Episode 5: From Homeless Shelter to $1M in Tech Sales

My mom when she got pregnant and had me, she put me back to a homeless shelter, right? So, you always feel a little bit insecure about that. And I think that it it kind of drives you, put a a chip on your shoulder.

The 2 years 3 years that we worked together, right? During that time, you start to understand what it takes to actually close a a strategic deal, right? It There is a a rhythm to it. There's [music] a There's a recipe. Learn how to set up these executive meetings. Learn how to understand pain, implicate pain, put metrics to pain, do all of these things. [music] And so, that was a big unlock for me.

Uh right before we started working together, I had a sit-down with my chief revenue officer. He basically was telling me like, "I don't know sales is for you. You You're going to do something, but I don't know if it's this." That I still carry that with me. It's my will versus your will. Is his frame going to be the frame that wins or is it going to be my frame? Because I don't believe that, and I'm not going to allow you to dictate to me about what I can do. Look, you may have more experience than me. You might uh know something I don't know, but I can assure you. I can assure you that if I apply myself, I will be better than you. And so, going into the program, it wasn't a matter of like, "I'll try this and I'll see how this this goes." It's like, "I'm going to take everything. I'm going to push put my entire being behind it." And if you're able to do that, it's very seldom that you'll fail.

Share how you went from 200,000 a year to 500. That That's a quantum leap. What changed internally that allowed you to transform your results in such [music] an order of magnitude?

Welcome to Untap Your Sales Potential podcast, and today I am here with Mik Laval, who was in our program for several years, and has been absolutely crushing it. And we also have a live audience that's going to ask questions today. So, I'm excited to uh combine the fireside chat with the podcast for the first time in a live episode.

Um Mik Laval is one of the most disciplined and driven people I've ever met and coached. Um when he joined Untapp, um he was doing well, but he had never made more than 200,000, and he went all in on the program. He showed up every week. He went to the Masterminds, and um in his first year applying the mindset, habits, and skills that we teach, um along with an all-in mentality, he more than doubled his income to 500k. But, Mikael is a big proponent of personal development. He said, "I'm not done yet. I'm going to I'm going to coach again for another year." He switched over to Mike Biasconi, um and stayed in the program for another year, and was just relentless with learning how to do executive selling, and then he um made a million dollars the following year. So, um two and a half x his income, then doubled it after that.

Uh but, what makes his his story isn't the fact that he just had such success so fast. It's really where he came from. Uh Mikael grew up in an environment that's surrounded by hardship. He fought his way out of a tough childhood through discipline, personal growth, and an obsession with mastering his craft with whatever he was doing. He started out working as a janitor, then became a personal trainer, then went and moved to sales, and became an elite enterprise seller very quickly, including when he worked at a startup with not a very well-known brand, he closed new logos from scratch, like Snowflake, Microsoft, and Lyft, all within a year. His story's proof of what's possible when someone goes all in on becoming the best version of themselves.

Great to see you, brother. Welcome to the podcast.

Hey, man. I'm happy to be here. Looking forward to it, the conversation.

Well, I appreciate you paying it forward and and sharing. So, why don't we start at the beginning? Um you mentioned you had a pretty challenging environment growing up and you had to help raise your younger brothers. Uh why don't you tell everyone what it was like growing up for you and how did that environment you were in shape the person and the competitor that you became?

Hey, man. Um yeah, you know, it was uh I think a good word that that will like a a that captures it really is it's it was a broken environment, right? Um you know, I grew up in the '90s in Springfield, Massachusetts and it was just it was just a very violent uh place. It was a lot of uh hopelessness. And you know, I had a single mom who was you know, for one reason or another kind of checked out. So, me and my brothers had to do a lot um to just kind of you know, keep our heads above water and um I think the way that it shaped me is you know, I I would look at the people around me and you know, this goes for my brothers and and cousins and stuff like that. And like they would take because you're in an a violent environment, typically you you do what you see, right? I think for me, I kind of saw the way that that turned out in most cases. And and I didn't want that. And so, I thought, well, I could take the anger and the frustration and I could turn it inward. And what I mean by that is is you know, I take my um like frustration out and turn and turn that that that energy, that anger into discipline, right? Like I channel it productively. Um and I think that feeling less than, right? You know, you go to the store, you pay with food stamps or um you know, like my mom when she when she got pregnant and had me, she took me back to a homeless shelter, right? So, you always feel a little bit uh insecure about that. And I think that it it kind of drives you, puts a a chip on your shoulder. Um Um, one that maybe wouldn't come from someone who comes from privilege or maybe even a middle class upbringing.

Well, definitely not. I mean, just for context, when when you say you had to help raise your brothers, what what did that look like? And when when did it start? What age did you really take on that responsibility?

So, it was around like 9 or 10, the my oldest brother moved out and so I have four I have four brothers, but uh, you know, my two little brothers, my my uh, you know, youngest brother wasn't born born at that time. So, when my oldest oldest brother left, my mom had just got out of the divorce and she was doing the single mom thing cuz she hadn't worked before. So, she had to go get her GED and you know, try to figure all that out. And so I had to try to hold down the house and you know, I've been to, you know, student teacher conferences for my brothers, right? Cuz they were acting out. I've had to try to teach them lessons, which I was not really equipped to to be trying to do. Um, and trying to like instill some level of discipline in them.

Did you have that innately in you or do you think you made a choice that you were going to be different? Cuz I think a lot of people might be resentful or bitter if they're having to play father at 10 years old, but you it seems like you, you know, at the time, did you see that as as an opportunity to build discipline or were you pissed about it cuz you couldn't just be a kid?

Well, I want to firstly be clear like I'm I am bitter. Like I am frustrated, right? Like I said, like I I don't make it no bones about that. The intensity that people sensed about me, that's where that comes from. Um, but I think, so me and my brothers have different fathers and my um, my father, I met him a little bit later in life, but my dad was like a um, you know, he was a a top high school player, division one basketball player. He's he that that's the one thing that he did really well. And he was very um you know, he was very very I was I'm his only son. He was very much focused on trying to make sure that I didn't turn out like my other brothers. And so um I would try to carry those principles that I would learned being with him in the summers and try to bring that back to my brothers where I was um you know, I was with for the most part. So that's usually that's where the the kind of the framing originated.

So you were with your mom raising your brothers in this chaotic environment and then you went to go live with your dad in the summers and you saw a different um parenting style.

Yeah, yeah. My dad was a he's it's actually funny now cuz he's softened in his old age, but at the time he was very harsh. Very harsh. He um you know, I was raised with my mom and so he felt like I was soft. And so he was very adamant about trying to um get that out of me from in one way or another. Uh and so you know, he was very big on repetition. He was very big on uh suffering, right? Like you need to he would take me out. He'd be like >> [laughter] >> shh you know, 90° 100° in Georgia and he'd have me run these hills without water and I would be seeing colors and you know, he's cussing at me the whole time, right? Um I would you know, go out and I would play uh maybe not have a a good practice in the summer league and he would just like he would just come down on me constantly about being better, right? And so you know, he used to say to me, "If I if I wake you up out of the bed at 2:00 in the morning, you should be able to make you know, 100 jump shots in a row. That's what I expect, right? Like that was his level of detail and so um that sticks with you. He created a machine. You know, he takes a lot of credit for it, you know, a couple years ago I I had my wedding in Greece. It was beautiful. And he gave his speech and he he definitely loves to tell people that. >> [laughter] >>

It's interesting. As a parent, you know, I I err on the on the opposite side of of you know, not being too hard on my kids and giving them a lot of leeway. And sometimes I wonder if uh, you know, more discipline, more you know, punishment, more more uh challenging, you know, challenging environment might serve them, but I know it has its its pros and its cons, but for you what I'm seeing is it shaped you. It made you hard and and you took that to sport, right? And didn't you kind of apply that for basketball um throughout you know, throughout high school and and afterwards?

