Transcription
You are, I can tell you, very fortunate, uh, to be in this building, uh, with Costis and all that the business school has to offer now, having experienced it in a very different time, at a very different location, um, when we're in a very different place. But, um, as, as you said, the, the common thread is McKinsey, perhaps the, the more important thread that, uh, joins us together.
Sorry, Jane. I'm get out of the flowers. Yes. Better is, uh, I grew up in Australia and Jane thought Australia was so great. She moved there for a bunch of years. So five, five years. So we're in high School years were there. So we're, um, uh, sort of fellow Aussies kind of, yeah. Certainly Commonwealth. I suffered working for James for a number of years at McKinsey, so I could, anyone wants some stories on that later? I'm happy to share them. And I have Jane's performance reviews, so yes. Depending what she tells you, I can, I have evidence. She was always brilliant. I have far worse on you than you have on me. You, you were a brilliant consultant and one of the thought leaders in the whole, uh, global Institute, which was the first, uh, think tank that Jane, uh, worked on with a woman called Deanna Ferrell and, and L O'Brien, I think. Yep. You were the ones who launched it.
So, um, and she joined Citi in 2004. Yep. Became CEO in 2021. Um, so I've watched her as a friend. Uh, we've had dinner together, uh, out of the city where we both, uh, have a place. We, we've been colleagues together, um, on paper. I was her boss in practice. I'm not sure that was true. Uh, and we were competitors together for a couple of years. Uh, so we've had a lot of shared experiences. This is Smith Barney. Smith Barney, absolutely. Yeah. That was, that was the one, right. The, the lesson from this one is be really nice to everybody you work with, because they are going to show up sometime later in your career, Actually. Really true. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. I think, um, but you've, you've done brilliantly. I think you're in arguably the toughest in terms of complexity job, certainly in financial services and maybe in the world. So, um, you know, it's, it's a, a real credit to you what you're doing and change it the way you're changing Citibank.
I want to talk about a little bit about Jane's background. Just a few things. 'cause you can Google a lot of this stuff, but just, it's good to hear it from her a little bit about the transformation she's doing at Citi, and a little bit about her leadership style, and most importantly, give you a chance to ask her some questions, and we'll keep it pretty light and conversational along the way. So, I just want to start, uh, with the background. We're all shaped by experiences in our life and the way we grew up. And you've had, you've had a very interesting background. Just what are a couple of things on the personal side and then on the professional side that have helped shape you such that you can do the kind of job you're doing?
Yeah, So one of them was when age 12, I moved from Scotland to Sydney, Australia. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I think I had. Hmm. Um, and that shift just opened my eyes up to the world and to thinking about new possibilities, different things that you can kind of reinvent yourself. You can do things differently. And that definitely was a, a moment that, um, I made my kids do the same thing when they were age 13, moved them to New York from the uk. So that, that was, that really did give the bit of that confidence that, yeah, you can go and do something completely different. Um, and I ended up moving to Spain after I'd been an analyst at Goldman. Um, didn't speak a word of Spanish, wondered why on earth I'd done that when I was on the plane going there. But I learned a lot in a completely different culture. And it's given me a bit of the, no, you can, you can do this girl, um, feeling behind me.
Another one was, um, and I remember talking to James about it when I was at McKinsey. I worked part-time for five years at McKinsey as a partner, um, when my kids were born. Mm-hmm. And I remember talking to you about it and saying, how do I try and shape that program a bit? And I remember you telling me, you know, just tell every, have the confidence in yourself that you just say and, uh, and, and def define what you need. And then, um, you know, make, make it work for you. Don't, don't be apologetic. Don't try and fit in, say what you need and then, um, you know, work, work from there. So that was very helpful advice. And being part-time enabled me to have, um, a career and be a mom and feel I was able to be a mom. Um, I was around when, you know, with the kids in the mornings or in the evenings, um, when they went to start again to school, I would have longer time during their vacations and kind of shaped it. And I think, um, it made me realize that your life is your career's in decades, and you've gotta measure things that way. And it's very hard in the moment to make what you think is a tough choice on a career. But actually, when you look at it, and I look back on it now and say, yeah, that was, that was a good call to do that. And it didn't help. My clients told me that, um, I was much, um, more empathetic back from maternity leave than, um, when I had, when I had been kind of the geeky analyst who was trying to get the deck perfect. Whereas when you're trying to then balance other things, um, I became much more 80 20 focused and spent more time with clients.
And then I'd say the big shaping one for me in my career would be, um, what I call the Nancy Pelosi moment. And that was, um, Vikram Pandit was a CEO at Citi. He pulled me into his office. We'd been working through the financial crisis together. I was running strategy, which just meant I was selling a lot of things, um, including Smith Barney to James as part of the team. And he called me up and said, I want your development plan, so, um, be in my office the next morning. So I quickly wrote my development plan that night, um, which I do not recommend you do. And he literally just tore it up in front of my face. You remember when she did that behind the president? Um, and, um, and he said, you're thinking about it all wrong, and you've gotta think about your career in terms of not how do you get the job you want, but how do you acquire the skills, the assets and relationships to be successful in the job you want? And I took an entirely different career path thereafter, much more lateral moves, uh, and, and basically filling out the different things, which enabled me to have this seat. Did Vikram, by the way, he's a graduate here too, and Yeah. Has been on that board. Vic can be a fan. Was he, um, and obviously was CEO Did he talk to you about potentially becoming CEO back then? I didn't realize you had that exchange with him. No, he, um, he basically gave me what was to get the C-suite jobs. Okay. What was the grid that the board of directors looks at to assess C-Suite and, um, and, um, senior management candidates? I'd know, I never thought of CEO that that was not in my mind at that point. Hmm. But I began to see a path of saying, okay, I need to think about how do I do. I get built in ability and understanding of investors, of analysts, of activists, of fun, the hill of, um, regulators, of the boards. I began just basically filling in the grid of what were all the, um, different stakeholders that you have to be adept at. Um, I moved into different jobs. I moved from the private bank, um, which was serving billionaires in London, um, to running our mortgage business in St. Louis, Missouri, actually 50 miles outside of St. Louis, Missouri. Because it was moving to running more of a factory business. Um, it was gonna get a lot of attention from the regulators. It was a big turnaround situation. I'd done a small one and a very different set of risks than the risks you manage in the private bank. I was having to learn mortgages, um, securities with it, and everyone thought I had really, really screwed up. I was being sent to St. Louis to do it, but it was perfectly logical to me because it was filling in the grid of different things that would help build the experience. So if I did get a C-suite role or around the, you know, the reporting, the CEO, I would have the, the different assets and experiences that would help me be more useful, successful in the job. It was really, really good advice. Yeah.
