الإعلانات الوهمية غلطة التطبيق ولا الوسيط؟ | ابراهيم الشهيل| بودكاست عقار

We alerted the broker to the same point: do not enter the real estate sector with dreams of quick riches. This can be an important point we always see in contexts. People hear about the millionaire pursuit and say, "That's it, from the first month, God willing, I'll be making millions." In reality, this is not normal. And she is renting from someone, and they don't know if this someone is himself or not, but she is renting, paying the rent value, of course, also paying an illogical value, meaning less than the value of an apartment in a year, she paid, and with her furniture. As I returned from home, this was the joke. As I returned home, a sad joke, a third person came with his furniture to the same apartment. It was a strange situation, you don't know what to do. Okay, what do you do with the first one? What do you do with the second one? And the one inside, how does he get out? We can't believe the numbers that are coming in, but this indicates that there is a need and a demand. This goes back to the point of challenges. If there is a need, you will be impressed by the results. If there is no need, you will be fighting the waves. In the end, the sea doesn't want to carry you, so you will get tired. Welcome, I am Faisal Al-Mutab, CEO of Khuld Real Estate Company. I am addressing you today through the Aqar podcast, where I will talk about real estate technologies. Today, I am hosting Engineer Ibrahim Al-Shehail, CEO of Aqar application company, with whom we discussed real estate technologies, the importance of data in real estate, opportunities, possibilities, and challenges in the real estate technology sector. Welcome, Abu Abdul Aziz. Welcome. I am happy today for your acceptance of the invitation of Aqar Company. May God make you happy and bless you. May God make you happy. We would like to start with a quick beginning. In the past few days, there was news about the Haraj application and its agreement with the Deal application and the organization of the real estate advertising process, specifically. So there is a period and a slight gap, surely Aqar application exploited it. Correct. So how was its impact on you today? Well, the question was sudden, but we will answer briefly. Of course, the main driver of the event was the new regulations for the real estate sector, including the real estate brokerage system. The real estate brokerage system regulates the mechanism and method of advertising and the regulatory requirements to be able to advertise a real estate unit. Platforms and websites vary in their application and commitment to the terms and conditions of the system imposed by the General Real Estate Authority. We at Aqar have no direct relationship with Haraj, perhaps this answers a question you did not ask, but there is always a question about the relationship between Aqar and Haraj. The relationship between Aqar and Haraj is that one of Aqar's owners is the owner of the Haraj application, Engineer Yousef Rashid. This is the only relationship, but each company is completely separate. So the details may not be available to me. You can ask Haraj or Deal about them, but I will answer you from Aqar's perspective. We saw what happened and how we dealt with it. For us, when the regulations happened before the agreement that occurred, before the announcement that happened, it seemed to me that there was an agreement between the Authority and Haraj to temporarily close the section. For us, this was a golden opportunity to acquire a number of clients who were advertising on Haraj and started looking for another platform to advertise on. And thank God, perhaps Aqar was one of the most famous and prominent platforms they knew, and we benefited a little, honestly, in the numbers during that period. How much were the percentages? The products and types vary, but we have services that we saw a 50% increase in. Overnight, and a continuous increase since then. The clients who switched have not returned, almost. Haraj or perhaps it started advertising on Aqar and Haraj, I don't have the information, but for us, we saw it as a beneficial opportunity and we benefited from it greatly, thank God. We entered directly. Yes, please. But our topic in essence is about real estate applications and real estate technology. Today in the Kingdom, we are witnessing a major transformation in the sector, and today real estate is an industry. We talk about brokerage, we talk about the auctions sector, development, and today the real estate technology sector is entering the real estate market significantly. We are seeing technology auction companies, technology property management companies, technology brokerage companies. Today, you, God willing, head perhaps the most famous and largest application in Saudi Arabia, Aqar application. So today, you surely have a different perspective and different statistics about the market and the real estate technology sector. Exactly. But I would like, at the beginning, to give me a comprehensive overview of the impact of real estate technology on the Saudi market specifically. Okay, great. Let me start with the general perspective. It is important that whoever looks at real estate understands the services offered in the sector first, so that they can visualize real estate technology well. Technology in general, when it enters any sector, begins by improving and refining current processes. There are things that are practiced manually today. The entry of technology begins with refining the work, automating what can be automated. Over time, creativity begins to increase in this sector until technology can change the nature of existing transactions and create new transactions that did not exist before without technological tools that could not have been implemented without technological tools. When we come to the real estate sector, you are essentially talking about the general services available, whether you are talking about investment, real estate development, brokerage, auctions, marketing, property management, and facility management. In total, even analytics, data, and statistics. The total services in the real estate sector are all almost touched by technology in one way or another, with varying degrees of technological impact on them. Easy sectors are saturated, difficult sectors still have greater opportunities that have not been exploited significantly. The real estate sector, perhaps one of the things that some may not notice, is the high amount of intersection between the real estate sector and the financial sector. The nature of the assets in the real estate sector is either that ownership is done through financial solutions, or real estate investment and development is done through financial solutions, whether we are talking about funds, contributions, etc., from the product. This is the general picture from afar. If we try to zoom in a bit, people's journey in real estate usually begins with an exploration phase. I want to buy or rent. What is offered in the market? How do I know what is offered in the market? Anyone who has tried to rent in the last 15-20 years has probably gone through the transformations that have occurred in the market. In the beginning, you want to rent, you search the neighborhood. Who is in the office in the neighborhood you want? You want a property. So the first thing you need to know is where you want to go. Then you search the neighborhood. Who are the offices, or ask acquaintances, who knows someone who works in it? So the first stage, perhaps the easiest stage, is where real estate technologies entered. You can even see it globally. It is one of the first real estate technology products that emerged, which are advertising platforms. For example, in China, there is a platform that started in 2001. In America, and so on. You find it among the first technologies that started, which are advertising services. Advertising services serve, depending on the nature of market dynamics, they may serve the advertiser, the broker, or the owning company that wants to sell. Platforms vary according to business models and the nature of the market. This is perhaps another observation. Markets globally are very similar. You find, for example, in a country like America, the nature of real estate transactions is different from Britain, for example. You find it in Saudi Arabia different, for example, from the Emirates, different from Egypt. Markets are not static, they change over time. But today, if you take the current picture, this country operates in one way, and this country operates in another way, and this country, with all of them, are ultimately real estate, buyers, and sellers. But market customs and people's practices vary from one market to another. This is what differentiates the final product. So you find that the platform in Saudi Arabia has different features than the platform in the Emirates, different from the platform in Spain, different from the platform in Australia. Each one tries to keep up with its market because the platform's ability to, let's say, influence the market is high, but not so high that it shapes the market. There is a push and pull between adapting to the market and market needs, and developing the market and improving the process. So today, real estate technology is a need. Yes, real estate technology, if it does not meet a need, it does not exist. This is one of the biggest challenges. There are people who come with theoretical ideas, creating a need in their minds, but when it comes to reality, no one wants it. The idea is beautiful, nice, a beautiful idea, but no one wants it. And this will come with us today. Yes, and this is one of the ideas that suffer and do not succeed, and die in the end. So we started with the first need. The first need is to find the right property. This is what search platforms of various kinds serve, Aqar as an example. After this stage, perhaps most sectors do not have strong existing models today in Saudi Arabia. This indicates that there is an opportunity. This sector still has no player that has been able to provide value and thus obtain a market share. Whether you are talking about products that improve brokerage operations today, for example, we are talking about the broker and the nature of the service that the broker provides today in Saudi Arabia in general. There are distinguished people, but in general, the level of service is still not at the professionalism you might see elsewhere. There are technological tools that help the broker improve the quality of his work, improve his ability to communicate with clients and target clients, and thus achieve deals. There is still a gap in this area today in the market. I see that before the tools, there is a skill component for the broker, that he understands the nature of the broker's work, understands the sales journey. These are things that, if found, the broker will begin to realize how much he needs certain tools to develop his work method. This is related to exploration, but I have reached the unit, I have spoken with a broker, I found that he has a property that I liked, then I wondered how he follows up with me, how he knows what I need, and how he doesn't send me something I don't want. I want an apartment, he can send me land, for example. All of these improve the quality. First, it improves the experience of the end customer and improves the quality of the outputs. The simple outputs. The next stage is talking about various marketing tools. We are still in the marketing sector. Talking about, for example, what is called virtual twin or digital twin. Technologies that help the client see the property without going to it. I am sitting in my place, I want, for example, like Port or other technologies, I can see the unit, whether it is built or not built, and get at least a preliminary impression of it. These are among the things that are considered part of real estate technologies and are in the field of marketing. These are available in companies operating in Saudi Arabia that provide this service, whether they take it as an agency or have their own product. Then comes the sale process. The sale process itself today depends on the seller. You find, for example, products available in the market today that provide services to the developer, tools to automate the sale process or customer relationship management from the beginning of identifying the client as a potential client until closing the deal. This is an area of services. I will speed up just to cover the other sectors. Talking about after the sale, the property management sector and the facility management sector as examples of sectors where there are tools today, but in my personal opinion, the same problem exists with the service tools for the broker. The sector is still not at the level that the tools serve it. There is still a gap in the number of service providers, but it is one of the areas that exist, and whoever enters it early may obtain a considerable market share and may help it grow with the market or grow with the market in the beginning. These are things related to real estate directly. There are financial services related to the beginning, for example, the developer who wants to build and the investor who wants to invest in real estate in various forms. I was talking about a fund that wants to build a project or fractional ownership platforms, meaning I want to buy 1% of a commercial complex. I can't buy it entirely, but I want to put a share, I want to buy a share in it. This is an example of services. Or brokerage services for financing. Today, I am a client. Most residential clients today, a large percentage of them buy through financing. They don't have the financial ability to buy in cash, or even the client who has the financial ability to buy in cash wants financing for any reason. How do I get the best financing suitable for this unit? This is one of the services where there are not many available in the market today, and we see a great opportunity in it in the future. Among the things that are not available today are business models that may exist in other countries. A model related to ownership, financial solutions, but it intersects with real estate technology, such as "rent now, pay later" products, or another product called "rent to own," and a product that gives you a period to rent the property for three to five years, and then you have the option to buy the property you rented. There are existing ones, most of the examples you mentioned. In developed countries, there are advanced companies in these models. In Saudi Arabia, most of the examples you mentioned, one or two companies are exploring the sector. Most of them are early-stage sectors, but all of them have opportunities. These are the prominent things, and I expect that today in the real estate sector, the balance is right. There are very advanced things and very delayed things, but I think overall we are in a stage of innovation, a stage where companies should create business models that did not exist before. The most prominent example of this is "rent now, pay later." Today, there is a buzz, and there are two companies, and the sector has grown. If you came a year and a half ago, you wouldn't hear about it. No one was thinking about it. So we are in this stage of real estate technology. Consumed ideas may not be the ones that will have a large share, but whoever can innovate business models that did not exist before will find great opportunities in the real estate sector, especially if it solves the problem of ownership. This is one of the vision's enablers, so you will find support from everyone. The developer wants to sell, so you help him sell. The buyer wants to live, so you help him live. And the legislator has a goal to achieve a high ownership rate. So this is one of the sectors we are focusing on. What are the ownership solutions in the real estate sector? We see high demand and high need for them. They are not unnecessary things, but necessities. Therefore, if your idea is practical and works, you will find customers. You talked earlier about the experience or markets in China, the Emirates, or even Singapore. In the past period, you had a group, God willing, of trips and journeys. Even when we were preparing the episode and talking, we were talking about the Saudi market in the past and the Saudi market currently, the Chinese market, for example, the Emirates market, Singapore. Today, where are we, and what is our position? Is our market considered good? Are we lagging behind? Is it better than others? What is happening with us today? My personal opinion, without a doubt. Based on your visits and surveys. Yes, no, we are in two aspects. In the aspect of the real estate market itself, the real estate market as a whole, I am not talking about real estate technology. We are undoubtedly among the promising markets for growth, and the targets in the Kingdom and short-term and medium-term plans all indicate that the Saudi real estate market is a growing market, with growth higher than normal growth. You cannot compare it to countries that do not have the same level of growth, market nature, demographic structure, and targets. All indicate that the real estate market will continue to grow in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for the next 15 years. There are no negative indicators for the long term. Clear. But when it comes to real estate technology, we have a shortage that is not commensurate with the size of the market. This is one of the biggest challenges in the real estate sector, that the level of service does not match the level of the market and where the market is heading. This creates a challenge. Today, we are talking about, for example, the system of foreign ownership of real estate, and we are not talking about residents, but about opening foreign investment, because this is one of the system's targets. The target is for foreign investors to come and invest in Saudi Arabia and receive excellent service because they are investors and not coming to live. So, they will most likely buy a unit and want this unit to give them an excellent return and their capital to grow well. Capital growth is achieved because the market is excellent, but they have a challenge in operation. Imagine, for example, that 100 billion riyals are coming from outside the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, investors who want to invest 100 billion riyals. This is talking about 10,000 properties. Who will operate 10,000 properties? This is one of the challenges. Someone will come. This need means there is an opportunity, and the opportunity means many people are looking at it. Each one is thinking about how to enter. From the journey I have been through, a large number of companies from outside the Kingdom are seeing the opportunity and want to enter. I see that those in the market are more deserving, but they must work a little harder. They must provide a suitable level of service so that they can take a part of the cake that is coming and provide this service. The nature of foreign investment, its needs, its investors' circumstances. But in the end, there is a big cake coming. It is a shame that those who target the sector by providing services do not focus and are not in a suitable position to obtain a part of this cake, because it is a simple cake. This is the perspective of services. If real estate technology develops, it develops because real estate technology is built on the existence of services. It is the improvement and development of existing services. This is the challenge. Indeed, if there is weakness in technological services, it will not solve the problem. Services must exist for technology to begin improving them, automating what can be automated, increasing their quality, and reducing the cost of providing the service. So, in short, it is a very attractive market. The challenges in it are the existence of service providers that support the market, because in the end, the market must have the existing services. When we talk today about residential complexes and communities that are being built, they need operation. Who will operate them? These are the complexes. This is the challenge we are talking about. It will create an opportunity. Therefore, today, you can find some developers starting to establish companies for facility and property management of what they have built because they did not find anyone to operate it with the quality they want in the market. Over time, these companies will grow and provide services to other developers, and the market with good service will be the one that serves everyone. This is the nature of markets. They do not remain the same. Whoever provides excellent service and quality will continue. Is our market shaping itself in a new way, or is it today copying the experience of Dubai and Singapore? Of course, there is a degree of uniqueness in my personal opinion for the market, especially in the long term. They are not parallel to the market situation. This is what I mean by the market levels. Some rise from others, or fall from others. There are things that jump ahead and things that catch up with the jump that occurred. This is normal. Markets are not static. Their dynamism may differ from time to time. Today, in certain sectors, we are like other countries 10-15 years ago. Do we need 15 years to reach them? No, we are, among the things that always surprise people in the Saudi market is that the leaps that took other countries five and 15 years, we can do them in a year, two years, three years. The harder part, perhaps, that delays things, are the regulatory and legislative aspects. These are always fast with us, thank God. But the aspects that are usually challenging are those related to human capital and capacity development. By its nature, there is no magic solution to qualify 50,000 people tomorrow. This is what takes time. And you see it in other sectors. The amount of focus on developing skills and capabilities is very high, and this leads to the improvement that took countries naturally five, ten, fifteen years, we can compress it and do it in three, four, five years. This is one of the market advantages. There is high support and focus on targets, which allows us to achieve these goals faster than others. Today in the market, there are several models. Some are based on monthly and annual subscriptions, and some are service for service. If you are talking about companies, what models do you see as suitable, and the most sustainable models that are currently achieving positive returns for any company working in the sector? Okay, great. Of course, financial models and fee models vary from company to company and from service to service. Let's talk, for example, about the marketing and advertising sector and real estate platforms, which have more than approximately 50 licensed platforms by the General Real Estate Authority. Globally, the models are not many. Income is either based on advertising fees or, let's say, a commission, a percentage of the sale amount if they sell. Of course, this commission model is very rare globally. If we exclude Haraj, the model is not applied in many places. The platforms that apply commissions abroad are usually brokerage offices that present themselves as platforms, like Compass in America. It is actually a large brokerage office, but it presents itself as a technological solution and tells the broker, "I will give you tools to help you sell more than you sell if you don't work with me in exchange for a percentage of the commissions you earn." So, in general, the commission model in the real estate sector globally is this model, not the model of "advertise, and if we sell, we take a commission." The applied model is usually advertising fees, or in some cases, like Aqar, there is an option for fees or an option for subscription, which is like buying a package of ads in advance at a reduced price and additional services, promotional services, or other services. What is the sustainable model? Honestly, it depends on each platform's business model. A subscription model may be suitable for one platform and not for another, because its nature of work, customer acquisition, and marketing are structured in a way that suits the income it receives. So, there is no fixed answer for this, as much as each platform's models differ. Today, we at Aqar are trying to make advertising one of the services we offer. We are trying to expand to other services in the real estate sector, whether we serve the broker directly, the owner directly, the seeker directly, and even the developer directly. Thus, we create additional income sources. Honestly, if you ask me personally, I am one of the targets that I don't know how to reach, but we have a plan to reach it, which is to return to the stage where advertising on the platform is not the primary source of income, and thus advertising is free. I can, by obtaining all advertisements, generate other income sources that cover my costs and generate profit. This is our goal because we see the basic commodity we sell is advertising. So, this is the question that was on my mind: what are the additional services offered by Aqar application and its added value compared to other applications? Look, today Aqar, as a platform, once again, I like to frame my words in the real estate advertising services sector. In the real estate advertising services sector, the highest value that a customer chooses the platform they use is based on content, the abundance of content, the abundance of offerings. The more offerings a platform has, the more capable it is of acquiring the largest possible number of customers at the lowest cost. This is the advantage that Aqar has today, thank God. We have the largest possible number of advertisements compared to all platforms in the market, with the exception of others. We have tens of times more than our closest competitors. And at the same time, the cost is not very high. We have a challenge, honestly, in the cost related to the peripheral areas, and this challenge may be a separate question. And we have ideas on how to address it. But in general, in the main cities, we find that our cost is perhaps even lower than it should be based on the service and the assets that Aqar provides you in these markets, Riyadh, especially the Western and Eastern regions, primarily. Other cities, due to the market size, are different. So, this is the basic thing we offer, which is advertising. Today, advertising for the broker is the primary service at Aqar, and it is, let's say, the main pillar of the company. What additional services do we offer? We offered and have new products coming out next year that focus heavily on real estate projects and the new real estate exhibition in the market. What are the most prominent ones, briefly? Today, we have a challenge in the real estate market. From our observation last year, with the increase in projects, the end customer, the seeker, does not have the ability to find a place that displays all the projects available in the market in a way that facilitates their search journey. So, the search journey for real estate, which used to be "search, find, ask, call, dial," is available in new real estate. Now, to know, I have to know the developers and contact the developers, because many developers, for example, do not deal with brokers. This is one of the challenges in the market, which we expect to change. The broker's performance is very effective for the developer. The developer needs the broker to develop his tools a little. But the added value that he provides to the developer is much greater than the developers' perception. And many developers in the market today, some developers have started experimenting with marketers and have seen this impact, and we are convinced that this trend will continue. But its absence means that I, as a searching customer, have to know the developers and know how to contact them and ask them where their projects are and go see them. This is the experience that was available in most real estate 15 years ago. Today, one of the things we are targeting to achieve next year, God willing, is to reach a stage where you can see 50, 60, 70, 80% of the new real estate offerings in one place. We give you an easy and smooth experience to find these properties and then choose the suitable one and then complete the journey. So, this is a service we offer to developers. We offer, of course, this offering is not the primary service. The primary service is providing access to potential buying customers for the developer, because this is the commission the developer wants in the end, or this is the service the developer wants. He wants a customer who wants to buy a project. So, we provide this service. We provide it today through advertisements within the platform, through promotion within the platform, through promotion outside the platform on social media platforms of various kinds. So, this is one of the services we offer to developers. We also offer additional services to developers related to data, statistics, and studies. For example, in residential and commercial as well. But this is a brief overview of the services that Aqar offers to developers and real estate investment companies. Regarding, you know, we always talk about the brokerage sector and challenges in general. Today, what is the biggest challenge facing real estate technology companies? I mean, talking about opportunities and challenges. So today, what are the biggest challenges that any existing company might face? Primarily, from experience, the biggest challenge today is the sector's understanding. A large part of the companies we see, the biggest challenge we see with founders is the lack of understanding of the sector. This is a journey I personally went through. I came from outside the sector. Simplify it more for me. You see, when we talked about the idea being beautiful but having no customer, this challenge exists in many sectors. When someone from outside the sector comes with a perception that you have a problem, solve it like this. Okay, I entered a little, and I saw how things are from the inside. No. So this is the biggest challenge in the sector. Many founders have unrealistic ideas. When you bring them to the market, no one wants them. Either their cost is higher than the return, so either it might be a temporary solution suitable for two years, three years, five years, and so on. This challenge, honestly, is the biggest challenge we face in the sector. And I discovered that it is not only in Saudi Arabia. I discovered that if you listen to investors in this sector globally, this is one of the basic things they always mention: the biggest problem facing people is that they come with solutions that do not solve a problem. You created this problem that you see as a problem, but it is not the real problem in the sector. So this is the biggest challenge. The second challenge related to it is that real problems in the market sometimes may have a type of governmental competition for them. For example, I give examples that may clarify. Companies that exist in other countries, we will not find companies in Saudi Arabia because what is done is by government companies. For example, providing services related to the real estate registry in general. The real estate registry had an initiative, and honestly, I don't know where they reached with it, but a large number of services can be provided by companies, saving costs for the real estate registry instead of it being the primary service provider. And providing different services, creating differentiation in the market, so people go to the service that suits them best, instead of having one service provider for everyone at the same level. The same thing exists, for example, in Ejjar. Ejjar is one of the challenges. I see Ejjar as a government solution. The government solution is to document the contract and register it. How do I document the contract? How do I register? With whom do I deal? Which platform do I use? There should be five, six, ten solutions. Let companies emerge and start innovating different solutions. You find people who solve Ejjar solutions that are not a priority for them, but someone wants it in the market and can build a business model on it that serves the customer. This is part of the examples of services that a government entity is providing today, regardless of the reasons why the government entity decided to provide the service. But a challenge. But it is a challenge, like payments in Ejjar. Payments in Ejjar, assuming Ejjar as a network is a government program to be implemented by a government entity. Managing the payment process could have been an opportunity to open it to the private sector that wants to provide this service. Provide this service under the conditions based on which the service is provided, and you are accountable for providing the service according to standard 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, whether it is from the Central Bank, the General Real Estate Authority, or the Ministry of Housing. This is what we mean. These are easy areas where you can create high value in the market. Everyone benefits from these being owned and provided by private sector companies, because their ability to grow, compared to many government companies, no matter what. And the result is higher quality for the end consumer. I have two, three, four solutions instead of one solution. If it worked for me, it worked. If it didn't, I'm upset and not served. This is an example of easy things because, for example, "rent now, pay later" had a challenge related to the process of issuing lease contracts and the manual process related to issuing lease contracts. Let me give you another example, and this is an example I know Ejjar has been working on for a while, but if it were also made available to a third party, it might be better, the issue of the tenant's credit score. Today, I am a landlord. A tenant came to me. I want any information that tells me if this person will pay the rent or not, or that the place he left from, he didn't pay, or there was a claim against him, there was damage, etc. A credit score, like the credit score of Simah, for example. These are many ideas that exist in the real estate sector, and the customer will pay for them. You are providing added value, and the customer will pay for it. But we need empowerment. These are some examples. I give another example because we are trying to think about how to do it. And perhaps what might scare us and be an obstacle is regulation, and the entity that will say, "This is mine, not yours. This belongs to the market, not to you." It is related to off-plan sales. The off-plan sales market is growing rapidly in Saudi Arabia. We see today a challenge related to reselling the off-plan sales market. It is a large market globally. Usually, off-plan sales are a financing tool for the developer. So, I am an investor, and I will pay a down payment in exchange for a discount and sell it after six months. The project will not be completed after six months. I will sell it. I will take my profit for the six months I invested my money. And another customer will come, either genuinely intending to live there or another investor who wants less risk and less profit. This is one of the challenges. I see that the off-plan sales sector, the resale market must exist, or the resale market. Because as a buyer, I don't feel trapped if I buy and the project is delayed, I don't like it, etc. The option to exit the contract is easy, not just available, but easy. I go to a place to offer my unit. People come. They know that units are offered for sale here. This is among the things we are also working on. Perhaps we will see a mechanism. Can the process be completed through Aqar or not? There is no definitive information, but this is also among the things we are looking at. I hope a government entity does not take it and implement it. I hope it is made available to other entities to work on it, or at least there is integration between the efforts, because it will open other opportunities in the real estate sector. Does the broker face challenges? Today, honestly, the biggest challenge with the broker is not a challenge for him, but a challenge for the end consumer. As a platform, we always face the broker's dealings, whether the broker is someone who is being used for impersonation to advertise on the platform, or the broker is unresponsive, uncooperative, or his method of dealing is not good, or he falls short. We, as a platform, are usually blamed by people, "You let him advertise. You activated him. You did it." This is the challenge we face with the broker. We expect that in the end, the market is growing, and market growth means increased returns, and increased returns mean increased competition. If competition increases, the broker will be forced to improve his work, or a better broker will come and take his market share. He will arrange himself in the end. But the conclusion is that as much as possible, the broker can provide better service, display his offerings better, his unit is presented well, accurately. All of these improve his customer's experience and also improve his customer's experience. Platform. So, if we summarize it in three points. The first point is market understanding by everyone, not just the investor or trader. The second point is government entities. Understanding market needs, correct. Or government companies specifically. Areas of intersection with government companies. The last is the quality of the broker and his development, and providing the quality of service delivery. We are talking about the broker because he is the main thing at Aqar, but it applies to all services. The quality of service delivery, raising the level of service quality. These are observations compared to other countries. The level of service, good, bad, and high, exists. But in Saudi Arabia, perhaps the high level is not available. The very high level is not available. This is the gap that exists in the market today. We always talk about challenges, and we want to talk about opportunities now. Today, with the vision and the great development and rapid market growth, it certainly provides great opportunities. Even I visited, God willing.

