Transcription
Yo, what's up guys? We got a legend here today, Orin John, the internet's creative director. He's been behind the glow up of a lot of brands that you guys have seen in the D2C e-commerce space. He is currently uh managing partner or operating partner in a fund that's looking to to buy beauty brands, I believe, right? And then also just in general dissecting doing some of the actually the most the coolest psychological and um creative strategy dissection on the internet as far as his content goes. So, truly a fan, dude. Happy to have you here.
Oh yeah, I'm I'm stoked just to come in and chat and get into it.
Sweet. Well, I'll start off with uh one to combine. Like I said, my audience has a lot of growth operators is what a lot of us call. I look at you and I think a lot of the internet does too as being that someone who can operate in addition to just strategize. Where do you see the future for growth and creative strategist merging? And a lot of like growth agencies and boutique agencies as you know sometimes those tracks separate. And then um I'm people are asking me like what are you doing on the creative side? I'm like it's all kind of getting blurry.
Yeah. It's so a like in the world I'm in. So I do this dayto-day in consumer brands and beauty, right? And I love beauty cuz it's the fringe. Everyone and no one's afraid to do anything, right? They are the first to scale on Tik Tok shop. They're the first to do influence, the first to do brand trips. They'll spend money. It's ultra competitive. Uh and so being in that, the biggest thing that we've noticed this last 6 months or so is the organic and uh paid teams are like not separate anymore, right? It is extremely synced. And so that's been really interesting because obviously a lot of like paid people are really uncomfortable in organic a lot of organic and people are uncomfortable in paid but the asks are the same and the more sync they are the better it goes. Uh and so like that's been the primary change I think probably worth worth looking at.
Interesting. So as far as like that separation goes and I feel that too because I don't fancy myself as good as organic like my whole staple of my career is paid media from day one. I'm launching and I'm scaling. uh where it's a bit different and I see just like the skill set is vastly different in someone who came up on the organic side. Um what are you noticing I guess from the front lines as far as how they're working together or what's the separation of roles of duty?
Yeah. And so one thing that's been interesting um I was just talking to a company looking at the other day that they're incentivizing their organic team on any organic assets that scale in the ad account is like they get like a spiff. It's basically like, you know, because a lot of people are running obviously like they're trying to put a lot of their existing organic social into those accounts, but basically incentivizing that organic team to think in both lenses to create things that that may work that way. I think that that was smart actually tying it to like a goal. Um, and then the other piece is the scale of it, right? So, where it really started to make sense in my work was we have a lot of creators, right? So, for for paid social, you're we have UGC creators, right? We're going to go run ads for whatever. We're also doing that on organic, right? A lot of good beauty brands, indie brand really, has five or six creators, right? They also have multiple accounts. They have all these subs. And you're like, why are we briefing all of this separate when the voices you're getting used to on organic, the faces that represent your brand already have affinity that's going to help it succeed in the ad account. And so, it's little stuff like that where you're like, well, why not just like brief the same people with both sides of the of the equation?
Interesting. As far as like your personal like if you come in and help a business grow, do you typically set organic strategy and paid strategy together or like what's the chaining?
Yes. Usually what I'm working on it's like what did I work on inves I'm briefing both right? Uh I want and I and I'm you're still briefing some of it separate but basically like when I come do a toolkit now so a lot of what I do is I'll make a toolkit for either like a monthly refresh for a brand like hey we need new assets or it'll be a campaign we're launching a new product or you know or it's summertime or whatever it is we need to do campaign assets and it will be a combo of like here's how we're going to roll out the product so the teaser the unveil the actual launch and here's assets for each of those and briefs on that then here's like what are all the core assets we have the things we repeat we have stuff we test that's going to go on organic that ties to like your organic content pillars and it goes to ads. It ties to your common ads types. Uh but then also it's like with all that comes okay here's like retention and hook guides because that matters for both and especially for the ad teams because a lot of the ad teams like they think of hooks so aggressively not in terms of like the zeitgeist or the meta and you kind of have to have both and even like transitions and stuff. It's like okay well here's you know an analysis of the previous and so it's like a packet. I do these big packets in notion and it's like all right here's all the transition content we should try. Here's tutorials to send your editors. And to your point of like people have to do more like I feel like the strategist now like I'm not only being like you should do this kind of hook. I'm like here's the cap cut tutorial to send to the UGC girl so she knows how to do it. Oh no, you don't have a UGC girl. Okay, I will get you the UGC girl. I feel like you have to you're going farther down the chains to make sure the assets are good because it's easy. Frankly, it's easier than ever to get those people find those things, you know?
I think so too. And when I think ease now, I think AI and just in general. Um, it's changed the game for growth and creative strategists. People have asked me that recently. They were like, "What are you doing for AI creative?" And I told him, "Probably not as much as someone like you." Um, or maybe, maybe not. I don't know.
I mean, we're running AI we're doing like a like 3D stuff and stuff for launch videos, but also we have our whole so cut 30, which is like the main that's like the mid-t built out a whole toolkit for that and for my higher ticket thing. It's like a SAS that people have. It's a video database that has like we track accounts. You can search for outliers. It will automatically breaks down the frameworks of the hooks. Um, like that's a whole like I can I can screen share if that's interesting.
My audience loves screen share. It's my leveling ritual.
All right. So basically yeah so we have this this is like our internal tool um where I can go browse I can browse by formats concepts elements types of hooks account types. So I can go into formats and it's like all right cool but what are 10 shots? What are faceless? What are green screen videos? What are oneshot videos that are working?
And we go into it and it's like, all right, cool. I can now filter by all the normal stuff. You can filter by outliers. Okay, what's a one point, you know, what's a 2x outlier?
When I go into the video, I get um I get an outline, provocative opinion, you know, and then I'm getting the hook analysis, what's happening, title, what's happening, visual. Okay, no one's talking, so there's no verbal hook.
This is perfect, dude. You're actually teaching people how to critically think as you're going through it. It's like basically frameworking it too as the team can understand.
We just made the framework and this is literally how I briefed. And so I've noticed with the AI is like I can't just copy and paste this but I can go to make a twominute edit and it's a brief.
Um, and so that's so we built that. It's just an internal tool that uh Colin who's our um who's like one of my partners on he just he vibe coded the whole thing.
And it's it's all it's massively useful.
Dude, what a fun time. And that's all like included if they're in the cut 30 program.
Yes, they're cut 30. access to that and we have another one has all the basics like transcribing and stuff.
Sweet. Yeah, cuz I know like my creative team in post-production, they're a big fan of your work and how you operate too. I don't even think they knew that. So, shout out to that.
We just added in like the last the last piece. Look, you're I mean, as you know, in we're just trying to add value constantly and now I'm doing like higher this like higher ticket stuff, too. I want tools where people can be like, "All right, I'm not just getting the tools. I'm learning how to use them. I can deploy them in my org because I did this like this program and it there's a lot like that that really, you know, you know, it's credibility. Yeah.
