Shout out to US Arc and all US Arc members. If you don't know what US Arc is, don't be ashamed. Just go and click the third link in the description below. See what US Arc is all about. Okay? You never know when legislations are going to hit your backyard. So that's why it's very important to consider becoming a US Arc member today. These numbers really do matter and they look at it for consideration when it comes to battling legislation.

So, first and foremost, thank you, Phil Goss. Thank you to anybody out there who partners up and volunteers with the US Ark organization. Thank you for anyone out there who's a US Arc member. And if you can't become a US Arc member today, please talk about it on your platforms. Let your neighbors know. Let all your pet stores know what US Arc is here for. And it's here to fight for our animal rights. Thank you to every US Arc member and US Arc supporter out there. Cheers.

TUS 30 seconds [music] T-minus 20 seconds [music] [music] 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 One zero. [music]

Trap Talk Reptile Network. The coolest reptile network in the world. Episode 697. New Bri on the block. Grant and Mary from Recck Room. Snakes in the building tonight. Paint the world. Hope you guys are excited. I'm excited. Definitely excited tapping about paint tonight. Uh, but yeah, man. Please do me a favor. If you're enjoying this episode, if you're hearing some stuff you're like, "Wow, that's going to help me." Do me a favor. If you're not already, please hit that subscribe button. Hit that notification bell. Select all. You'll be reminded of every podcast released out of the network Monday through Sunday. You can find a brand new episode. The only reptile network in the world that's doing that for you guys. So, get reminded. Stay on top of everything. Catch these Monday nights. Every Monday night WITH ME AND BIG TOP GAL REPTILES IN THE BUILDING.

>> Painters gonna paint, boy.

>> Damn. Wait, what' you just say?

>> Hey. Hey. We got some of the original players in the game tonight. Okay.

>> Not the people that jumped on the bandwagon because, you know, oh, he got hot again. No. These people been in it since the beginning when it wasn't hot. Okay. They stayed with it. An example of what we should be doing in the ball game. Okay. Period.

>> That's a nice intro. I didn't even know about that about them. I'm I I know from where they're where they're at with paint. I'm like, dude, how did they get in this position? But now it makes a lot of sense. Well, thanks for thanks for busting that bubble right at the beginning. That's awesome. But uh

>> I'm pretty sure I don't I don't remember all the facts.

>> We'll hear from them,

>> but I'm pretty sure they've been in it for a minute.

>> Yeah,

>> definitely seem definitely seems like a real nice couple uh during soundcheck. I'm excited for uh for for them to come on tonight and tap everything in with us. But what's up with you, bro? How you doing, Big E? How was your weekend? You vended one one day this weekend, I think.

>> Yeah, we did a one day. We did good. Um

>> is that your last one day show?

>> That it more than likely is the last one day show. um went in with uh low expectations and came out good, man. You know, uh blessed is all I can say. Blessed.

>> I think you're always going to come out pretty positive if you have low expectations or just don't set anything over your head high, you know? Just go in there, do your best. You're always good about looking at who you reach to as far as like people who come and subscribe to the show or whatever. I think I feel like networking is should be the number one thing for people, you know?

>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

>> Because they come back. I mean, how many people have you realized that you've seen at previous shows and you're like, "Oh, what's up?" And they almost they kind of come back and see you, you know?

>> I'm going to tell you this. One of one of uh my customers at Sarasota is one of our viewers. They're awesome. Um, they they bought their third animal from me. I'm very happy. Um, I'll remember the name in a bit. My bad. [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> Big E. All right. All right. Hey, listen. Before we get to uh tonight's sponsors, um

>> there they are. Kim Kim and Matt Chase.

>> Wow. There the There you go.

>> Yeah. What's up, guys? Thank you.

>> Yeah. Thank you, guys.

>> Hey, you guys are awesome.

>> Go easy on my man's memory. I swear. He [laughter]

>> uh um Okay, hold on real quick. Where we at with your season one? It's over now, right? Like you're chilling or what's going on?

>> I got I got my last clutch. uh like 5 days ago. Yeah.

>> 59 or 58 or what you got?

>> 56. I ended up with 56.

>> So, what's what's the what's the energy for next year? Like what what's you know, if everything goes your way with uh with with temps and everything, what are you looking to hit for 2026?

>> Well, first uh I have my first CBO pairing.

>> Oh, wow. That's exciting.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Damn. I love how you said that first and foremost. Like that was like

>> Yes. Rookie boy.

>> Yeah. Hey. Um,

>> no clue what you're doing.

>> I I I'm uh put uh I'm putting MBKs into Broomation next month.

>> Um, first time there as well.

>> And uh, I'm gonna have 126 pairings this coming season.

>> Yeah.

>> If I go at a 75% clip, that's a lot of animals. So

>> is that 90? Is that It's about How much is that? How many clutches is that? at 75% um I'm probably roughly in the 85 to 90 range without the colubrates.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. So, you're talking 600, maybe 600 animals.

>> How many how many um [clears throat] how many king snakes do you pair up? Just one pair, right?

>> I have I have two females I'm going to pair.

>> Oh, sick.

>> Yeah. Two females and and the one KBO. And then, you know, working on the room, still enjoying it all, you know, and then I got one more project to work on eventually,

>> you know.

>> And you're done, you're done with the hog noses, right?

>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Thank God. Hey, I just want to remind everybody that uh, you know, you catch a brand new episode again here on the network Monday through Sunday. And if you're not more on the YouTube side of things, uh, you can hear all these episodes on all the major audio platforms, um, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Play. So listen, go at it, man. If you're tired of commercials or having to keep your phone on, you don't need to do that on all the audio platforms. So, wherever you listen to any of these episodes, thank you so much for supporting me and all the other fellow guests, my co-hosts. Really means a lot. And again, if you are getting anything out of these episodes, please subscribe. Help me ch uh grow the channel. Now, also, if you're looking for exclusive content, please don't hesitate. Come join the Trap Talk Patreon family. Click the very first link in uh description below, connect to the Discord, and there's an amazing Instagram group chat taps you with amazing keepers from all over the world. So, thank you so much to all my trappers. You guys are my heart. Shout out to tonight's sponsor, Reptile Super Show happening January, 10th and 11th. Okay, it's going down. Big E, YOU READY OR WHAT, DOG?

>> BRO,

>> hell yeah, I'm ready. I can't wait, bro. I love Hey, I love going to Cali, bro.

>> This is crazy to me. I can't believe it's already that time of year where Big E is going to be there. How many animals you bringing, Amelio?

>> Uh, this year, last year I think I only brought 50 or 40 or 50. This year I'm expecting to bring 80. Oh my god. All right. Well, it's it's going to be going down, guys. Again, January 10th and 11th, Reptile Superers Show, Pomona, California. Make sure you go to the reptiles show.com to get your tickets. You can also find all informations on hotels and all this other any any kind of ticket information as well going to be on the website. So, thank you so much, Ramy, and the entire Reptile Super Show team. Appreciate your support. Also, tonight's episode is brought to you by Prague Morphs over there in Europe. Killing it, man. Thank you so much, Devon and Terza. If you're into the uh top tier projects in the ball python game, uh triple recessive, quad recessives with a bunch of amazing incomplete dominance, then this is your this is your your your company to follow right now. Prague morphs on IG. You can also check out their website to see what they have available. Also on Morph Market as well. So, thank you so much Devin Trezo over at Park Prague Prague Morphs. Find their website in the description below. Then also tonight's episode is brought to you by Clutch, the number one ball python organization app in the game. I'm going to take it back to Alio. Amelia, what has your life been like ever since switching to Clutch?

>> Yo, I I love Clutch. Straight up. Everything's in there ready to go. I'm going to start um I'm going to start ultrasounding in about four four six weeks,

>> right?

>> All that information is going to go in there. I mean, it's it's I love it. It's great. Uh Justin messaged me like two three weeks ago. We went mobile. I mean, I love it. I could work it from my phone, guys. It's a game changer

>> for [clears throat] anyone out there who's like, "Man, I have just so I have too many snakes. I just don't want to do it." What What was your motivation to do it? Because I mean, you're you're you're an OG and so

>> I'm busy as hell and uh I didn't want to deal with just going up to the tub and, you know, seeing what I wrote on that tub and that old school [ __ ] I didn't want to deal with that. I wanted to be able to go on to the system, you know, and go see the pairing. Go see what a backup pairing would be. Uh, you know, it rates it rates your pairings. Um, bro, I love putting in new holdbacks. I love the IDs. I mean, I sold a few animals that were in the system recently. I loved giving the customer their IDs with, you know, with the card. Dude, I I love it. That's all I have to say.

>> Epic. Well, thanks for doing my job on that. Um, guys, Clutch, check them out, please. You can try them free for 30 days. Find the website in the description below. And, UH, LIVE CHATS ARE CRACKING. THANKS for everyone who's here. Vunit family trappers, you guys are amazing. Uh, you ready to bring this couple on and get to the get to the bottom of this the painting or what?

>> Hell yeah. Let's go.

>> All right, man. Again, man, shut much love to the chats. You guys are beautiful. But do me a favor. Smash that like button because it's game time. All right. DO WHAT YOU GOT TO DO TO GET YOUR MIND RIGHT. DO WHAT YOU GOT TO DO TO STAY hydrated for episode 697. The new brand on the block, Rack Room Snakes, coming at you right now. Let's go.

>> Good.

>> You ready for do more in the future? Trap Talk podcasters.

>> Yes.

>> Only only trap talk. Exclusive.

>> Exclusive. Oh,

>> so stop calling us.

>> Love it or not. I'm hot from the hop to the spot. [music] Get the club to pop when I come up the spot. Get the club when I come [music] up the spot. Get the club when I come up [music] the spot. Get the club when I come up. Everybody, we do it. [music] Everybody, we do it. [music] [music] Do it. [music] Do it.

>> [music] [music]

>> spot. Get the club when I come up with the club spot. [music] Get the club when I come up. Get the [music] club when I come up. Spot up. And we're live. Episode 697. Welcome, Grant and Mary. What is good, guys?

>> How's it going?

>> Hey. Hey, guys.

>> All right, let's get to it. How How did paint happen? Let's hear it.

>> Um, well, I guess we we started in paint back in like 2011.

>> Wow. 2011. Yeah.

>> And and let's I mean obviously 2011 is such a different time, you know, obviously than what's current with social media. So let's let's hear I want to hear that the the detailed story like were you guys walking around a show? Did you were you going through imports? Like how did this happen?

>> Yeah, actually uh just uh looking through um like World of Ball Pythons.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh just kind of and Reptile Radio um kind of the bush league. Yeah,

>> you know, used to be on there quite a bit and just saw um saw paint and saw Sentinel and I just kind of really like the the really granity stuff and uh I actually saw it in person at a show one time with uh it was I can't remember if it was like a Raleigh show.

>> Yeah, I think so.

>> Yeah.

>> So, Rep Room Snakes, you guys have been around for how many years now? I mean I So, you guys were obviously around in the hobby back then. So, I'm curious how far back you guys go.

>> Yeah, we started breeding ball pythons in like 2008, but before that we did uh king snakes, corn snakes, milknakes.

>> Whoa. Interesting. Wow. Um, who who's in Okay. I feel like there's always somebody who like sparked it all. Like, who was it who was the main motivator behind Recck Room Snakes? Was it Grant or Mary? Who who was the main pusher behind this?

