Transcription
Good evening everybody, and welcome to the show. This is Radio Free Mormon, broadcasting behind Enemy Lines. Tonight's episode, the show the LDS church doesn't want you to see.
Now, I'm fully aware that when a person sees a title or a thumbnail like that, they're likely going to think this is clickbait. This isn't really going to measure up to what is being advertised. But I guarantee you that this is actually true. This is the show the LDS church doesn't want you to see. Particularly this episode of the show.
And the reason I say that is because the prior version of this episode got taken down by the church when they levied a copyright strike against it a year ago. Technically, it was September of 2024. A member of the church had leaked to me a slide deck. Now, this was no ordinary slide deck. This slide deck was reputed, at least by the person who leaked it to me, it was reputed to be slides used by Elder Don H. Oaks in a leadership training in the summer of 2024.
This leadership training was directed especially to bishops and state presidents. I doubt that President Oaks was talking directly to them, though he may have been. He was probably talking to the middle management guys who are then supposed to take his message directly to the state presidents and the bishops. And that message was, "Guys, you're not excommunicating enough Mormons. We need to up those numbers and don't be shy about it."
So, I got those slides. I did a show about it. It was episode 363 of Radio Free Mormon. And shortly after it went up, the church levied a copyright strike against it, which caused it to be taken down. Now, there are two versions, by the way, at least two versions. There's the one on YouTube, which did get taken down and which I'm going to replicate today. And there's also the audio version, which is available at radiorefreeman.org, which was not copyright-stricken because nothing was showed. It's just audio, right? But I am reading the actual substance, the actual words from those slides. So if you want to find out the actual language that was on those slides, you can go to radiorefreeman.org episode 363 and listen to it there.
What I'm going to do here is a little bit different, and I'll explain that as I go along. First off, here is the title slide. This is the show the Mormon church doesn't want you to see. It's going to feature President Oaks. President Oaks calls for more excommunications. Now, this is the page over at radiorefreeman.org. Episode 363, Elder Oaks Calls for More Excommunications, was the name of the original show back in September of 2024. And you can still find the full audio of that show there. But here we go with this show on YouTube, which I am recreating to take the place of episode 363. So, this is sort of two episodes. It's episode 363 and episode 432 at Radio Free Mormon.
The church did a copyright strike on the YouTube video that displayed all 17 of the slides in President Oak's leadership training session. This is how we know the church doesn't want you to see the show because they took it down already once before. But this time, I think we're going to outfox them. It is also how we know the church actually does claim ownership of these slides and their contents. Meaning that the person who leaked them to me knew what they were talking about. They weren't leaking something that somebody had just made up and did not really belong to the church. The fact the church did a copyright strike proves the church claims ownership. These are the real deal. These slides.
Now, we know that some strange things have been happening of late. There has been somewhat of a Mormon purge going on in the year of 2025. One of the people caught up in that is Michelle Stone. She of 132 Problems. She is a polygamy denier and quite prolific with her podcasts. And yet her leaders, her church leaders came to her and demanded or required of her that she take down all of her videos or face excommunication from the church. Michelle Stone complied and therefore her excommunication was canceled or at least forestalled. But that's certainly church action coming down from the leaders on members to get them in line. This happened in May of 2025. And at that time, Michelle Stone's producer, whose name is Karen Hyatt, admitted on Steve Pinecker's show at Mormon Book Reviews that Michelle Stone was pressured to take down her YouTube channel 132 Problems. So once again, that's back in May.
Now, more recently, Karen Hyatt, the Urswild producer of Michelle Stone's show, has put up her own podcast and been spouting the same ideas about Joseph Smith not practicing polygamy. As it turns out, she was recently excommunicated for it because she would not take down her podcasts. And she has been on a number of shows, including uh Steve Pinecker's show, also on Mormonism Live. I'm sure there's several others where she's been talking about the fact that she got excommunicated for disbelieving Joseph Smith's polygamy. And that is Karen Hyatt. And that is an excommunication that actually went through.
Now, here is a clip from Steve Pinecker who is announcing that not only has Karen Hyatt been excommunicated, but in fact, there is another Mormon podcaster's head who's on the chopping block and who is expected to get excommunicated next month. By the way, today's date is December 19th, 2025. Next month will be January of 2026. So, let's hear what it is that Steve Pinecker has to say about this.