So, is it is it made for who's the who's the program perfect for? Like a creative that's sitting in a team, someone who's an entrepreneur. What's kind of the idea?
Yeah, I guess two levels. So, like Cut 30 is perfect for anyone that wants to either be a creator or learn how to manage creators. We actually get a decent amount of people who are like brand owners who are like, I just need to know how this works so I can task somebody. Um, so we get a lot of that. Uh, and then in the one that I have that's like a higher ticket is for like people that are they're doing creative strategy in an org, whether it's for a creator, whether it's for a a brand, whether it's uh like or they're doing it freelance. It's like we're doing paid or organic strategy and we want to be a weapon at it. That's what the higher ticket one is.
Dude, that's perfect. We are we are people myself. I'm going to check that out here later. Um, dude, as far as like so you have the strategy and you have the implementation and chaining. How do you actually deploy and test um creatives and scale up? What's what's your scale up methodology?
Yeah, it was well in inside meta, it's your typical like there's testing account and then there's campaign by by product type and we are and then if we have enough traction on the product, there's a test campaign for the product and then the scale campaign for the product. But so we're I think it's a pretty typical structure for meta, but honestly I will do with whatever the media buyer wants to. I mainly just like how am I am I giving them enough assets um is key. But we're also we use a I encourage a lot of brands to test trial re stuff. Um because again if you're if any of your assets are decent like running them on your organic and seeing what works is like we run a ton of ads off of organic on Tik Tok and Instagram all the time by just putting them in the ad account, right? Uh and and we're basically I'm trying to get to the point where like 80% of the creative that's on organic would work in an ad account. And for consumer products it's a little bit different. Um, but even for I look at that with my content. I was like, man, I could probably run 40% of my content as an ad to a gated download if I really wanted to and if it was smart. And then trial reels is just like variations of that, right? I look at trial reels like if you have anything that works, people are all mad right now about creative doesn't scale the same in Andromeda. Like you can't get a million dollar ad, you can get a 100k ad. And so, but we're like, okay, that's not necessarily that bad of a thing. if I can make three variants or four variants like basically of that style and I'm just kind of iterating it on on trial reels to be like okay can I use a woman can I use a whatever and so we we try that a lot to see it if it like just gets organic interest and then don't even post domain it's just putting it in the ad account.
Trial reels is a gift trial reels accounts and then dummy Tik Toks are a gift just put a Tik Tok you just put your ads on as organic and see what gets any views you know.
I dude that's so smart so like into you some some there's some cross channel synergies there and then there's other chains that don't work like what if you have a preference in how you chain on the trial rails.
Uh, it doesn't really it doesn't really matter. I think it's mainly just like what are you trying to test you know and even with Tik Tok like dummy Tik Toks we'll do it by creator like if we start a new UGC creator on a brand make a dummy Tik Tok because then.
Uh, you can kind of see what's going to work naturally but then also you can just you can either whitelist that or you know like and it has it comes if you can test if it's going to be better from the company account or the whitelisted account. It's like little [ __ ] like that. But we are uh we're buying so much music, too. There's thousands of ads, the ad accounts of everyone I'm working with. So, it's like there's such scale. There's other people on the team that like these are all just things that are like happening that we're into for whatever period of time, you know?
Yeah.
So, it does work.
Right? Well, I feel the same exact way, too. And as far as like dummy accounts go, do you go as far as to like are you heavy on clipping or just like the general idea of clipping all tape style?
We haven't tried on a brand yet. I just started clipping. my clip accounts went live literally like yesterday. Um, for me personally, we'll see how that goes. So, that that's new. We haven't been able to kind of get that, but this is just more like, okay, for every person, give that person a Instagram or a Tik Tok. We do it more on Tik Tok, but it would work on IG. And it's just like again, it's just giving you I I'm a huge fan. We've done this so many times of testing the ad on the ad account versus the ad on the founder account or just a random creator account. And it's so funny how often the whitelist one works better on the same asset.
Dang, that's Dude, that's good encouragement for me, too. And it also takes a lot of the um what do you call it? The uh red tape out of it, too. If you're working with a creator who has high standards, which Yeah. imperson, right? Personally, I'm looking at that now, too. So, it's funny. One of the things I'm working on personally, we were working on before this is I'm hiring someone to do I'm just hiring a woman who's like a pro to just do my same content. Um, like just out of just pure curiosity. Like.
You know, I've done that before for myself. Yeah, it it works and it finds a different pocket of the market in the ICP that like same interest, same psychographic profile just by sheer nature of them being women and maybe delivering in a more feminine manner. You just find so style that's uh that's goes viral for me, but it's it's higher. It's 7525. I'm used I used to be 6040 men women on my Instagram and Tik Tok and now I'm popping like my my [ __ ] is as big as it's ever been, but it's 7525 and I'm like [ __ ] Okay. Guess you must try a bit too masculine. Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's funny. Uh, it's funny to be hyper aware of that. Like you're you're aware of that much more than other creators where I tell them their analytics and they're like, "Bro, I don't want to know. I don't want to know." Well, also I get a lot of brand deals because I reach more women marketers than the women marketing creators because I have the big following and it's 40% female. And then they don't realize that they actually end up reaching a lot more men than they think. And then so if you want to like if you want to reach that demo I'm actually one of the people to go to which is that's why I was like the L'Oreal creator for Last Stop by Southwest. It's it's funny.
Yeah, you heard it here guys. If you want to sub to women, you can get or involved and it's going to be good.
Well, not anymore apparently. So.
Yeah, his recent content run in 2024 was uh was getting on that market. No, but it's it's it's super cool and I've noticed the same thing with our brands. It just surprises you of just like looking at just the gender mix of who you're attracting. And that's even without ads. Like you're not you're not, you know, steering that in one direction just cuz you want to.
Right? Yeah.
Yep. So, I mean, do like I have like I've seen it I've seen it so many times in the info space where it's like personal brand comes in, they buy a certain methodology or course from someone and I see them just carbon copy the methodology to a whole different market. It's not a thorn in my side cuz I can't even reach that anyway, but it's always like ah it's super interesting. I saw Daniel Leslie do that with Sam Havens when I was at consulting.com. I've just seen it. I've seen it so many times.
Well, now there's a meta. We refer to as the meta like my friends and I don't know if that's the actual term people use, but the meta is like what's happening right now, you know? And uh and what's interesting now is that like so obvious we train a lot of creators in cut 30. We're on our like 20th cohort of that. And so we see a lot of like okay we train you to do one of a few styles. You find the one that you're good at and then again you do that you do a copy of an existing thing that works in your niche. But now what's sort of happening is um is basically the meta is changing kind of quick in that it's like every 90 days the types of content change. Like you can't thrive the same way as a green screen creator that you could last year. And so if you keep doing that you're basically like you blame the algorithm or whatever but everyone's doing higher produced sitdown videos now. And so I've already shifted. I'm already like I saw it. We're ahead of it. We have the tools and I'm working on it. But a lot of people won't shift their method. And now there's like you cannot not shift your method I feel like. And that's a really interesting thing for personal brands because it's harder work than most people want.
