it, and they would succeed if they were solid. Only our chance is that they are weak. They have... they are giants with feet of clay. Russia is weak. What are its weak points? Russia seems to you to be a country? So you have a country of 140 million people fighting against a country, I don't know if there are 30 million Ukrainians left there. Yes. They are still fighting, still militarizing, still sending to prison, still putting them in... You know that you go to prison there for a like. If you like what they ask, yes, prison is written on you. A 19-year-old girl from St. Petersburg, two days ago was sentenced to two years and eight months in prison for having a piece of paper in her bag on which she had transcribed a poem by Taras Shevchenko. My dear, there's a serious dictatorship there, right? Okay. Okay. This is not a country that can resist, but still, their economy... if the price of oil falls below $60 a barrel for at least six months, it will gasp. The world can be kept, controlled as long as you have this very harsh legislation, but at some point even those desperate people will... and then even Putin is not eternal, just as Stalin was not eternal, just as I don't know Brezhnev was not eternal. They managed to reset their economy these months. Yes. for... for the war, which led to... how to say, even to wage increases. Yes, inflation has calmed down in the last four months, as far as I understand. And this is not a healthy economy, a war economy that apparently works, regulated, but otherwise not. So where do they come from? Well, there is money. Where does the money come from? Well, the money comes from the hundreds of billions of reserves that Russia had accumulated before. Part of it doesn't have access to it because it's in the West. Yes. Then from the sale of oil, from that ghost fleet, the sanctions didn't work. Let's say they didn't work. Well, good. Everyone says the West is crap. Well, I say it's not... according to me, and Germany... and the West have reacted better, much better, some states in this context than expected. I don't know about the ghost fleet. We need to tell you about it. I tell you that not everyone can have access to information all the time or that they don't follow. So, to avoid sanctions related to oil, Russia was not allowed to export oil except in this corridor of money. Yes. Well, and then what did Russia do? Russia loaded it onto some old ships, right? Most of them are not insured. They loaded them with oil and left under various flags. They left in the middle of the sea. In the middle of the sea, other ships came and the loading and unloading operation was done, they shuffled the papers and legalized that oil so it was no longer Russian oil. Obviously, the Russians didn't get $60 or $65 a barrel, but they got enough to... Well, and now Biden in December tightened the screw here too. And if you look at what the Trump administration did, the Trump administration did not relax these sanctions. On the contrary, it maintained them. No, this doesn't appear in the news. But Trump signs an extension. He signs, he signs an extension. So Trump wasn't born yesterday either, so he doesn't understand that he can't... that he has many advantages in his relationship with Putin, but he doesn't. So he can't reach these sanctions. Although... although in Riyadh and now in Paris it was discussed again to lift sanctions. Only American sanctions are not the only sanctions. The US-Russia relationship is very modest economically and commercially. European and Western sanctions hurt Russia much more. Or is America not in a position to dictate to the European West the lifting of sanctions? Uh, no. Ah, let's say one more thing. They did a mobilization, a new mobilization. Are there still men in Russia to fight? That wasn't a real mobilization. There was only one partial mobilization on September 21, 2022. What you see now, what was announced a month ago, those were soldiers or the young people who turn 18. Okay. It's not mobilization, it's called something else. I miss the usual recruitment. No, not even recruitment. So when you go to the army, when we went to the army, it's usual recruitment. Usual recruitment. Yes. It was in the generation that... Good. Now, unlike... so in Russia not everyone is taken to the army. Why? Because they don't need that many people. They took more, they took 1400. The problem is that legally Putin cannot send them to Ukraine. Of course he sent more to Ukraine. So what does he do with them? In Ukraine, wars are not being fought. In Ukraine, the SMO is taking place, right? Special military operation. Yes. Special operation. Yes. Special military operation. You can only send soldiers there who have signed a contract. These recruited children, you put them... you send them to military units to train, but on Russian territory, not on Ukrainian territory. Attention, that is, you can send them to Kursk, because it's Russian territory, where they entered, you can send them to the Belgorod region, where Ukrainians entered again, it's Russian territory to fight. But about 260 died. Just yesterday or the day before yesterday I saw this figure, conscripted soldiers. So we are talking about conscripted soldiers. What do their officers do after they take the oath, after three months? They start putting pressure on these young people to sign contracts with the Ministry of Defense and transform them into mercenaries. And their parents, there have been many cases. They found out that their children were at war and died when they were sought by the town hall to receive... not the money, because they receive... a reward, aid from these children. Reward. So in the end they force them, they bring them to fight, even if legally... they put pressure on them. You think many are