Your headquarters here, a year ago, God bless you. >> So the difference, ماشاء الله, is huge from, I mean, from a year to a year. >> May God increase you. >> Amen. >> When I first came last year, one of the people with you, our brother Mustafa bin Ahmed, may God give him health, came to me and said, "This first section is the daily rental section." >> Yes. >> So I said, "Now, real estate rental, which is the recognized rental, or the selling platform, or the known advertising platform, its entry now into daily rental. I'd like you to tell me about the opportunities with the possibilities available in the market today, and also the daily rental market, if it's among the available opportunities, especially today, we have the World Cup 2034, we have Expo, we have projects that have been announced in the coming days. Where can we go or where can we head?" >> Of course, the booking service, which was booking. Today, our focus has started to be more on slightly longer-term bookings, meaning for weeks or months, while maintaining the daily. It's truly an opportunity. A service launched about two years ago with real estate. It has completed two years now, around December 2022, we launched it. The idea behind it was that we saw what was available in real estate for daily, weekly, and monthly rental. We wanted to provide a better service to the customer with a different experience, so that the customer doesn't have to worry about the unit, whether it's transferred to me or not, when are you coming, etc. We can manage the process better. The rental sector has grown significantly, whether you're talking about residential hospitality units or even the units that were common with us, chalets and rest houses, etc., for short occasions. So we saw an opportunity in it, honestly. The customer is already there, the customer who is looking is there, the customer who provides the service or offers the service. Today, there are regulations, perhaps announced a while ago, in this sector. The Ministry of Tourism's focus is starting to be greater on the sector and the insistence that service providers must all be licensed and not advertise on platforms if they don't have licenses for their units. There is a regulation, for example, for rest houses and chalets, that only companies and institutions can provide the service, not individuals anymore. All of this changes the sector and should, therefore, raise the quality of what is offered. Of course, with every change, there must be challenges, but in the end, the quality of what is offered improves significantly and becomes better. So we saw this, as I told you, as an opportunity, an additional complementary product to real estate, especially when we talk about monthly rentals. Perhaps many people don't know, but today there are a large number of units offered on real estate for monthly rental. And we are seeing growth, ماشاء الله. We can't believe the numbers that are coming in, but this indicates that there is a need and demand. And this goes back to the point of challenges. If there is a need, you will be amazed by the results. If there is no need, you will be fighting the tide. In the end, the sea won't carry you, so you will get tired. And we are continuing our journey of launching products in one way or another. But at the level of opportunities today, the companies operating in this sector are very numerous, very many, as platforms. Besides the platforms, there is still a challenge in the field of operators, and we are talking here about operators for individuals, and even operators who own units and operate them. A large number of individuals have bought one, two, or three units as investors and face a challenge in operating these units. There are companies whose business model is based on profit sharing in operation. I take a fee from you, and if I bring you profits, we share the profits. The existing challenge is that the market has not yet covered the supply. The number of units is growing, of course. The growth of units is linked to the expectations of shareholders in the market. Everyone expects that with the number of projects available, with tourism targets, with seasons, etc., all of these are bringing visitors, whether we are talking about visitors from other cities to Riyadh, or from outside the Kingdom to all regions of the Kingdom with its various events. All of this is bringing high demand and you see high occupancy rates. The exhibitions that are happening frequently today are bringing high occupancy rates. So the demand for this sector, for the hospitality sector, is very high. And these are the sectors that intersect between tourism technologies and real estate technologies. And here, there is always a push and pull. This belongs to you, but it is part of the things where we see intersection and opportunity, just as I mentioned. This is one of the areas where there is definitely an opportunity, related to monthly and annual operation. These are areas where we see opportunity in property management in general, whether we are talking about long-term or short-term, or commercial and residential operation. Notice the operators, I'm talking about the operational aspect and property management. I'm talking about the operational aspect and brokerage itself. There is a reluctance from us towards operational sectors, always, even though these sectors usually >> profits, their profits are good. Of course, there are challenges, as is natural. They are based on excellent cash flows, but the demand is so high that there is an opportunity today. Tomorrow, competition will increase, profitability will decrease, we understand, but the opportunity exists today. No one can set the prices you want, no one will compete with you because there are no competitors. No one will bargain with you because there are no competitors, especially if you provide excellent service. So these are things where we always say there are opportunities, and we don't see anything moving in them. So all of these have opportunities. The daily rental sector, its only problem, perhaps, that we are seeing with hosts, is operation. The one who has one or two units manages his affairs. As soon as he discovers that the sector is attractive and enters two, three, four units, he starts to discover that he cannot operate. This is the need we were talking about earlier. It is clearly present. It is very easy to reach these hosts in one way or another. They are present on most platforms. You can reach them in one way or another and create a profitable business model for you and for them. For example, hosts used to come to us and say, "Take the unit and operate it, not ours to operate, but to this extent." The need is there, but I mean to this extent the need is there that they are looking for anyone to operate the unit for them and share the profit. Since the investor is bearing the cost of the unit, the cost for you is only the cost of operation. So it increases your margins and increases your motivation. >> And today, real estate is working on this service? >> Today, yes, the daily booking service, or the booking service in general, is available today on real estate. There are a large number of units. The growth in it is frankly terrifying from year to year, unexpected. What happened in '24, personally, I didn't expect the numbers it reached. >> We want, if there are numbers or >> growth rate, for example, from '23 to '24 until today. We haven't even finished the month yet, and we've exceeded approximately 250%. ماشاء الله. >> Emphasizing perhaps a couple of points. Why is the number unexpected for us? >> We are not promoting the service. We are not spending on promoting the service. We don't want to anymore. It's not that we don't want to, it's that our focus was not on promoting the service. So it grew this growth without focusing on growth. This year, we have bigger plans to focus on marketing the service and promoting it to hosts so they know it exists on real estate and how to benefit from it, and to researchers so they know how to access units in the best way and develop the existing services. Frankly, we have a big plan this year for the service, for the booking service. >> So today, I am a real estate owner, the real estate application operates for me? >> We don't operate. Today, we are actually a platform for managing bookings. We have a license from the Ministry of Tourism. We are licensed by the Ministry of Tourism in the activity of booking hospitality units. So we manage the unit booking process, we manage the process of receiving financial payments from the host to the guest, transferring them to the host, because there are conditions and requirements from the Ministry of Tourism on this aspect. But we do not operate the unit directly. But this is what we say: the market has a need from hosts for companies to undertake the operation. >> So, to clarify, by operation, we mean maintenance, cleaning? >> Maintenance, cleaning, guest management, guest check-in, guest check-out, cleaning before and after the guest, and unit maintenance if it needs maintenance. And if there are additional services that may be offered in the unit or not. Daily cleaning, for example, during the guest's stay, laundry or ironing if during the guest's stay, because the guest is very broad. The services provided in the units. Some units almost offer you hotel service. Someone comes every day to clean your unit. You want laundry and maintenance, you want laundry and ironing of clothes. Someone comes to serve you daily. So it varies from service to service, from level to level. And this sector, as large as its size is, there is a great disparity in services. Some units focus on the lowest price, lowest services, and have customers they target. I want to pay the lowest price because I'm staying for a short period and leaving. Some go to the sector, no, I want the highest level of service. Everything is available in the market, and there is a need in all these categories. >> And I expect a great need. >> And a great need, a great need in all categories. There is no category I can tell you is saturated, whether you want to invest. There is still a need. Of course, the sector's returns have differed since the sector's inception in the Kingdom, but its returns are still good if you can achieve an excellent occupancy rate. And today, you don't need to work hard for the occupancy rate. If your unit is good and your price is reasonable, the demand is very high. The demand is much higher than >> And you have the real estate application, and you have the real estate application, and the entire sector. I'm not just saying this because of the real estate application. The entire sector has numerous platforms that tell you that the demand is high. But we all want more supply. We all say, "Come, expand the market. The market can handle it, and there is a great need for it, thank God." >> Okay, I'd like to go with you in a slightly different direction. >> I expect the whole world, especially Saudi Arabia specifically, in the past periods, we are witnessing a great transformation in the matter of exhibitions and conferences in the Kingdom. >> Correct. >> And if we talk about the most famous or, say, the closest two exhibitions that were present, it was PropTech Saudi and Cityscape. I want to talk about PropTech specifically because today it specializes in real estate technology. I attended last year, I attended this year, and last year there was great development, big differences in companies entering the market significantly. They will come to us shortly regarding the challenges of technology companies. How do you see exhibitions and conferences related to real estate technology or real estate in general? And do they have a positive impact on us today? Some say, "Why are you marketing on this scale? Why is the number of visitors?" For example, in sports exhibitions in Mulham, so that it can accommodate large numbers. The high organization, the high marketing. Today, we saw the largest auction, I don't know if in the Middle East or something like that, in Cityscape. All of this process, is it worth the work being done, or is there another opinion? >> You see, we must understand the current situation and the objective in order to place these events in their context. >> Does the current market size require an exhibition the size of Cityscape? Yes, it actually does. We didn't have exhibitions. It's not that we increased them. We didn't have exhibitions. There were a very small number of exhibitions with a narrow and mostly local scope. Cityscape, its targeting is not just local. Part of it is that I want the customer who is in Saudi Arabia, whether he is Saudi or part of it. No, I want to tell the world that Saudi Arabia is an excellent real estate investment destination. This is one of the objectives. So you have to look at the event in its context, what is its objective? When, let me go back to PropTech Saudi. We can return to Cityscape because it's different. PropTech Saudi is part of the initiatives of the Real Estate General Authority to form the real estate technology sector. They started with the hub, or Saudi PropTech Hub, or the Saudi Real Estate Technology Center. And the goal is for the authority to try to explore the sectors and areas that have services that can serve the Saudi real estate market, so that it can be incubated, have a sandbox, or an experimental environment to test the service. And then, if there are regulations that need to be amended, they are amended to suit the need of the market. So, in principle, it's an excellent initiative. The goal of the summit was, a large part of it, attendees from outside the Kingdom, technology companies. Come and explore what's in Saudi Arabia, opportunities, in addition to local attendance. I might focus on global attendance because in the service sector, we have a weakness. We need to bring advanced services from other countries to accelerate the transformation required of us. Ultimately, these companies are not staying in Saudi Arabia for hundreds of years, but there is an experience that may not be available today in the country. How can we benefit from the experiences of others and accelerate the growth of the sector? Because this is our ultimate goal for the sector, that the Saudi real estate sector becomes competitive in all countries of the world. The PropTech summit, for me, was one of the distinguishing signs that show where the gap is today in the market and the companies that are present today, which is the best offering in the real estate technology sector and the companies that offer services today, so that I can first gather all these companies. They may merge with each other, they may cooperate with each other, or the beneficiaries of the real estate sector may discover services they don't know about, which technology can serve them with. It has many benefits. It's a sector where the PropTech summit is not primarily for the end consumer, but for those working in the sector. It's an important event that helps connect stakeholders in the sector, whether we are talking about the legislator or regulator like the Real Estate Authority, developers, marketers, real estate technology companies themselves, investors. These were not brought together before. So this type of exhibition accelerates the communication process, based on which products, companies, and investments are built, and so on. In this sector, in terms of need, we see it as a very positive step for the sector. Let's go back to Cityscape. Cityscape is primarily a sales exhibition. It has versions in other countries, but the idea was to put Riyadh, put Saudi Arabia on the map regarding real estate exhibitions. To showcase the size and purchasing power in the market, to showcase the size of the market and the opportunities available in it, and where we want to go. Today, for example, when you look at the market size, the figures vary. These may be a point of discussion because it is one of the real challenges of the market. The market's transactions are approximately, depending on who you ask, but let's take the average, around 70 billion dollars, or about 300, or 320, 340 billion Saudi riyals. When compared to nearby local markets, which may be smaller in population density, they are four or five times larger than the Saudi market, mainly due to foreign investment, investors buying and selling and trading real estate well. So you effectively have a large amount of money allocated for real estate investment from investors outside their countries. You are trying to attract them, trying to say that the market has demand, purchasing power, distinguished projects, distinguished real estate, an investment-friendly environment. We are talking about the efforts of the Ministry of Investment and investment regulations in an integrated system that entices the investor to put their money in Riyadh instead of anywhere else in the world, or in the Kingdom in general, because they will get the highest return. This is reflected in the real estate sector, development increases, movement increases. And this might be reflected in a way that contradicts people's perception. This might be reflected in the price movement being more attractive to everyone. Today, the abundance of supply at some point might have led to a imbalance in prices. Excessive demand doesn't necessarily lead only to an increase in price. Sometimes it can lead to developers being enticed to build because there is liquidity and movement in the market. So the supply increases, and the price becomes, let's say, affordable. This is an effect that people might be afraid of, thinking, "No, foreign investment means everything will get more expensive." Not necessarily. Foreign investment might mean we have solved the problem of abundant supply because we have provided higher demand, and therefore the price will be, at least in certain areas, more attractive to the end consumer. >> Regarding the companies participating today in PropTech or Cityscape, I'd like you to tell me about the gains that any participating company gains. What guidance can we offer to companies participating in such exhibitions today? The presence of the company is a mirror for it. Today, I see the company, I see its booth, I see the service providers. So sometimes I get a positive impression or a negative impression. >> Correct, correct. >> So what is the impact of its participation today as a company in such exhibitions? This is one. Second, what guidance, what advice can I give to any company participating? >> In real estate technology, you are ultimately, annual events like these are an opportunity to showcase where you were and where you are now, because this is a very influential factor in startups. Your valuation largely depends on what you have done. If you participated last year and this year, and last year and this year, you are the same, the same product, the same sales, the same partners, this is a negative indicator. So you usually celebrate your achievements from year to year, present them to interested parties. See, in the first year, we did this, from this to this. We