No, it's, yeah. I think, um, too often people, and, and I'm sure it happens to you all the time, people come to you and say, sort of, how do I get to be you? Yeah. And it's, it's not the job that you're trying to shape. It's, it's, as you said, it's building the capabilities to deal with very complex situations. Yeah. And I have to say, what a, what a fascinating life, you know? 'cause I've ended up, I've lived in London running a global business from there. I lived in Missouri, um, ran a business there for a couple of years, and I went down to Latin America, um, and ran Latin America. Um, so a scotswoman working for America Bank, running Latin America. Um, and had a, a whole range of, um, different experiences in emerging markets I never imagined. And then here in the States, 'cause the other thing you want is an interesting luck. You know, you, you want to live life fully and your personal and professional life. Um, you know, that's
What, but before I let you escape the personal stuff. Yeah. When you got out of Cambridge, you went to Cambridge, right? Yes. University. Undergrad, before coming, you went to Harvard Business School. Yeah. Uh, we'll forgive you for that. But, um, uh, when you got out of Cambridge, what, what did you, did you have a vision for what you were dealing? Yeah, I, I, I, mean, at that, I, I, Mean, I, you gonna be a ballerina or bank c think I knew what I wanted to do until I was in my mid for, you know, early forties. So it, I was much more, I thought of much more in two year increments. I did two years as an analyst at Goldman out of, um, university and then two years in Spain. Um, and then came to the States. 'cause thought us, I wanted to understand the US machine, um, then was at McKinsey. 'cause in those days there were no women in investment banking. I'd been doing m and a. And I was like, okay, I'd like to have some balance, but I also wanted the strategic. So things were interesting. Um, and then we moved from, so, and I thought, okay, an associate at McKinsey be really interesting. It was, it was fascinating. We had a great mm-hmm. With people. There was a real apprenticeship culture. And then, um, and I got married, um, and we moved to London for my husband's career. Um, was I was at McKinsey then. It was having kids wanted to have kids work through that. And then I decided I wanted to, um, do rather than advise. So I joined, and I liked global firms. So I joined, um, Citi. And it was really only at Citi that I kind of felt like I'd grown up a bit more because, uh, you've got kids, you've got the responsibility. But I kind of got a lot of those different elements of life lived. Um, hmm. And then turned to, um, you know, a more serious career as it were in an institution. And, um, and even there, uh, I just had absolutely fascinating jobs. You know, the global firms, you just, you have such a variety of experiences like you did.
But When, when you become CEO, um, somebody once said, I think it was John Whitehead who was Oh, yes. Co-head of, uh, Goldman before they went public. Yeah. He's a wonderful man. He said, um, with power, some people swell and some people grow. And you've, I, I know you very well and you don't swell with power. You grow with it. Um, but how do you, so how do you stay? What keeps you grounded? What's, what are the things that bring you back to reality? I, I don't, I I, you wake, I wake up every morning feeling the responsibility. Um, and that sense of you better be your best self. That, that turns up because you're in, you're in service of a lot of people, a lot of clients, a lot of our, um, our employees around the world. So that, um, yeah, that one. So it's the humility of recognizing the challenge of what you're trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and a sense of you're on a mission. I, I, I know what I want the firm to look like and to shape it and to try and galvanize the organization behind it. But I got great advice from, um, Peter Henry, who is at Stern Business School head for a while. He is over at Stanford now. And, um, he's on our board. And he told me, he said, two things you've gotta have as a CEO is big ears and thick skin. And, 'cause it's hard to listen. Um, and you've got to really listen more and more. 'cause the more senior you get, the less you actually get told stuff. Um, although I the best I get the download of everything and the ladies' restrooms, um, it's sometimes a little awkward, but you get told truth in there by all of the assistance and others in, so you've gotta, you've gotta find those places where people approach you as a human being. Um, Feels like a competitive, Apparently. That's, that's where, um, but uh, it, it's that listening and really, what is it? People are telling you what it is that's going on and, and getting that listening skills important. And if you aren't grounded, people won't tell you anything. I'll just tell you what they think you want to hear rather than to try and help you do things.
