Lesson 2- the zodiac as a pattern of unfolding human development

Hey everybody, good to see ya. Can everybody hear me?

I can hear you. Okay, hello. Good to see ya.

Me too. All right, so audio must be working, at least on my end. We'll let a few other people in here, so we'll just begin in just a minute here. Let's give everybody a chance to come in.

Okay, so last week we talked about the signs as universal needs, the primary motivating factor behind astrology, behind archetypal behavior. So the needs that are common to all of us. And this lesson is focusing on the evolutionary unfoldment of human personality. So the, the stages of growth that we all go through, what it is to grow up, what it is to have, um, relationships, what it is to learn in certain phases and stages of our life. We have a very common pattern of development among all humans, and the zodiac mirrors that. It shows us that.

I would get so caught up in the way I would get caught up. Oops, yeah, I need a meal. I don't know. Hold on. Figure it out. Yeah, hold on a second. How do you mute it? Uh, at the top, there should be a, um, little icon there, a little microphone. There we go. She got it.

So the signs show a certain type of development, a certain stage of development, and we are concerned with, uh, with with the things of that sign during that stage of life. So understanding the signs as a pattern of human development and a pattern of psychological development is really important when it comes to understanding how these certain archetypes, how the signs fit in when it comes to what stage of, um, character development, or what is it that a certain person is wrestling with. So it helps us to understand the specific, the specifics of chart interpretation, especially when we're looking at aspects, because we're going to be looking at specifically what stage of growth, what stage of evolution, what human need is impeded or helped or needing to be addressed. And understanding the nuances of our development through the signs gives us a really good tool to be able to do that.

So the unfoldment of the human personality, that begins at Aries. That first sign. We talked a bit about this in the last lesson about how Aries represents that infant stage of life. When we just pop out, we, uh, assert ourselves, we come out kicking and screaming and go through that process of everything being very egocentric. Everything is very much about us. We really haven't developed an idea of, um, of other. We haven't, uh, really developed an idea about ourself. We're just existing. We are just asserting our needs. And so we're very much concerned about our survival, and we come out and we are announcing ourselves. It's a very bold sign. So Aries is that stage of life from birth to about 18 months old. We are developing our first motor skills at this stage of life. And we associate Aries with athletes and people that have very quick impulses that they act on and, um, a real instinctual nature. Um, you know, people who can respond to their reflexes very, very well. And that's what we're very much developing is our reflexes and our ability to use our body and to, uh, to crawl, to move, to walk, to, to have, uh, the ability to take up space in the world. So we're developing our earliest motor skills during that stage of life. And we are not concerned with proprieties at that stage of life either. We are not aware of what it is to be polite or fit in or to ask please or thank you. We're just simply crying out for our need to be met. So when we look at the sign of Aries, it's always important to understand where that impulsivity comes from, where that need to act on our, uh, on our instinct, it comes from. It's really that universal human need to announce ourselves and and to get to take up some amount of space in the world. So there's a, um, a separateness that's developing at this stage of life. It's leading into the next stage of human development, which is the Taurus stage of human development. So this is about at about 18 months, we start to develop some amount of object permanence. We start to really, uh, deal with attachments, the realization that things can still exist even if they aren't seen. So we're becoming more concrete at that stage of life, that stage of development. There's a, um, [Music] a mine stage that we all go through when we're very young. We don't want to share. We want to keep and we, we want to possess and don't really have any ideas about otherwise. So both that Aries stage of human development and also that Taurus stage of human development have something selfish about them. We are, um, learning about who we are as an individual and starting to absorb the kinds of attention that build self-esteem. So in the Taurus stage of development, we are receiving attention that leaves a definitive impression on us because Taurus, Venus, the second house, these are motivations, actions, and areas of life that are very much about how we will support ourselves, what we will charge for our services, how we value ourselves, what we in turn value outside of ourselves. And so much of that has to do with the kind of face time, the attention, and the quality of the attention that we had during that early phase of growth. So when it comes to humans, it's very interesting that some kind of regard, even if it's negative, seems to be better or healthier than no regard. So neglect seems to be worse than negative attention. So we need to have some kind of feedback. And based on that feedback, and it all we know is the attention that we are getting from our parents and our caregivers and people around us who love us, the people who are, you know, having, they're leaving an impression on us. We don't have anything to compare that to. We don't have any other ideas about ourselves. So what is, what we're seeing in the faces of others, what's being told to us, how we're being treated, that is what we build the rest of our relationships on. So Taurus, second house, very important to understand when it comes to the stability of our earnings, the stability of our self-esteem, because we will, as human beings, only accept what we feel we deserve. We will find a way to push away or sabotage what it is that we feel we do not deserve. So really looking at what is contained within the second house of a birth chart, that's going to give us a lot of clues as to what are the kinds of activities that are affecting that area of life for, for good or bad. The second house in Taurus, Taurus in particular, it's going to have a lot to do with our happiness. The archetype of Venus is very much about pleasure and about enjoyment and about happiness. And, um, the quality of our life is very much found in Taurus and in that second house. Taurus is the quality of things. So when we look at values, let's look at brands. We have something that's very, very high quality, it tends to cost more. If something's very low quality, it tends to cost less. So if something is, uh, it's special to us, something that we do well, our talents are very much found within the second house. And within Taurus, Venus is very much how we will do our art. So Venus as the action of Taurus, it's very much important to look at what kind of art are we frustrated with? Is it easy for us? Is it, you know, it's our type of giving, our offering. So how we feel about ourselves, how we regard ourselves, that is so much what is developed at that early stage of life.

Does anybody have any questions so far about Aries or Taurus, or observations or input?

Kenya, yeah, I was just thinking about, um, that notion of before we really can get to an understanding independently of who we are or what we're worth, we're looking to others to mirror that to us. And I was thinking of that quote, um, the mother's, the precursor to the mirror is the mother's face. Um, and I think even to that, because sometimes we can have a parent that is giving us love or that's instilling, you know, that we're worthy or valuable in us, but what we might observe or witness is that maybe they upset, they accept less than, or they overextend themselves, or they don't love themselves very well. And because again, we're understanding that under, like, we're mirroring what we understand about ourselves and our own value through what we see, especially by those caregivers and those that we're close to, you can still come, you can still walk away with these negative understandings of what value and self-worth is. And then, you know, you can have situations where the parents like, but I gave you plenty of love and attention and all of this, but there's still, it's even deeper than that, right? But their own psychology came through anyway, right? That's what we look at. Yeah. And so, yeah, there is, you know, we have the best of intentions as parents, but if we go into parenting with our own stuff really still on the front burner, that's going to show through. And and our children do tend to pick that up. And I think that's just how we as children kind of pick up the baton. And it's up to us in our own development to, you know, either further our parents' weirdness or understand it and bring it to a close. And we, you know, it, it's, it's unintentional so much as parents, you know, we, we even may be going through something that's very difficult at the time that we have an infant or a toddler, and it's going to show on our face. And that child could internalize that. Absolutely. And that's something that, you know, as a parent, we would never get up in the morning and think, you know, I'm going to leave, you know, an impression of grief on my child today. And we absolutely do not do that. We're living our lives and doing the best we can. But children are like a sponge at this type of their life, and they don't know what is and what isn't about them. So it is very important to do our best. And when we have children at that age, to try to provide a happy, positive, stable environment. But life is going to happen.

I have a question. Maria, can you, can you repeat, um, like the, the age of the, the stage of development for Taurus again?

So it's birth to about 18 months for Aries, and then we go into 18 months to getting into about five years old for Taurus.

I have a five-year-old and you guys are nailing it because he is such a sponge. And he has, it's just crazy his personality and stuff. And just kind of just this, like, I'm sorry, my name is Maria. I was driving to Montana last weekend, otherwise I would have introduced myself. Um, yeah, I was so upset I couldn't like participate because I was driving, but I was listening and then I got caught off at like two hours in. But yeah, no, you guys are nailing it. He just turned five this past November, and it's just, it's just funny, um, how much, and he's, we're both Cancer risings, and his, um, moon is in his first house, so he's very emotional.

I hear that. Yeah. But yeah, I just wanted to say hi. And yeah, no, this is, this is really cool to be here.

Oh, I'm glad you could make it. Um, I also remember that stage. I have two children that, yes, they, um, yes, they are, they are impressionable little sponges at that point in their life. So yes, the quality of the attention is what we internalize at that phase of development.

And that leads us into the why stage of Gemini. So this is when we start to go to school, start to experience what is in the immediacy of our environment, but still is close to home. So Gemini, and these stages overlap somewhat. Gemini, we're starting to learn, we're starting to gather information, we're starting to ask why. We are refining our language skills, and we have pretty much a full vocabulary at this point. And this is a stage from about five to nine years old. So we are, um, still acquiring a lot of our idea about the world at this point in our life. And we're starting to have relationships with, you know, schoolmates and kids in the neighborhood and starting to hear things that don't just come from home. So we're exploring what it is to live within a network. And we are having involvement with cousins, with family members who aren't immediate, our siblings. It's, um, it's a very, very busy time for a lot of children. We are able to go out to play at this point in the neighborhood and have play dates. So socializing is very important, and having our little friends at that point is very important.

Grab my team here. Does anybody remember being that old? Yes, that when we're starting to develop our memories at that, that early, early stage. One of my earliest memories is being in kindergarten and hiding under the desk. Actually, I didn't want to come out, and they finally sent me home. So I had to go to kindergarten, the sequel. But that was good.

I think sometimes we can have some sensitivity issues when we have planets in the 12th house. I had, um, my first day of kindergarten, my dad had to trick me into going to kindergarten. He said, we're going to Chuck E. Cheese. And then I walked up to the school and I looked behind me and I saw my dad running away, and the teacher like brought me inside. And I've ever since then, I've always been, Dad.

Yeah, that's a serious bait and switch. Absolutely. Oh my goodness. That's something we do when we want to take the dog to the vet. I mean, psych them out that way. That's pretty interesting. I think it's funny that you like learn to walk in Aries, but you learn how to ride a bike and like that Gemini stage of life. I remember my mom just put me on a bike, no training wheels, in a parking lot, just pushed, like, figure it out. You know?

So did you, did you figure it out? Yeah, I mean, I stayed upright, but then I ran into one of those like parking barrier things, and I was so mad. She thought it was hilarious though.

So, well, I guess maybe she figured if there wasn't any blood, it was okay. Yeah, we are learning to ride a bike. We're learning to, uh, keep our balance. There's, um, more skills that we're developing at that point in our life. Gemini is the stage of life when we are learning to read. We're learning to use our hands. When children are, you know, learning to write, their chubby little hands don't actually hold the pencil very well. And a lot of writing is developing hand strength and the ability to move the instrument. And so we're developing our dexterity at that point in our life and learning, learning, learning and acquiring. So we're more in, as an emotional sponge in the Taurus stage of things, and more of a mental sponge in the Gemini phase of life.

Travis, I think it's really funny that like child psychologists see children learning how to lie, like learning that they can lie and not just tell the truth, as like a major developmental step. And I feel like it's just so apropos that that probably takes place like during that Gemini stage.

Yes, yes, yes. I remember the day that I learned to lie. I remember that day because I, I think, oh, that's what it was. I had eaten some, some wheat bread out of the package. We were at our house in Colorado Springs. I ate some wheat bread out of the package and I hid downstairs because I must have known something was wrong. And my mom came and found me and she said, did you get into that wheat bread? And I said, no, no, no, no. And she said, okay. And she went away. And I remember thinking, this is the greatest power anyone could ever have. No one has ever thought of this before. I don't know what this is, but I have discovered something amazing. And I lied. I think the next day I tried to use it. She figured me out real quick. And I was like, okay, that's called lying, and it's not good. But I do remember that, that realization. And yeah, that is a huge, uh, discovery at that point in our life. Absolutely.

Anybody else have any observations about that Gemini phase of growth?

I'm just going to comment on Travis's comment. I think it's also really interesting that the ninth house, I kind of associate with truth and morals and everything. So it's fun that we kind of learn how to lie in the third idea.

Yeah, deception. Yes, absolutely. Our deception begins. Um, well, it's the twins, that's that's the, the sign of it. There's two sides, the duality to things. We're starting to live more within a dualistic world at that point and start to separate things. And, uh, that's part of what it is to to grow up.

So a quick question about the, about the third house. Is that also where maybe confusion starts of like, what's going on in the, like, things not making sense?

Yeah, absolutely. That's where we want to make sense. That's why we're asking why, why, why, why? Because when things don't make sense, that becomes like the driving will. Do anything to get that meaning. And we actually see that in the ninth house, the consequence of the third. So we are developing our common sense in the Gemini stage. It's the sense that we, we absorb from our common alliances, the things in our everyday environment. So the sense that's common to us within, say, our town, the, the place that the area that we more immediately live in. So the common sense, say, in a small town in the Midwest would be different from the common sense that we would have maybe in Manhattan. A little bit different there.

Travis, are you saying like Gemini is that stage where you kind of take on culture, like local culture?

Yes, because we have the consequence to that in Sagittarius, which is bigger culture. That's where we go exploring for culture. We go, um, hopefully outside of our own culture, or we become completely dogmatic about it because there's two sides. So yeah, we are learning from the people who are immediately around us. We don't know any more than that. And I remember being at the park once when my, my son was still in the Taurus stage, and my, he was going around and he just kept saying, like, Mommy, Daddy, Mommy, Daddy. Everything is relating everything to Mom and Dad. I remember my, my brother said, wow, it's like you and Tom are his entire world. And that is true at that point. We just do not know more than our immediate caregivers. We're starting to know more in Gemini. We're starting to know what our siblings say, and what our neighbors say, and what our, um, our little schoolmates say. But we don't know anything beyond that yet. We haven't read anything prolific at that point in our life. We're just gathering information. So we are like little data sponges. And whatever the data is, whatever it happens to be, that's a lot of the basis for the morality and for the meaning that we give to things in Sagittarius. So we just take in the raw data, and that becomes a real building block for who we become. So it's important to, uh, try to put our children, if they're in that phase of life, in an environment where they are, you know, receiving good, helpful information, because they are indiscriminate when it comes to what's coming in and what they're filing away.

Any other observations?

I'm just thinking about myself as like, I have a Gemini South Node in the sixth house. So like, there was so much information happening early on for me in terms of me like taking it in and just being able to replicate it and duplicate it like very easily, very quickly. I'm just thinking about that five years old to nine years old stage in my life and constant reading. It was like, okay, well, can you read this? Yes. Can you read this? Yes. It's just like moving me along like constantly, constantly in like different phases. When I was like in second grade, I was six. I was already young for a second grader, and they tried to put me in fourth grade. And my mom was like, absolutely not. And so she just took school also changed schools a lot. Yeah, there was a lot of emotion and just coming at me at that really, that phase of my life. And when I was nine was the first time I got to a school and stayed at a school in my life. So my Gemini, very Gemini functional.

Yeah, yeah. I was brought up in the military and I have the South Node and Gemini. I have a lot of the same experience. Yeah, I went to like 12 different schools by the time I said ninth grade. Yeah, we moved a lot.

So yeah, then we getting more into the turning in phase of Cancer. This is the wonder years that we come into where we're quieter. We are more developing our, uh, the basis for our emotional life. So things slow down a bit at this phase. We are able to take care of ourselves. We're able to go to the bathroom on our own every time. We're able to dress ourselves and, uh, police ourselves. You don't have to worry about children in the, uh, the wonder years phase of life.

What ages would this be for Gemini and Cancer again?

So ages nine to 13 for Cancer. For Cancer, yeah. For Gemini, age five through nine. And then we're going into Cancer, the, the wonder years, nine through 13. So junior high. That makes a lot of sense.

Well, and and between years, high as well. I just keep thinking about the show, The Wonder Years, when you say that. It's funny. Yeah, it was a good one. I grew up with that one.

So we are quieter at this phase of our life. We don't require as much attention. Often times our parents are starting to go about their own lives again because they're not so worried about us getting under the sink and drinking poison or running into the front yard. And we are more able to take care of ourselves. So our parents start to drift a little bit back into their own lives or into their own routine. And so there's a, an introversion that's occurring at this stage. Children generally are not, unless they have a defiant personality, uh, they're generally not just requiring a lot of us. And so there's a, um, [Music] a solidifying of who we are emotionally at that time in our life. And we tend to, you know, still be close to home. A lot of us are still, you know, very, very attached to home at that point in our life. And, um, [Music] is still requiring a parenting, but not being so overt about it.

So does anybody remember that stage of life?

Yeah, I mean, that's the first stage of like maturity, I feel like. You know, you're first kind of entering puberty and like things are changing. Like you're still young, but you get that taste of maturity of like, what the rest of your life is gonna be like. And I just, I remember it just being a very emotionally raw period because, you know, things just didn't, it's like you're entering a new world. You're taking your first steps into the adult world. You're entering as a child, though. So there's a certain profundity to it that I think is lost like later on.