>> Uh, it was kind of both of us. So,

>> I had a corn snake when I was in uh junior high.

>> Okay.

>> Um, we were uh living together and she was being made the manager of Petco over the fish and reptile department and I've always had fish tanks. So, she was norm she was used to the fish but she was scared of snakes and she goes, "How do I get over that?" And I said, "Well, the best way to get over your fear is to get one and start taking care of it because you fear what you don't know." And so we got a theideey king for her. And then that kind of led into the corns and kings. And I wanted to do the ball pythons, but she always had dealt with those bush babies from Petco that wouldn't eat and didn't do very good. And I'm like, it's different when you get from a breeder that's been bred in captivity. And so we got a pastel and like uh two normals and that's what started the ball pythons. And that was we got those back in what 2007 or eight something like that.

>> Yeah, I think it was 2007.

>> Where you guys from?

>> We're originally from California, but we're living in uh we live in North Carolina now. We've been out here since 2006.

>> Oh wow. So this whole Petco journey all happened over where you guys are at now. This wasn't a California thing. No, that was in California.

>> Oh, it was in Cali. Okay. So, what what what uh what influenced you guys to move? I mean, was it just pricing back then, too, or what what made you guys move?

>> It was pricing and then we were told she was on dialysis and waiting on a kidney transplant. We were told that the weight list was a lot shorter over here in North Carolina.

>> Wow. Um, and then I do uh heating and cooling as a trade. And the pay scale in California versus out here was the same, but the pricing the like um the price of housing was way lower.

>> Yeah. So, you're killing it in that sense because you're making Cali money in North Carolina.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And North Carolina's beautiful by the way. Like gorgeous. Um, I my buddy Brian Susan um was it South Carolina? Oh, man. I get I get him confused sometimes, but he's in that demographic. What do you guys call the mountains? Alpa or what are they called? The Appalachians. Appalachian.

>> Yeah, Appalachians.

>> Dude, he took me on some hikes over there and just that old scenic route like it was like I was in a movie and it was just very breathtaking. Um, but that that that was quite the adjustment, I'm assuming, right? Going from Cali to North Carolina,

>> the humidity

>> and working out in it. Um, I lived in Arizona for a while and I was like, it gets 120 in Arizona. I can handle that heat. And, uh,

>> that first summer about killed me not being used to that humidity. It's a it's another animal.

>> Yeah. So, when you guys moved to North Carolina, you guys obviously already had reptiles at that time, but were you already breeding then or not yet? When did you guys start breeding the the ball pythons?

>> We didn't start breeding until out here in North Carolina. Uh, the first thing that we ever bred uh was Prairie Kings in California.

>> That was the first thing we ever bred.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> And then we moved out here and we started uh with the corns and the kings almost immediately after we moved out here.

>> Yep.

>> And then how fast did you move up with ball pythons? Like once like were like were you quickly investing into whatever you could uh pretty quickly or did it grow into that? No, she like I said, she didn't she didn't really want to do the ball pythons. And then when we've got our first clutch from the pastel to a normal,

>> that was it. Yeah.

>> The next thing I know, she's buying pewers for 200 or $2,200 I think you go for a pewtor.

>> Yeah.

>> And like $1,000 for a spider. And I I was just like $1,000 for a het female pi. And

>> yeah,

>> I was like, I gotta work some more overtime. Yeah, I remember those days.

>> Yeah,

>> I paid I paid we we got into ball pythons about the same time. Um, I paid $1,000 for my first uh No, I paid $900 for my first spider female.

>> That's crazy. [clears throat]

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think that's exactly what we paid was 900.

>> Yeah. It's It's crazy how how when that when you rip that that that price bandage that band-aid off, it's crazy how things just scale up after that. Like you I like I'll never forget seeing a $300 snake was like I told myself like, "Yeah, right." Like I'll [ __ ] never in my life spend that kind of money on a snake. Are you kidding me? And then $300 is [ __ ] the shipping at this point now. Like it's like, you know what I mean? Like it's like holy like thousands thousands I have invested like you know I'm sure all of us have on this screen. But it's crazy how quick things go to that, you know. Um,

>> go ahead.

>> Let me say this. I'm gonna ask you guys the same thing. Uh, what did you buy that spider for? I I know what I bought it for, but I'm gonna let you answer.

>> Bumblebee.

>> Yeah.

>> Hell yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, that was I mean, Bumblebee is what set everything on fire. I mean, the pides were cool and the albinos were cool, but nobody knew you could combine them until

>> Murley did the Bumblebee.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And then the killer bees. Then there's

>> killer bees.

>> Dude,

>> crazy man.

>> I will say because for me, just like a lot of other people, Pi was the first one.

>> Well, I mean, it was albino, right? But albino didn't really blow me away. Like when I saw Pi, like when I saw how a normal snake could just have white like like that, I was like, that's it's like I'm rubbing my eyes, you know? And especially being a fellow ball python lover from the 90s, like just that's not nor that's not real life to me. And so it went from that to a banana and then seeing a banana in real life was like what the hell? And then the the bubble bee and killer bee stuff like that's when um that's when I was like I knew this was such a crazy cool little hobby to be a part of because um yeah those those snake you don't you don't forget seeing snakes like that for the first time. You really don't.

>> No. No. And when when they were doing the pi ball pythons there was no other snakes out there like that.

>> No at the time. Yeah,

>> Python was the only way you could do a pi back then.

>> Let me let me say this. I know you guys were were uh brought in and and inspired by some of the same people I was because uh I I don't know which one of you I was talking to in in messaging, but um Ralph Davis was was really big, you know, Kevin McCurley, um Brian Bartek, um I'm forgetting someone right now, but um it's incredible that now all of us on this screen here to an extent, Right. We can't forget that now we are offering that same experience to some of the new people that are coming in the game. Isn't that incredible?

>> Yeah.

>> It really is.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That can't get lost on us. like like right now that's what I thought of like oh my god when in 2006 2007 I was at Daytona and I went to Ralph Davis's table you know Kevin Mccurley you know Brian Barek and I'm like man now we're vending and we're doing all these things it's crazy how how things how things change so

>> you know and listen I we got to give it up to pioneers you know I give it to people like Kevin and others who are still around that started all that like even Bob Clark you know like just like the legit pion pioneers of like for some of the first guys to throw thousands of dollars into a reptile before anybody would even knew any of it, you know, and and and to this day, that's why like it's it's touching to me to hear your guys' backstory, you know, starting back in the early or you know, the 2000s where like a lot of people who like this is a hard game to really like hone down in and be a part of for the long the long term because we all know life happens like things could come into your life where you're depending on whatever money from this and and it's not there a couple years, you might have to get out. And that's kind of what's happening now. But to say you've been in this for 20 plus years and how like any kind of dip in the market won't affect you. I won't say it won't affect you, but it's not going to get you out because you love it so much. I mean, Amelia, right? How many different dips have you seen in the market and you somehow adjusted and made it work?

>> Just like Mary and Grant, we've seen I think I mentioned it with Anthony or we've seen like five iterations of the market,

>> right?

>> I mean, It's it's crazy.

>> But would you would you guys say this is the craziest one that you've seen that's happening right now like due to covid like the as far as the spike and then the whole like just going back to normaly like have any of you seen this kind of a drastic change uh throughout your years of doing this?

>> I would say this is probably one of the the

>> Yeah sure.

>> What about you? I agree the the scale

>> of of what happened because of

>> all the money that was thrown into the economy.

>> Yeah. All the people, right? Like we had a lot of people come in. Like it was a lot. Like it was a lot.

>> Yeah. There's nothing there's nothing like it. I mean

>> Yeah.

>> You know I mean I'm going to tell you guys this. I I talked to a pioneer the other like two weeks ago and he says that there's you know and and again I'm just going to say it because it was told to me. There are there are going to be so many racks on the market that there's going to be nowhere to put them.

>> Racks like rack systems.

>> Rack systems. Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Because the people that sell these rack systems, they run out of space. So, what's going to happen? Think about it. You know, something like that, you know.

>> Yeah. I mean, especially if you don't live in a place like Texas or Florida, like if you're more of a smaller state, um, you know, then Yeah. I mean that's why that's kind of like the plus side. What do you guys say uh Granton area that you guys live in a primarily reptile friendly state like meaning like there's a lot of keepers that you guys know in that area like the community of people over there is pretty pretty big in the south you would say right?

>> Well yeah I mean um I [clears throat] don't know if you know this but uh US Arc kind of started with NCR.

>> I didn't know that.

>> It morphed into US Arc.

>> Whoa. So, North Carolina um we've kind of um spearheaded a lot of that stuff and kind of self um policed I guess or you would say um and um they don't mess with us too much because of that, but uh they're starting to

>> Yeah.

>> In what way? Uh they're going they're going after the fringe of uh the reptiles like the crocodilians and stuff like that. Um

>> and venomous.

>> Yeah, the venomous got hit hard over there. No.

>> Yeah,

>> but only because of incidents like there was something that happened. I could have sworn that [ __ ] caught a bunch of attention that Yeah.

>> That guy that guy lost a zebra uh cobra in Raleigh.

>> Yes.

>> Like in an apartment complex, you know? [laughter] Wow,

>> dude. Imagine just not being a reptile person if that thing's in your in your house.

>> Oh my god. See, that's that's why that's what kind of like it's unfortunate because, you know, all it takes is somebody who doesn't really give a [ __ ] to ruin all this for us. Like irresponsible just [ __ ] who just does not care. You know, that's why it's very like it's it's scary to think no matter how hard we all try, all it takes is one idiot. One idiot. It was that one guy that was um it was real recent. He got bit by that inland inland taipan.

>> North Carolina

>> free hanging and everything. That was North Carolina too, wasn't it?

>> South Carolina.

>> Yeah, I think so.

>> Yeah. No, I think you're right. I knew it was in one of the Carolinas, but uh, you know, it's like and he's making videos and telling people that you know, oh, you're a [ __ ] if you don't uh freehandle your snakes. And it's like, but why are you taking that risk, man? You know, like

>> sick in the head. That's why.

>> Yeah. It's just I don't know, man.

>> Yeah.

>> An unnecessary risk to take.

>> So that dude supposedly they euthanized all his animals and now he has more animals. I

>> Yeah,

>> I don't get it. But okay.

>> But see, that's why it's like, you know, that's why that's why shit's probably happening the way it is right now. And so, but I don't know. I mean on that topic guys that's also something you guys seen I'm sure are a lot of laws come and go right like a lot of like legislations that happen and then all a sudden they get lifted and it changes. I feel like that's been a part of the hobby for years now where like oh my god there's this big scare and [ __ ] they're going to do this they're going to do that and then it kind of chills out and then it comes back. Isn't that kind of like the the flow of things you guys would say? Yeah, there was one what you might remember it was uh because Ralph Davis and everybody was uh we had letters. It was a a national bill back in like 2008. [clears throat] That was a big big thing and we got that we you know as the reptile community nationwide we got that shut down. It was like HR 69 or something like that. 668 or

>> Yeah.

>> You remember that? You remember that? Yeah. Yeah. He spearheaded uh defeating that one.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like it was like Brian Porter uh it was all the big names. Barek uh

>> and uh but I remember Ralph Davis doing a lot on that one, too.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, here we are. We keep fighting and we're we're Guys, let me ask you this. Well, how I have a hard time coming up with a number, but we've seen the market through all its stages, right? How much h how much bigger can we hypothesize of the size now to what it was before? Any number come to mind at all for you guys?

