Jesse Michels Reveals What Silicon Valley Really Knows About UAPs

Look, if we've had reverse engineering pro, like for example, Ross Coloulthart came out and said the Tic Tac is ours, you know, it's it's human. I I've seen no evidence for that. I have no idea. If that's the case, then yeah, like of course you're going to see, you know, venture capitalists. The dirty little secret of the UFO world or whatever is like everybody does have this sort of autobiographical personal quest that they're on and they've experienced sort of magical things in their own life. He um brought Dave to my house in LA 2 years before he came out or something. You know, he even said like what I was doing was like, you know, uh 4D or 5D hologram porting itself into 4D spacetime. They've treated David Grush like like [ __ ] you know? They've treated uh Jake Barber like like [ __ ] the people who they'll go on this like quest around the UFO thing and and then they're they're like they just come back to like sort of you know God or or Jesus or you know Moses you know whatever whatever it is for them. My dog and I assume a lot of dogs has no idea what a leash is like it just it can't put this idea into its head right that if the leash goes around a pole there is nothing he he can't move you know he's going to be trapped the leash doesn't exist in in his world. That's what I worry about. I think for if you're like in the the you know spooky intel world, it's like just easy to like mind control like whole swaths of people. It's like it's pretty up.

Chris Leo, welcome to Lato Files. I'm thrilled to be joined by Jesse Michaels. He's the insightful host of American Alchemy and he's been pushing the conversation forward on UAPs with some of the most compelling interviews from David Gush's historic whistleblower testimony to Harold Malcram's explosive claims, Jake Barber's crash retrieval stories and revelations from military insiders, including Green Berets. Jesse's work is helping to reshape public understanding of the phenomenon. So today we'll dive into what he's learned, what it might mean, and where this is all heading.

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Thank you so much for being here, Jesse. How are you doing today?

Thanks for having me, Chris. I appreciate you, man. I'm I'm a fan of your show and uh I'm doing doing well and ready to get into it.

Yeah. Thanks so much for connecting. I'm I'm really stoked for this interview. You've spotlighted Silicon Valley's growing interest in UAPs. So, you're well connected. I hear that all the time with figures like Peter Teal. Do you think Silicon Valley is interested in this phenomenon? Is that where comes from?

I think there's an increasing curiosity on the part of Silicon Valley. I don't think they're that interested though. I think that's more of like an internet conspiracy that they are. They're very uh you know Silicon Valley is very like what what can this do for me near term and is any of this investable is their mindset and I think with UAP UFO sort of stuff you know there are people who I'm you know going to interview this woman named Anna Brady Estz who comes from the National Science Foundation and I think she's going to do a private fund around you know uh UAP and that's really cool but I personally haven't seen like I you know that's my background is venture capital and like I still occasionally I still help with like the startups that I've invested in prosaic startups that have nothing to do with UAP obviously you know if there were something that were like extremely compelling that were UAP related that was investable like I I I think it would be on my radar especially given how deep I am on the you know on the media side meeting all these people and stuff and I just I haven't seen much to be totally frank with you.

I see things that are really exciting from a you know fundamental science like can we push humanity forward you know perspective right like can you can you prove out you know the Bfield Brown effect or can you prove out you know um you know some some meta material that like you know is is fabricated on an atomic level which like humans can't do or like you know extended electronamics can you create sort of a sensor for like you know electromagnetic waves that propagate at 1 / r not 1 over r squared like they don't attenuate over spaceime, you know, the same way. There are all these things that are like very exciting, extremely out there frontier, you know, um novel effects, right? The Casemir effect, things like that. Can you keep that stable for a long period of time, but like the delta between that and like a company that's functional is extremely extremely wide, right? Like Neil's Boore didn't found a semiconductor company. he was working on quantum theory. So like from my perspective, you know, it's I think it's easy because you know most of people who are in UFOs, UAPs are like inherently irreverent. They're conspiratorial like I think in sometimes a very healthy way. And so they they view the Silicon Valley thing as like oh they're going to like you know immediately like take over the space and invest and you know whatever. And look, if we've had reverse engineering pro, like for example, Ross Coloulthart came out and said that Tic Tac is ours, you know, it's it's human. I I've seen no evidence for that. I have no idea. If that's the case, then yeah, like of course you're going to see, you know, venture capitalists, you know, um chomping at the bit. Um but but that stuff just feels handwavy to me. I I I haven't I have no reason to believe we have like super workable, you know, ARVs, you know, alien reproduction vehicles or whatever like the So, we'd be basing that off of like three different anecdotes. And the anecdotes actually seem, you know, somewhat compelling in the case of Mark McCandish and Bob Lazar and stuff, but uh I think that, you know, you need you need more than that to to get Silicon Valley interested. So I it's I I find myself kind of um uh uh in between you know um people in UFO space who are like convinced that they're like you know extremely interested in encroaching and then I'll meet with Silicon Valley people and I'll try to get them interested because I think it would be great if we saw more investment in the space more high agency people who like build companies like interested I mean I think that would just be a net good for everybody and like usually I I I get you know um kind of cynicism and like who cares back on the Silicon Valley side.

So yeah, what's the third example? You mentioned Macand and Lazar. What do you think is the third example of possible ARV tech of ARVs?

Um, you have like uh uh Edgar Fuche, you know, um the TR3B, TR3A, you know, spinning Mercury, you know. I think he was actually was he associated with EGNG? I'm not sure, but he Yeah, he came out saying sort of, you know, that those were like alien derived, you know, technology. You have Michael Herrera saying that, you know, in in Indonesia, you know, and his his thing, you know, his testimony obviously dovetales with Jake Barber in many ways, but um you know, in Indonesia, you know, after Operation Katana, his his marine unit was sort of uh detourred, moved to uh Indonesia. They basically uh saw like this vanta black, like blacker than black craft that was hovering over the treetops. It was 300 ft uh in diameter and it was like this octagonal like he calls it an eightgon cuz it wasn't I guess there are some differences between an octagon and an eightgon. It was like this fractalized you know sort of like like it was like an octagon on top then another octagon then another octagon. It was like moving. it was like concaved and he thinks that that might have been human tech but derived from sort of you know exotic alien stuff. So there's stories like that but then you have to ask the question you know would it be smarter advantageous from a tech protection standpoint to like call human tech alien or something and like it probably would. So like the burden of proof on somebody saying that an exotic craft looks, you know, is derived from alien tech is obviously on the the person saying that. Now I have every reason to believe Michael Herrera saw what he saw. I think he's a very honest, credible person. Um I'm I'm increasingly becoming high conviction that Bob L Bazar was at S4 Area 51. Mark McCandish seemed pretty earnest and sincere and had credentials as uh an aerospace illustrator that well transcended just you know his his discussion of the you know Norton Air Force Base sighting from from Brad Sorenson. So, um, yeah, I think there's like you have to slap some probability on the existence of alien reproduction vehicles, but man, I mean, uh, the, you know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence has to apply there, right? Like, you have to have some pretty high threshold for, uh, uh, you know, something that will really take you over the edge.

Yeah, I interviewed Mike Carrera on the channel and he mentioned the the octagon and I was really impressed because then Jake Barber came out and I mean your interview with Jake Barber I thought was amazing and then the community just went nuts because Logan Paul was there for some reason and that that somehow blew it out of the water even though it was amazing testimony but then that's when I think Jake Barber said the the octagon or the uh eightgon Jake Barber called it the eightgon which then weirdly vibed with my career about the octagon shaped craft. That's what I remember.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um no, that that that was fascinating to see their testimonies kind of dovetail. uh and Michael Herrera's the reason I started to build trust in the Jake testimony in some ways was you know meeting him and sussing him out but also uh Mike Herrera's testimony from the disclosure project you know uh Congress that that Steven Greer had had in 2023 that story was always like the weirdest story I I remember that story sort of seared in my memory because I was like what like you went to Indonesia and you saw this bizarre human trafficking thing and this cra, you know, craft above the tree top like and you were apprehended by a human probably former special forces with advanced technology like it just felt if you were writing a script this would be the last story you would write like it was too weird. Um, and then Jake Barber comes out and he starts talking about you know uh psionic assets and I'm I was higher conviction in parasychology before any of the alien stuff. So, like that made so much sense intuitively to me actually. Um, I think for a lot of people, especially in that first Ross shorter edit, I think a lot of people were like, "Wait, you're telling me I have to stomach parasychology and psionic assets?" You know, the fact that you retrieved a crap, like all these things all at once, like this is this is a little too much. I'm drinking from a fire hose. But to me, it like pattern matched more than somebody who would just, you know, just pure nuts and bolts. like you know I was like working on this thing like like any other sort of aircraft. Um so yeah I I found that to be kind of a fas fascinating kind of one two one two punch of things and Herrera when you speak to him you you get a very like uh irreverent like you know kind of like just as you know going to going to tell it like it is vibe. and uh and he's pretty he's pretty kind of iconoclastic and he'll like go at people if he like thinks they're lying and stuff. So, you know, again like you know unless you have experience something yourself, you can't know 100%. Everybody can be sort of tricked. But uh you know I put a lot of weight in both of those testimonies and yeah the Logan Paul thing man it's like it's tough. It's uh it's uh you know he he showed up he like asked a question that I thought was pretty good and then he you know, um, said that, you know, like I I'd love for my daughter to grow up in a post-disclosure world and like, you know, I don't know, you say what you will about him. I'm, you know, know there have been scandals in his life in the past. I think anybody who's grown up with that much fame and attention at that young of an age, I'm sure has had similar experiences and he seems relatively actually well adjusted to me given that. But I'm not here to defend, you know, any any of that sort of stuff. He's just been he's been nothing but cool to me. The the point was like he you know when we met Jake we facetimed him or you know like a you know on a you know pretty secure uh uh platform that that wasn't FaceTime but um uh but it was like a de facto FaceTime if you will and um uh Logan uh was on the call and and Jake uh uh uh moves the camera over and his son is so excited to meet Logan and uh you know apparently uh um Jake was Yeah, there Prime bottles all over, you know, his room or whatever. And so, like that felt like this synchronistic very kind of meant to be thing. And uh so I thought, you know, it was really cool of Logan to Logan's a busy guy. You know, he's like doing a lot of crazy crazy stuff with his life. And it I think he's genuinely into this topic. Like he he took the time to watch my interview with Rogan um which you know, and then comment, you know, like texted me about it afterwards and stuff. So, um I I I have nothing but good things to say about the guy and he took took time out of his day to to do this and uh and and lend, you know, his platform to this whole thing. And it was just absurd how little people cared about the substance and how much people kind of indexed on on Logan. I think people see what they want to see. And you know, you asked the question about Peter Teal up top and that's, you know, I think it's a valid thing for anybody to, you know, inquire into, but I worked at the guy's family office and I invested with him and he doesn't give a [ __ ] about UFOs. like he really like like you know at times he's like you know expressed like kind of an intellectual curiosity maybe in so far as it dovetales with some interesting kind of metaphysical or like biblical themes or things like that things like he's he's exploring more I think at this point in his life um but the like you know reverse engineering you know stuff you know that from that perspect like he just doesn't care um at least in his you know in in my sort of calms with him um So, I don't know. Like I in some on some level, you know, it'd be it'd be cool if he sort of cared more, but you know, most of the um UFO related stuff that, you know, I've I've I've surfaced. Uh like years ago, I've stopped stopped surfacing stuff around that he's passed on and said, you know, I'm just not interested. And all 99% of our conversations are around again prosaic technology companies. That was my job to invest in with him. And you know, uh, then there, you know, it's like occasionally like at the end of our conversations, he's like, "What's going on with the crazy UFO stuff?" or whatever. But that's it. Like it's not I don't know. And then you can look, you can go on my YouTube channel. The first show was with Jake Paul and then the 11th show was with G. I think I'm making these numbers up. Maybe then it was the first eight shows. I don't know. 10 shows, 11 show, whatever. They're all like really low views. Nobody watched them. And then the first show that blew up was with Gary Nolan. And so like not only like does it make sense from an algorithm perspective if you're like trying to make a show work that would be cynical if that were the only motivation but it I felt like it was an expression of my genuine interest uh that made that show work along with the fact that you had a Stanford professor claiming he had UFO parts with isotope ratios that didn't you know pattern match to asteroids or like anything prosaic like so like that was what happened with the show. Of course, you know, you're trying to build an audience and then you're trying to do the thing that's most authentic to you and, you know, I love startup investing, but I I don't think people care about that. I think people really care about like nature of reality, who are we as humans, metaphysics, those sorts of things. So, it organically kind of moved in that direction. And to be quite honest with you, I I kind of want to broaden out again because I'm I'm a little sick of the insularity and kind of, you know, circular reporting and absurd community infighting of UFO world. It's just kind of kind of kind of nuts.

