Transcription
Hello and welcome to World Insight with me Tenway. This summer, join me for the season of AI and Basic Sciences, a special series of interviews and discussions I have with brilliant minds in basic sciences and artificial intelligence.
And today I'm in Shanghai, the global artificial intelligence community gathers here for the 2026 World AI conference and high level meeting on global AI governance. Bringing together top minds in science, policy and industry. The forum looks at where AI is headed next and the role of global governance of AI which is now lagging much behind the development of technologies. AI is changing science, how it is conducted, what questions scientists can ask, and how quickly discoveries can benefit society.
According to professor Omarayagi the 2025 Nobel laurate in chemistry who is one of the world's foremost chemists and material scientists. I talked to him this week in Singha University where he teaches and does his research now.
"How did that start? During which juncture you realize there might be a possibility and eventually how did you confirm to yourself yes this is it?"
"The fact is that when I had the opportunity to become an independent researcher my thinking has always been I I love chemistry I love molecules I want to do beautiful things I want to make beautiful things. So we started with this Lego project, molecular Legos, where you take molecules that exist in living and non-living things, try to use them as building blocks to make new forms of matter, new, let's call them materials. And the ones that we happen to discover down the road were metal organic frameworks or what's what is called now moths. Um, we went after beauty. We went after making beautiful things. And I know that that doesn't sound very intellectual but that was our motivation. Now we were also trying to address an important intellectual problem. That intellectual problem was could you use molecules like building blocks like Legos? Well, everybody at the time said it was not a new question."
"Mhm. But we decided to take it on because everybody said, 'No, you can't make it because because when you put these Legos together, they're going to assemble into these disordered, illdefined materials and you'll never figure out what you're making.'"
"So when they say, you know, don't try it. It never worked. What was how could a a young promising scientist like you, professor, at that time say that's exactly what I'm going to do?"
"Because I knew for sure that when someone said that's not going to work that if I put them in a room and investigate where that statement comes from that it would not be based on science that has been proven."
"Did you investigate it before you make that decision?"
"No, I took it for granted that anyone that says this is not going to work is for sure wrong. And that was they may or may not be wrong, but certainly was a motivation for me to try a new question that everybody doubted would lead to a discovery."
"When the doubters said so to your face, did you smile to them or did you just walk away from them or?"
"Well, these doubters were uh people who interviewed me for positions at some of the most prominent universities in the world. But I always tell my students that these detractors or these naysayers are never 100% of the people that you interact with that in fact you always have a certain percent in the worst case scenario there may be few percent of the people you meet who are believers in what you're doing who can see the vision that you're trying to to express and who believe in the power of pursuit and research and the power of science in making things real."
"And now you can do beautiful things. Yet, does it mean that we're going to have as many man-made materials as possible?"
"If you can if you can imagine it, it can be made."
"So, imagination is the only limit."
"Imagination is the only limit. So, because we've developed a chemistry that works. If you give me a bunch of building blocks, I can assure you that we will make it or make something just as fantastic as it is."
"What does that mean for the other sciences? And what does that mean for the future of chemistry? Because it seems that down the road going to discover a lot of new things."
"New things are the basis of civilization. New materials are the basis of civilization. We always have to invent new materials to develop new economies to solve societal problems. Every time society faces a problem, we go to technology. We go to materials. We invent new materials to address those problems. And this repeats itself through the ages. So just making new materials mindlessly because we can make them now is not is not very productive. Okay. So the new question that will be helped by AI and robotics is that which now that we can make any material that we can think of, which material is the one that I should be spending my life investigating and developing into a benefit to society."
"What do you think that answer should be at this moment at least?"