So let, let's, let's talk about that. Who, who do you go to? Who are your truth tellers? Yeah. Out there, apart from Bert? Yeah. My husband. Yeah. Yeah. Well, my two kids, they, they can't quite believe that, um, I'm competent to do anything. Um, I think when you all become parents, you'll discover that. Um, so, well, my kids are pretty good. They, they'll, they'll give feedback on some bits and pieces. Um, then my Head of HR is very good. She is about a decade younger. Um, she was chief of staff to the previous CEO. So she's got a lot of experience. and she will just tell me, she'll tell any of us on the management team. It's get this team saying, stop talking in capitals. You're like, oh God, what have I done? Um, or she'll tell you where you're screwing up on different things. So that's always helpful. Um, I find my Chief of Staff gets deeper down the organization and she finds out what's going on. So I, I've got a young team that works for me, and they're, they're the ones that go out and find out the real truth and tell you, our head of comms is very good. Um, my chairman is very good. Um, we have an independent chair, and he, he's good at giving some feedback. And then I have, um, former city employees who I've worked with in different places. Um, they, they often give a very good frank inside out view. Sometimes they're too frank, aren't they? Former employees? Yeah. Right. Yeah. But you, you've gotta listen to it. And then you, you, you know, you calibrate. You can't be respond, you know, you're not responding to every piece of criticism, just where the resilience comes. You know, you keep, you stick to the plan, you keep the faith, you know what you're doing. Um, but you've gotta be mindful of what some of the dynamics are.
So let's talk about Citi for a minute. Um, March 21. So four year. Four years in a month. Then, um, mission accomplished. What percent so far? Oh, do you ever feel you're anywhere? I remember, I remember at, uh, I think it was at McKinsey, one of the, one of the partners used to always say, you're, you're probably, you're probably maybe 20% qualified for the job when you get it. And about 40% when you leave. And so the mission is probably about the saying, um, I, Well, against what you were you, what I was thinking you've sort of laid out for what you're trying to do. Yeah. So I would say, um, probably about 50% of the way of what I wanted to get done to that. I called it, we were old city. We're a different city, I think of what the new city will be. And I, I think we're over 50% of the way there. It's pretty good, but it will change. But then, then it's the next, the ball moves. Yeah. It's, it what it then moves. 'cause AI's changing things. Other things will be changing things. But I kind of look at it and say, you know, at some point you've gotta assess, is it, is it better to be in someone else's hands at this point? Um, because I do think CEOs are for particular times in a company's history, and you've gotta be pretty realistic about what are you the right person for what time, and at some point you're not going to be. And, you know, having the ability to assess that. And I think, you know, usually if you're honest with yourself, you usually know. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So among your intimate friend group here Yes. Um, what would you share as some things you are proud of you've got done? Yeah. And then a couple of things. You're disappointed. Um, I'm proud of the fact I, that we put enough time into talking to people and getting clarity early on about what the vision I had for the firm was. And then the strategy that we should put in. We were a universal bank, so retail banker, credit card company, uh, onshore wealth business, as well as our whole institutional business in, you know, almost every country that we are operating in. And that was just impossible. Um, and you can't be that global with so many local businesses. So we refocus the bank around saying, we will be the preeminent bank for an institution or individual with cross-border needs. Um, and we, we were a bank in almost a hundred countries, but we do business in 180. So I needed to narrow the focus, get a, um, around a singular client base, and then get the businesses they needed, um, surrounding them, and then get out of everything else. So we got out mm-hmm. And just did it really quickly, including a business that I'd run for five years, um, and say, okay, we're going to exit those. Um, and got that done quite fast. It was a lot of work. Uh, and the businesses wrecking were about 25% of our employee base. So we wanted to sell rather than to wind things down, partly to get shareholder value, but it's also far more humane on the institution. Then we did a big reorganization once we got these local businesses sold. So I could then restructure the firm, uh, around, um, the business lines that we are in, and then flatten the organization a lot. So we took four layers out. That's tough. Um, and then we just, we, last March, I remember our HR head telling me we had 50,000 people with a new boss, um, from the reorganization that we'd done, and the shifting of the structure and the flattening. Um, and so therefore, a lot of the focus, which I hadn't anticipated, how much is really then trying to get everything reconnected again from a social point of view. So the place can operate. Everyone knew how to work together. The toughest stuff is firing people. Um, so choosing the management team. 'cause a lot of the people that helped me get to the first two years done that then enabled us to do the last two years, um, weren't gonna be the right people around the table. Um, so I think you always regret not moving fast enough in retrospect, um, and, you know, move moving on people, but just try that. That's hard. Um, particularly if someone's done a great job and you're saying, you're not what we need for going forward. So I always try and use the how would I want to be treated if I was in that person's seat? And usually it's, I just wanna be told straight and don't, you know, don't try and pad this out. Just tell me straight and then help me. Um, so that's what I try and do.
I I would give you, that's hard. Yeah. I'd also give you credit. I think you've rebuilt the team Yeah. A lot. And honestly, you've kept as big as C is, and it's, it's sort of the world's, it really is the world's biggest bank, um, in terms of reach and range of businesses. You've kept it out of the news. I mean, it's been relatively, relatively, um, trouble free Yeah. Being that complicated, which is cultural. It's, you know, there's, there's been some sort of cultural shift Yeah. Inside there, which I think you, you know, it's obviously early, but you take some credit for that. I mean, You g you galvanize people when you've gotta go through a lot of change. You galvanize people on the destination. Like, what, where is it you're going to? And the same when you're asking people to change, you don't tell them they need to change. You tell 'em about what it is you need for the future and then help them get there. But if they're not, explain to them that what we need is is something different. Yeah. But it's, it's like, um, golf, you, you love golf. My young, my youngest son is a really good golfer. And, you know, he taught me, you succeed off your strengths. You don't succeed off fixing, um, what, you know, you, you've gotta make sure you don't derail yourself, but you will succeed off your strengths. So understand what they are and build around that. And I think that's what we've tried to galvanize a lot of the organization is what are you great at? And how do you, how do you really, um, use that to your strengths?