Yeah, yeah. So, that was, you know, of course I ended up taking on his dream and my dream was to play professional sports, right? So, like that was like a huge driver. And for me, at that point, that has the That was the only uh everybody I grew up with was either who got out, they they either played sports or they, you know, let's just say uh got money through uh nefarious means. And so, I Like I said, I wasn't I wasn't going to >> dealing. We all know about it. [laughter] We've all We've all been there. I mean, you know, you know, there there's a lot of stuff, you know, that I just wasn't I just felt like I was better than that, right? So, I was like, "Okay, let me let me go to do the sports thing." Um but like the sports lessons is really around like the the lesson that I took away from my uh my my adventures in sports, I'll call it is like in order for you to be the best in the world at something, you need to have some level of natural ability, A, and B, you need to have passion for it. Like your heart has to be in it all the way because it's so competitive that otherwise, like you just won't make it, right? And and and also like life is not fair, right? Like I had a you know, a few injuries and things that just didn't go my way. I felt like I was undersized for my position, right? So there's a lot of things that went went away from me, but the most important was that if you look at someone like Steph Curry or someone like Kobe, one of the things that they were really good or why they're really good is because a lot of them either had great athletic ability or great mentorship and then in a great environment, right? They grew up in a great environment. They had a support They had a support system. This is really important, right? You hear like Serena Williams and and other professional athletes talk about this. I didn't have a support system and I also didn't have any mentorship. I made a lot of very stupid mistakes earlier in my life for the simple fact that I didn't have anybody guiding me, right? And so that's why I ended up doing a lot of the really stupid [ __ ] that I did, right? So I mean that's just That's just how it goes.

Yeah, you didn't have those guardrails protecting you and uh what doesn't kill you make you stronger. So so you you got out, you played basketball, um and then early on in your your work life, you started as as a janitor then as a um, you know, as a fitness trainer or coach. Um curious kind of about that time and ultimately what how it led to sales. How did you go from janitor to to tech sales? What did that happen?

>> That's wild. Yeah, it's not your usual background for for what I what I see here.

Yeah, well, I mean I think the the first thing was like I said, I didn't have any guidance, right? So I did a lot of foolish things, one of which was dropping out of of of college to go and play you know, professionally overseas, right? Which which I did for for a season. And while I was over there, I had an experience once where I was working My work ethic I was always a hard worker. That never changed. But I remember this I was really struggling and one of the kids, you know, on my team, Penny, was what we called him. You know, he was 6'7, you know, he stayed up the whole night drinking before and like came out the next day and scored 40 points. And I just I just was like, okay, he's got something that I'm just not there's something missing here, right? And I can continue to to go this direction, but there's opportunity cost, right? Cuz every year I do this, that's another that's a year I'm not doing the thing that maybe I could put more of myself into or I have a natural knack for. And so, you know, I just I I left, you know, that opportunity and then, you know, moved to Portland. You asked me why, I still don't know. I just wanted to get as far away from home as possible because if I went back home, I kind of knew I would get caught up in what whatever was going on with my brothers and so forth. So, I just tried to go as far west as possible cuz I'm back from I'm from back east. And so, I was like, all right. Well, I moved there out there with my ex-girlfriend at at the time. And so, we broke up and then I was out there just by myself, right? And so, I had no degree, I had no plan, right? I just was kind of like floundering, right? So, you took a bunch of different jobs like a janitor job. And then when I when I was in the I was like, okay, well, I know how to stay in shape. I was like, I'm an athlete. So, I became a personal trainer. Things really started to turn around for me where I got a job at a 24-Hour Fitness and I started selling a lot of personal training packages, like a lot, right? So much so that I was leading the Pacific Northwest in what they called like NBU's, new business units, right? I was a terrible trainer, but I could really get people signed up. And so, um that actually started making me think, okay, well, maybe there's a way I have a way with people. I have a way with with words. So, you know, maybe there's uh something I can do here, right? So, I thought about maybe going into pharmaceuticals, you know, I interviewed at a for doing that. And that just what did didn't really feel right. And I was actually complaining to one of my uh my clients in a cul-de-sac. Uh uh So, this is where my life really just changed, right? Cuz I was kind of going through like a quarter-life crisis. I was like maybe 24 at the time. And I was like, yeah, man, I don't know how I messed up so bad. I feel like I I have a pretty good head on my shoulders. But I was living in this like tiny studio in Portland where like the walls were cracking. It was like I was working 7 days a week cuz I was commuting back and forth to Clackamas in Oregon for anybody who is there from Portland, which was just terrible. Um and I just hated my life. I was very unhappy, right? And so, I was kind of complaining to her and she was like, look, I can't make any promises to you, but my uh my dad is an executive at the startup downtown. I can see if I can get you an interview. And I I'll never forget that. I was like I still keep the emails screenshotted to this day because of how big of a difference I knew if I could get my foot in the door somewhere that I can take care of the rest. And so, um you know, I go in with my H&M suit at the time and um the company was Avanta. They eventually got acquired by by Gartner. Um but essentially, I went in there and that was my first experience meeting uh engaging with power firsthand. So, there was a man who ran that business. His name was Bob Detlef. And Bob Detlef is to this day and I sit 10 ft away from a billionaire, right? Jesse, our CEO, right? Like and to this day, I have and I've worked with a lot of executives. Bob is probably one of the most charismatic like the energy is almost like on a cult level, right? I I see bosses man slap slap his hand on the table and people would sit. Like I'd never seen anything like this, right? Drove a white Ferrari. His house was in Architectural Digest. I mean, he was a baller, larger than life. And I walk in and it's an all-hands. It's like 200 people. And it was me. So uh there's a guy to my left and a guy to my right. And he Bob would do this thing where he would sit in this all-hands and he would call people and he on people and he would ask them about their quota numbers. He would ask them like where their registration was at. He would he you needed to know your business inside and out. And so he calls on me or the guy to my left and he goes, "How are you going to add value to my business?" We were not prepared, by the way. They just threw us out there like this. And the guy stands up, starts waffling. He's like, "Sit down." Calls on me. "How are you going to add value to my business?" And I don't know what I said, but I just remember uh later that day I was sitting at like uh sitting for drinks with one of my friends and a bunch of people I bumped into a bunch of folks from that all-hands and they're like, "Our CEO loved you. He loved you." And so I got ended up getting the job. Um we get acquired acquired maybe a a year later uh by Gartner. Mhm. And then, you know, Simeon, who's the leader of that business, comes in and they they train us up and and the rest is history, right? I became one of the top sellers. Spent I think 5 years there. And then, um you know, Gartner's a great sales organization, but they sell services. Uh and I wanted to sell software because I knew that the very best sales sales people in the world sell software. And that that's my just my view. Um and so I built a relationship with a man by the name of Mickey Mickey Bresman. He was the CEO at Semperis. He's still the CEO. Um and they do like Microsoft Active Direc- Active Directory um like resilience and like rollback software. And Uh, you know, he was one of my my clients at Gartner. And so, when he he at one of our conferences late in my career there, he was like, "Hey, um, when when I, you know, raise some money, I want you to come work for me." You know, people say that type of stuff all the time, but you don't really know. Um, but he raised a series B of like 40 million. I messaged him on LinkedIn. I was like, "Hey Mickey, I don't know if you remember me." He's like, "I remember you." And he introduced me to his VP of sales, and then, you know, had a a good stint at Semperis for like 2 and 1/2 years, and then ServiceNow is really where where me and you met, right? I was there for 3 years, and that's really where I started to come into my own as a seller. Mhm.

How long were you at the company with Mickey before you went to ServiceNow?