children, many for the first time from remote areas of Russia. Some of them declared that they never signed those papers, and there are countless cases where no, but still they cannot oppose, right? That is, if the war machine has been ignited, if it has been ignited, it is difficult to oppose. So it's an infernal machine. Uh, it doesn't need many soldiers. If you look, even a few days ago, again appeared, including with photos, the image... the police entered, masked men entered a nightclub in Moscow, put everyone on the ground and took them to the concentration center, right? Or how to say, from Moscow. Yes. Here they make an impression in Moscow. Yes. Look, even Moscow... at the same time there were several times like that with documented images, with pieces of films in sports clubs and in gyms. They went there, muscles, I don't know what, bang, the police came, took them, took them to... And there are also people who come willingly, I guess... Well, they come for money. How much money? A lot of money. Huge sums of money. So it's a business, it's a terrible business. Imagine you are from a remote area, from Siberia, from the Far East, take the box, there, chances to find a job zero or almost zero. You stay at home, at 20 you start drinking. Your only activity is to go to the garage and play chess, backgammon with the other men there, and drunk... you come home and shout at your wife, if you don't beat her. What's the interest? And they start to... But go yourself, make the money. Well, where? Well, see that the neighbor went to war. The neighbor receives money and bought a stove and bought a TV and bought a car. You think that in Novosibirsk, an academic city in Western Siberia, not educated people, standard, there is a whole neighborhood where the wives and children of mercenary soldiers have moved. So they earned very well. First of all, you earn well. If you sign up, you get a large sum of money, €10,000, €15,000. It's a large sum. Yes, if you tell them here, maybe they will go too. Sum... you think that they go from Kazakhstan, they sign up there. Then you receive a salary during that time. Good. Now, obviously, cannon fodder most of the time, but they also think about the families, well, it's not a big deal... what should they do, sit and drink, play backgammon like that, better not value life? Not really. It's a different culture, you know. Ha! Does this shaman singer work well in propaganda? The machine is a... E

He's a super star there. He's a relatively recent star, I'd say. He's a star who grew tremendously at the beginning of the war, and who gives concerts that can mobilize. You can surpass him, but you realize there's internet control; you don't have access to alternative information. That's very important. Night after night, Soloviov, Kiselyov, these guys brainwash you. They don't just give you doses of propaganda; they explain how wretched the West is, how we must fight, how Westerners are turning us into gays, and you have no idea how this works, but this already comes on an already prepared background. Remember, in the 2018 presidential election campaign, the main campaign clip wasn't for those who hadn't decided to go to the polls and who sleep like that, and one of them dreamed that a man came to bed with him. Remember? It was discussed, it circulated around here. That was the main campaign clip. So their obsession, especially in this area that creates strong emotions, sexual ones, are very present in the public space.

There's also Ms. Simonian. She's with Kiselyov, and perhaps even more important. What does she do? Well, this lady runs RT, she runs Russia Today, inside and outside, and she participates a lot in all the shows. So she's from southern Russia, from Krasnodar, she's Armenian, she has some businesses, but she was sent to America at age 15. That's very interesting to know. For example, they all have American pedigrees. She was sent when she was in high school. She returned after a few years. And she returned very successfully at 25 years old. Tell me, what were you doing at 25? I don't know. I had arrived here in Bucharest to... yes, I was doing some press, some press work. Press, man. She was appointed general director at RT at 25 years old. 25 years old. Okay, she says she's been doing press since she was 18, but I suppose you were also doing press since you were 18. Yes, but nobody made me a director. Yes, yes. So she had an American background, she knows English, she lived in America, she studied in America. Because if you look at... I don't remember at the beginning of our discussion, you asked me about Kirill Dmitriyev. That man left high school, he's from Kyiv, and he finished high school in America, and in America he went to Stanford, Harvard, those big ones. So he speaks English when he returned. Kiselyov and Soloviov were sent by the American embassy in Moscow for training in America. Here, I humbly remark that in the Romanian government, you can count on the fingers of one hand how many citizens speak English, let alone studies in Western countries.

So the people we are facing, these enemies of ours, are good. They are good. They are good. You realize, they lived there. They know the sensitivities of Americans. He lived in a house with Americans. You can understand why this woman, Simonian, is a genius. She coordinates RT's missions for America. Living in America, interacting with the average American, she knows what to deliver there. Tell me something. This guy, Kirill Dmitriyev, lived in America, studied in America, it's fascinating. So my assumption is that I don't think they were sent on a mission by... it wasn't the American embassy in Moscow; they were infiltrated. I think that rather, when they returned from America, they were drawn into the system.

