The Basement: Bryce Zabel | Dark Skies and Hollywood UFO Deals

Today, we're talking with Bryce Sable. He created five prime time TV series, ran the Emmys, and was a CNN correspondent before his Hollywood career.

A CNN correspondent who switched to writing fiction? That's not a career change. That's a lateral move.

In 1996, Bryce made an NBC show called Dark Skies. It was about a secret government coverup of UFOs. I remember the show. And it's amazing how many things it got right 30 years ago. And while he was making it, the cover up came to him. Men who said they were Navy intelligence showed up at his house and his office. They wanted to feed him real secrets to write into the show.

Yeah. When the government shows up at my door, all they want is back taxes.

Yeah. Join the club. Today, we're covering his career, his books, and his new podcast, which asks whether the government has been hiding the truth about UFOs inside our movies for 70 years. And there's one more thing those men asked him to do: meet a stranger at a cemetery at midnight. Wild story. After our talk, I'll come back for a quick analysis of our conversation. Let's go down to the basement. Hey, you can watch the Y Files on Spotify. New video episodes every Monday and Friday. And premium subscribers get fewer ads, which means fewer interruptions when things start getting weird. Bryce, welcome to the basement.

Hey, it's great to get in the basement. I mean, uh, this I want to thank you so much for letting me into this special place to talk about all these things we're going to talk about. It's a great set, folks. I mean, this is really wonderful. It's really

I appreciate that.

It's It's great. And, you know, I know you're you're just starting the basement, so I'm really happy to be in the in the inaugural class of these people. So, thank you.

You are.

It's a very small fraternity.

Yes. But growing.

But but growing. Unless this is our last one. We'll see.

Um, how are Patrick and Einstein doing? I was wondering.

That's Whoa. There's a call back. Well, uh, the truth of the matter is uh, those are my uh endangered desert tortoises that we have. And uh, that's I mean, this is amazing. I'm I'm reeling from the the thing because um

uh, we don't have them anymore. One of them ran away and and and one of them died, but they've been replaced by uh two other turtles, uh Wendy and Lilith. So, uh, the guys are gone.

And the women are in.

Okay.

And you know, it's I'm not I don't think of myself as a responsible pet owner, per se. Um, my son's excellent at it, for example, but not me. And uh, my wife Jackie and I, we say endangered desert tortoises are good because half the year you don't have to do anything but put them in a box, right?

That's all you do to them?

Yeah. You just put them in the box and hibernate them and then the other half of the year, just, you know, get give them some cut up zucchini and some lettuce and let them let them party.

How long do they live? Long time, right?

So long that um it'll be my grandkids probably that end up uh having to deal with them.

Wow. I'm sorry. One ran away.

He maybe he's happy. I mean, that's what we like to tell ourselves, you know, because they do they can burrow. They can get under our fence. I think that's what our original fence that one got away. And the other one, it's a sad story, and I I don't I don't know why I would tell it here, but I will. Um, during the um uh, the COVID uh pandemic, we had um I always used to put every year when they came out of hibernation, I would get some kind of coconut uh core kind of thing that you'd spread around and uh, it was all ground very nice. It was a cushy landing for them, right? I liked it. But during the pandemic, they said, "We can't get that anymore. Here's our new supplier." And so I put that stuff out. It had larger pieces in it. And uh, frankly, it got stuck in his throat.

Oh no.

It's terrible. It's just the worst thing in the world. And now that I've relived it, I don't know if I can recover during this uh broadcast here. Uh, that's

that's a tough one.

Losing a pet is is hard. It is hard.

Sometimes harder than losing a person.

Yes.

Um, if you think I should have been smarter about that, but you know what?

I've been there, too.

Yeah.

Yeah. I had outdoor cats for a while until until I had two fewer cats and then it was no more outdoor cats. Was living in the Hollywood Hills at the time and my neighbors were saying, "You can't let your cats out here." I was like, "Ah, they've been outdoor cats for years. They lasted 3, 4 weeks."

Yeah.

And that was it. No more outdoor cats.

Well, so we've clearly established and we're less than 5 minutes in that both of us should not be trusted with pets.

Can't be trusted. Okay.

I can't be trusted with children either.

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So, we've got broadcast journalism. How do you end up on TV as a movie critic?

Well, okay. I didn't start as a movie. I I was a a I went to school at the University of Oregon. Go Ducks. Very good football team. All in favor of them. And I went to journalism school. And at some point during journalism school, you have to sort of pick what what what's your thing. So, I went with broadcasting. And uh, I ended up getting a job at the um at the hippie radio station uh in Eugene, Oregon. And um, that was a good gig. I mean, I that's the first time I ever talked about UFOs in public. I sort of covered the Travis Walton uh story from from afar, if you will.