About 2 and 1/2, 3 years.

Okay. So, you had been doing like around a couple hundred thousand a year, but that wasn't enough, and I know you've had mentors. What led you, you know, when you got into ServiceNow to say, you know, I want to actually hire a coach or get some mentorship from the program?

Yeah. Well, so, I was a core rep at ServiceNow. And ServiceNow is a a massive enterprise platform, right? Like, there's just hundreds of SKUs. It's The use cases are very complex. The so, you know, the the technology is very complex. And so, if there wasn't I knew I would never understand the technology the best. So, I knew I had to had to survive and thrive on sales execution. And so, that's what I did. Um, I think the the thing that turned it around for me and really where I went all in in terms of investment was like, you know, folks will tell you, and I forget who it was, it was like one of the one of those like YouTube like self-help dudes, right? And he's like, "Look, you can take, uh, you know, let's say $5,000, and you can invest it in the S&P or in crypto or in real estate. Or, you can take that $5,000, and you can invest in your skill set. The return on investment that you get from investing in your skill set is going to be exponentially higher than anything that you're going to get from any of the markets, right? Cuz a good return is like what? 7%? A great return is 12%? The return that I got on the investments that I've made has been orders of magnitude higher, right? So, it's very simple.

Yeah, probably what I don't know if it was Hermosi yet, but [laughter] let's It's It's pretty well documented and common advice that every business guru, you know, will tell you without having a road map, a playbook, and you know, a plan, you're you're trying to figure it out on your own, it's going to take a lot longer. You might still get there, but if you want to accelerate, you know, get get invest in yourself and learn exactly what to do, and that's exactly what you did. So, maybe share um how you went from 200,000 a year, which you'd been doing, you know, for a while, I'm assuming at Gartner and first year at ServiceNow, whatever, to 500. That That's a quantum leap. Um what changed internally that allowed you to transform your results in such a um an order of magnitude?

Well, I mean, it starts off with just like the framework that you always talk about, right? So, you've got your mindset, right? The triangle. You got your mindset, you got your your habits, and then you have your skills, right? So, that's literally like in that order is like the way that I would look at it, because if you have bad habits, but you have skills and you know how to write mindset, you're not going to be successful. If you have the right mindset, but you maybe don't have the best habits and you don't have the best skills, you can still do fairly well, right? So, mindset is where all begins, which is actually kind of funny, because when we first got together, me and you kind of I was kind of pushing back on you about that, right? Like, I never needed people to to motivate me or, you know, believe in yourself. It's like, I don't need you to tell me that, right? Like, I don't need that. That's not what I need. Um but that was a mistake.

>> interrupt for a minute, but like I kept trying to get Mikkel to crack open, to be vulnerable, like tell me his why, tell me purpose, let's figure out and he's like, I just need to know what to do. And it was like, okay, fine, let's jump right to the skills. That was a That was a um cuz I'm you know, very open and wear my emotions on your sleeve. So coaching you it was was different than a lot of people come in AND JUST LIKE, "I need help." You know, you were like you were a man on a mission. So anyway, keep going with where you're going. So you push back and we start with skills and kind of what what happened during that first year and

Yeah, so I mean I think the mindset piece I kind of ignored it to be be honest, right? Like at the beginning. Um because I just thought, okay, I need to know what to do and how to do it. That's like if you can tell me what to do, I'll be fine. Which you know, to a degree was true, right? I mean, I was able to start to, you know, your operating rhythm, right? Every part of your day needs to be blocked off, right? How you schedule your time, managing your sleep, making sure that you're eating right. You you are a business athlete and you need to treat your execution as such. And so making sure that you have all of those details locked down is just going to make you a much better operator, right? So that's like the the the first thing um that I really kind of got down was like, okay, I really need to think through like rest, taking rest, making sure that I have the the the rest pre-built, right? Like okay, I know I'm going to take X many days off here, I'm going to take a week off here, I'm going to make sure that during the day I'm taking breaks, right? Because you're doing deep focused work. And so you need to ensure that that intensity can only be maintained. It's like mental sprints. You can't sprint all day, right? Um so that was the first piece was like the the habits and just getting that that down. And then the skill set piece, I mean the two years um that I was uh you know, two and a half, almost three years that we worked together, right? During that time you start to understand what it takes to actually close a a strategic deal, right? There is a a rhythm to it. There's a There's a recipe. And that recipe requires you to do certain things. And you learn how to do those certain things, right? You know, learn how to set up these executive meetings. You know how learn how to understand pain, implicate pain, put metrics to pain, right? Do all of these things. Um And so that was a big big unlock for me, right? You call it yo-yo, but you know, other folks may call it other things. But ultimately, it's going up high, having the courage to go up high, having the business acumen uh to go up and speak you know, the the language of the business such that you you get you gain credibility with the customer and then being able to go down, be sponsored down, right? To do that deep discovery that we always talk about. Um and actually understand the technical landscape of your customer, understand what the pain is. Um and then come back to that executive on the on the on the back end, right? With the readout. And then, you know, essentially being able to take all of the tactical steps needed along the way in order for you to to actually get to an agreement. So the that's the skill piece. Mhm. The final piece is the mindset.

>> different than what is [laughter] is what most seller what most sellers do, to be clear. And you The thing I I'll give you you know, the most credit for is you applied. Like you tell me what to do and I'll do it and you did. Whereas I teach this stuff and the vast majority of people have trouble implementing it because it does take courage. It does take changing yourself. It does take learning the new skills, but you're like, "I need to know this, I'll do it." You did. And and that's a big part of it. Um but that concept is different than what most people teach and and what most people do. Most most people are transactional selling. They look for opportunities, they work for deals at that mid-director level and then they'll try and go up to an executive, and it might be hit or miss. But, these deals are all much smaller versus going to the top of an organization and speaking the language of an exec, which is what are your, you know, highest-level priorities, goals, and outcomes, and how can we specifically help you achieve those outcomes and address the challenges, which we know you have as a business based on the work we've already done, and then taking that to get sponsorship. That That is a different motion, but that's the motion that you know, all the top sellers, all of them, whether it's in Jamal or Brandon or any of the programs, Challenger, they're all following that motion. And you did a great job with applying very quickly because of who you are, because of your ability to be fearless and just say, "Hey, I'm going to do You didn't question. You didn't have the those inner inner you know, inner hesitation.

So, how did the mindset piece Where Where did the mindset shift for you? Cuz you were willing to do whatever it took. So, what what changed up here during this process?

Yeah, so at one point during my career, right before we we started working together, I was sitting down having dinner. I talked about this earlier in the in the conversation, right? But, it's like violence, right? Like I And I I mean that like mentally in the way I I attack I attack, right? Like that's the way that I operate. You talked We did a enneagram when we first started working together, and then I'm a challenger, >> It's strong eight. You're like a 29. Yeah, you were like me, like like I haven't seen anyone as except myself with that high of a score on it on the eight enneagram. >> Right. So, Right, right, right. So, I you know, when I was I take things very personally. Like I'm a very I when you tell me something or something that you do something to me, like I don't forget that. Like I log that away, and I remember it was right um uh right before we started working together, I had a sat I had sat down with my chief revenue officer, which I love. I love the guy. He's good good guy. But we're sitting down he basically was telling me like I don't know if sales is for you. I don't know if that I mean you have a you're really good, you know, you're you're going to do something, but I don't know if it's this. And so that I think I was coming like I that I I still carry that with me. Like I I tucked that away for later. I think that's good that's good, you know, fuel. And so like I was like um the way you approach things which we'll get into with the mentality piece, but it's like okay. It's my will versus your will. Is his frame going to be the frame that wins or is it going to be my frame? Because I don't believe that. And I'm not going [clears throat] to allow you to dictate to me about what I can do. And so I'm going to sit there and I'm going to go, "Okay. Look, you may have more experience than me. You might uh know something I don't know, but I can assure you I can assure you that if I apply myself, I will be better than you. That's that's how I feel. And so going into the program, it wasn't a matter of like, "I'll try this and I'll see how this this goes." It's like I'm going to take everything and I'm going to push put my entire being behind it. Mhm. Right? And if you're able to do that, it's very seldom that you'll fail.