So what's one thing that, that you haven't got done that you wanted to? Oh, The regulatory side. Yeah. The regulatory side's been really tough. Um, some of that can be hard because it's very focused around of not necessarily the material financial risks you face, but sort of more of the crossing the T's. And I, and I always used to say I left Europe to come to the States because of the entrepreneurship here. And I, I do think a lot of our client industries are saying it got overregulated and started missing the point America's about growth. It's about competitiveness. It's about innovation. It is extraordinary, the capabilities the US has. Um, with all the terminal going on, the economic advantages of the US will still be utterly differentiating. Um, and, um, you know, that, that's one of the pieces I think that's important. You know, we, I don't know if you have this number in your head, but, uh, in my last year as CEO, we submitted our annual Yeah. Uh, capital plan too. Yeah. Uh, our plan CA plan for the, uh, federal Reserve, and it was 83,000 pages long. Yeah. Ours was 127,000 this year. And Yeah. And no, I mean, it's just insane stuff. 30 Banks submit these plans. Yeah. And in six weeks there's somehow analyzed, um, evaluated and adjudicated on in six weeks. It's, it's complete nuts. Yeah. So I think there's some of these things you've gotta start when you work with the regulators, it's trying to lay out what it is you think is more important for them to focus on. And again, if you don't have a clarity of a vision of, you know, what's important, where things are, and lay that out, if you just complain to him about, well, it's too bureaucratic, it's whatever. I had a conversation today with one of ours where I'm like, look, we've got 400 people working on something backward looking in fraud. Can I please put 350 of them in protecting fraud for the future and just wind it back to 50 that are working on this? Um, and, you know, we made a pretty compelling case as to look, we'll all look pretty stupid if we've done this backward looking stuff. As opposed to protecting people where fraud is going. Um, you know, you, you, you have to learn how to get people off things they're entrenched into and gal galvanize them on a vision on the future.
Well, I've, I've got a few more questions then I wanna open it up. Yeah. Um, because there's so much, uh, so much stuff we could talk about Just one. Th this world is a little crazy Yeah. Right now, um, you think Yeah. And, and I'm retired or was sort of retired, so it's, it's, it's easier for me to deal with, but, you know, you're skilled. Hey, hey, how you deal? How you hanging there? Yeah. It's that whole noise signal thing. I, I, I, I really thought about how do you lead This was probably about, you know, a month and a half ago saying, okay, how does the best half, how does the best self turn up? How do I lead? And it was one of the ones of, um, conveying calm, um, giving clarity and conviction to people as what, you know, this is what you need to focus on. Um, some reassurance around values, right. That the North stars are unchanged. Um, and, um, As well, making sure that, you know, you're, you're not, things are aligned to your values when they're not. Is this working? Yeah, there we are. It's better being straight about what are some of the changes we had to make and why. Um, but most of the stuff is just keep, keep people calm and focused and still believe in the mission and the direction they're going. Um, and, and just try and be that, um, steady voice for the organization. Um, and just bring the emotion down. Um, I got so angry with a group of, um, senators the other day I met with, 'cause they were so, um, caught up in being outraged. And I, it's just like, guys, do your job. And, you know, just, just, you know, get down, take some deep breaths and do your job. And that was a very helpful moment for me to say, okay, you know, do your job. Be the best person. Turn up. You're not gonna get it. All right. Be straight and just keep, keep driving forward.
Let me ask you a couple of questions on leadership. Um, uh, firstly Can't, 'cause I might ask 'em to you 'cause he's one of the, when in a phone a friend, I often, James is one of the ones a phoning a friend. You're nice. Um, No, no. You do, you give me good advice. Advice is worth what you pay for. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, um, Oh, I paid for it. Yes. So, um, now you're getting me all confused. Good. Uh, That's the other thing is used humor to not people off there. Yeah. It, it can work too. Um, some CEOs, particularly in our industry, speak a lot publicly. Uh, I tried very hard to have the brand of the company speak and we sort of be underneath it, but there are times when we were just talking about it before, when you have to speak up Yeah. There are things, and then there are a lot of things you want to speak up as a citizen or as a human being. Yeah. But you can't because every time you open your mouth, you are the Citi Group ceo, EO speaking. Yeah. You're not Jane Fraser. Yeah. Citizen. How do you, how do you manage that? What's your sort of north star of when, when to when to open your mouth and when not to Yeah. I got a lot of advice on this. Yeah. Because it's, it's not something that comes easily and naturally, certainly to, I mean, a lot of things don't come easily and naturally. Um, and on this one, um, I just, I grounded on okay, you're the CEO of a global company. Um, I'm not a politician. Um, I've gotta run the institution independent of the politics and, you know, 'cause we are in Venezuela, we are in hon you know, we are, we are in Honduras, we're in all, you know, all over Africa. So actually a lot of the things that go on there beyond rule of law are far worse than things that have been happening here. So there's also, it does ground you, um, from that, from experiences elsewhere. Um, and so I look at where does it affect our people? Um, where's it affecting our client? Where's it affecting our franchise? We had, um, we had, um, 11 families in Parkville at the high school in near Fort Lauderdale where there were the shootings. Um, we had a number of employees who, um, had fatalities in their family in Vegas when there was a big shooting there. We had, there was a series of eight of them. Mm-hmm. And we had all of our families, you know, and, and one employee killed. But it was all the, a lot of it was family members. So this really meant a lot to our, um, the families of our, and our employees that we, um, advocated for responsible firearm use and, and practices. Um, and that was something that we spoke up on at the time. And it, it was important to, but there are other ones where we won't because it's not impactful for actually the stakeholders of the company. It's, but it's hard. It's, it's a pretty, it's a hard road to navigate. You've Gotta be, When things swing or like, You gotta be consistent. I mean, I, I re I forget like you, I used to get many, many