Very, very good observation. I remember my daughter, yeah, talking a lot at that stage of her life, you know, I, I think I want to be a kid forever, but I know that I'm going to have to start growing. And she had a lot of Cancer, Cancer sun, so there's a lot of, you know, that identification with that, that stage of life for those people.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting. I think, um, when I was, I think I always thought of myself as being really introverted and, you know, not really, um, social. But I remember in the first and second grade, I was kind of like a Chris Farley. Like I would, I loved everyone and I loved making jokes with everyone and I was very, like, kind of outgoing. And then, then during those years, I think that's where it started where I just kind of kind of went in internally and I just didn't really like talking to people. It was very weird.

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of a more awkward phase for us, I think. Um, and children are generally easier to teach and handle at that stage in life as well, if you're a grade school teacher. And, um, yeah, I remember spending a lot of time listening to music in my room or playing with my Barbies alone at that time. And, um, yeah, we're just kind of, uh, developing the, like, the, the springboard for who we're going to start to become. So we're very malleable still, at that stage of life. We can still, um, be salvaged if, if that's what needs to happen. But, um, we are starting to become concrete the closer and closer we get to those tween years.

Alex, um, oh, I was just going to say, I think I would also add that the Cancer stage is probably the first time that children start taking care of other children. I know for myself, I started being left alone to take care of my brother probably around that age. So it kind of, I think that relates to the kind of.

Absolutely. Absolute Cancer. And I think to Jones' comment, I'm not sure if I pronounce that right, but I feel like the Cancer stage is probably also, well, maybe the Gemini stage as well, but it's kind of where we start to refine our senses of humor a little bit more.

Oh, that's interesting. Well, that's leading us into the Leo stage of things. There is a bit of an overlap, a bit of a cuspiness to these stages of growth because we don't just get to 13 and, you know, now we're in Leo. They, we kind of, and for some, it can be sooner or later. We can be earlier or later bloomers than other people. But it is the same general timeframe that we're all dealing with there.

Um, Kenya, did you have something?

I have kind of a question and then I think maybe an observation to back off of that. So when we're talking about the development of, you know, the natal wheel, can we look to our own natal wheel to see, okay, first house, these things unfolded for me this age?

Yeah, it's gonna be specific to the houses. Yes. I think like, so nine through 13 is where I like basically decided who I was going to be for like the next 20 years of my life. And I feel like I'm in that phase now where I'm questioning all of the things that I established at Cancer age because, um, I have Moon in the fourth and it opposes my 10th house stellium. So I like very like decided at that age, oh, I'm gonna be a musician. And then spent the next like 20 years doing it. And now I'm at Saturn return and I'm thinking like, hey, no, do I still want it?

Like that. You'll have your werewolf moment, right? But yeah, that, yeah, we do see, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's a, that's a good observation that, uh, sounds like that stage of life because you have the Moon there, it was critical.

Yes, absolutely. Anybody else have anything to add?

I will say that I think that that was the age where I felt most compelled to fit in. Like I became suddenly just like intensely aware of otherness and I wanted to kind of smooth that over and I learned to camouflage myself then. Like I feel like it's a mission at that age to learn how to fit in. And that's like so Cancer, it's belonging. And then I think that I guess transitioning to Leo, you know, once I got past the age of 13 and get into high school and stuff like that, I changed my wardrobe, I grew my hair out, I was like a rocker guy. And like you kind of like learned to stand out.

You know? Absolutely. Yes, yes. We do not want to be embarrassed or to really be noticed too much in that Cancer phase. And, um, you know, we're usually wearing looser clothing. If we're a girl, we don't want to bring a lot of attention. But then we do get into the Leo stage of things where we are teenagers and we're developing our identity. So this is when we're developing our individuality. We start to pull away. So about age 13 to 18 is when we're becoming our creation of our self. So we typically try on several hats when we are in that Leo stage of life. We will, um, you know, go through our spooky poet phase, our vegetarian phase, our bisexual phase. We'll have all these different phases and just trying all these different ideas about ourselves. And there's a, there's a playing with the idea of ourselves at that point that we're doing. We're, we're deciding what it is that we're gonna show up as. A lot of that has to do with the kind of attention, the kind of applause, what it is that we think is going to make us distinct. So we're becoming very distinct. We want to be indistinct in Cancer. We're going to be very distinct to the point where we, we actually have applause and attention and eyes on us in that sign of Leo. So we start to assert ourselves, we cut our hair, we get piercings, we do whatever we can do to define ourselves as an individual. And oftentimes, you know, if we have very individualistic traits in our birth charts, the more pressure that is put on us to conform or to be traditional, the more we're going to develop that idea of us as different. And the more how difficult we can be. So, um, some children, we have to parent them loosely because they will go the other direction. We put any pressure on them, and you'll end up with exactly what you didn't want. So, um, all children are different too. They all require a different type of parenting. They're, you know, because you can have one child that, you know, you look at them the wrong way and they burst into tears. Then you can have another child, and you, you tell them over and over and over and that, you know, a very strong voice not to do something, and they just don't even hear you. So you have to apply different ways of parenting to different children. And I think we're really, really discovering that as parents in the Leo phase, when we're parenting children, that what one, what works for one is not going to work for another. So there's that individuality that's just blossoming, and it's, it's uncontrollable at that point in our life.

So anybody have any comments about Leo?

It is a fun stage. Travis.

So I spent a couple years working as a substitute teacher and I preferred high school just because I, I loved the energy of the kids at that age. Like they're not jaded, you know what I mean? Like they're just, there's something that is just purely expressive about them. There is a lot of ego at that time and a lack of self-consciousness, and it's very fun and refreshing to work with. You know, it's like, I worked with people in junior high and they're so like, so self-conscious and so reserved, and it's just awkward.

You go to high school. Hard stage. Yeah, people will do anything to get attention. They will do anything to stand out. They'll do anything. And it's fun, you know, it creates just like convivial admin. And of course, there are like exceptions to that, obviously. But as a general rule, that's just how it was. And I think that I, okay, so I live in, um, like a small town and I worked at the high school and now I work at the university. So some of the people that I worked with at the high school, I see at the university now. So I've watched them go from the stage of, you know, Leo, and they're just like carefree and they're not self-conscious. Now they're in uni, they're in college, and it's like the sudden, it's like ice water has been thrown on them. There's this sudden realization that people are critiquing them, that people are judging them. And it, it changes their, they're not as like, there's one person I'm thinking of in particular who he used to be just so like open and loud and just carefree. And like he's like, since he's entered college, it's like he has so many worries now. I see him all the time and he's like worried about his scholarships, worried about this and that. I work in the financial aid office.

So that's what the Virgo stage. Yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, that's real. Leads us into the Virgo stage. Absolutely.

That's about 18 to 24 that we're dealing with there. And, uh, you know, we're getting our first degrees within that time frame of our life. And that is when we're very worried about what we're going to be. We are taking stock about of of what, what our skills are, what do we need to add? We are buzzing around trying to figure out how we're going to support ourselves. So we're really looking at the, what are the mechanics of life, of putting a life together? You know, how do I pay rent? How do I balance a checkbook? What is a debit card? We're learning all of the things that are about maintaining ourselves and about how to live as an adult. Um, yeah, it's a, it's a stage of life where we're really, I, I would say receiving our first training as to how we're going to live on our own at that, that point in our life. So yeah, we are worried about our major, how we're gonna make the rent, um, how we're going to file a claim if we get into a car accident. I mean, these things are all new at that phase of life. So yeah, it's, uh, sort of the springboard to the rest of our life because if we set ourselves up well, um, during the Leo and the Virgo phase, we have a pretty good chance of having a, a good or a better or reasonably good rest of our life. My mom used to always say, if you can just keep children from making the biggest mistakes of their life when they are teenagers, you just keep them from like driving off a cliff, or just keep them alive. If they don't make, you know, any catastrophic mistakes in, you know, as teenagers, and I would say in the college age too, then, you know, what, they're pretty good. They're pretty good after that because we've got through a lot of our youthful impulses, you could say. So this is why car insurance companies lower their rates when you turn 25 because statistically, you're in a, in a phase of life where you're more, uh, prone to being careful rather than to being risky. So we're still learning about things. In fact, yesterday, my daughter was actually rear-ended. Some 18-year-old kid rear-ended the car behind her at 40 miles an hour, pushed that car into her. She had a big black eye and her back hurts, and the bumpers destroyed. And the kid got out and, you know, said his brakes failed. No, he was texting. So that would be in that phase of life where we are still learning, you know, how to, uh, how to manage ourselves, how to manage our lives, um, dealing with some very real world consequences. Now, that kid's gonna have to learn how to deal with insurance companies. So there's a, there's a lot of, uh, practical growth at that point in our life.

Any other comments?

I was going to say the teenage phase is so hilarious to me. I've also worked with, I've taught at all ages, four up. And teenagers are funny because they're still such babies, but they're like, I'm grown. Like, because I, yep, I remember saying that the exact thing to my parents.

Yes, I don't know about laughing. I experienced anything. They don't know anything about the world, but it's just, it's really adorable, but they try to serve themselves anyway.

I kind of, I had a question, um, about back in the fifth house in Leo and when you're talking about it and thinking about the stage of life and I'm looking at my own chart. I have Pluto in the fifth house and both of my grandpas passed away within like two months of each other. And I'm curious of whether having Pluto in that house would that be kind of like a signifier for like experiencing some sort of, because it was pretty traumatic when that happened. And I don't know if that was like, they passed, yeah, age, yeah, I was 17 and both of them died within like two months of each other. And it was like my senior year of high school, supposed to be a fun time and all this stuff and and it wasn't.

Oh no. [Music] Experiences of trauma or grief or crisis. Absolutely. And loss is something that makes our, us physically actually respond. Yeah, like our immune system. Nothing like a loss or a death will make our immune implement.

Divorce could also be that. This is it's, it's loss. Pluto in the fifth house. And my parents got divorced when I was 18. So.

Oh, that's something that is, oh, yeah. Well, yeah, looking at where Pluto is, so is where we can have our most our crisis. Absolutely. And our transformation, where we could potentially master that area of life as well, because Pluto does have two sides. Yeah, I think there's something to that, Maria.

Yeah, no, I, I love, I love the planet Pluto, but it's kind of just like, it's kind of like Saturn in a way. Well, it really teaches you things, but that's a transformation. The two. Absolutely.

Celia, um, if Pluto is like in the fourth house, or I have my Sun and Pluto like within one degree conjunction in the fourth house, could that be like narcissistic abuse?

Well, Sun and Pluto together does indicate a dominant parent, usually the father, that had a very strong personality. Yeah. What sign is it in? Scorpio. Okay. So that would contribute to the possibility that we're dealing with a dominant parent that had some Scorpionic or control or power issues in their their own personality. And that's in the context of the fourth house, so that's developing your, well, that's home life, that's the confines of the home and the past and the family. And so I would be very suspicious that there would be something like that going on if I saw that in a natal chart.

Okay. Uh, anybody else have anything to add?

I was going to say, kind of related to what we're talking about now, I think as far as Virgo, I feel like from 18 to 24 is also kind of the age where people begin to start thinking about healing sometimes. Maybe you're like, oh sure, I was kind of traumatized in these ways as a child. There are these things about me that I'd like to change and work on.

Very true. I always say that the 20s are for fixing what our parents did to us. That's what we go through. That's a lot of business. So, um, yeah, we start to realize it even, you know, we get out of the house and get some distance and sometimes find things to compare what we've been through too and realize, you know, what, what worked and what didn't. And I think it's, it's very normal for a lot of us to struggle with anger and grief and, um, even resentment in our twenties as we figure out, you know, what we went through and what was our part. And then we start to have our own kids, and then we are really able to achieve some perspective that we didn't have before, because parenthood is the school of the gods and it will make you compassionate for your own parents. So I, I think all the stages help us to to understand what we've been through. Absolutely.

Is, um, exploring the world with our mouth, is that Taurus phase too?

Yes, the oral phase. Yeah. Everything goes in the mouth at about, you know, 18, 18, well, forever, actually. I would say that that's that's something that's overlapping from Aries to Taurus as well, because we're, we're developing those sensory, our our motor skills in Taurus and or sensory, um, I say a sensory environment. What is that? Is that psychological impulse to try to discern something by putting it in the mouth? Like, I don't, I've always been curious about what that is. I think that you, you know, something really well if you put it in your mouth. You know it really well. Think about it. Your mouth is more sensitive. They can tell you more of the nuances and the, the rises and concavity of something than any other way. Like if you are holding a pencil, like this pen here, can hold this pen like you know, I can feel it like this and sit here and doodle with it. But if I do this, now I know it. I know it so much better. I can feel like this little rise on the tip here with my tongue that I cannot feel with my fingers. So I think that it's how we become really familiar with something. Familiarity is a Taurus thing. We like what's familiar. We like what is, we don't, we're not into change in that Taurus phase. So we love change in, um, Gemini. We're up for that. But we're more developing our [Music] uh, ideas of possession in that Taurus phase rather than of, now I have friends to share things with in the Gemini phase of things.

Does that help?

Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.

Travis, um, just as like a general observation, I think that it's fascinating that the further that you get from Aries, the further that you get from yourself. Like you take these successive steps. Like with Taurus, it's like immediate environment. And the further along you go, the further that kind of like sphere of immediacy grows. And I just think that that is like fascinating, you know, that of course you kind of begin with the essential self, you begin with I, and then it becomes mine. You know, and like, I don't know, I just think that that's just this is fascinating.

Yeah, it's our archetypal journey. Absolutely. And that leads us to the idea of other in Libra, because you start out with me, and it's only me, and all I know is me, and how everything relates to me in Aries. And we go through these stages of growth to kind of get further from home. And now in Libra, we're looking at the partnership stage. So this is about age 24 to 35, 37, when we are starting to think about settling down, think about, uh, you know, finding a significant other. And we're at this point where, you know, we can either support another person or support ourselves, or at least pitch in on the bills. And because we've gone through that Virgo stage of setting ourself up to understand and function as an adult. So in, um, Libra, it's about we. That's where relationship happens at that, that phase of life. And that's where statistically most of us do our partnering and having our children, having them a little bit older in these days, because we're living longer. It's more socially acceptable to, you know, breed at 45, but traditionally it was into our mid-30s that we used to have children. So, um, yeah, we go from me to we. And in Libra, we're developing the ability to live with another, the ability to cooperate. Cooperation is a part of partnership. If we don't cooperate, we got no partnership. So there's a strong, um, uh, other quality, you know, thinking about the other, learning to consider the other's feelings, the other's, uh, situation. And, um, there's a selflessness that is necessary in order to be in any successful partnership. That doesn't mean that it's that we have no self, because that's not healthy either, but we need to have that ability to see beyond our own self and to take into consideration what the partner that we're with needs or wants as well.

Anybody have any ideas about Libra?

Just a kind of a weird question for me specifically on on that stage of life. So I have Chiron in the seventh house and I didn't have my first girlfriend until I was 24. And then, um, and then I now I'm engaged, but that all happened like started at 24. Just before that, it seemed like impossible to ever be with another human being. Like I just couldn't fathom it. But would having Chiron in that house have an effect on that? Or, um, I'm just kind of curious.

Having Chiron in the seven, I haven't noticed that it has that it's specific to late, uh, late, uh, partnerships or partnerships developing, um, later. And I wouldn't say the 24 is later. I said that's right on time. That's, uh, it's right in there.

When it comes to having the best chance of success, um, but Chiron in the seventh house, that's the area of life where you will experience, uh, a lot of your sensitivities, a lot of feeling, um, you know, whole or shattered or wounded, and potentially having the other happen where you can feel that relationships are actually something that bring healing, wholeness, completion to your life. So the seventh house is going to be a point of contention because Chiron is there. This is a wonderful placement for a counselor or for somebody who is, uh, you know, naturally attuned to understanding what it is that other people are going to want or need or go through. Um, but I, I would think that we would find more information in the rest of the chart if we were to look at it in its entirety.

Joe, I'm just a little aside. I, I have a Chiron that likes to bounce between the seventh and eighth house, and I'm 28 and I've never been in a relationship. So you might be on to maybe there's something there. Yeah, that's the point of, of, uh, uh, I've tried, of difficulty. Oh, you've got a lot going on. Um, and I think that people should not be settling down. My personal opinion is people should not be settling down permanently until after their Saturn return. That's my personal feeling. Statistically, when we look at relationships that begin after age 28, of an 80% chance, better, better chance of lasting. Statistically, 80% make it. That is huge because who we are at 24 is not who we are at 28. We're changing so much.