>> Like how much bigger it is now than

>> Yeah. compared to before? Well, you know, uh, years ago I read an article that, uh, 2,000 people a day bring home their first reptile. And now, how true that was, I don't know. But if you think about it, a reptile makes a pretty darn good, uh, starter pet for a a child. Better than a dog or a cat because you especially like a snake, you can feed it once a week, you know. Um, and it it's a good kind of like so that they can prove um that they're responsible for taking care of an of an animal. Plus, they're hypoallergenic, so you don't have to worry, you know, if you have allergies, you know, you don't have to worry about the dander or anything like that. So, I think reptiles are, as long as they don't pass a bunch of bills, I think they'll continue to grow.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Especially there was something I heard a couple years back, maybe a little bit longer, like how much of less there's dog people now because there's more reptile people due to the fact how much lower maintenance it is to take care of a reptile compared to a dog. I mean, I it's just I feel like people want an easier life nowadays. And so, you know, a dog, you know, coming from someone who owns two pit bulls, it's like [ __ ] having kids. Like, it is a lot of work. And it's and if you don't pay attention to those dogs or give them training, it gets they're not easy to keep. Like it's even worse. Um, so that's why I kind of that made sense to me how a lot more people rather have a companionship with a reptile than a dog nowadays because how much easier it is. And then also you could keep multiple reptiles. That's usually like how it works. Not for everybody, but if you were to rate, you know, one through 10, how many people buy another reptile after their first one? [ __ ] eight. At least eight out of 10, I would say. You know what I mean? It's mostly the that's like the next stage of the itch that you get in this hobby, you know.

>> I always tell people when they're getting their first animal that it's like potato chips. You can't have just one, you know, or tattoos. Like, hey, you ever meet a person with just one tattoo? They're rare and far between, you know?

>> Yeah.

>> Especially if you're the type that takes it home and you can't stop staring at it because I'm not going to say you fall out of love, but then you're like, damn, imagine if I had another one. And then you're like, HERE WE GO AGAIN. And it's like you then, [laughter] you know, it's kind of how it begins. And I feel like that's how it should be, you know. And I don't even mean like with the idea to breed yet. [ __ ] the breeding part. Like be a kid, enjoy looking at this thing, you know, get it to eat, you know, like enjoy that beginner stage. And and I feel like, you know, that is usually the people already have that under their belt before they start into breeding. But as you know, social media is so big where somebody who has no interest in snake found one of these podcastes [clears throat] or found a real or found a [ __ ] vlog and was like, "I need a snake. Let me go find a snake. Oh, there's morph market. Holy [ __ ] I could I could buy this on an auction for $25. This is cool." And then it just comes to their house. Um, and there you go. You got a snake again, you know. Um, go ahead. And then uh you know the difference between then and now is that we have a million combos that we want to make, right? Before we had maybe five to 10,

>> right?

>> And then now we're also making these beautiful display cages,

>> you know, aside from ball pythons. Let's say,

>> you know,

>> uh for a condro, an emerald or or whatever it might be, you know, a bioactive. We're making these amazing reptile rooms now,

>> you know.

>> Yeah.

>> Stuff that's man, it blows away everything we used to do.

>> Everything.

>> Yeah,

>> by far. Um, I got to ask you guys before we kind of start diving in about your with your projects and and and talking more about paint. I'm curious on how you guys think things are headed when it comes to um I don't know like do you still think we're going to have more people tapping out the amount that we've been having or do you think that's going to calm down now? Do you think like the ones who are around are here to stay for the most part? Are we are we already past that phase of people leaving? You think? Yeah, I think most of the ones that have that are probably going to get out are are out. Um, there may still be a stragglers coming,

>> but

>> yeah. Yeah. I mean, like we were talking about earlier, this is not the first time we've seen people like and a lot of times they're not getting out of reptiles, they're trying to get out of ball pythons because there's such stiff competition. Um, one of the main reasons we got into the ball pythons is because breeding those corn snakes, I couldn't like if a baby got on the table, I couldn't pick up the little baby. I'd have to get like a credit card or something to get up underneath it where a ball python's big enough right from a hatcher that I can actually pick it up,

>> right?

>> And uh, you know, I just unless you're talking retix, I just don't see any other species that has the pallet that uh, the ball pythons have proved to have. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you said that because being an ex retic keeper and seeing some of the like color palettes on a retick, I was like, "Holy shit." Like that's the only thing I could see color-wise I could get ball pythons to run for their money. Um, was like, and I'm talking even at adult adult stages, some of these retix just look ridiculous. Like yeah,

>> beautiful. Like not also not really real looking but real and very scary at some sizes. But yeah, overall when it comes to like the safet safety of a child and like being able to like know if you're really a reptile lover or not, ball pythons are king. They're they have always been the number one like they they're like the snake of America, I would say. You know what I mean? Like no, everyone knows a ball python. I feel like for the most part they that's like a such an entry entry level snake to to get your hands on. Uh, go ahead, Biggie.

>> My my main line my main line at the table is simple. This is the number one pest snake in the world.

>> Yeah.

>> Period.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, that's it. I mean, that's what I say. And it's because of all the different factors it has. It has so many different things at at play. I mean, the colors, I mean, everything that, you know, the demeanor, you get a nice bodied snake that's super super calm, docel for the most part.

>> I mean, it's going to chill with you. I mean,

>> yeah.

>> What else do you want, you know?

>> I mean, it's always been that snake. Like I love it when someone I don't get a lot of these people, but I whoever comes over to my house and they're like, "Oh my god, you have a snake." Like and they're looking around and they're like and I go, "Dude, relax. Come to my room." And then once I get them once I get him to the room, you know, yeah, I don't go grab a condro. I'm not going to lie to you. Like I'm not gonna I'm going to make sure I put something in this damn thing's hand where or this guy's hand or woman's hand where I know it's going to be a good experience. And it's always straight to the ball pythons. Prefer preferably a baby that's not too nippy. You know what I'm saying? But even when they're nip, even when they're nippy at babies, they don't even get scared. They're just so fascinated by this little cute animal. And it's like, dude, ball pythons are more scared of you. Trust me. [laughter]

>> Yeah.

>> Um, but [snorts] anyways, all right. I want to get down uh back to paint, you know, as far as like when you guys kind of knew you had it. And what I mean by that, I mean, was it first called paint in the beginning? Who named it paint? Let's get to all that. So, uh, Charles Gillespie, who's out of North Carolina, is the originator of paint. And, uh, he he gave it to, um, Ted, who we traded, um, back then. It was a fire pewtor that we had up for 7,000 or something like that.

>> Yeah.

>> But,

>> I mean, at that time, we were still beginning in the ball python. So, I thought that was kind of a number that you couldn't get, you know, and so he when he offered to trade uh for paint, I actually didn't know what paint was. She did. And I was like, I don't need I thought he was, you know, fooling with me. And when she was showing me pictures, I was like, "Yeah, that's cool." And so, we got into it. But at the time, it was considered to do. So, we got a bunch of what we what we were told were paints. Um, and most of them were, but some of them weren't paints. And then when we talked to Limey, who's out in North Carolina as well, uh, we were at a show and I was we were about ready to get out of paint because we couldn't make a at the time a super and he said, "You got to start treating it as recessive." So, we got a male visual from him and then went back through all of our females to figure out which ones were head paint and which ones weren't. And as soon as we started treating it as recessive, that's when we started taking off with it. But we struggled with it for

>> for years.

>> Yeah.

>> Only because the whole idea of what you thought it was was not like it was

>> Yeah.

>> It was receptive. Okay. And what what year was that when Limey said, "Hey, you guys started treating it this way, not that way." When was that?

>> 2013 or 14?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. No, it might have been later than that.

>> Yeah, it had been a little bit later than that.

>> Maybe 26 or 16, something like that.

>> What were you saying, Millio?

>> I have a question for you guys. Uh, because I I went around refreshing my my eyes on some paint stuff.

>> Um, on World of Ball Pythons, there's still an animal that is mentioned as a super paint. Uh, that animal is [ __ ] incredible. Do you think that's a mis ID?

>> I'd have to see the animal. I don't know.

>> It's If you If one of you search up super paint world of ball pythons, you'll find it immediately. It's It's incredible.

>> I'm pulling it up.

>> Yeah, it's not com to me. It's much nicer than some of the paint single gene paint stuff I've seen.

>> So, why why does it say super paint though if it's recess? It was Is that

>> Well, I mean that's it's outdated, right?

>> Yeah. At the time they were considering it incomplete.

>> Is this the way it draw?

>> Let me see. Um, yeah, that looks like a lesser or something. No, that's not the one. I'm I'm thinking

>> paintball. [sighs] I tripping.

>> No, that's not that one. Uh, just look up super paint real quick on Google.

>> I did that. That's where I got this, pal. [laughter]

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean,

>> look. Super Paint right there. See that? I just clicked on that. That's what we get. [laughter]

>> See

>> that? Yeah.

>> Don't put world of ball pythons. I'm not going to send you on a goose chase, but that animal is so nice that Holy crap. I had to ask.

>> If someone could DM it to me, please. Or if that's not the right one, shoot it to my DM on on Instagram and I'll pull it up.

>> Um,

>> back then, imagine if if we're if hundreds of people are misiding now, imagine back then.

>> Yeah. Huh.

>> Um, okay. So, what was the first paint project that you guys made visually? Like, what was the first visual project for you guys?

>> Calico paint.

>> Was it? I thought we made a pass. No, you're right. I think it was Calico.

>> And what year that was 2016 or what year was that? Um,

>> yeah, it was right around 288.

>> So, we we started making visuals, but we couldn't sell them. Uh

>> Oh, okay. What was the deal with that? Like, let's talk about why you weren't able to sell them.

>> Nobody wanted them. Nobody wanted

>> Nobody was interested in the granite stuff at that time.

>> And so, we actually started using some of our females for their Kodoms and not even uh breeding for paint. And then uh we got a calico female up to size and uh and I was like we need to go back. We need to circle back to the paint stuff. And then we made that calico paint. And um that that thing came out really good and uh it really start uh start um sparked the uh paint gene. Um, so it hatched out at a Charlotte RepCon show and we uh on Saturday evening and that's our home show.

>> And so we brought it down to show Limey on Sunday and Limey's like, "You need to put that thing out and show everybody." And so we put it on the table and it hadn't shed. It had just climbed out of the egg and uh Limey pulled all of his stuff off his table uh that Sunday and it they he couldn't sell them for like $250 a piece at the time and then like overnight people were offering $1,000 for paint stuff. It was crazy. I mean just crazy.

>> Wow. And so I feel like the first time I ever heard about paint was when I had Chad Hulker on the show like five years ago. He was the first well actually no Dave Leonson talking about paint um talking at that show.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> That's funny. Yeah. So the first person to ever actually mention paint was Dave Leon on Unfiltered Reptiles podcast in 2019. But then Chad Hulker was the first person that I knew that was actually working it. Uh, but then I would also see like Sentinel in Canada, like my good good friend that's no longer a part of the hobby. Well, maybe he's like just watching what things are going, but he doesn't keep anymore. But Khalil from 514 reptiles, he had a lot of Sentinel stuff. And that's to be honest, that's Sentinel paint was the very first two that I found out like, oh, there's this one morph has two names, you know? Um, and I and I thought that was very confusing. Uh, even back then I was like, why would one uh morph have two names? Do you think that has something to do with it as well? Like the fact that

There was Sentinel and Paint going on back then, like you think that had something to do with like people not really wanting to mess with it?

