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The news in France with this figure of 35,000 more millionaires on French territory in 2025 in just one year. Who are these millionaires and why would France suddenly become a millionaire territory? Is this good news? Well, we're talking about enrichment. After all, if 70 million French people became millionaires, no one would complain. We are very far from that, so is it bad news because it would favor inequality. Route El Crief has joined us. Good evening Route. We also have the pleasure of welcoming Rafi Matti again this evening. Good evening David. Good evening Rafi, millionaire. It all depends on the criteria, but yes, objectively. But a millionaire not by inheritance, not by having a fortune built through real estate. Uh no, by working, by taking risks, by starting a business, by creating innovative jobs. You don't need to justify yourself, you know. So no, but what I mean is that this debate is extremely interesting and the way it's framed is also interesting. And I suggest we first discover the facts. Catherine André will also join us. What are we talking about? Here are the essentials with Pierre Barbin. Good evening Pierre. Good evening David. Good evening everyone. So, a shower of new millionaires in France in one year. Yes, the figure is almost dizzying. Last year, nearly 35,000 French people became millionaires. A little over 34,600 to be precise. That means one every 15 minutes. A figure that is increasing year after year. In fact, today there are 2,300,000 millionaires in France. So, who are they? For the most part, they are French people aged 50 or over. Nothing illogical. Generally, the older you get, the richer you become. They are or have been business owners, executives, doctors, bankers. INSEE also informs us, informs us furthermore, that nearly half of these couples have no children. Where do they live now? Unsurprisingly, here too, they mainly live in the Paris region, in the most affluent suburbs and neighborhoods. Neuilly-sur-Seine comes out on top, followed by four arrondissements: the 7th, 8th, 16th, and 6th. We can also mention Le Vésinet or Saint-Cloud in the Hauts-de-Seine. The only exception to this picture, in second place, is Divonne-les-Bains, near Switzerland, where many cross-border workers live with the famous Divonne casino. Alf, it's true that it borders the Swiss border. How does one become a millionaire in France today? Well, broadly speaking, David, there are three ways to become one. Becoming a millionaire, it very often passes through real estate, which has proven to be very lucrative in recent years. The explosion in prices has clearly benefited owners, especially long-term ones. Let's take an apartment in Paris, for example, in the 11th arrondissement, 50 m². The average value today is around €500,000, often even a little more. Well, this price has almost doubled in 20 years; it was on average €275,000 at the time. The owner, without doing anything, has therefore seen their assets increase by at least €220,000 or €230,000. Now, we took the example of Paris, but we could have done the same in other cities. Bordeaux: +70% per square meter in 10 years. Rennes: +60%, notably thanks to the development of the TGV, or Nantes: +50%. But these big cities don't have a monopoly. Thus, the famous Île de Ré has seen the price of its land explode in 20 years. Several reasons explain this. Its rarity, of course, first and foremost, but also the strong demand for second homes, even more so since Covid. In 20 years, the price per square meter has increased by nearly 150%. The second springboard for new millionaires is the stock market and shares. Last year, for example, the CAC 40 increased by +10%. If these new millionaires had invested in certain stocks, we can understand the surge in their assets. Thus, some stocks have literally exploded. A few examples: Société Générale +150%, ArcelorMittal +68%, or Thales +66%. Finally, the third springboard is well-known: inheritance. Yes, we will talk about the figures on inheritance later because it's true that in France, a good part of wealth comes from inheritance. It's not your case, Rafix. We understood that well. Are we a country of millionaires? Are there more or fewer millionaires in France compared to other surrounding countries? Well, unsurprisingly, Luxembourg has the most millionaires, one in 7 inhabitants, followed, as you can see, by Switzerland, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Sweden, which are tied. One in 21 inhabitants is a millionaire. France follows with one French person out of 29, which is more than Germany, Italy, or Spain. But the strongest growth is observed in Lithuania, +8%, which is 921 new millionaires. While their number remains relatively low, it is increasing, notably thanks to the development of real estate and businesses. It is also a form of catching up with Western Europe. Yes, catching up indeed, and these are the Baltic countries. These are high-tech countries. There are many tech startups, as they say there. Thank you, Pierre. We wish you to become a millionaire. We also wish everyone, everyone, and you too, Catherine André, good evening and thank you for being with us. Who isn't at this table? I will ask the question directly: is this good news or bad news, these 35,000 new