launched a new product, we partnered with A, B, and C, we achieved sales growth of X amount. This is one of the most prominent events or gains because it is effectively a media event. You are saying, "I operate in this sector. I have achieved these accomplishments." Therefore, the recipient sees a company that appears excellent, even if they are a customer who will buy. But they see you growing, so their trust in you increases over time. A customer who saw you as smaller might hesitate to deal with you. If they see you growing, they might say, "I'm still small, but I'll take the risk because you're growing. Let me get in with you while you're small and benefit more from dealing with you." For example, I'm talking here about companies that can offer services to customers. This is one of the biggest gains because, for me, there are companies I knew before PropTech and I know them after PropTech. Some people's value has increased for me, and some people's value has not, because some people have proven that they have done something from X to Y, and some have not. So if you don't grow, you are decreasing. So this is perhaps one of the most prominent gains. It's that you can reach a large number of visitors as a company, who can see your progress, and this is what creates opportunities in these events. Ultimately, an investor might come who hears about you, sees you, sees progress, so it might be an investment opportunity for them if you are looking for an investor. Or a partner might come, one of the potential clients, who might be a large client. They saw you the first time, saw you the second time, started to be convinced by the product, convinced by the founders, convinced by the offering, saw the company's progress, which opens up a commercial opportunity for them. They might partner with you, they might sign a contract with you, and so on. We still have a small market size, so I don't want to make the opportunity too big by saying it opens the door for acquisition and so on. But with time, we will reach that stage. We will reach a stage where, for example, at Aqar, we invest in the sector, we invest in real estate technology, and we have invested in three companies and a fourth company we are investing in soon, and a company we are investing in again after the first investment. So, for us, one of the places where we discover the sector is at exhibitions like this. >> Is investment in real estate technologies considered promising and profitable? >> It depends. It depends from person to person and from strategy to strategy. For us at Aqar, our investment strategy is related to which companies' services are complementary to Aqar, or can I serve them through Aqar? I don't invest in a company that has no intersection with Aqar in any way, at least for now. In our strategy, our target is this product. Either I can offer it through Aqar, and thus the product and my investment grow together, or a product that I can offer in one way or another through Aqar. So this is attractive to me, not just for investment, but for keeping up with the market and offering new services to real estate customers, and so on. From the investors' perspective, is investing in real estate technology attractive? Investing in technology in general is a high-risk investment, but it has high returns. If you invest in the right company at the right time, you get returns you don't get in any other investment. If you miss one of the two conditions, you and what is written for you, profitability, you cannot control it. But it is a high-risk sector. I see some people being lenient in investing in technology because they hear about company X that brought investor Y who put 10,000 and it became 10 million. This is one out of 10,000 investments. Not all of them will be like that. So one must be careful. But whoever has a strategic interest, if you are a real estate development company, or a real estate investor, or a real estate professional with an interest in the sector, it is natural for you to see the sector as close to you. You are better able to evaluate opportunities than someone who has no relation to the sector. You can see where there might be a disadvantage that you are too immersed in the sector and don't see anything new. But ultimately, you have knowledge, information, and relationships that might be the driving force or the distinguishing factor in the company you invest in. So if you are in the sector, it is natural that you are better able to make investments within the sector. And you hear, if you hear about real estate professionals entering technology, there are many sad stories because either they don't understand how this field works, the technology field. They are seasoned real estate professionals, but in the real estate technology field, their work is like real estate, and they expect it to be an investment that works like real estate and real estate development. This usually suffers, and usually, over time, they understand. Ultimately, it's not a difficult lesson. If you know how to evaluate technology companies and do your calculations correctly, and you have a preliminary vision of where this company is going in a year, two, or three years, you can get very attractive investments. Because, for example, just to give an idea of the numbers, the estimated size of the real estate technology market today is approximately 3 to 4 billion riyals, according to valuations. It is expected to double within five years, expected to become approximately 8 billion riyals within eight years. So, where will the additional 4 billion riyals come from? It's an increase in the value of the sector from existing companies and new companies. So, in terms of opportunity, the opportunity exists, but it's about choosing the right opportunity and understanding the challenges that prevent the opportunity from succeeding. Not everything that looks good on paper succeeds in reality, especially in real estate. I, from my personal experience, this might be a personal story. When I first came to Aqar, about two years and three or four months ago >> Where did you come from? >> I came from technology companies. I was the Chief Technology Officer in more than one company, in HungerStation and in Hala, and others. >> We should have introduced ourselves from the beginning, but we jumped right in. It's not a problem. We can conclude with it to get into the details, but what I mean is that I came with dreams and ideas based on my experience in the sectors I came from. The challenge I faced in the real estate sector is that many of these ideas are good on paper but don't work. Why don't they work? This is a long question. You need to take the idea and understand why it didn't work. Is there real demand for it or not? And is your ability to move the customer in this sector, in a product like Aqar, an advertising product, the same as any other application that offers a different service? These are the differences that people don't understand and don't grasp well. Why don't you try it? I have gone through this experience personally. So this changes your way of working and your way of thinking. Today, for example, advertising platforms, I always tell my colleagues in the company, "We are actually a content platform. We are a content platform, first and foremost, because what I am actually offering to customers is content. They come to browse advertisements as if they are coming to do anything else. It's not an operations platform. It's not a platform where the customer comes to buy from it." Here, my relationship with the customer and my relationship are different. I can offer different services. And I am a content platform. Not my content. I'm not a newspaper where writers write. My content is the intermediary in any place where they advertise with me. So even my ability to control the quality of the content offered and the dealings is high. And all of this brings challenges. That's why, for example, when you compare with global models, I'll give an example of global models to clarify this point about understanding the market. When you compare someone who says, "Anything in Saudi Arabia compared to Zillow in America is wrong, immediately wrong, a big mistake." The American market is based on the existence of an intermediary, a seller's intermediary and a buyer's intermediary. This is the basis of transactions in America. Zillow sells to a seller's intermediary. It doesn't sell to a buyer's intermediary. The buyer sells to a buyer's intermediary. It doesn't sell to a seller's intermediary. Its product is based on you being a buyer's intermediary. I will bring you the buyer, and therefore I will sell you my services in exchange for a share of the commission you received. There, the buyer's intermediary and the seller's intermediary, each takes about 2.5%. The commission can reach 5-6% from 2 to 3%. This is very important information. It's not like the Saudi market at all. We, the buyer's intermediary, are almost non-existent here. The one who takes the commission is the seller's intermediary. The seller's intermediary, regardless of whether he takes it from the buyer, is the seller's intermediary. The concept of a buyer's intermediary, where someone looks for you, you tell him, "I want X, Y, Z, W," he looks for you and negotiates with the buyer on your behalf, gets you the best price, makes sure the building has no problems. Many services are not available here. So when you compare, you can't compare this product to any product in Saudi Arabia or the world. The buyer representation model, which is buyer representation, is almost only present in America and I think Canada. The rest of the world doesn't have it. And this is what I mean: don't copy. Don't copy something that doesn't work. When you look at a model like Compass in America, a company called Compass, also valued at maybe 1.5 billion dollars, so these are all big companies. Zillow is a publicly traded company in the American market valued at 15 billion dollars, so these are not small companies. But I'm saying it's a different model. Compass, for example, as we said, is a large brokerage company. It has a website and offers brokerage solutions. It says, "Leave the companies, work with me. Come work with me, and I will give you..." And it has offices everywhere in America. It's a technology company, effectively. It's a brokerage company empowered by technology, and its valuation is 1.5 billion dollars. But the model is very different from Aqar. It's not what I'm doing, nor is it present in most other countries. The same growth is not present in Britain, I think there are a couple of companies. But this is what I mean by understanding the market. Don't copy when you don't understand. Copy beautiful ideas from abroad. Bring them to Saudi Arabia, no problem. >> Please. >> Adapt them and modify them. Yes, but understand the difference from Saudi Arabia and how it works in Saudi Arabia. >> Let's talk about the top three challenges, or would you like four, it's okay. The most prominent challenges facing real estate technology companies in their various fields. >> It might be points I'm repeating from previous talk because they are important: product-market fit, or what's called product-market fit. >> Specifically for you today, for example, I have a problem with operation. >> I'm entering, I need technologists, for example. I don't have. >> There are general ideas about problems for technology companies in general, not specific to real estate technology companies. Perhaps the most prominent is technical competence. Finding technical competence is the biggest challenge. But if you ask me, I'll repeat the first point because I see it as very important. Because many people bear the costs of developing a product and then discover that the product has no demand. It solves problems number two, three, and four, but it doesn't solve problem number one. And this is the biggest challenge I see in the market, and it's the biggest reason, in my opinion, for companies to fail, more than technical resources and technical competencies. You find them, in the end, if your product is good and there is demand, it's millions to solve it. But if your product is not good, it won't save you. The first aspect, product-market fit, having a product that fits the market. I understand my product solves whose problem. Is this problem real? Is it confirmed by many parties? You ask a developer, you ask, etc. They all tell you the same thing: "Yes, this is indeed the problem. I want your product if it exists." You will find it. I went through more than one product in my experience. A prince tells you, "How much do I pay?" It's very clear that there is a need because you said something he didn't think of, but when you said it, he said, "Oh, why isn't this available?" So this is the first point that faces technology products in general, especially if they are made by technologists. A technologist, perhaps, suffers from the same issue sometimes. The technical solution, for us, the existence of technology is enough for success. But because it's a technical product, because it's an application. So if it's an application, does it solve a real problem? Is there demand from the customer? Can it only be solved by you, or do you offer it at a much better price, or with much better service, or in a much shorter time, or not? In most cases, no. You find I have a nice application, then what? What does the application do for me? And this is a problem because the customer is not, I mean, it's a marketing problem at the beginning. They don't understand the customer's need. So they don't know the product market. On the assumption, of course, that the final product solves a real problem, and perhaps the bigger problem is that they don't understand the problem at all, but they have something that looks good. They say, "I want to succeed with this thing that looks good." And this has happened to us many times: the product's only advantage is that it's technologically advanced. That's not enough if you don't have the ability to sell it, and the end customer doesn't want to buy it at a price higher than its production cost. And we have seen this in excellent products, but the customer is not willing to pay more than 200 riyals per year for it. So, 200 riyals per year, the number of customers in the market doesn't cover the company's costs, let alone make a profit. It's not the time. At least you can say it's not the time. Either the market needs to grow, or you need to provide higher value so you can raise your price and the customer is convinced of this value. This is a point I know I've repeated many times, but many people actually ignore it to the extent that you find them working on the product for a year and a half, spending a significant amount of money. The product doesn't work, so they start the journey, "Let's change." Of course, this journey of change has its big challenges, psychologically, can you accept the change, or are you attached to the product you made? No, I'm not changing it. I'll make it succeed by force. The financial costs will be a long journey. But on the assumption that there is an excellent idea, more than one party tells you it's an excellent idea, in most cases, the challenges you will face from the beginning are the challenge of finding good technical people. There are many solutions, local and international. You can hire locally and hire abroad. There are many solutions, companies that provide you with this service. Deal with outsourcing companies. This is a challenge that exists in all technology sectors, frankly. Choosing the right technical partners, whatever their form: freelancer, employee, employee here, employee abroad, company here, company abroad, etc. This is one of the biggest challenges that doesn't usually kill the company, but it significantly slows down its work. So I say it's not the primary challenge. You can find people to help you if the first product exists and there is indeed, it's clear where the product is heading in terms of growth, in terms of features and ideas in it. This is the first challenge. There is a challenge related to regulations sometimes. There is a challenge related to whether this product is subject to regulation under any system or not. Sometimes being subject to regulation is a negative, and sometimes it's positive, depending on the sector and the product. Does it fall under the regulations of any government entity? For example, participatory shares, do they fall under the Capital Market Authority or not? What is your business model? Is it regulated or not? Finance sectors, do you fall under the Central Bank's regulations or not? Real estate services in general are all subject to the regulations of the Real Estate General Authority. Is there a specific regulation for your product? Is it subject to the Real Estate General Authority or not? Here the questions begin. >> Now, a complete section on regulations. >> So these might be challenges that prevent you from working. Competition with the government sector, which are government-owned companies, not a government sector, can sometimes be a competitive factor. >> It's influential. For example, I recall in 2022 and 2023, more than one company approached us providing rent payment solutions. Their product was essentially just rent payment. We provide solutions for the owner on how to collect rent amounts from the tenant. And we were working on a product like this. At the end of 2023, the Real Estate General Authority announced that rent payments would be through the platform. So we closed our product, and they came out of the market. This is an example of when regulations are a challenge. So these are perhaps the top three points. The fourth point is related to investment. Getting investment. But in my opinion, if you find a solution to the first challenge, which is that your product is suitable and your market is good, the fourth problem, investment, getting or accessing suitable investors for the product or company you are working with, solves itself. But it is usually a challenge if your product is mediocre or has no clear need, no clear growth, no clear progress in the product. Usually, investors' appetite is not high. Why should I be interested in you? There's nothing clear about where your product is going. So these are perhaps four basic things. The first is the core of entrepreneurship. It's the first thing: finding the right product. It's easy to say, "Find the right product." How do I find the right product? How do I modify my product? How do I take this? It's a sea, but I focus on it because most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You don't know the product. 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So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't know the product. You assume this is the product, but you haven't actually reached the certainty that this is the correct product that will grow, that will solve the problem excellently. So this is what I focus on because, from my conversations with them, most people underestimate it. They say, "I know what the product is." No, you don't