Travis, um, to that point, um, I think that you're totally right. Like my partner and I got together when we were 20, and it felt like for, and this is like, he'll corroborate this as well, like for the first four or five years that we were together, it was us trying to change the other to be more like ourselves. And it was like, we had it figured out and the other just had it wrong, you know? And it spent a lot of time fighting, and it was like, very tumultuous because we were not tolerant of what the other was bringing to the table. And there was just this sense that what we had learned in early adulthood was the most essential thing. And then after we had been together for, you know, a couple of years, and we kind of had this, like, moment of reckoning to where it's like, we have to appreciate what the other is bringing, you know, otherwise we're not going to make it. We've loved each other too much to let each other go, you know? And it's like, that has been the key is learning to communicate with each other and learning to, like, appreciate what they are, what the other already brings in. He's my opposite in every way. We're complete opposites. See, even the way you phrase that is very eerie. And he is my opposite, but whatever. He's got a Moon in Libra, and he's all Virgo and Libra and blah, blah, blah. So we're just, we kind of complete each other in that way because I'm all Aries and Pisces. But, uh, yeah. Um, it wasn't until after 25 that we really learned to meet each other where the other stood and appreciate what the other brought to the table without having to change themselves. And I think that's part of the Virgo phase that we go through about 18 to 24 when we want things just so, you know, we've grown up with a romantic idea. We've grown up with a vision of what we're going to have, what we should have, and what relationships are and what they should be. And, and I think we approach relationships in our young phase like that, like, you know, it's, it's going to fit my idea and you're going to fit my idea. And if they don't, then we tend to see it as a failure. When we are still developing the capacity to see beyond our own ideas about other people and to really take into account who they really are, which comes in that Libra phase because our brains are still growing until about age 25. They haven't even stopped growing. I mean, it takes until about age 25 to figure out all the nuances of social behavior. I think that's why human brains continue to grow even past adulthood because we have such a complex social system, a complex social animal. It takes that long to understand it all. So we're still maturing until our mid-20s and, um, it's at that point that we go into our full adulthood when you go into that Libra phase. And before then, I think we're still, we're still growing.

Anybody else have anything to add before we move on to Scorpio? Roxanne? So I have Moon in the seventh house, and I feel like all that I want, all that I want to do is like for everyone else all the time. Like, and I wanted to be perfect. So like, I'm catering to everyone, but, and I feel like nobody does anything for me. I don't know if that's kind of, do you think what's the sign related to what's the sign? Aquarius. Oh, in Aquarius in a seven, but it sounds like 29 degrees, so it's really kind of weird right now for me. But I feel like square Venus is where all of that comes in, like why I'm doing for everyone and want everyone to be happy, but I just feel like I do too much. So it just allows people to take advantage of me. I don't know if that, I'm wondering if you have an aspect to Neptune in another part of your chart, or if you have planets in the 12th house, or, um, I have no nothing in Pisces. Maybe more going on that that I, I can't envision. I'm hearing more in your language than just having the Moon in the seventh house, but that is a contributing factor. That will be a big thing that puts you in a position where, um, you know, connection with others, relationships, people, that's going to be where you find, that's the context of stability for you. So, um, it's coming into Aquarius, so we tend to have a natural ability to, uh, to look at things rather than feel things. So I'm one, something else is going on with the Moon square, square Mercury, opposite Mars, opposite Jupiter. So there's the Moon is square to Jupiter and square to, okay. So there's a lot going on. You're being pulled in many, many different directions. So the opposition to Jupiter in itself can bring out buttloads of generosity that can be inappropriate. Um, but it does sound like you're being pulled in many directions, which is where we need to achieve harmony. You need to really look at what are all these different needs, how are they conflicting with each other, and how can you make a life for yourself that allows all these different needs to express? That's why I feel like, um, it went from like for, you know, instead of I to we, then I'm in the stage of like, you, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's all about everyone else. Right, right. Well, that is usually in an attempt to achieve stability or safety or security. So there's this underlying coping mechanism that you're still employing that isn't working. And it seems like it is, that's why we put it in motion, but then we use it and we're like, this, you know, I'm right back where I started. So I would look at the South Node there also with Moon. So there's things that are going on. Yeah, okay. But yeah, I relate to the other very, very much so. Yeah, relationships in general, that's a, that's a rough thing to, to, um, you know, have to develop our own sense of space and our own sense of self. So sometimes it, that takes some growth in order to get there. And we have to have enough experiences of, uh, you know, selling ourselves out in order to even understand that that's going on. So it sounds like you're making progress because you, you see it.

Travis, did you say that you had Moon square Venus too? Yes. And, uh, yeah, I have that aspect, and it's like, I always get in these situations to where I feel like I need people more than they need me. And I think that something in my life that I've had to learn is like self-respect and like self-valuing and like to tell myself like, I do matter. I don't need people to need me to be important, you know? And like, I bring something to the table and I deserve recognition and love, even when people, and I'm not saying like, it's all just like in a self-illusion because it's a very real situation of being underappreciated and under, like acknowledged. And I think that you have to be your own ally because I think it's very easy with Moon and Venus square to kind of beat yourself up when you're not pleasing people. I can definitely speak from experience with that. So I just think you have to self-advocate and be the person for yourself sometimes that you need others to be. Oh, that's wise right there. Absolutely. Yeah, we have to. Thank you for that. Yeah, good stuff there.

Okay, guys, should we take, um, a five-minute break and then come back and we'll pick up with Scorpio? Okay. Okay. Everybody, let's give everybody just a couple more seconds here to come back in. When is your schedule going to be open again for readings or chart readings or consultations? Oh, I can, because every time I look on your site, it says you're booked up. I am. I'm booked up for the next three months, but I can find a place for you, um, next week or the week after. So, where, that would be awesome. I'll send you an email. If anybody else in the group wants an appointment, just let me know too. Um, I mean, possibly booked up all the time, but just send me an email if you want me to fit you in from the back of the schedule. And that's two questions. Kenya, um, I have two questions. One, I saw you started your synistry module, um, but part one is sold out already. Had you add more seats? Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. There's two other sessions too, because my question was going to be about the synistry too. Okay. Did you have one more question? Well, I'm curious because I saw there was a part two and a part three. Are those different courses? These, like, yeah, okay. So they're all between, like, a month or two months or something. And I'm still condensing it. Um, in my, uh, in my private group, we're doing the synistry, uh, course as well, and it's, we spend like an entire lesson per planetary pair. So the lessons in this synistry course are going to be fairly long because we have a lot to fit in in a short amount of time. But, um, yeah, they're all separate modules. My other voice, oh, sorry. Good. Sorry. Oh, my other question is, um, an aside, would you have you ever thought of or would you consider teaching, like, kind of a business course for other astrologers about, like, how to kind of build their business or, like, you know, things about building their site or bookings or things that you found successful as an astrologer? I'm stuck at that kind of stuff. I can't. You can't? I am not a business person. I am not good with social media. I'm not good with any of it. I'm really not concerned with the business side of things. It's a wonder I've had any success at all because I'm so creativity-oriented and not business-oriented. The person to go to would be, um, an astrologer I used to teach quite a bit with called, uh, named Samantha Vilpoo, and I can put, I can send you her link. She's really good at all of that stuff. That is her jam. So she is from the intuitive group. You have? Yeah, she, she knows all the ins and outs and stuff. I really don't. So I've looked at my brother a lot to create my site and do all the boring stuff. And so I'm not really a good source for how to build a business. For me, it's just, I, it just happened because people really resonated with what I had to say. And that's what I was going to say. Your videos on, like, synistry and like composite stuff completely opened my eyes to, like, the aspect of astrology. I'm very, like, uh, critical when it comes to opening new doors because I think that a lot of pop astrology just has a lot of monk, like a lot of just garbage that you really just have to sift through. I sat through, I could not stop watching, especially your composite videos. They're spot-on and it just opened my eyes to family relationships, my relationship with my partner, like, really, really was just like, super helpful for understanding like why the dynamics are there and how do I kind of work with people. I appreciate that. Thank you. Celia, did you have a question? Um, yeah, I, I purchased, uh, I guess I purchased the wrong class because I thought those three classes were like all the same and just starting at different dates. Oh, okay. That's okay. Refund it? Yeah, well, I, I didn't get an email confirmation, so that was my only question. Okay, we'll figure it out. Whatever happened, it'll, it'll work out. Alex, um, I was just wondering if you were doing another synistry part one, um, class another time this year. I will be, uh, re-running it, um, and if you want, if, if you didn't want or couldn't attend the class, I can send the audio link. You can still sign up to receive the audio link if you wanted to to have to go to this session but couldn't make it. But I will be offering it again after summer. I'll start that whole thing again after summer. But you know that you, like, three-month rotation at Kenya, do you know that you can record, like, the Zoom classes so that the video is? I, I just didn't know if you knew because, yes, I do. But a lot of people don't like to show up on the video, so I just did the video so everybody'd be more comfortable. Cool. Okay.

So going into Scorpio, this is the stage of, um, midlife. We're starting to deal with our mortality. So about age 35, 37 to the mid-40s is where we're at in the Scorpio stage of life. And before this time, unless you have a lot of Pluto or Saturn in your chart, before this time, aging and dying, death, that's a concept that's something that we know will happen, but it's, it's not really real to us until we come to this phase of life and we start to realize that it's halfway over. And, you know, midlife doesn't happen at age 50 because most of us don't live to be a hundred. It happens in our thirties and in our forties. And we start to think about all the things we haven't done, all the things that we haven't experienced. We start to panic about the amount of time that we have left. We start to realize that time is not going to last forever and we aren't invincible. And so this realization that it really will be over one day causes the anxiety that's there in all humans all the time to erupt. And we start to, to, uh, act out at that phase of life. Now, some people have a worse midlife crisis than others. Some people are dealing with more repression than others. Some people come from environments or conditions that were more restrictive than others. So some people really explode when it comes to the midlife crisis phase. Some people don't. If you have a lot of Uranus in you or you've lived a more self-directed life, if you haven't lived a life that was more checking off the boxes, the midlife crisis is probably going to go relatively unnoticed. But if you've lived a life that was more, you know, by the books or that wasn't that you weren't mindfully participating in, that's when we tend to have a rough time. So people also who get married very, very young or get into relationships very, very young, and that's pretty much all they know, they also can have a very rough time because they haven't done a lot of living. There's a feeling of, I need more experience or I need more exposure. I only have so much time. So this is another reason why, in my opinion, when it comes to having very successful relationships, really settling down after or around that Saturn return, that puts us in a better position to be able to withstand that midlife crisis because we've had some experience, we've had some exposure, we've, we've lived some life. If we have, you know, I haven't been more self-directed through our 20s, but like, um, you know, women who come from, you know, for example, a very fundamentalist or strict or religious background, get very married very young, they can have a real hard time around that midlife phase because there's a feeling of not knowing herself, not having lived her life. See, another woman who has, you know, made some decisions for herself, she's, you know, gone away from home, she's had an education, maybe she settled down a little bit later, very, very different experience of the midlife crisis. So how we have, how we've lived has a lot to do with how we're going to deal with our fear of dying at that phase of life because death anxiety is something that is common to all humans. And in astrology, we understand it as the primary motivating factor for fear and for change and for, um, that paranoia, for crisis, loss.

Roxanne, is it fear of our own death or death of just anyone, just death period? It's unknown. It's the fear of the unknown. And if other people die, they go into an unknown place. If we die, we're going to something that's unknown. And so humans do not like what is not known. We would rather deal with what's known, even if it's horrible. And in the last lesson, we talked about the devil that you know may be better than the devil that you don't know. And that's a human. We should all embroider that on a pillow as humans because we all approach life pretty much with that mindset until we don't. Until we start to understand that just because something is unknown, just because something's in the dark, does not mean it's scary. It doesn't automatically mean it's bad. Being a Scorpio person, like, I'm, I'm obsessed with horror films, you know, the archetypal Scorpio. I'm not afraid. I love it. Like, I'm just, I collect like roadkill and just stuff like that, skulls, and I just love, and I make art with it. Like, I love it. It doesn't scare me. I don't know. Well, maybe I've just been through that fear phase already, I guess. Well, I would imagine that you've kind of been in the middle of it, kind of in the center of it all your life, instead of like running from it. Well, it's, it's familiar for you. Death is familiar. That's something that is even comforting. So we look at it differently. Some of us cling to our anxiety, some of us don't. Some of us do anything that we can to get away from it. This sounds like you've embraced it. Roxanne. I'm trying. Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

Alex, and I would just say, I think because I feel the same way, I'm obsessed with like ghosts and horror movies and things like that. And I feel like for me, it could be a part of kind of making the unknown more known. Like you're kind of familiarizing yourself with death in the afterlife. Sure. It's our way to try to attach meaning to the mystery or to maybe expose ourselves to something that could potentially be scary so it's not as scary. Yeah, I think that's a lot of why we expose ourselves to horror films is we want to be scared, but we know that we're essentially safe. Yeah. And not only that, it's like, I even feel so much compassion for people that kill. Just like, I don't know, I just feel bad for them. Something like, it's not their fault that that's what they do. And I don't know, when you look at the biological makeup of all of us, um, it makes you really compassionate for all kinds of behaviors because there's some argument to be made that we are simply our biology. So there's, um, yeah, there's, there's the deepest motivating factor. It's what gives life. Gives life. Gives us a lust for life. Death, it's what makes life important. We just lost our Pomeranian last weekend. We'd had for many, many years, and he was the center of our family for 13 years. Even when, you know, we were dealing with teenagers, my husband and I going through those rough times, that little guy, he kept us all together. He was what we could all agree on, no matter what was happening. And his passing was, uh, sorry. Oh, I appreciate that. It was, it was so serious for us because we lost a family member. Um, and I just ordered some more pictures, more prints. We have pictures of Itchy all over the house. He's more pictures of Itchy than we do of each other. It's, um, it's a wonderful thing when we can be brought together by a process of loss or grief because that can happen. I feel like our family, like Itchy gave us the gift of entering into a new phase of how we're going to relate to each other. It was the gift that he gave us while he was here and the gift that he gave us when he's not.

So can you give, like, any advice on if there is anxiety with death, like how to begin? Because I kind of think now, like, I love animals, and every pet that I've ever had for years that I loved died a horrible death, hit by a car, something bad happened. So I guess I can see where the fear comes. But so now I don't want the cats outside. I just, how do you get past that part of it? Well, I think it's a balance. It's a balance. We know that anything can happen. That's a part of being in the world. Anything can happen. And that's why we invent a lot of our Jupiter Sagittarian stories because if we really, really sit and think about the realities of death and anything could happen, I don't think most of us would move very much. I think we'd be riveted to our place because we were like, a plane, a plane could land on me right now. You know, a scorpion could come up and bite me right now. Although they actually don't kill you, just make you sick. It's a myth that they kill you. The way that we soothe ourselves is though, is what gives meaning to life because we understand the essential, essential truth about life is that we don't know. We don't know what happens. There's a mystery. There's a darkness. What happens after death is unknown. And so we, we deal with our anxiety by balancing it with optimism. So how you deal with the fact that anything could happen to a beloved pet is that, yeah, you take that into account. Bad things can happen. That's a part of what it is to be in the world. But there's also a quality of life that the pet needs to be able to have. We don't want to cut back on their quality of life so we can keep them safe. There's a balance between the two. So I would say keeping cats inside is a good thing, my personal opinion.

But do you think if there's something in our chart that makes us prone to have accidents happen to our pets, should we just not have pets to save them? I don't know if it's so much prone or as because the chart is showing outlook and it's showing potentials. This is pretty much showing how we interpret the world ourselves. So people that have a lot of Scorpio, they're not going to take death lightly. There's going to be something that's extremely impactful to them. Whereas somebody, say, that has a lot of Sagittarius or Gemini or other archetypes in their chart, they may have those same tragedies that have had come to their pets, but they would interpret and see it differently. Well, and I think, was Travis saying from the last class, he just asked if people with a lot of eighth house planets tend to experience more tragedy. But I don't have any planets there. I actually have never experienced someone very close to a human that has died. Well, my mother, but we weren't very close. But it's the animals. Yeah, always the animals, which, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we can have certain overlays too, like eighth house ruling the sixth, I can be a real problem, um, or sixth in the eighth. There's different combinations that we, we can see, um, that can make that a particularly devastating thing to happen to us. But, uh, people that, you know, have a lot of eighth house planets, the tragedies that do happen to them, they would internalize that most likely, and that would affect them and, and, uh, influence. I guess that's because I do have eighth house ruler in the fifth. Isn't that animals? That is enjoyment of things. And that, that is the animals that we enjoy. Yeah, animals in my opinion, found in the sixth, helpful animals. But the animals that we have just for pleasure, just most apples these days, that is a fifth house thing. Yeah.