But um Oh, what do you mean? I haven't noticed.

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it's easy to get burned out for sure. Um I feel the same. And since then I because I remember when your videos came out. I may have even watched some of your videos before Gary Nolan. I don't know. Um but I definitely remember American Alchemy and you would you would make like a video every few months and it would just kill it you know. I remember that and I was just like grinding every day and I was like how does he do it? You know like I should just make one video like you did every few months.

Yeah. Well, that it's funny that's been the trajectory is like, you know, initially it was like it was not my full-time thing and I just really enjoyed it and I put a lot of love into it and it was like a side thing. Yeah. And, you know, I loved like just releasing things irregularly but like dropping kind of bombs when they came out. And then more recently, you know, I I don't get like I don't I don't uh uh get paid at all for the venture capital stuff, you know, anymore. So that that was like a deal that that expired or whatever. And uh it's become my like full-time thing. So I like I really uh you know am am working hard to like be be consistent and uh it's great. It's it's a lot of fun. Um and I'm definitely super passionate about it. It's forced me to think about it uh you know it's like a very you know real business with the P&L and that sort of thing. But with that you do also lose at times the you know like oh I would just do it when I was struck by inspiration and that you know that's that's obviously a good place to be if you can if you can sort of do that.

Yeah, I completely know know how you feel completely because it's also you're the problem with doing your passion as a job is then it turns out you're doing your passion as a job and so it it comes out to be the job kind of can ruin the passion or or stamp on it. It's difficult to stay motivated, especially when you get audience capture, you know, cuz you look like Rogan, he can do podcasts on whatever the hell he wants. You know, whatever he's interested in, he can talk about that. People are like, "Oh, that makes sense." But as soon as I make a video that's not about UFOs, man, I get so many negative comments like, "What are you doing?" Uh, no one clicks on it. Yeah, it's amazing audience capture. It's crazy. I did one on like I had Matt Pines on who's like a brilliant like analyst when it comes to the UFO stuff and he was talking because he's he knows a lot about AI and Bitcoin. He brought we talked about Bitcoin and Bitcoin is not like me launching a memecoin. It's like a really interesting intellectually interesting thing and like the all the comments were like now you're shilling crypto and it's like what are you talking about? like it this thing is almost at the market cap of gold and it's like a digital currency that involves like you know really novel cryptographic means it's a mystery as to who the founder is like it's totally adjacent to the UAP thing it's like this novel for you know you know sovereign stateless version of money you know it should it should actually be very in line with somebody who's interested in in UAP and um you know I just got like you know uh creamed in the in the comments just completely like you know uh destroyed and it's like I I'm interested in that stuff like I'm not you know I'm not just your UFO monkey like you know yeah we do have other interests and passions um yeah we're like people and I imagine and I I think long term that's probably the best way to do it is to just go with passions and somehow make it work at least that's what I'm finding is yeah I'm going to do what I'm I'm interested in but if if it's not exciting ing this topic and job is really difficult. You know, it's it's not that easy.

No, you have totally I think um I think you have to follow your pure curiosity and you have to eat the bad views, bad comments when you're like initially starting to broaden out, you probably have to do it somewhat strategically and broaden out in concentric circles. Um, so it's like things that are adjacent to the thing you're covering. Maybe some, you know, um, ancient archaeology that's like slightly alternative or, you know, uh, you know, the remote viewing stuff and consciousness and, you know, um, secret physics or whatever. Um, but I I don't know, man. Yeah, I think you ultimately you just have to follow what you what you care about. I was talking to my my girlfriend last night and I was like, "What if I just put like music playlists up on the channel?" Like, would people be really angry or would they think it's like kind of cool and like disrupting the pattern, you know? Um, it's tough. It's also like you want to do justice to you've broken like these very real, incredible whistleblowers and like I don't want to obviously self-stigmatize or anything, but it's also like I I don't know. It's it's a it's a very tough spot to be in, you know, covering the thing we're covering because you need to you're you're going to be a grifter unless you incrementally, you know, uh unc cover more every single show and you lead to what what's the logical conclusion of that? You have to be at Area 51 like unveiling a saucer in a hanger. Yeah. And if you're not, then you've failed grifter. And so yeah, you're a grifter, right? So it's like like you it's like more stories, more stories. Like what are you talking about? We're talking about like the most like locked down technology like in you know United States government history. Like what you what what do you want to do? What can I do? What do you want? Like so so um you know I think there's a threshold past which you get enough of these whistleblowers saying all the same things. Yeah. You can't explain that away from mass psychosis and you know all sorts of you know it's it's AAM's razor is that there actually is that they're there but yeah it's a it's a tough spot to be in. It's a tough spot for them too. I often feel you know after they do go public they get treated like [ __ ] like people treat they've treated David Grush like like [ __ ] you know they've treated uh Jake Barber like like [ __ ] you know they uh it's it's uh it's it's it's it's bad. Um, and they display a lot of courage for for coming out.

Yeah, go for it. Or I was just curious where you think that comes from. Do you think it's like actual people in the military-industrial complex? You know, they're doing this to discredit them, or do you think it's just uh the people have been so programmed against this or they've been burned so many times in the past? Why do you think people come out with such negative energy against these whistleblowers?

Well, I think it's it's often the people who are deify them that flip and they're like the most against them. So, there's definitely this archetype of person, for example, that like started uh uh avidly following like Lou Alzando and then Lou, you know, put out a couple things that got debunked since or like, you know, said a couple things that weren't right or whatever. And those same people are now like hate Lou. They hate him. Yeah. And I think the like healthy thing to do is like be like, "Yeah, that's like a guy who's like, you know, it's a data point. You take, you know, the stuff with, you know, somewhat of a grain of grain of salt, but like, you know, it's all good. Like if he gets certain things wrong, like it it's okay. And then the things he does say, you never took just fully at face value. Like you don't take don't take anything for for granted or at face value. And then you're not flipping in this weird direction. and you maintain, you know, uh uh uh the ability to look through his stuff in like this kind of even-handed way. And I I find that there's this like archetype of person that like they'll deify these whistleblowers and then they'll they'll flip on the, you know, in the opposite direction. Mhm. Um and then I think on the whistleblower side, I think the thing that they have to look out for is being sort of like softened and like brought back into the fold and like, you know, it's like, oh, you're not getting any love on the, you know, Congress isn't giving you any love. They're not giving you any protection. The executive branch doesn't give a [ __ ] And then, you know, you're getting these like spooky legacy guys like reaching back out being like, you know, thank you for doing what you're doing. Like, there's a place for you on the inside or whatever. I'm sure that happens a lot. Um, and so like if you're them, you're caught between some like weird like old money cult like Huntsville, Alabama. You know that like they swear some weird like you know blood oaths to each other and like you know they're they're into some you know interesting spooky stuff. You're caught between them and the like the the like idiot like civilian Congress. And I I I I don't say that as it's not a joke. Like they're really like a lot of them are really dumb. They're really I wish they weren't. I wait, you know, and it it it always makes me when I speak to like people like, you know, Carl Nell, who I really like, but he's like very adamant about the, you know, UAP disclosure act, like I I think it's really important in so far as, you know, we can get proof that these things are and we we get like a panel that can, you know, maybe maybe start to distribute these things and talk about the implications of distributing, you know, this information in a more systematic way like that. That would definitely be an improvement. So, I'm extremely pro- UAPDA, but um at the same time, I like, you know, I've been to, you know, these hearings a couple of times and I'm like, this is a joke. Like, these people are like, they almost don't even deserve or want like, you know, what they're asking for in some weird way. Um, you know, they just sort of care about getting reelected. Um, so if you're a whistleblower, like you're caught between these like, you know, this like this spooky world that like knows a lot and is like really interesting and, you know, they're treating you kind of nicely and then, you know, these like, you know, these civilian representatives who probably aren't, you know, they don't know their ass from their forehead and like that's that's a really tough spot to be in, right? And then like these people in public who are like, you said a thing and you but you didn't prove it and you didn't, you know, you didn't follow up on it or whatever. not saying more and in your mind you're like, well, I just tried to do this in the right way and push the executive branch in the right direction. I'm not, you know, trying to be Ed Snowden or whatever. Um, so, you know, that's a really tough spot to be in. Um, and then, yeah, constantly being sort of gas lit and, you know, I'm sure people trying to, you know, fish for information constantly and, you know, that's that's that's I I uh I mean, my heart my heart goes out to them.

Yeah, you've really met a lot of these people just firsthand and spent, you know, hours with them in person. Like David Grush, I had one question on the Discord is uh, you know, how did you how did you meet David Grush? How did you get that interview, I guess?

Yeah, I uh was actually diligencing a company um in and and the company had sort of like the guy had left Space Force and started this company and um it was a a company in aerospace and this was in my again my day job like just like investing with with Peter and I was diligencing it and at the end of the diligence period uh I was like dude you were in Space Force like do you uh you must know a thing about UF UFOs and this was at the period where I was like, "Do you think they're real? Like like what's up?" And he goes, "Yeah, I think they're very real." He was like, "Honestly, I'm not like an expert on this stuff, but I have this guy that I've served in the Air Force with like a long time ago, uh, who I've kept in touch with socially, and he knows a lot about this stuff, and he's like looking into it right now, and you should probably meet him. He has like mile."

Oh, that's so awesome. Um, yeah. So, he um brought Dave to my house in LA like I want to say like a year and a half before he came out or two years before he came out or something. And uh yeah, just uh honestly it was a it was a refreshing experience for me because at the time I was like this in my mind I was like this is you know really quacky and crazy but like if it's real you know it's like the most important thing ever. And I had like some decent knowledge on it but I I just I know I don't know. I thought it was kind of a a joke. I thought it I I didn't really know like how to, you know, treat the entire subject. And he just pattern matched to this guy who was like, you know, like if I said a thing that like wasn't, you know, um you know, something that he he, you know, believed in or whatever, like he would he would sort of call me out on it. and he was very first principles and like extremely smart like scientifically like you know he has like a you know cyber background um but is you know yeah he's he's versed in like software but also like understands like astrophysics and and physics you know I think he just has a a bachelor's in physics but like he's smarter than your average physics bachelor's guy and like know really understands like space and the space economy and um worked in all these kind of you know prosaically very important you know um context texts in the government, you know, he handled the presidential daily brief and stuff. Um, so and clearly was I think like a, you know, top performing guy at the National Geospatial Agency like only, you know, all of his colleagues only had good things to say about this guy again in like these conventional roles. So that was a revelation. I was like this is this is crazy like this has this has to add to my conviction. Um, so yeah, that was the that was the story.

Do you think your your background in you know diligencing companies helps you in investigating on the phenomenon?