The property, and how much I can evaluate it, I would say it is somewhat acceptable, not too big, not too small. Most companies operating in the sector do not disclose their numbers, so I don't have a clear picture of them. However, if we consider the advertising sector and consider it the cornerstone of the market, given that it is the largest sector, all other companies are smaller. For example, regarding the property, we are الحمد لله (God be praised) a profitable company for approximately six years. >> Mashallah (God has willed it). >> This is one of the excellent things. >> There are numbers I cannot disclose, frankly, but >> The excellent things are that our growth has been continuous over these six years. >> This year, our growth is double last year's growth, for example. >> Double last year. By how much? Double last year. But by how much? >> We want to get something out. >> Of course, I will give an example of something that clarifies how good the market is, الحمد لله (God be praised). Last year was a difficult year, let's say, because it was the first year the system was applied, and no one knew exactly what the impact would be. >> From 24 and 23? >> 23. >> 23 was a difficult year because it was the first year the brokerage system was actually applied to everyone, and the grace period ended. No one knew where the market was heading, frankly. We were, I personally, one of my biggest fears that year was that I had no expectation of what would change in the property's income based on the regulation. Because, ultimately, the regulation touches the cornerstone of the property, which is brokerage and advertising. The broker must be licensed, and the advertisement must be licensed. الحمد لله (God be praised), by the grace of God, after all that, that year we had growth. We launched new products that didn't exist. These new products became approximately 20-25% of the company's income. >> These are all things that were not expected, but الحمد لله (God be praised), through the team's efforts, we were able to turn a challenge into an opportunity for growth. We continued this year, our growth this year is double last year's growth, which had challenges. This is also an indicator, first, of the market for us. We see that the market has recovered and dealt with the regulation positively. It didn't take long to overcome the challenges of the regulation. There are still challenges, there is still a shortage of supply in some places, there are still problems with awareness among certain types of brokers in certain areas. But the core of the market has overcome the challenging phase. Today, how do we reach people we haven't reached? A challenge, for example, for brokers with landlords, but they still have fears about the system. How can we overcome this? But generally, I see that the impact of the regulations on the sector has been positive. >> There are things people don't know, but perhaps I'll say them now for sharing. In 2020 or 2021, at Aqar, we launched a service called brokerage contracts. The idea, in short and concisely, was something similar to what the authority has today, but it was an effort by Aqar. We had the owner or the broker able to make a brokerage contract. We brought in a legal office, created a brokerage contract between two parties, and it became available to customers through Aqar. We didn't find, frankly, a high level of interaction with it. >> The market wanted to work its way. So, may God grant success to the Sultan, not to the Quran, but forcing it proved that it was indeed, frankly, >> if it was a successful step, and if I didn't have the ability to impose it on people, it was one of the important steps. Another point, for example, and I don't mean to respond to the length, but to clarify what happens. Many people ask Aqar and ask the authority for authentication with Nafath. I always tell people, they are surprised. We have been requiring every advertiser on Aqar since 2020, not 23, 22, or 21, since 2020, to authenticate with Nafath. So Nafath is not the solution to the problem that people say, "Do Nafath so it will be solved." It is not the solution. Whether I'm talking about issues of cover-up or others, we at Aqar have been requiring every advertiser for four years to authenticate, and their authentication must be with a Saudi identity. >> So, this is one of the things that existed before the system, that existed at Aqar. I see that we have benefited from applying it and trying it, and we are comfortable before being forced. The regulations, for example, we are among the first platforms to comply. We are not the first platform licensed after the system, not since we are the first platform licensed by the system. We are probably the only platform that actually complied from day one with the system and closed all advertisements. >> Because it had a correct base it was following. >> But we closed. What I mean is, whoever remembers Aqar, I remember 7/17/2023, Aqar opened, no advertisements, zero number of advertisements. We were the only platform that closed. I remember this from that time. The rest of the platforms, for whatever reason they chose, did not apply it from day one. >> So, this is one of the things related to challenges and how we addressed them. We decided to take the risk. In the end, the regulation is coming. I cannot stop the regulation. I want to interact with it, deal with it, and fix it as quickly as possible. This was our idea in compliance. I will not change the regulation. I will not stop the regulation. So, my interest is to deal with it as quickly as possible to discover how to solve problems and deal with them. And this is what actually happened, الحمد لله (God be praised). We benefited greatly from the regulations. We were able to provide services that no one else provided except Aqar. We are ahead of most of our competitors in this sector. Today, we have approximately over 80% of the licensed advertisements in the Real Estate General Authority registered on Aqar. Our closest competitor, as far as we know, is less than 25%. So we are talking about more than three times our competitors, without details. This is in terms of market size. The market is growing. The number of licensed advertisements is growing, one way or another, from time to time. We might give numbers so people can imagine what happened after the regulation, so I can comment on the size of the sector and where it's going. Before the regulation, we had approximately an average of 30,000 to 36,000 advertisements displayed daily on the platform. Today, we have over 100,000 advertisements available on the platform, approximately a year and a half after the regulation. Where did the difference go? A part of the difference is people who have a challenge with the system, a broker who cannot get a contract from the owner, an owner who does not want to go through this experience, does not understand, is not sufficiently aware, and so on. And a part was solved, frankly, to a large extent, after the regulations, which was related to copying advertisements. There was a challenge, and it still exists. Whoever has dealt with the brokerage market sees it. At Aqar, on Twitter, and on WhatsApp. >> The broker who gets a good offer goes and copies it and publishes it elsewhere. >> This is one of the challenges that still exists today at Aqar. He licenses an advertisement today. A broker commits a violation. He licenses an advertisement now from the authority. His data is incorrect. So, here is a challenge: this broker, before, used to copy an advertisement from Aqar, and no one would hold him accountable. I actually don't have the ability to hold him accountable. The most I can do at Aqar is close the advertisement. Today, he went and issued a brokerage contract with false data and issued an advertisement license with false data to copy an advertisement he received. So, today, there is the ability to hold him accountable, whether he personally committed the practice or he enabled someone to cover up for someone, meaning he covered up for someone and enabled them. I see this as one of the positives. Over time, this practice will decrease with the ability, meaning with the increased accountability of individuals. >> Now, regarding legislation and the impact of cover-up and forgery, if you allow me, I will conclude the last point. We have always talked about the idea of saturating the real estate technology sector in all its fields. We want success stories that you have gone through or lived, and on the other hand, failure stories, and quick glimpses. Quick glimpses of their details in the sector. >> Yes, specifically the real estate technology sector. >> I will cheat, frankly. For me, if you ask me what is the biggest success story in the real estate technology sector, I will cheat and say Aqar, and I will tell you why. I will say Aqar and mention another story, but to be >> Aqar is a bit old now. We want something new. >> In recent years. >> Even when I say Aqar, I don't mean the beginning of Aqar. I'm talking even about launching new products. But I will give another example besides Aqar. >> We want you to wear another hat. >> Yes, I will wear another hat. I will frankly talk about a sector that we believed in to the extent that we launched the service and then invested in companies operating in this sector because we saw that it actually addresses a need that exists in the market today. And a product that was truly not available in the world, no one copied it. A product for the local market, a need that exists in the local market, which is the tenant payment product or the monthly rent product. There is a need in the market that no one was significantly fulfilling. There are property management companies that take monthly fees, and there are owners who rent monthly and for three months. But there wasn't a product for me personally who cannot pay the rent all at once or in two installments, and I want to pay my rent monthly. This is a need in the market that no one was covering. At the beginning of the year or the end of last year, several companies entered this sector, and they all see it. Of course, the number of companies that entered this sector is over ten. Each one entered from a different angle. Some entered from the perspective of financing, saying, "I will finance the rent contract." Banks launched rent contract financing products. Some companies entered from the perspective of "I will rent and re-rent." So, a group of models. >> Which company impressed you the most? >> The model we created and the companies we invested in are the companies based on the model "I will rent and re-rent." For us, it is not financing. It is closer to real estate investment. I see myself paying 50,000 for this property and renting it for 600,000, but I will take my rent monthly. So, it is not financing because there is no cash actually moving between the parties. >> But it is a product in the end. There are challenges. There is no record. There is no ability to, meaning, there is no credit record for tenants. This is one of the challenges. So, we started coming up with solutions. How can I assess a person's financial solvency? Is he able to pay? Is he able to repay? Is he unable to repay? >> This created an opportunity in the sector. We said, we initially saw that we would enter this sector and provide the service as Aqar, and we provided the service. Perhaps until this month, we are providing the service. >> For approximately 10 months. >> Which company did you invest in? >> Before the company, we provided the service for 10 months. We made a significant number of contracts. We rented, perhaps, to a significant number of customers. Then, approximately in August or September, we were seeing, because this is a product that requires significant financial resources, because you can rent, meaning you are renting and paying the owner in advance. So, there was an internal discussion: should we seek investment or get a loan for that amount and operate it, and so on? At that time, we saw two companies. We saw more than one company, frankly. They already existed, but we wanted to compete at the beginning of the sector. When we entered, understood its challenges, problems, and the nature of its business model, we saw two companies, which are Ijar and another company. We haven't finalized with them yet until the round is completed. This month, God willing, it will be announced, and they will all be available on Aqar, so that the customer, from within Aqar, can apply to either of these two companies and get the service. >> A failure story? >> A failure story. It's not a failure story, but because I don't consider it a failure, the journey is still at its beginning, let's say. But it's also related to Aqar, because one of the investments we made, we had a vision at Aqar before investing. The same thing, before investing in something, we try to try it simply, understand it better. We had a challenge related to financing. Today, we have, for example, a partnership with Al Ahli Bank and a partnership with Al Rajhi Bank related to financing customers and applying for financing through the application. We saw that there was an opportunity in other markets that was not well-activated in Saudi Arabia related to how a customer gets the best financing suitable for his needs and financial situation. And we started thinking about how we could develop this product that would give the customer, let's say, the best possible offer in the market. This was the vision before entering the market. When we entered the market, we discovered that the matter is more complicated than you imagine, whether you are talking about the level of relationship with the bank, the level of relationship with financial institutions, what they want, how they want to work, whether your product is in their interest or not, whether they want to cooperate with you or not. And we found, for example, entities that do not want to deal with you. On the contrary, they don't want your product to work at all because they see themselves harmed by the product. And we invested in a company operating in this sector with the aim of creating this product. Did the product we wanted succeed? No. It proved that today it is not the right time in the market. And this is what I always mean on the same point, the point that you might imagine the product is beautiful, but when you go into the details, you discover that it doesn't work for many reasons that you won't know until you try. So, today, this company is changing its business model because the business model we saw before, we found another opportunity. It will be smaller, but in the short term, it will give this company the ability to negotiate with the customer better, God willing, in the future. And we will return. We are convinced that the final model exists in most world markets, but sometimes if you come a little early. >> You take the picture. Yes, meaning, if you come a little early, your product won't succeed, just because you came early. You have to wait two years until the market adjusts and that product becomes a product that has a greater need. >> You talked about legislation and what not. What is its impact today? Has it limited profits or increased them? Has it eliminated practices today in the application of Aqar and real estate technology in general? How was the impact? >> Look, the challenge we face, frankly, always in applying Aqar is that we are always on the front line, even in legislation. >> Which is >> We are on the front line. >> Yes. >> So, today, for example, a directive might come from the Real Estate General Authority to apply something specific, and when we apply it, the customer doesn't get angry at the authority. The customer gets angry at us because he sees, "You are the ones who did it. You tell me someone told you, someone told you. I don't care about that." >> It's only you. >> It's only you. I am your customer, and I am paying you. I paid, and I understand any criticism that might come from customers about this. But ultimately, we always tell customers, "We are a licensed platform by the authority. We are obligated to comply with the instructions and directives that come from the authority. It's not an option. It's not something we do or don't do as we please, whether it's with the Real Estate General Authority in the real estate sector or with the Ministry of Tourism in the hospitality booking services and other sectors we enter with any license." >> So, this is the biggest challenge. If you ask me what is the biggest challenge you face with customers, ultimately, it is this negative impact of applying the system. Part of it falls on you, even though it's not your fault. >> So, this is perhaps the biggest challenge. Does it affect profits? Naturally, it might affect profits. The way you deal with regulations and legislation certainly affects your ability to profit or not, because there is a restriction in the end. The system exists to restrict negative practices, and we do not deny that there were negative practices that brokers practiced through Aqar. We were fighting them, trying to prevent them, trying to stop them. But I cannot say there were no negative practices at Aqar. They exist in Aqar, just as they exist on the street, just as they exist on Twitter, just as they exist on TikTok, just as they exist on any medium. Ultimately, the violator is not intentionally violating at Aqar. He ultimately thinks that his interest is not achieved except by violating. >> Any behavior he has. So, everyone's role is to try to fight this as much as possible, each according to his role, just as the regulator's role, who has the authority to fine and hold accountable, is to control his violation, hold him accountable, and fine him. >> So, in terms of legislation, we saw an opportunity in the legislation, frankly, to build a product, and we built it. How many products for owners so they can advertise? This, for us, was the biggest gain from the system. The second gain is that the system has actually contributed to reducing fraud and manipulation. No one can deny this. The system has actually contributed to reducing fraud and manipulation. And the brokerage system, directly, the oversight difference, and the efforts of the Real Estate General Authority in following up on the fraud file, no one can deny that it has actually contributed to improving and reducing the harm. Has it eliminated it 100%? No, and it's difficult to eliminate it 100%, but there is a difference between a severe problem in the market and today it is very contained. The problem is contained and controlled much better than it was. Perhaps today the authority's challenges are different. I don't know if fraud is at the top of the agenda. But this is an indication that there has actually been a change, because fraud was the main issue in the real estate sector. Today, the problem and its voice have greatly diminished. >> So, this is its impact. >> We care about this because it affects us as a platform. As I said, we are on the front line. So, if there are fraudulent activities, certainly part of these activities are