Travis, did you have something to add? Uh, it was like, kind of about Sagittarius. Like, I think I'll just wait till we get there. Okay. Awesome. I was going to say that. Kenya, yeah, I, uh, I'm a pretty Plutonian person. And, um, when I was four, I actually had my first encounter with death. My, I've actually found my great-grandmother dead. Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, it was really interesting. Well, I mean, thank you guys. It was a long time ago. Um, it was interesting though, because my remembrance of that experience is just watching everyone else freak out. She's, you know, the matriarch, watching everyone else grieve so heavily. And I wasn't, I don't know if it's because I have that Uranus-Neptune blend right on the ascendant. I don't, I don't know what, you know, why I had the reaction I had. But I didn't cry. I wasn't horrified. I immediately understood what happened when I found her. Um, and no one had explained death to me or anything like that. And at the funeral, you know, my mom was really crying, really going through it because my, my great-grandmother, her grandmother, was more like a mother to her than her actual mother. Um, and I said, oh, I was four. I was four years old. Um, someone asked how old I was, and I said to her, I actually don't remember saying this, but I apparently said to her, I was like, don't, don't worry, don't cry. She's in a better place. Like, I was comforting, like, the adults around me. And again, no one had explained some concept of the afterlife or anything like that to me, but I just unders, I just had an understanding of the, the temporary nature of life and of this physical realm very, very early on without a need, um, to have that explained. Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, it's supposed to feel like their pain is over, no matter what it was that they're, I don't grieve over people. Animals, I do. I don't know. It's so weird. But I see, I understand what she meant by that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think with animals too, sometimes the grief can come because we allow ourselves to love them. We allow ourselves, like, they're so innocent. And like, I don't know, I understand. Like, I remember as a kid, I used to want to be a veterinarian and I ended up changing my mind because I would not be able to handle so many animals dying because like that would be an inevitable part of being a veterinarian, like having to put animals down, like animals dying on the operating table. And I remember thinking that like, I could probably handle being a surgeon more than my condition, right? Yeah, more than I can handle being a veterinarian or anything to do with animals dying. Yeah, I can see how how you could feel that way.

Alex, um, first, I'm so sorry if you're lost. I just lost my puppy about a month ago, and my goodness, it's just such a heartbreaking experience. But, um, I was wondering, um, because this conversation about death anxiety and everything is kind of making me think about how there are a lot of kind of helicopter parents who will be really strict with their children, and I feel like it's out of a fear of them being hurt or getting into trouble or something like that. And since Scorpio is kind of associated with controlling behaviors, I was wondering if you would associate controlling behaviors with death anxiety, or if it's something? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. In fact, um, when you're looking at human development, children who go farther away from their parents physically, who actually be, you know, 20 or 30 or 50 feet away from their parents, those tend to be the secure children. The children who will not be physically distanced from their parents tend to be the ones that have adopted or absorbed a lot of their parents' anxiety. Yeah, attachment versus secure attachment. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you can see this a lot in Pygmy society. Um, African Pygmy society, best example of parents of good parents that you can find is in that particular culture. The mothers don't give their children a ton of instruction. They let their children figure things out. So, for instance, uh, you know, if a child is going towards a fire, the bonfire that they have every night, the Pygmy mother will not reach out and pull that child back. Learn the hard way. Yeah, she'll let that child's instincts and senses and own understanding teach them what is going to happen. So there's a, I think, a preemptive way that we keep our children from learning lessons. A lot, especially with Generation X, my generation has been really bad about coddling their children. And, you know, we haven't let our children play outside and we've really instilled a paranoia, um, in, in our, our, our kids. There's so much more to fear out there now than there used to be, it seems like. Yeah, yeah, there is, and we've definitely responded to that. Um, and, and I think it's a symptom of our society as well. We don't have a safe society. When you go to certain cultures, um, like in Denmark or different Nordic cultures, they, the mothers actually walk away from their children in public because there's a trust among their society that they know they won't be hurt by the other. Right. They will watch each other's children. You see this also in, um, a lot in Mexican society as well. If you have, you know, a lot of several different Mexican families say, meet up at a park or they, they just watch each other's children. It's just part of how they interact with each other. That's why do you think that our society is not like that? Well, the United States, no community above all other things, as individual rights and individual riches. And that's had a societal consequence. Yeah, yeah.

I wanted to just, I'll go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, just to jump right in, I think there's also so much fear-mongering about people who are different than us too. Sure. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, my mom's Mexican-American and my dad's like Armenian but from the Middle East. And I, I think like, uh, they're very, both like very communal. And I, I guess like part of, um, learning to sort of like accept the way my life has turned out and how it might be different than the American or the, the version of success touted in the US is like, sort of realizing that, um, what, what I'm doing is very common in both cultures, but it's maybe not seen as so common in the US. And so I think like that's been a lot of my identity struggle, just like learning that, like, okay, I come from communal cultures and, um, I need to stop like comparing myself to this, like US version of, of what's good. Yeah, I think so. That's a lot of maturing. A lot of what it takes is, yeah. And I think as, as we grow up, we decide our own values. Especially when we get to Sagittarius stage. This is when we, we decide, you know, what is the meaning that I give to things? What are the values that I hold? Those values are very much a consequence of what we don't know. So another thing about Sagittarius is this is where we make up our laws. The enforcement of law is actually a Capricorn thing, but the coming up with laws is a very idealistic thing because we're coming up with laws because we want a certain outcome, a certain type of society. So our laws are in service to that. But our laws are actually a consequence of Scorpio. Scorpio is all the taboos. It's all the things we do that make it so we need to have laws. It's all, I feel like Libra is sort of the politician. Yes. That very much reminds me of Apollo, the diplomat. Yes, the diplomat that we have there. So we have our deepest, most ardent, intense desires in Scorpio, and that produces the need to control those or to have laws. So the unwritten laws are in Scorpio, and the written laws are in Sagittarius. And, um, so Sagittarius is where we develop our cultural mythologies. They actually begin in Cancer because Cancer is where we have our tribe. So way, way, way back when humans were just developing as different tribal, uh, groups, you know, we didn't have a one-world society. We were still very cut off from each other. We came up with our different mythologies. We came up with our different meanings that we gave to things. Those meanings were very much confined to the horizon that we could see. What, what, what was in front of us because we could only see from here to there. We didn't have any aerial views of things. We didn't have the wheel. We didn't have places, you know, ways to, to see generally what was beyond the immediacy of our horizon. So our stories are very local. The stories that we all started out with, and these are the original mythologies that we all came up with as a way to explain our reality. And a lot of the mythologies that we came up with cropped up as a way to explain death. We didn't know religions, which is Sagittarius, right? Religion. Yeah, religion. To cling to that you can give to things. It's a result of what we don't know. So the mysteries of death make us decide we need to know. And then we come up with these stories, and these are comforting stories that we pass around and teach to each other. And it really becomes a lot of the meanings that we give to things. So we bring in the raw data in the sign of Gemini. We extrapolate that into meanings because, um, Sagittarius is the, yeah, what is the word? It's, there's a word I can never think of it. I'll think of it in a second. I've always had a problem with that word for years. Abstraction. That's what it is. Sagittarius is what we abstract the facts into. So the abstract mind, that's why Sagittarius is, uh, language, complex language.

Travis, I don't know. I have a Moon in Sage and like Sun, Mercury, Venus in the ninth house. And I feel like they're, your description of Sag is too distant. Like I feel like it's not just the religion, it's that longing for meaning. It's that longing for cosmic. It's that, that feeling that gets us to explore. We want to know more. It's the joy of seeking too. It's that joy of exploration of finding. You know, I feel like that's the antidote to death anxiety is losing yourself in the exploration of life and losing yourself and, you know, like the spirit of being alive and of exploring the world of knowledge and of experiences. Like that is what I, to Sagittarius. Yes, that is a side. And hopefully, that's the side we're growing on, is the side of being open, of exploring. But there's two ways that we can, if we can explore, there's two ways that we can grow. We can gain knowledge. We could either say, because Sagittarius is higher learnings, universities, and colleges, so we could say, grow up in us, in an area where pretty much everybody's the same religion, their same belief system, thinks the same way. And then that person, say, goes to a religious university that reinforces and expands on what they've already thought was true. It's not so much an exploratory education, is it? Or we can't go get an education. We can expose ourselves to things that we didn't know before, people that we haven't been comfortable with in the past, new ideas, new adventures. So we can either achieve our comfort and our happiness and our meaning by becoming a walking logical fallacy where everything is circular. Or culture has every personal planet in Sage, just as an example of what you're talking about. You're just saying every person, every five planets, that's not always a teachable position. Uh, you would think it would be, and that's one side to Sagittarius. But the other side is that we feel we already know. And so we, we want to know more of what we already know. But it's, it's like, um, you know, if somebody has a religious text, any religious text, and they say, you know, this is the word of God. You say, well, can you prove to me that that book is the word of God? They said, well, it says in the book that it's the word of God. That is a circular argument. You can't use a book to prove the book. Yeah, they're not any outside information. That's what we get into in Sagittarius when we are just believing for the sake of believing dogma. Not boring. Sorry. Travis, can be dogma on one hand, but I like to focus on the inspirational part of it because I think that that is like the gift of Sagittarius. It's that, that like cinnamon sugar rush of the holiday season before winter sets in, you know, you've had this brush with death and you need something to keep you warm at night. And I feel like that is like the spirit of Sag, just that that jollyness, you know, that I don't know, it's just a joad of eve, it's just the happiness of being alive and what you do have. And I don't know, there's no patience there too with Sagittarius. They're just very, they're there, and then they're gone. They're one of my favorites, but they're, they're just, I feel like they don't stick around long enough because you want to know more from them because they inspire you to want to know. And then you're like, where did you go? It's a dynamic sign for sure. Absolutely. It's always on the move. And that's one of the qualities that we love about Sagittarius is that it's like, uh, you know, an arrow where the wind just sucks us in with it. And I totally agree that Sag can be such a flake, but it's not in a bad, you know, it's in, they don't mean to, it's just, it's just a consequence of being, you could say. And I'm, I'm just curious, while we're talking about religion, would there be like, um, certain, like markers, I guess, for someone questioning religion pretty early? Um, yeah, hard aspects between Saturn and Jupiter, hard aspects between Uranus and Jupiter. Um, what about Moon? And then I will get your question here in a little bit. Um, yeah, because we're looking at optimism versus pessimism, and also Saturn hard aspects to Pluto because we'd have the, I'm sorry, Jupiter hard aspects to Pluto because looking at the optimism of Jupiter, which that will act out the things of Sagittarius coming up against again, pessimism, restriction, um, the downside that we're looking at when we're looking at other planets. So dourness, disbelief, pessimism with Saturn, not being able to believe in things that are comforting because we know it's inherently with aspects of Pluto. And then with Uranus, would be like inherently skeptical, like, you know, show me, you know, where is this God that's hiding? Why does God hide? Would be asking, like, I wonder, I wonder if, uh, Moon square Uranus would indicate that, or Moon in the ninth house? Um, not in itself, but if Moon is ruling the ninth house or is, uh, in itself an aspect in itself in Sagittarius, then we can have. And Moon square Uranus, I do not follow any organized religion. I never have. I won't. Well, it's a more skeptical placement. Any square to Uranus is going to bring that into things that can be healthy. Yeah. My, my mom's in Pisces in the ninth house, so. Okay. So more prone to falling into belief rather than falling out of it, probably. Yeah, I don't know. But I wasn't raised religiously. It for me, it was like, it was a coping skill that I turned to as a result of my parents' divorce because my grandparents were so Catholic. But like, I was only Catholic for a couple of years, and then I started asking the, uh, forbidden questions, like, why the dinosaurs aren't in the Bible? And the nuns didn't really have satisfactory answers for me. So I'm like, okay, I think I'm out. No. My favorite one is, um, I think so. Yeah, I watched a video a few years ago about religious questions and somebody said, you know, uh, how do you explain the dinosaur bones? You know, how? And they said, well, God put those there to test our faith. So that I got very interesting. Yes, that's the other series is also teachers. It's always also teachers. It is entire learning teachers. Yes. And it's publishing Sagittarius as well. This is how we publish the words, just books, how the word spreads. So it's the preaching that that we all come across as human beings. And it's something that's always been with us. This need to be able to get out of bed in the morning, even though we know that someday we're going to die. That is a human need. It's always been with us. This need for optimism. So Sagittarius' need to believe, it's something that has kept us alive as a species. That's kept us from dying of depression. Yeah. Gemini gains the information, and Sagittarius shares. Yes. Absolutely. Sagittarius is a disseminating, um, sign. It distributes. This is the distributing sign. We're going to get into that when we talk about the modalities and subsequent lessons here. Yeah. What age is Sagittarius? Sorry, what age is Sagittarius? So Sagittarius is where we, we are dealing with about 45 to 55. Okay. 45, we could even say it, the 60, around that age range. We're coming into the peak of our adult life. And it's a stage of life where we're generally earning our most money. We have the ability to travel at this stage of life. We have the ability to go on a cruise. We have the ability to start enjoying some of, uh, our labor. So this is the peak earning. I was going to say that, um, also with in terms of like optimism and depression, um, studies have shown that humans are actually built to be naturally a little more optimistic. Yeah. Uh, to sort of like counter that, you know, anxiety around, uh, Yes. Agree. So the interesting thing is, people who are slightly depressed actually have the most realistic point of view. Oh, absolutely. Yes, definitely. And especially people, say, with Saturn on the descendant, they see most everything and most everybody, uh, through the lens of realism. So that's interesting. I, I do. Or no, I have five Cancer rising, so I have Capricorn on the descendant. Well, that could be the shadow self. Yeah, with the descendant, so that my Pisces is typically related with alcohol and drugs because they know so much, they don't want to know so much anymore. That could be a part of things. That could be a part of things. Yeah, drowning ourselves out. That, that's a Pisces deal. Drowning out reality. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But yeah, people that do have a lot of, um, starkness in their personality, they're the ones that you want to listen to when it comes to, you know, how the market is going to go, what to invest in, what's the trajectory of reality look like. And they don't have very many followers. These are not very popular people, and they will never have very many followers. So you want to look at people who aren't just going to feed you sugar. Now, it can't just be all sour either. It needs to be, you know, somebody that understands that good things can happen and frequently do. But people that generally see things in a stark way, they have a pretty good idea about what is the trajectory that we're on. People who see things positively will hope for positive things. We cannot know what to hope for unless we know how to interpret the actual facts as they are. If we interpret facts in a way that is only comforting, then we will only be hoping for comforting things. This reminds me very much of your great conjunction video that you put out with the, you know, transition from all the heavy-hitting outer planets and Sags moving into Capricorn, and you were like, people will just see what they want to see. And if we're not reckoning realistically with our shared reality, then there's going to be consequences. And

Then COVID-19 happened. So, yeah. Yeah. Now we have everything going into Aquarius. I actually have, um, that's even scarier. I don't know why everyone thinks that that's going to be our freedom. No, it won't. Aquarius is scary, scary. That's not what happened last time. Last time Pluto went into Aquarius, the big boys were in Aquarius. We went through, um, pretty much revolution throughout the entire world. Bring it on. This time, we're behind me. It's a part of progress. Everybody gets to see. And there will always be that dynamic tension between past and future, always, always that war between Saturn and Uranus, Pluto and Uranus. But change is a part of reality, and progress is going to happen.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I just want to get more clear because I know we've been having a little bit more of an open discussion, um, but I just want to get more clear on what the Sagittarius phase of life actually is. That ninth house phase of life. It is when we are starting to explore, but we're starting to have enough money, enough resources to take some trips, to grow, to have some fun, to be a little bit decadent, um, to remodel the house. So that's more the, the, the material side of what we're doing at that, that phase of life. But see, we're coming out of the darkness of middle age, where we've been wrestling with nihilism, we've been wrestling with meaninglessness, we've been wrestling with anxiety, midlife crisis. Yes, past midlife crisis gives rise to this need to enjoy the time that we have, right? That's what we do in Sagittarius. We plant a garden, even though we don't know if we'll be here tomorrow. We enjoy the time that we have. So it makes life more precious, knowing that it won't be here forever. I mean, even our little itchy for the past six months, we've, you know, been hearing him coughing and saying, you know, I think he may be going into congestive heart failure. We need to enjoy the time with him that we have. It makes it more precious, like how the grandparents spoiled the grandchildren, kind of like it's just that time of your life, you're just appreciating the little things and just enjoying your family and spending time. Yes, yes. We want to share, we want to enjoy because we've been through the darkness, and it's like it, it just makes us want to wake up. And we're like, okay, I'm going to die. I'm going to die someday. I may as well enjoy all the time to the hilt that I have right now. So it helps us to live in the moment. We're living in the moment in that Sagittarian stage of life. We're also involved in the community, a lot of civics. Some people are exploring, you know, going into leadership or politics at this point in our life as well. A lot of people are writing books. A lot of authors do not start writing until they're in their late 40s or their 50s, and I think they probably shouldn't because I think that's when we finally have something to say. But we're, we're starting to, uh, you know, distribute our knowledge as well, become a little bit guru-y ourselves because we have a little bit of age behind us. People are starting to come to us for advice at that point in our life.

So, so you were saying that you feel like a lot of people become politicians at that stage, and that's the age where it should happen? I, I guess, like, I don't know, no, if it ever should happen myself, politics, because it, it pulls a certain, it draws a certain type of personality to it. Yeah, I guess I'm a little more idealistic, so I feel like the younger generation is kind of what, who's being affected in some ways, a lot more so. I, I don't know. I, I feel like if more young people got involved, it might be better. I think there's something to that. Sure, that there's something to that. Um, I, I think that that young people, you know, bring current ideas to things. Old people try to institutionalize what has been because they see that as the safest framework for going forward. And there's some wisdom in that. Sometimes what's tried and true is the best way to go. Not all the time. Not all the time. That's why we can't use one instrument for everything. And we do need to have a variety of voices and ages within, uh, politics because they all bring a different perspective. So I think there's some wisdom in that. Sure.