Wow. So you were on air?

Yeah. Yeah. I was the morning guy uh and and that thing, but then I got hired at the TV station. Okay. So I became an anchor reporter in Eugene and um, I ended up also doing the weather there and the movies because the thing is in a small market, it's like you you say to yourself, well, who does movie reviews here? And the answer is, well, nobody. You go,

I'll do them.

Right.

And you know, then you get to do them. I remember reviewing Alien was one of my first uh movies to review, but mostly, you know, anchor reporter kind of thing and and that was a a great gig. And and then, you know, I came to I I did a short tour of duty in in Arizona in Tucson and then came to LA as the first CNN correspondent there. And and I got to tell you, as as you well know, uh, the news business is so interesting because uh, if you're covering news, you are meeting thousands of people, just one person after another. Every day is just crowded with fast getting to know you. And I found that um, a lot of times you were either meeting people on the best day of their life or the worst day of their life. U sometimes in the middle, but often on those extremes. And it really taught me a lot about drama, comedy, all the things that I use now in in a in a Hollywood script that I might write.

Right. I hadn't I had considered that, but that's true. Um, so how do you get to sitting with Carl Sagan talking about Voyager?

That's a trippy, wonderful memory for me.

Well, how did you get picked for that?

Okay, here's the thing. Uh, I was the uh CNN correspondent and uh, the way these things work, you know, you you uh jobs come and go because the person who hired you comes and goes, right? So the the the news bureau chief at CNN got fired and so I knew my days were numbered and and they were. And I ended up at PBS in Los Angeles working on an investigative news magazine called Newsbeat. And uh, and and again, it was a sort of a nightly uh 30-minute, 60 Minutes kind of, it was 30 minutes instead of 60 Minutes kind of thing. And I would do one story a week and uh, I I I I noticed that nobody was really, a lot of the people there were not thinking about space and I always think about space. So I was like, who's your space person here? Well, nobody. Well, I'll do it, right?

Like the movies.

Yeah.

I'll do it. Just raise your hand and and volunteer. So I did and and um, so I got to cover things like uh, the the early space shuttle uh stuff and also the Voyager. And and Voyager, of course, was the the first unmanned thing that we sent that went out of the solar system, but on its way out, it did a short tour of duty past Saturn. And um, I believe this is the Voyager 2 that uh that I'm talking about at this point. I covered Voyager 1, I think, at CNN. But anyway, two was on its way out. And there was going to be a close encounter, if you will, with Saturn. And this is uh, and again, I'm just going to have to date myself. I mean, I I used to be the youngest guy in the room when I went to Hollywood. Now I'm probably the oldest guy in the room, but that's that's life, right? Anyway, so the year before I started working there, Carl Sagan had basically owned the station at at KCT in Los Angeles because he was doing Cosmos.

Oh, he was doing it out of there.

Yeah, that's where he recorded all of this. Wow. So, when I came to work there, it was like, oh, yes. You know, they didn't have plaques for Carl Sagan or anything, but everybody knew that he had put them on the map. It was a it was a pretty big deal. So, um, when they were about to have, uh, the the the encounter, uh, I pitched them that they should do something called Saturn and Beyond. It would be sort of covering the live flyby and then talking about the future of space and that kind of thing. And uh, they said, "Well, that that's good." And I said, "And we'll ask Carl Sagan." And cuz I thought the guy's got to owe KCT something for putting, you know, for putting him on the map like that. And so I just called him up and said, "You want to you want to do this thing?" And he said, "Sure, I'll do it." So with that in mind, and he he became part of that show, but here's the sort of the my favorite year part of it. Um, I was an on-air reporter and kind of a substitute anchor, but the main anchor was a guy named Cleat Roberts. And Cleat was sort of a mentor of mine, an early news mentor, right? And uh Cleat was the most respected journalist in in Los Angeles at the time. I mean, he he'd done it all. And he was toward toward the end of his career. And and we would often sit on the set before we would go on and sort of, you know, just catch up and talk. And I was out there covering things. And he was stuck behind the anchor desk in his opinion, right? He he remembered the good old days. And and he was such a great guy. And he goes, "You know, you remind me of myself when I was your age." Which is the most lovely compliment any famous mentor could ever say to you. You know, that was lovely. So, I was producing Saturn Beyond for Cleat to star in and uh, I mean, to host, not to star in, uh, but he was going to be the host. And about three days before we were due to go on, I mean, I wanted to anchor it, but whatever. I was the producer. Three days before I'm about to, you know, we're going to produce this thing. Cleat ends up in a contract dispute with KCT and he says, "I'm not going to host that thing. Forget it. If we don't have a deal, I'm not doing it. Let Bryce do it." And he wasn't in a real contract dispute.