happening because customers reach this broker through Aqar, and therefore they think that Aqar is complicit with the broker, interacting with him, even if this is not true. >> So, for us, cleaning the market and improving the quality of the market reflects positively on us, just as applying the system reflects negatively on us. >> Okay, let me ask a question that we might have faced last week. We were at a casual event, and I had a quick interview with you on Snapchat, and then I received a huge number of questions and a huge number of, let's say, some points. Let's clarify them more. >> People say today that the Aqar application is perhaps enabling unlicensed individuals or non-Saudis. >> Correct. >> And today, the brokerage profession is a profession exclusive to Saudis. What can I respond to this question with a practical answer? >> Of course, there are >> This is perhaps the most frequent inquiry I receive, and we respond to it in two ways. First, let's come from the principle. Some people assume that Aqar's role is a regulatory body or an investigative body. I don't have that authority. I don't have that authority. I am required by the system to apply standards and procedures at Aqar. We are committed to these standards and procedures more than any platform in the Kingdom, without a doubt, without a doubt. I say this, and I know what is happening in the authority and in the market. We apply the system before it becomes a system because we are convinced that there is a problem. We do not deny that there is a problem today in Aqar, but I still say that a large part of these solutions are insufficient. Why are they insufficient? Because no matter how many digital solutions you apply, the fundamental problem has not been solved. A person enabled another person to impersonate him and advertise using that identity. This is the root of the problem. The root of the problem is not that someone is in Aqar or advertises with a sign or advertises anywhere. They are present on the street, even outside Aqar, in offices, even outside Aqar. How is this solved? The direct answer is that I do not have an answer today, nor is it my responsibility to solve the problem of cover-up in the market. If the authority or the regulatory body responsible for regulating the sector has any procedures that it believes will improve the sector, we will engage and discuss. Sometimes, procedures come from the authority, and we say this procedure is not useful, and we are not convinced of it, but we apply it. We apply the system. I have no problem if you are convinced that it will solve the problem. I will apply it, even though I am not convinced. And this, frankly, sometimes causes a challenge that I feel there is a lack of consultation with the market on solutions. I don't blame the authority; they have their reasons. But I don't feel that sufficient efforts are being made. Let's all sit at one table. Let's all discuss solutions. Sometimes, someone is under pressure due to a problem that occurred, and an action is taken to address that problem. What is its impact on the market as a whole? There is no time to look now. We will solve this problem. And this might lead to procedures that are not sound, that are not sound for the market. But let's return to the point of enabling cover-ups. I repeat and reiterate: are there today cover-ups in Aqar and outside Aqar who impersonate Saudi individuals to advertise and market, and they are unlicensed or not allowed to practice the profession according to the Ministry of Labor's regulations? Yes, there are. No one can deny this. Does Aqar enable them? This is an accusation. Those who say this are making an accusation. We are not facilitating anyone. But I say, honestly, when you say that Aqar is enabling, it means we are telling them how to benefit. We are actually not doing that. They are actually practicing a violating practice. I don't have the ability to control them. People are actually with them. Some people say, "Anyone who advertises with you, go and check their property and verify." I can't, people. Let's be logical. >> Even if, for example, the authority is not doing this and is issuing licenses, do you expect me to go and do it? >> Some suggestions are impractical and illogical. And I understand. I don't blame the person who wants a service and may be harmed by the existing practice. So, I don't blame him. But I say, if anyone has a logical, applicable solution, we will take the initiative, even if it's not mandatory, even if it's not the authority. We will take the initiative. And many things that have been applied in the market, which have harmed us, we have proposed them. Meaning, if I were looking for my purely financial interest, I would want to increase my income and charge people the maximum possible fees. My interest is not served by this, and I will not tell the authority, nor will I be forced to. And we have actually proposed it because we are trying to solve the problem. But honestly, to this day, we haven't found a solution. And there is a solution. There is a challenge related to controlling cover-ups. After all, the authority is not sleeping. They are not working. Controlling cover-ups is not an easy practice. It's not just that I call him and a Saudi answers me, and then I will arrest him and take him. People don't imagine the legal procedure for apprehension to prove a violation and hold the person accountable. It's not easy. So, as a platform, if someone answers me in Saudi, I can't say this person is a criminal, close his account, or close his advertisement. >> People need to understand these points. It's not a defense of the wrong practice. We all say it's a wrong practice, and we want to stop it and prevent it. But we must find logical solutions. We are trying to develop additional products that may contribute to solving this problem. Will it solve it 100%? No, I cannot promise anyone that it will solve it 100%. If it is solved 100% on the street, I guarantee that Aqar will be at the same level as the street or better. It will not be stealing the street's level. If you no longer see someone working simply on the street, then you can hold me accountable. >> The questions also. And among the most frequent questions received are: the advertisements on the Aqar application are largely fake. >> Okay, regarding advertisements that are considered fake, from what we are seeing in the market, there are two types of practices that people consider fake advertisements. One type of practice is when a broker advertises a correct, legal advertisement with correct information, and the unit is sold or rented, and the broker keeps the advertisement because he sees it as attractive. This is considered a practice that violates the real estate brokerage system. >> Because he wants to attract. >> Yes, so it's an attractive advertisement, and he wants to attract customers and direct them to other properties. And this is a practice that many people see. They say, "The property is not available on Aqar." >> Yes, we sold it. >> Exactly. This is a practice that violates the real estate brokerage system. The challenge today that exists on the platform is that we do not have information that it has been sold or rented. There were among the updates that will be launched on the Real Estate General Authority's platform and its connection with it regarding brokerage, that the advertisement license will be canceled. The platforms will be notified if the sale or rental is completed. This has not been applied yet. But if it is applied, it will solve this problem. So, the solution is not directly with us, and it will be with the Real Estate General Authority if this amendment is applied. The second point of fake advertisements is a practice similar to what we mentioned before, which is when a broker hears about or comes across a property that he sees as attractive to customers. In one way or another, he issues a misleading advertisement license, at the very least, if not with forged data. Either he convinces an owner to agree to the contract even though the data is incorrect, or he has a contract, so he issues a contract with himself and enters incorrect data, and so on. Procedures have been taken to identify this, but the problem still exists and is not fully resolved. For example, among the procedures applied on most platforms, on the advertisement page, the property's location data is displayed according to the deed. In this practice, the broker usually chooses a deed whose location does not match the advertisement. So, if you match the description of the deed with the advertisement, you will discover that the broker has manipulated it, or let's say, forged or misled the data of the property or the advertisement in the license. So, this second type, our problem with misleading advertisements is similar to our problem with advertisements from unlicensed brokers, or cover-ups, or others. It is the inability to verify the advertisement and the accuracy of the advertisement data, especially after licensing. What are the procedures we are working on? Regarding the first point, we are working on connecting with the real estate registry. This might serve only properties that have been transferred to the real estate registry, because there will be a service to display the data of real estate registry transactions within Aqar, and from this, we can know if there is an advertisement linked to a property for which a transaction has been completed. So, we can take action internally to close these advertisements. This is the first point. The second point, which is the second type of manipulation, its problem is that it is very difficult to control. So, we rely on customer complaints. If customers complain that the broker has nothing to do with the property, or they contacted him and he directed them to another property, or they contacted him and he said the property is not available, I have another property. Because the second practice is practiced for two purposes. Sometimes the broker wants to enter a deal and he has nothing to do with it. So, he saw an advertisement with a real broker and liked it. So, he wants to bring a client, either by convincing the broker to split the commission, or he jumps over the broker and goes to the owner and says, "I brought a client, give me the commission instead." This is one possibility. The other possibility is that he is not bringing the property because it is not strange, but he will sell you another one. In both cases, the procedures we can apply within the platform to limit both problems are to significantly improve the complaints. In both cases we mentioned, these are all violations of the system. So, the complaint should be to the authority that a broker has a practice that violates the provisions of the system, and it will be controlled according to its legal procedures. >> Okay, today your role as real estate technology companies has a significant impact on the market, and surely today the authority or the concerned parties aim to succeed the experience and even succeed the companies. Today, the legislator is listening to you. What are the things you aspire to in the coming days, or wish to be applied, or even wish to convey your voice about to the decision-maker? >> Okay, I might have news that we are not publicizing yet, but it's related to conveying the sector's voice and the platforms' voice to the decision-maker in general. I am one of the candidates for the Real Estate Committee at the Riyadh Chamber of Commerce. >> The goal is for us to actually convey the sector's voice. Perhaps the committee is dominated by voices related to real estate development. So, this year was the beginning of the election system. So, the goal was to actually convey the voice of the platforms and the needs of this sector to various entities, not just the Real Estate General Authority. So, this is from one side. And from another side, we are actually facing a challenge today in the sector. It might be that the regulation is larger than the volume of work that exists in the sector. The authority is practicing its work, but it is more efficient than the rest of the market and faster than the rest of the market. If regulations move at a faster pace than the actual development that occurs in the market, it might lead to part of the imbalance we mentioned before, that the market is not synchronized. So, this is frankly one of the challenges. Sometimes the authority wants to solve most problems through regulation, and this is its role, and these are the tools it has. But you ask sometimes, how can the practice be solved without regulation? Because regulation also comes with the challenge that you cannot change it. It's not that it solves today's problem. This regulation has become a problem tomorrow. Changing the regulation is a process that takes time and is not simple. So, what do we do until it is amended? We will have to wait. So, this is what I mean. Sometimes, the haste in issuing regulations, especially in a market that changes at the same pace as the real estate market, might lead to the regulation being issued with either loopholes or problems, and it takes time to resolve them. And the market situation remains until these are resolved. This might cause a challenge. This is a point. The second point is that there are efforts, frankly, and to avoid all negative talk, there are efforts related to the real estate technology hub or the Real Estate Technology Center. Its goal is actually to listen to the sector. The goal was that we want to listen to the real estate technology sector, what do they need so that we can develop regulations and legislation or amend current legislation and regulations in a way that serves it. The last thing for me is to limit and curb the competition of companies owned by the public sector. Because, frankly, I see, I understand the point of view, and there have been many discussions on the matter. I understand the point of view that "I have a problem, and I want someone to solve it. No one in the private sector can solve it for me, so I will bring a government company to solve it." But it is possible to work on other mechanisms to stimulate the private sector in a way that allows it to implement the same procedure. Because today, all government companies are ultimately profit-making companies, and they will not undertake a project that is not profitable. So, it doesn't make much difference from the private sector. Why give a competitive advantage to one entity over another? It has its considerations and its points, but I believe that government entities are being burdened more than >> than the burden they should bear. The most prominent example is when you see people angry at Ejjar, for example. For any reason, someone had a problem with Ejjar. So, today, the anger flows from "I am angry at Ejjar. I am angry at the authority. I am angry at the ministry." The legislator actually chose for the process to be this way. I still believe that if the process were regulated in a way that the final service provider is not a government entity, I have ten companies providing rental services. I will impose regulations and conditions on you, and if the company violates them, I will punish it and hold it accountable. So, as a legislator, you have created tools that help you raise the quality of the market without bearing the consequences yourself. And I believe that the market wants, it's not that the market is not interested in opportunities. The market wants, it wants opportunities. If provided in a good way, I am convinced that in terms of revenue, I guarantee the revenues will not be less than the current situation. But in terms of service quality and customer satisfaction, we guarantee that we will reach something that does not exist today. And this is the challenge: that I can actually serve every customer according to his needs, and you will find a company serving commercial and a company serving residential, and this has a specific method. And this is what I see as missing today. And perhaps in my professional path, I have encountered the same problem. When a government company, a government-owned company, provides a certain service, it cannot compete with the private sector in service quality. Ultimately, because its way of working and its considerations are also different from the private sector. >> Today's vision of the role, and this is one of the important things, is the role of legislation and regulations. Their goal today is to regulate, limit manipulation, protect people's rights, and reduce legal problems and lawsuits. Naturally, today, any system issued or any new regulation will naturally have challenges and loopholes. And our role today as the private sector, and our role today as >> real estate professionals, in particular, is to improve the experiences. >> And convey the voice to the decision-maker so that >> the regulation comes out in the best possible way. And today, I think we are living it. The numbers, as you mentioned, are different from the past few years before the legislation compared to after the legislation. >> Correct. >> So, today, legislation is important. But our role is to be flexible with it and try to provide the greatest possible. >> I would really like you to tell me the story that we spent last week about the fraud operation that happened late at night. What is its story? What happened? >> Okay, this is one of the events that happened in 2000, at the beginning of 2023, approximately, before the system. >> So, I am the head of a homeowners' association in a residential complex. So, I remember I was going out with a colleague, and suddenly I received a call from one of the neighbors saying that something happened. >> So, I don't know what's going on. I went to look for a number I have and called him. I said, "What's going on? There are people at the door with their belongings, and they are renting." Some people are leaving, and some haven't left. He said, "I have no information. I haven't rented, and I don't know anything that's happening." So, I contacted the first neighbor again. The man said he had no news and didn't know who these people were or had anything to do with them. So, after searching and investigating, we discovered that someone was living in the apartment. Someone rented him the apartment for an amount that was not even 10% of its actual rent. He took cash from him and gave him the code, and the man has been living in the apartment for two days. Because I mentioned that one of the owners contacted me complaining that someone was smoking in the corridors, and we didn't know him. He was there smoking in the corridors. So, I didn't connect it, frankly. I wasn't paying attention. So, we asked the first person, "How did you come? Who gave you the apartment? How did you get in?" He said, "Someone gave me a contract, and I gave him 8,000 or 7,000 and lived in the apartment. He gave me the electricity. I entered. No one was in the apartment. I brought my belongings, very simply." The commotion that was happening was that there was actually another client who came with her belongings.