Interesting. Where where are you feeling like is the treadmill everyone's getting caught on and I'll give you an example of like when you say something like it's not about format, it's about like pillar content or something like that. Where are people focusing on that's just like it's become a hamster wheel or race to the bottom.
Yeah. Well, people are not testing. They're not testing enough styles. That's usually my key thing is everyone will they'll get the thing that works and they'll do a lot of the thing that works and they'll post it and then because they're getting their hitting their metrics, they don't care. But it's like if you're not uh basically having a couple styles where you're like testing into the next one, you're going to have these lols where that content type stops and you don't have a new one and then you're like a little bit spooked and you're trying to scale into it. This is like every creator ever. But if you're just running multiple at the same time, even though some might get less views and you're like testing your way into it, then you're like you're never going to run out and like so I'm always doing that. You look at my account now, it's like a lot of big creators will have they only put their bangers up, right? And I'm like I I truly don't care. I'm trying to test my way into my next banger. And you could literally watch the new style I have get tested from like 60k views to like 500k views, right? Like like scale it up. And and I think like you have to be doing that. And people are afraid. They're afraid to have duds on the timeline or they're afraid to not just hit the winner. And it's I think it's pure ego.
Do I do too? And I'm curious when you deal with that too. Like a I've never noticed it mattering like just from a performance standpoint, but b I've noticed some creators go back and curate and they'll delete the ones that dividend so they have just banger banger banger. Does it matter? Yeah. I think it it I think like if you were someone looking at a glance be like, "Oh, this guy all has bangers." But like I haven't seen it like disrupt the brand deal flow. I have a wide spot and I still have more deals than anyone in the space. And it's like so I think it's like it's pure overthinking. And I think people don't think about how people actually look at those accounts. So if you're hiring someone for a brand deal, you're not even looking at the feed. It's a it's coming out of a a later or one of these influencer platforms are just spitting out creators with their average stats. So like honestly, you're going to get hired from that more than it is they're going to your feed. You know, it's an interesting uh dichotomy. And if someone's going to hire you for work or DM you, they're going to DM you from a video, like not your profile. They're going to see something they like and they're going to be like, "Fuck, I need to hire this guy." And then they're going to hit you, you know?
Cool. So, from like a brand consistency, I didn't doom scroll your um account all the way to the end on IG or something. Do you care about brand evolution and consistency over time? Or are you doing like a Playboy Cardi style roll out where you delete your whole feed and drop some like new.
Yeah. Yeah, I haven't I've never like uh I've only deleted like like a handful of things for like whatever reason, but yeah, I just it's just on there. It's all all.
Because also it compels natural.
We saw that when Tik Tok like had the American ownership and everyone didn't get views for a week. I don't know if you were in the middle of that fiasco or not, but like basically everyone's views plummeted, but what happened is like my entire back catalog has just been ripping since then. I mean videos from like 24 and like basically so they were like, "Okay, we're not going to improve any new content, but everyone's still consuming and they're all just consuming old content." And so I'm like that's what I think it's worth to have that catalog. I mean I saw that I was the number one Tik Tok result for Chromehearts ESOP uh Ramova for ye for like a year you know when when this was early and it's like that is that's a huge impact on who you want to get in you know.
Dang dude that's that's pretty sick getting the Chrome arts uh getting the Chrome arts volume dude. Yeah, you do you do really well in like let's call it like streetware aesthetic creative design. Um, I noticed like one book it's been super inspirational for me and my team that you have in your back too. You can see all the notes that our team uses for like.
Bro, just archiving your own [ __ ] I tell the creatives. I was like, I wish I had every piece of design I've ever done the way that dude does.
I know, bro. Like, I want that book for myself. Maybe we can like inspire each other to make it in the future.
Yeah, I have to go to go hunt down all the trash I made when I was younger. I look around good. But, uh, yeah, man. I'm thinking like all those compilations. Like, I was looking at this one. This is like all like football, all the the soccer crests, all teams over time.
And it's like you're looking at logos, you're looking at tech. It's like who gives a [ __ ] Go look at like all the soccer teams over the last you know 200 years in a book like ah it's fire.
Dude, that is fire. It's cool to see the ones that have like leaned into more traditional like like elements and haven't changed is the ones who like hyper change every few years and try to stay modern.
It's sick. I feel like that's cool stuff to model your brand after. Like yeah my whole my desk is all kinds of [ __ ] of that. Like even this this is all like uh one of the businesses own partner like an industrial design product ed firm. is just every vintage video game, like every like actual console or whatever. And you just look at the design, the way they laid these out, and it's just like it's so like Win amp 1990s, 2000s. It's like it's inspiration you're not getting on the feed. Dude, you just you need to do like a a book in uh design like content YouTube video. I'll just sit there and buy the whole catalog that you have.
Yeah, like I have I saw some You have some teenage engineering stuff, too. Like I was like, man, I might bust these out on the pod. I just bought these little widgets and stuff. I'm back at the speakers around here somewhere and I got Yeah, I had it on the You had retweeted that video, but yeah, I just got the uh the this, you know, this joint and all the.
Oh, dude, I played with that at Momma Museum in New York recently. It's so fun.
Yeah, it's it's fun. And like I don't do anything serious with that anymore. Um, people who know my full lore, I like I have a bunch of credits on like I have I have like songs on Showtime Shameless and I did stuff for like Hasbro's bop and like I have like a whole like a bunch of music credits from like back in the day. Uh, but I don't really touch it anymore. But that was the first thing that ever made me want to be like, "Okay, I'll waste two hours on this," you know?
Dude. Yeah. No, I dude I the the only synergy I have found sometimes is I have um I bought like this play sample pad for my kids. I forget Blitop Blit Box or something like that makes a little kid sample pad and I'll just sit there with reels as I'm watching reels and sample them into my sampler.
So I was like, "All right, I'm doing like ad hooks but but into my sampler that make it so it's like semi-productive."
Yeah, well, that's why I wanted I ended up I got it mainly because of this. I know like I bought the thing for the accessory. Yeah, I could just bought the accessory, but like I'm going to in the YouTubes like do the echo or like hit the button and it's the air horn. I think it's just fun.
Please do like triggering your own fully sounds and doing live soundboard is like I think the pinnacle of content enjoyment for me if I get there. So, I got a lot. There's like we're stereotyping ourselves a certain type of hobby. I completely agree.
Yeah, I got to find ways to make it fun. Um, maybe that's that's a something I want to ask selfishly too is like uh, we talked about your thousand day IG like run and to me having worked with I'm always the behind the scenes guys and I make people do that kind of content at voracious pace but it it's like it's taxing for me to be that consistent on a platform like YouTube or IG. How did you get into a the mindset to do it and b like what were the actual challenges and what did you find?