You were already there though. You were already there. You were all in when you came into the program?

Well, mhm Okay, so >> You know, I thought I was. Okay. Okay, so you know, again, you know, I was intense. I worked hard and you know, I thought I knew >> [snorts] >> you know, what it took, right? Um you know, high ego, whatever. But I will never forget this because this is a pivotal moment in my life, right? And I tell people this anytime they ask me, "Should I invest or should I coach or what should what what should I do?" I'm like, "Look, man. Like I was sitting down um on a call. Mind you, I'm doing well. Like life is good. Like I just took my my my my friends to Mexico. Life is good. Like I was doing well, right? I was sitting down on a call and you had a this guy Chris Dorris come, right? So Chris Dorris just for those of you that don't know, you know, he's the he's a big G, right? Like, you know, coaches seats, you know, C-levels, Olympic athletes, right? He's a big deal. And basically he came on to the to the show and typically I don't go I didn't go to these, right? Like this is the one thing the mindset things. I was just like, man, I don't need somebody to tell me like how to think, right? But I did for whatever reason this particular day I was like, okay, this is this is interesting. Let me he know he cuz he talks to athletes. He's you know, he knows about winning. Um and we're sitting down and we were like I asked him at the end of the Q&A of one of these type of sessions. And I was like, hey, you know, next year I would love to you know, make a million dollars and move to a major city. I was living in that Portland in the time at the time. I would love to, you know, move to a major city and you know, make a million dollars. And he goes, "Mikael, let me tell you something. The champions that I train, they do not set goals. They make decisions." And I don't know it just hit me. Like I it just a light bulb went off in my head and Bob, the guy I told you about before, he used to always say, "Success is a decision. Success is a decision." And I never really got it. Never hit me. You would even talk about all in and what does this all mean? But basically the premise is this, like to boil it down for you. You're sitting around all the time. You are conditioned to entertain failure. You don't You don't know that, but that you have been conditioned to entertain failure, right? Because everybody around you more or less is mediocre. I'm just being I'm just being honest. Like most people are not excellent. That's That's it's called excellence. And so, you have been conditioned to be to settle for average, more or less. When you say this is what's going to happen, that's why it's called resolution, right? It's a New Year's resolution. It's cuz you it's resolved. It's done. Like we're not thinking, we're not talking about this, right? Like this is what's going to happen. I'm going to be the top rep. I'm going to make a million dollars. I'm going to I'm going to, right? Like this is what's going to happen. And nothing else matters. We're not considering anything else. This is it. And when you go at it and you like I said before, you're going at it with such a level of ferocity and intensity. You're attacking it every single day. Right? Like when you go at things with that level of detail, you're the the work that you do is just on another level, right? Like all when that's that's when people say like cross your t's and dot your i's, what they're talking about is an attention to detail, right? I everything I understand this business back to front. I'll walk into a meeting sometimes and people's eyes will light up because they're like, "How do you know that?" It's cuz I'm going to study everything back and forth, right? And so, your brain, especially when you're going into an account, once you set your mind on something like, "Look, I'm going to crack into this account." It's what the one of the things that's really fascinating is that the the universe or like life will start to like open up to you. Like you'll get lucky. You'll start to see things that other people don't see because they don't believe that it's possible. So, your brain will actually start to like identify opportunities that you've never seen before. And so, that's one of the things that I've learned within my accounts. I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay." I know I got to get to this person or I know I need to get this done. Hmm. And you start to just think. And your mind can't go this way. I got Maybe I'll go over. Okay, maybe if I like you'll just continue you the level of creativity that's unlocked with the right mindset is just it's exponential, right? It's transformative.

And why do you think that is?

Well, you know, it's interesting cuz you have like all these self-help books and they always talk about like all this kind of like uh my wife would say like this woo-woo type stuff, right? But it's almost like um you know, they talk about this There's a uh uh a story. I was actually talking to my wife about this the other day. There's a book a story in um Think and Grow Rich, right? Where there's a a little slave girl, right? She's she's literally a slave, right? She goes to the the slave master and she says, "My mom's got to have, you know, 5 cents, you know?" And he's like, you know, get out of here. Like go. And she's like, balls up her fist and she's like, "I have got to have that 5 cents. I have to have it." And he was like, "Oh." And gave it to her. Like, when you show up with that level of intensity, when you let God, the universe, whatever you believe in, that know that like you're devoted, right? Like this is what I will do this I will die, right? That's the posture. In most cases, right? Well, this is like a Benjamin Disraeli quote, right? It's like uh you know, something to the effect of, you know, um staking your existence on something almost guarantees its its its uh realization or something to that degree, right? Like that's the the you know, 50 Cent, right? Like the rich get richer dying trying. Like that's what you're trying to communicate. I think that it's an energy thing. And it it's twofold, right? When you are coming with so much passion and energy because you made the decision this is what's happening, people want to support you with that and come along with the ride. And the second part of it is is the resourcefulness. When you when you're determined, when you made a decision and said, "This is what's going to happen." you don't get stopped at obstacles. You just keep moving to other alternative solutions because you've made that decision where when you're entertaining the possibility of failure and you have an obstacle coming in, you get deflated. You can get knocked down for hours. Is this really worth it? Do I have what it takes, right? But if you're all in and you've made that decision, okay, try something else. Let's move on. So you're you're you're busy executing and not just you know, in your head with entertaining cuz the head will go to what could go wrong. The negative. But when you're when you're executing, right? You're you're actually um you know, you're making things happen. And I think that when you're in that state, and I think it is spiritual, too. You know, it's like the the universe conspires to help those who know what they want and and who are determined to get it. And it's and it's true. Um And so Chris Doros Chris Doros kudos has a has a phrase um He came on. He was at our last mastermind for we spent a couple days with us, which was awesome. But he he uh He says, well, people ask him, how do how do you know if you're all in? How do you know if you're really all in? And he says, if you have to ask that, you're not. You know it. You know it because it's a feeling. It's like I am making this happen. I made a decision. I think it's That's really the mindset piece. It's getting to that all in state.

So so you made a decision at that point, you may go ahead. What were you going to say?

Yeah, no, man. I mean, I agree with that. If you have to ask, then you're not. Because once you know what you once you've done it, once you've mentally gotten yourself to that place, you you won't you won't accept anything less because you've seen the outcome.

Okay, so what switch besides hearing it cuz you know, again, like I said, you anyone hearing your story, your upbringing would say, oh yeah, he seems like he was all in before. But when you made that decision to say I'm going to make a million dollars, I'm going to do this, like what had changed from before? Cuz you thought you were you thought you didn't need the mindset. Just hearing Chris say it's a decision. Like why did you decide I'm making that decision now? What what what changed there to get you to that new level of all in?