So, our apartment had furniture. Upon entering the apartment, she opened the door and found someone living there. "Who are you? Who brought you here? And who opened the door for you?" She had rented it from someone, and they didn't know if this person was the same one or not. But she had rented it, paid the rent, and paid a non-logical amount, meaning less than the apartment's value. She paid, and she had her furniture. When I returned home, this was the joke. It was a sad joke. A third person came with his furniture to the same apartment. It was a strange situation. You don't know what to do. What do you do with the first person? What do you do with the second? And how does the person already inside get out? It was a sad story, a very sad story. People are leaving the homes they live in, they can't return with their furniture. What do you do? And the person inside will get out. The problem is, I contacted the owner. You put an apartment with someone. He gave it to someone who was offering it, not through a real estate platform. But it was offered on a website. It seems someone called and got the code, took the code, and started playing with people. He took money from them, perhaps more than the apartment's rent value, from the three people in total. Regardless of the amount he took and the people who were trapped, because in the end, they all had to go to the police and file a report. They suffered, poor things. But it was a sad experience. I hear stories, and I have colleagues who went through this. This is the first time it happened in front of me. It wasn't one person, it wasn't two people, it was three people. It was a strange situation. And three people, it's clear that he wanted to sell to as many people as possible because he knew the scam would be exposed when someone moved in. This was a very, very sad story. Most of the other stories, one was scammed in their home and hadn't yet gone out to the street. That's better, honestly, because their experience was very bad. They were all stuck, and it was late, 11 PM. Where do you go at 11 PM? To the police, to rent, and what do you do with your furniture that you brought? It was a very sad experience, honestly. So, I repeat the same warnings. Perhaps the number of people falling into these problems has decreased today.