He just threw that to you.

He threw it to me.

Oh.

It's the greatest, lovely thing. So anyway, this story is kind of intriguing because um, we get through the the show and you know, you know what it's like. You're a you're a host and by a host, not only you hosting the show, but you're sort of hosting the event, right? So Sagan comes on, we we talk live about the Saturn and the space program and exploration of the solar system and all this stuff and then the show's over. It's like, well, thank you very much. He's a lovely guy. He shakes hands with the crew. It's all that. And I say, you know, uh, I'll walk you to your your car if if you'd like because I'm the host, right? I'm hosting him. And so, uh, he had to get to JPL to do some kind of interview, I think, for Nightline with Ted Koppel or something. So, we walk out there and, um, and we, as we're walking out there, I see his car. I'm I'm driving a Datsun B210 at this point, right? Which is not the sexiest car around. This guy has some kind of uh foreign roadster convertible. I thought, "Wow, that's so cool. I would love that." And I don't know why I said this, but I just said, "You know, Dr. Sagan, I have a question or two about the whole UFO subject."

Uh oh.

And he suddenly looks at me and he goes, "Yes." You know, with that kind of, "Sure, please go on." And I just said, "Well, listen. Um, I just know that you've said many times that the universe is teeming with life, and yet at the same time, you're not a believer so publicly in UFOs because you say the distances are too great that they couldn't possibly be here. But at the same time, you've talked about how uh an alien civilization could be so in advance of us that, you know, we'd look like primitives. So, how is it that you don't consider the fact that if the universe is teeming with life, some of them are a million years in advance of us technologically and they understand physics better than us or they have different lifespans. Why Why don't you consider that they might be here?"

The stones on you.

Wow.

Well, I was young. What's he, you know, whatever.

Wow. I'm glad you What did he say?

Well, he he just um he well, I mean, he looked at me like, and your point is? I said, well, no, I mean, you know, I I was trying to be nice and and and all that and we had that back and forth um for about 15 minutes and the the specific answer to your question, what do you have to say? I wish I could remember the exact quotes, but he stuck with this point of view, which was um, nobody's coming here. Uh, that's not how it works, was in essence. And I said, but that's an opinion, right? But but you you're saying that the UFO UFO world doesn't make sense because they deal in opinions and not facts. Well, isn't that an opinion, too? You know, I I was a little I was I was probably crazy, but he took it well enough, right? I mean, we had a nice back and forth and about 15 minutes in, he he looks at his watch and he goes, "Well, I'm due at JPL." and he got in that lovely roadster of his and motored off and I waved at him the last time I saw him. But listen, the guy was brilliant. Um, I think he was wrong about UFOs.

Well, this is the 80s. When you asked him that question at the time, were you aware that he had a bit of an arc?

Yes.

That he had evolved.

Yes. And and I I didn't know his what you're referring to that in his early career, he was well aware of UFOs. Thought aliens might possibly have come here to explore or something.

Absolutely. Great point. And while I was aware of that, I wasn't aware of it enough to sort of call him on it. Right. That would have because he certainly knew more about his career and life than I did at that point.

Um, so I stuck with sort of the the more esoteric part of it.

But I did kind of get my revenge on that. Uh, you know, I did a TV series for NBC called Dark Skies, and it took place in the 1960s, uh, during an alien invasion, and we can talk more about that because that has something other interesting things, but here's the I I want to save the good.

Of course. Here's the Sagan angle. It had all these real characters in it. So toward the end of the season when NBC had told us, well, you know, you're probably not getting picked up again, so uh, just, you know, do whatever you want. And and Columbia TV, which was producing it, said, you know, do whatever you w whatever you want, but don't spend a dime more than your budget. Okay. So my partner Brent Friedman and I said, um, okay, well, what do we want to do with this? And so in our final two episodes, we introduced uh, Carl Sagan as a character. And we our whole series took place at Majestic 12, the the guys that were in charge of the coverup. And so we made Sagan the chief scientist of the Majestic 12 coverup in kind of an homage to Donald Menzel, who was the earlier uh debunker, right? Who who everybody thought he was put in quotes.