millionaires? Personally, I think it's good news. It's good news because it means at least there is a certain enrichment among some of our fellow citizens. Even if I would add a caveat, we are talking about rent, after all. It's an economy of rent. It's savings, it's inheritance, it's real estate assets. We are not talking about raw wealth creation through businesses. And that's the big difference between our millionaires and American millionaires. American millionaires build their fortunes there, particularly because there is wealth creation, innovation creation, growth. That's the caveat I would add. I just regret that there aren't more millionaires in France because that would mean it reflects a dynamic. It would mean there is growth and innovation in our territory, and therefore there is a trickle-down effect. An illustration of what you're saying. We'll see right away among the fortunes. I don't remember what level of fortune it concerns, but globally, I think I wonder if it's not those who paid ISF before 2017. I'm not sure. We'd have to check what level of assets we're talking about. In 1970, 35% of French wealth was inherited. Today, 60% of French wealth is inherited. It's true that in the United States, I believe it's almost the inverse proportion. There are more and more entrepreneurs like you, Rafix. Do you regret this figure? Yes, you know, I don't want to make anyone feel guilty. Those who are rich because they inherited, I am in favor of entrepreneurial capitalism and transmission. So I have no problem with that. Those who are lucky enough to have real estate assets that increase in value, that's great too. We shouldn't pit them against each other, and above all, we shouldn't be jealous. We often have this problem in France. On the other hand, capitalism and entrepreneurial wealth is something that is too little valued in our country. You know, the average age of CAC 40 companies is 105 years. The average age of NASDAQ companies is 20 years. This means that today we are accumulating millionaires, and that's great, based on a model inherited from the past. And what I would like is to keep this model. I don't want to impoverish anyone, but I would like many more French people to be able to become millionaires through their work, through the risks they take, and through entrepreneurship. And not just entrepreneurs, you know, but also employees. You know, in the United States, take one of the largest global companies, Nvidia. 80% of Nvidia's employees are millionaires because they have a stake in the capital, and the capital has soared with the success of the chips. These are chips, exactly what powers all artificial intelligences. And among the 80% of Nvidia employees who are millionaires, half of them have over $25 million in assets. That's virtual wealth. Virtual wealth. Because what is too often forgotten, and we see it in France every time we debate about the rich, about the wealth tax, etc., we always think it's money in a safe, it's gold bars that are planted. All of that is purely virtual. It's professional wealth that is only valued when the company is sold or when you sell your shares. There, you're talking about entrepreneurs. Exactly. And that's not what we're seeing. But again, I want there to be more rich people in France, but I want there to be more rich entrepreneurs. I want us to create a model where a young person from the suburbs today can say, "I too can become rich through my work." Not to become rich for the sake of being rich, being rich is not an end in itself, but to be able to create wealth, to create wealth to hire, to innovate, and to fulfill myself. Pardon me for asking about your personal case, but when you created your company, did you want to become a millionaire? Was that part of your goal? It was not at all an objective. I created my company at the beginning of the French internet, in 1998, and I saw it as a fantastic playground. I wanted to be a player in this world that was going to change. And it was in that context that I started my company. The first thing I did was to go to my banker and explain my project, and his answer was, "The internet will never work." See, in France, in France, change the banker, obviously. Okay. In France, "it will never work." Alas, too often when it comes to entrepreneurship, when it comes to taking risks, you are too often told no. Whereas if you go to the United States, you launch into a project that is sometimes extravagant, you will find people to push you, you will find people to support you, and I believe that one of the Copernican revolutions we must carry out in our country is this revolution of valuing risk and valuing failure. If we fail, it's not a big deal. There is a real, there is a real difference between the financing of American companies and the financing of European companies. Here, 80% of the economy is financed by banks, which have financial security obligations, if you will. In the United States, it's the market that finances 80%. Companies are not beholden to banks. And so the result is that when you go to your banker, he is cautious. Bankers by nature are cautious. They are not only cautious by nature, but also legally cautious. The market is a kind of giant casino. And there, you take risks. That's what's interesting. And that's why we are trying to create, I'll