"On Saturday, I posted a short in which I was talking about an LDS YouTuber was going to about to be excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Because the way it was worded, a lot of people uh reached out to me um thinking that it might have been Michelle Brady Stone. As a matter of fact, a lot of people reached out to Michelle with the same concern. Um it I was not speaking of Michelle. I want to clarify. I just was texting with her and I told her I will issue a clarification. Um the individ but I will tell you that it is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who has a prominent YouTube channel. Um and they will expected to be excommunicated next month. I was given permission to put that stuff out there, but by the way I worded the uh short, a lot of people kind of connected the dots thinking that it was Michelle Brady Stone. It is not Michelle Brady Stone who I was talking about. And I also want to make it clear, too, this person is not a polygamy revisionist or a monogamy affirm either. So, there's a lot of people making guesses out there and I don't really want to make this into a game, but I did want to issue that clarification just to let people know. Uh, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. I want to apologize to Michelle. Um, but I know she's cool, but these things do happen. So, we just ask for grace and forgiveness uh during this time."
Okay. So, that's what it is that Steve has to say. Now, it's interesting in that he seems to have personal knowledge from a Mormon YouTuber who is not a polygamy denier. I don't know why he can't just say the term polygamy denier. That's what they are. So apparently it's not another polygamy denier like Michelle Stone or Karen Hyatt who is going to be or looks like they're going to be excommunicated next month in January of 2026. But it is a Mormon podcaster, not a post-Mormon podcaster like me. So we'll have to wait and see what on earth this is that Steve is talking about and see how this pans out.
So, now that we're at the end of the year 2025 and all of this church disciplinary action seems to be cropping up all of a sudden, the question arises, has anything changed in the LDS church that might have prompted this? And the answer comes back, well, there was a new president of the church who was put in place just a few months ago, shortly after October General Conference, if memory serves, and that person is President Don H. Oaks, known to his friends as Dallas.
Now, this is the first slide. It says it's confidential. This is the only one of the slides that I'm actually going to be showing the way it appeared. And this was first confidential. The following training material is provided as a resource to state presidents and bishops only. This is the training material. This is the slideshow that President Oaks shared with bishops and state presidents, even if it was through middle management during the summer of 2024. Please do not publish, replicate, print, copy, reproduce, or distribute the content in any way.
Now, obviously, this confidential warning is not part of the content. Therefore, I feel fine in reproducing this. However, the rest of the slideshow is going to follow a bit of a different track. And this is why. Number one, I have not reproduced the original slides in this slideshow. Number two, I have removed all photos, which were pretty much all of President Oaks. I have removed all photos and the original composition of the slides. Three, I have changed the text of each slide, though I have worked hard to retain the original meaning of each slide. The rework text is mine, not the church's, and I hereby copyright it as such. This is my reworking of those slides. Okay, this isn't AI. This is RFM. And finally, number four, if you want to hear the actual original content of President Oak's slides, you can go to RFM363 at the radiorefreeman.org website and listen to it there. I think I've mentioned that before, but it bears repeating.
So, here's the first slide, reworked by yours truly, although this is the title. Repentance and Church Membership Councils. That was the name of the presentation that Don Oaks gave to leadership in the summer of 2024. And let's go on from there and let's look at slide two.
Here we have a picture of Don Oaks, but it's not the picture that was on the original slide. And this is my recapitulation of the words that were on that slide prepared by Don Oaks and delivered by him. President Oaks stresses the importance of forgiveness and that forgiveness is available only to those who repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. That's going to be very important for the point he wants to make, which is we need more excommunications, guys. So, let's get busy.
Slide three. President Oaks expresses concern that in recent years church leadership, by which he means himself, church leadership has noticed there are not as many disciplinary councils being held throughout the world. President Oaks also notes that even when disciplinary councils are held, not as many members are getting excommunicated. Damn it. This does not seem to make President Oaks happy.
Slide four. President Oaks quotes Doctrine and Covenants section 19, verses 16-17, to the effect that if members of the church do not repent, they must suffer even as Jesus suffered. You see, he's building his talk as we go along. He's got the suffering component in there. He's got the broken heart and the contrite spirit, which sounds kind of like it might be suffering. These things must happen before a person can truly repent. Therefore, these excommunications need to happen before a person can truly repent.
Slide number five. President Oaks believes the church has not been clear enough in teaching how important it is to have disciplinary councils and to have them more often and why it is that local bishops and state presidents need to be excommunicating more members. President Oaks intends to rectify that situation with this presentation.
Slide number six. President Oaks says that if you have received your endowment in the temple and thereafter have committed what the church considers a serious sin, it will be necessary in virtually every instance for a disciplinary council to be held. Without the holding of a disciplinary council, the member cannot truly repent, which means their sins are not forgiven. And the local leader is doing them no favors by not excommunicating them. You got to excommunicate them so they can repent and be forgiven. And there's more good things that come from excommunication that Elder Oaks will get to here in a bit.
Slide seven. Covenants made in the temple have been broken through the serious sin of the member. Okay, so you got a broken covenant that needs to be repaired. How can you do that? Excommunication is the answer. These covenants cannot be healed or made whole without having a disciplinary council with the bishop or state president and hopefully a disciplinary council that results in excommunication. You guessed it.