I think that I think him hearing him saying it in that way. It was the combination of words. It was the time in my life, whatever it was. Like and the from a tactical level, like what change what changes is like you get so much more from every day because you're you're more present, right? It's like and people can feel it off of you. Like it's it's like I was talking to a colleague yesterday, right? We're here in the office here in SF and like they're just like you're always locked in. It's like it's kind of funny. It's like have you ever seen Finding Nemo, right? The scene where Bruce Bruce the shark smells blood and his eyes go black, right? Like He's in his >> [laughter] >> he's in his AA meeting. It's blood You know, it's just like you know, you get your your level of focus is so much deeper and you don't you don't accept superficiality. Meaning like we all know here on the call that there are certain things that you'll say, ah, my SE's got that or oh, you know, um you know, I I I you know, you're on a demo and you're not paying attention. You know what I mean? Like you're letting the SE do their thing. No. No. No. You're focused the entire time. You're listening and you're leaned in, right? Like you're paying attention. There's no detail that escapes your attention, right? Like there's nothing that I'm going to miss. Right? And because I'm all I'm all of myself is there. It's like my brother. I was telling them this the other day the It was like a few years ago, but I asked him I was like, "Are you living sincerely?" And I thought, you know, I preach at my brothers all the time and it's just like another, you know, thing. I'm like And he it was like like and then like a year or two later we're like at Christmas and we're talking and he's like, "Yeah, man, like you said that to me and it like really hit me, you

"Know?" Cuz everybody knows what that means. Like you know, right? Like everybody here on this call, if you audited your day, if you audited your day, are you really honest? Are you giving 100%? I'm not asking for 110% cuz that doesn't exist. Are you giving 100%? Are you maxed out? Have you given everything?

It's like that Kobe quote. He's like, "You know, hey Kobe, you know, you won five championships, you know, you never caught Michael. How do you feel?" And he was like, "I'm fine. I gave it everything I've got. Yeah. I can't give any more. I gave it all."

>> [laughter] >> Yeah, and I think again, it comes down to, we're going to get into some tactics in a few minutes, but this comes down to knowing what you want. For me, if you don't know what you want and really, really want it, if you're wavering on what you want, yeah, I want to make a million dollars, that sounds great. Yeah, I want to be number one, that sounds great, but you don't really want it, you can't be all in. You have to actually be clear on what you want first and say, "This is the decision. This is what I'm doing. I want to be number one at my company and here's why." And that then unlocks everything conspiring to help you because you have this laser focus on clarity on your goal. And it's, we know how it feels. It feels amazing. I've been there. I'm not there this minute. I'm not there every day, but like when you're in this state of, "This is what I'm doing." When I built Untappd, this is what I want. I want to build this program and I'm going to do whatever it takes. And it's like, you do what you need to do and you don't think about it because it's what you need to do.

So, again, for anyone listening, you got to get clear on what you want and make a decision that that's what you want and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get it. Because what we're going to talk about now is not easy. Mikkel is one of the best in the world at what he does. And we're going to get into it, but if you don't really want it and you're not willing to put in the work, right? The presence and doing the [ __ ] work, which is a huge part of the job, right? I call it [ __ ] work, but it takes a lot in between the sales calls and the opportunities to go and actually, you know, crack into big accounts. Then it's going to evade you because you don't want it bad enough.

So, uh, congrats to you on your success. Let's get into some of, um, some of the tactics. Uh, specifically, you know, we got a lot of people who work at startups or smaller companies that love to say, "Hey, I don't have the big name like Salesforce or ServiceNow." Right? You did really well at ServiceNow and then you left, right? You crushed it and you go to a startup called Sprig because you see the opportunity and you proceed to land all of these new logos: Snowflake, Microsoft, Lyft, at a company nobody's heard of. You become the highest-grossing rep they've had in the company's history and do it from a place of, you know, a startup support model versus ServiceNow. I'm very curious how you go into these enterprise accounts and win against established competitors when most buyers have never even heard of you. How do you get into these large accounts? How do you get to the right level without necessarily the brand or the name? I'd love to hear those, you know, what your approach was at Sprig specifically.

Yeah, so [snorts] I think that, you know, at the end of the day, the mindset plays into the execution of the tactic, right? So, for example, if you're relentless, right? Then you're going to be relentless in your prep. You're going to be relentless in your execution within the meeting because you're going to be so dialed and you're going to understand their business so well that how you show up, and this is both from like a business perspective and a technical perspective. You understand their business so deeply that people on their own team may not even know everything that you know, right? They may not have a part of the picture, but you have the whole picture, right? And so when you're stepping in at a startup, you are the representation. You don't have the logo, so how you speak, how you show up, your acumen, right? How articulate you are, like how crisp your messaging is, like all of those things you can control. And that's where you buy credibility when you don't have any to lean on is through your own execution, your preparation, etc.

So, when you think about the execution of, like, I'll use a concrete example of this. So, an opportunity had arisen at Peloton, who was one of our install accounts. And I knew from doing my research exactly what Peloton is trying to do, right? They're trying to cut costs dramatically so that they can essentially repurpose their business into a subscription software model, right? So, that is no easy feat, right? And so when I went into the meeting with their VP of Data Analytics about their survey infrastructure, I told him that. "Look, I know what you're trying to do. This is what your metrics look like. This is what your business looks like. Here's how we can help." I have a very, very tailored, very crisp point of view on where we can help the business. And then it was backed by metrics. And so he then, the very next thing that he did is he introduced us to the Chief Operating Officer, right? Charles, Charlie, right? So, I don't get that meeting with Charlie, face-to-face meeting in New York, one of the dopest offices, by the way, Peloton. You don't maybe need such a nice office. Um, but, yeah, so we got that meeting and then eventually closed like a pretty transformational deal with them, right? And so, it's showing up and sounding the part and being able to execute.

And a few principles of concrete and like what that looks like is number one, it's speaking their language, right? Listening to their earnings calls. Don't just scrape it, listen. You know, Claude or ChatGPT and ask it to tell you. You need to listen to the call because there are details that are going to be missed if you just simply look at a summary, right? And again, the value, how you show up better than the rep you're going up against, because you always are going up against someone, is knowing details, right? Details that only someone who really listened deeply would know. That's how you show them. That's how that all-in mindset shows up and how that leads to executive access.

How do you get into some of these new logos? So, let's walk me through your process for you get into a new territory, you see some big names like Microsoft and Lyft, but there's no relationship with your company. How do you think about that from the beginning and also how do you identify maybe the people that you're going to go after and actually get in the door with them once you've done the research, the POV? Because that's the thing a lot of people struggle with. I'd say probably the biggest struggle in sales is getting executives to meet with you. And you can't land these giant logos without that. So, walk me through kind of your thought process when you get a new territory and you see your accounts and how you're thinking about it. Maybe use one of those examples if you want. Sure, that'd be great. But that's a big, I think that's a big unlock that you do really, really well is getting, getting the power and and getting in the door with a lot of new logos.

Yeah, so at the end of the day, I think it begins with your environment, right? So, if I am at Semperis, for example, one of the things that I pushed on them heavily was, because it's security, right? So, it's big on the channel and then it's big on in that particular, in startups, I just believe that events are probably the most effective bang for your buck that you're going to be able to actually go ahead and set meetings, right? Um, and I'll give you a concrete example of how this can be leveraged. At the end of the day, it's like that scene from Wall Street where Gordon Gekko, you know, is like, "The most important or most valuable commodity I know of is information, right? It's what do you know?" Little bits of information can go a very long way. So, like for example, um, I was at a, this is during COVID. I was at Semperis. I was listening on a, it was a bunch of a CISO roundtable that we sponsored. Listening to a bunch of CISOs talk. The CISO lets it slip that she has an Active Directory project coming up and she's trying to figure out exactly what she needs to do. I then take that information. I go to their admin for Active Directory or AD. Uh, I think it's called like Entra or something now. Um, and basically I say, "Hey, listen. Like, um, you know, your CISO, she said this. Like, have you guys started considering X, Y, Z, right?" I took details from that conversation and I took it and was able to break into that account and eventually, you know, nine months later, we had a deal. So, that's like, you got to be creative and I think bits of information can be valuable. There's another ways you can do that as well, right? Like if you talk with someone who's in the middle or kind of lower in the organization and they let something slip, that's really valuable and you then bring that up top with a point of view can be really effective.