"Well, I think that that we go back to the students that uh you were talking to. Uh they were concerned about the role of chemists, the role of scientists in in the future. I think we're going to need a lot more of them because we can make a lot more and we need uh armies of these students or armies of researchers to try to learn the science and develop the science of selection. How are we going to select which material that is going to do the task the best? And it's not a trivial thing because a material has to a material starts with a molecule becomes a material then you have to configure it into a device make sure that that device runs and operates efficiently and then you have to go through the market and through commercialization to to see what that molecule ends up in in society. So this path that has taken people 30 years, 25, 30 years, now potentially we can do it a lot faster because of AI and because of these uh chemist researchers who are developing the science of selecting, the science of selection. This is a very important I think would be an important emerging science. The science of selection is going to be not just chemists but these chemists or these scientists that are able to do chemistry, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, computer science. That's what I have just described to you in the journey of the molecule to society."
"There are a lot of questions being asked when AI is becoming the daily headline more about what is human being rather than what is AI. So I would also like to ask a scientist as you what is human being to you as a scientist as a chemist what do you think you can do for the betterment of human being? I think AI for science or science for human being so to speak."
"Well I think AI and robotics and all these new technologies are not are will not change what constitutes good science or bad science. Interesting. Good science is based on observations that become facts through rigorous experimentation and through rigorous examination. Uh it has to be reproduced many many times and it has to be verified and validated before it becomes a fact that others can build on. This will not change. Uh our values about making judgment about ethics will not change should not change. Uh humans we have conscious okay we have conscious we have compassion and that should not change many other things. many other things in recognition of beauty as I recognize beauty in molecules."
"Will AI or a robot recognize what beauty is? Because that comes from within. That comes from the crosscultural experiences and unique background that each one of us has and holds and it dictates our personality and perhaps hopefully our character."
"I was talking to some of your PhD students right before our talk. They were very excited but they were a little bit uh shall I say timid imposing some questions to you. So on behalf of them I would love to ask you some questions. For example, there's AI. So what's going to be the future role of chemists?"
"Well, I think that we're going to need more chemists because I think AI is generating great abundance. For example, the chemistry that we developed with molecular Legos, as you call them, it it's leading to hundreds of thousands of new compounds that have been made. But also, the possibilities are like 10 to the 3,000 10 to the^ 3,000. That's 10 with enough zeros from here to Beijing airport. Okay, that's that's those are truly infinite possibilities. So in this world of abundance uh the answers we have many answers and the level of difficulty changes. It doesn't make things easier. Just the level of difficulty changes. And so for chemists, the difficulty will become what are the key questions that we need to ask, right? Because those key questions are more important than ever. And it is these questions that we will spend our lives trying to answer."
"So then everything that we do is going to be based on the quality of the questions that we ask in the age of AI. Then there are a lot of other things for example uh searching for the facts trying to figure out what what is fact what is fiction what is fake okay all these things become truly important it's a skill that that this future generation has to have is how do I recognize what is a fact how do I what is my strategy what's the skill that I should have to recognize what facts are."
"I'm sure they are standing on your shoulders And therefore, do you have any advice for them as to what is the best way to understand facts from fiction?"
"Well, I think you you should not be afraid to ask questions when you're presented with information. I think it's important to ask questions about it. What is the source? We do this in science. This is no different than the very science that these chemistry students are learning in the lab. When you make an observation, you don't just accept that observation as a fact. You first have to verify it. And typically, we have to verify it at least three times to make sure it's reproducible. Then you have to validate it by asking why is it this way? Okay. How can I characterize it using different techniques? Okay. So you're trying to be rigorous as to um proving to yourself that what you observed is a fact rather than something else. And you do that through asking a lot of questions about it and through making sure that you characterize this observation and you understand it the best. So science and the same as facts begins with doubt and questions and this is really the fun part about science basic sciences research we see both competition and certainly cooperation. I mean basic sciences is about cooperation. uh what do you think might be some of the most important things to be done in order to make sure those cooperation will not be reduced even distracted."