Yeah, for sure. Because that like Yeah, definitely. you know, it's it's I think you know, I studied history in um college and then partially because of the least amount of credits and I I you know, hated school, but um it was uh also because I had a natural talent for it and like so the two things I think that like help me in this field are like I have like pretty good recall. Like I just remember a lot of [ __ ]

Yeah, your recall is amazing, dude. Yeah, pull stuff out. Facts. I appreciate it. That's the only compliment I'll take.

and I'm bad at a lot of other stuff and but um uh but yeah I do I have good recall and then um uh uh the diligence thing is really important too like the ability to sus out basically like in venture capital you can't be a domain expert in everything. So if you are uh diligencing uh you know a company in a specific area more likely than not you aren't coming from that area and you're you have to take some certain things as priors certain things at face value. Obviously you need to stress test as much as possible. So you can't you cannot assume anything but at a certain point of probability you have to say the riskreward makes sense and I'm going to invest in this company. And so it it basically like the number one skill I think in venture capital outside of you know the follow-up investigation of what the person says and trying to corroborate it is like is the person as the purveyor of information full of [ __ ] Like very few people are doing really first principles analysis on everything being told to them. I think you know people somebody's like lying if they're saying they are like you know it is ultimately a a bet. it's a probabilistic sort of, you know, gamble or whatever. Um, so I think that that that skill really, you know, just the ability to like sus people out and like, you know, tell if if they're lying to you. And then where it's tricky in UFO space is like somebody could have an ulterior motive, but also be telling the truth about the core details of what they experienced. And so like that's like a it's it's kind of like a form of lying, but it's not lying, right? It's not like you're not lying on the surface level details, but like there's a reason you're coming out and maybe you're doing some controlled opposition thing or you're like, you know, uh you're spinning like the the the details that like matter in a way that like throws people off or whatever. Like there are all these different tactics, right, that you can do um where you're like not telling lie a lie on the substance. Like say the iceberg is the substance below the water. You're not telling a lie on any of that. and then the the top like five or 10% you're like spinning in a way that like you know kind of misframes the thing like there are all these things like that that you have to be like extremely hypervigilant and aware of and I'll be the first to say that I've definitely fallen prey to like I I can guarantee you now that I've gotten stuff wrong I've been tricked you I don't think you really can be in this field and not have said that so it's like the best thing to do is just off your pre off yourself and then just to say you The only thing you can guarantee is that you're being like earnest in your readouts of things and assessing things and and sort of move forward.

Yeah, that seems like the most important thing from my limited understanding of venture capital, which I assume is going for startups, is the founder, right? Is is the founder and his team, you know, do they have integrity and can they accomplish the mission? So, it seems like that would be perfect for actually trying to sus out uh any Is this the idea of limited hangouts? I noticed you mentioned that on on Rogan a few times. Is that what you mean really by that?

Yeah. Yeah. And they say a certain amount of stuff in a way that you know could do it could serve a bunch of different purposes. it could like soften the blow if there is an eventual leak cuz there is an eventual leak then somebody else is setting themselves up to be the authority on that thing but you were like no I said that like a year before or whatever and then you sort of like you know so it's sort you could do like controlled opposition with it you can do like recruiting with it where you let out certain surface level details and you know people get initiated you know based on those surface like there's like cicada 3301 or whatever this like you know these like complex like math problems that were like and puzzles online and people think that the CIA and NSA were associated with the puzzles. So if like you had the aptitude to figure out these puzzles which I think required some like math abilities in certain cases like then like you deserve to be part of the agency or something. So like some of the UFO stuff could be you know things like that where it's like uh we're going to give you like a slightly adjacent you know to the truth thing. let's see if you can get to the truth through the adjacent thing and if you can then like we're going to hire you or whatever. Um so I think a lot of that goes on in UFO world. Um and then the other thing that the other way in which it works if you're intel is like you can track the falsities because you can put unique falsities in it and so it's like uh die that you're putting into a pipes and you see where the die goes. So you can track like it's like you can see like who the spies are and the bad actors are. And then the final thing is, you know, you can say people react the wrong way. Um, and the thing was 90% true but 10% false. You can then just retract it and be like, "Oh, but this 10% thing is false." And then so you like completely destroy the field or whatever. It's this crazy thing. It's like a roar shock test. Like you want to try out whether it makes sense to disclose or not. That's what you would do. Um, and then the final um thing that you can do I'm blanking on the final thing. What's the final thing there? There's like there's so many ways in which like it's like an adaptive mode of communication and that like a good example is I just looked into the Aztec crash and like you can Wikipedia and it says Aztec crash hoax. Like it's crazy. And you know, everybody, you know, this this like UFO uh um this guy who claims to have like know 30 years of UFO research and he just DMs me on Twitter and he's like, you know, the Aztec crash is a hoax. And um and he's just so sure and he keeps repeating it. It's like it's a hoax, it's a hoax, it's a hoax. And I'm I'm responding with like I actually think the Bill Steinman book is pretty good and I think that you know um Scott and Suzanne Ramsey has found I found a lot and like you know I go into Silus Newton and all the you know the stuff and like uh man I'm just like not getting any like first principles like responses in the back. So it's so easy I think for if you're like in the the you know spooky intel world it's like just easy to like mind control like whole swats of people. It's like it's pretty [ __ ] up. Um, and like that, you know, that was just one example where yeah, very few people are like looking into things kind of first principles. I mean, you saw it with the pandemic, too, where like I think I wrote I have this in writing like that. I I was I was saying that, you know, the lab leak theory was a thing in in March of 2020. And it was honestly I can't take full credit for it because I was around people who were, you know, smarter than me on some of this stuff. But like you you just think probabilistically, right? you have like a a you know a lab that's studying you know co uh SARS like viruses and then you have this like you know this modification essentially of SARS that like binds to the you know A2 protein you know um with or sorry the A2 receptor with the the spike protein or whatever and then you know you get this outbreak like right there like you know it's obviously that and then they have bad safety marks like it's that you know it's it's obviously that you have markets all around China why is it popping up right next to that, you know, but like very pe people I think can declutter their mind and and do that, you know, that's that's like especially when you're being like the most people are very consensus thinkers, you know, and it's you're you're really like you get caught up in these like kind of, you know, mass hysteria sessions. Um, so like yeah, I think that that takes place even in in in UFO world too.

Yeah. And then I mean didn't it didn't we find out like literally that the it was a lab leak? Isn't that true? I mean it's almost like you can't even like think about it in your head like was it a lab leak? I don't know but I'm pretty sure it was right.

I mean now yes that's a great example because now it's it's literally uh you know even I think the CIA has come out and said like we think that this was a lably there's an uh you know an ecoalth alliance proposal to DARPA uh uh saying you know or I think it was a yeah a proposal to DARPA saying um you know we want to you know build a version of SARS that binds to a human A2 receptors you could find this online you can Google it and then the NAA NIH through Fouchi basically reroutes it to China which is America's greatest adversary. So it's like building some like Yeah. It's like you know you're in World War II and like you're you know building some like you know chemical weapons thing in Japan or or Germany or something like makes no sense. It's absurd. Um so yeah. No, that's all that's all totally factual now. Um, but like my point is you didn't even need you just needed like basic Beijian probability like basic good inference thinking like that like a a 12year-old should be able to do which is you have wet markets all over China and then you have this one lab studying this thing that deals with you know SARS like pandemics or whatever and they're they're testing you know there's a there's a contract with them around you know allowing it to bind to human A2 receptors Like obviously it's that that's it's just and the outbreak occurs you know 7 miles away is like the first case or whatever it's not this [ __ ] penglin [ __ ] and like Alina Chan and Matt Ridley wrote this book called viral and they they went into all the first principal stuff about you know literally if you look at the genetics of you know the the genome of COVID like it was obviously synthetic it was obviously man-made um so you just go you can go on and on and on but all you need is that highle thing I mean John Stewart encapsulated this best in his joke on the Co Bear Report. He goes, "There's a Hershey chocolate outbreak. There's a chocolate outbreak in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I wonder where it is." And he goes, "The outbre, you know, the pandemic was uh cured by science and it was started by science." And you see Cole Barrier, I'm sure, because he's sponsored by Fizer or whatever, you know, starting to like want to cut to commercials prematurely. Um so so um yeah, no I think that's been totally totally vindicated, but it just it's it's the good thinking that they they sort of or the bad thinking rather that mass media, mainstream media sort of arbitrageed against in in you know kind of pushing their narratives. It wasn't anything to do with first principles facts or analysis or whatever. um you know and it's really it's really easy to shame people into thinking you know it's like y people are like you know like like everybody knows that you know it's it's a hoax everybody knows this everybody you know you just repeat it over and over again.

And you know, you know, he's like, UFOs are fake, this, that, you know? And it's like, like, okay, okay, fine. I believe it, you know? But like, very few people actually, like, look into this stuff.

Exactly. I mean, look at advertising, right? I mean, everyone's heard of McDonald's, right? Everyone has heard of Burger King. And yet, they still spend billions and billions of dollars every year, right? There's, you don't need to like, let people know about McDonald's, right? The whole point of it is, is they pay to just keep it going into your, into your brain, to literally program us.

Um, even thinking about the lab leak, I'm like, was that real? Like, yeah, it's been like, I don't know. It seems like programmed. No, it's nuts. And they'll just like, continue to gaslight you. Like, like Fauci will go in front of Congress, change the definition of gain of function research before he goes in his question by Rand Paul, so that he can continue to lie and say, "Not gain of function, not gain of function." It's like, the amount of cynicism at that level around the American population's ability to deduce truth is so high. It's like, it's crazy.

Um, I, I don't know what sort of cognitive dissonance, you know, exists in a person like that. I don't know if he's pure evil. Uh, you know, but it's crazy. I thought it was interesting, too. We mentioned Jake Barber, and I thought it was crazy that Jake Barber was actually at that disclosure briefing you talked about. And he said he was there and he, he watched Mike Carrera's, um, testimony, and that's what actually changed Barber because he was there doing like a red team. So he was going to go and, uh, to investigate to see what was known in the, in the civilian world, if you will.

Yeah. It's really wild. Yeah. He basically was like, "I was work, I was there on behalf of my employer, red teaming, uh, whistleblowers." That was crazy. And, you know, trying to round them up and, you know, basically do counter-intel on them. And then as soon as, you know, um, he heard Herrera's testimony, he was like, "Oh, I feel like he's an honest actor." And, you know, he, you know, sort of, uh, was, uh, uh, kind of converted.

Um, so, yeah, it's a really crazy story. And you, you hear it when you speak to him. And you, when you hear, heard, you know, my, my interview with him, like, just super, like, sophisticated, savvy guy. Like, uh, you know, he even said, like, "What I was doing was like, you know, uh, 4D or 5D hologram porting itself into 4D spacetime or something." Or maybe it was a 4D hologram into, I guess. Yeah, it'd be 5D into 4D.

Um, and so like, it was, uh, yeah, he was like, "I operate, you know," he's like, "I operated in the shadows." And then I would like, you know, Yeah. You know, Dave was like, you know, "We were like, what was your title at the time?" And he goes, "Helicopter pilot." You know, whatever, you know, you know, airplane mechanic. And, and, you know, he was a, um, director of like, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or something. It was like this, you know, multi-hyphenate, like sort of, you know, he was a ghost. He was sort of sheep-dipped.

Um, so, yeah, really, really fascinating sort of, sort of background. And I don't know what's going on, you know, with Skywatcher. I hope, I, I, I'm always of the camp, you know, there's a lot of scarcity dynamics in, um, UFO world. People being like, "I don't want this person to break the thing," or "I don't want," you know, "I, I hope, I hope Skywatcher finds a UFO. I hope Ross Coltart, you know, uncovers, you know, some whistleblower that like, you know, ends the, ends the speculation." Like, I truly hope, um, you know, it just comes out in, in any, in any shape or, or form.

And, uh, I don't know. I don't, I don't know what, what's going on with Skywatcher, but, you know, that would be, that would be a big hope of mine, given my interview with Jake, where he was like, you know, "In six months, we're going to be able to land one of these things." Like, I'd love to see something like that happen. So, yeah, we'll see what.

And what did you think of the psionics? You kind of mentioned that you were primed for that already, but do you think that's, I guess, what's your background investigating in psionics?

Yeah, I never had a background investigating in psionics, but, um, I was always very interested in parapsychology. Like, pre the UFO thing, I was really into this, you know, Rupert Sheldrake, this guy who I've interviewed on my show, around like morphic resonance and like, you know, information theoretic fields that lie outside of, or are orthogonal to, DNA transfer. So, like, people, you know, if like a thousand people do a crossword puzzle and then you do, you know, a thousand people do this other cross, if a thousand people do a crossword puzzle and then you have this crossword puzzle nobody's done, like, people will finish the crossword puzzle that the thousand people have finished a little bit faster. Like, things like that, where like, you'll grow a crystal structure, it takes a long time the first time, and then once it's in this sort of collective memory, it's easier there on out to grow, you know, um, those, that specific crystal structure.