Yeah, when I was starting it I don't know what made me stick with it when I started it. I'm always like kind of a doer but I had never made content. My wife was like, "You're crazy." Like, well, no, she wasn't quite like that. She was she was very kind about it, but I was like doing this and like, you know, was like, "Is this a midlife crisis type thing?" Um, and they were really something similar. She's like, "Are you okay? Are you trying to be an influencer?"
Yeah. And then, yeah. So, then we were in that hour. So, that arc was like hard, but I just kept doing it. I was really I I would just make little goals. I was like, "I'm not going to stop till I get a video that makes 5,000 views, which took a lot longer than I thought. But now people are always like talking about creator burndown and [ __ ] Now, I'm I'm like, I make I make seven figures off of just brand deals. like I I'm never going to stop like you know to make little Tik Toks and I got all this other benefit in my life like everything around me I was like there's I you you'd have to like physically stop me from making a video tomorrow you know.
Cool that I had a similar like trigger point too it was the first time as like our company got more successful I started approaching creators who have more pedigree than like in our the gap in our social status was just like too big and I remember I had uh uh when I met Dan Bilzerian and started working with him on his info and he wanted a reference. He was like, could I like two people? I'm like, that doesn't happen to me. I'm like, I I need a reference. I had to call Pace and be like, Pace, yo, could you vouch for me with Lazarian? He wants a reference. And I was like, I don't like this. So, to me, I always knew like the personal brand multiplier was just huge. It's like more than a 10x as far as deal flow or inbound. You can curate it, right? Um, and I think you're you're obviously getting out of it. the the one thing I see with people if they don't curate the right audience or don't know what they want, they end up like that's when the fame sets in. They're like, "Why am I famous to the people I don't even want to be around?"
Yeah. It's like a lot of this like just actually like planning and doing the things that like are exciting to you. But yeah, I'm just like my content's aligned with the value that that's in there and I'm uh and like the benefits are too high and and then like also I don't know I would like do more honestly. Yeah. It's just so I think there's just so much. This is also one of those I look at I feel like a lot of people especially in in positions that like we're in that we always feel like we see the future. We're ahead. We know what's happening. We're cooler than other people. And I felt like that my whole life I felt like I never had the resources to act on it. I was too poor. I just had a kid. There's always some excuse, right? And then this is and this time I'm like there is a there is so much alpha in taking advantage of these algorithms right now. They're giving us free attention. You still have to pay for ads. There will never be like you could argue like hey I could have that in some capacity but there will never be another moment to make you as much money as fast or to give you as much change in your life as fast as this and I'm like I'm pedaling to the meddling while I am finally ahead of one of these.
I I couldn't agree with more with what you just said. If you had to like put a number on it like building your personal brand this year as far as like the multiplier or advantage you'll have as opposed to putting off next year. What do you kind of see happening if you don't focus on personal brand now?
Yeah. So I think we've already seen it like this was the first year. Right now is the first year where I'm like man there is a lot of creators and they're really good. But that mean but they're also really scaling. I know multiple people that have really blown up like hundreds of thousands of followers in the last 6 months. So it's like it's not harder. But I do feel like at least for this era where it's like I can yap and I don't need crazy editing or designers or whatnot. I think you it's 12 to 18 months you know and then it's like you'll still be able to do it. But that's when like truly anyone like you're any director level and above person who wants to like make that jump and like really get it with some authority as an expert. I think like we're we're kind of in that last year. Um, and obviously your perspective can change, but I think that's kind of realistically where it's at.
Cool. It's sweet. That's that's kind of how I think of it too. And the only take that I have is like, okay, if AI does get to the point where they can yap better than actual humans, which seems likely, and the AI influencers will there will be rosters of creators that are AI, if it's not already happening that you're aware of, I'm sure.
Oh, yeah, it is. It's also just another content type. I look at like like traditional media figured out carousels this year. In the last nine months, ID Magazine and Business Insider, they're like, "Oh, this is something we can actually do and not suck at on social." And so that all the alpha there's gone, right? And and like but that's fine. It's just a content type. If you build a personal brand, I can still rip a carousel, right? Um, and so I feel like it's just another type. There'll be AI. It'll just be like the carousel piece. It's just like cutting down the piece of the consumption pie, but but this pie is so big. People don't understand. It's replacing radio. It's replacing television. It's replacing every website on the internet that people went to for any level of information or entertainment. All that is the TAM. And that TAM is so much bigger than the amount of creators there are today.
Dude, that's encouraging. I thank you. Thank you for saying that, too. Cuz sometimes when it feels like, like you said, when you feel like you're early, you feel like the window's closing faster than it actually is, and you're just like, "All right, well, that ad type's done." That's.
Well, I've seen it too, but I'm sure you see the way people deploy capital, right, where you're like, "Okay, cool. I have ad dollars." People are still going and doing a media buy with like Huck News or MSN or or wherever. You're like, "Okay, there is still much alpha to be had." Like, there's still agencies recommending a media mix that doesn't include like Substack newsletters or whatever. You're just like, "Okay, you know, this is there's a lot of room."
Good to know. Sweet. Then sweet. So like you're not going to quit. You have a bigger vision. Has like your content goals now changed as far as like I'm sure you're getting.
Way more opportunity than you probably even realized. Uh, that seems to be the case with any brand that blows up that I've been around too. It's just like wow I have inbound opportunity. How have your filters changed in opportunity?
This is what's really hard is uh like so yeah. So I've been a year now um at this firm that I work with. Uh and and that was an interesting opportunity, right, where like I was starting to see, oh, I can leverage making content into doing like a position I never would have considered, right? Uh and like being able to like operate inside private equity and which was interesting, but then even then like I don't know, my I'm making four or five times as much as when I did that like a year ago. And then you're like so these things compound so fast. And then you also look at like I was with Gary Vee this summer. Uh, we were in in Ken and it was like there basically like oh why aren't why aren't any of you creators doing an agency like Vayner right and you know and so you're starting to like see all the ops why wouldn't I say so it's overwhelming honestly so I'm having that's the hardest part I have is like is is seeing that longer term vision and since I I'm realizing I probably can't execute that level I don't have the virtual level foresight to that book like I'm mainly looking at like what is like per year what can I realistically do without falling apart um and this year a lot has been around scale we've hired people like I mentioned start a closer just like we're I've got growth operators now like I'm really trying to turn the corner on like the info business like and then it's like cool once that's fully flowing then look at the next piece but I you know you I feel like you can't build out that grand vision but I kind of turn that like to you you've seen these businesses scale and done so many of this like what do you like how do you approach that?
Yeah, dude, it's well, it's really interesting so I figured you'll you'll get a kick out of this. I saw you do a similar web um video earlier.
Yes.