Slide number eight. The Book of Mormon tells us that mercy cannot rob justice. Justice is invoked upon the breaking of a covenant. Because mercy cannot rob justice, it is not enough for a local leader to give easy forgiveness without the rigors of a disciplinary council. The member must experience what the scriptures call the broken heart and contrite spirit. And this is best achieved through disciplinary councils, especially if the council ends in excommunication. The disciplinary council is necessary for the member to change and live life like the Savior, who I don't think was ever excommunicated, but he's the exception to every rule. Jesus is. A disciplinary council is necessary to get the member back on the covenant path. So, if you break a covenant and you're off the covenant path, you can't get back on the covenant path without a disciplinary council and getting excommunicated, at least if it's a serious sin, and you've received your endowment in the temple.
Slide nine. Some members who have committed serious sins believe they shouldn't have to go through a disciplinary council. They should not have to go through what they believe, that they don't deserve to be punished for their sins. Can you imagine a Christian thinking they don't have to be punished for their sins? What are they talking about? These members believe all they have to do is show they're sorry and do everything they can to make things better. Now, notice this. What President Oaks is saying is that if a member of the LDS church stands or does something wrong or hurts somebody in some way, that some members believe that all they have to do is show they're sorry. In other words, really be sorry and do everything they can to make things better. Well, that's not enough, according to President Oaks, because once that is done, they incorrectly think, why can't the bishop just forego the whole disciplinary council thing? It's not a bad question necessarily, but the problem is is that it takes the business of forgiveness out of the hands of the church and leaves the issue between the sinner and God. And the Mormon church doesn't want to do that. The LDS church wants to be there in the middle of it and dictating the conditions of repentance and letting you know when you have done enough repenting in order to be forgiven.
Slide 10. President Oaks likens the idea of excommunicating members for serious sins to operating on a person with cancer. I'm not sure this is the best analogy in the world, but this is the one he chooses to make. Recalling President Nelson's advice, President Oaks says you have to cut deep and wide to make sure you get all of the cancer. In the same way, President Oaks recommends disciplining members deep and wide in order to ensure the entirety of the sin has been rooted out. This is why he's focusing on excommunication. That's the only cut deep and wide enough for a lot of these sins.
Slide 11. President Oaks says it doesn't make any difference how much the wayward member may have suffered as a result of their particular sin. They still have to go through the discipline process. Now, I thought suffering was the whole point of it, but apparently you have to suffer at the hands of the church before you can repent, according to President Oaks. Not just generalized suffering that's not imposed by the LDS church. If the member isn't willing to go through the discipline process, the member doesn't have the broken heart and contrite spirit that is the hallmark of real repentance. But wait a second. I thought this broken heart and contrite spirit was already felt by the member who felt bad for the things that they had done. No, that's not the right broken heart and contrite spirit. The only true broken heart and contrite spirit can be experienced by the member going through the disciplinary council and being hopefully excommunicated.
Slide 12. President Oaks says that from 2010 until 2022, members who went through the disciplinary process had a much lower recidivism rate. So during this 12-year period from 2010 to 2022, he's saying that if a person went through the disciplinary process, then it was less likely that they were going to commit sins again, by which I think he could only measure that by a second or subsequent disciplinary process. But nevertheless, that's what he's claiming are the stats. This indicates President Oaks is concerned by recent reports, i.e., recent since 2022, and this was given in 2024. So he's going off the two years from 2022 to 2024, i.e., the most recent two years as of the time he's giving this training. This indicates President Oaks is concerned by recent reports that the number of disciplinary councils is down. And even when those disciplinary councils are held, the bishops and state presidents, they aren't excommunicating as many members as they should be.
Slide 13. President Oaks says that a lot of times a member who has been inactive for a long time and done God knows what in the meantime wants to come back to church and is allowed in with welcome arms like the prodigal. But this should not be done. He says instead, local leaders should carefully consider having a disciplinary council in order to help the returning member really experience the love of Christ. Yeah. There's nothing that says the love of Christ more than being a wayward son or daughter, deciding you want to go back to church and be reunited with the saints and find out that you have to go through a disciplinary council and maybe get excommunicated as a result. Yep, that's the love of Christ all over. But President Oaks is convinced that this is the only way the wayward member can truly repent and therefore you're not doing them any favors by not excommunicating them when they want to come back to church.