"I think we need first of all basic science is researching into new knowledge for the sake of knowledge in in any topic and this is the only way that you can elevate a humanity because basic science uncovers new ways of solving vexing problems that we face as humans also. So it does something absolutely essential and that is that we mentor students when they are doing basic science they're going into the world of unknown. And how many people do you know that know how to operate in the world of unknown in chaos in in going to do an experiment when you don't know the results of that experiment might be. It takes courage. It takes special human beings and they are learning that they are learning that through basic science and when these scientists researchers individuals go out in society they will do wonderful things okay to solve to come up with technologies that serve serve human that's why I believe basic science is an absolute foundation for elevating humanity and it is for an enlightened society it should be one of the highest priorities is to fund basic science. This is the way we progress and this is the seed of all innovations is basic is basic science. So basic science is not easy to do. It's difficult and it's expensive and it we have pro it takes patience. It takes patience. We and but we have also proved over and over again that the most successful environments are the ones where people from around the world mix to do an experiment. Okay. So mixing together, being able to talk to people from other cultures, debate, people that think in a different way is absolutely essential to sharpening up the mind and seeing different ways of solving problems. And uh the current system of higher education is becoming complicated by geopolitics. And I think we need to make sure that science is never politicized. Um I have some critique of the current system of the university. The university meaning universities anywhere in the world. This the system of university as we know it is that it our knowledge and acquisition of knowledge is very centralized. We wait for talent to come to us or we recruit talent from around the world but yet we do not have enough uh positions to fill what otherwise is an almost infinite talent. So it seems like this model is wasting a lot of talent because we don't have the capacity to take in everyone that could be qualified. So I am more and more thinking of a system I call it a scientific discovery system that could be a way to go where the talent is and build around that talent and develop an ecosystem around that talent in."
"How does that [clears throat] work?"
"Well, it sounds very expensive. Well, I mean we developed a system of trade that almost everybody in the world could use. We developed a system of banking. We develop telecommunication. We develop aviation. Almost anyone can plug into these systems anywhere in the world. Why not develop a science system around the world that where everyone could be solving the world's problems rather than just few scientists in few countries. and AI and robotics are going to help us connect the world a lot better to have a more connected science to have a system that anyone anywhere can plug in and start learning how to do experiments, how to think like a scientist, how to focus on facts, how to decipher what is fact versus fiction to study to improve their mind to and ultimately to improve their environment."
"That sounds like a perfect plan. So what would that mean for you, professor, when that day came for you in Tinua University, a professor like you? What would be your job when everybody else is doing science?"
"We still have to think about those big questions that I brought up earlier. We still have to mentor new minds. All of that requires a lot of work. Um, so thinking about big problems, the questions that matter and how to answer those questions, how to use all this newfound knowledge and facilities to solve those questions that are worth solving, the questions that are worth spending our lives on. So it's it's going to generate a lot of work, but it's going to be fun."
"Tell me more about how do you understand competition?"
"Well, I think we need productive competition."
"Tell me more about that. What exactly is it?"
"Competition. We humans thrive on competition. Okay. We want to be racing through our environment towards a solution and a better solution than the other side. Okay. But in the meantime, if the thing that we're competing about is worth competing about and it is in the end advances knowledge and help society, why not? That's a healthy competition."
"What is the thing that worth competing about in your view?"
"Acquisition of knowledge, advancing the knowledge of of humanity, the business of acquiring knowledge and improving the minds of what I call emerging scholars through that. That's the that is our best asset are these generation of emerging scholars who are going to solve future problems."
"But um it seems that there's less of a open-minded world these days compared to let's just say at the height of the globalization. How do you as a scientist see that phenomenon?"
"I'm not really sure whether we have more close-minded people today than we did a 100 years ago. We just know more because we're more we're more connected."
"Mhm. I don't mind it. I mean I I think we should have various um leanings, various beliefs, various u because it allows us to compare to compare. The comparison is very powerful in making advancements and uh you compare two things and you learn something new. If we were all the same, all open-minded or all close-minded, I think we wouldn't advance as fast. So, so I like this heterogenization, but but I also like to see respect that people respect each other's point of view and engage in discussion and not to have to conclude. At the end of the day, we don't have to conclude. There is a there is a lot of learning that can be gained by just discussing a topic, discussing differences in a meaningful way without necessarily having to make a conclusion."