finish just, David, that's why we are trying to create in Europe what is called the Capital Markets Union, because we have 27 segmented markets, and so it is very difficult, for example, to get a French company financed by German capital. So we want to create a large market. Whereas today, German capital, you know what it finances, David? Americans, Americans, that's it, they finance, and we, our capital finances Americans. That's a tragedy. That's the key to the tragedy. For you, Jean, is this good news or bad news? 35,000 more millionaires in France, who are, let's recall the figures Pierre gave us, 2,350,000 millionaires in France, right? Yes. If people get richer, I think it's good news, but what kind of wealth is it? Well, I see, once again, it's not so much inherited wealth, but the issue of real estate, because it's often very virtual too. Are you going to sell your property, your house that you live in? You sell it, you realize a capital gain of 30%. We mustn't forget, because when they say the price of real estate in the 11th arrondissement has doubled. Okay. Not entirely, because the state will take 30% of the capital gain you've made. Ah, not on the primary residence. Not on the primary residence, on second homes, that's true. Well, on residences you buy, that's true. But nevertheless, we must see that taxes, taxes will take a part of these virtual fortunes. And what you said about assets in the stock market, etc., it's the same thing. It's virtual, once again, for everyone. Listen to François Mitterrand, how much this problem was already present when he used in 1990, so 36 years ago, his famous phrase "One often gets rich while sleeping." Listen, today, you can get rich while sleeping. You just need to own good real estate assets or own good land or good premises. And you just need to look at the time passed. Montage Maxime Fragol, everything. That explains everything. We don't have politicians or a political culture that encourages making money, not making money for money's sake. Again, I think you've explained extremely well what that means. That is, creating value, creating wealth, and that from a young age, we say we want to start our own business or we want to develop, perhaps to hire, but first to succeed personally by creating our own company, for example, or developing on our own. That's absolutely not the French culture, not of the great French schools, the schools from which politicians emerge, like ENA or others, or Polytechnique, etc. That's not what has been taught for generations. Yes, but Routes, in the schools of excellence, but it's not the culture of those who have led us so far. But you all insist on entrepreneurs, money earned by the sweat of your brow, by a good idea. But French resentment towards money undeniably exists, doesn't it stem precisely from the fact that a large part of these fortunes, let's look at the figure again, are either inherited or acquired while sleeping. François Mitterrand isn't entirely wrong when he says that those who had the chance to buy in the 6th arrondissement of Paris or the famous farmers of Île de Ré, it's a bit different, but or in Divonne-les-Bains, well, they got rich, they got rich while sleeping or by inheriting. Sometimes, there are bad real estate investments, you know. Don't think it's all... No, no, it's certain that you showed the best list. Obviously, there are things, well, sometimes in those who make real estate investments, there are also risks, despite everything. But obviously, it's not the same as starting your own business, having a good idea, developing it, and fortunately, I have the impression that there are a bit more young people who have this feeling and who want... That was Emmanuel Macron's speech, remember, that's what you were saying. That is, everything you live in the city, in the suburbs, in the countryside, you will be able to break free from your assigned role and develop and possibly become rich, not as a value, but to create value. But it's true that what these figures show, and indeed today 60% of wealth is inherited, and we're talking about 80% of wealth being inherited in a few years with the great inheritance transfer. What these figures also tell us, and that's why there's also a form of hostility towards the rich, is that work no longer pays today. In the 1970s, you doubled your salary in 16 years. Today, you would need 100 years to double your salary. So, in the long term, you could buy a property, and potentially those who bought property in the 1970s might be among today's millionaires in France. Today, it takes 100 years to double your salary. So, obviously, that creates resentment and a feeling of injustice. Then, there's also this mentality in France. I think that in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, we didn't like the rich either. As soon as we talk about it, we see 35,000 millionaires, and all we want is to tax them. You know, that's how we are in the United States. In the United States, it's completely different. The mentality is not at all like that. And then I'll come back to one last point, and I think Jean Quatre will agree with me. The other difference, why there are many more millionaires and many more super-rich people in the United States? Because they capture 40% of these millionaires and super-rich people, it's