Um, so I was, I was interested in things like that and random event generators, you know, the ability to affect a, a binary computer, super rudimentary binary computer with, you know, sort of a mental interface. I think that's probably the most rudimentary form of parapsychology, where like, if, if you're saying that the brain actually is an active participant in choosing an eigen state and collapsing the wave function into a particular state, then you really have to extrapolate outwards and say that we are rendering reality real-time. And that's like a total paradigm shift.

So, I was, I was very interested in all that stuff pre, uh, UFOs. Um, and in some ways, I think it's upstream of UFOs and like, more fundamental and more interesting. And I think the deeper you get into the topic, the more you come back there. And like, somebody like a Jacques Vallee, obviously studies it on the nuts and bolts level, but clearly understands like the deeper psychological underpinnings of, you know, the whole, the whole thing.

I mean, you, you, the, the, the, the dirty little secret of the UFO world, or whatever, is like, everybody does have this sort of autobiographical personal quest that they're on, and they've experienced sort of magical things in their own life. And so you're talking about people who are bought into like an ontology that are like, is entirely separate from like, people who just go about their day and sort of pay their taxes. And that's even true for somebody like Robert Hastings, who like, you know, it's the most rigorous, best sort of database on UFOs because it's, you know, all these Q-cleared guys talking about nuclear cases. Like, it's hard to argue with that from like, a first principles, you know, perspective. But the, the way you might try to debunk that or whatever, if you're, you know, a hyper-skeptic, is you'd say, "Well, Hastings has had his own experiences or something." And then you get to me, that makes it more interesting, not less interesting.

And you get into the fact that like, maybe reality itself is fractured. And you, that's, that explains sort of Mandela effects. And, um, you have maybe, um, probable futures, probable pasts, uh, you know, that are sort of consensus-based, and then a constricted present. And you're the measurement instrument of that present. And when you are, you know, in a good state, you have almost like state-dependent pasts and state-dependent futures. And your reality is like a, you know, like a punch card or something, where you are, you're like moving across like different pasts and different futures. There'd be no way to disprove that being true. There's no way to disprove it. There's no way to corroborate it, you know, because you'd have to like, it's like the problem of the eye seeing the eye.

But there's a, um, actually a guy named Wilder Penfield, who was a, from I think Montreal, Canada, and he was like, a, you know, this like spooky neuroscientist, cognitive psychologist guy, who I think was involved in some MK Ultra stuff. And he studied mice that like, you know, he basically figured out that like, if you just change some neuronal connections, you can implant false memories in, in mice. And no one would like, like, so if like, if somebody can have like, you know, certain memories or whatever, like, you, you just have, you have no idea like whether, whether that's like some like, you know, consensus version of like, their past that isn't consistent with somebody else's, you know, like, like the Mandela effect itself. It's just, it's extremely interesting. Like, our model of reality is probably way off. It's probably just way, way, way off.

Um, and so that, that would explain some of the UFO stuff possibly, because it's like, um, you'd have like, reality itself would be this sort of consensus collapsing function. Certain people would have the aperture or like, ability to sort of sense these UFOs, other people wouldn't. It's like, you know, having a theological debate. Like, have you ever had a theological debate where like, the per, you rationally convince somebody that God exists? Like, it never, never works, right? No. Like, so the person has to be sort of like, initiated in this weird, you know, it's like, they, they have an experience in their own life or something gets unlocked in them, or, you know, whatever.

So that's the, that's the tough issue with the whole UFO thing, is it's, it's disclosure isn't going to be some like, rational, like, you know, this like equation on a chalkboard or like, you know, high-fidelity, you know, uh, uh, uh, imagery or whatever. Like, none, none of this stuff is, is, is what's going to necessarily move the needle. You have to, it has to hit this like deeper, sort of, um, irrational thing that, you know, everybody has inside of them. This like, this quest for meaning.

Um, and some people express that quest for meaning in this dogmatic atheism, you know. So that's like the ironic thing. But everybody has it. That thing doesn't go away. And everybody has this thing that like makes them feel safe in the world of metaphysics. And it could be that metaphysics doesn't exist, but, you know, and the UFO thing really speaks to that. And that's, that's why I'm convinced, you know, half, half the people that are into it are into it.

Um, so, yeah, so it's like UFOs are just, you know, this one, they're, they're, it's the tip of the, it's the tip of the iceberg, you know, it's the tip of the spear. But there, there's, there's something much deeper going on.

Yeah, I love, uh, Rupert Sheldrake's work. You know, I thought I was so smart or innovative when I first started out in this. And, um, I kind of came to the conclusion that if there was an alternate medium, like an ether, and we could communicate, if you will, telepathically, right? If essentially, if you could prove telepathy is real, then that would prove that there's a medium to communicate with, which would explain a lot of these, the woo effects, if you will, like communicating telepathically with other mediums, with channeling mediums, with other entities.

Um, so I devised this test, you know, I was so proud of myself, where I called it the telephone test. Where basically, you have four people that you're friends with, or you get three or four people together. And then you just, uh, use a random number generator to pick one of those four people, and they, and they, and they call your contestant, if you will, in the other room, right? And, but before they call, you already know the random number generator has chosen the person. The other, the, the contestant tries to guess who's going to call. And I called it the, the telephone game.

Um, and it's actually, it's fun, actually. You do it at parties, right? Because, um, probabilistically, it should be 25%, right? One in four. You should be able to guess if you do enough runs. You have to do 30 runs to make it statistically probable or statistically analyzable, which is difficult, right? That's a lot of runs.

Um, so I did this, and, and consistently found higher than 25%. You know, just kind of anecdotally, not in a, not in a scientific, uh, setting. And thought I was really smart. "Oh, this is amazing." And then I realized Rupert Sheldrake had done this like decades ago. Like, literally, if you go and look at his, uh, YouTube channel, yeah, you'll see these, and they're, it's from like, I don't know, looks like from the '80s, you know, they're in like '80s style clothes, and they do these telephone tests. And he's basically proven it scientifically that you get numbers well above 30%. It's like 35% up to 50% if they even know each other.

Um, yeah, but no one cares, right? It's like, no one cares. Yeah, no one cares. I was like, "This is mind, this is literally mind-blowing. Like, this, I don't see how that doesn't prove telepathy. I just don't get it."

No, I totally. Well, yeah. Yeah. Jessica Utts, in 2016 or '17, was the, uh, president of the American Statistical Association. So, she is extremely well-respected in stats, not in like, just discount any sort of interest in parapsychology. She, in the '90s, was tasked by the CIA with doing a meta-analysis on psychical research involving, you know, Ganzfeld experiments and Stargate and all these different psychic experiments. And she came out being like, "If this were any other field, it would be beyond a shadow of a doubt that these, all of these results are extremely replicable." Like, way more. Like, we talk about psychology like it's this like, you know, you know, really important, like, you know, ironclad, um, you know, field. Psychology is way less replicable than parapsychology. And this has been going on. I mean, you have J.B. Rhine from in the '30s and '40s.

Um, you have, uh, you know, uh, uh, the PEAR Lab, the Princeton Anomalous, you know, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab. Bob Jahn was a plasma physicist. He was the dean of the engineering school at Princeton. And he started PEAR Lab. And he came out being like, "I think all of this stuff is real." Nobody who has engaged in the actual study in a deep way comes out saying that it's fake.

So it's this weird thing where you get this like version of reality that believes in this stuff. And then you go back to, you know, earlier stuff, which is like quantum mechanics. And you realize that a lot of the early godfathers of quantum mechanics flirted with the idea that the mind was part of collapsing the wave function. So, you know, like, um, even Max Planck, who was like, you know, really early in like, you know, developed quanta itself, he was saying, you know, that, uh, uh, the mind creates causality.

Um, and, uh, Schrödinger was, you know, he would say, you know, he was sort of against the, the mind collapsing the wave function. But like, you know, I think he named his dog, his nickname of his dog was like, "Otto," and like, he was super into the Upanishads. And then he wrote a whole, he had a whole, you know, lecture series called "What is Life?" in 1944, that was like about how consciousness is like upstream of biology. And like, you have these aperiodic crystals in the DNA that like, you know, your intention like affects or whatever. Like, it was really trippy. And then you have Wigner and von Neumann, who literally their model, and von Neumann was known as the most, the smartest in his time. He was like this 150 to 200 IQ type that like was a polymath, knew everything about everything. And he was like, "You know, I think the mind has something to do with collapsing the wave function."

So John Wheeler flirted with sort of ideas adjacent to this, along with Tippler. All these like top guys like believed in things like this. Pauli definitely was, you know, maybe a proponent of this at times. And then it just moves into like this, "No, your mind has nothing to do with it." And I'm convinced that that is because we can't turn, uh, parapsychology into math. And it's not perfectly repeatable. So, you can't turn it into math or technology. And because it's not perfectly repeatable and you can't turn it into math or technology, um, it just falls into this like anomaly bucket where, uh, you know, it's like black body radiation or like, like certain observations in the past, like the Casimir effect is now, where no scientist would argue that the Casimir effect, you know, isn't real. Everybody would say it's real. It's an anomaly. It's just a, it's a thing that breaks the current theory. But we don't have a good theory that encapsulates it. And if you get enough anomalies, then you get a, it breaks the dam of the current theory and you get a new theory. And that, that's the whole, you know, Thomas Kuhn's, you know, um, structure of scientific revolutions.

So, I, I'm convinced parapsychology is just a harbinger of the next paradigm. Um, but you can't argue with people with the data. Like, you know, one of my closest mentors and friends helped run the Princeton lab under Bob Jahn. And he worked on the, he's like one of the highest agency people I know. He runs a, a hedge fund that's like a multi-billion dollar hedge fund and like crushes it in that. And, um, he's like, "I would try to talk to the physicists at, you know, in at Princeton or whatever." And he can speak to like conventional physics. He can program computers. He's a genius polymath. And he'd be like, "I try to speak to them and say, 'This is the data.'" And they'd say, "Oh, you have a file drawer issue," or "You have survivorship bias." And he'd be like, "No, we controlled for that. And this is how we controlled for that." And they'd be like, "Uh, well, no, no, you didn't." Like, I don't know what to say. It would break their brain.

So, um, yeah, that's, that's, you, you end up in these sort of like, you know, "I'm not willing to look at the data" debates or whatever with these sort of, you know, mid-level conventional physicists. Like, Neil, Neil deGrasse Tyson wouldn't even condescend himself to like, look at like a data set around this, this stuff.

Um, so, yeah, until we get some big shift on things like that, I don't know if UFOs are like, have to be bucketed in with that, or if they, you know, they're things that are, you know, downstream of parapsychology, which, which end up getting accepted, you know, prior to, uh, UFOs. But it's a really tricky landscape. And it, it makes the, like, it, once you start to like, acknowledge the parapsychological truths behind a lot of this stuff, it's really tough because on, on a first order, you have to like, say like, the UFO phenomena phenomenologically is like, extremely real, which I, you know, obviously I believe it is. And then on a second order, you have to be like, "But you have these like, sort of like, you know, fractured realities thing." And then like, it's like this really hard, you know, and then they're like, "Well, you're crazy. You believe reality is sort of subjective." And you're like, "But I have all this like, decent, you know, evidence to believe it is." And like, you don't have any evidence that it's objective, you know? So, so you end up in these sort of like, you know, like loops, these tautological loops, these arguments that like, are sort of metaphysical in their, you know, implication.