Similar web since 2022. Um, I've been crawling and databasing using similar web built with a bunch of third party spy tools and just trying to know everything I can about the infospace. I feel like at this point I might be the most omnisient. So right now we track and repaying 21,000 courses and it's all in snowflake and I can query it. So to me, where I start is always competitive analysis and how big is not the TAM, but let's call it the SOM or the SAM of that individual niche, right?
So if you're like, yeah, I'm going to teach creative strategist, what I'm trying to do is trying to find like an 8 figure comp to let you know where the ceiling's at so you don't overscale or overexpose your own personal brand. And I see that being one of the biggest downfalls is someone gets to like, let's call it 10 million a year, 50% margin because info your cogs are almost nothing. So like you should be operating somewhere between 30 and 70%. I think um and.
If you're in that range, I've seen so many people overcale it and then it tumbles. It collapses their whole personal brand sometimes. Like when I look at Tai Lopez, he recovered from it. But he definitely I watched his team in like 2016, 2017 when we were working with him overscale to where he was like he went from like zero to 30 million a year in info, then to like 70 million plus in info and then back down to 30. and it's like this huge roller coaster ride for your organ team. So to me, there's like there's these stable points where you can build these anti-fragile brands that exist forever where you don't need to get greedy and be like how are we going to double like my personal brand exposure and whatnot. So I think like the key will be for you is there's very clearly I'll show you comps within this database and u got the gold. Yeah man, as tone who thinks about content and creators in that same way. I appreciate someone in their own niche with the same level of veracity, you know.
Yes, exactly, dude. I'm like, yes, I care about this stuff a lot and I've dedicated my whole career to it of just like going deeper than anyone in this specific area. So, I'll set you up, dude, with after this with a textbased query version of this. Um, so I don't like to just add people straight to Snowflake.
Uh, because I like I have to go find those comps. Like I looked a lot at Seth Goden's Alt MBA, which is funny. People like don't think of those gurus as info product sellers. I'm like, bro, all these guys are doing info products. Yeah.
All of them are in there. Yeah, we got to go to server. This server where I keep the dashboards is in Oregon. You can see all of our crawling stations here and all these. But this this was like a summer project. Anytime I remove myself from the operating up seat, like I've been CMO three times in the course of this company's history. Anytime I get myself out of the company, I just get to do just research passion projects. So this top trends dashboard you guys will see if you're in my group there's a 2026 version of this that's right now this is the 2025 data feed that's coming through but I've been tracking yeah I guess since 2022 it has like almost four years of compounding growth and I can sort this whole chart it's crawled through and found price point of mid tickets and low ticket front end offers and right now we're just looking at copyrightiting as a niche I'll turn the whole thing on and we'll see kind of the biggest players in the NFL space.
Copyrighting is so [ __ ] crazy. Yeah. Anyway.
Yeah. Right. Like so to me like I just roll through here and I'm like cool. So you want to run um and obviously this is pulling last 3 years. I'll just do previous year. Let's see if it's updated or actually yeah last number three years. We'll just get the whole table here. And you can just see like certain offers. Becker is obviously an accounting well maybe not obviously. They're accounting C program essentially and they sell to basically test prep.
I was I was at like a Kajjabi event. we were all at like a Lakers game or something and like the richest guy in the room was the guy who trains stay at home moms to be accountants. I was like got it. Yeah.
Yeah, you're right. Like and to me that's that's one of the comps of how I approach go to market. So I just go through here and someone's like how I how I think about creators. We think about markets first and then matching the right creator to publish them in the space. And I'm like for you I'm just like okay who is who is the current if you were to come up and be on the come up who is the current internet's creative like director okay is Warren is he faster safer have a better method they can make more money like what's the variable and unique differentiation that I can position around and then we just go at it and scale. So to me you can see our brand sub 2 pace mory that's our biggest brand our portfolio right now it's in real estate and creative finance. So like for you, we can get as niche as we want, but let's just go marketing here. I'll take all these out and we'll just do marketing advertising for second categories. And we can just see comps. So like for sure is a comp and almba, his team is great.
Yeah. And then they shut that down a minute ago and that's where like I mean look, I don't even know who the uh I don't even know who the comps are, which is good.
I'll look you up now. Now we know each other here. This is this is all I care about. And I usually correct people. See, a lot of times people in our space, they'll go to masterminds and there's I usually have this rule which is called divide by three. Like whatever someone tells you.
They're making, divide by three and that's probably actually it. But a lot of these it's or they'll just be like at peak I was at this. I'm like I don't really care at peak like what are you at now? So to me I just go through here and I know like I think legendary marketer got hit with maybe an FTC like scandal. There's certain like things that in our industry like someone gets hit and opens up a huge market opportunity cuz the number one predictor I always tell people of buying mid ticket info product is have they bought mid ticket info.
So to me these are all either JV partners or people to be aware of people that you should buy into their community and just like understand where these people came from what they tried to learn. And a lot of people like me are like chronic course buyers too of just like I want to learn something like I I just bought a $297 vibe coding class from a friend because I wanted to get better at vibe coding. So look I'm more than anything that will give me any edge I am getting. Even if it's just like core stock does not matter the price. Yeah.
Okay. Cool. Well then what's really nice is walking through here and just understanding your upper and lower bounds of like what could I sell this at and how could I position? Oh, I know that person. Oh, they're selling at that price point and running at this. So like my rough crude calculations for upper and lower bound revenue is I have about six funnel models that I understand. I benchmark them out. So I'm like cool this flow landing page is somewhere probably between 12 and 35%. And the next step is this and then it's just a math game. I approximate the high-end revenue off of the similar web traffic through a funnel point and then multiply by course price point.
So let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys I don't show this on podcast often. This is a cool one, but I just saw Orin did like a Similar Web short forum this week and I was like, "Oh my man, anyone who knows Similar Web is like in too deep on competitive market research for sure." And it's way better than Alexa, any other crawler.
Yeah, completely. And that's when that one I'm the I'm like the face of their ad for the next month or so. Yeah, it's a good sick, dude. How's their team? Do you know them? Uh, yeah, like just from this deal, everyone was super nice, but like they're really looking at now. It's like, okay, what percent of traffic is coming from AI? What terms are driving it? That's kind of the piece and that's why we were really interested in it too because it's like benchmarking that in beauty is of huge interest to us, right? And like it's very and it's interesting actually that's a fascinating topic in that like any celebrity brand has such a leg up on AI because of the way that they they crawl it now because it's basically Reddit and YouTube that's like providing most of the reference material. And so if there's a gossip Reddits and stuff like that and they're talking about the brand products, it gets so much more ranking inside of what's being searched. That might not last forever, but it's like a huge leg up for the celeb brands.
Ooh, interesting. And I've heard like I haven't heard that, but I've heard like it now like proliferating into Chachi BT queries and the more people that use that, it's pulling from Reddit and whatnot and people are being exposed.