Joe, did you have something to say? Oh, uh, yeah. I had a really weird question. Um, so I, I'm the youngest of nine. And, uh, I wonder if the, the life phase that your parents are in has an influence on your chart. So, for example, my parents were both in their late 30s when they had me. And I'm Scorpio rising, Scorpio moon, Pluto conjunct descendant. And my brother, who's like, you're awesome. Yeah. Uh, and so my brother, who's a year older than me, is Scorpio moon, Scorpio rising. I'm not sure which Pluto is. But the rest of my siblings don't have that kind of setup. So I wonder, is it because they were in their, like, late 30s in that phase of their life that they kind of, they kind of like influenced us? Just curious. I think Scorpios breed Scorpios. My mom was the same. Scorpio moon and Scorpio sending. My mother and her twin brother. Both my parents are Virgo Libras. And all the kids they had, except for me, were Virgo Libras. I don't know. Neither of my parents have a lot of Scorpio, but I do. My kids don't have a lot of Scorpio either, which is, I don't know, it's like it skips a generation or something. Maybe you've learned too much about yourself at this point. [Laughter]

So, Joe, I think there's some truth to that. That when we look at the charts of siblings, we can have, say, my family is a really good practical example. There's six children in my family. We all come from the same parents. We all have a very different interpretation of our parents. When you look at our charts, because we've all experienced our parents in different phases of their life. And see, I grew up when my parents really didn't have any money. They were very, very young. They got married when they were 17 and 19 years old, these two, and they're still together. So my mom had me when she was 20. And they had nothing until they were like, you know, in their late 20s. And they just kept breeding. I mean, by the time my mom was 28, she had six. So the youngest is spoiled. Oh, god, is she ever. Moon and conjunct to Jupiter. So there's a different interpretation that the children have because we dealt with our parents at different stages of their lives. They were more mature when they had the younger children, and they were babies when they had the older children. So their transits would make it a different, like, their transits would change the whole. They would be going through things. Yeah, right. My mother, she was going through a major midlife crisis in her 30s that affected my younger siblings. I didn't have that experience with her at all. So I think there's something to be said for absorbing what our environment has going on around us. We're products of our environment largely. We'll talk about that a lot when we get to the houses and subsequent lessons. So my daughter has Venus retrograde. I read a lot about her absorbing what was going on with me, which is kind of why I also had very low blood sugar during my pregnancy with her, which is also another correlation to that. That's the amniotic environment. Yes, Cancer. That's the amniotic fluid that we swim. [Music] Interesting. Yeah, the different water signs, they have, they're different. They represent their different types of fluid. Amniotic fluid in Cancer. The, the collective crap, like the collective sewage in Scorpio. And the collective water, the ocean, the ocean that all the continents and the islands are within in Pisces. So types of water there. So yeah, in Sagittarius, we are striving to bring our own meaning into our life because life is what you make of it. We decide what life means. We give the meanings to things. If we haven't dealt with our death anxiety and we are so needing to be comforted, then we go into Sagittarius in a way that we are not seeking the truth, we're seeking comfort. And the truth and comfort often don't have anything in common. A lot of people, I feel like, will, um, get saved around this time in their life. My complaints about all the time, she'll be like, someone used to be a gambler and a pimp and a thief, and then all of a sudden they found the Lord when they got old and they go to prison. That's another one. Yeah. Uh, yeah, we get saved at this point in our life. We either save ourselves, or we're saved by something else, or we're hoping that. Why? There's a correlation between 12th house and in institutions, like where they become very, yeah, it's our more, um, well, you get locked up and then you're just like, all about it. But yeah, that's where everything's all encompassing. Our institutions of learning and of higher knowledge are no, like prison institution, environmental. Yeah, our institutions related to confinement. And it, the broader, the broader meaning of our institutions, which is the things that we put our faith in as human beings. The institution of marriage, the institution of McDonald's, the institution of government. These different things that as a culture, it's, it's like the standbys that we all rely on. So they're all lumped together in in Pisces in the broader sense. But yeah, we're in, we're dealing with institutions of knowledge and learning specifically, and institutions of law in Sagittarius as well.

Travis, I feel like Sag is, you know, the leap of faith. And then Capricorn is the wall. Yeah, like smacks you in the face. The inevitable, just harsh reality of the world and life that we live in. The unavoidable truths. You know, you're leaping from Sags and you're just like, filled with inspiration and hope. And you're like, infinite space, infinite possibility. It's all going. Are they like the warden? They're like rewarded. And then you get to Capricorn and it's like, boom. Yeah, you gotta deal with it. You know, we'll talk about that. Let's take a pee break and then we'll come back. We'll pick up. Nobody. Oh, oh, yeah. Hmm. You know, I'm still working on it. Okay. Most of us back. Looks like a few of us are. Okay, cool. Yeah. You mentioned being a military kid. Were you born overseas? Spain. Yeah. Torahon. Yep. Torahon, Pourahon, Spain. Yeah, near Madrid. That's why a lot of people, they try to pull up my birth chart and they use some common place and they can never get it right. Yeah. I have kind of a similar situation. I was born in Bahrain, this little island between Saudi Arabia, um, and Iran. And technically, I was born in a city named Diwali, but depending on which, uh, which website you're using, some of them don't have that city. So I'll use my. Oh, that's that one too. Guys, me crazy. Everybody's got a black cat. Say hi, boy. Oh, you have a tuxedo cat? I love him. Yeah, she's got like a little white spot like on her belly and then on her throat, but she's mostly black. She's my favorite. Spot for black cats because they have a bad reputation. Yeah, she adopted me. I did not plan to become a cat owner, but she adopted me. So I didn't really have much say in it. Cats are funny. If they don't like where they are, I'll just go somewhere else. Well, I, I suspect they, I saved her from sort of an abusive environment. Wonderful.

So let's talk about Capricorn. This is when we are getting to retirement age, when we've reached really, yeah, grumpy old man. The need for success, for status, is what's behind Capricorn. And this is when we mature to the peak of our career. So this is when we're on top of the world, and there ain't no place to go but down at that point, because we are continuing to age. So we've reached the culmination of our career at this point. And it's around 60 years old that, uh, you know, from 60 to 70 years old, that we're in that Capricorn phase of life. So we're starting to think about retiring. We haven't retired quite yet, but that phase of life, that's in the Aquarius phase, but we're thinking about packing it in at that point in our life. So, um, this is when we have had all the opportunities that we're going to have to really make something of ourself. And when we really evaluate ourselves as, uh, you know, a job well done or not, depending on the choices that we've made. So there's a, a concreteness. Like, this is what I've grown up to be at that phase of our life. We're generally not the most teachable at that point in our life. Oh, we've become so. If we've aired on the open, exploratory side of Sagittarius, and that point, you know, if we've been asking, instead of saying, "I know, and let me teach you what I already know." If we've been continuing to be to ask and be curious, we have a good chance of still being teachable or flexible in that Capricorn phase of life. A lot of people don't get there. They air on the side where they've really just sort of like become a stodgy old old person. So I feel like Capricorn, though, is the most different between men and women. In Cancer, especially social roles, so much different. Yeah, because man, you know, at this phase of life, and in traditional society, this phase of life is when, you know, men are reaching the peak of their career. And where women are reaching the peak of their domestic career. We've, you know, come to the point where we're not, so if they even have it in the future, if they've had a domestic career. But going into the future, we're not so concerned with being accepted anymore. That's the, the Uranian phase of things. We've been working on that, building that, and now we've got it in that Capricorn phase of life. And a lot of times, it's very anticlimactic. A lot of time, reaching the peak, we find just not brought us what we were looking for or what we thought it was going to be. That old adage, "It's lonely at the top." True. Oftentimes, it's very true. So this is when a lot of people realize what they've worked for and put all their energy into is hollow. It's not what they wanted after all. And this is, uh, for other people, the time in their life when they can really start, if they have been working on a life that was their own choosing and that, you know, was fulfilling and, and if they weren't just checking on the box off the boxes, then they can decide they're going to do something different. They can pivot. They can add to their life. They aren't so stuck in that frame of, "This is what I've been working for, and so this is what I am." So coming to a point of the top of the hill, because this is the top of the hill that we've been going up towards through the entire chart, exerting energy to get to the top. And then we get to go downhill. That's the Aquarian phase of life. That's retirement. So that's when we start to not care anymore what people think or what they want from us. It's about our time. We're like, "I've worked for this, and I deserve this time to enjoy myself and to make my own decisions and go my own way." So we're concerned with more being and continuing in our traditional stage in Capricorn, but we're more concerned with breaking out of that traditional stage when we get to Aquarius. Does anybody have any comments or insights about that Capricorn phase of life? I just feel like all the time. Oh, I was just going to say, I just feel like I lived there all the time. Being a Capricorn rising, like even my 20s, everything you just described about like what we will amount to be and, you know, what we've worked for and all of. I, like, maybe it's because I'm in my first act of return, but I'm already thinking, like, what have I already done with my life? Why am I like not exactly where I thought I would be? And people are looking at me like, you're 28, what is wrong with you? And I'm like, you don't understand. We're always running out of time when we're Saturn heavy. Always running out of. Yes.

Travis, you had something. I think of, uh, David Bowie, you know, he's like quintessential Capricorn. He's got Sun and Mars in Capricorn. And, you know, he lives this just immaculate career as a musician. He's just like universally respected. And then after he realizes that he's going to die, you know, he puts out this album called Blackstar, where he just kind of trashes all of it. Trashes the fame, trashes everything that he's worked towards that used to be so important to him. You know, and he really, like, kind of rebels against that, like, image of being like a star. And like, creates these just bizarre music videos, just really avant-garde music. And this is like the last moment of his life where nothing matters anymore. So I feel like he kind of embodied that because I think the Capricorn, he's very conscious of that reputation type thing, you know? So I feel like stepping into that Aquarian mode where there's nothing left to lose, he was able to have a Star of David in his chart. I think I think he had this, like, the Star of David was his heart. Yeah, I read a little bit about him. Yeah, there must have been something Uranian in him all along too, the way he didn't feel the need to be in a box or didn't want to be placed. Yes, there was something, uh, Uranian in him all along that I think in the end probably won out over the Capricorn. Yeah, he had an Aquarius rising. So. Oh, so the whole frame of life was very much Uranian. So yeah, emotionally Capricorn, like other, like internally Capricorn, I feel like they're so not as hardcore as they want everyone thinks. They're very, they just want security. Also, they just want love. And they're very, they're very sweet. I agree. Except the women that you get close to them, and they will, it will get you. I've had that. Every Capricorn woman I've ever known has, like, no, they're mean. Oh my god. They don't hold. They're the best friend you'll ever have. But if you fall in love with them, you're done. Yeah, it's over. Our Capricorns through and through. December 24th. And they, my mom and my stepdad went to go visit. They visited her when she was, because she lives in Vegas. And he said, you know, if I was her age, I'd want to date her. And my mom's like, we have the same. Oh my god. He's like, I like her, dude. I'm just like, there's so many commonalities between my mom and my best friend. And I'm like, I'm a glutton for punishment because my mom and I didn't get along when I was growing up, but we, we have a wonderful relationship now. But I had, like, my best friend of like 20 years. Like, there's just interesting. They're very serious, but they're very, very, very sweet. And harsh truths, they're the best. Like stability, they're supported and making sure what you need. They work and provide well, like a strict parent, you know? So strict, but they want you to do well. They do care about you, but it's not going to be easy. No. So yeah, we're all developing that, uh, I think that capacity to to stand up and say, "This is where I am, and I am, and what I've done, and receive the consequences for that." And we get to enjoy, uh, the consequences for that in Aquarius. That's just the retirement stage of life, where we are at about 70 to 80 years old, 65, 70. Like dementia, Alzheimer's, like stubborn. Well, it's because we can get away with anything in that phase of life. We don't hold any old people's feet to the fire. I mean, how often do I mean, we can even have like, you know, an old racist guy standing on the lawn like screaming racist stuff. You're like, "Oh, that's, that's just the racist guy down the street." But you, in your 20s, you'd do that, somebody called the cop, son. You're not going to get away with it. Yeah. So away with all kinds of stuff like a toddler, but a group people. Well, that's that crazy old person. Like, so we pushed the others, like regressing. There can be, they can't get to the top. We, well, depending on how we've, we've grown. See, we can regress and just become that angry national. Let's use the example of the old racist person. They're standing on their lawn being a jerk. They've not come to a place of acceptance. They're advertising their weakness, you could say. So that, uh, that's growing into a phase where we're like, "I get to be whatever I am, and I'm this old nasty guy. If your ball falls in my yard, I'm gonna go out there with a screwdriver and pop it." So we can develop into that where we, we just decide, you know, "I'll be whatever I'm going to be." And that could be really good. A lot of people develop into, uh, a version of themselves where we're like, "Okay, you know what? I don't need the acceptance of other people. I've learned enough about myself. I'm just gonna go my own way." And it's not so extreme that they're causing problems, but yet they feel like they get to choose their own life. They get to do their own thing. So we get into our freakiness in that Aquarian stage of life. It's their permission to let our freak flag fly and let everybody see what that is and and to be proud of it. And somebody's more damaging than others at that phase of life. Some are are harmless, they're fun, we want to be around them. And other people, they've solidified into a version of themselves that is so extreme and so nasty that it's just impenetrable. Yeah. My, I took care of my grandma, um, the last few years of her life, and she did have Alzheimer's. So she, she kind of did like, go into this like childlike version of herself. But it was fun with her. Like, she, she loved to dance. So she would be dancing to stuff that she probably never would have danced to before. Like, I put on Nicki Minaj, and she would not care. Um, and then she would be really sassy and funny. Like, I, I remember before the Alzheimer's like fully kicked in, I, I was like doing this multi-level marketing thing, and my upline came to visit. And she said, in front of the whole family and my grandpa, "Oh, you're cute." So like, you know, there she was just like a very bubbly person. Yeah, she got, she's like laughing. Yeah. So that's like an innocence, kind of back to as a kid when you could, you could get away with saying whatever, and it was just real. You didn't know any better. You're just saying what you felt, and not with a filter. Yeah, everybody thought it was hilarious. Like, my grandpa didn't care. The family didn't care. We all thought it was hilarious. Right, right. But somebody in their 40s tries to pull that, and there's going to be a consequence. So, you know, we can, we can get away with it when we're in that eccentric phase because people just don't have the same expectations of us as they for somebody who's younger. Okay. I remember once my stepdad and I were like play fighting, and shoot, like she's Mexican, so she would revert back to Spanish. So she would just be like, [Laughter] Cute. Yeah. Yeah, I think we all grow up into our different version of our freaky self. Yeah, hopefully we are, you know, exploring what it is to be our own version of eccentric, that our own version of, you know, just not following the crowd. So we develop, uh, yeah, we develop into somebody who is able to go their own way at that point in their life, or develop into somebody that is so extreme in their characteristics that they go their own way out of default, meaning nobody wants anything to do with them. So, well, because we're an angry old person, or somebody who, you know, thinks that they have a right to say things or do things that, you know, are just hurtful and not helpful to other people. And sometimes I feel like it's not even out of their, like, their authentic belief. It's just because they want to be opposite. That can happen. Whatever they can do to not even if, you know, that they don't believe that, they'll do it anyway. It seems like I'm not. Well, we can see that, especially with hard aspects from Uranus to inner planets, because especially the Sun or Mars, because there's this idea of oneself as the iconoclast, or as the person who goes against the grain. So it just makes for an automatically contrary personality when we, we have that. And that can definitely crystallize and get worse in the Aquarian stage of life. Okay, we've just decided, you know, "This is what I am, and this is what I'm going to be, and let the consequences fall where they may." And that can be very good. It can also be very bad. It depends on what it is you've decided you're going to be. That Mars square Uranus means I'm going to be that pity old lady just out in the street yelling at me. Maybe not. Maybe you'll go the other direction. You'll become so, uh, free and unfettered in your life that you will, you know, be that, that old lady who is, you can be gotten along with, but you can't push her. You can't push her. And you'll be the old lady that shows up at the protest first and gives permission for all the young people with my lawn chair and stuff. Um, I feel like, uh, at that stage, a person is probably really difficult to deceive. You know, I think that you get, you go around the block a couple of times. And I just, I've always associated Aquarius with Aquarius with this kind of dazzling clarity. And I think that that clarity in and of itself can be illusory if it's not bounded, like, kind of an honest representation of something. I'll use it again. But I also think that there's this potential for being beyond deception. You know, like you become this crotchety old person and you, like, you see a political figure and you're like, "I've seen this before." You know, you can't be tied into the collective, you know, emotions because you're just over it, you know, like you've been around the block too many times to like fall for it, you know? Absolutely. Aquarius is inherently skeptical. It's, it's our skepticism. Yes, it's science. Aquarius, it's, it's asking questions. It's things, things are never just settled. And look at science. Science is inherently unstable because it always seeks to prove itself wrong. It's always, it's almost like the science that they don't, it just depends on what they want to believe. Like they're not open as much. Do you know what I'm saying? They don't, they're still gonna believe what they want. There can be that side. Yes, that's when we are not teachable. That's when we've decided that we are so right that we're not reachable at that point. And you can see that in certain political movements where people can decide, you know, "I'm so morally correct that, you know, I'm unreachable or I'm unteachable." And it, it really doesn't have the effect that they're looking for, you know, the other side never sees them as so wonderful that they want to be like them. They're always resentful. So we can become, uh, beyond reason, where we can become extremely reasonable. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, like, there's a potential for tolerance at that age because nothing shocks you anymore. You know, for incredible intolerance. We go from one or the other because it can be like that neighbor that we grew up next to who had, he was horrible. We used to call him, uh, it was like "Crazy Joe and his barren wife" because they didn't have any kids. So we had to make up a name for him, right? "Crazy Joe and his barren wife." My my brothers could not even play in the front yard because this guy, in this Aquarian stage of life, always had a problem with everything they did. And if their ball went on his porch, he went over with a screwdriver and popped it. So we can either be that old person, or we could be the old person who, when the ball falls in our yard, we kick it back to the kid. Yeah, maybe we even play the game for a minute or two. My, I think a counter, or not a counter example, but from my own personal life, my grandpa, you know, he was 75 when he met my partner. You know, and he was from an age when accepting gay people was like not even considered. You know, but he was at this stage of life to raise like, "No, I don't understand, but there's there's people of all different types out there. And I know I love you, Travis, and I know that, you know, what you're doing." So he was able to kind of give us the space to to acknowledge and understand. And then he got to know Jacob, my partner, and, you know, could see like, "Oh, okay, this is, you know, he treated him like like anybody else. There was no, there was no like otherness to it." Because he was so settled within himself, so comfortable within himself, that it was like, "Whatever, you know, like, what's the big deal here?" Perfect. Perfect. I'm kind of noticing like a theme with each stage of life. It's like an opportunity for growth and evolution of yourself. And it's, and with like the chart, it's like, "Oh, there's this placement and I'm doomed for this forever." But it's like, no, you have a choice. There's this opportunity. There's this duality. You can either go this way or this way, and either going to benefit you or not. So there's the person who's, and I don't know if it's like saying you're on like a different level, but how you're explaining your grandfather, you know, coming from that age of not accepting that, but, you know, being in that time period in his life where he's like, "I'm comfortable with myself. I'm secure with myself. And this makes my grandson happy. Why would I be upset about that?" Right. And so it's like, it's really interesting seeing that in each stage of life and like thinking about all the people that have gone through my life. And my grandmother passed away in January. And she did the same thing. I, I have all these tattoos, and I'd show her and she's like, "That's nice to me, huh? But I don't get it. As long as you're happy, it's okay." And it's just like, it's really interesting to to see how they've evolved and also setting an example for other people too. Yeah, absolutely.