I think everybody anecdotally has had, uh, probably beyond statistically significant anecdotal personal experiences of wanting a thing to happen in their life and it showing up in a bizarrely specific way, uh, or synchronicities that they just can't explain. And, um, you can, you can, you know, you can live in a world where like, that's wrong because of physics, because some dude with a maybe slightly higher IQ and like, you know, wears a vest and like, you know, is in some ivory tower is telling you that that's, that's, you know, that's not true. Or you can choose to like, believe in that. And I, I, I think the, the world in which you believe in that is like a much better reality for your own like, personal outcomes. But like, you know, it's up to, it's up to everybody individually to decide.

Um, but yeah, I think there are all these good arguments, even scientifically, that this stuff is, is very real.

Yeah, I remember Rupert Sheldrake, one of my favorite arguments he made was that your, they did this test that your dog actually knows when you're coming home. And they would do tests where they would like, before the guy gets home, they would call him and have him stop coming home. So like, they tell someone to come, and then the dog would go to the door. And then when they, when they called him and they, they knew the time they called him, and they had eyes on the dog, I don't know, through camera systems, when they turn, told him to go back to work, the dog would then be like, "Okay, he's not coming home." And they would go back. I love that.

Um, no, pets know when their like owners are near, and babies know when their mothers are near. And there's this primordial connection that goes well beyond your like, just sense perceptions, clearly. And I think we all kind of know that on an intuitive level. And I think language and prefrontal cortex style Western intelligence cuts against that. And so the more you can, you know, you know, be in this kind of heady, abstract, intellectual space, the less you're in that like intuitive space. And, uh, it makes sense that in some ways, animals would be more attuned to these things. And I think Sheldrake also talks about how them, you know, they sort of have premonitions around, or like, you know, they sense sort of natural disasters and things. And you also, you, you look at like, you know, videos around Skinwalker Ranch, you have like, a cow freaking out when they detect like a UAP like nearby. And you have people having hitchhiker effects where like their dogs and their pets or whatever, like freaking out more than they are, as if the dogs sense something in a way that like humans can't because we're too, we like over-intellectualize. And like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a cliché, but I think it's true. As one, as you develop one sense, you know, as one sense goes, another gets strengthened, or, or the opposite, you know, you develop one sense, you probably lose another. And I think the people who are deepest on this stuff, whether it's Diane Hennessy Powell with the telepathy tapes or Joseph McMonagle, say that the mind itself is a sense. And that there's some sort of snap intuition that lies outside of the epistemological circuitry of, you know, inductive learning.

And, um, you just get this sort of snap intuition. And, um, I, I, I think there's probably going to be some neuroscientific explanation for this. You know, whether it's, you know, Julian Jaynes, like, you know, he's not super scientific, but, you know, the, the origins of consciousness and the bicameral mind, or, um, you know, you, you have this sort of left-brain, right-brain thing. Ian McGilchrist is another guy that writes about this, you know, and we really have, I think the left-brain, right-brain thing is probably overrated in some ways. Probably not, you know, not a perfect dichotomy, but at the same time, I think we, we really have come to rely on like, like there, there was like an animistic world that, you know, we used to live in. And it's very easy to paint over the past with our modern epistemology and say, "The Greeks didn't actually see these gods or see these spirits or thing. They were like pre-enlightenment. They didn't actually experience angels and demons affecting the material world. That was just before we had these sort of mathematical placeholders in the form of, you know, inertia and gravity and concepts like that." And I think that is the, the epitome of hubris.

You know, I think your attentional patterns probably affect actually what you see on a much more fundamental level. And we're probably constantly drawing from a meme library, if you will, that, uh, superimposes itself onto reality, a reality that's like much deeper than than, you know, we really are. You know, we're seeing this sort of veiled illusion, which is, you know, that's a, that's a theme in like, all religions.

That's a great point because there's this, I grew up atheist essentially until I really got into this topic. Um, I, I was of the metaphysical kind of argument, like you said, there, that that's still a metaphysical argument, is that, you know, there, there is no existence or life, uh, after death, I guess, if you will, or something greater. And then really looking into this topic forced me to confront my own bias where if this is possible, then that, that also has to be possible. And I've kind of hit the realm where I believe anything is possible, although I think there is only one, uh, reality, I guess, if you will. I don't think it's quite that subjective, you know, and that's why I think you can come up, you know, there's an infinite amount of incorrect arguments, I believe, and there's only one really correct argument. You know, that's why I think it's very difficult to find a correct model of the world or of physics, of reality.

Um, but it's much easier to say that one model is incorrect, you know, I think it's, it's very easy to, to debunk something, if you will, than to prove that something actually exists or to, to identify what the phenomenon is. It's much easier to say that there is a phenomenon and I don't know what it is, than there is to say there is a phenomenon and I know exactly what it is.

Yes. Yeah, that's right. It's, it's an extreme, it's whatever is going on has like this crazy whack-a-mole, like, right when you're about to get the evidence, it disappears or something. And it's extremely hard to, to find. And, um, you know, like, and then, and then right when you get demoralized or whatever, it like, you know, some new thing pops up that's actually kind of hopeful.

Yeah. But it's just seems to be like, you know, drags you along, you know, and, um, and that itself feels like kind of, you know, it's like Plato. You're dragged out of the cave and towards the light. Like it feels like this sort of, you know, religious personal quest, you know, it's like, very, it's very interesting. And I, I find it fascinating also when certain UFO researchers get really into like God or Jesus like after, but like after they like know a lot. So like, Jacques Vallée was a, you know, a project manager at Los Alamos. And this guy, Project Unity, did this, you know, interview with him. And he's like, extremely, extremely religious. But he was also part of this advanced theoretical physics working group with Hal Puthoff and like, really deep on the UFO stuff.

Um, you know, a researcher of mine spoke with, um, Eric Henry Wang's daughter, this woman, um, Erica Wang. Eric Henry Wang is this guy who Bill Steinman, who was this UFO researcher, you know, in the '80s and '90s, um, died recently, actually. He like, you know, found that he, it was the one, he was the one guy that like, he wasn't supposed to look into Eric Henry Wang because he was head of special projects at Wright, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in the '50s. And then he moved to Kirtland Air Force Base. And like, he kept getting these sort of reprisals like, "Don't look into this guy." And my, you know, researcher spoke to his daughter. And, you know, she's like, extremely religious. And Scott Crane, you know, um, is another researcher who I think had some interactions with, um, Eric Walker, you know, at Penn State, who's rumored to be sort of Majestic 12, you know, he kicked, uh, uh, he was rumored to at the Kecksburg crash. Uh, he spoke to this guy, Oz Azadell, this, you know, um, British physicist or British Armenian physicist. And, uh, spoke to Steinman and all these people. And, and would say things about like, Majestic 12. He kicked, kicked Green out of his office. He kicked Green out of his office. And was like, when Kit Green was questioning him on UFO programs and was kind of tacitly admitting that like, he was part of this stuff.

Um, Eric Walker and Scott Crane was one of these researchers who interacted with Eric Walker. And Scott Crane then just like converted and became like super religious. And I find that, I find that to be really interesting too. Like, the people who, they'll go on this like quest around the UFO thing and, and then they're, they're like, they just come back to like, sort of, you know, God or, or Jesus, or, you know, Moses, you know, whatever, whatever it is for them, Muhammad.

Um, well, he did, right? Muhammad, I mean, he meditated in a cave and then he met with some, basically met with, you know, John Smith, you know, he basically had a, some sort of interaction with a, with an angel, you know. Yeah. It, it's all Joseph Smith. Telepathic. Sorry. Joseph Smith. Yes. Yeah. Yes, it is. And it's, it's interesting 'cause like, there's, there's, there's always a hierarchy of being. And the, the top is always God. And so like, if you think about it, like, if you do believe that Jacques Vallee, Diana Pasulka, you know, it's angels and demons from the past or whatever, just trying to prove that these things are real would be like, not probably the best use of somebody's life. Like, they are real. Of course, they're real. But like, what should you be most focused on? Probably God. Like, the thing above them, you know? And that I'm always, you know, I'm, yeah, I'm a very sort of, you know, Gnostic person in that I like, I need like evidence and like direct experience and stuff. And so that, that sort of motivated this whole, this whole thing for me.

Um, so God itself is like, you know, this very ineffable thing that's hard to, very, you know, it's hard to approximate. And we don't have, you know, we don't have, you know, evidence for, outside of, you call it the God of the gaps, right? Like, the fact that our world itself just feels like this crazy miracle, you know.

Um, but yeah, it's just, I find that, I find that fascinating. Yeah, it's a, it's a crazy miracle that you have to do. It's also, you have to wake up. And, yeah.

Um, I think, I think it's, I look at like, uh, my dog, you know, and I don't know if you have a dog. Do you have a dog? Curious.

I don't. I, I did have a dog. I don't.

Sorry to hear that. Yeah. Well, anyway, um, yeah. How you see the dogs, right? And they're very smart in many ways, but like, they, my dog, and I assume a lot of dogs, has no idea what a leash is. Like, it just, it can't put this idea into its head, right? That if the leash goes around a pole, there is nothing he can't move. You know, he's going to be trapped. It's, it's literally like, he has evolved to to not see the leash. It's invisible. It's completely invisible, right? It's obvious to a, a three-year-old, you know, a three-year-old human can figure out like, if I'm tied to a rope and I go around a pole, like, if I keep going around the pole, I'm just going to hook myself to the, to the pole. But my dog will just go around that, that pole until he's stuck to the pole, you know, wrapped around it. And I think they just, he doesn't have it in his world. Like, the leash doesn't exist in, in his world. It's like, he literally has, has evolved to not see the leash.

Yes. Well, that, that's what I, that's what I worry about with some of these like summoning UFOs techniques. It's like, on the one hand, it's insane if you can get these things to show up. You get high resolution, you know, cross-sensor data or whatever. Like, that's amazing, right? And then on the other hand, like, are you just like a raccoon chewing on the power lines of like, a campsite, and they're like, "Stop chewing on the power lines," and they just show up. And then like, occasionally they'll like, jam your [ __ ] They'll like, jam your sensors and like [ __ ] with you. Like, is that, you know, like, uh, so it's a, yeah, I think I think we are, that's a, that's a great analogy. It's like we're, we're like the ant on like, an, the forearm of something so much larger than us. And it's so hard to sort of, you know, really grasp and understand, you know, what's going on. And there's a great book called Forbidden Knowledge by, I think it's Roger Shatuck. And like, you, you have all these like, this like, the archetypal story of like, Prometheus and Faust, you know, like going directly for the knowledge. And it, it usually like, doesn't end well. You have a couple, you have a couple of, a couple of myths that sort of do are counter to that. Like, you have this, you know, Christian Rosenkreuz and the Rosicrucians or whatever. Like, I think he just like stepped inside, you know, he, he actually just witnessed the Ark of the Covenant and he saw, he saw everything and he wasn't burned, you know, he went to the holiest of holies.

Um, but I think that's very rare.

Um, so, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting like, like our, all of our lives are like, you know, it's like a, it's like a Werner Herzog movie or something where you're just like, you know, whether it's taking a, you know, rubber steamship up a, up a, up a mountain, you know, Fitzcarraldo or whatever, you know, a steamship for like, rubber, rubber mining or what, rubber, you know, I don't know.

Um, um, in, uh, in South America, or like, you know, Aguirre, the Wrath of God. Like, they're all these like, quixotic characters, you know, and, you know, like, I don't know. These quests are definitely worthwhile, but we're also, we're just like, we're like dust in the wind, too. Like, dust in the wind, dude.

I, you know, I, I would love to see this guy on your channel. I've interviewed him once and I should have an interview with him again, but I think it'd be great if, if anything, just to get him more exposure, you know, is, uh, Dean Radin. I don't know, have you heard of, uh, Dean Radin, scientist?

Yeah. Yeah. I've met Dean and, uh, we talked about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about doing a thing and I, I should have him on. I think that'd be great. It's just, I don't know, man. Like, that stuff, you just, I, I, I, I want to like, I want to like, show people how real it is. And like, you know, he's been on the circuit for like, he has forever, a couple of decades. And he knows his stuff. And he goes on, he does all these different experiments. And they're all really interesting. But there's some sort of dark matter between that just like the UFO thing and like consensus reality. And I think that the UFO thing is shifting. And to go against some of the maybe nihilism I've expressed in this interview, you know, I do think the gap is closing. And people are, you know, Tulsi Gabbard, the head of DNI, was like, "We need disclosure on UFOs," like, as part of her mandate. Now she's probably forgotten about it. And, you know, um, deciding whether or not to cowtow about, you know, Epstein being, you know, a real intelligence front or not, along with her colleagues, you know, right now.