Yeah, that's what I mean for the chachi like batch looking for a beauty product and it's trying to give you your recommendations, the the data it's pulling from is very biased towards Reddit and YouTube. And since that's mainly you're getting way more conversation around Haley Bieber than your average beauty brand, that's leads to a proliferation of her brand within that. It's a very interesting scenario.
Interesting. So this is like epically great. I try not to like say stuff I'm like based off of that with AI cloud bots. I'd set up like Reddit sweeps every day and you guys should have basically clipping armies that Yo, look that that's what people are this is that's the battle that's happening right now. I think most people don't realize I mean they probably do but like Reddit is 50% plus shills and bots and everyone I know who was like had any level of karma on there is just doing paid now. And it's like that platform is is a is a literal dead internet.
Yeah. Yeah, dude. I've we've got accused for shilling. I've had to change my Reddit strategy once, especially Pace got bigger because I used to post in our community and I wouldn't pay anyone. Um, and I would tell the mods that I'm like, "Hey, no, like I just saw a negative review about Pace. It's not true. So, I post in the community cuz our community loves us and I just told him to go leave their honest feedback." And he's like, "Shill, bread locked, like blah blah blah." So, we've had a love-hate relationship with Reddit already because of stuff like that. But to me, I just Yeah.
But it's crazy how how heavily they're weighting it inside CHBT at least is uh is a big negative because it's so gameable. Yeah. It's interesting.
Yeah. Like that's Yeah. But then a lot of these brands are afraid to go commit to doing what they have to do there because they don't want to get caught up in look at all the brands who are botting this when eventually there's whatever journalist story and it's like [ __ ] yeah. There's so many levels to it, right? And like I I've never botted like on anything like that because the risk of the the exposure risk if that were to be found out is too much for any of my brands to handle. Like it would just permanently damage trust and reputation.
But as far as like real humans and like a lot of us in this space and I imagine like for uh like cut 30 like you have a community of people probably in a platform on somewhere where where you posting them. Yes. Everyone's in Slack and everyone's in Slack right. So, like if something is really problematic for me and I post it in there, everyone loves my art. Yeah.
Right. That's a that's a way it's one of my favorite ways to actually use an info brand is to just protect the reputation of the people that I'm in there. To me, if like I really believe in the stuff that I publish and I really believe that it's a net up in the world. So, if someone messes from my brand online, it hurts me too. It's like my own reputation. What's lucky at least at least what we've had with cut 30 so far is it's like so much we have a good community there and it's like everyone's so positive and and promotes it so well and uh and it's just keeping yeah and also it comes from that's one of the benefits of the personal brand I've given up so much free value that if someone buys something they don't even do it they're just like look honestly I'm just paying you back for the 400 YouTubes like it's funny how that works.
That is funny how that works that's the best feeling too uh cuz yeah like there's the alternate flip of the coin where even I feel like Horosi A few other people have said this and it's become commonplace of just like well if the free value is so good just imagine what the paid looks like. I I rarely find that people actually think like that. It's more like the reciprocity debt like you spoke to that's created from just the free being amazing. It still works. It's just like psychological.
Even even just the access just like okay the ability to have it as a conversation is uh is really really interesting. But even we're looking at like the one that I'm doing now where we have like a placement back end too. Uh, and I just feel like it's getting so competitive in that like, all right, cool. Now we have the SAS and you have the placement and you know the people are getting like rock dialed. Uh, which is a different era. I've got a lot of people creators launching courses for the first time who just had no idea and then they don't want to do they don't want to manage closers. They don't want to like yo you got every one of these obstacles is like the you're going to have to go through like the obstacles the way in every single piece of this and and it's so funny people thought they think it's going to be easy money you know.
I do I totally agree as far as Yeah. and just well it's cuz a lot of people in our space make it easy to like scale this up and they're like we're we're all marketers so you make the opportunity look as sexy as it can but to me like that's where I take our complexity to me it's a joy to have an in-person sales team now like half of our half our org like about 80 to 100 people are in sales in our our floor and I love it we're trying to in-house them now and bring them in they used to all be these remote closing teams but they are like the lifeblood of how an info business scales out everyone on the team now from sales reps to growth operators came through to 30. And so it's just like everyone's from the community, everyone's just like, "Oh, this is such a, you know, it's like, oh, you're a sales rep who make great content. Awesome." Like, you like, "Let's go." Yeah.
Dude, and that's perfect. And then they can sell with conviction, too, of the stuff. Like, look, man. I don't get it. Like, I'm telling you, I went through Orange program and I was successful. Like, what are you not understanding? That's a cool feeling. Yeah. A lot of sales reps you'll find if you just hire higher guns with a lot of like, let's call it quote-unquote high ticket experience under their uh they just have more bad habits than anything. It's Yeah, it's an interesting business. It's so funny contrasting that with just like the pure like the brand deals and all the other stuff, you know.
No, for sure. And like you said, like you've you've identified it, right? It's like to me it's a cool there's so much more benefit than um let's call it the enterprise value or like any sort of adjacent um objectives that you have. You get the cash flow, you get to teach and do what you clearly love and you get to build a team around it that also makes money too, which is cool. So Oh, for sure. Yep.
Well, dude. Um, where where does where does Scott ask about personal life, too? I know you said you mentioned a wife. Do you have kids? Yeah, I do. I have one.
So, how do you set up your personal brand workflow? Um, and like chaining of it. And I'll give you example like for Pace, we do documentary style. We follow everywhere. We cut from long to short. Um, like I know Hormosi like he told me he works for out of Twitter. Twitter is like how he bounces ideas and then he'll do batched content like later at night. What's your style and flow that's worked with?
Oh, yeah. So, well, basically like there, so we have YouTube and short form separate. Uh, anything that's YouTube becomes a carousel on short form that promotes back to the YouTube. Sometimes it'll be two and like that's been a great flow for me. It's like very obvious when you go to the page. Like all 70% of the carousels are just a recap of the YouTube or the value from the YouTube then pushing to the long form. Um, and then all the short forms like is is separate where I'll test some stuff now on like I was just testing a new pillar like a new style of content like these. They're like two-minute videos and I tested it on trial reels. I tested on more on Tik Tok and I was then I brought it over to IG which is like my main money maker. But um but that's all we're not like doing long to short doing tweets or validation or anything. I I am like we have a content plan for short. We have a content plan for long. We're adjusting it. I I'm working on that plan like all the time. We're we're adjusting like you know like basically every every day something's moving lightly, you know, but based on what's happening in the zeitgeist or whatever. But we have like months worth I'd say about 90 days worth of like stuff. like I have like all the video ideas or scripts or whatever and we're like just adjusting piece by piece and now I'm doing that with like I have a YouTube strategist my pay who's awesome skyexian and then I have a uh like my management and like the team that works for me are all really involved in my content of like okay like I had a video rip on YouTube about Bad Bunny that was the idea of like one of the girls on my management right and it's like we're all pitching into that okay that's involved at this time you know let's do this here what and so it's a it's kind of a group effort but it's like literally every day.