Yeah, because uh Sentinel was uh labeled recessive long before Paint was, but even Sentinel back then, you had Sentinel and then Super Sentinel. Um, and then who was it that did the Sentinel?

Was it Ben?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

And um, and Limey was actually the first one that I know of that uh proved that Sentinel and Paint are uh the same gene. Uh, he bred a Sentinel to a Paint and got visuals.

Wow. But then what, how did this work where like I don't, I don't hear about Sentinel no more? Like all I hear about is Paint. Um, which like I wish we could all get to this point with some of this stuff. Like, how, how did things slowly transition to no one really mentioning Sentinel and then all of a sudden it's Paint? How'd that work?

Honestly, I think it's because um, I know this is going to sound like we're tooting, I'm tooting our own horn, but me and Limey, or me and us and Limey, um, kept pushing forward with the Paint and because we, um, because it started getting popular and that's what we had, we just kept calling it Paint. I think I maybe not, but that's that's my guess is the fact that.

And I think a lot more people had Paint than they did in Sentinel.

More people that are working with Paint have made more combos that call it Paint.

Yeah.

And so I think Paint's winning out.

Also a much better name.

Right?

Yeah.

So if you guys, let's say you guys invited you over to my, my, my collection and I show you a rack of snakes that I originally bought as Sentinel. Um, but then I start proving out stuff and I'm calling it Paint. Would you guys be mad at me or no?

No.

I think a lot of it actually, a lot of it is crossed. So I mean.

But like, but I mean, are we, are we, can you notice, we tell the difference between a Sentinel and a Paint? Like, if you were, if they were to be side by side, like, you know, how there's lines of things, which we all know there's lines of things. Don't want to get, don't want to go there yet. But I'm just saying, like, do you guys, can you tell, like, okay, that's Sentinel line, that's Paint?

Not always. Like, but.

Sometimes.

Sometimes, like, um, Antoine DPR, he, he keeps his Sentinel line fairly pure and his, you can tell because it has a more of a red tone to it.

Yeah.

On the Sentinel stuff. Pretty much everything is, it's all, most of it is crossed here in the States. Well, see, and we originally thought that Paint was just super variable. And, um, the male that we got from Limey came from this weird female that he had bought years ago that never really made anything. Well, whatever it's doing, it's very reactive with Paint. And that's why some of the Paint stuff that we make is like way more expressive than other stuff. And, uh, we've actually deemed it, and you'll see people talking about it, uh, as a separate gene called the Mwai, but that's something that we came up with while we was over at his house drinking and stuff and, you know, and then it just kind of stuck.

So, I'm sorry, remind me how the Mwai thing came about.

So it, it was from a wild female that Limey had that he bred his original Paint to.

Okay.

He was thinking that it was Yellow Belly.

Yeah.

Which it never.

It is Yellow Belly.

Yeah. But it's a weird Yellow Belly. But it never did anything really expressive until you put it into the Paint stuff.

And so that's how he found out? Is he put a Paint to what he thought was a Yellow Belly, but it was more than a Yellow Belly, is what you're saying?

Yeah. It had, had the, well, the Mwai gene in it basically. And you guys, you guys have that gene as well going in the, in your collection?

Yeah. Yeah. Because you can tell, like, you'll, you'll sit there and make a Yellow Belly Paint to Yellow Belly Paints and they look, they look totally different.

And I, I need you, I need you to mythbust this story real quick because I know, remember the last time we had somebody on talking about this. I heard they were trying to say name it, uh, Mowgli and they.

That's.

So this was actually supposed to be named Mowgli from Jungle Book, but he said Mwai instead.

Yep.

Yeah.

And it stuck.

[Laughter]

I mean, I think Mwai is sick though. I mean, it's unique, you know, but Mowgli would have been sick as [ __ ] too, but at least it's like creative and it's like, you know, God bless. It's not like just another [ __ ] rinky-dink name, you know, like. So, um, so that's a cool. I forgot who told me that, but yeah, it's funny how that happens. But, so, and so what year was this, guys? Can you remind me when you guys figured out about the Mwai stuff?

Oh, shoot. I don't know.

2022.

Yeah, it was just a couple. It was just a couple years ago.

Like I said, we were, we were sitting there talking about how they, there's such a range in the Paint stuff. We were at his house. We were the four of us were drinking and, um, he all of a sudden was like, "Wait a minute." And he took us into and showed us this big, I mean, sh, that that animal's got to be close to 5,000 grams. It's a huge female.

Yeah.

And, uh, he's had it for years. And he's like, "That was the original female that I bred my first Paint to." And, uh, that's we kind of started kind of lining stuff up and we're going, "Well, that's got to be what's happening." And then, uh, you know, he's, he's gone more into, uh, proving out the Mwai than we have. Um, he's actually been able to, I think, separate it from the Paint stuff. Um, because I've actually seen, uh, Albi, uh, selling stuff that's not Paint as Mwai. Um, so I think they've, they've worked on that and have actually figured that out as another gene.

So this is another granite gene, right, that we're talking about, like has almost like the same kind of style and effect like Paint in a sense?

Yeah.

Yeah. It just really blows it out though. So, so you would rather have that with Paint or are we trying to isolate it away and do its own thing away from Paint? Like what's.

Yeah, it's, it makes the Paints way more dynamic.

Like almost like a gravel Yellow Belly type thing. Like it's like they, they go, they go good together like that. Like it's like it's like a must, you're saying?

Yeah. Yeah. It amps up the colors. Uh, changes the pattern. Gets you more of that, um, um, granite texture, uh, along the belly. I mean, it's, it's quite nice.

All right, guys. Let's kind of talk about this real quick. Um, why do you think Granite just weren't that really appealing to people back in the, uh, 2015 and prior years? Like, is it mainly because how the like how much the Clown stuff was just blowing up? Like, was it mainly because all the brighter stuff was more sought after? I'm just curious what your guys' train of thought is of like how such a gene and, and this is like one of many cases of morphs being like, uh, whatever and then all of a sudden, boom, they're the [ __ ] hottest thing on the market. So, um, if you, I'm, I'm sure you guys had conversations with each other like, huh, it's funny how it went from not wanted to like now it's the [ __ ] odyssey people are talking about. Like, what do you think that, that, that was the reason for that?

Honestly, I think it's the influence back then. Um, Ralph Famous did a lot of, um, uh, Blade Clowns and so everybody was going for reduced stuff and, you know, I think maybe that's what it was. Um, and me and her have always been attracted to the busier patterns. So, like, uh, we, we made it a point to not try to keep Blade out of our clowns, even though back then Blade clowns were what was popular.

Yeah. But, but, okay, with Blade, right? People stopped IDing Blade and their, their [ __ ] their snakes. Like, they, they didn't care. And I, and shout out to my boy Marshall Mendes. He was the first person I ever knew who was selling snakes. And I was like, "Wait a minute. Why does it look like this?" And he would tell me, "Ah, I think there's Blade in my collection." But, and I'm like, "Well," and I remember like back then I'm thinking, "Well, the more morphs the better. Why? What are you doing? Tell people there's Blade." But for whatever. And I didn't really understand back then, like, why aren't you telling people? But it just was one of those genes where people didn't give a [ __ ] about letting people know that it was in the mix.

Yeah. Grant's correct. Uh, back then we were all kind of conditioned and taught reduced pattern. Uh, clean, clean, clean, clean reduced pattern.

Yeah.

Uh, now it's like the opposite. We're looking for.

Craziness.

For busy patterns and and pixelation, you know, uh, you know, look at, look at Paint, look at, uh, you know, Cosmos, look at Trick, look at Blitz. Look, you know, well, all three of those. Um, we're all, we're, we're all looking for pixelation and and and pattern and and busyiness and, you know, we're trying to make the ball python the opposite of what we were before, right? Would you guys agree with that?

Yeah.

Yeah. And, uh, I think Justin was probably one of the first ones that was, uh, always talking about the busy pattern clowns, or at least he's the first one I remember.

Talking about it.

Yeah, for sure.

Somebody just said Blade is Scrambler.

[Laughter]

I mean, it's, it's in a lot of stuff and people don't know. I mean, still to this day.

You know.

Oh, yeah.

So, I mean.

[Laughter]

The chats are ruthless.

Yeah.

[Laughter]

But on, okay, here's the thing though. Like I remember the reason why I was tripping out because I think I, I had made or one of the things I wanted to make was like a Super Blade Clown. Um, cuz I just remember seeing how clean they looked, right? And so, and for me, I just thought like, "Wow, what a project to work." But talking to people who were well ahead of me, um, just had certain things that they didn't care to talk about. And this kind of goes back to like people not saying they had Hypo in the mix, like, like hiding snakes that were Hypo for whatever reason. Um, I mean, are, are there still genes out there that people are hiding that they have? You think? Like, I, I think that's still a thing. I think that there's still snakes being sold that might have Fire or something in it, but they're not telling people. And you think that's accurate or no?

No, I think that's accurate. I think too, uh, anybody that goes to a show, uh, and picks up anything, there's a good chance that that thing's het for something anymore.

Yeah.

You know, because we don't, if it's a possible het, we don't even mark it. You know, if somebody asks, we'll tell them it might be possible het, but and then, you know, but like I remember running into that with the corn snakes all the time. You'd sit there and breed for one thing and, and next thing you know, it's throwing Maws and Snows and it's like, "Well, I didn't even know those were het for that." You know? And I think that's where the ball pythons are going.

Yeah, I agree. There's, you're buying an animal, even back then, you know, they're, to get that sale, they're probably keeping something out. Um, I mean, at the end of the day, uh, whether, whether it's good for you or bad for you, they, they just want that sale. Uh, I think, uh, I mean, now it's, it's worse, but it still happened back then a lot as well.

Um, kind of embarrassing to ask this, but is Paint already something you could test on RGI yet, or am I tripping?

No, not yet. I know they're still working on it. Um, Charlie is pretty close to it. Um, it's not 100%, you know, it's like he's like 99.5 on his Paint test.

And so like, I'm curious since you guys are working hard towards that, which I give you mad respect for doing. Um, like how, how do you accomplish such a thing? Like, how are you guys, like, when Charlie tells you, like, we're that close, right? Like, what are you, um, having to do? Just continue to send in more sheds, like influencing other people to send more sheds. Like, how are you guys getting there?

Yeah, just keep, keep sending in sheds as much as I can, you know? And, and then try and get other people to send in sheds as well.

How long you guys been doing that for now? The sheds.

God, it feels like a couple. It feels like at least almost maybe two years now. Yeah.

Feels like.

Right. But such a thing to have to do, right? Like in your guys' head, you're like, we have to do this. Like, we got to get this thing tested, right? Like.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Okay.

There's a lot of people out there that still think they have, you know, Paint and they don't.

Yeah. One of many cases.

Well, I mean, it's just like, uh, back in the day with the, uh, pods, you know, people were selling normals as het pods. I think the same. I think the same thing when, uh, you know, Paint got real popular. Uh, we saw, we started seeing a lot of het Paints for sale.

Yeah. It went from like two to all of a sudden there was 30 and it's like, where did all these come from?

Dude, and, and think about that. Like, I, I got in right around the time before, like, you know, obviously shed testing was all a thing, but like selling fake hets was still a thing back then. Um, and I've, man, listen.