Yes.

Because his name's on the Majestic 12 documents.

Yes, it is.

Right. So, we made him a guy that got picked up by Majestic 12. And he's all pissed off because they've kidnapped him, basically. And they say to him, you know, you're in no danger. You're in no danger at all. But if you'd really like to know what's going on, uh, we can tell you, in which case, we'll keep driving and we'll we'll bring you in and we'll show you what's going on. But if you need to get out right now, that's fine. And we'll pull the car over. The choice is entirely yours, doctor. And so he he made the deal with the devil. He said, "I'll if you'll tell me everything, I'll be your debunker." And that's what we said about him.

And I think Sagan made that deal, too.

I I don't think we were wrong. No.

I think we were right. I think if you really track him, uh, it sounds to me like you have. So if you track that career of his, you do say there is some inconsistency between where he starts and where he ends.

Right? And that shift, the timing coordinates with his rise in fame as well, which is very interesting.

Yes.

Like his exposure increased.

Um, Dark Skies, your your books, especially Adamant, like almost like you have a crystal ball. Was it's like we picked a racehorse that came in.

Yeah, it certainly is. Um, last thing on on journalism.

Yeah.

You were award-winning investigative journalist. You have a you have a favorite story.

Well, the one I won the awards for um was uh has nothing to do with UFOs or paranormal or any of that. Uh, space was my beat, but I covered a lot of other things. And we did a a story uh, it was called The People Versus Dr. Maniah, I believe, is the one that we won the awards for. And that was just one where we found a doctor, an eye doctor who patients would come in and um, he would tell them they had a cataract and and uh, charge them for it. And they'd already had cataracts, they've already had the surgery and stuff. He would just tell people whatever he had to tell them to get them to uh, have the surgery and uh, and charge them for it, even if there was no need for surgery. And so that was a pretty good, that was one where I got to play the Mike Wallace role where I was chasing Dr. Maniah down the sidewalk going, "Dr. Maniah, isn't it true?" You know, that kind of thing. And uh, so yeah, but I I will say this, investigative reporting uh is such a valuable thing and I I'm my hat is off to everybody who's doing it about the UFO topic for sure, but all on everything. I mean, think investigative reporting speaks truth to power. It holds people accountable. It's a really good thing. And certainly the u the ability that people have to be a good investigative reporter uh is is so valued right now. I mean, we we could use more of them and frankly, it's expensive. That's what was so brilliant about that year and a half where I got to work at Newsbeat. We were doing it felt like doing the Lord's work, right? Because you got instead of doing at CNN, I would do three stories in a single day.

Wow.

But at PBS, I did one story in a week. And so that allowed me to do all the great stuff that you do as an investig you what does an investigative reporter do? You pick up the phone, you call people, you talk to them, and after you and you write it down, and then you look at it later and go, "Hm, interesting." And then you call somebody else up and you say, "Can I come over and talk to you about something?" And then when you're finally getting it all done, you put them on camera. And then you cut it up and you give it to the people. So yeah. Uh, I I'll I'll only say this about it. Um, the things I learned uh working at that PBS show Newsbeat have been so valuable to me in in terms of all the work that I've done since. And there's nothing I have done since that I didn't learn something that that benefited me from which like like even on on creating a TV show, excuse me. One of the things you want to be able to do is make sure it sounds authentic. Well, how do you make something authentic? Do you make something authentic because you write a movie say about lawyers because you've seen a lawyer show? That's not authentic. Authentic is to go talk to lawyers or doctors or whatever. So what what investigative reporting teaches you is yeah, don't get your information off the off the internet these days as a primary source. Create your own primary sources first. That's why I respect some of the people that have done uh some some work in this. My first need to know partner Ross Coltart has certainly done some excellent work on this and George Knapp, you know, I think anyone who cares about this topic is just in awe of what George has done.

He's the best to ever do it.

He's phenomenal. And so I I think those guys have really helped take us. Um, well, look, Ross gets his own accolades for whatever. Let's focus on George for a second because George goes back uh and and and and right here in Las Vegas where we're recording. George didn't take no for an answer. He has an incredible memory, but he also asks people questions. He listens to the answers. I've been on uh Coast to Coast with him a few times over the years, and first of all, he's a great interviewer, but he also listens to everything everybody says. So it it's not like you say something and then he then he goes, um, okay, now, uh, our next, he doesn't do that. He's listening to what you're saying and he wants to know more about it because why? A good reporter is insatiably curious and won't take no for an answer and doesn't tolerate it very well. And that describes that man. That's why he's a he's a friend of mine and I am also, I couldn't hold a candle to him as a reporter. He's just the best.