emails from employees. Why aren't you speak on this issue? And every now and then I'd just call up the employee. Yeah. And they'd say, well, I'd say it's James, go, I talked to you. And they'd say, well, why are you calling? I'd said, you sent me an email. I didn't expect you to read it. Yeah. You know, it's a response. But the question I'd ask them is, you are saying, I should speak up on this issue in this way. What makes you think I'm on your side of the issue? Yeah. And then they say, well, maybe you shouldn't speak up. I say, good answer. Yeah. So let's not let our personal views come into it. But I'm sure it's really hard. And, and you're in a, you're in a, I mean, we, we are a very global company, but Citigroup is a different kind of global, global company. Yeah. It's in a very, it's got so many retail presences, so you're touching hundreds of millions of people, not, you know. Yeah. Although the consumer side's gone now, so we've sold that. That's true. But we, but we're still, it, you know, we've been in China 124 years now in India. The same in Japan. You most of the Business' been In a hundred years. So there, there's also a, um, you, you are almost local, um, and rather than a, an American bank. Um,
So let me ask you about, that's 'cause of all those countries. I know you travel a lot. Yeah, yeah. Um, I dunno how you look so well for somebody who travels as much as you do And hair dye. Yeah. Hair dye every twice a week. Right. Every two weeks. I've clearly lost that. That I refused, lost that battle. Um, how, how do you, how do you deal with the stress? I mean, just, you come home at night, what's your favorite drink, your favorite TV show, you know, what do you do to just chill? I, I, um, I do, I, what I find is I really en I enjoy the client side of the business a lot. And so going and talking and getting out around the world and meeting different clients, um, and it is, it's an incredible privilege. I mean, the job, the people you meet, um, uh, I think of Africa last year in Cairo, in Lagos. Um, it was down in, uh, Joburg, um, and a number of other Nairobi, a number of other countries around. And you just, you learn so much, um, and different cultures, different perspectives, what's going on, where the challenge is You have a favorite African country Really into Botswana. Oh yeah. Um, but, um, so you, you are aware of the privilege that you're in mm-hmm. And that you're learning things and having experiences you never would've imagined neither of us would have. Um, and that definitely, and, and then the other piece is, you know, if you've got a job to do, right, there's a mission here. There's a, there's a sense of it. There's a lot of people depending on you. Um, and if I'm stressed out, that's really unhelpful for everyone.
Okay, I'm gonna open it up. Uh, How do you do it? Yeah. How do I deal with stress? Yeah. How did you deal with it? You sleep, you had an ability to sleep well all the time. What's that? You always used to be able to fall asleep all the time. Yeah. I I, Maybe it's just when I was presenting. So I actually, I, it is a true story. I sit in my office, I'd shut the door, and as soon as you shut your door, people think big things are going on. Right. So it's a very powerful move. And what I do, I either watch the Hawkes chasing the pigeons around Manhattan, or, um, my favorite TV shows in the middle of the day were Housewives of Atlanta, uh, versus Housewives of la I mean, they're both very distinctive cultures. But basically anything to stop your mind for a bit. And, you know, if it's exercise that's even better or meditation, but something that Yeah. Just stops everybody coming into your head. Yeah. Because I found it exhausting. I mean, and but to do it for a long time, you've gotta be able to create space. Yeah. And you need time. 'cause you get a lot of information coming, so you actually need a bit of time to process it. It's endless. Yeah. There's nothing quite, like, not listening to the news for a day because then it's a day old, so it's no longer valuable. Mm-hmm. And you saved all of that time. Yeah. But it's tough. I mean, all, any, any leadership job is, is really, really tough. That's, and not everybody is up for that, you know? Yeah. And you are always, you, you never even, you never feel you're doing a great job. Most of, you know, you can have a good day or something good or happen on various pieces, but there's always more you can do. Never done. There's always other things. So you just that It, it's never finished. I mean, the, the metaphor I used was, um, when I was a little kid, I went to the ocean down where I grew up in Australia. And I said to my, asked my dad why the waves never stop. And he started explaining, you know, Luna title flows and things. And, and now I sort of, in my mind I saw work as the waves constantly coming at me. And in my mind I meant sort of physically turned my back to it. And once you can't see something, it stops Yeah. In your mind. So that was sort of the, the way it tried to control. But it's hard.
But let me, let me turn it open, uh, here too. And if you're sitting in the middle, I might be able to see you. 'cause there are spotlights in my face here. But lady here first. Yeah. By the way, we have the New York Fire Department in the building. Apparently there's a fire engine over there. I think somebody opened a door they shouldn't have opened upstairs. That's the ringing the ring sun. Yeah. Hi, I'm Jemima, a fellow Aussie. Um, I was wondering what is a mistake that you have made at some point in your career and what did you learn from it? So many of them, um, I, it took me a long time to feel com to actually get outta the comfort of just having done all them, done all the work, done all the analysis, but someone else would be the one doing the presenting and other pieces. And I remember Lowell putting me aside one time and say, your job is to influence the room and if you don't talk, you don't influence the room. And then as soon as he said, you're not doing your job well, um, there was a file lit underneath me as opposed to what I felt was being self-promoting by talking and other, other things like that. So I, I've had to learn a lot how not to raise my hand like this, but like this, the things are important. And even to this day, as many times, um, I, I'm often the only woman in, in a, in a room. It was just until last month was the second, the top 50 banks. There was only, there's only one woman the last three years. So finally there's one, one more of us, um, GJA, also a McKinsey alumni. Um, and you just, you realize that you've got this thing of you have to, you have to lean in, you have to talk up, you have to, you know, have that influence. So it doesn't sound like a mistake per se, but it was because it, it's one where too often if you, if you're not, um, learning these new skill sets, getting out of your comfort zone and other things, um, then you, uh, I, I really regret to too long for me to lean in. Yeah.