[Sighs and gasps]

Shout out to Mark Bailey. Mark Bailey is the only guy I have not heard any [ __ ] up stories about. But I've heard so many of this like fake het selling to each other type thing being like a [ __ ] thing back then. And I'm talking [ __ ] people over for thousands. Like, and, and then also like them waiting years to raise them up and then breeding just to find out they don't have hets. Like, that's crazy work, dude, right there.

Yeah.

But like also think about like, this is why we should be kissing RGI and [ __ ] shed testing companies' feet right now. Like, this is going to save a lot of us like so much headache and that's why it, to me, if I knew I had a gene, guys, and I was so confident about it, shed testing is the only way. Like, that's the only way I'm going to be able to stand tall on it. I don't see no other, no other way around it, you know? Let me tell you guys, throughout the years, I got really lucky. I never, I never, in the beginning, I bought some animals and I, I had to do a chargeback because the guy was was scamming everyone, right? This was early 2005 for some het Albinos. But other than that, I was lucky, man. I was really selective with who I bought hets from and I produced a lot of my hets. Thank, thank God. But let me tell you guys, anyone out there now with shed testing, you're completely protected. And you, and you should still be selective of who you're buying hets from, in my opinion.

For sure.

Yeah. Did you guys ever get burned with hets?

No, not really. Well, some of the stuff that we got.

That was a trade. That was a trade. Uh, but yeah, all the other stuff we.

You know, like, you know, when we got, uh, Clowns, we got visual Clowns, but like the, the Pieds, you know, uh, we, you know.

We bought hets.

But we bought them from, uh, Dan Wolf, you know, like we went to people that had a good reputation. Um, and we're actually making Pieds. Like, you know, I don't like when we first started making het Clowns, we couldn't sell Clowns. And I, and kind of good on the people because we didn't, so we started off with two female Clowns and then we bred them and made hets, but we didn't have any Clowns to show that we had the Clown gene. And so we didn't sell any of those het Clowns until we started making visual Clowns and, you know, and so, you know, in my opinion, I thought that was good on the people to, you know, because we didn't have anything on our table that showed that we had the Clown gene other than it said, hey.

Yeah. Um, I don't know, did, was there anything like that going on for you coming up? Um, a lot of my recessive stuff that I bred early was for me. Um, what I could tell you, I kept a lot of my stuff and then some stuff I just wholesaled out. Um, but, you know, my, my first experience buying a het, uh, in person was with Pete, you know, and Pete gave me the whole rundown of of.

Pete who?

Pete Call.

Yeah, Pete Call. The whole rundown of the of the the markers and everything. And bro, I remember that like if it was five minutes ago, I was so interested and, and bro, not that he was a hero, but I, I was like, man, I got a, a het Pied from from the guy.

That originated the Pied gene.

So, yeah, those things feel amazing. And, and what I'm going to tell you guys out there is get your hets from people that, that you, you don't have to worry about it.

Yeah. And, and, and if you have, and if you don't, make sure you know you have shed testing at the end of the day. But yeah, you guys got me going down memory lane right now.

[Laughter]

You know, shout out to, you know, shout out to bringing up Pete Call. That's a [ __ ] legend right there, bro. Like, you want to talk about like the reason why Pieds went to the level that they're at because of that man. I remember, I remember hearing like, okay, I remember, I forget what, what show might have been Daytona, but I heard Pete would keep a stash of Pieds somewhere not on the table and he would only put one on the table and he would put it for like $30,000. It would sell and then he would go get one other one and put one there for $30,000 and he would just keep recycling. Mark Bailey told me the story that he would just keep putting one like as they were selling, but wouldn't put all of them on the table. He'd only put one at a time and it was like priced at like $30k and then, and they would [ __ ] sell like this.

Crazy, dude. And then I heard, then I heard he had like a thousand Pieds at one point or something like that where he had like a whole wall that was just all Pieds, like all dedicated to Pieds. Like he was like the Pied, he was like the Pied king, right? Like that was.

Yeah.

[Clears throat]

[ __ ] crazy [ __ ] man.

Yeah, man. This, this game of ours, uh, even from its origin, it's, it's fantastic. It's unstoppable. It's unstoppable. It's.

Nothing like it.

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I'm Theresa, and we are Pragm. We are based in Czech Republic, a small country in the middle of Europe.

We really love animals that revolve around multi-recessive projects and one of our very favorites is Hypo. We're really looking forward to clutches that are coming this season and some of those are Hypo Clown, DG Clown, Hypo DG Clown, and one of our all-time favorites, Hypo Puzzle. Hope you enjoyed the next episode on Trap Talk, the greatest reptile network in the world.

If you guys want to see next level cutting edge ball python projects, please make sure you head over to their Instagram to follow all their amazing work and head over to their website to see what they could possibly have available by heading over to progmorphs.com. Thank you again, Devin and Theresa, for bringing some of the biggest heat worldwide in the ball python game. If you want to be organized and if you want to be cutting edge in the ball python game, then you don't want to miss this. Shout out to today's sponsor and that's Clutch. Number one Ball Python organization app in the game. No better place to start off than by using this [music] app. Clutch is an organization app that helps you organize all your Ball Python projects. It also helps your peers and your fellow community members look at what you possibly have coming for the upcoming Ball Python season, what you have currently available on Warf Market. It's so awesome to be ahead of the game by using organization app like Clutch. Thank you so much the entire Clutch team, amazing team over at Clutch. If I were you, I would head over to Clutch's Instagram account and I would also head over to their website, try it out, see how it works for you, but especially if you're just now coming into this, before you build your reptile collection, I would do it organized and I would do it with Clutch. Thank you, Clutch, for being so amazing. Excited to hear what Clutch has to bring in the near future. J. All right, we're back at it. Please hit that like button. Second halftime of the show. And, uh, yeah, you know, I have this next topic I want to mention to you guys. Um, you know, mainly because I feel like you guys probably have a lot to speak on this, but obviously one of the things that we have to learn to adjust on is like pricing, right? I think that's the biggest reality check people are facing in a time like today is like seeing how one project could go from one price to like a whole different price in three years. Um, with Paint, I'm curious because it went from something that nobody really gave a [ __ ] about to now all of a sudden people were talking about it. So, were you guys like firm on your price even back then when people weren't really wanting it, or like, how do you go about having a price on something that people aren't really giving it two shits about, but then holding down on it to to the point where it's at now? I don't know how you delegated that.

Uh, I mean, like I said, I think, uh, we were trying to sell visuals for like $250 or something like that at the.

At one point.

And, uh.

Yeah, like six, seven years ago.

And like I said, like I said, we stopped, we stopped even breeding for that. But it being, you know, and I kept going back to Limey telling me that it was a recessive, you know, and when I saw, you know, Justin doing all of the recessive stuff and how recessives really kind of, you know, hold their value because you can't just jump in real quick on a recessive, you know, you got to build up your collection and, uh, grow stuff up. And I was like, we, we got to get back to this Paint, you know, with it being a recessive. Um, and I think that's how we ended up getting to where we're at with it.

Okay. Because here, okay, this is a good, good example. So, you said $250. In what year was this? 2015 or 2016. What are you trying to sell these for?

Yeah, somewhere in there. Yeah.

Yeah. Like nobody wanted them. They'd walk up and just be like, "$250 for that?" Or, you know, "$400 for," or "$450 for a Pied," and they would go for the Pied every time.

I think it was Bob V show, or could have been a Daytona. Somebody had a Paint Hypo for $20,000.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's [ __ ] insane how that could happen.

Yeah, it's definitely gone up for sure. Um, it was like once we, once we made that Calico Paint at the Charlotte show, the the price really started to skyrocket. You like the visual Paints went up to like $1,000 overnight.

Well, and then, uh.

And then.

Every year, like, um.

W made a, uh, Bongo Yellow Belly Paint that was just, it, that thing was really cool. And then, um, I can't think of his name. He made a Black Pastel. Black Pastel something Paint. It was really nice.

Huh?

Black Pastel Vanilla.

That might have been it. Yeah.

That thing. I love Black Pastel and Paint, you know. Um, so everybody's making these animals that you're just, you know, like that. And then like, um, last year we made that Cinnamon, uh, Pink Clown and it just, it looked like denim jeans with red, uh, round ink watches on it when it came out, you know, and it just.

Why don't, why don't we show this year's animal and that animal? Um, this, the Spotnose Yellow Belly, uh, Pink Clown.

Yeah.

That's incredible.

Yeah. Yeah. We were.

Were you guys the first one to hit Paint into Clown visually?

No. Uh, Ernesto from, uh, Bio Exotics, I think it was.

Ernesto, that dude, that's Ernesto has been around for a minute, right?

Yeah. He made the first, uh, Paint Clown. He sold, sold a pair to to Justin.

Ah, I remember. I, dude, Ernesto, if you used to listen to Trap Talk, hope you're doing good, buddy. Um, he, he came up to me at one of my first Tinley's and gave me props on my show and then I'm like, "Thanks, man." And then I found out who he was. He's just a dude behind the scenes who was really into Paint and then sold that to Justin. Right.

Huh.

He, he, he's very much in the on the sidelines. He's just like hangs out and then he just, just drops bad stuff.

[Laughter]

Hey, not a bad way to do it. You know what I mean? You avoid a lot of headaches like that, not having to give a [ __ ]. But, you know, again, nowadays, you're, you're almost, if you're new, of course, you're doing yourself a disservice by not using social media. I don't think you can't do it without social media. I don't think you can do it without social media nowadays.

So, guys, hands down, is this your favorite Paint animal you've ever seen?

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

Is it male or female?

Female.

You guys are, you guys bummed about it being a female?

No.

No. That was a, so that was a double hit to double hit. So.

Oh, wow.

And we hit on the two, um, there was, no, there was, uh, what was.

The only thing I missed was Fire on that?

Yeah. The, yeah, the only thing that we missed on that was Fire. So we hit everything but Fire on a double het to double hit. So.

Okay. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Good.

Good, right? I would say. Right.

Well, no. I think the Fire is going to amp it up. Oh, so you're saying Fire would have helped in this case?

Oh, yeah. We made a, um.

A Fire Paint Clown and that, that's crazy.

Yeah. In the same clutch and it's het for Clown.

Yeah.

It's female, too.

That's awesome. So, the idea with Paint and Clown, like that's going to be the, the longevity of the, the project, right? Like, you want Paint and Clown and all your stuff, or you going to be very mindful with it, or how you work in that?

Well, we're, we're doing a lot of of Pink Clown stuff, but we're also trying to branch it out into, um, into Pied and Hypo.

Hypo. Yeah. I mean, I, I can't imagine if that, that a Hypo version of that or.

Oh, yeah.

DG Hypo version of that would be [ __ ] insane.

The only thing with the DG is that it might reduce.

Pattern a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think the DG is definitely gonna clean it up too much.

Hypo won't. No.

That's why that's where Hypo comes in handy, like, because it's like.

Yeah, it doesn't [ __ ] with the pattern, you know? And I think that's why True Ghosts, uh, some True Ghost projects will be better without DG, or am I wrong, you think, Chameleia? Like, do you think when it comes to True Ghost stuff, like DG still a must, or you should be careful with it even with that?

Uh, is that yellow, that yellowing thing we talked about, right? Like.

I, yeah, I think the animal will be perfect without Pied. The one with Pied, the yellow was brought in like the animals that were hit recently. Um, once you add that other, another level of, let's say, brown in there.