Um, uh, and, and, you know, isn't focused at all on UFOs. But the fact that she put in her platform, really cool. The fact that Don Jr. interviewed Ross Coulthart, like, all these things are really cool. You know, Jake Barber coming out, David Grusch. If you were to snapshot where we are now to like, you know, seven, eight years ago. Yeah. You know, you'd be like, you know, the field's actually like made a lot of progress. And it's really, it's really cool to see that. But yeah, I'd love to interview Dean is my short answer. But, uh, I just, I don't know. I get sort of demoralized with a lot of the parapsychology stuff where I'm like, it's fun to like, have these conversations, but unless you have like a working model as to how some of this stuff works, he, the people who are going to believe you are just going to believe you. And the people who aren't are just not. And then if you can't turn it into science and tech, you know, I, I don't know. I don't know what to do with it.

But, but I've, the guy I mentioned, one of my closest mentors, the PEAR Lab guy, I've interviewed him twice now. And I haven't put it out because he, he wants it put out in like, a precise, you know, sort of way. And like, the interviews weren't that inspiring. Like, I was probably taking liberties with my own understanding of parapsychology. And he was kind of nitpicking about, you know, where I was wrong or whatever. And, but we're get, I'm going to do something with him.

Um, and hopefully, hopefully it's good. But, uh, yeah, I don't know, man. I think the parapsychology stuff, a lot of science will come out like when it's when it's supposed to or something. Like, I, you know, I think I think there are all these, there are all these scientific things that are really crazy that, that are real. And then why they don't seem to touch consensus reality, I just, I just don't know why. I don't understand it.

Yeah, I would love like a live Faraday cage, Ganzfeld experiment. Yeah, that would be cool. I don't, I was thinking of that to make that somehow reality. Get Dean Radin there or something. Do a live Faraday test. There's just no way that that we. That's a great idea. We should do that. Yeah. Like a visual, like you, like I found this person. They have no idea what's going on. You know, they're, they're going to do this psychic experiment or whatever. And then Dean's there. And Yeah. Or just have Dean design the experiment. Dean there. Yeah. Dean designs the experiment, but he's not even there or something. Yeah. That's cool. I don't know. It seems like something like that.

But, um, I'd be remiss if we don't talk about, um, the, the tech. You, you've looked so much into like the Biefeld-Brown effect. You're so knowledgeable. You can just pull all these facts, um, out of your brain. Have you looked into, uh, Chris Chiba? Have you seen his his recent breakthrough? Oh, you'll love it, man.

Um, so he's a Princeton professor, but this, this new, this new experiment he came out with, uh, he just did it in his garage. So, basically, he looked, he looked into. So, it's, it's amazing, dude. Um, and I'll put up some visuals right now so the audience can know. All right. So, so basically, this is the experiment. And so, dude, did Chris Chiba, is he said he found a loophole through Maxwell's equations. So he went through Maxwell's equations and he found a loophole for where you could actually get, um, you could interact with the magnetic field of an object.

Um, so basically, there's, and you can look this up afterwards, but there's confusion with where does the magnetic field, does the magnetic field of the Earth spin with the Earth, or does it stay static, right? And so what he determined is, and that's still up for debate, like, they still don't really know. Modern physics doesn't know if the magnetic field of a magnet, uh, spins with the object, or if it stays static. And so, so this guy, Chris Chiba, um, basically went through all the, the Maxwell equations and said, "Oh, there's this loophole, right?" And, and basically he released a paper in 2016. Okay. Yeah. So here's the paper, right? And so he wrote, he wrote this paper, and it's called, "Electric Power Generation from Earth's Rotation Through Its Own Magnetic Field." And that's him, Chris Chiba. And I don't know who Kevin Hand is. That's his, that's his just his friend.

Um, and he published this in 2016. And so he went on Professor Simon's, went on Professor Simon's channel. And he said, "No one contacted him or anything like, nothing happened. Like, nobody did anything. No one said, 'Hey, let's try this out.'" So this was in 2016. Let me see.

Um, yeah. And basically it goes through and says, um, he identified a loophole and he shows that voltage could be continuously generated in a low magnetic Reynolds number conductor rotating with Earth. And, uh, provided that it's in, that there's some certain constraints made. And I can talk about it in a second. Uh, but basically he says, "We solve the relevant equations for one laboratory realization and from this solution, we predict voltage magnitude and sign, um, dependence on the system dimensionation relative to Earth's rotation." Okay.

So this was in 2016. He has this this theoretical abstract saying that, um, you can actually create a voltage and sign, right? So plus or minus. And so fast forward now, again, no one does anything. So then fast forward to this year, and he creates, so he just does it. No one, no one contacted him. No one did anything. So he just built it in his garage. And so what you see here is this is a, I think it's a, it's a magnetic ferrite material. So it's, it's a specific type of material. And it has to be in the shape of a tube. So it has to be a tube. And that has something to do with the topology of it. And that has to do with the theory that again, goes above my pay grade in electromagnetics. But according to this, now they just, it's sitting here static, but spinning now on the Earth, it creates microvolts. And actually, and you can rotate this thing, and he said it will rotate through zero and then reverse charge. So it'll actually push microvolts the other direction.

Um, so essentially, you're talking about something not moving, uh, but is creating a electric charge. Right now, it's microvolts, but. Whoa. Yeah. This would go a long way towards, um, electromagnetics. Whoa. Yeah, I got to talk to this guy. This is fascinating. Yeah, he's at Princeton. And he went on Professor Simon's show, which is not that big. It's, I love the show. It's, it's smaller than yours.

Um, and since then, I've seen nothing, like, literally nothing on it. Uh, Sabine Hossenfelder did a show on it. And she said, "Yeah, it's possible." What did she say? She said it could be possible. Yeah, but that's it. Like, whoa, it just died on the. She, she could be a Debbie Downer if some, you know, sometimes. So that's cool. Yeah.

Um, I got to look into it. That's fascinating. Wow. Yeah, this is right up. It's so awesome. And, um, yeah, it's huge. Chris Chiba. So check, check that out. I will check that out. That is really interesting. So, it's basically the ability to tap into the Earth's electromagnetic field to produce voltage, which I don't really know of anything that can do that now.

Well, well, basically, it's the Faraday effect, right? So, any, uh, conductive material is, is transferred through a magnetic field, right? If you have a changing, changing magnetic field, it's going to generate electric current. So the point is, if you're spinning on the Earth, right? If you're spinning on the Earth, if the, if the field of the Earth is static, then you are moving, you're moving through a changing magnetic field.

Mhm. Mhm. And so that's, you can, you can then create microvolts or whatever based on the differential of, you know, electromagnetism as you're moving or whatever. Yeah. Basically, if you have the right topology, which he, he argues is this, uh, shape of a tube, and you're mo, and you're spinning with the Earth, that it's moving through the Earth's own magnetic field. And that was his first paper is creating electric, I think generating electric energy or charge, I believe, through the Earth's own magnetic field.

So, does the, does the tube have to be moving?

No. Well, the tube is just static, but it's, it's moving because the Earth is spinning.

Uh-huh. So, like, would this be, you know, I'm looking at the title of this thing, like the Filippo, Filippo Bondi or whatever, beyond the, Yeah. You know, scalar Doppler tomography showing that there's sort of like, this energy grid below the, the pyramids or whatever. The idea would be like, they would be tapping into the Earth's electromagnetic field via these like tubes or something.

So that's my speculation, right? This is from my video. Um, from your video. Okay. Yeah, this is my video. So, that's what.

I speculate is that could the pyramids, you know, could this explain the pyramids? Um, so interesting. But that's just my speculation, um, for a few different reasons. But if you can generate electrical energy from just the earth spinning and you're you, um, through known unknown physics, right, that we currently don't understand, then I speculate that you could that that it could be possible that you could get some strange effects from the pyramids.

Um, I and I just interviewed them. I have an interview coming out that'll be before this video actually, uh, beyond Friday. And man, that guy is legit. Like, I don't see how his his tech is not legitimate. So cool. That's awesome. Yeah, I've heard good things about him. I'm I'm I'm going to Europe this summer and wanted to uh ideally catch up with him. That's that's so cool. Well, I'm excited for that interview, man. That'll be fun. It was Yeah, it's I really enjoyed it.

So, with Trevor Graci and uh Filipo Beyond, it was the third time actually, uh, finally got Filippo, finally nailed him down. Um, but it's legit, man. He goes through, I asked him everything I could think of on the the technique. I mean, he did it in a laboratory in his garage basically, he shows and I, he, I asked him questions about, hey, how does that work? Um, actually in his garage of the laboratory. So, really interesting and that tech is breakthrough, seems like. I mean, I feel like if he laid off the like, we don't know if it's a perfect AI reconstruction point, the other stuff feels hard to argue with that, like that those star Doppler tomography scans are real. Yeah. There's definitely something going on under there. Yeah.

So, I feel like if he was a little more like, I don't know what's going on, but I don't know. I'd love to talk to him, but this is all armchair coming from me. I don't really understand it. So, it's wild. It's cool. Yeah.

Um, well, basically, and I confirmed with him directly, is it's the same tech as it's called laser viometry. Did you? You're a history buff. So, do you remember back in the CIA in the Cold War, the CIA? And now they have it where you can shine, you can shine a laser at a window and they have a m a little machine with headphones on it and you can actually hear what's what they're saying inside the room. Whoa. Have you heard of this? No. Oh, you? Yeah. You'll love all this stuff. Yeah. Look up laser vibrometry. Crazy. Okay.

And um, that's crazy. So, there's a device and they have them now. You can purchase them where it'll shine a laser at a and that's why there's no windows on skiffs, right? Well, that's obviously obviously you can see in, right? But you could so you could like see you could see screens and you could read people's lips here in too. But what they had the tech exists called laser viometry where you just shine a laser on the window and it picks up the little micro vibrations on the window. [ __ ] crazy. And so it transmits. I mean, hearing takes place via like little vibrations like in the your inner ear and you have like bone conduction where like I think it was was it Beethoven who was deaf? Yeah. Yeah. And he would like literally like like bite on like a some sort of charged rod or I don't mean charged like metallic rod that was attached to his uh piano and um and he would sort of hear it would it would circumvent you know the outer ear or whatever which was you know messed up and just go straight to the you know kind of vibrations or whatever and he would just he would he would listen to music that way. So yeah, interesting. Okay. So, sorry. That's what they're doing. Yeah.

But no, that's that's basically the tech. And I asked him, "Hey, is it like this?" And he said, "It's basically exactly like that, except now we have a 100 kilometer long uh antenna because it's in space. It's synthetic aperture radar." So, the aperture is the is the radar diameter. So, the point is since since you're so far away and the satellite's traveling so fast, you're effectively creating a giant radar. It's around, he said, dozens of kilometers. So, it's probably less than a 100 kilometers, but basically you have this really wide aperture radar. And so, you're doing the same thing. You're shining like the laser down on the ground and you're you're and then you're able to listen to what's actually the vibrations uh going through the ground.

And um I think one from my perspective the reason he's so aggressive in his claims is he's just he's so confident in the technology like um I think he just has so many examples and like he's 100% confident in his mind it exists. The technology has been used to like I think map magma chambers inside volcano like it's a real technology. I've looked at in the venture capital context synthetic aperture radar companies that were mentioned in the article that his thing came out with like Capella Space and Umbra and that you know I looked at both of those companies. So that's it's a real modality and it gets you to higher resolution than um you know optical like Planet Labs and like you know those sort of constellations. So I know that's real. And then I've heard Sar Doppler again Sabina Hosenfelder who is a Debbie Downer in a lot of cases who also argued against the AI reconstruction admitted that Sardopmography is a very real modality. So, like I I think if anybody's saying there's nothing under underneath the pyramids that they're being extremely dogmatic, you know, based on this and then what's underneath there, that feels like the mystery.