because we missed the tech revolution. That is, we completely missed the tech turn in Europe. And that explains this colossal difference in wealth and in the creation of growth and innovation. Yes. So, we always wonder what came first, the chicken or the egg. Is it because we have a jealous mentality that we are not very entrepreneurial and invest little, that we research little in tech, or is it the opposite? Is it because we invest little, research little in tech, that fortunes are largely inherited or acquired while sleeping, as François Mitterrand said? We have great minds, we have mathematicians and researchers, but we don't have the capital needed to take risks, to create. But it's not just that, it's also simply the entire administrative apparatus that hinders the easy creation of a business. Pleasure is one thing, but creating a business... But there you're shifting the debate to business, to Rafix, but Rafix is an exception among French fortunes today, among French millionaires. But even when you try to create a sole proprietorship, for example, when they explain to you that from €34,000, you have to collect VAT on behalf of the state, etc., I mean, most people are stunned, overwhelmed. It's just not possible. The system needs to be simplified. And regarding the pension, at the time, they said we needed to "degrease the mammoth" regarding the National Education system. We need to "degrease the administrative mammoth" because that's one of the things that prevents people from taking risks, from getting rich. Moreover, there's the French tax system, which is also... between URSSAF, corporate tax... Let's ask the questions clearly, and I'll ask you too, Rafix: should we tax entrepreneurs less and tax wealth acquired while sleeping or inherited more? We can doubt it. Yes. And these were recommendations yesterday from the OECD, which was talking about exactly that, about using all levers to try to save money, and that might involve higher taxation of inheritance. But you know that the inheritance tax in France is already quite high, don't you? In reality, many estimate our ability to be exposed to this tax. In reality, modest people would not be exposed at all to this tax, starting from €150,000. There is a detestation of this tax because it symbolizes the fact of levying the work of one's parents. So, any increase in inheritance tax is very unpopular in France. Rafix, take a little from those who get rich while sleeping and take a little less from those who get rich from their work. Isn't France the most taxed country in the world? I would like to come back to what Jean Jean Catremer said, which is extremely important, because the truth is that in France, there is an entrepreneurial spirit. You know that if we include the micro-entrepreneur and self-entrepreneur regimes, France is the country in the world where the most businesses are created, even before the United States. So, if we are the country where the most companies are created and we have so much trouble making them grow, there is a problem in the chain. And in the chain, what is it? It's the regulations, it's the constraints, it's the taxes, it's this Leviathan state that meddles in everything except the essential. And I want to focus on this, I remain extremely optimistic. Today, all over France, in the countryside, in difficult neighborhoods, in cities, you have a multitude of young people who only ask for one thing: to create, to undertake, to launch into the tech field. And they do it. Many of them, alas, fail. And do you know why they fail? Because there is still in our country this dead weight, this aversion to risk that is ours, which is carried quite diffusely by everyone. This morning, I was reading the newspaper La Provence, which, you know how it reports the information we are discussing tonight: 35,000 more ultra-rich people in France. How can we move forward healthily in a debate like this, considering that the 35,000 more millionaires, for whom we've seen from the figures you shared that they are mostly owners of apartments in Paris or elsewhere, how can they be described as ultra-rich? Well, to prepare for the next step, how will we tax them? In a country already the most taxed in the world, all of this is not serious. The more we succeed in creating the conditions for entrepreneurial emancipation in our country, in making our companies grow, let's ask ourselves why we have so few medium-sized companies. We have great international flagships, we have many small companies, but we have three times fewer medium-sized companies than Germany or Italy. So let's ask ourselves the question, and the day we have the answers, we will probably have prepared France for the future. The final word on this, Jean, very briefly, in advance. Very briefly, we need a fiscal balance. Inheritance tax should not be added to labor tax. That's it. No, it was a give and take. It's a give and take. However, the problem in France is that there is never a give and take. That is to say, what I fear is that we will increase inheritance tax, which would seem perfectly healthy and normal to me. There is no right to inheritance. We are not entitled to our parents' assets. I'm sorry. Especially in a very solidarity-based society like France. However, labor should be exempt as much as possible. I am convinced of that.