Yeah.

It turns yellow. I, that's not for me. Yeah.

Do you guys, um, hold on. What were we just talking about? What, what morph? I'm sorry. My mind just went [ __ ] left.

True Ghost.

True Ghost. Do you guys work at all, Mary and Grant?

Yeah.

Yeah. What, what, what exact exotic projects are you guys pursuing?

Well, I've been trying to hit a, a DG Exanthic for a couple of years and I, I guess that's just going to be another one of my Lavender Albino G Stripe sagas of nine years of trying to hit it.

Oh, man.

Damn. You said the live Lavender G Stripe?

Yeah, it took us nine years to finally hit that.

Yeah. Over a hundred eggs.

Holy [ __ ].

Yeah. Be like that, right?

It'd be like that for sure.

Cuz Lavender now is just not, it's kind of, uh, I don't know. It's not really popping. Hate to say, right? Am I tripping?

No, you're right. We still work with it because we like it, though.

It's still pretty snake. Like, you'll be seeing some [ __ ] at shows where it's like, "Whoa, that thing looks gorgeous." Like, it's like, you can't deny that it's still like some of those projects are so eye appealing and it's like, you got, you got to get your hands on some of that stuff. But then, I don't know. It's just not really popping. It's crazy. It's like a table sink.

Yeah.

A hard snake to hit though. That's what I'm saying. Like, you got to work hard to to hit that [ __ ].

But what's funny, what's funny about the ball python game is we were just talking about Paint being.

You know.

Yeah.

You know, $200 snake, right?

Yeah.

I mean, we're going to continue to see these situations where stuff is just, it comes out of nowhere and it takes over again, right, guys?

I think Lavender Era will be back. I think there's gonna be some crazy Lavender Era again because, because again, that color palette, you can't, you can't deny it. It's crazy. Like, remember Justin made that Starburst snake or some [ __ ] like that, or he [ __ ] called it Starburst and I remember seeing that in person, I was like.

Wow, like, dude, that's a real snake. Um, but then, yeah, just kind of just chilled out after that, you know, but you can't put, you can't, you can't put everything like gone for good. Like, dude, all this [ __ ] could just come right back. So, yeah.

Um.

I have a question for you guys without giving away any secrets, okay?

Of where you might be going with stuff. Um.

What's that next Paint combo that's gonna.

Really knock our socks off? Because you guys are the pros. I, I feel like I have to ask you that, you know.

So, we're working, uh, Lace into it. Uh, because if you look at the White Lace, you still get that, um, peppering on the bottom, you know, which we like, but man, those laces, they're, they're like Desert Ghost. They're so bright. Uh, even the Lace, um, they get brighter with age, kind of like a Desert Ghost without cleaning up all that noise that you want.

At least that's what I think 100%. Um, I'm actually going through something. I just got a DM or I think during commercial break, might have been you, Grant, or Mary. Um, but this is showing that Mwai.

Yeah.

Snake we were talking about. So, um, and yeah, who's this person? Tom, I think his name is, is a buddy of yours. Tommy, Tommy's Python Balls. Tommy's Python.

That's the guy that I sold it to. He posted a picture of, picture of it.

So, you guys produce this right here?

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a Yellow Belly Mwai Paint.

Wow.

That's nice.

See how the the Mwai just really, like, it amps up the coloring and it, like, really, like, blows out the pattern, right?

But, okay, for instance, are we trying to do that on Paint?

I think anything that's going to kind of add to that granity, blow, just blowing it out is definitely going to help it.

We suspect that, uh, Spotnose Yellow Belly Paint has modified.

The one we just looked at.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

I, I don't fully understand the Mwai. Like I said, you know, it, it blows out the alien heads into like a donut.

So, it's either that, it's either that doing it, or, um, that's just what that gene does. But it's just weird that a lot of the alien heads with the Mwai's get blown out into donuts instead of alien heads.

Did you guys hold back anything like this? Are you guys sitting on anything that has these genetics in it?

Oh, yeah.

And so what's the game plan? Again, like said, without telling us maybe too much, what direction are you trying to take a snake like this?

Uh, well, I mean, we like Fire because Fire, uh, ages nice and then, like, uh, the, like I was saying, the adding Lace to stuff like that.

Oh, Lace. But like White Lace, right? Or, or is that going to be too much?

No, I think White Lace. But I mean, you got to do the White Lace and then make your Lace.

Pets and then bring them back.

Yeah. I'm, I'm wondering like, because I've seen White Lace, how it ages, it's [ __ ] gorgeous. Ages way better than DG. But I'm wondering if like, there's some cases of White Lace that would bring back pattern, but like better, you know? Yeah. Like actually, like show, like, so like, for instance, like you see how like you talked about Mwai kind of blowing out some of the Paint pattern, like you could see it and it's kind of blown out. I wonder if you put White Lace into this if it brings that back, but like different, like more, like I don't know. I, I've just seen some [ __ ] with Justin's and I'm like, "Holy [ __ ], White Lace is like, I'm obsessed with that gene." I really am. Like, that's, that's something I really want to, uh, in the next few years, start producing a lot of this White Lace stuff into like my visual stuff.

Yeah, I agree with you guys. I love, I love what White Lace Yellow Bellies specifically look like.

Yeah.

All the, the pattern on the belly, the extra pixelation. I think it, I think it would be, I think it'd be an amazing animal once you guys hit it. Yeah, for sure.

You guys working Puzzle or no?

No.

Curious. Um, do you think Puzzle would do good in a, a gene like Paint?

Honestly, I, from what I've seen with Puzzle, I think Puzzle will just bully the hell out of Paint. That's just my personal opinion.

Bully, you said?

Yeah. Like it just cover it up, bully it out. Um, I could be wrong. Uh, somebody might make a Puzzle Paint that I go, "Okay, that I was totally wrong with that." But, um, most of the Puzzles that you see, they're very obvious that they're Puzzle. Like, I've not seen very many that change the pattern too much.

Yeah.

Well, I'm going to tell you guys this. Um, I love the Hurricane, uh, and the Trick Puzzles I've seen. I hope that the Paint Puzzle kind of follows that mold because, uh, the Hurricane, uh, Paints that Limey hit and the Blitz Paints.

Uh, that I saw today.

They're, they're incredible. They make me want to go buy and get into Paint right now.

Whoa.

Yeah, Paint came out really nice.

Yes.

Who made that? Who made that that, uh, that combo? The Blitz Paint. Um.

Yeah.

He was on the show before. Um.

There goes Amo's memory again.

No, I don't, I, I haven't dealt with this guy.

Wasn't it Milbr?

Milbr has a lot of Blitz Paint stuff.

Jake, Jake Milbrandt.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's the name. Yeah. And also Limey hit the Hurricanes.

Okay. Jake, but Mil, Jake's never been on the show with you, right? He came on with me, right?

With you. With you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Jake. Is he still in the ball pythons or is he out? I thought I thought he got out. Is he more like more in the carpets now and [ __ ] like that? Am I tripping?

I haven't seen the guy really.

Oh, no, he's still in it. No, no, he's still in ball pythons.

Okay.

Yeah, he actually, he, now I remember, he kind of converted his company with somebody else.

Yeah, he's another one that's just like real lowkey and then just.

Drop some mad stuff.

Yeah, he, he, he did, he, he was like an Orneso to me, too. He popped up out of Tinley and was like, "Hey, uh, Jake Milbrandt introduced himself. Real nice guy, knew Gary Scavenino. And so, like, you know, was Yeah, definitely. That's why I'm like, there's so many of those guys, man, that are doing work, but they're just silent. They're just, they're chilling. Like, they got a life, you know? Not, not that we don't have a life. I'm just saying, like, like it's like they don't, it's not that important to be out there so much. You know what I mean? Um, but there's, you know, Jake's also been around for years as well. Like, I mean, that's more of the OG era. I feel like you're, you know, like, like Mark Bailey Reptiles is the only guy I know who could do what he's doing without a website, without a [ __ ] Instagram, just he'll throw [ __ ] on Morph Market and has his, you know, customer clientele on his phone and that's all he needs. And like I tried to get the guy to get his Instagram so many times, he's like, "For what the [ __ ] I need that for?" And I'm like, "Never mind."

[Laughter]

Must be nice.

Uh, OG, OG's gonna do what OG does.

Yes. Especially if it's working, right? Like, you know, an OG is not going to stop something that's working for him, you know. Yeah.

Um, and that's just kind of how it works. But, um, other than Paint, guys, is there anything else you guys are excited about? Like, you know, I know Paint's been mainly the the the meat and potatoes of tonight's episode, but I'm wondering if there's something else under your guys' sleeve that you're not letting us know about, maybe, or you're excited about. You want to spill some beans?

I mean, we do a lot of work with the Clowns. That's still one of our favorite dwarfs out there is Clown.

Clown. Oh, so that's why you don't have Puzzle because you're Team Clown?

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, in my, I mean, I'm a sucker for a Clown. Uh.

Yeah.

Such a Spotnose. Like, and then the Spotnose Clown to me is like one of the best combos out there. I found out this year how crazy Spotnose could change a whole combo and Clown, like, just just Spotnose. Because I remember, I thought I remember I thought I had something like next level crazy and I, I just never hatched out Spotnose Clown combos before. It was my first time. So like having something that bright and almost like, you know, gives you like a spidery look. It's crazy, but it's like without the wobble, you know, it's like, it was really cool to see how powerful Spotnose could be. And I'm with you, Grant. Like, I'm, I want Spotnose in a lot of my [ __ ], you know? But also Spotnose can be dicey in certain areas. Am I, am I right, Amelio? Like, aren't you kind of careful with Spotnose, Emilio?

Um, you know me, I, I've just been careful for it not with it not to take over a lot of my collection.

Yeah.

Uh, but yeah, there's stuff you can't breed it to because of it does have a super mild wobble. But I mean, I mean, I love it. I love Spot. I just, uh, with me, I just make sure it's not everywhere, you know?

Like, stuff.

Yeah. Just like you, we, we try to avoid doing Spotnose to Spotnose, uh, pairings. Try to avoid the power ball.

Yeah.

The wobble really shows up.

Yep.

It's, but it's great. Again, do your thing, but there's people who are still pursuing power balls out there. That's crazy. I mean, they're hitting them by mistake now and, and, you know, they, they are being marketed as, as, you know, just, they're, they're not as bad as people say. I mean, I don't know that, you know, to each their own, right? I mean.

I guess.

[Laughter]

Um, is there anything that you guys avoid like in your projects or like, I mean, like we're talking about, is there anything that you guys are like making sure it doesn't go back into like this, this or that, like careful with it?

Not really.

No, not really. I mean, we don't have very much. There's, we have very little Spider stuff. Uh, we've.

No.

And we haven't given up on Spider either. We made a Bongo Spider and the Bongo reaction with the Spider was one of the strongest I've ever seen with a Spider and so far they have no noticeable wobble.

So.

Where's, where's Bongo at? Can you guys up, catch me up to speed where Bongo's at? Because feel like that's a name, you know, it comes and goes, you know, you see stuff here and there, but where's it at since you guys are working it?

Um, so it, that's another one that it was real popular. Who had it? Who, who could get it from?

Um, it.

Um.

Breeder Circle. Did they start Bongo or.

He's, he, we picked up a Bongo from the Breeder Circle. But there was, um, Limey Nose at the shows. Older guy. Anyways, our first Bongo we got from him and I, it was a Pastel Bongo and, um.