Over just behind you here. Hey, thank you so much for being here with us. Um, I wanted to ask, what's one advice that you give to your kids while they build and navigate their careers? Yeah, I mean, there, there are a couple of different pieces. Um, one of them is, I, I always tell them you can have it all, but you're not gonna have it all at the same time. So you're gonna have different phases in your life. You're probably gonna have several different careers in your life. 'cause um, most of you guys will be working for much of your life. Um, and some of those careers will be more successful than others, um, you know, at different points. And so that's okay. So I'm usually telling them just to chill a bit. 'cause it feels like there's too many pressures on everyone. Um, look, I, you know, I worked part-time for five years and I made CEO of Citi. Um, so you don't have to be in such a rush for everything. Um, and just enjoy, enjoy each phase of your life and each phase of your career. Um, and don't wish it to be the next one or the one that you're just worrying. Just make the most of the time. But don't try and get the expectations down. You, you do not have to be superman, superwoman. Um, so yes, you can have it all, but it will be spread over time and enjoy each moment as much as you can. And if you're really unhappy, do something about it. Yeah. They don't listen to me though. They're 20, they're three and 25. So, um, you know, as a parent, you get fired as a parent, you hope to be hired as a part-time consultant.
I would just add to the mistake question and tying it to what conversations. I've also got two kids. Um, we're, and it's mainly to young people who have come to work for our over the years, come to work for us. If you are constantly got your head up for the next thing, I mean, there's a real tension between showing you've got game and as Jane said, leaning in, being prepared to speak up in meetings, learning, but asking your bosses, you know, when you get your annual review, well, what would I have to do in order to get the next job all the time? And my advice is trust the system. We'll find you. If you've got talent, we'll find you. If you're constantly asking, it's sort of distasteful. And, you know, careers are made by doing what you're paid to do really well. And then anybody who's doing something really well, you want to give 'em more, not give 'em less. So just trust the system a little bit. And if the system ultimately disappoints you, then you're either in the wrong place or it's the wrong, you know, it's the wrong company, or there's something wrong. So then you've gotta act differently.
I take something over this side, gentlemen, up there in the blue. I think. Thank You so much for your time. Um, my, my question actually directs to both of you. Um, what is the leadership style that you see within each other that you think can be greatly complimentary to your leadership principle? Thank you. Yeah. That can be, That can be complimentary to your PR leadership principle. Well, I'll go first. Jane is extremely likable and she immediately makes people feel comfortable. And, uh, once people are comfortable, they're more open with you. So I think she, um, she's obviously, you know, intelligent and thoughtful and strategic and all the sort of traditional co qualities. But a lot of people when they enter a room or in front of strangers, um, don't realize you're, you're dealing, you're not just dealing with business people. You're dealing with other human beings. And I think that ability to get people from the get go to be willing to listen, engage with you at its essence gets down to some sort of likability, empathy. And I mean, I know a lot of what I learned from James, um, I remember at McKinsey, um, you know, he has a, an assurance and confidence, but not arrogance. Um, and I think that's, um, because you, you want to follow people who have a conviction about what they're doing. There's a confidence about them, but no arrogance. There's an openness, a curiosity. Um, and I certainly learned from James that, um, you, you've gotta stand up for yourself. You put a point of view on the table. If something's wrong, you call it out in a way that's not offensive, um, isn't, um, being an a*****e. But, um, you know, you always, you someone always stands the ground for different things like that. And it was very helpful for me, building more confidence. Um, We should go into business together after this Actually be fun. It would be fun. Um,
Up here lady. Yeah. Just to the right of the light bulb. Yes. Hi. Thank you so much for coming and sharing your wisdom with us. Um, my question is, how have you navigated goals that may have not come to fruition? And how do you know when to pivot, be patient and or learn to admit that something hasn't panned out? Yeah, there was a, there was a job I, um, I had really wanted, um, and had worked hard for, had been given. And then it got rescinded because situation changed. And, um, I was, I was really, I was surprised myself. I was really upset, um, around it. And I had Micah a couple of, uh, couple of weeks of just being a bit down and I was like, okay, just, you know, get it outta your system and then what are you gonna do about it? And I think there's that piece of never be a victim that becomes very important of just take, take control back of your destiny and what are you gonna do about it. And you know, cities had all sorts of different issues where things have gone, you know, um, wrong and you've just like, oh God. And, and you're, you, you let yourself, I found, I just let myself have the, the 10 minutes of wallowing and go, okay, that's done. What am what are we gonna do about it? And moving forward that way. And that, that's definitely helps. But you, you, you do often have to give yourself a give yourself a moment or a day or a week or whatever it is, but then get on with it afterwards. Move forward. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we all, everybody has disappointments, right? Oh yes, you have. And you have screw ups and Yeah. And, um, you know, I, I was demoted by the bus I had, uh, at Merrill Lynch and eventually left for a smaller job. And everybody said, but it's a smaller job. And I said, yeah, but I feel better doing something. I feel good about doing. So at some point, it's not about the size of the job or the responsibility, it's about being true to yourself. And, but you're all gonna have disappointment. Sorry to be a spoiler, but, uh, it's called life. Yeah. And it's hard there. See, it is alsos things you beat, you also tend, I'm sure you, you are all gonna be these overachievers and do amazing things, but there's gonna be times that you feel you've let people down. I can remember I had one earnings call and I didn't do a great job in, in it. And oh God, I was just, I was really, I was like, God dammit, why? You know, I was so, I just beat up on myself and I'm like, well that's not helping anybody. Mm. Um, and so yeah, next day I stopped beating up
on myself after I'd apologized, and it was like, okay, get on with running the company. So that's the other thing you've gotta learn. 'cause often you're your own worst enemy.
Sure. Um, and other people fine, but you feel, you know, God, I've let people down, and that's the worst feeling.