So my boyfriend has Sun and Moon in Aquarius with a Leo ascendant. So, and Leo is the opposite of first, yes, right? And it's the strangest personality because it's, you see him wanting the attention and wanting the recognition, but he, the Aquarius is telling him that that's not appropriate. Like he just, he knows it. He's so, I don't even know what the word is, like he's on his own pedestal, very, very high. But Leo won't allow him to express it. So he's just very internalized. And it's just interesting to see because I have Leo ascendant also an Aquarius moon. So I, just my weirdness flies. He won't let it out. And it's frustrating because I'm like, "Just, just do it. Like, I don't, you don't need to hide anything. Stop doing this." So he's operating on two different levels. Yes, they're in conflict. That can happen with, uh, uh, discordant aspects like that. Absolutely. Yeah, they come off as misun. I don't think it's so much alien, like everybody says they're weird or aloof. They just, they're misunderstood. I feel like that could be absolutely, because we have to look at the, let's look at the archetype of the inventor that is an Aquarian. They're ahead of their time. Let's look at, you know, the visionary. They're ahead of their time. Yeah, because they don't fit in. They are somewhere ahead of the rest of us. There is something alien about them. There is something foreign about them. They aren't of us. We will become intimidating in a way. It's a little scary for people because they don't like, "I don't even know what that is." Yeah, it is something that, it's, you know, uh, it's, it's, it's like a thing rather than a being. We're dealing with, you know, regarding people more as a thing, as an object. Objectivity is Aquarian. We develop our objectivity at this point of our life. And some of us develop it a lot sooner because Aquarius is really the human need for transcendence, I mean, for insight, for the bolt of lightning that leads and the understanding of everything in Pisces. So if we're looking at the chart as stages of human growth that lead to the potential for enlightenment, enlightenment happens in Aquarius. The consequence of that leads to Pisces, and we have the merging of everything, the transcendence of it all. So Nirvana is a, an Aquarian thing. We come to that point of realizing it. And say, Samadhi is probably a Piscean thing.

So curious, um, would like Uranus or Neptune in the sixth house be, and indicative of say something like ADHD or Mercury retrograde? I would have to see more than that to see, um, we can see overacting. Yes, we can see anxiety. We can see overactive self-image. We can see overactive nervous system in different ways, but definitely having something in the sixth house is going to point to that or contribute to it. My boyfriend has Pisces or Sun and Moon, Aquarius in the sixth house. Very, very. A lot on your hands. Something to ask. Oh, I can't hear you. There we go. There we go. Oh, no, there we go. And no, just one question. I was wondering now for a couple of minutes, um, when you were explaining the idea of these strange old people that kind of don't care about others' attention or whatsoever, but the Aquarius energy also is about community. This is what I understood. So, and now try to get this together. I don't understand is how this can be if you're just at this age and the idea should be also to be that objective to serve the community in some way, maybe in a visionary way or being outstanding or different or whatsoever, but with the main idea to serve the community. And this is what I don't get now, how this, uh, gets along. Yes, I'm glad you brought that up. That is a big part of Aquarius that we haven't talked about because at this stage of life, we have the time now that we're retired. We have the time and the resources to volunteer. We have the time and the resources to do for others, to get involved in civic activities or, um, social activities. So there is a strong, uh, social component. There's a social and a political component to both Uranus and to Jupiter and to Sagittarius. They're both necessarily political signs. And in Aquarius, there is that, that love of other. There's a humanitarian in us because we do not have expectations that others should be like us. We are more willing to be part of the group. And part of being the group is to realize your own individuality. We do that before we join the group because now we just don't mesh in and meld. We bring our note, our certain note to the symphony. The symphony isn't just one harmonizing note. It's made up of all these different notes that together create this beautiful sound and this harmony. So if we are evolving instead of devolving, and we get to that Aquarian stage, we are happy to be involved with any number of different people. We're happy to allow people who in our past maybe would have excluded. We're happy to include them. So using Travis's grandfather as an example, say maybe in the 50s, he wouldn't have had anything to do with a gay person. You know, he would have thought, "Oh, I don't want to come near me, I might catch their gayness." But now, in this day, that's what I say. That's the way it is. This is the way it is. You know, people are gay. That's okay. People are allowed to be gay. So he sees it differently. So it allows community to develop. It allows us to make broad connections when we've let go of our standard of behavior. The standard is in Capricorn. See, we have to come to a place in Capricorn when we realize our life is ours. If we've been working our life away for approval or to please the voice of our parents, or because we have been a slave to a life of "shoulds," that's when we end up very unhappy and hollow. And we're like, "What the hell have I been doing all my life? My life is almost over and I haven't enjoyed it. This has not been my life." And then we shatter that. So I'm not doing this anymore. I'm gonna be of my own making. We shatter that mold that we've been working into all our lives. And that's gonna get that shattering Aquarian experience. Like, "I'm just gonna leave all this behind. I'm gonna retire from all of this." Or I'm gonna shift my life. Or I'm just gonna sell my business and I'm gonna go join the Peace Corps. We do things at that point that are freeing for us. Part of being freed is freeing other people. Other people have the freedom to get to be themselves. So Aquarius is an effective, eclectic system of people. It's not like in Gemini where everybody is near us. It's everybody within our broad world community. So we become tolerant at that stage of our life because we've grown out of a lot of our prejudices, or we've devolved and we've grown into our prejudices, and we are so unreachable and so self-righteous that we're just horrible and insufferable. So there is a tolerance in a community with Aquarius, and a lot of that has to do with the ability to allow other people to be as they are, to allow them to be their own individual selves. So like being free and with being free, just teaching this to others. So it's not the idea to be free, others are free, right? But this is really different from caring for one another. This is not the idea of really care for someone else. Like, like in a community, it's not community for me is always an understanding of to care for one another, to look what that the other one is fine, to see, I don't know, that the whole community is working. And that's not Aquarius, is it? It's not. It's community, but anyway, it's not that. I feel like, dude, there's something underneath there wanting to bring community together. There's something beneath that, and it's not care. Like, I don't know. Community. So the internet is Aquarius. The internet itself is not a feeling thing, but it does, it's a science thing. It's like, it's really scary. Yeah, and it's brought our consciousness together. And it has had two different potentials: the potential to make us all really stupid, or because particularly all of our paranoias, or the potential for making us really smart. I mean, do you remember the card catalog we all had to go to in the 80s? Maybe nobody here does. I remember the card count. Our fingertips, and it's free. So this potential for free information has really furthered our potentially our social progress, potentially our social destruction. Sorry. All right. Are you a Leo? Me? Yeah. Not me. No, I'm Aries, but view horizon rising and Leo moon, Leo rising. I've always, I've always liked like to use Leo as a way to understand Aquarius. Like Leo is presence and like, um, expression. Like Leo is the sun. Aquarius is the eye of the storm. It's absence. It's space. It's, you know, the, it's the potential for other things to exist. And like, it's in the midst of, but not belonging to anything. It's right in the eye of the storm, but it's not the storm. So there is that kind of inherent kind of like nuclear, like it's a reaction that's going to come. There's an inherent contradiction in Aquarius that is hard for fire people to really craft. Yes, it's really, really hard for me. Yes, I'm all about just pure being, you know, and just essential presence. And when I meet Aquarian people, there is absence there. There's this, this kind of emptiness that is, I can't fathom it because that's just not me, you know? But, but I think the misconception is that, you know, it's unfeeling. I mean, I, I think all your skills, it just knows how to detach from the feeling. Right. There's a caring. There's a, there's a care and a concern that's so broadened because the scope of what, at its highest function, the scope of what Aquarius is considering and and able to hold space for is so, um, far spanned out that it can feel cold and detached and aloof. But that's where we live. Like, I think it's a broader empathy. That, it's like the broadest empathy, right? That's so much that you can't even express it. It's, yes, it's not personal. It's beyond that. It's like you can see the entirety of a situation. So we could even say that somebody who is, here's an extreme example, we could say somebody who is a sociopath or psychopath, who does not have the capacity to have feelings or emotions, that the way that they see and interpret people, this would be a bit of a mind here. The way that they see and interpret people and situations is completely empathetic. [Music] It's like the, because they understand exactly who the other person is. They're not looking at it through the lens of their own self or their feeling their subjectivity. So in this, uh, odd way, someone who has no empathy can have the ultimate empathy. Yeah, I mean, they are like totally connected to. They are their shadow. Hmm. Well, I think it depends on the person with what they're coming from. I don't know that it's, yeah, I don't know that someone who's genuinely sociopathic because of their. I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about empathy through emotions. I'm talking about empathy through only the sense of being able to understand exactly the other person where they're coming from. But don't you think that in that case, there's actually there's something inherently contradictory to that? Because since they don't get, they don't have the ability to. Because so, yes, illustrate the contradiction that happens here. So they're misleading. They can play out the emotions as like a scenario, but they don't relate. You know, like there's that, there's that. And then the interactions become transactional also. They're like seeing it instead of feeling it. That can happen. That could happen. So we, we pretend. We ideally want the ability to see the broad picture and to act on that broad picture with our humanity. Humanity is an Aquarian thing. It's all of humanity. We either lose our humanity or we ultimately become in contact with it. So we can use, like the example of say, an archetypal Eastern guru, enlightened individual. Let's look at somebody like that who, you know, sits in, you know, on their couch in their loincloth and disperses their wisdom. They have a very detached way about them. You cannot manipulate someone like that. You can come in with your sob story and your need for compassion, and they're going to tell you something that in some cases feels very cold and compassionless because the truth hurts. Because they will tell you the truth. Yeah, they care enough to actually be able to give them to you. Do that. Yes, it's not coming through something personal. Alex, and I think also, I'm an Aquarius, and I think it can be sort of like a need for liberation at any cost because there's just, it's only like an intellectual understanding of this is how our society should be in order for all of us all to be free or to be happier, you know? So it's like, I mean, like I'm a Cancer moon, so I don't consider myself a sociopath or anything, but it's like a thing of, "Do I wish Jeff Bezos was dead so he could distribute all of his money to everyone on Earth?" A little bit. But also, I don't, I like, I would never wish death on anyone. But there's that part of me that's kind of like, "He should be dead so we could take." I understand that. You know what I mean? Yeah, I understand the conflict there. Absolutely. It's what is good for the individual versus those versus what is going on. On a side note, you said something about your Uranus aspecting ascendant where the nerves are concerned, like your nervous system. And I have square ascendant Uranus, and like I, like my fingers and my toes, like, and it's kind of recent, but they're numb. Like I found this. That's common. People have a lot of the Uranian, uh, energy and personality. Right. I also have neuropathy. Oh my god.