Um, I would also say like, and you know, when we talk about like the environment, if you're at a large organization, well, then you have like network effects on your side, right? So, for example, if I'm at ServiceNow, there's 20, 25,000 employees, well, the likelihood that my customer either, someone within ServiceNow has either worked at a company that they have worked at at one point, right? Or that, you know, they worked at that company before is fairly high, right? Because you have a lot of people, right? And so, one of the things I used to do is like what they call network math, right? Where I would literally go through and I would say, I would look at my prospect, I'd look through their LinkedIn and see like, "Okay, where have they come from? Okay, they worked at Nike seven years ago. Okay, anybody at ServiceNow work at Nike?" Uh oh, actually turns out our head of accessibility, you know, worked at Nike with their VP of infrastructure. Okay, let me reach out to this person on Teams and see if they could actually make an introduction and they did, right? So, these are like the types of things you can do in a bigger company.

Um, yeah, and then, you know, company, and this is the thing I learned is like, it also depends on like the clout of the company, right? So, like, for example, I work at one of the top AI companies in the world right now, darling of the investors. So, of course, it's a lot easier for me to get introductions from Andreessen or from Index, etc., because we have really deep relationships and they want to see us win, right? So, it's a little bit easier.

What does that look like though? It's easier, but like, what is your process to leverage Andreessen or your investors to get some of these intros in the territory that you're that you're assigned? So, you're trying to see if folks are, um, connected to your investor base. So, you know, you know, like there's certain investors that you connect with on LinkedIn, mutual connections, right? The most straightforward way. They're happy to make introductions because again, you're, you know, you are one of the performing portfolio companies that they have, right? It's self-interest. Um, and then we have like dedicated people who this is what their job is to do is try to find those connections, right? Um, so, I can't, I'm not going to get into details of exactly how we do that because that, you know, that I'm sure there's like things that are private about how we execute that, but it's a very sophisticated operation. I think the point is, without talking names or giving out playbooks, the point is leverage your executives or people at your company to get introduced or your investors, your board to get introduced to people at your potential customers and look for those connections. I think, um, Mike Viscogliosi does this really well. He taught actually a masterclass on this a couple weeks ago. Um, and there's a tool, there's a plug for Centralized that helps map this out. Um, but fundamentally, it's about a warm introduction. So, Michael spends more time, and we're teaching this more and more now, spends more time instead of prospecting and just doing outbound, figure out where the people are that can actually walk you into your target accounts. So, for example, looking at, you mentioned people that worked at the company that you're targeting that now work at your company, right? And showing them who you're going after and seeing if they know any of them. That's one. Vice versa, look at people who came from your company now work at your customer. They worked for you before. So, talking to them, they're warm, they're friendly. Looking at investors, looking at partners, right? Spending the time to map out and figure out who can get you these warm intros is as if not more effective than direct prospecting in an age where a lot of these emails don't get opened and calls don't get answered. But if you get a text from someone you know, I'm certainly taking that meeting, right? I'm certainly going in and talking to the person that my trusted peer recommends talking to.

Is that kind of your main approach to prospecting? Is that how you do it? Or? That's my main approach, right? And I've, look, I mean, don't be afraid of the phone, man. If you have a really sharp point of view and you've spoken with people, you know, think about it. People are not, I get there's a lot of screeners today, and so there is a degree of that, right? But at the end of the day, like sometimes just picking the phone up, especially if you have background information, because we're just talking about net new prospecting. If you have an install account, right? Which is one of the things that tends to get underappreciated, is like if I'm having very detailed conversations about business that I can share and say, "Hey, listen, I was just talking with Beth about X and Y and Z. I'd love to get your perspective, right? On the project and whatever." Like, you can leverage and open up because you should be multi-threading anyway, constantly reaching out to new people one-on-one, trying to have individual conversations that are siphoned off from the group because the fact is, human nature on a group call, people are not going to be as open.

Yeah. >> Right? People are not going to share, they're not going to go into details, they're not going to talk about the pain in the same way. Versus if you reach out to them, "Hey, man, I just want to grab 15 minutes with you one-on-one and get your perspective on that. I know it was a demo with a bunch of people, X, Y, and Z." You can do this live on a demo, right? Like, "Hey, when somebody asks you a question that takes things off the rails, you can be like, 'Hey, let's table that. Let's connect with that. Let's connect off one-on-one about that.'" Right? Like, it's a way to kind of do that. Yeah, makes sense.

Um, we're going to open up for Q&A. I have two more questions for you before then. Uh, one is about the state of SaaS and the state of AI. So, if you look at where the market is doing right now, um, the AI companies are carrying the market or the infrastructure. If you look at companies like Nvidia or Google or just the darlings of Wall Street, they're, you know, a lot of native AI or AI-dependent technologies. And if you look at the stocks of SaaS companies right now, um, there's a massive decline across companies like ServiceNow or Salesforce or Snowflake. And, um, you made the interesting decision to move to a native AI company, Decagon. And I'm just curious, kind of why you did that and where you see AI changing the future of software and SaaS. Um, because I know you're a guy who always is thinking ahead and, you know, wanting to get where the puck's going because it's who you are. So, maybe talk about your decision to shift out of SaaS to an AI company. And for anybody thinking about this, we're talking about companies like OpenAI or Anthropic or Decagon, you know, true AI-first companies versus SaaS companies that have integrated AI or AI bolt-on products.

Yeah, yeah. So, I think the market reaction is more than likely temporary, right? Because if you look at the fundamentals of a lot of these companies, they're very strong. Sales are strong, margins are very strong. And so, a lot of this reaction is very much reactionary and emotional because markets, as well as people, are very emotional. So, everyone's just like, "Yeah, everyone's going to build their own CRM." It's like, anyone who truly understands software like that is asinine to even say, right? Like, no, they're not. And companies are built on these massive platforms for a reason, right? Sure. Um, things will change, but it will not be this abrupt. So, I imagine that this downturn from a stock market perspective is going to be short-lived.

Um, what I would say in terms of like, where things are headed though, right? Like, you think the next 5, 10 years, right? One of the things to notice or to think about is, like, if you look at the Fortune 100, 50 years ago, it looks completely different. Which means that it more than likely in the next 25, 50 years, it's going to look completely different. Nvidia, Google, all of these companies, like they will go the same way that Cisco, you know, and all these other companies that were massive, GE, right? These companies used to be top companies and now they're just middle of the pack. So, in the same way, um, you know, there's going to be new players in the space. And so, you want to think about all the people who got really wealthy and who got really successful working at Google, they did it earlier. They were there in the early days, right? And so, you want to try to figure out what are going to be these kind of companies here in the next 5 to 10 years. And more importantly, what are the indicators of those companies? And so, that's why I moved to San Francisco, because I thought, "Okay, well, I want to be around the very best and brightest in the world, right?" Um, and so, you know, you've got the labs, right? Anthropic, OpenAI, those will be massive, right? Intelligence has a utility and so on. But then you're also going to have this very broad application layer, right? And that is where a lot of the business, a lot of the value is in wealth is going to be accumulated, right? Because a lot of the rest of the things will be commoditized. Models will be commoditized. They're already commoditized to a large degree. There's probably four or five players. It's a massive market, but the margins for that are very thin because compute is very expensive. Um, and then they'll, and that's why you see a lot of like OpenAI and Anthropic getting into the application layer, right? With like Codex and all of these, uh, cloud code, etc., right? So, the application layer is where you're going to see the biggest accumulation of big players. And there's only a handful of these companies precisely because there's only a handful of people good enough, strong enough to actually run those companies, right? And so, um, I wanted to be a part of one of those companies. I believe we have one of the strongest founding teams and definitely the strongest in our space. And so, that's really ultimately where we're seeing things going. And if you stand in a storm, you think money is like getting wet in the rain, right? You got to be on Broadway.