Gentlemen, back here. Oh, you got the microphone now, you gotta grab it. Yes, it's on me. Uh, thank you both for your time this evening. So it, to me at least, it seems that one of the key roles as a chief executive is managing relationships with increasingly external stakeholders to your institution. And as the chief executive of a multinational financial institution, those external constituents become heads of state, policymakers. I would love to hear a little bit about how you define success in those relationships.
Ooh, we'll go first. I'm gonna think about that one. Um, I guess trust, you know, I've, I, I used to do something, I think I told Jane about this, but it, it wasn't with country heads, right? You, you rarely, when you meet a country head, maybe Citigroup was different, but when we met country heads, it was largely ceremonial. Everything was prescriptive beforehand. Everything was agreed beforehand. And you're going to sort of show good faith or announce that you're opening a new office or something. We did a big thing in Paris recently. I met Macron and you, you know, in fact, we sat next to 'em at, at dinner one night together. Um, so they're largely ceremonial. But I tried before anything that hit the press that related to Morgan Stanley that I thought was like, not good. Stuff hits the press all the time. That's not good. But then the stuff that's not good, you know, kind of really big, I would call, um, Jay Powell. I call the head of the New York Fed. I call the head of the SEC. I call the head of the OCC and the head of the, um, uh, the FDIC. So five regulators the night before. And I'd say, tomorrow morning, you're gonna read this in the press. Your team, you will draw your own conclusions. I'm gonna give you my view for what it's worth. It's either really big deal and we're doing something about it. It's not a big deal. The journalist is vindictive, trust me on this, whatever. And by acknowledging when it was a big problem and owning that in advance, build a lot of goodwill when we actually have problems. 'cause they say, you know what? I think James will get on it and he'll fix it. So it's, again, it gets back to you're dealing with human beings. Yeah. You have to build trust with the person, not just title to title. Um, that's the best advice.
Um, the other, another thing I would just add on a slightly different flavor. Our, our old, um, chairman Dick Parsons had just passed away. Amazing man. Um, and one of his, I have a list of Parsons written down, one of them he had is never check a generous impulse. Um, so when someone who you're working with or you know, may not always like, um, but a stakeholder, um, and something tough has happened for them, call 'em up. Um, and that, that one that never checking the generous impulse for someone, um, if, if they've had something tough is, I think it's again, that human being piece of it. But you then it's a, it's really changes if they be, if it's authentic, it really changes the relationship you have with someone. They remember.
The gentleman who we skipped in the back have to come back and then I'll come back to the lady here in the third row. Thank you so much for sharing today. Uh, my question is curious, just back to your young age, maybe, um, the, uh, you remember That far back, James? Sorry, maybe just Take this on the road really. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So just back to the day before you become the partner, maybe just associate or the Yeah, just the young guy. So what do you think the most important thought your mind can motivate you more and to, uh, quickly development in the future? Yeah. Just give us some otherwise, thank you. Yeah. Most important thing to develop, oh yeah, sorry. Alright. Just to the most important thoughts can, uh, keep myself or keep us to development and to, uh, become a real leader in the future? Just become the young age. Yeah.
Um, I think, uh, we generally under index, if you want to be in a leadership role, by definition you're leading other people. You're creating a followership. Yeah. No point leading if nobody's following you. And for that, um, people will follow generally, uh, three reasons combined. One is you've given them a vision of where you're going. Two is you can articulate it in a way that they understand. And three is they can feel that you actually believe it rather than just saying it. So you're authentic. So it's a combination and, and the piece, we're either authentic or we're not. So that sort of, that's based on who you are as a person. Having a vision is a little bit of training and strategic, you know, uh, work and so on. But the piece that I think gets under, uh, exercised is communication. Yeah. The importance of speaking in a way that everybody can understand you because what they can understand, they'll follow up. People don't understand at the first obstacle, they won't follow. So I would say to young people, I took a course here when I was at business school in 1985. Um, I dunno if we have it now, but it's communications course and we're videotaped and it's awful, right? 'cause you've all got ticks and you don't, you know, you pull your hair or you do something and, but you get by doing it. Once you get better by doing it five times, you get a lot better and so on. Yeah. So just learning to be more effective communicators rather than, I mean, you gotta do the casework, you gotta do the analytics, you gotta do all the stuff you do, but don't, don't figure, forget that part of the program. Yeah. And Jane is obviously a great communicator and it helps, it helps a lot. Right? English accent that helps in America that you're much smarter than You're, that's, that's a winner. Australian used to be a winner, but Yeah. That's good. Good advice.
Uh, lady here. Yeah. Yeah. You went, Oh, do you have the microphone? Oh, you have it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We All right. We'll take, I think we've got time for maybe two or three more questions and we'll wrap up. Okay. Lady here I can just ask Yeah. Yell it out. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you both so much. I think, Yeah, so I, um, so in running a global bank how to sort prioritize, you've got some things which are acro, um, some, some things as a CEO that hit your desk, it's the plane that is either in pieces on the ground or is about 10 feet off the ground because no one else could solve the problem. And you're the only one that can, and it's usually at the worst, at the worst point. So you always have to have some capacity to be up to whatever the crisis might be. Um, and that you've gotta put your time on. I, I, I think every quarter about what are the things that I need to achieve this quarter, um, and kind of what's the north star for the quarter. And I'll tell my team that. So either, you know, I wanna focus in this area, I wanna focus on a couple of different things and make sure they really get bedded down or I've got the time to think about it. And then we just make sure that the time's carved out to do it. 'cause you can get very caught up in all the activity and all the things you have to do every day and not actually achieve the big things that need to get done as to lead the bank forward rather than just do the day job as opposed to advance. Um, but it's, it can be hard. Yeah.