And then this is what [ __ ] sucks again where it's like maybe this just stays stuck in this liinal space is like that thing is totally gatekept. Like is the Egyptian Ministry of Culture ever going to let anybody especially these like renegade scientists who want to rewrite history down there to see? Probably not, right? So probably not. But I think you can prove it anywhere else. That that's the point why I'm so optimistic on this is if the if the technology is real and you know talking to them and looking into them at least it seems like it it it could definitely be possible based on their previous examples. But if it's real, it's so profitable, right? I mean, you'll be able to analyze, you know, while you're drawing gas from a from a current gas field, you can actually analyze like how much is left in there. It could be for, you know, any sort of minerals exploration. Um, like, and I think the military applications have already been known. I'd be very surprised like like how did they know? And again, this is where you get in trouble. I don't speak on behalf of any government, but how did they know where those tunnel systems were? You know, when they bombed Iran, you know, you got to be pretty damn accurate. You have to be really accurate.

What's the What's the like is it IES? Yeah, Icei is Yeah. Southern California based um synthetic aperture radar company. And I think they're Finnish originally. They're from Finland, but they Yeah. The fact that they have like a Southern California outfit to me shows that they had to do that to work with the American government. So, yes. No, I think all I mean you get to like 0.25 like you get you get to like really impressive um levels of granularity and resolution with this stuff. So, it's much better than optical. So, yeah. No, that's definitely real. And then yeah, the Doppler tomography part is the part that I'm less familiar with, which yeah, you might explain the tunnel thing for sure. Um I think even Beyond says like I can't talk about the work that I do, you know, outside of the the the um you know, this stuff with the with the pyramids, but I think I think Beyond himself does uh work with uh the Italian, you know, military and government. So no comment. But and um so you know Yeah. Yeah.

The biggest thing would be the the uh S4, right? Imagine that. And I'm sure the the US government be would be terrified of this, right? If you could see where all the tunnels were, but like just imagine right away if we could confirm that the S4 hangers are really there like Bazar is saying, you could immediately corroborate. I I just see huge breakthroughs. I think they are there. Yeah, but we have no proof, right? Everyone's asking where's the proof? Where's the evidence? You know what? If now you go Yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah, we'll see. I I would I don't know. Who knows? Cool.

And then um I wanted to ask you about this the Bofield Brown effect you talked about. You're obviously a at least way more expert than me in Townsson Brown. I've looked into his effect a little bit. Um, but what I what I was really impressed by was this one encounter and we call him uh Collider Bob. That's what I uh Jack Jack and I call him. But this just came out and it was on a flight safety channel and I thought it was a very compelling one of my more popular videos this year and it's it's this guy um Bob Pet and he's just coming out recently publicly and he came out on the on the flight safety channel with uh Todd Curtis and a a very compelling um UAP encounter and what he what he talks about is this crazy looking like antenna. Let me get a better picture of it. This crazy looking antenna uh that flew that flew supersonic right past his glider and he got a very good look at it, you know, and in a glider uh it's quiet. It's it's clear, you know, there's no vibration or anything. So, he got an amazing view of this thing. Um and for quite a bit of time, right? You know, you're talking Mhm. 20 30 seconds he saw this thing and based off the distances cuz a glider pilot knows exactly where the landmarks are. So, he knew it flew seven miles in less than 10 seconds. Um, so that's well past supersonic. That's like Mach 4. And then it flew right next to the glider. And so he got an amazing look at this thing. And it the the structure of it, sorry, the structure of it is was amazing. So, it's basically it was like four to five feet tall and it was like a flying lollipop where it had this uh this this black structure was like a black hole he said. Let me get a better picture here. So, this was like a it was just like an absence of light. So like a a black hole and then protruding out of it out of the bottom of this flying lollipop thing was this antenna like three to four inches long and it had three he said like actually they were they were square type uh structures on it and at the top there was a silver reflective like hat you know shaped like a little UFO thing and I had a lot of the uh in the audience they said hey that seems like the town uh bofield Bill Brown effect. So, I don't know if you were aware of this. I Yeah, I went through it um before this. I don't know. It's hard to say cuz capacitor like definitely is curved like that. So like uh you know you have two electrodes in a capacitor and you'll you know they're they're both sort of you know um uh kind of you know concave towards each other and um you know it's sort of you know in his experiment it was an asymmetric capacitor. So the you have the negative electrode is larger than the positive electrode and it creates this sort of possible differential that um you know again I think we're sort of weak on the theory but the the negative sort of chases the positive. Um so yeah, is that that top thing this that might look like it somewhat but you need like a bottom you need like you need two capacitor you need two electrodes facing each other. So, I don't see that. That's insane. That's like the coolest looking thing ever, but um Yeah. No, I don't I don't think it really resembles a Bfield Brown effect necessarily. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah.

But it's wild. That's so interesting. The thing that I think of when I see that is like, you know, if you you do the original translation of uh you know, St. Francis Vasisi having his experience on Mount Lever. It's flaming torch and I'm like that would look like an antenna today, you know, like a torch or something, you know. So, but that I don't know. Yeah. Bofil Brown effect also I think the super rudimentary effect that you probably the craft itself wouldn't resemble the experiment that proves the effect if that makes sense. you you'd use the effect from the experiment into, you know, and and implement something probably involving counterrotating cylinders. Um, maybe maybe superconductors, maybe like the, you know, pleth stuff. Um, so yeah, I think there's probably a connection there between Brown's stuff with direct current and Ning Le's gravity shielding stuff. Um, you know, with the AC AC current, like some of these topics are so difficult.

I know you've looked into like the Nazca mummies and you talked you talked extensively about that on on Joe Rogan and I'm looking forward to whatever work work you have coming out. Um, but what about what about bogusphere? Have you looked into the the bogusphere? I've I've held it for an extended period of time and like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. I don't I don't know what to say on it. I it's I I like I I I'm inclined to believe that like Haime isn't lying and that like this guy probably is just an earnest guy that filmed the thing anomalously flying around and then he picked it up and then he sent it to Hime and like and I don't think Haime's lying about it and then you know you have all these like weird readings coming off of it and so but then you look at the thing and it looks kind of fake. It looks like my first impression was like there's no way this is real. Like, you know, it's like the weird etchings and stuff, but the etchings also pattern match and resemble what a lot of people say, you know, their alien experiences are, you know, look like or whatever when they look at quote unquote alien artifacts. So, I don't know, man. It's it's stuck in this sort of liinal space for me. Um I I I um encountered it with my friend Amar from Yes Theory and both of us were initially skeptical and then we like I don't know learned more about the weird fact pattern around it and like, you know, held it in our hands and there was a a guy there who was like an employee of Haime and like when he would hold that his whole hand would like all the hair would raise on his body and they they detect like weird electromagnetic signatures around this thing. It's 3x the um hardness of normal like aerospace grade aluminum. Um, and then it involves there's there's layers. They're like like the external shell is like singular and then the layer below that is like two hemispheres like conjoined together. That thing is weird, man. I don't know. Um, and then the the microchip grid thing, you know, so strange that design. Um, so here's the good news. It's being tested by aerospace contractors that work with NASA. And so, um, my hope is that, um, we get some real answers soon. But the issue with even that is like you you do these tests and then you get some anomalous thing from the tests. It's like Gary Nolan's isotope ratio. Like you have a prestigious university, Stanford. you have Gary Nolan, this tenure, you know, microbiologist who's like Nobel nominee, you know, whatever. And he's saying that, you know, you have isotope ratio, and he shows you the pieces, and they're little pieces or whatever. But I'm I'm just worried that with the bug sphere, it's like we get some similar like, yeah, it's weird. It's anomalous. I we don't know, you know. Um, and like, you know, still this sort of cat-and-mouse thing where you're getting you're getting kind of teased. Um, but we'll see. I'm open. I don't know. Yeah, because it I watched the Yeah. the recent uh or the conference or presentation, if you will, and Eric Berles that was there and I was like, damn, man. This that is amazing. Um Yeah, it's cool. And they had the video he went. Yeah, they have and they allegedly apparently have everything, right? They have the the human uh accounts. They have so witness testimony. You have videos. And then you have this this object which looks like it was just etched by like a eight-year-old or something. Yeah. And you have video go you have video that's like seven minutes long or something with like there is a little gap when he put the guy picks it up. So you got to you have to note that. But it's it's a long video and I don't think that the guy like is is been hesitant to, you know, go fully public and not remain anonymous. So I don't know. Maybe he's playing some sophisticated prank like social psychology prank on people. I don't, you know, but like I don't I don't think so. Um so I don't know, man. I don't. It's fascinating. But I don't I I also like I I I you know I can't conclude anything super you know in a bold way.

But then on the other side I think people are like it's for sure faith. Like what are you basing that? How can you say that? Like what why would you say that? And I've spent enough time with Hime Man who he's another guy where like you put hoaxer next to this guy's name enough. Yeah. You're just going to like stigmatize him. But he's not. I I find him to be more um boldstated and credulous than maybe me. Um but I don't think he's intellectually disingenuous or dishonest. And I think in his mind he's almost a little more like simple in like a cool way where he's like there's certain things where like I feel like I have to hold back on like you know actually like I wish I could I could like my instinct is that some a lot of these things are just real you know but like um I think he just you know he's just like look these things they're tridactyl beings they're you know you found them in a cave with dietmacious earth do you think this like wera gravedigger like like like synthetically created them and then one has a tidactyl fetus inside of it and like like he's like of course it's real. Like what do you mean? And then I think he he maybe takes a leap in saying he's sure it's extraterrestrial. I don't think the signal to noise ratio is great on the DNA, but maybe we'll have some interesting updates there soon as well. Um so that's exciting. But um yeah, it's uh I don't I don't find him to be a dishonest actor at all. Um, you know, maybe there's some subconscious thing, you know, when you're in news for that long where, you know, you have to speak slightly, you have to get headlines or something, but like I I don't know, man. I don't You spend a lot of time with the guy. He's like independently very wealthy. um you know just based on his like news channel covering conventional stuff and like sells a product that does like you know millions and millions of revenue and you know it's like a health product. It's like algae and kelp or something. Um so this guy does I mean it's like a true like passion of his and I don't I don't think it's driven by, you know, it's not it's not a grift. Um so yeah. Yeah.

Well um that is great to hear actually. Um, I know when I when NASCAR Mummies originally came out, I came out super pro of it. You know, this is what we've been waiting for and I end up retracting the video. Um, I and then looking back I was like, I shouldn't have retracted it. Uh, I guess cuz either way you you put it out there, it's out there, you know, but I was so positive on it and then I pulled the video um and I interviewed Leslie Kaine and I asked her about it and it seems like just in the community I don't know if Richard Dolan went down there. There was some event where Richard Dolan went down and it was a similar Nazumi type event where Haime Masan had found um, you know, he alleged were alien bodies etc. and it turns out uh it you know, didn't pan out. Yeah.

What does that mean not panning out? Like who like I I think that the rule rule of thumb is like if somebody says don't look into something you should look into it and you know and they're you know coming from some official like you know channel it's like okay and then only listen to first principles arguments. So if somebody says this is fake because you know like Steve Meera told me you know we measured the the the the morphology type that you were highest conviction on you know me speaking like highest conviction on you know slapping some probability that they're real would be uh the these M types these like larger hominid creatures or whatever. So Steve Mera is like you know I think the bones from Maria one of these M types one of the fanges is you know male one is female. we have these like University of Paris studies where we looked at this stuff that I take super seriously because I'm like okay like first principles arguments like he's saying that this is true it's kind of beyond my pay grade to debunk that you know and say that like that the genetics were you know weren't weren't studied properly. So like I take that very seriously. Uh but somebody being like, you know, we know now that that is a ho like we've decided collectively like [ __ ] off. Like what what are you talking about? Like you need you need first principal stuff. And so the I'm going to come out with a documentary on it and it's just going to be a fire hose of probably conflicting information on where you should, you know, lay your chips. But um but facts, just facts, and then you can decide for yourself. And hopefully that helps us, you know, snap it to a grid, either true or false, uh, at some point in the near near future. Uh, because I do think we're going to do some interesting follow-up work on it and and start to know more conclusively soon. But, um, again, that's my hope, but who who knows? But, uh, but yeah, no, I I I I don't I don't trust anybody that says, you know, you know, they they say you can't look into a thing or they say something fake. don't give you they don't give you a good reason as to why. That's if anything it's a reversing indicator that you should look into it.