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Today, manual payment is cash payment. Before paying, make sure who you are paying. This is perhaps the problem that caused them all to fall into it. There is nothing to prove that the person they paid has any connection to the unit, except that they have the password. So, part of the problem that happened to them was that leniency led to a blow. Yes. In the end, of course, the fraud game is always based on temptation. So, he gave them a unit at a price lower than its market price by 50%. The first one, for example, he gave it at 90% less than its market price. So, when one is tempted by the price, they say, "Well, I'm not going to be too picky." Then they discover they've fallen into a problem and lost the money. This claim will take time until you get it from the person, and it might be someone hiding behind someone hiding behind someone, and someone who doesn't know. So why put yourself in this situation at all? We always say, even on Aqar, there's always a warning under "Contact Advertisers." Always verify the person you are contacting. If someone refers you to another person, always be cautious. Because this was actually a practice that existed before. Some people blame us, asking how the scammers exist. The scammer couldn't access the property, so he would go to people and say, "Advertise, and if anyone contacts you, give them my number because he can't advertise on Aqar." So, we even put this warning: "Be more careful if someone refers you to another person." Why didn't that other person advertise directly on Aqar? This is point one. Point two, make sure they issue you an official contract, authenticated by Ejar. Pay through Ejar to guarantee your rights in general. This is, in brief, and there are many stories, honestly, that are distressing, but these are the ones that are in front of the eyes, in front of the eyes. And Aqar, many of us have lived with it, the clients who contact us. There was a period when it was indeed a painful and annoying matter, and you see the number of people. Honestly, no matter what, you feel you have a role and a responsibility. And I mention it even to the whole team. There was a period in 2022 and 2023, perhaps, where for two or three months, most of our work was how to fight fraud within Aqar. We weren't just doing anything, but these were very harmful and damaging to the point that they were professionals. And professionals. And people think it's one person playing with another. This is a contract. So, we actually dug into things and discovered that no, the matter is not one scammer sitting in a house. It's an organized operation. These fraud operations don't happen by chance or in an ordinary way. And I tried to contact scammers, and you discover that the matter is more complicated than the end client imagines. It's not an office that cheated you. It's a gang that specializes in fraud and scams. And this is one of the ways they cheat people. They cheat them in other ways. Today, for example, I want to warn, honestly. Today, I warn about daily and monthly bookings because they are prevalent on social media, especially on TikTok. Especially the scammers who advertise units at a very attractive price. As soon as you transfer money, they stop responding. Be very, very careful about renting through these channels. It's not about renting from Aqar, it's about renting from anywhere else, but be careful about renting from someone who advertises on these platforms without a platform that guarantees your rights. Because the Ministry of Tourism system's goal is to hold us responsible for things we don't want to be responsible for. We don't want to be responsible for taking the money, and we don't want to be responsible for taking the deposit, and we don't want to pay the deposit to the owner unless there's a request or we've violated something and have consequences. But I tell the client who is booking, you are booking from these channels because the reliability is very weak, and these channels are full of scams. For them, the number is large. Perhaps they scam 20 people a day, take 500 to 1000 riyals from each, and make 10,000 a day. It's very tempting for the scammer to work in it. So, you must be careful so that you don't become the story that serves as a lesson for others.