Sweet so it Sounds like it's collaborative and um free flowing as far as idea generation goes and just like you guys I have a huge list but it's pillars based right the so and to give some context on like the pillar scenario for for content it's like okay you have basically three to five styles of content on your short form account and you do at least one of those a week right and so I do like my core pillar that's like more of a top of funnel pillar is like I I do twice a week I have another top of funnel pillar I do once a week and I have my like lower stuff that's usually once a week and I'm filling those slots and I have two brand deal slots each week on short form. And so basically it's like cool seven slots each week what like how is it mapped to the pillars and then we have as long of an idea queue as possible of for each of those and then if one starts to not work cuz we measure those monthly we have like idea you can change it or iterate it or do better on it like I had a pillar stop working that's why we launched a new one right as you bring in a new style and build it up.
That's so unique almost no one maybe no one I've ever heard of has measured the let's call it the format or the pillar in isolation people are just like oh that creative didn't work ignoring ing entirely.
Yeah, we this is this is something we teach in cut 30 and is now what I roll out to brands specifically because you have to do it. I feel like you have to do it like this. You have to measure carousels to carousels. I have to measure my middle of funnel content to my other middle of funnel content and then look at that in context of okay is it really middle of funnel or is it am I getting mid views but high followers and then you have to look at it month to month because it's like guys is changing and be like okay what am I am I changing the hook am I changing the like even what we change we have basically we either change our production value like we change our hook or we like reform it entirely and then like that's basically your tools to work with and if you have a pillar that stops working and you try who do hooks and you try a new production value and that's basically two months of trying to make it work if it doesn't it's gone.
Dang, dude. I might have to go through this course and content myself. So, you're mapping the content pillars to this stage like Bofu, Mofu, Tofu essentially, too. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because And we want like even now I'm doing more top of funnel content than usual and like and so like and it depends on where you're at in your brand. A lot of people like if I was just revenue maxing right now, I wouldn't be doing any top of funnel, right? I could just be doing I just be hitting my existing all focused on existing followers. I know at first like my carousels hit 80% existing followers. All my videos are at least 50% new. And so you have to like, you know, find that ratio. It's different by brand. So yeah, I'll send you this. I have like a document and we have it and even with the AI like we have um Excel has agent mode. So this is all in Excel and it's all all the data from it and agent mode is just telling us like oh this is it will even the breakdown like I guess it's just standard deviation you know you're like okay.
This will actually make content more fun like if I see the numbers in there I'm like okay yeah we'll do it it's not just that this is how you have to get to the proof of CMOS like you want to work with the brand teams I'm like we need a system you're everyone's always quant what do you quantify on social media how do you set goals for the team I'm like okay well like you have pillars the pillars map to a stage in the funnel these pillars either increasing or it's decreasing and then you can look at it at the macro is our whole account decreasing or increasing and what's the standout out and then all of a sudden a CFO or a CMO is like okay well at least I'm looking at numbers you know at least I I can quantify oh this is what they're changing this is how they're reporting on it so that's been like my whole system that I brought into these brands which is and like why we're doing it like obviously like a private equity level super cool.
So if someone doesn't have any content pillars working for them at all where do they start is there like a list of pillars you have them try and just figure out Yeah, so basically look at like a pillar is basically a format plus a topic and by format I mean green screen sit down yap vlog you know oneshot carousel. So basically you have your types of content and then you have your idea. Okay, we're a roofing company so we're going to do roof installs. We're going to do different types the types of tile. We're going to do meet the team whatever like or like you know work day. And so it's like okay that format plus that idea is a pillar and you basically you start with three.
And you need to make you need to make a post every week for each three do that for a month. Now you have data then you measure it against each other and begin improving. So that's a pretty straightforward exercise that basically any brand can execute.
That's super super actionable for me. I can already hand. So you do month reviews of the pillars and then add a new pillar and if the one doesn't Yeah. in biscuit. So we have like a format you fill in at the end of every month it's like okay we're keeping this pillar the same because it's doing great. We're um we are this pillar is doing bad so we're going to do X to try and fix it you know or we're swapping this this pillar out. And uh and so then you kind of know okay well we tried this last month and you see the and because you have to do anything four to six times on short form to determine if it works or not. There's just too many outlying factors. And so that's why we're always like you got to give it the month of like you can't be like oh we tried two hooks it doesn't work. It's like that's not the case.
All right, note to my team we're doing orange style like content because it mine like so far has been half fake. This is technically a pillar like me interviewing my driven 100 people I want to learn from pillar like it works for me seems to be working for my audience. It's leading to revenue on opportunities.
But if you were like okay I want to get more views like we do this most short form. Even if you're on long form like okay I want this to get more views. It's like all right are we doing a are we doing a [ __ ] a thumbnail style change? Okay, this month I'm going to do this style thumbnail for four times and we're going to see if that increases the click rate or whatever it is, you know, and if not you're like, "All right, let me do a production change. I'm only going to do these in person." Okay, does that increase my watch rate? And then you like, "All right, I'm going to do this as a it's seven questions only, and I do this type of intro." And if you test that four times, and all of a sudden you're like, "Okay, I'm iterating enough that like I'm actually moving my base live up."
Sweet. Is that part of the joy for you, too? It's just like raising the average of whatever it used to be. Oh, yeah. I just love [ __ ] winning, you know, like and just anything I could turn into a formula, right? anything where I'm like I can prove it and like okay and then we can make a decision and then I can then enable someone to do that. I love that [ __ ] I think in frameworks it's like my superpower. Yeah.
Cool. I can tell dude like everything mapped I can tell there's just like mental models everywhere for you of like how you're treating life. Well, that's also the only way you can train people. I learned that the hard way. Right. I started as a designer. Eventually I worked my way up to like a CMO and I realized that a lot of that is managing creatives and managing creatives is really really hard because then none of them think like that. So if you can give them here's this system and here's a system with which you can explain the creative things you want to do and justify them then they're so empowered and I had to learn that as a manager.