All right, Mikkel. So, my last question for you is you've had immense success. Um, you've accomplished more than most sellers ever will in their career. Um, but you also talk openly about spirituality, purpose, and honoring where you came from. I'd love to know what success means to you now. Now that you've climbed the mountain, now that you've had the million-dollar year, um, what does success mean to you? Having accomplished a lot of your dreams, and who are you becoming through this journey? And what really is your focus now?

Well, um, I appreciate that. Uh, I don't think I've achieved my dreams at all. Like, actually, it's funny because like I talked to my wife about this a lot. Like, don't get me wrong. Like, I'm definitely successful. I know that. That's not lost upon me. But like, my vision is so much greater than what I'm doing right now, right? Like, there are people here in this city changing the world, changing the world. And so, I want to be able to build. I want to be able to do that, right? And so, um, that's my ultimate dream, right? To be a founder and to lead an organization. Not only to lead one, but to be great in that capacity. And there's a reason why that's super important, right? When I think about my people, right? When I think about myself, another Makai out there, right?

>> [snorts] >> He doesn't necessarily, or she doesn't necessarily consider all of the options, right? Because it's a very narrow aperture of what's possible, right? And one of the things that's really important is for young kids to be able to see people that look like them doing things outside of their aperture, right? They used to see athletes and entertainers and etc., but you don't very see very many Black executives in tech, right? Like, you just don't see it. Especially founders, right? You maybe have, you know, Kalen Lee, CEO, like, you know, maybe have one here or there, but there needs to be more, right? And there needs to be enablement around that. Because ultimately, like, I see the kids, you know, a lot of kids that I work with, they're really smart, you know, they're great. But they're not better. They just have, you know, a two-parent household and went to good schools and have good heads on their shoulders. But there are kids out there. There are kids I grew up with naturally with higher intellect than me, but they didn't go to Stanford or Harvard, right? They went to prison, right? Like, so, you know, that's just for me, like, it's about being an example, like a beacon, right? Like, look, this is how you do this. I've done it.

Mhm. I love that, man. So, going into leadership potentially after, that's part of the next level for you and the next level of growth for you. It's not just leading, right? It's important, right? Because I want to make sure that I'm super clear on this because it's like, it is important, right? Like there is, like it is critical to have, to be for me, right? To be a founder, right? Like I want to, I will build a generational software company. Like I will do that. Like, and so in order to do that, right? Like, your standard has to be so high. The level for now, where I go between now and then, right? There may be many different roles I am in before I do that, right? I'm still fairly young. But that is important to build, right? Because there is, the world needs more builders. It, you know, that's what the world needs.

Love it, man. And again, it goes back to the clarity. You know where you're going. You know why you're doing what you're doing, but it's not the end for you. It's that continuous. >> Just getting started. We're just getting started. It's just getting fun. Well, once you prove, I mean, here's an interesting point. I think once you prove to yourself you can achieve at the highest level, that opens up a whole new world of possibility. The confidence in yourself and your ability to execute whatever goals you have becomes unlimited. Unlimited confidence. And at that point, then it's really the choice is, well, where do I want to take this? If I know I can do anything that I put my mind to, what do I want?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, continuous to, you know, to, to. That I ask every day. >> [snorts] >> And the great thing, the great thing about it is that the delta for me is, there's a lot of people I work with, brilliant, right? X McKinsey, X BCG, Stanford, Harvard, like, you name it. They're brilliant. But I would imagine for a lot of them, like the delta for us to get into the same room, like I have to climb a lot higher, right? And so, like my level of confidence, like I know a lot of these people, like a lot of these really, you know, these entrepreneurs and these people, you see them, like they're very, very insecure. Like they don't, they're not as confident as you think. I don't struggle from that malady because >> [laughter] >> I know that there's no way I could have gotten this lucky. Like I had to get it out the mud, right? Like I had to fight for it. So that gives me a level of confidence and like a level of resilience. I just think it makes me different.

I love it, man. And I do think a lot of people that are successful are insecure. I see it a lot because I'm around a lot of successful people. And you'd be surprised, they're the ones often who, who are working so hard and become so addicted to success because they're trying to fill that void they feel inside about themselves and that becomes their identity and they will burn everything around them to keep that level of success because without it, they feel like they're nothing. So, I think having strong values and having clarity on who you are at your core is the compass. It is everything, you know, because then you could succeed, that success from a place of, "This is who I am. I know who I am and I'm not going to compromise my values just to maintain a facade of success." So, with that being said, um, Mikkel, I appreciate you coming on big time today and, um, I want to just open it up to the group where you guys can ask questions from anything you heard today and get Mikkel's advice or feedback. So, the first question I see is from, uh, Diego Fuentes.

Hey guys, thanks for joining. This has been amazing. Um, earlier you mentioned that, you know, you had an opinion and a point of view of going from services to selling software. Today's world is arguably different with all the changes. So, what would your advice be to someone today if they're looking at different career paths between services, SaaS, AI platforms? What's your advice there?

Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately it depends, right? Ultimately it depends. I think that services businesses are going to become a lot more valuable, not less, with AI. That's just my personal perspective. Um, but I think ultimately it becomes, like, what do you want to do with your career? For me, software in my mind is like the be-all and end-all in terms of sales people. That doesn't necessarily mean that that's the case. It just was for me. I mean, and if you can get into the application layer like I was sharing before and you can learn how to sell that effectively because the principles of selling software and selling agents are not diametrically opposed, right? There is a lot of things that do translate. Um, but if you can show early, and there's a lot of things I'm learning just about how AI-native platforms operate, that is going to help me for the rest of my career. So, that would always be my advice, but that's just a personal thing.

Perfect. And I think sales is sales. You learn how to sell strategically, it'll apply to services, it'll apply to AI companies, it'll apply to SaaS. It's really, it's really transferable skills. Uh, Sheena.

Yeah, thank you, Mikkel, for taking the time and being so generous with your time here. Um, I think your story is just amazing and to your point, like the delta that you've made in your life is so incredible and I hope you, I mean, I think you do appreciate that, but we all, like, I appreciate, you know, what you've been able to, you know, where you've been able to get to today. Um, so, my question is more like, I feel like you're an intense person, maybe. Um, I would describe like maybe, yeah. I kind of like that's been my work for the last couple years has been, you know, all the stuff we're doing in training and, you know, really applying the right foundations for our careers, but, um, I think that I have pretty high standards for myself that I sometimes emit onto other people. And so, including like my co-workers and people in my personal life. Um, so my work has been really softening and like slowing down a little bit and balancing that, right? Like giving myself grace, giving others grace. Mhm. And really just trying to find like a little bit more joy in day-to-day, like not being so, you know, like grind, grind energy every day. So, I'm curious for you, like, what are some of those things that you do that really helps you slow down, brings you, you know, gives you joy, like helps you really play this as the long game? Like you have these big ambitions of being a founder, like it's not going to happen overnight, right? So, you kind of still have to live life and try to enjoy it as much as possible. So, I think you get what my question is, but.

>> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, I get what you're saying, right? This is a marathon, it's not a sprint, right? In terms of like where we're trying to go. I think the best way to think about it, right? So, back when I was a janitor, I had a, I was going through a lot. Like I was just lost. I was going through a lot. And I met, I ended up meeting who was my best man in my wedding, my best friend. His name is Sean. And he's, you know, his whole persona is probably like diametrically opposed to mine. Like, he's super gentle and understanding and compassionate and like all of these things that I'm not naturally, right? And so, having him as an influence in my life has been like a huge, has taught me that ultimately the outcome, all right? Like I just set this outcome. Yes, that is the outcome. Yes, I will go after it with my full self. But that's not really the objective. And it's, it's kind of like counterintuitive, right? But ultimately what motivates me is not the outcome. It is the process, right? Like the fact that whenever I lay my head down at the end of the day and I've given all of my effort and I've poured myself into the day, like that gives me deep fulfillment, right? And that fulfillment of getting better every day and learning, like I get excited to go to work the next day because. And there's actually studies on this. It's not really, people are like, "Oh, find your passion." And like, yeah, I mean, that's kind of [ __ ] right? Because at the end of the day, if you learn and you get really good at something, you tend to like it, right? So, that's kind of like how do I do it over the long term?