It's time for conclusions. I would like people to remember some things, and I'll take them point by point. Ukraine has resisted this mammoth, even if you say it has feet of clay, with Western help and so on. Can it continue to resist, or will it accept various concessions, territorial losses? Do I know what can happen? The problem isn't territorial loss. The problem is a pro-Russian government. The problem is Ukraine's sovereignty. If Ukraine survives, truly independent and sovereign, that Ukraine will join the West. That Ukraine will modernize, that Ukraine will consolidate, that Ukraine will be part of the West, and that Ukraine will be, from Romania's point of view, the sanitary cordon that a country like Romania desperately needs. So even if it loses territory, okay, let it lose. And if it loses Odessa? No, no, no, no. Odessa is... well, Odessa opens Russia to you, it puts it right under your nose. So that's unacceptable. Well, it doesn't matter for Romania. Many things are unacceptable, but some matter more. Does anyone ask Romania? No, no, no. That's what I'm saying. But will Europe be here? That is, Europe plus America must not accept the loss of Odessa. That's what I said. Well, America, don't you see that neither America nor Europe will be able to accept the loss of Odessa? We don't know. I hope not. I hope not. Yes, Europe, look, I haven't talked about it much. It has a say in all this. It's trying. Don't you see? Now, in the end, the Americans realized that they can't corner the Europeans, and the meeting in Paris is the result of the fact that the Europeans are not involved and are not helping Ukraine, which apparently doesn't please the Americans very much. But this forced the Americans to take Europe into account. It forced Witkov, Rubio, and Klobuchar to come to Paris and go to London tomorrow. So the battle is not lost yet. No, no, no, no, no. But this battle is being fought by Ukraine in the first place. Zelensky will... not by us, not by Europe, not by America. This is the Ukrainians' battle. Will Zelensky agree to hold elections respecting the Ukrainian Constitution and legislation? Of course, yes. Moldova has elections in the fall, if I'm not mistaken. September. Yes, September and October. Parliamentary. Parliamentary elections. Moldova is directly threatened. Yes. That is, Maia Sandu could wake up with a pro-Russian government there. I don't think so. No. No. Or don't exaggerate. I'm not asking. So much support, right? So much support. Look, I went to Chisinau, you know that? Okay, Russian influence is something, but Moldova is much better at combating Russian interference than we are, for example. Sure, maybe they don't have the Ukrainians' expertise in the matter, but their secret services work quite well, their SIS is more than laudable, their police work quite well. And the political parties, except for Shor, who is unpredictable and who at this moment doesn't even know exactly what games he's playing, what money he still has. For the rest, you know, more or less... that is, for a European project, for European integration, I think it's important for Moldova to have more political forces participate in this project, not just those that... I'll skip saying what Romania should do urgently when it has a president, because first of all, Romania needs to have a president, then a government, and then take very seriously making contacts at the top with Berlin, Paris, London, the Poles, work closely with the Poles, and try to stay in this platoon, because the Germans want to keep us in the platoon, the French want to keep us close to them in the platoon. Romania, due to its geographical location, is a very important piece, and it must continue to effectively combat this Russian influence. Do we have the interest, the will, or the need to open something bilateral with the Russians? Us, with the Russians at the moment... I'm asking, I don't understand, I'm asking, I'm curious. There are voices in society that say... but how to say... for that, the Russians also have to want to obtain what? No, you can't obtain anything. It's not an aberration. Fine, if someone really wants it, but someone who doesn't have diplomatic or historical experience doesn't understand how to build a relationship with... it seems to me that it would be stupid on our part at this moment, because it would expose you very much and would automatically push you into [Music] this category of insecure European countries, alongside Hungary, Slovakia. Look, the Slovak prime minister is going to Moscow on May 9th. You realize, you're already on the list of a country that is sanctioned or faces sanctions. Romania is not Hungary, however, or it doesn't need money from Brussels. Look at what's happening in our economy. Think about it, if Brussels delays some money, and if it doesn't delay it, you see that we are leaking from all joints. So Romania is not in a position to do stupid things. In short. A fascinating interview. Armand Goșu. Thank you. Thank you very much. Fascinating. That's our word, or is your audience of the same opinion? Our audience. Follow Armand Goșu on Facebook and wherever you have the opportunity, because yes, it's good to understand the depths of the country which, as you have heard, will be here by our side for the rest of our lives. These guys aren't going anywhere. Well, you never know. No, no, no. Don't let the world scare you, right? You know, Russia, unlike other countries where you can say, yes, sir, something predictable can happen, here are some... In Russia, you can always witness a collapse... That's also the charm of Russia. Now, you realize that I don't necessarily want Russia to... I teach at the university. Now you realize that I can't kill my own subject. I can't. Yes, I know. At the same time, I'm from the generation that naively believed, of course, that Russia could also follow a path of Western development, that it belongs to Western civilization, Western culture, and that Russia could be part of the great West. No, look, we were wrong, and Putin turned Russia's back on the West and its face to China. Thank you very much, Armand Goșu. Thank you, it was a pleasure. Uh, excuse us, a like helps us a lot, and thank you for your support. We hope to bring you such interviews in the future. Have a good day! [Music]