It's crazy, like you need to get to a chiropractor. Somebody who can work on your nervous system. That is what we'll get. A chiropractor can do that. Chiropractors work on the nervous system. Yeah, because I have the stiff upper lip. Leo body, like so. Okay, I have Uranus and conjunct the Ascendant. Oh boy, what's that? You're not where are ya? I've, I've been, uh, pretty politically active in the past, and I will bet, I will bet a lot of protests. That's stirring up some trouble. I have Uranus on the Ascendant, and I have seizures. Oh yeah, my, my boss's wife has the same. Very interesting. Yeah, the Uranus itself is the nervous system in its entirety. Mercury is the messages that are relayed within that, but Uranus is the entire system together. So look at it like the entire human system, all of the humans and all of the countries in the entire human system. That is the nervous system of the world. Is how would you say Mercury in conjunct Uranus? That's a rough one. Um, we, uh, are wrestling with telling our opinions, usually in situations that are going to cause us some trouble, but they're very true. People just tend to say what it is that they're thinking, and they need to really temper their truth with what is going to be accepted or appropriate. We need to ask ourselves, doing with the consequence for being right, and probably right, but do I want the consequence? And sometimes we may not want to, uh, but that is a, uh, uh, something where we're usually dealing with an entire huge amount of tax and on the, uh, on the nervous system. So yeah, um, sorry, uh, getting back to like Aquarius and I thought that Alex's comment on like freedom is, um, really like on point because I have Mars in Aquarius and there is this like, uh, that's square Pluto too. So it is like, you can't control me, you know, like I'm gonna do whatever I want to do. And I think that like, kind of, um, choosing to be human, like choosing to cultivate your humanity and to cultivate your, your empathy and to learn to be cooperative and to sacrifice your freedom, like to compromise freedom for the sake of your one. Yes, yes, that's so much here. Yeah, that's like, that's for Aquarian placements, that's like, that's everything, you know, because that's all we have is our freedom. That's all we have is our ability to, to say no, you know, I'm going to do what I want to do and be like, okay, well, I'm going to go along with what you say just to give you space so that you can have freedom. That kind of selflessness. And I don't obviously have not cultivated that, but I think we all, we all have that opportunity. That that lesson is presented to us to, to be able to, yeah, cooperate and live with others and realize that the quality of my personal expression impacts the people around me, and the people around me impact the quality of my personal expression. You can't, we, we are not in isolation. So it's, it's very much like, you know, what I put out there personally, I'm going to get a lot of that back. And do I want to live in that kind of world? So be the change that you want to see. That's the motto, I think, for for Aquarius. Kenya, I had two thoughts. One is also the contradiction or kind of the paradoxical quality to Uranus of like, if Uranus is, um, you know, coming through that kind of higher octave of Leo lens where it's more in, in the hubris of that of what that can bring, it can have this like incredible actual, like, um, lack of awareness of how it's coming off, um, to the point where it can be so rude and so just like, um, brash in this kind of cold way. But it also does have the ability to have like, kind of this ultimate clarity and awareness. Yes. And so it's, it's such a, like, a confusing thing to experience both, like, you know, dealing with someone who's maybe really rainy, and especially if it's aspecting like the sun or the Ascendant. I have both going on actually. I have the square to my sun, and it's on my Ascendant. But like my boyfriend has an Aquarius. I feel like that square for me is like, I'll have these, especially maybe even being a Libra, I'll have these moments where I feel such a prevailing sense of clarity of self and like, you know, all facets of self. It'll just kind of come into, to laser focus, you know, depending on how it's triggered or how it's activated. But then there are times where I can be completely unaware of like, oh, I just said something that was really offensive. You know, it's just like, it's a really interesting, um, it is dichotomy to navigate. I love the lack of filter. I love those kind of people. Just anything like, I want people to say what they feel at the time they feel it without a sugarcoat. I mean, that's a real person. I love that. I think people have a lot of Pluto and a lot of Uranus in them. Do appreciate that because it makes them feel safe. Like if your cards are on the table, you know, I'm saying? But if your cards are not, like if we have a lot of Pisces or Neptune in the, in the personality, we can definitely not show our cards. Or some Mars in Scorpio. Like, no, I feel that way as a fire person. It's like, just be honest. You know, don't sugarcoat it. Don't beat around the bush. Be frank. I can take it. I'm going to be honest with you too. Sometimes, sometimes the deception when you're dealing with Neptunian energy is not even intentional. Oh, so they don't even know they're doing it because they wouldn't describe themselves as manipulative. No. I also have Neptune with Uranus on the Ascendant, and so both are squaring my sun, actually. They're involved in like a really fun T-square. So Mars is like opposite the Uranus and Neptune squaring the sun, and then the sun squares like, and they're all like on the angles. It's like Ascendant, Descendant. Really fun stuff. Like the vacillation between like hyper awareness and like hyper clarity. What is absolutely like, um, empirically true and factual. And then, you know, going into this space of, well, is that actually an illusion? Or is that actually who I am? Or is that actually, am I actually saying things clearly? But then even beyond that, I think when they're all those energies are working together, it's actually an ability to see even beyond, you know, the tangible or what we, what we in our human logic would understand as empirically, like, you know, true. And to actually see a deeper truth beyond that. Um, yes. So you're describing the conjunction between Neptune and Uranus. Exactly right. Struggle with. I had a question about the concept of freedom, um, because Sagittarius obviously deals a lot with freedom, as well as Aquarius. These are, in my mind, the two signs most concerned with liberation. How would you describe the discernment between how those two archetypes go about achieving liberation? Well, I would say more freedom and exploration, not so much liberation for Sagittarius. I think liberation is more specific to Aquarius. But freedom and excitement, uh, vivaciousness, enjoyment, the kind of unbridled freedom thing. Yes, very much so. Um, you know, the need for optimism. Optimism means we feel good. That is a Sagittarian thing. The optimism in Aquarius comes more from not seeing the bright side, but seeing all sides that we have there. Travis, I can definitely corroborate everything that Jewel is saying. Like, that's spot on because I have Sag on my feminine half with my moon. So there's this need to kind of like jump into some sort of cosmic truth that is like all-enveloping and just immediate, something that a world that I can exist in that is just apparently good and just absolutely accessible. And then my masculine Aquarian, Aquarian half is like, step away from everything. Step away from all control. You know, like, deny my everything. Like, you know, I almost feel like I want to rebel against astrology. It's like, and that is like such a contradiction in itself. Is like, do I want to do that? Because I have a Mars in Aquarius, you know, like, I, I have no Aquarius. It's a really interesting placement. It's, I've had some very, um, interesting relationships where I'm always kind of rebelling and they're like restricting me, and I'm just like, why do I keep attracting these people? I just want to be free to do what I want. Is it aspecting Saturn? I have Saturn rules my seventh house. Yeah. So Mars in Aquarius in the seventh. So that's the urge to merge with the need to be free. And it's on zero degrees. And it's really weird. It's like, I've always kind of been curious about, like, I've learned a lot, um, but it's just, it's like bungee jumping. Mars in the seventh is notorious for attracting difficult partners to us. Oh, yeah. You know, they've all been difficult, um, to be quite frank with you. And my son's father, um, my son is a Sagittarius, um, he's November 28th. And I was so worried that he was going to become a Scorpio because I was like, I can't. His dad's Scorpio. His dad's all Scorpio. I don't know. His, his time of birth. He's being nice to me now, so hopefully I can get that sometime soon. But I was so worried to have two Scorpios. I was like, I don't think I can handle that heaviness. Yeah. But he, he's, uh, my, my son, he's, so I always explain, he's the child of joy. He just brings joy wherever he goes. And so I think that's helped the evolution of his father. Um, but it's just, yeah, it's, it's a, the whole need to be free and independent, but I like the comfort of that. But it's like, I don't want to be restricted. But then there's the Cavaliers will do away with joy, will do away with anything recognizable for the sake of freedom. Like that's what I was talking about. I'll leave anybody. I'll leave anything and just buy this ghost, just step into the outside block button. That's been a fun, that's been a fun button. I feel like I can finish the archetype because I kind of have the same effects because I have like the Moon in Pisces to square Saturn in Sagittarius. Ah, uh-huh. Yeah. Interesting. So Pisces, so Aquarius is the freedom of, you know, like for the collective. So what is Pisces also free? I kind of look at, but not the collective. Is it like of spirituality? Of, yeah, not even people, but of our, of everything, our universe? Yeah, that's everything. It's everything that is contained within archetypal thinking and the mysteries that are without, that are that are outside of it. Because anything that we can conceptualize and we can think, that is part of archetypal thinking. We do not know what's outside of that. Any idea that we have that is of the human mind, that it describes more what it is to be human, the way that we think, can't tell us anything other than our genetic endowment. What is the confines of that? Because a giraffe thinks the way a giraffe thinks, right? A dolphin thinks the way a dolphin thinks, right? A human thinks the way a human thinks. We can't know anything outside of our genetic gift, our genetic endowment. So this is where we get to Pisces, where everything is a big blob. It's, it's the biggest mysteries of the universe. It's all the unknowns. It's what lies outside of archetypal thinking. So we come to that Pisces stage of human development. This is the end of life. This is when we start to let go. This is when we start to come to terms with the way things really are, and we start to accept that there will be an end, and that, um, there's grief involved in that Pisces stage of life. So this is when we accept things as they are. We really are past having any agenda and starting to come to realize that there is an end to everything. There's a natural process to life and death, that life is a part of death. I'm sorry, death is a part of life. And if we're looking at all things above mirroring all things below, then we could also say that if death is a part of life, then life must be a part of death. Do you think that Pisces is also what comes after death? If there is an after, it is what comes after it. If, but the thing is, is there's two sides to pot to Pisces in that. And we'll talk about this more in the next lesson extensively because we're talking about the two sides of each signs in the, in the next lesson. We either have complete confusion. So it's like, we look at a bank of fog, and whatever is reflected on that fog, we're projecting onto that fog, is reflected back to us. So that can be our ultimate idea of what is. Or we can have ultimate clarity. We're the father, they're like the Sean, like the oldest member of the tribe, just, yeah, has come. Yes, who's come to, I would say, like, like the beginning of it all, or the, the genesis of it all. The genesis of everything comes in with Pisces. So we can either come to see things as they are, and that is completely devoid of self-image. See things as they are, just what is it in itself? Not what does it say about me? What do I need it to be? What are my ideas about it? Just what is it in itself? That is something that we can only know if we are not looking at life through the lens of me and through the lens of personalization. Just looking at things as they actually are. That takes some life experience because we're born, and all we know is me. And then we die, and all we know, hopefully, is we. There's this connectivity that happens there. But we cannot know what it is because whatever it is is outside conceptual archetypal thinking. So that's the great equalizer, Pisces, the great equalizer. It seems like with all that, just with all that knowledge, and they seem like the most vulnerable of all of them. And you would think that it would be the most powerful. They are. There's two sides. The powerful side comes through gaining clarity. The vulnerable side, we keep in action through escapism and through idealism and wanting to see things as we want to see them. We have to desire to see things as we, as they are, if we're going to get to the truth of what actually is. I feel like, sorry, I'm Kenya. I didn't mean to cut you off. It's okay. No, go ahead. You had an insight. Yeah, I'm just, I'm, I'm pondering the, um, the idea of, well, the truth of, we can't know anything beyond, you know, what's in the realm of our human mind to label and comprehend and discern, you know, the way we use our, the way we use our, our human mind, our human logic. But I've always felt that there's a way to know or understand. It's like, if you're trying to look, I guess maybe I'm echoing some of what you're saying, but I guess I'm also trying to expand upon it. Like, if you're trying to look at the truth or the all or, you know, the unknown or whatever, through the lens of ration and reason, you know, trying to use your mercurial way of thinking, or you, you know what I'm saying? Of course, you won't understand it. If you're trying to put it into scientific terms or figure out how to organize it or or bring it into order, because that's what humans do. That's that's what the ego does. It tries to order and configure things in a way that we can make sense of it. But if, if you can't, if you can embrace the part of your psyche that is there, that is beyond that part of the, you know, our, our egoic mind, there is a deeper level of understanding that you can hold. And it's not that you're like, you have a definition in the way that we seek to have definition of what it is, but there's a deeper resonance and an understanding and actually, I think an ability to, um, channel that and bring that through, maybe bring some of that through, you know, physical realm or physical experience, while understanding that you cannot, you cannot seek to understand it or confine it to strictly physical, tangible, right means of life. Does that make sense? Jesus Christ was Pisces, right? Jesus was Pisces. Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's what they, yeah, the theory. But that's like the archetype of what Pisces is. Is that the age of Pisces? That person that takes the pain of everyone and just frees them? Well, yeah, there's a theory that he was actually born in the spring. It's Virgo. Uh, well, there's, well, if he, if that life is a real person, there's a lot. Yeah, because like the December 25th date was actually stolen from paganism. Yeah, most things are. Mostly, most people don't realize what it is from an based paganism. The birth of the sun three days after the winter solstice. It's, it's, it's everything. Every religion was stolen from, like, it's, it's crazy. It's true. It's true. Most people don't understand the origins of their own belief systems. The sun is the S-U-N, not S-O-N. Yes, yes. Very good. Travis, you have something to add? Um, so I have Venus in Pisces, and my experience of like love, um, is one of like extreme extremes. Like I'm at a point in my life now to where I question the reality of love, um, because, you know, it's something that you think that you can hold. You think that it's something you can build your life around. You think it's something that can support you. And then it's tested, and then it turns out not to be real. So then you're left questioning, what is real? Then, you know, what can I trust? What can I truly feel understood and feel like I can understand? I feel like Pisces lives in this in-between state of knowing and then questioning and then knowing and then questioning, because it's, there's not this kind of finality to it. There's not this kind of, like, I've, I've discovered it and this is where I'm going to be forever. I mean, even if you're talking about intuitive states, that's not a state that you can maintain at all times. You know, sometimes you just know, sometimes you don't. You know, there's a frustration. There's a frustration as a fire person because I just want it to make sense and I want it to be consistent and I want it to be something tangible and like immediate that I can explain and express. And then it's just not that. It'll never be that. It's very frustrating. I, I hear what you're saying. Alex, you have something to add? Yeah, two things. One, um, from the conversation we were kind of having about Jesus, I would recommend the movie Zeitgeist if anyone's interested in sort of the, I guess conspiracy theory about the origin of, like, institutional religion today. It's really great. Um, and then about Venus in Pisces, I also have Venus in Pisces, actually. And I feel like I usually struggle, I mean, it's, it's squared by Pluto as well, so that doesn't help. But I usually struggle with kind of imagining that, um, a partnership will kind of save me and will, you know, become united, you know, and kind of go back to God together or something like that. And I feel like I, I can't remember if it was you who said it last class or if I maybe read this or something, but I think obviously the highest vibration of Pisces is compassion. And I think the highest vibration of love is compassion as well. So I think it's just a part of the process of evolving as a Venus in Pisces and realizing that, oh, actually, this partnership isn't just about me and me reuniting with source or whatever. It's just about, I think, learning how to love for me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, absolutely. Passion. Yeah. My dad, Venus and Mars in the 12th, no Sun in eighth house. Like, he's the most alone person that I've like ever known. I mean, he only married my mom and after that, nobody else. And like, now he's just, he spends most of his time alone, and he's fine with it. It's just so, I don't know, it's so bizarre to me. Well, some people are so prone to escapism. I mean, escape humanity itself. And you can see that in some highly Aquarian personalities. You can see that in some highly Piscian personalities. They're a bit different. The motivation, the Aquarian is more, I want to separate myself because y'all are a bunch of idiots. But Pisces is more, I'm going to separate myself because I'm hurt or because I can't handle the relationship. Right. They'll suffer from boundaries. I often see that for for people that have a lot of Piscian in their nature. They feel that, you know, they've really been put through the wringer in relationships. And so their answer to that is to like, move to a cabin in the woods and never have a human relationship again. We all crave that every once in a while. Okay, sorry. Celia, Celia's her turn. Sorry. Okay, so say I have the Moon in Pisces. Would that contribute to sort of like not dating for a long time after a breakup? Just needing my space? That's a pretty common expression of having the Moon in Pisces. We don't want the dream to pop or to slip away. And often times, you know, if we've been through something traumatic, we'll kind of pull back and, uh, refocus on that dream. And, um, it's just a very highly sensitive personality that I think you probably got going on there. I think the difficult side to like, the unknowable aspect of Pisces that you were talking about, is disillusionment. Oh, yes. Because you build up this dream, and Sag, like me having Moon in Sag, and then Venus in Pisces, I have this very optimistic streak, and then this like crash of disappointment when it's like, that's not the way that it is, you know? My heart can't deny the truth of what I see and experience. But I don't know what to cling to, because there is the unavoidable unknowing, or like an unavoidable part that's like, I can't know, you know? And you want to connect with people, but then you have to ask yourself, like, how real is the connection? And how much of this is me just playing out my fantasies? Like, fantasy is the like, the addiction of all Pisces personalities. It is addicting. It is human. The human being, my dear, that's why we all end with it. Illusion. What it is to be such to be an animal that has such a big brain and that conceptualizes and thinks and has language. And a lot of the consequences of that is that we think things that we like to think. We don't escape it as old as it actually is. Yeah, I feel like we're stuck in these bodies that are like keeping us like our 12th house prison is this body. Like Pisces is the ultimate escape from this prison. Like that we can be free from being trapped in this. That makes sense. It is the ultimate freedom. It's the ultimate freedom that really comes from seeing ourselves as we actually are. And sometimes we can get that, uh, usually it's fleeting. We'll have those those moments of insight, or those moments of seeing the light. Those Aquarian moments, those Pisces moments. We want to keep it when it happens, you know, I become enlightened. I want to stay in this state forever. It doesn't work like that. We go in and we go out. We go in and we go out. It's like the infinity loop. We become ignorant from, like, ignorant. We become knowing. Is that from conditioning over time? Because people weren't like that like before? They were trained to repress everything? Well, it happened as soon as we started telling ourselves stories to explain the unknown. It happened as soon as we did Santa Claus. Yes, absolutely. Religion. What's comforting when we develop the capacity to realize the human next to us has died, and that we are going to do the same. I mean, we were very primitive when we figured this out. And this is when we started our death rituals and our religious roots, really. It's just a body, though. It's nothing to be afraid of, because you're a body. So into Pisces, we realize that there could be, and probably is, so much more. But we don't know what it is. And it isn't personal. And nobody can save us except ourselves. Nobody can save us except ourselves. We are our own salvation. The human saving themselves saves humanity. I think that, I mean, if I, I don't know if anyone else wants to talk right now, but having Sun in Aries, like for me, this kind of internal experience of self, that concrete reality of like, this exists. And it doesn't matter what anybody else says. It doesn't matter what your opinions are of my selfhood or my self-experience. That's salvation for me. Because it's like, it can't be questioned. It doesn't need to be understood. It's there. It just is. Like, you know, like after this conversation, I'm going to walk away, and I'm still going to exist onto myself. And it doesn't matter what anybody thinks about my opinion or your opinion of that, you know? And like, knowing that there's something that exists beyond interpretation, beyond like inspiration, that doesn't need to be hoped for, that doesn't need to, like, that is absolutely present throughout life, and is actually the foundation of life. That, I, I live for that. That is something that sustains. Yeah, that's the ultimate sustaining comfort. I think you just said it all right there. So the beginning is the end, and the end is the beginning. That's it. That's it. That's what's infinite. Yes. It ends with Pisces, and it begins with Aries. And it ends at Pisces. It begins with Aries. It ends with us saying, you know what? I don't know. And that's okay. If I feel in the gaps, then all I'll know is what I want to know. So are they going to bring like the new planet out where it's like outside of all that so we can get out of this loop and just go? Not sure what the timing is. I think we're about 10 years away, but it could come quicker. But, uh, uh, Dane Rudhyar, the infinite astrologer of the early 20s, because you said by the books, it's fabulous. He said, in his opinion, it would be discovered in our lifetime, and it would be called Proserpina. Persephone. What's the guy's name again? Dane Rudhyar. D-A-Y-N-E R-U-D-Y-A-R. Travis, um, I guess just to pick your brain a little bit, because you're obviously highly intelligent, you know what you're talking about. But okay, so I look at like tropical Western astrology, and I, on one hand, I totally acknowledge like, there's some truth to this, you know? Like, some, my grandma has Sun, Moon, Mars in Aries, and she looks like she's 40, but she's 80 and just super spirited, you know? You look at archetypal people like that, you're like, all right, there's something going on here. But if you really look at astrology, it is so incredibly unlikely. You know, it's like, how, what are the chances that jutting out from Earth, there are these spokes of archetypal personalities, and that the planets happen to line up with, you know, functions of human consciousness? Like, what is actually going on here? It's pareidolia. It's humans. It's humans seeing things as we see them in accordance to our brain. We project astrology onto the heavens. I feel like we're also made of the same things that the entire universe is made for. I feel like we're like the universe's children. We are made stuff of stars. That's where we come from. We come from exploding stars. That's where most all connected by electricity. The thing that boggles my mind is how regular it is. How predictable it is. The fact that you can look at people across the world, you can look at animals. My cat has Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Tyzen's conjunct Neptune, and she is the most slippery, just cat you've ever seen in your entire life. What is going on here? It's a massive, it's a mass delusion. That's why astrology works. We're looking up into the sky, and we are seeing what we see. When you learn to see things as they are, you don't take astrology so seriously anymore, because you realize it's all in our head. If there was no human to measure it, it wouldn't exist. Would you say it's a kind of divination? What was that? What is it? Kind of a divination? You know, like, is it almost versus religion? It is. It's the first religion. It's the first religion that humans ever made up. And it's a shaman. We reverse it. We reverse. Well, we can look at it and say, okay, this is what I see. What does that say about me? What does this tell me about myself? So it's human. Astrology is just like math. Math would not exist if there was no human to interpret it. It's not something itself. Astrology is only a consequence of the human mind. I think that that's a really good point. I mean, that's where it exists ultimately. I mean, yeah, the planets moving around, you know, from the point of view of the Earth, wouldn't exist without us giving it a point. It has to have something to interpret it. Yes. It doesn't mean anything in itself. Well, we wouldn't exist without that either. Like, something happened out there that created our, our first molecules. Like, we're connecting. Sure. Yes. We're a consequence of it. We're products of, of our environment. We're products of the universe itself. And then it's like, uh, you know, we develop the way we develop, and we see things the way that we see them. But it isn't the way things are in themselves. So just like, um, if we have say, an alien civilization, I'm just gonna ask you about that. There we go. Yeah, it's leading to that. Say an alien civilization, say that maybe it's developed over in a totally different, uh, universe, not just a different solar system, but a different universe. They would be made of something different. Maybe they would be silicon-based. They would have everything about that they are us evolved. No, I don't think so. I think that the universe is so big and so vast and has so many potentials in it that we could have any number of different combinations of molecules that can come together and create any number of different life forms. But I don't think that they would be human. So their interpretation of their universe would be very different because they would have a different genetic makeup. Their brains would be different. I mean, even, oh, hold on. I can't yet. One second. I'll come to you in a second. So, um, we've been talking about how astrology essentially represents the evolution of human consciousness, you know, from certain stages of life, you know, through distinct steps. Like, is there a metaphysical? Like, is this something that we just created through our own imagination? Or is there some kind of guiding hand to the themes of these archetypes, these these concrete personalities that we can intuitively know, that we can access? You know, there's such order to it. There's such purpose. What's the reason? Are we living life to learn these lessons? Or is it just a framework that we try to understand? We try to understand our lives that doesn't really exist outside of our interpretation. It does not exist outside of our interpretation. No. I believe that if we had aliens say that came here, we would probably not be able to communicate with them because we wouldn't even have the same motivations. You know, they, they would come, and we would say, what do you want? Maybe they don't have a concept of want. So there's no universality. There's no universality to astrology or anything. I think that there is universality to it as the human mind interprets it. But I can't know anything more than that. I think that that's a very grounded point of view. I can't know what another, uh, another entity's experience is. I can only know how my mind and the human mind interpret what it sees and comes into contact with. And that's very respectful. You know, I think that the fact that you're able to kind of hold on to that ignorance, you know, you practice astrology. I think that's amazing, honestly. It is because I can't. I'm about what I feel like there is, not what I see. What periods? Yeah, I wish that I could look at things like that, but I can't. I think that you will get, you will get there because I don't know that I'm supposed to. Like, you're prone to insects, my dear. We all get there if, if that's what we want. If we want to know, if you ask for the truth, you're just might gonna be able to get it. Yeah, at some point, I did too. When I was a teenager, I asked for the truth, and I keep getting it. I haven't gotten to the end of it. It seems so disappointing every time. Why? Well, that's a part of acknowledging what is. We, we have to acknowledge that we don't know. And, and part of living an honest life is to live in a certain state of nihilism. And I guess if we didn't know, what, what would be the fun in knowing everything? Or what would you want to do if you knew everything? You wouldn't want to get out of bed in the morning because you already knew it would be completely anticlimactic. Travis, I just think that it's ironic that people disparage astrology and astrologers, you know, and it's like, they, they take astrology, like the pop astrology, at face value, you know? And it's like, we're people who want to understand astrology, but we're willing to sit and be like, well, we don't know if this is not an exercise in absolute truth. This is just our curiosity seeking. But it's okay to prescribe all these drugs to people that they don't know what they do either. Can I, Kenya, you had something to add? I mean, I have lots of things to add, but, um, I, I just, I've always felt like, um, you know, the entire thing, like everything that's going on here on Earth, and, you know, I'm sure my view will continue to evolve, I hope it does. Um, but I just feel like we are these, you know, these fractals, like these tiny infinitesimal extensions of the biggest picture. The picture that isn't meant for us to be grasped. And everything that we are in terms of our ancestral experience, or maybe, you know, if you believe in reincarnation, other, um, other forms of experiences that we've had that are somehow imprinted into our spiritual DNA, or, you know, whatever, um, you know, our environment, all of these things that can be pointed to with all of the tools that we have here on Earth that we've uncovered, or that we've organized in certain ways, astrology being one of the greatest tools that we've, you know, ever come into contact with. I feel like all of those things, it's just the divine, the all, the everything experiencing itself over and over and over and over and over and over again through the experience of us. We're just, we're, we're. And there's something, Earth is such an important place because it has physical principles. It has physics. It has rules. It has gravity. It has immediate consequence. If I punch the wall, there are, there's going to be a hole in it, and my fist is going to hurt. You know, I mean, that's cool. The universe, go there, just like learn all your lessons. There's a way that things are able to be manifested into physical reality that, that then when we leave this physical reality, which is really just an illusion anyway, um, we return back to, you know, whatever that, whatever that, yeah, the big one is, but with more experience, with more growth, with more, you know, I don't know. It just, it seems, it doesn't seem so bleak to me. And people like, but what, but why, but this, and okay, but then what does this mean? It's just like, because why not? Like, why wouldn't the universe continue to seek to experience itself in myriad, like, endless ways? And we're just a tiny little fraction of that. It's, it's cool. It's awesome, you know? And I'm sure all about this. Exactly. And we, and we want to bring it back into our, like, our ego center of like, but why is this happening to me? And what does this mean for me? And it's like, you are just a vessel for the all to experience itself. That's the meaning of Pisces, I think. That regardless of what is going on, you know, like regardless of what the ultimate truth is, like we are here, and we just gotta deal with it. We're all in this together, you know? Like, we live in ignorance. We all live in profound ignorance. You know, I think that I was talking about like the ultimate reality of myself is something that I kind of like cling to or whatever. It gives me hope. I think the ultimate reality of the other, like, and cultivating that togetherness, like between human beings, not only in terms of our personal relationships, but something like this, just reaching out and talking to each other. That's reason to live in and of itself, whether or not astrology is real or God exists or anything like that. Like, I don't know. I feel like I sometimes want something profound, but and but that the answer is right in front of us. Just being together is enough, or should be enough. But I don't know. Yeah, it's like we have so much responsibility though, because we're out here breeding, we're like putting more humans out here. I just feel like we have so much responsibility and just in the future of every person. I guess, I guess our meaning is to just do the best we can to make a good impression, or I, I don't know. I wanted to add something to the idea of like everyone is just sort of ignorant. Um, I, I've been, I've been, you know, writing a book for the last 10 years. Like I've worked on video games and theme park attractions and done stand-up and pro wrestling and all kinds of stuff. And I've interviewed dozens and dozens of people in the entertainment industry. And kind of the reason that that entertainment and fun exists is the idea of finding these discovery moments of how things work. And anything if it's, if it's, if you don't have a responsibility or it's, it's some something that doesn't require, you know, your survival, everything else is motivated by fun. And fun is discovery moments. So it really is life. It is figuring all the stuff out and experiencing it. That is like the basis of all of everything that we do and all we're driven to do. That's a big part of what it is to be human. Absolutely. I see. We, we see that in the Leo, Aquarius axis as well. Absolutely. Well, expression is such a fundamental part of life. Is the in and creativity is how life, I mean, human, it's the essence of it. So of course, yeah, you, I mean, the beauty of being an artist is being able to rediscover that over and over and over again. I agree. And also to bring joy to other people and their experience what you made and created. It, yeah. Alex, and now I'm thinking, and I don't know anyone else's thoughts on this, but I feel like so in Aquarius, we kind of have this idea of objective truth, but at the same time, it's objective truth from someone's subjective perspective. Yeah. So I feel like maybe there's kind of thing in Pisces where we realize that objective truth is not actually truth. There isn't an objective truth. There's something bigger. There's more that can't be known. There's more. It's a transpersonal sign, Pisces. It's like surrender. Yes. Or we give up. This is when we die. I mean, all this is the ultimate surrender. So it's the ultimate surrender of our agenda and our empire, every ego, and what it is that it's always made things appear the way that they are, so that we can see the way that they actually are. Sit in front of Harry Potter's mirror and see everything we wanted to see, or we can look through it. That movie has been fabulous. Something Benjamin Button movie, have you seen that? I forget the name of it. He's born old and grows up and then dies young. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. Yes, that movie is so Pisces to me. Interesting. That's very good. Oh, yeah. I don't know about that whole thing. Yeah, it's a good one. I was just going to say that, you know, what you were talking about just kind of resonates the importance of the transpersonal planets and especially once we realized that there was something beyond Saturn's gate, you know, that brings that concrete definition and solidity and order. Um, and, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I just, yes, absolutely. Travis, okay, so I think that you're kind of like, sort of surrendered ultimate ignorance is wise when it comes to astrology. But as far as my own evidential experience is concerned with like astrological seasons, like we're in the season of Aries right now. And at least in the northern hemisphere, there's a kind of, of course, you kind of understand the nature of Aries through the season of Aries. Yes. Aries is about initiation, you know, like the explosion of new life, the shoot, like shooting up from the ground, plants, blah, blah, blah. But also the light. If you pay attention, like I've always been very kind of in tune with like the light of the seasons. Do you pay attention to the way the way that the sun looks in in its tropical season in the northern hemisphere, specifically? Because the southern hemisphere is a different case, right? It changes with the season on a very distinct, it does from one one degree to another. Like when we move into Taurus, the light will change. Like I've experienced it for yourself. But this is something that I live by. Like you, okay, we were to look at the light of autumn, okay, the light of spring, the days are waxing, the days are getting longer. It gives a different kind of look than the light of autumn when the days are waning. Yes. There's some, there's an objective physical correspondence on Earth to the astrological seasons, depending on where. This is just my experience. I don't, I'm not like saying this is like the eternal truth or whatever. But what do we do with that? You know, if we're, because it's the human mind interpreting it. Yes. It's happening. Absolutely. That's how we interpret the sun. Yes. That is how we see it. And so a human mind is measuring it. But see, a dog mind has no meaning. So without the human, without the sun, we wouldn't even exist. Yeah, that's the reason for the season. The sun. Everything. So I think that those things are going on. That is a part of how we factually interpret reality. [Music] But an alien mind may not see that at all. I see what you're saying. So it is happening, but to our humanity. You're looking at more cognitive, like foundational things. Like, yes, because there's an interpreter. I'm more trained in psychology and behavioral science and human development than I am in astrology. So I tend to bring all those things into one cohesive. I ask, like, how did you, with the scientific mind, how did you ever get involved in astrology? Like, what made you want to get into that part of it? Well, I think I was into astrology first because when I was about 13, I was in a bookstore and I came across the, the Big Book of Birthdays. Have you ever seen that one? Remember? Yeah, I was fascinated by it because I, I looked through it. I couldn't believe how accurate it was according to the people that I knew. And I, I just was so interested in how the system had anything to say. And so I bought the book and hid it under my bed. And as we were raised very fundamentally, um, religious, and hid it under, headed under my bed, and just kept studying and kept getting more books and got books on occult subjects and anything that I could, I could devour. Um, and then I went to college and became very much interested in more the left brain, a scientific way of understanding humans and explored that and never did graduate. Um, I, I went to college to get an education, and when I felt that I had an education, I was done. So you can't do that these days because it's too expensive. But do you think that science gives more of an answer to astrology, or the other way around? I think that astrology explains everything. It explains everything. And I will send you guys a video that I made previously for my subscriber group, um, where I'm talking about why astrology works, the cycles within cycles, because we are just a cycle within a larger cycle. Sure. Ourselves. In the Astrology 101 section of this. Yeah, I've watched. You've seen that one? Okay, so you're already hyped to that. Thank you. Thank you for spending time. Appreciate it. Oh, yes. Thank you. We love you. Thank you. I was just going to say, I saw this meme that said something about like astrology and