I would like to conclude, honestly, with three segments that concern us currently: the real estate broker segment, development companies or companies in general, and individuals. I would like to talk today specifically about the real estate broker and how they can benefit from technology companies or real estate technology companies.

Okay, today, if we look at the current market situation, if we talk about real estate technology, there are different types. Advertising platforms help the broker market the properties they have. This is the simplest thing they offer. The simplest service and product they offer is to reach a very large number of clients at a relatively short cost and time. This relates to advertising. Other services offered by real estate technology platforms include tools and programs for managing offices and customer relationships, and tools related to property management. These are examples of products in the market that serve the real estate broker who practices brokerage or property management. You feel that it enhances the quality of their work. Utilizing technology is to improve and enhance the quality of work, reduce costs, and increase performance. This is one aspect. The second aspect that can be benefited from in these platforms relates to information. For example, advertising platforms can be used to build a perception of the real estate market, better than your current perception. Many marketers may not pay attention to this, but if you spend time daily, see what's new in the market, what are the prices in that area, what are the prices? When a client comes to you, you give them the impression that you are knowledgeable. You actually know what matters to you. No one surprises you. "Well, I want to know the price of commercial property in that neighborhood," and you actually have something listed in that neighborhood, or your ability to answer and recall information is very important for your image in front of the client. This is one benefit you get from platforms. It's not necessarily that you have to advertise; it's just to get an impression and knowledge of the market. What's offered? What's not offered? What's the price of what's offered? This information doesn't bring us money, but it's actually a benefit for the broker. Some people don't realize it. They feel they have to advertise or bring them a client for them to feel they have benefited. So, this is benefit number two for the broker. Benefit number three, and this is more apparent in the market today, is that many programs, whether we're talking about training or development programs or services offered to brokers from various platforms. Platforms offer them for marketing and promotional purposes, but the broker can benefit from them, whether for knowledge or skill development, or otherwise. At Aqar, we have a product. We have a service we will offer next year, which is the Aqar Academy. The goal is to provide educational and skill-based content for the broker. The target is the broker who is new to the market because we are seeing a large number of brokers wanting to enter but don't know where to start. The goal is to try to tell them what are the basic skills that are above the required skill content for the license, what is useful for them, how to build a good network of relationships in the real estate sector, how to benefit from information, and so on. This is an indirect benefit, but it's something we see the broker can benefit from, and it's not paid; it has no cost.

What can we advise the broker on? We advise the broker on the same point: don't enter the real estate sector with dreams of quick wealth. This is an important point. We always see in contexts that people hear about making millions and say, "Okay, from the first month, God willing, I'll make millions." This is not normal in the real estate sector. This is the exception. The exception is that yes, you can earn an excellent income as a real estate broker. You work hard; it's not a job where you sleep and money comes to you. No, this is not the real estate sector. But there is a good income if you can build a network of relationships and build trust and reputation with your clients. You can earn an excellent income from your work as a broker in the real estate sector. And this opens up opportunities for you in other sales-related sectors in real estate, even if you are not marketing properties. Your clients are in many companies that hire marketing and sales employees. If you are a good broker, you are an excellent candidate for this type of job. And today, especially with the development of the level of real estate offerings and the volume of developers and the volume of projects available, the demand for this type of job will increase. The price of a good broker will go up in the coming period. They will be able to set terms. Today, perhaps the offering is not very large for brokers, but I think from what we are seeing, a real estate broker might get job opportunities with a higher income than their commission income if they are a good salesperson, especially considering developers with projects worth hundreds of millions or even billions. It will be attractive for a broker to work in these areas. This is one point. The second point is not to underestimate the skills and knowledge that a broker must have. There was a campaign by the Authority, and honestly, I wished the slogan was used more: "Real estate is not just playing around." Indeed, when someone deals with a broker who has worked hard on themselves and deals with someone who takes the matter lightly, they see the difference. The final customer experience is different. The customer wants the good one, the one who is enthusiastic, who knows what they are selling. Fast communication. Fast communication. Knows the product. They won't tell you things that you later find out are different. These are the complaints we receive: "A broker tells me there are four rooms, and I go and find three rooms." Things with a very big difference in the unit. This creates an impression of the broker. And the customer thinks, "Anything goes." Indeed, this is what creates the tone among people: "Why does the broker take a commission? They didn't do anything. They didn't give me good information." Whereas when you come to a broker who actually gives you information, gives you advice, gives you a warning, then yes, they deserve it. I am actually making a real estate decision, not sharing real estate every day. So, the one who warns me deserves it. The client feels loyalty towards this broker. It might be revealed tomorrow that they bring you a client, bring you two clients. So, this point, from my observation in the sector, exists. I'm not saying for the whole sector. There are wonderful and excellent brokers, honestly, and we are always proud, and we honor a large number of excellent brokers periodically. Their performance is good, their reputation is excellent. But I'm talking about those who enter the sector thinking it's something on the side. The competition is increasing, and you won't have a place if you can't improve the quality of your work. And if you improve the quality of your work, you will find good. You will find good, but put in some effort. This, of course, has a million doors under it for self-development, communication methods, the offerings, even how to photograph the unit, how to display the unit. Many things all affect the development of the broker's personality and performance.

Can a real estate broker today be a reason or have a role in a scam or real estate fraud?

Yes, I remember a while ago, Mr. Taseer Mufarrej, the official spokesperson for the Authority, announced a case where this happened. This exact case: a broker contributed to a fraud operation without being aware of the action they took. How did they help? In many cases, the simplest case that existed previously was the broker who perhaps other users or they themselves issued a rental contract in a fraud case without performing the necessary due diligence and verifying the correct data. The same applies if the broker issues an advertising license with incorrect data because they are responsible for the actions under their account, their identity, and their license. So, this is the mechanism, let's say, more prominent. If there are many cases, this will be the most common mechanism: enabling others to benefit from your license and your access, for example, to Ejar, and not performing due diligence to verify that the operation you entered into is a fraud operation or not. So, don't sign a rental contract for someone you don't know the operation of, don't know the details, don't have the data of the owner, the contract, the property, and the details, so you can protect yourself from this type of problem.

If we move a bit to the second category, the real estate developers. How can a real estate developer benefit from real estate technologies before, during, and after the sale process of their project?

Okay, excellent. Today, as you mentioned, there are three stages. Normally, today, real estate marketing, depending on the type of project and its regulatory requirements. Off-plan sales projects require a different type of license before sale than ready-to-sell projects. Today, we have been working with brokers and real estate developers primarily during the past period. And at the start of the system, I think we have helped many developers who were advertising through Aqar with licenses, obtaining licenses for their properties, advertising them, and so on, in addition to the services that Aqar provides directly. It was part of you being our client and partner, so we cooperate with you in these aspects. So, this is one of the things that, let's say, before the sale of the project. There is a service before the project even starts that we provide, and some of our clients benefit from it, which relates to data, statistics, and studies for projects, given the data available on Aqar. Data on demand, data on supply, customer behavior data. A number of developers benefit from this data in determining the nature of the project, the identity of the project, what units should be available, what is the demand for it. So, this is an example of what developers benefit from, and we have clients, thank God, who have benefited from it excellently.

How is the process of dealing with this data?

Of course, it's usually according to the client's need. It's not a ready-made product. You need to sit with the client and understand exactly what projects or opportunities are available to them or what opportunities they are evaluating. So, we can provide them with data that helps them choose between opportunities. Or if they have a project, they have a specific location and want to determine what to build there, for example, what kind of project. There is a set of data that can be provided to help them in this decision. Or if they have a ready project and want to see how much demand there is for it today, whether it's commercial or residential. If it's commercial, what are the things related to commercial leasing, mixed-use, best-use, and so on, mixed-use, and so on. Many things related to studying the location. And we have done it with more than one client, and the goal is to benefit from the data available on Aqar, primarily, and to serve the client. So, there isn't a clear product that I can tell you, "This is it," but the idea is that according to the need, we extract data to create a specific study report, specific statistics, according to the project's and developer's needs.

What is the most prominent challenge you face with developers today?

The most prominent challenge we face with developers today, with the change that is happening, is actually clarifying the role and importance of real estate platforms in the developer's marketing plan. We deal with a number of developers who think, "I will market myself. I don't want marketers, I don't want brokers, I don't want platforms, I don't want anything. I will do everything myself." And the challenge in this is that in the end, there are tools you are not benefiting from. Some developers accept the experience, some don't. I'm not saying that someone will sell 100% through one channel. I can't sell 100% of the project, nor can brokers on the street sell 100% of the project. Nor can any tool you use sell 100%.

So, it's an integrated process. And the challenge we face with them is convincing them of the importance of the experience. This is one. And two, honestly, one of the challenges we face with clients we work with, not with clients we don't work with. We discover through cooperation that the developer has a sales problem. A developer might be unhappy with the performance, but when we investigate, we discover that there are clients, but no one has contacted them. So, there's an internal problem with the developer in sales. We try, in one way or another, to say, "You must benefit." If the problem isn't a problem of capacity, if you have an employee who can't keep up, you must benefit from the people available in the market. You must hire collaborators. In the end, you are losing sales, and the reason for losing sales is that this channel is not being focused on appropriately. Consequently, you see the channel not performing well. Most of the clients who came to us had a performance problem. When we sat down and examined it, we discovered that the problem is actually that the sales process after the potential client arrives is very weak. This is one of the challenges. There is another challenge related to, you know, the perception some developers have towards the impact of advertising on the platform on their project. And I expect this to improve over time, but I mention it to share the information. Some developers think that advertising on Aqar or other platforms means the project has a problem, or the project is overexposed, or the project is not selling. And this is an incorrect perception. Because with that thinking, you might say that if you put a sign at the project, the project is not selling. It should sell without a sign.

It should sell without social media. It's not logical. It's a marketing channel like any other channel. It brings you clients like any other channel. You evaluate the cost of the channel compared to the number of clients you get and see if the cost is suitable for you or not. The cost might be unsuitable for the project. I'm not saying every channel is suitable for every project. There might be other channels that are more suitable for a specific project. Your goal from a specific channel might not be sales; your goal might be to reach a larger number of clients. The marketing tools differ. But we say that our plan for next year will be very strong regarding marketing projects. And we are very happy with our partners who are present today. Honestly, most of the prominent names in the market, if not all, are clients of Aqar today. We have no problem reaching this segment. But I'm talking even about developers who are just starting or whose project sizes are smaller. There are developers, and on this note, a small comment, I am impressed, honestly, at Cityscape by the number of new real estate developers who suddenly emerged in the market without, let's say, without prior fanfare announcing their projects. Cityscape. And we look forward to working with all developers in the market. We still say we want Aqar to be the place where everyone's projects are, so that the end client can reach them, and we provide continuous development services to our developer clients.

Individuals dealing in the real estate field. Individuals are, of course, the lifeblood for us as seekers of real estate, primarily. They are the lifeblood of Aqar and any real estate advertising platform. Without them, we have no value or role. Today, we are trying to improve the client experience on Aqar as much as possible. The challenge in platforms that have been around for a while is that change is always desired by some and not by others. This creates a balance between updating and keeping pace with the needs of the new client, which is always difficult and sensitive. But we think we are taking balanced steps. And God willing, what's coming is better and of higher quality. So, for the seeker, we always say we want to understand their needs more so that we can provide them with the best possible service. We usually warn them, like, we don't want this warning to be off-putting, because too much warning can be off-putting. It can be off-putting to the end client. But we always tell them to be careful. Deal with licensed brokers. This will keep you away from many of the problems that exist in the market. And we hope the experience is smooth and enjoyable. Honestly, it always makes me happy and pleased when I sit with someone and they say, "I benefited from Aqar," whatever the benefit. And we always hear this, thank God, from our clients. This in itself is pleasing because, in the end, our client is not just a client who brings us money. If they are not satisfied, we have lost. So, we don't want more than them to be satisfied with the experience as much as possible.

If we ask the concluding question, if we want a real estate piece of advice in the field of real estate technology, what could be the advice?

Look for problems, don't create them. This is a summary, perhaps even our previous discussion. Look for problems, don't create them. Today, go down to the market, sit with people, see what problems exist in the market. Don't assume problems based on fantasies and perceptions. There are plenty of challenges and problems facing those working in the market today. If you can solve them in one way or another, you have created value in this sector. This is the advice, whether for someone who wants to produce a new product or, you know, for someone who wants to provide a service. Even those who want to provide a service, sit with people, listen to them. Listen to their opinions. Sit with developers and say, "I'm going to start a property management company. What are your needs?" "I'm going to start a facility management company. What do you find difficult?" Don't just assume what people want. And I'm not saying take their words 100% correctly, but let your starting point be the real customer need, not the imagined customer need. This might take you a long way in business development, in entrepreneurship in general. May God bless your face.

Aziz and Saad, may God protect you.