Interesting. Okay, let's stay there for a second because managing a creative team is no longer like we have a creative director reports in our VP of marketing now and he manages the post-production team, graphic team and social um organic teams. What is if there's like one operating or managerial tool that you could recommend for us to like install? What would it look like or weekly meeting? What what's essential? Yeah, I mean look the way I used to when I ran it at at brand the way we had it was uh like well like okay break this down basically every week it would be like we have the Monday meeting or whatever it was and uh all the tasks like marketing is a services or you have to you're asking for ads you're asking for this creative that creative so we would log all that it was click up at the last or I used it doesn't matter could be a sauna could be whatever and it's like cool is there a form where people can submit that and they can get the whole brief and that gets assigned everyone can see what what who has what and then we would do a lot of this like minor reporting so my last or I had like the events team, I had the design team, I had the content team, and then we had the actual core like marketing paid team. And so like each of those four leads had team members. And it was like, "All right, we can see what's assigned, what's on everyone at any given time." And at the end of the week, I'm asking each of those people to be like, "Okay, what was what what from your team, just go through that list, give me the list of like what got done, what's on the docket for next week, and then what the blockers are." And if they're identifying those blockers every week and they're giving the list to who accomplished what, they are very readily seeing, oh, this person isn't pulling their weight or oh, I actually like this blocker from sales is still there. Can executive like please [ __ ] call it out. And so just giving that process of enablement for their creatives uh so that they had some structure, but then pretty much giving no other structure like I'm not making you go to a bunch of meetings. I'm not making you input a bunch of [ __ ] [ __ ] but you have to just follow the like Monday the track it the Friday report like like just giving that level was really helpful.
Cool. Sweet. How about bonus systems or incentives for creatives? Uh that I've struggled with that over the years. I like with content teams. I feel like it's really easy when you do just the pillar system. It's probably why we have it where I'm like look are we I don't not about views, not about whatever. What is the metric we're looking for? We're looking for shares. We're looking to increase our top of funnel. Is it better? Is it better by 15%. All of a sudden I can treat that the same way I treat any other goal. It's just like over those metrics. So a lot of times I'm trying to bonus them on that. Like I mentioned after I saw this [ __ ] the other day where I'm like about creative scaling in the ad account. I'm like great. I love spiff based systems for creatives too if you're not used to getting extra money. And so you're just like great like give them something to lapse their teeth onto. Yeah. That's always the the hard part with designers, videographer, anyone who's not actually tied to the end asset. It's like I'm trying to tie everyone to an asset if at all possible like to the asset scale to whatever. But if you can Yeah. It's not a I mean most of the designers ever worked for me like are not weren't on a bonus program, you know?
Yeah. No. Yeah. How have you tackled that? Well, so here here's what I do and I come at it from a media buying perspective. So, I'll give you an example. This is an old trouble board for when I ran Media. Similar to you, like I don't like shooting people down. And I love creative teams. So, anytime someone has an idea, I'm like, "That's a great idea. Backlog that into the trouble board." Um, and everything sits into ideas. And then during the Monday meeting, I'll drag and prioritize two or three ideas that we want to take action on up next. And then traditionally what I've done is my teams have grown like a consulting.com I had different color designation tags in Trello for edits and I would encourage them I was like cool when media bar launches it goes into in progress and then on the next meeting we review and then we're going to live sort into add wins and add losses here and then that color tag associated with the post editor would throw it in and if they won I dup the card out move it back to ideas and I'd be like cool someone recut that then like that creative worked and now like anyone else can recut that idea and try to move it into wins and then $100 spiffs for uh wins that sit above row baseline.
Yeah, exactly. And the spiffs on it's funny so many uh the rorowass now is like it's like where it's like get scale is always always our spend is our biggest problem. Once I get spend I can we can iterate into rorowass. Uh, but you actually interesting thing you brought up there we talked about at the beginning is that whole thing where like people are sharing stuff in Slack. So one thing that we've been working on recently is trend because the hardest part everyone has is they're like okay we need to do this thing quick. No one on the team has bandwidth has to go right now. And so we've been trying to get uh what we call quick term creators cuz basically like it could never happen internally. No one ever has the time like maybe you get lucky but it's like who can we get like which of our UGC or whatever are like if we give you an assignment what is the rate that you will guaranteed to have us back an asset in like 36 hours. And so if you get one or two of those people and then the team basically has unlimited access to those folks like at that rate if they want to use it have a good idea. That's been something we're like trying to piece together now. We have like our first person in that I I think is a lot of teams should do because it just gives you the ability to be like, "Oh, I need that thing and it's hot right now and get it done."
Dude, that's more encouragement for like I've been playing around with that same concept. It's a group thread out of Slack that I just call bounties edits for bounties. And I put I put an Apple Pay number that I'm willing to pay for an asset and the time I need it turned around. They can just grab it. That's probably better to have a bunch of people in there. They can just grab it. That's uh Yeah. Fire. But but we need to have you need to have the stability to like really issue like issue those things out because there's so many of these that like it's no one's going to grab it and like how can we just get it done.
Yeah. Right. Especially like on the weekends and you know it's out of scope and I feel like bad about I'm like I know you're doing I do know but there's but it's funny like I always feel bad about I'm sure you do too like I want to hit this person on Sunday but there's like a lot of creative people that are like oh I'm gonna get $250. I don't give a [ __ ] Like what's I just feel like you hit me anytime. You're like okay you need those people like identified right? Yeah.
Yes. Yeah, you're right dude. Sick. All right, I'm going to keep doing that. It's We're on the edge of creative briefing here now. Advance. I don't know if it's degenerated creative briefing, but it's certainly like this Blitz Creek style that I like to play cuz like creative velocity, I'm known for that like the adbine world because you have unlimited shots and like you said with trial reels, it's like cool algorithm self- selects the stuff out so you don't see my losses a lot of times with ads. But on organic feed, it can be a little different. Well, it's been good to see that like I have this more especially since we started doing info products where it's like everyone's so aggressively about like making money and uh and and everyone's like it's like double the budget all that all that [ __ ] you know all the stereotypes but it's been good to bring that attitude into the creative side cuz even now like I had this conversation with the ecom team the other day where I was like we're getting the roast is like 37 on this product we're working at I'm like we didn't we're spending what why didn't we double the [ __ ] spend why aren't we spending more every day why are you not pouring more [ __ ] creative like do you want to be poor like what the [ __ ] and so funny that attitude is so not pervasive in like normal you No. Yeah.
Like what? What do you mean, sir? Yeah. But I'm like I'm I'm looking at this math. I was like, look back at napkin math, not your snowflake level equation. But I was like, there's no reason. This is spending like, you know, spending 17k in a day. This should eas this should be able to spend 80k and then be at our normal row level and like we're really [ __ ] scaling, but no one has the balls to push the giggle button. And like that's it's interesting to like have that mentality in info. We all have that mentality. In ecom, like that is not, you know. Yeah.
Yeah. There's not so much add a zero uh which is like a whole very like okay incremental like add your 10% do the whatever you know it's like button now I've seen it happen to info so many times I'm just like yeah like what's the like double Yeah, right. It's like they're like what do you mean like add a zero to the daily budget like we don't have any more creatives I'm like yeah know the anxiety will help you figure it out.
Yeah, too funny dude well I'm tough hour I have I have a date with the wife that's the only hard cut off I have here but it's important I want to honor that but dude Dude, like genuine really enjoyed this. I'm going to hook you up with the access I told you about after and I'm going to get my team in jump 302 or cut 30 rather. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'll shoot you some info on pillars and stuff, man. We'll connect. I appreciate it, brother. All right. Sweet, man. I appreciate you so much. Cheers.