Psychology and like learning about personality types. All of this is sort of like a love language because like you never felt understood as a child, so you really want to understand everything and understand people. So for you, it's sort of like a way of feeling understood and trying to understand other people.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it makes us more compassionate about other people because we can see, oh wow, you know, I didn't realize that person had that going on in their church, you know, they're really struggling. I thought they were just an, but it turns out that there's this whole psychology behind them that I was not aware of. So I do think it makes us more compassionate towards ourselves, more compassionate towards other people, and just more understanding about everything.

So yeah, I think that, uh, it's it's the system I found that breaks everything down into its most core, I guess it's more core elements. And I see astrology in everything. I see it in everyday life. I see it when I go to the bank and somebody talks to me a certain way. I see it in all human interactions, and I've just gotten to where I can understand the combinations that I'm dealing with. You can call it before you know, you can you can a lot of times, a lot of times. And it helps me to understand how to deal with that situation and what is the remedy, how should I approach that situation? Because say I come into contact with somebody that, you know, has their classic, uh, you know, Mars Uranus square, and I'm dealing with them like, oh, they're, you know, they just won't listen to me, they're not taking any advice, they're not teachable. But say I find out that they have this in their chart, now I know exactly how to deal with them. Or I just garner that from their personnel. I'm like, okay, this is somebody that's got some kind of Mars Uranus stuff going on here. Um, I have a tool now to deal with them. I know that I can't put any pressure on them and I have to use reverse psychology, and that I'll probably have to go in the other direction in order to get them to go that way as well. Now I know, you know, how to deal with this particular situation. So I think that astrology makes us not about Mars Uranus. Worse, it's difficult sometimes. We're going to feel very disempowered and sometimes extremely empowered because it's it's either or. Dealing with a person with that, yeah, they're going to be sometimes extremely teachable and other times unreachable. It really depends on which side of them they're airing on. But yeah, incredible insight can come with, uh, hard aspects to Uranus. We have to work for it with the hard aspect, but get it. Travis, I'll say that, you know, it's definitely helped me in my life with my personal relationships. Like I grew up in a family where I always just felt so different. And then having the tool of astrology to look at my parents and my brothers, they every single one of them has Moon Uranus, Moon Mercury versus my Moon Venus aspects. So we just do not get each other. I'm fire water, they're earth air. Every single one. My Mercury is in Aries. All four of them have Mercuries in Libra. So we just communicate very different ways. Yeah, where it's like I'm just like, tell the truth all the time, be honest, even if it it hurts. And their Mercury in Libra is like, uh, white lies all the way, let's hedge, we want everybody to be happy. Yeah.

Absolutely. No, that's helpful. Yeah, yeah. I have Mercury and Libra and Moon and Pisces. So it's like, um, I don't feel like I white lie, but I I definitely hedge. I think it's it's normal. It's normal. And when you have a nice personality, you want everybody to be included. Yeah, you know, and I think sometimes it can get out of hand and other times it's appropriate for the situation. It just depends on where we are and who we're dealing with. But for the most part, we do want to try to be ourselves in most situations. But again, sometimes like we can't use a hammer for everything. Sometimes it'll be those situations where it's like we put our own expression or our own thing on the back burner so the other person can be comfortable. Kind of like in my own personality, where I'm actually an introvert, but if I come into contact with someone who's more introverted than me or is having a hard time communicating or making connection, I can become very extroverted for that person. Yeah. I call myself that allows them to get to share who they are. I call myself an extroverted introvert, where like most people think I'm more extroverted than I really am. Uh, sometimes we can be an ambivert as well, and it can be situational which side of ourselves happens to come out.

But okay, guys, so I think we have to wrap it up there for today. I think we're up for three or four hours today. So four hours. We need to go potty again. Um, I'll see you again next weekend at 10 a.m. Just like this weekend. And I I think I was successful at sending out the link to Zoom. I haven't gotten any angry emails, so I think I figured it out this time. So, uh, we'll do it again next weekend. And if you guys do have any questions between now and then, make sure to write them down because we can always lead into the next lesson with those questions. Okay, thank you so much, Stuart. Thank you. You're so welcome, everybody. Great time. Thank you. Bye bye.