Oh, Ben Cole.

Ben Cole.

Yeah, Ben Cole.

Was our.

And, um, he was, he kind of started the Bongo and then nobody really worked with the Bongo, but that's another one of our, the genes that we just absolutely love. Uh, it works great with Spotnose. Um, and, uh, I think we've seen it kind of pick up since we've been doing it, but yeah, not.

Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't picked up more. It.

It does some wild stuff and Clown and pretty much everything else. Uh, Mike and Mike from Ramy Worlds, he's doing a lot of work with the.

Bongo stuff. It's definitely gained some legs recently. It's for sure.

Yeah. You know, and I love mainly like your guys's thing is like standing tall on a project you believe in. Um, because again, like, and this is maybe a part of like the influence that we had during COVID of people just diving into projects without even methodically thinking, do they really want to work it even when it's not popular? Because everybody bought what was popular.

And then when it came down to making popular stuff, they can't sell it. Want to know why? It's all there. It's all available. Everybody's making it. And that's why it's like, dude, you're you're too late. Um, that's why it's good to work something that you are just happy looking at because if it's something that's not popular, who gives a [ __ ] You like it?

And then you just never know. This $200 snake that nobody wants is [ __ ] 20,000 when you put another recessment in, all of the sudden, what the [ __ ] Your life changes just like that.

Yeah. I don't I don't understand why you would work a project that you don't like to look at. Like that just blows my mind.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It goes a lot more than just buying. Like you got to really [ __ ] know this is something you want. Like you got to see something in it. Like that's what you know mainly with the exanti projects. Like you got to see something with it. You got to have something that just drives you insane to where you just want to just, you know, who gives a [ __ ] if it takes five, six years. Like you don't you're not even thinking of the time. That's that's why like there's so many things I got into in the reptile game where I like, yeah, it could take this long, but I didn't give a [ __ ] Like I, as long as I do it, you know, as long as it happens at some point, I'm okay with. And and but the whole timeline thing like getting into projects that are just trendy or popular and having a time frame of when you need to make make it, you know, like those are the two biggest killers in any new hobbyist coming in wanting to breed. Is putting that kind of pressure on them on themselves, you know?

Yeah. Well, I mean, I we we did suffer from that. I mean, uh, we bought um, uh, three adult ivory females. Uh, and uh, they didn't breed for us for the first two years. But a lot of people don't realize that those adults do not adjust to your collection as fast as a baby does, you know. So,

Dude. Yeah. You know, we bought a Mojave one time. It was 1,800 grams. It didn't eat for the first nine months. Never ate. Never ate. And then one day it started eating and she was 5,000 grams when we sold her. I mean, she just never stopped.

Yep. It'd be like that. [laughter] I sold to a guy and it didn't need for for him for 12 months.

Yeah.

Yeah. Crazy. Sort of wish, this is why I sort of wish we had more actual evidence of like big adults or if there is even big adult ball pythons in the wild. Like, are they getting to 5,000 grams in the [ __ ] wild? You know what I'm saying? Um, and that's why when sometimes when people get a snake that's an adult, that's a big [ __ ] snake, if it's not trying to eat, it's not going to eat, especially when it knows it has all this food in in its system and it's a big snake, those [ __ ] will shut off for over a year sometimes. Um, and then all a sudden they'll just eat like nothing happened. And you know, I but also too, like as long as you know that could be a factor bringing in an adult snake, which I think in 2025, guys, you shouldn't shouldn't be buying adult snakes. You know, I get they're out there. Don't you know, do what you got to do, but know that you're gambling. You're rolling the dice every time. You know, because you got to ask yourself, if it's a good deal and if it's a nice snake, why is this person getting rid of it? Okay. Like, how's this collection? How are the other animals? Like, there's just a list of things and I hope you're quarantined because I don't think ball python, that many ball python people give a [ __ ] about quarantine. They don't they don't think that's a thing. Like, you know what I mean? Until you [ __ ] around and find out and then you're like, oh [ __ ] I got Nido.

If you've been in here long enough, you've heard the horror stories.

Yeah.

Yeah. For sure.

I mean, we quarantine everything and we test everything that comes in and it actually makes us nervous to do the shows, you know, because

Yeah. I don't blame you. That's your biggest uh opening. Um, so we like

Yeah.

We pre-treat our alpha dry with prevent so that way when they're on it at the show, if somebody does bring a snake by or, you know, um, has been holding a snake that has mites, you know, that's our first line of defense is hopefully that prevent gets them right there at the the mite before it can even get onto the snake. Yeah. Um, yeah. I don't I don't know, Amelia. I mean, how do how do you delegate that, Amelio? You do a lot of shows. So, are you wor I mean, what do you have to say to that?

All the animals that are that are going to shows, they come back and and there's a quarantine rack for those animals and they have a little piece of pest strip. Uh, honestly, I'm not using a ton of provenite. It's here. If I need it, I use it. But, uh, so far, I've only had an issue once. I've done 69 shows. Um, what I can tell you guys is that I don't let anyone hold any animals that have animals on them. And I am not afraid to tell them to back off the table.

Oh.

It's not even that though. How many times you've been at a show and an animal got out from another vendor?

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, that's happened. Yeah, that's happened. You know.

Yeah.

That animal has free reign all night long, you know.

Yeah, for sure.

It's just it's something you can't stop from happening when it happens sometimes. Like like it could be that one minute you go to the bathroom or some [ __ ] and it's [ __ ] some [ __ ] dirty grimy dude just came by your table or something like it. It just it could happen that easy. Like even even walking your stuff out of the show, going by other people's boots, like just I to me, I it freaks me out. Um

Again, I'm not too worried with ball pythons as long as I have somewhere to put them and look at them after I bring them back from a show, you know? That's my that's my method of doing it. Um, I was going to originally think about bringing condos to Pomona this January, but I'm like, [ __ ] that. Like if took me this long to finally make these [ __ ] last thing I want to do is take them to the show and something like we're just talking about happens and

Then what? Then I have to go public about it. [laughter]

Yeah.

Because it's my job. That's what I do for a living. I go public about it every time. Sucks.

But yeah, let me let me let me hit something I wanted to hit earlier. If you do get an adult ball python and it's it's clean and you quarantine it, I if I was you guys, and this is for viewers out there, I wouldn't breed it the first year. I'd give that animal a year off. Let it adjust to your system.

Let it adjust to your collection, to to you, to how you do things. That's that's what's I've had success with that with a little bit of adults that I brought in, you know? I just wanted to say that.

Yeah.

I give I give the animal a year off and it's it's just there, you know, for a full year.

The whole stress thing becomes more of a factor, I think, when they're older. Like the older they are, the whole like adjustment because you got to think if they've been in a collection for so long, that's all they know. And

Dude, even even people like when you go to someone else's room, you know, you can feel a difference. Like,

It's not your room. Like your room is your room. Like everything is. And think about it, if it's been there for years, that that snake is so just [ __ ] conditioned to be in that room. So when it goes from that point to someone else's rack who could be cooking them hotter or whatever, whatever little adjustment it's not used to, that could have an effect on the whole snake state of mind and whatever, you know, which it just takes time to adjust for the most part. Like you just got to get them time to acclimate. Get the [ __ ] to eat. Once you're eating, you're good, you know? But even when they're not eating, if it's a big snake, don't stress it. Just give it time, you know? Um, yeah, because I I think definitely when a snake is that big, it's not going to die from starvation. Um, it it's more likely to die from not drinking. Like hydration is going to be the most important thing is making sure it's drinking water. And you could tell when a snake's not drinking water. It'll visibly look like [ __ ] U snake should be drinking water, too. So, I don't know. There's just I think also like this is why I think kind of slowing down and being just more on the obsessive pet keeping side of things. You like you could see what a snake looks like when it's healthy. Like you you know what you're looking at when you're seeing a healthy snake versus a snake that isn't doing too well or or like whatever. You could just see in its demeanor or the way it's coiled or something. I I don't know. I feel like I could spot a sick snake from a mile away sometimes. Uh, but that's because I see these guys every day, you know? So, um, I don't know. You know, were you gonna say something?

Oh, yeah. Lethargic snakes, you know, the way they coil, the way they ball up. I mean, if if if it don't look right, it ain't right. Right, guys?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Cool. Wrap-up topic of the episode. I'll go first and then we'll let Amelia go. Um, you know, at this point, guys, I like to ask this question to a lot of veterans. Um, you know, if somebody out there just isn't sure about this, just because, you know, I mean, if you if you associate yourself with the negative part of the hobby, you're going to hear nothing but negative [ __ ] right? U, but the people who are doing work, the ones who are actually having success, having fun, you don't hear them complaining, right? So, if you have somebody that's in the middle, guys, um, and they're maybe not know if they're meant or built for this, um, but they're like three, four years in deep, what would you have to, what's your recommendation for people like you who've been been around as long as you have?

It goes back to, you know, breed what you like. Um,

And I always tell say that she's her best customer.

You know, gotta be, dude. Amen.

If you're not your best customer, then you're not doing something right.

Don't do it. If you're not trying if you're not trying to be your first buyer,

Don't do it. Like that's that's what this is about. Like I remember like when I get my first clutch, I my very first thought was I cannot wait to pick out the ones I want to keep.

Yeah.

Like, and that's what it should be to the end of time. Like you should always be the one where I get mine and that's what I want to hold on to and then you know, figure out the rest, right Emilio?

Yeah, 100%.

Gotta be your number one customer, dude. So, I agree and I feel like that's keeps the excitement. Like, you should be you should want to be your number one customer. And if you're not, then you're not breeding the right stuff. Like, there's something wrong. Like, if you're not trying to get a piece of that clutch that's cooking right now in your incubator, dude, what are you doing? That's the wrong pair. Sorry. You're not paying the right thing.

People that have been in it forever, the only thing they sell at those shows is their byproduct for the uh projects they're trying to get,

Right, dude. [ __ ] epic. All right. All right. What do you got, Biggie?

All right. I I uh I can relate to I can relate to this with you guys. Um, I'm going to ask you this because I got into Exantic in 2009 when no one gave a [ __ ]

Right?

Yeah.

How does it feel for both of you that your baby is a top six recessive again or now or how does it feel? Get tell me how good it feels to, you know, have the fortitude to keep working something that, man, at one point you were like, "Oh my god, like, what what are these people not seeing?" Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm just really happy that, you know, paint is finally getting, you know, what it deserves as far as, you know, people finally seeing what it can do.

Yeah. I And I'm really happy that it it's reacted with our favorite genes so well, like spot nose and clown and stuff like that. That just, that's even a bonus for us. Yeah, I'm really happy for you guys. I'm really happy for Limey, uh, you know, Travis, you know, a lot of the, you know, the guys that the that really believe in this project. I'm really really happy for them and I can't wait to to to see what you guys continue continue to produce because uh, it's very interesting to see. So, it's got a lot of legs.

Yeah. I gotta say paint's my favorite granite gene right now in the game.

Yeah. So, I'm excited to see, too. And we haven't seen nothing yet, which is great. Like, I I, you know, I think in a year from now, we bring you back on the show, then we talk about what you guys just hit and it's going to be [ __ ] even crazier, you know?