Slide 14. President Oaks says there are too many bishops and state presidents out there who are unwilling to hold disciplinary councils. President Oaks stresses that disciplinary councils are not meant to punish people and they should therefore be held regardless of how much suffering the member has already gone through. Even if the member has lost his job or his family as a result of the sin, even if the entire community holds him in disdain, hold that disciplinary council is what President Oaks urges. Now, note on this slide that President Oaks is very clear. The disciplinary councils are not meant to punish people. So, even if they've been punished enough by their sins by people other than the church and institutions other than the church, the church needs to get in there to get their pound of flesh as well. And then the last part of the slide, which is my comment on what Elder Oaks said. We know disciplinary councils are not meant to punish people, which is why the church changed the name from disciplinary councils to membership councils to make sure that we knew that these councils are not meant to punish people or discipline them.
Slide 15. President Oaks says another problem is that too many bishops and state presidents, even when they hold disciplinary councils, are not excommunicating members but instead imposing lesser penalties such as disfellowshipment or probation. Bishops and state presidents do this because they are scared the member will never return to church if they completely excommunicate them. But whether the excommunicant returns is not important, according to President Oaks, which is a strange thing to say when you're a leader of a church that's losing members hand over fist, but nevertheless, this is the training on the slides.
Slide 16. President Oaks says that we have to suffer as part of repentance, but it's not about punishment. Now, this was a part that confused me, okay? Because right there in slide 14, President Oaks says that disciplinary councils are not meant to punish people. And therefore, no matter how much punishment they've received from other sources, you go ahead and hold that disciplinary council. Why? Because it's not meant to punish people. And then just two slides later, President Oaks says that we have to suffer as part of repentance. Okay. So, is the disciplinary council about suffering or isn't it? President Oaks, repentance is not just making us clean, he goes on, it is about making us strong enough to resist temptation in the future. And this is another angle about why it is that excommunication is so good for the soul. Only through excommunicating members, through holding disciplinary councils, can the necessary strength be gained to resist temptations in the future. If the member comes back, that is of course.
Slide 17, and this is the final slide. When a person is excommunicated, they experience a broken heart and a contrite spirit. There's that expression again. Only through experiencing a broken heart and a contrite spirit will Jesus not only forgive our sins, but also give us the power we need to not commit serious sins in the future. Don't ask me why. It just works that way. First off, why does it work that way? That the only way you can experience a broken heart and a contrite spirit is by going through a disciplinary council. He makes that clear. There's no other way. Even though it seems to be an obvious reach as an attempt to make excommunicating and disciplining members part of the scriptural requirements for salvation by linking it to a broken heart and contrite spirit. But not only that, there's another thing that's going on, which is you have to go through this disciplinary council in order to have the strength to resist sin in the future. That's not in the scriptures either, but you got to take his word for it because this is what President Oaks says. And if you don't believe him, you might have a disciplinary council coming. He finishes.
President Oak's entire leadership session with bishops and state presidents only is based on the unstated assumption that suffering builds strength. The more one suffers as a result of sin, the more strength that person will have to resist the sin. It sounds similar to positive punishment. And once again, this positive punishment can be received and effectuated only through a church disciplinary council. I looked up that positive punishment to make sure I had the term right. There's positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment. And if you look down in the bottom left-hand corner of the chart on the screen, here's the example. A dog's behavior causes a bad thing to happen to the dog, I hope. And as a result of that, his bad behavior, the dog's bad behavior decreases. This is what excommunication and disciplinary councils are supposed to be. According to President Oaks, it is positive punishment with the hoped-for result that the member will either stop sinning in the future or at least not confess it to the bishop again.
And this is the closing slide that I made up for President Oak's leadership training session. The beatings will continue until morale improves. Sincerely, the management. Here's another one. It made me think of. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. And this is one of the reasons I'm doing this episode is so that even though you may not be able to do a lot about the Spanish Inquisition, at least you can expect it because it looks like it's coming. And it looks like this is something that has been on President Oak's mind for at least a year, if not more, and something that he may or may not be implementing right now as part of his administration. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. No, they don't. But it looks like there's a new torque in town, and that may be President Don H. Oaks.
Which leaves us with a question, who is next? There has been a Michelle Stone. She was suppressed by church leaders. There's Karen Hyatt, who was excommunicated when she refused to be suppressed by church leaders. And now Steve Pinecker is talking about somebody else in January. Who will that be? Only time will tell. And only time will tell whether this is a blip on the radar, these current disciplinary hearings, or whether they're going to continue and the bodies will continue to pile up. Rest assured that whatever happens, I'll be here to report about it.
Well, that's about all for tonight. Thank you so much for watching. Please hit like. Please hit subscribe. If you haven't yet, would you please go to radiorefreeman.org and make a donation today? If you like what I'm presenting, please make a donation. $5 a month is all I ask. If you can make that recurring donation, I would be greatly appreciative. And I want to give a special thanks to all of my listeners who have gone and made a donation already. Your donations do keep Radio Free Mormon broadcasting behind enemy lines.
Well, as I say, that's about all for tonight. Until next time, this is Radio Free Mormon signing off the air.
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