Lady here, Thank you so much. Um, quick question first. You mentioned Yes, your boss International, you might need the microphone in the back rows. You're about to compliment our accent, so I just thought we should do it again. Oh, Thank you so much. So regarding your bridge accent, we all hear a lot of internationals. Yeah. You both are internationals. Do you think it was a competitive edge for you being international or was it a bit more challenging at certain times? And a second quick question is, um, what would you want us to remember from this evening? Like one thing we are, some of us are graduating soon or in two weeks actually. What is something you would want us to take with us into the professional world? Thank you so much.
Yeah. Um, I, I I think it's, rather than just international, it's a, it's a global mindset. Um, you know, it's not that there's only one way of doing things that is right, um, or that will be successful. And I, I do think for me, having a breadth of experiences in different, um, countries has helped me enormously. Um, because I'm, I'm, I don't tend to be quite so much thinking in a particular box. I'm much more open to other ideas, um, and different ways of doing things. And I think that's been really, really helpful. And it's just in innate on it. And, you know, immigrants, we tend to work harder to, so I think, um, it's, I mean, being an outsider is an advantage and disadvantage. Sometimes you, you know, when people, I still don't know what's going on in baseball and, you know, and I, you kind of, you're left out and you know, on certain levels you just, you're not, you didn't grow up in the society. And whether the accent is a good accent or a bad accent or so that quickly disappears, right? It's about you as a person and, and, and are you, do you understand and embrace the culture here? If you're constantly coming as a, as a foreigner and saying, telling all the Americans what they're doing wrong, that doesn't work, right? You've, you've gotta bring goodness rather than just pull down the badness of, so I, I think it's more, I think Jane's exactly right. It's having a global mindset. I lived in Tokyo for a while. I lived in Hong Kong. I lived in Madrid for a while. Um, I spent a lot of time in Germany, and this was before I became a CEO. So I had a very, all cultures to me were interesting, and I think if you approach that with the world that way, then you can get along with anybody. I look at my management team. I have two Pakistanis, three Indian, um, I have, um, one other Brit and couple of Americans and a Mexican. I, the one thing that unites us is pretty well, the management team all speaks bad English. Um, so cultural element to it. But, um, ev everyone's got that mindset to it, and I think that that's the piece rather than where you're from what you're doing. That's differentiating.
I'll take one last, uh, question here. Um, let's see. Uh, in the back there with the glasses, the gentlemen lady there, sorry. Yep. Thank you. So lucky. Um, thank you so much for being here. I'm curious to know, um, kind of take a step back. Apart from, you know, running this multinational company, you have many roles in life. Would you be able to name three most important things to you in life? Uh, and, and a small tiny follow up question. What is your, uh, phone log, screen picture? Just Curious, what's my, Your phone screen picture?
Uh, So, um, the three most important things in my life, um, are, um, Gordon, Cameron, and Burt, my husband and my two sons. Um, so they, yeah, you, I always think one of the things for you all, just if I think of what's a takeaway for you, your personal life in your professional life, you know, one will be important at some point in your career, other ones others, but just make sure you're happy. Um, you know, and happiness can be being, learning in a job, succeeding in a job, doing other things. But, um, so for me, it's, my family's the most important thing. They're not happy. It's not, you know, nothing's great. Um, you're only as happy as your least happy child. Um, and then, um, but, but that, um, that piece of, you know, be, if you're happy, you're likely to be more successful. You know, you're gonna be better at the job you're doing, you're going to be more infectious to other people. And so if something's not right, fix it and have the courage to do that. And what's on your screenshot on your Phone? My screenshot is, um, my son, um, his graduation photograph. Um, oh, we a bit of fun. One with his best friend where they're, um, uh, yeah, that one because they, they were just, they were really happy that day. So I, it always makes me smile because they're goofing around and, and, uh, yeah, it was just, it was a really happy day. He was at Duke. Unfortunately, he never got into Columbia.
Um, I would, I would, uh, my screenshot is, uh, a photo of my partner in a, with a baseball cap on, uh, standing on the beach. Um, and, uh, she's got the sun behind her. It's just a great photo. Oh, yeah. Um, the, just to finish on the, that, I would say, um, the people who I've seen, uh, happiest at work are the people who are doing things that inside them they want to do. Yeah. And a lot of the times, particularly when we start, we have to do things to sort of get going and so on. But at some point you've gotta say what's true to you and your values. Is it the prestige of the job? Is it the money? Is it the location? Sort of what's driving you? And if the substance of the work, you don't get up in the morning and think this kind of interesting to figure out if you work on a marketing team, figure out a new promotion campaign, new advertising campaign. If you're in sales, figuring out, you know, a a new way of doing things. And that's how you keep growing and Yeah. And stay invested in your career. Um, so if it, if it isn't working, I started off as a lawyer for four years and I just wasn't, it just wasn't that interesting for me. And so I left. And, you know, you've gotta be, be prepared to make choices, to find the things that are motivating you, not what you're supposed to or other say you is good to do. Yeah. So with that, I, I think That sort reinventing yourself, right? Yeah. To have the courage, you'll be able to reinvent yourself many times. Yeah. But listen, this has been, uh, a great honor to host Jane here. Um, she is, I think, doing a phenomenal job. I described the Citigroup job several years ago when somebody asked me, what's the hardest job, bank job in the world? I said, it's to run Citigroup. And, um, I think she's Thanks James. Oh, But, but that, no, no pressure. But that makes it the most interesting job It does, because you've got enormous challenges to meet. And I think in four years, you know, in that second year when you started doing a lot of the restructuring and selling off, and you did sell the retail stuff, um, you, you really transformed it. So, you know, I hope that you'll be doing, and I expect you to be doing it for a decade, and you'll, you know, having that kind of length of time to fundamentally change a global institution is what it takes. And you, you're, you know, I think you've, you've done a phenomenal job. So I wanna thank Jane, uh, for joining us here at Columbia Business School. Thank you.