So,

Hopefully,

Yeah, [laughter]

Day by day. Um, but yeah, great show, guys. We got hot seat questions before we let you guys go. Um, I'll go first and then Alio's gonna take you for a ride. So, hope you guys are ready. Okay, guys, shout one of the chats. Let's get the lights up. Hot tei question time of the episode. I'll go first. Uh, you guys got to answer at the same time and you can't look at each other for help. It's

Oh, no.

It's just like you look at us and you just answer and it has to be at the same time. Do your best to say at the same time, but you can't influence each other. It's it's your guys' your your thing. Okay. All right, guys. It's been a while since we had a couple hot seat question uh segment and it's going down right now. Brett and Mary, you ready?

Yeah.

All right. Frozen live. Five.

Five.

A cut or no cut?

Cut.

On what day?

After two have pipped.

Yeah. After two have pipped.

Green tree pythons or emerald tree boas?

Green tree.

I don't know. I don't know enough about either one of them. Sorry.

Just pick Rant. Just Just out of a hat.

Amazon. Free both.

That's not the option. HEY,

Big ass teeth or small teeth?

Small teeth. [laughter]

Pythons. All right. Um, first thing you would feed a baby ball python?

Least favorite incomplete dominant.

Pastel. Nice. Spicy. What you got, Grant? Least favorite right now. I'd have to probably go like champagne.

Whoa. Okay. I mean, champagne. Forgot about that one.

Ain't wrong. [laughter]

Um, yay. Yay. Imports or boo imports?

Yay. Yeah.

Favorite colubrate species?

They're king.

Yeah, they're king. To spray or mist a ball python or to never spray and miss a ball python?

Mist.

Nice. Yay. Sports or boo sports?

Yay.

Yeah. Yay.

Yay. What would be your guys's favorite sport?

Mine was baseball.

Yeah, baseball. We used to watch the Oakland A's a lot.

Oakland A's. Oh, damn. No more No more Oakland stadium, I don't think. Right. I went to I went to one of the last Oakland Raider games, too, before they uh stopped. Anyways, all right. Uh, steak or fish?

Steak.

Wow, dude. I love Mary's energy on that one. I love Mary. Mary, what's your or guys, what's your favorite cut of steak?

Ribby.

Yeah, ribeye.

Uh, Van Halen or Sammy Hagar?

Halen.

Thank you. West Coast rap or East Coast rap?

West Coast.

Yeah, West Coast. Favorite West Coast rapper or rap group of all time?

Yeah. Uh, I have to go Snoop Dog.

Yeah.

Snoop.

Yep.

All right, cool. Little little word association. I just need the first thing to come to mind. Ready? Milk.

Cookies.

Cookies. Yeah.

Substrate.

FedEx shipping.

Yay. Number one double recessive in the ball python game.

Double recessive. Uh, clown.

Yeah, [laughter] I like that. I was

I was gonna say lavender albino. Uh, uh.

Wow. Jesus.

Uh, Morph Market.

Yay.

Uh, Instagram trolls.

All right. Last but not least, and then get ready because it's a time after this. Let's see to come to mind. You cannot cheat. I don't care whose feelings you are. You cannot cheat. Coolest reptile network in the world.

Talk.

Paint the world.

I have to say.

All right, guys.

We do sponsor. We sponsor the Whiskey Bomb Network. So, I have to include that. I'm sorry.

That's all good. No, no, that's all. Hey, all love over here. No, no worries.

All right. So, I'm going to give you six recessives, and you're going to give me the weakest link of the six, and then I'm going to ask you another question right after.

All right.

Paint, clown, exanthic, lavender, albino, Pi, and genetic strike. Give me the weakest link.

Genetic Strike.

Yeah.

Okay. Now, I need you to pick three that you're going to work of the six. And that's all you could work. Paint, clown, exanthic, lavender, albino, pi, and genic stripe. Give me three. You gotta keep three.

Paint.

Paint, clown.

Probably lavender albino.

Yeah.

Man, you love your labs, brother. [laughter]

They're loyal, bro. They're loyal to their jeans.

Hey, loyalty got them where they at with that paint. So,

Exactly.

All right. I'm gonna give you uh our incompletes now. Okay. Spot Nose, Bongo, Acid Slash, Confusion, Blitz, Fire, and Catico. Pick three.

Spots, Fire.

Bongo.

Yep.

All right. Now, I'm gonna make it interesting. Pick one of those.

Spot.

All right. You're You're living up to to You're super super loyal. All right. Um, yellow belly dreamsicle or orange dream leopard clown pipe.

The first one.

Say that again.

Yellow belly dreamsicle or orange dream leopard clown pipe.

Oh yeah, the dreamicle for sure.

Yeah.

All right. DG hypo or true ghost?

True ghost. How about you, Grant?

Um, I'm gonna have to go True Ghost because that's the only one that I remember seeing in person. Blues and they're all nice.

All right. Now, I'mma go with your bread and butter. Okay. Muay yellow belly paint, black pastel vanilla paint, or hurricane paint or blitz paint? Give me Give me one of those that that you have to have. Blitz Paint. [snorts]

Blitz Paint. Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's all I got. Um, I I really enjoyed this episode, guys.

I did too, man. I really did. It was a good episode. Um, really because, you know, [clears throat] guys, I it's hard to really kind of find out who everyone is out there, but I like finding the ones who've been around this game for a while because it's um, it's inspiring. It really is. Especially when you, you know, you you feel like, oh, you know, is ball pythons going to be something that's does it have longevity in it? Of course it does. It's always had longevity in it. We're staring right at it. So, really good episode, guys. Um, anything you guys want to close off with? Any anything you guys like to say? Any closing statements?

Uh, thanks for having us on. I really appreciate it. And, uh, stick with your projects that you like. Don't give up on them.

Dude. Respect. I mean, that's advice right there. That will take you long in this game if you take that advice. Go ahead, Alio.

Yeah, going off of what MJ said. Yeah, this game is incredible. It's going to be here forever. And guess what? We're going to be old farts.

We're gonna be old [ __ ] farts still producing amazing stuff. Okay.

Hell yeah.

I won't be old. I don't know what this guy's talking about. I'm [laughter]

Mentally I'm in my 20s, so we're gonna just stay there.

No, but I mean down the road.

I KNOW. I KNOW. I KNOW, DUDE. LET'S NOT LET'S NOT FATHER TIME THIS episode right now. Okay. [laughter]

I hate being 40 now. Like because when people talk about time, I'm like, dude, I don't want to hear about that right now. It's

Just wait till you get closer to 50.

Oh [ __ ] All right. Listen. Um, where can people where can people follow you if people wanted to reach out to you for anything? Where can people hit you up at?

Uh, Instagram, Facebook, Morph Market.

I'm going to put all those links in description below. Guys, if you're not following this couple, please, you need to right now. Paint the world. It's a wrap. Give it up for Grant and Mary, ladies and gentlemen. [applause]

Nice to meet you guys.

Have a good night. I can't wait to have you guys back on someday. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Take care. Good episode.

Uh, yeah, man. They uh

Shout to P. Shout out to P.

They had me they had me going down memory lane, brother.

Yeah, man. Gotta love it. Um, because you know that's round around the same era as you, right? 2008. That's that's right right there. Neck and neck with you.

100%. Yeah. Love it, bro. I love uh love talking to people that had the pretty much the same experiences as as myself. It's great.

Now, now I can't help but to start thinking how much I'm about to get on Limey's bumper. How we need him on the show. It has to happen.

I've been I've been all over him, bro.

I know. We got to make it happen. Mary and Gra, if you're hearing this, help this. Help help us get Limey.

I don't know what he looks like still. I still don't know what he looks like. Like I gota

Yeah, me neither. [laughter]

Mystery of that guy, man. Uh, but again, like shout shout out to the shout out to the Limeies, the Ernestos, uh, the Jake, like the the ones who've been around working this [ __ ] that are just choosing to be low-key. I I respect that. I I really do, man. My hats off to you because guess what? Those are all dying breeds right there. Mark Bailey's, all that [ __ ] That's that's like, dude, WE'RE NOT GONNA SEE many of those. We don't see those anymore. That's it.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And what's crazy, too?

Go ahead. Next week we got, you know, you know, the other the other side of the world, right?

Oh, yes, dude. I remember.

Yes.

Yeah. All right. I don't want to give them too much, but yeah, we

That's the thing. It's gonna be cool. That's all I'm gonna say.

All right. I'm just gonna say the demographic of the country. We're going to Asia. Okay. That's all I got to say. We won't we physically we're not going. We will someday, but we're tapping into the Asian market next Monday night.

Finally. You guys are in for a Yeah. So, uh, appreciate you, Big E, guys. Builder Rena Reptiles, go subscribe to his Instagram. And also, man, if you really want to level your ball python game and knowledge, go hit up his Patreon. Builder Reptiles on Patreon. But give it up. It's a wrap for my big broken.

Good night, guys. It's time [laughter] for you.

Thank you, man. Have a good night. Appreciate you so much. Great episode, guys. Thank you so much for watching. All you guys in the chats, you guys are awesome. U, before you guys leave, hit that like button. All right? Especially if you're trying to paint the world. If you thought this was an inspiring episode for the paint game, hit that like button for Grant and Mary. And uh, yeah, man, don't forget, if you're looking for exclusive content, you want to get more out of what you see, uh, you want to tap into my projects that I have going on over here with the condos and the emeralds and even some cool ball python stuff, then come join the Trap Talk Patreon family. Click the very first link in description below, connect to the Discord, and there's an awesome Instagram group chat. 24/7 popping trappers from all over the world. Some of the best keepers part of the Patreon. So again, don't forget, check out all these episodes on all major audio platforms. Buzz Sprout, Apple Podcast, Google Play, all the major ones. So if you're more on the audio side, go at it. Go Ballistic. Check out all my sponsors. You can find all the links to my sponsors in the description below. So thank you so much for supporting my sponsors. I'll catch you here for On the Tree Tuesday, tomorrow night. And I'm out.

Sorry for the interruption, folks, but a quick word from our sponsors.

Hi, I'm Devin.

I'm Terza. And we are Prague Motors. We are based in Czech Republic, a small country in the middle of Europe.

We really love animals that revolve around multi-recessive projects and one of our very favorites is Hypo. We're really looking forward to clutches that are coming this season. And some of those are Hypo Clown, DG Clown, Hypo DG Clown, and one of our all-time favorites, Hypo Puzzle.

Hope you enjoyed the next episode on Trap Talk, the greatest reptile network in the world. If you guys want to see next level, cutting edge ball python projects, please make sure you head over to their Instagram to follow all their amazing work and head over to their website to see what they could possibly have available by heading over to progorphs.com. Thank you again, Devin and Theresa, for bringing some of the biggest heat worldwide in the ball python game. If you want to be organized, if you want to be cutting edge in the ball python game, then you don't want to miss this. Shout out to today's sponsor and that's Clutch. Number one Ball Python organization app in the game. No better place to start off than by using this app. [music] Clutch is an organization app that helps you organize all your Ball Python projects. It also helps your peers and your fellow community members look at what you possibly have coming for the upcoming Ball Python season, what you have currently available on Morph Market. It's so awesome to be ahead of the game by using organization app like Clutch. Thank you so much the entire Clutch team, amazing team over at Clutch. If I were you, I would head over to Clutch's Instagram account and I would also head over to their website, try it out, see how it works for you. But especially if you're just now coming into this before you build your reptile collection, I would do it organized and I would do it with Clutch. Thank you, Clutch, for being so amazing. Excited to hear what Clutch has to bring in the near future.

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