In terms of like softening or like becoming a little bit more gentle in your approach, that part of your question. You know, I think it's a struggle, to be honest. I'm not, you know, I think the world now is very intellectually fashionable to say, "Be nice." You know what I mean? And whatever. Um, I'm very big on holding the line. Like I don't need to scream at people or I don't need to make them feel bad, but like if you did [ __ ] work, you need to be, you need to know it in one way or the other. Like, this is unacceptable. We have to be better. And but the thing is, you need to guide people to better. You can't just say, "This is bad." It's like, "This is why it's bad. Here's how you can improve it." And if they improve it, you give them great grace. Like, this is great. This is awesome. You're making great progress. I think the other thing as well is like when people know that you care about them truly. Like you care about them. You're not just a means to help them get to your goal. People will actually. I'll try to share it. Um, but there's a basketball coach, not that long ago, but she's like, it would have been the women's NCAA championship. And they're saying like she can do that because she's made so many deposits in that person. Like, "I care about you. I've taught you. I've guided you. I've helped you believe in yourself that when you need to make a withdrawal, you can do it." Yeah. You know how Ian sometimes we talk about like thinking about the customer and being outward? I think it probably applies for internal people too, right? And really having their growth and development in mind as well. Like not to your point with you making it about what you're trying to get done, even if it's for the customer. Um, but yeah, that's, that's great. Thank you.

>> Was that helpful? Yeah. Oh yeah. Appreciate it. >> [snorts] >> I was on mute. Uh, Michelle, you're next. Okay, I have two questions and they're both kind of different. Um, but I was just curious like when you made the leap from like 200k earnings to 500k and then another huge leap from 500k to a million, what did you notice were like when you look back at the year that you had, what did you notice was like fundamentally different than what you were previously doing? Um, and like more on the tactical level, like was it bigger deal sizes, less of them? I heard you talk about some of the strategies of like going to power and having the confidence to do that, but I'm just curious like what some of those years like what happened in those deal cycles that were fundamentally different that changed like your earning potential so drastically in such a short period of time?

I would say it's how they start. And in a word, it's power. I mean, at the end of the day, you can get away with a lot if you have power in your deal, right? Like getting executive access early, having a crisp point of view early, being able to speak the nature of the business early, doing whatever you got to do. Like that's going to change. If you look at my deals year to year, right? From the 200 to 500, 500 to a mill, like there's just more power. Like there was just more people in the deal who could make a decision. And the way that you get to power is through an initiative. It's through, "What is this company trying to accomplish?" And to kind of put this in something that's real tactical that you can actually take with you, human nature is to conserve energy. In other words, people are lazy. They don't want to do things, right? Like they want to be in stasis if they could, right? This is like every living creature. This is not just humans. Organizations, like companies, are the same way. So, the only way that they'll move is if they have either fear or greed. And unfortunately, fear often times is a much stronger motivator than gaining reward. But you ideally want to have both. And more and more often than not, like it needs to be existential, right? Like, "Hey, if we do not do this, we are going to get killed." Like, one way or the other, we have our margins are compressing, right? Our balance sheet is depleted, right? Like, we have to do something. If we don't change our direction, Peloton is a perfect case of this. This is public. If they don't do this change, there will be no Peloton. You all, everybody here won't have a job. So, we have to get this done, right? You'd be astonished at how quickly people can move when their survival is on the line.

Right. Okay, that's helpful. Um, this is like kind of a totally different question. I like really appreciate how you openly talk about and own your intensity. Um, I definitely relate to that. Different chip on my shoulder, but definitely relate to that being like fuel for you. And I'm just on my own journey with this, so it's a selfish question, but I'm just curious if spirituality has played a role at all in your transformation. Um, I didn't hear you mention that at all, and if it has been, if you're comfortable sharing at all, like how that has influenced you through this process.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, so there's a few things, right? So, I think a few years back, um, or, you know, when I was in college, um, and again, my friend Sean is very pivotal because he's a very deeply spiritual person. And like he'd always tell me these things, and I, again, I just kind of like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever." But I, you know, they talk about like in the Bhagavad Gita, right? They talk about Dharma, right? And if you read the story, right? Like Arjuna, basically has to go to war with his family. And but this is what he has to do because this is God's plan for him, right? And so, for me, like the, a lot of people, they move through things and they have no sense of destiny about them. They have no, they're just kind of, it's just a job, you know? Uh, you know, earlier, uh, Sheena asked like, "Hey, you know, like, how do you do this over a long period of time?" It's like the biggest thing is getting in the right car, right? I believe I'm in the right car, meaning I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. There's no other place I'm supposed to be. I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, right? And, you know, the creation, the creator, whatever the process that's happening, you grew out of the earth, right? You grew out, you spun into existence. And so you have a function, otherwise you wouldn't be here, right? Everything has a function. Everything. Even things that you might perceive as being bad have a function, right? There's an entire ecosystem and the ecosystems interrelated, right? And so, like I believe I have a destiny. I believe this is what I was born to do. Like it is, there is it's like, almost like me not doing it is like, remiss of me, right? And so that's like my perspective.

Super interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. I've really enjoyed it. A calling, a deeper calling for your life that you're following with unwavering faith and, yeah, without necessarily seeing where you're going, you know you're being called for something. I think that described it well. Um, we'll take one more, uh, question for, uh, Jake Carlson.

Hey Mikkel. Uh, good to see you again. It's been, I think, two years now. So, Mikkel's the reason I joined Untappd. Straight up. >> So, I knew I wanted to coach with Mike, but I didn't know. I was kind of looking from the outside, like, what is this weird cult thing that Mike seems to be a part of? Um, and I just cold messaged Mikkel like, "Hey man, I heard Mike said you coach for them. Can I just talk to you?" And he took time out of his day when he was crushing and he had a lot on his plate to come have a conversation with me and totally changed the trajectory of my life. So, really appreciate you, man. And now you're pulling other people into this cult thing, so. Yeah, it's really fun. >> [laughter] >> So, yeah, I just wanted to say, appreciate you taking the time and here we are. I'm great. Amen. Amen. Absolutely. Glad to hear it. Thanks.

Cool. All right, well, if there's no other questions, I will bid everyone farewell. Mikkel, thank you for coming on and sharing your story and what works for you. And if people want to get a hold of you or reach out, what's the best way to do so?

Um, yeah, man. I mean, um, I get like a million like requests, so I'll accept if you're, I see you're from Untappd. Um, I won't be able to get to like all the messages like unfortunately because it's just, it's been really, really tough. Um, but I'm thinking of at some point, you know, coming out with like some of my writings or something like that. So, um, you know, I'll, I'll definitely have something tangible to share here shortly.

Well, I think this is more than enough, an hour and a half sharing, you know, everything you do. That's why I wanted to extend it for everyone. And you can find Mikkel on LinkedIn and he may or may not respond, but that just means he's literally laser-focused on doing his job and I respect that too. Um, thank you for being part of the community. Thank you for investing in yourself and I'm rooting for you. I believe in you and I know you'll make it happen because that's who you are. So, um, I'm sure we will be in touch soon and, uh, if I can support you in anything, just let me know.

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate it, y'all. Take care.

All right, everyone. Bye.