That's awesome, man. I'm I'm I was really excited to hear that you are looking into it. Like seriously, you know, just I'm so far away. I'm in a different continent. Just it's such a deep large topic, you know, the Nazco mummies. I'm really glad you're looking into it. I and I'll say this as well, like I do think they're pro there. Look, I I'm friends with a lot of people who think about disclosure uh more in this like step-wise like managed process. Like Carl Nell thinks about it in this like we need a panel and we need to you know whatever you know we need to like people will be shocked if they knew or whatever. And I just think the disclosure people are all going to lose if we don't get like more like just more like you're already at over 50% consensus like probably in the US that UFOs are real. So if you know and then but like, you know, there are people who are like well if we find out that beings are hybrids or this or that it's like too much. It's too much. But it's like no, it's just it's just true. just you should just seek truth and if you go for the you go for the managed process, it's going to probably blow up and it's probably just not going to it's not going to work super well. So again, you know, I'm happy to like work with those people. I understand where they're coming from philosophically, you know, I I like a lot of them, consider them friends, but I'm more in the just like let's just just like let let this stuff out, you know? Yeah.

Everything we try and control as humanity just gets screwed up. It seems like like Yeah. Yeah. It's always it's always, you know, whenever you try to hit a triple bank shot, one of the banks is going to get [ __ ] up and you're going to get a trajectory that it's like America like trained, you know. Oh, Bin Laden. Osan. Yeah. And like, you know, and like it was working with Saddam at one point in the Iran Iraq war. And like you're you're going to create some like and so this topic is like this you know think about like American neocon neoliberal foreign policy for the last 50 years where we're like just you're it's a hydra you cut one head off you get five in its place game of whack-a-mole. It's probably similar with dis UFO disclosure where like you try to do some like managed thing and it's gonna it's gonna blow up in your fa the best you know I thought that that you know um the uh uh uh congressional um you know thing the recent one with you know Eric Davis and Lou Alzando and Chris Melon and stuff like I thought that could have gone better you know felt like the takeaway was like you know this this you know irrig irrigation crop circle or whatever Yeah. So that was that was really really frustrating. Um so I didn't think that went particularly well, you know, if you wanted to actually push push the this stuff forward. Um but the one the one line that I loved in the whole thing was like Eric Davis was like yeah like if there is disclosure like the NHI are in charge of it and which true it's a total logical fallacy to think you can manage it if you believe in the NHI thing. You can't simultaneously believe you can like manage a thing that involves them revealing themselves if they're like way more powerful than you. Like it's literally like a logical fallacy. So I thought that was like the one good line from what was like a you know fairly frustrating uh uh hearing I think and that would explain a lot. Um but hey man, thank you so much for your time today. I had just one final question. This is from Alli and Justin. They run a UAP society UAP news show. They're they're huge fans. And uh they asked uh what is your greatest hope for the future of humanity? Oh, I love that.

Um, I don't know. Feels like humans, myself included at, you know, many times, you know, mostly are like chasing like the wrong things, like the wrong metrics. And it's like this cult of scale and of money and you know material world stuff and uh everybody's sort of hypnotized by that or like mo you know most people are and and um I think there's this other probably subset that are focused on like you know love and virtue and you know contemplation of kind of the metaphysical and things that transcend you know faith in higher things and uh if we could shift, you know, more towards that, you know, and away from like the material world status games thing, that that would be that would be a great a great way, you know, for for humanity to go. And the tricky thing with studying UFOs is UFOs and and aliens are like this generic thing. And you know, if you believe in the angels and demons dichotomy, which I roughly do, then like half the time you're studying really dark [ __ ] Yeah. And like, you know, it's it's bound up in like weird like the occult and like, you know, control systems and, you know, um, you know, you even get into Jacqu Valet's stuff and it's like, you know, like they're using like Pavlovian conditioning and like BF Skinner style stuff to like get us to believe certain like it's weird. Um, and the abductions feel at times like demonic or something. So I really, you know, if believe if I I think that this the thing that's amazing about the alien thing is it breaks our materialist reductionist worldview. Um, because you're seeing something that's observable in the form of UFOs and maybe even abduction experiences and you can study that stuff scientifically and like you can say there, you know, probably government there there have been like government interfaces with this and government programs. So, it's like easier for people to understand, but really like UFOs should be the thing that like gets you to God. And it shouldn't be that if you get if you get lost at UFOs or whatever, you're like stuck on first base, you know? That's that's probably that's probably like not the way to live your life is just to like create some like encyclopedic ontology in your brain of like, you know, like like arcana like lore like like esoteric lore or whatever like that's I don't know if that's you probably lost the plot. So yeah, I think I don't know my my hope for humanity is and you know, I should definitely take my own advice here is just like I don't know we we have faith in higher things and become become better people and we we lose our obsession with these sort of lower lower metrics which um yeah, I mean, it's it's going to like blow the world up like it's not it's not going to lead anywhere good if if if we don't transcend them. Yeah. Amazing. That's my hope um for increasing knowledge. I think the AI revolution we're going through right now um decentralized information just like like we talked about, you know, the fact that Jake Barber could hear Mike Herrera give that testimony, you know, changed changed his actions in the future, you know, I think this decentralized information that that you're definitely a part of, I think we're all a part of, I think you are too, is my hope that it brings knowledge and and affects us in that way. It already is. You I think breakthroughs occur through consilience. So like the fact that you can cross reference a Princeton's professor on the earth's electromagnetism via some tube thing and then some Italian researcher who's doing studies of SAR Doppler tomography under the pyramid. Like that's amazing. That's this, you know, Eio Wilson is this biologist who wrote a book called Consilience and that I think the scientific breakthroughs that occur occur through interdomain knowledge and we've lived in this hyperspecialized era and there's a lot of dark stuff that comes with the AI stuff, but there's a lot of really good good stuff too and the the um breaking down of the compartments is a really positive after effect of AI where you you get this sort of increased consilience-based knowledge. You have amateurs like, you know, me and and like like you who can have be like a mile wide and, you know, a few inches deep and but make these really important connections and then distribute important work that like, you know, the the 200 IQ physics professor stuck in string theory, you know, isn't isn't doing anything, you know, like, you know, and we're doing stuff that's that's actually like moving the needle. So yeah, it's it's exciting, man.

I the final thing I'll say is I feel like people overindex on like you have Steven Greer on and it's like it's just ZPE and it's stuck in a it's like a it's in this mystery box in the government and it's you know it's going to come out and once the zero point energy comes out everything's going to be fine. Yeah. And like I so I hate that. I hate that. I think it's the dumbest like it's it's so technocratic and it abdicates all h you know humans of their own personal responsibility to like be better people and I kind it's kind of like the name of the show, you know, alchemy, you know, it's you're the science you get is the science you deserve or whatever and so you know when we if if we ever unlock the Bfield Brown thing or unlock you know the you know any of these like really exciting novel breakthroughs it'll be probably stepwise is commensurate with our own uh conscious understanding and, you know, our own, you know, self-reflection and and pro personal progress and so, you know, I love that as like a model for um to me it's like a no noble mythology like if you, you know, cuz there's so many people who just go for truth and then they don't they don't realize that, you know, working on themselves has anything to do with the the truth they get or whatever.

Oh, that's amazing, Jesse. That's why you have a killer channel, man. That's why you're killing me. Killing me in the views, man. I think uh so smart, dude. So passionate. Obviously, people can tell that from your work. Um Well Well, likewise, man. And you I I love the stuff you've been doing. And I feel like you're you're you're experiencing this like exciting, you know, especially with the the the Beyond stuff. So super. I don't know, man. Yeah, I think like I was saying, we got to move off the metrics. Like I don't know, my last video didn't perform well objectively, but I'm very very proud of it. And like that's, you know, who cares about all that [ __ ] you know? It's let's Yeah. I found I think that's most important. Yeah. It's like what, you know, none of it none of it ultimately you don't remember any of those little things. It's always like the, you know, yeah. what did we what do we push forward and what were the kind of magical magical moments and you're you're doing, you know, the same thing. So I'm excited. We'll see. Let's see where where things go. It's a a lot of a lot of irons in the fire between the mummies and the bogga thing and the, you know, the secret science stuff. Like something's got to got to give hopefully.

I think it will man. Um, yeah, and that's what and I've uh we talked before where I was like, man, I've thought of quitting, you know, uh maybe multiple times, but then it's it's really like this is the best this is the best part of it is uh getting to make these relationships and meet people such as yourself who uh I think are really intent on finding the truth, you know, at all costs, I think. Um, but, you know, you do have to make it sustainable um mentally and physically, you know. So I know. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh Yeah. You totally, man. It's um it's it's it's one of these things where, you know, I think what's meant for you always comes back around. So if you even if you give it up like temporarily, it'll uh it'll come back if if it's supposed to. And it uh I'm sure it would for you. Like I'm sure you can't quit. That would be my guess. Like like I stopped my channel for nine months. I didn't I know you didn't make a video for a while. I was like yeah wondering what's going on if you're working on some giant movie or something because it'd be months and you'd come out with something amazing. I didn't between Graham Hancock I think and David Grush. I didn't come out with anything and it I was in Denmark and I was with uh Amomar from Yes Theory and Grush happened to be a fan of Yes Theory and Amomar was like, "Dude, you have an alien focused channel and you're not trying to cover your friend who you've known for two years who just made like global news with Ross Coloulthart." And he's like and he's like, "You He's like you could definitely connect certain threads that like, you know, the Ross thing was very matter-of-fact and like and I'm like I don't know, man. I'm sick of all this [ __ ] like [ __ ] this like and then we called Dave and you know he kind of convinces me and I we call Dave and it was like, you know, do you want to do a collab with Yes Theory and me and you know, I'm convinced the Yes thing really helped because Yesury has this massive global channel and they're very positive and the whole thing just kind of happened very serendipitously and then when that came out I was like I'm back in the back in the thing, you know. Yeah. It's just like a bomb man out of nowhere.

Well, I think I think I think that those those those are the most cool things with disclosure is when things come out of left field and uh you should always be skeptical if something feels a little managed or whatever. But uh yeah, per our conversation. I just don't think it can be. I think it's uh it's it's happening on its own timeline.

Well, cool. Well, definitely if you come to Europe, man, um stop by Portugal. We'll meet up. Yeah. Yeah. If you haven't been to Fatima, that place is insane. If you haven't looked into the Fatima phenomena, I I know the story and I would love to I'd love to check that out and I'd love to hang, man. I I love Portugal. So, I think I told you this, but I was considering moving to Porto at one point. Oh, really? Yeah. In my life. Yeah. Yeah. Like two years ago. Wow. Um so I I absolutely love it there. Um, I've been to Nazareth, too. I have some friends who are big wave surfers who Wow. Um hang there a lot. Um, so yeah, man. I'll I'll try to stop by for sure. Yeah, Nazare is super cool. Well, yeah, thanks so much, Jesse, and everyone I'm sure knows your channel. If you haven't, then go check out American Alchemy. He's got amazing stuff. Um, yeah, breath of breath of videos, not just UAPs, but definitely focus UAPs lately. So, go check them out.

Yeah, man. Well, I I appreciate you. And uh yeah, I know we I won't I won't out this, but we have a possible exciting collab with you on my channel in the future. So So I hope that I hope that materializes and uh yeah, maybe we can do it in person in Europe or something, but let's uh let's figure that out. That'd be sweet, man. All right. Thanks, bro. All right. Thanks, Chris. Appreciate you, man.