"What will be your plan here in Tinua? I mean a lot of students at the gate as you have saw uh you have seen they were excited to see you here in Tinua campus. So what is your immediate and midterm plan?"
"I am now in the midst of a sea of great professors doing great things and a and more importantly than even that a sea of great student minds who are hungry to learn, hungry to do something new. And I want to develop uh our new institute focusing on AI, materials and chemistry. We call it a metatri not only to serve uh chinua China but also to serve the world. Yes. After all science transcend all borders should transcend all borders. The best science is done by transcending all borders and the best science the world has the right to this knowledge. Distribution of knowledge around the world benefits everyone. So that's what I'm going to be doing. So in the immediate future, I want to build up my group uh identify those students and faculty that I want to collaborate with and it's a very exciting process."
"Have you already some of them?"
"Oh yes, we already we already have quite a few interviews um discussions with uh with faculty and students and we've even identified at least um 15 to 20 people that we and this only been a couple of weeks."
"You're very efficient, I have to say. [laughter]"
"Well, we have to do things. We have to move fast. Yeah, we have a lot of urgent problems on our planet. You almost think about every sector of society has a major problem and a lot of those problems actually can be dealt with partly by what you are doing whether it's clean energy whether it's new materials in different areas all these are having to do with you so a lot of responsibilities too professor."
"There's a lot of responsibility we have for example in in my research most prominently is climate climate climate is a is a big issue look at the extreme weathers we're experiencing around the world these days. Yeah. So, it's affecting the lives and livelihood of people around the world. Um, including here. I mean, it's a it's a big it's a big problem. So, well, I think the other major uh problem is is how to deploy AI in a fruitful way in speeding up what we do and ultimately uh helping us ask questions that are much more important than the ones that we may have come up with without AI. So this is this is very important because this is going to not just solve problems faster and better but also maybe allow us to make materials cheaper and maybe more greener. At the end of the day, it's uh to me AI is is going to help young people plug into science and the business of doing research and acquiring knowledge much more than ever before. Because in bringing AI to chemistry to materials, you're modernizing a science and you're making your science operate at the same speed potentially as what these young students are doing on their iPhone. So we become more relevant in their lives and more attractive as a as a career option for them. So I think AI is going to have a lot of benefits in this regard."
"Before coming to this interview, I actually off the record have been talking to some of the big names as you mentioned the brilliant minds already teaching and researching here in Tinua and many of them told me they would be very excited to interact with you to see what kind of sparkle would come out."
"As I am with them. Yes."
"What kind of cross subject areas are you looking at right now?"
"To me, it took us 35 years to go from the molecule to society. And along the way, we learned that chemists to to get the molecule to society, you need to also be an engineer, a chemical engineer, a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and a computer scientist. And if you really want to market your product and commercialize it, well, you need you need you need market, you need policy, you need economics, you need a lot of different things. So, um that's the future we will be living in. This is what I want to do. I want my lab to be intelligent in all these areas. Again, AI is a language that allows me as a chemist or as a material scientist to talk to an economist. That's a language that we both can communicate in and and so on and engineering and all the other fields. So no longer will chemistry will a chemist be confined to just knowledge about molecules but rather a chemist would have knowledge of molecules and materials but also a working knowledge with all these other fields where they can take their invention and put it in society in a in a meaningful way. And that's my exclusive interview with Nobel laurate professor Omar Yagi on AI and chemistry. That's all the time we have for today. If you'd like to know more, search world insight or check out our YouTube channel. Follow us on X and Facebook. [music] I'm Tway in Shanghai. Tomorrow we're going to bring you more discussions and topics coming from the WIC 2026 being [music] held here in this city. Thank you for being with me. Bye for now."