Yeah. And always has been. And uh, even when he's talking to, I don't want to use the word crazy, but the more out there stories. He's always respectful. He's asking good questions. You know, his famous uh John Lear interview is fascinating.

Um, with some of the stuff John says is like, "Wow." But but George just kind of leans in and asks the right questions. It's fascinating.

Nothing wrong with letting people tell you their story. Uh, the only thing wrong is believing it if you don't have

100%.

Right. So yeah, of course you got to listen to this. But what I think um, another thing that makes um, let's call it the Knapp style because he's not the only one practicing that this day. There are other great people who are doing journalism on this topic. And the the thing is, doesn't matter how outrageous something is or isn't. You still have to you have to still say to yourself, well, is there a way for me to uh, validate this? You know, is it you don't take anything at face value. You have to say there's more to the story than what this person just told me because that's the other thing you learn doing journalism. You go, there are a lot of different points of view about things. And one of the things that I found so frustrating about, you know, network journalism or just mainstream journalism in broadcasting is that because the time is so short, and this applies not just to um, long form, but it certainly applies to regular reporting. And this is my criticism, and it's been particularly strong about UFOs, which is the basic way to cover a controversial story in broadcasting is to find somebody who says says yes, somebody who says no, interview them both and then do a standup where you say, "Some say yes, some say no, I say maybe." That's what qualifies as a journalistically balanced report. But sometimes a story isn't balanced. Sometimes there's actually some facts that support saying yes or no.

Sure.

And we we don't see that that often.

No, we don't.

Certainly not in local markets. You really don't.

No, you don't. Um, I guess one of my idols or heroes is Art Bell because not only would he be respectful of the person telling the story, he just had such an instinct for spotting the story and knowing, "All right, I've got a beginning, middle, and end. Here's how we're going to tease it out." He just he saw it, you know, miles away. Here's an interesting thing about Art Bell. By the way, I I know Art Bell or knew Art Bell and I was on his show. Uh, I think in '96 I was on Art Bell's show and uh, I put him on Dark Skies. I made Art Bell a member of Majestic 12.

I forgot about that.

He was a member. He played William S. Paley. That's right. The head of CBS.

He talked about it forever. I now I remember that. Wow.

I And listen, I don't think Art would take exception to what I'm about to say. The difference between Art and uh, you know, George Knapp is Art was an entertainer with a show. Uh, George is a journalist who sometimes is on a show. Right. And Art would let things stand just because, well, I mean,

that's what they say, right? So on the show that I was doing with Art Bell, um, I was on to talk about, this is one of my first interviews ever on the UFO topic. I wasn't interviewing him. He was interviewing me because of Dark Skies. But at the as the show started, somebody had called in saying, "I'm seeing some lights up on in Monterey or something. I don't even remember the location, but it's the California coast." And Art just said, "Well, we're going to be following this story very carefully tonight." And so every time we'd go to a commercial break, he'd he'd say, "And now the lights seem to be down." I mean, we just. And it was a it was a show. Did it is it listed in any books as a great UFO sighting today? I don't think so.

Probably not.

No. But I I listen, he classic radio guy.

Yes.

Really good at what he did. Great voice.

Just everything.

And and you know, he he stood his ground and he did he was look,

good guy. I mean, he wrote a book uh, I think, The Quickening. I mean, he was a great guy and and I mean, loved Art. And and by the way,

uh, putting him on Majestic 12. I I remember when my partner Brent and I thought we would do that and I went, "Well," he he's like, "Well, why why would Art Bell do that?" I said, "It's it's ironic. It's subversive. Let me call him." And I I called him up and there was this kind of long pause and then he and then he says, "Um, I I think the first thing he said is, uh, do I get to keep the mustache?"

Of course he did.

He didn't. We made him.

Gave it.

I think that was the thing he. But anyway, it was fun. He and he saw he saw the joke. I mean, which is a lovely thing for someone to not take themselves so seriously, they can't do something like that. I think it gave him fun. He and his wife of the time came to the set and we hung out all day and he had a great time. He Yeah. And and and to be honest with you,

did a very good performance.

Sure. Because he was a performer.

He's a performer. And what a what a great nod to the audience who spotted him. They had to just go nuts for it.

Well, you know, that's the kind of thing where 90% of that audience >> had no knowledge of anything, just another actor, you know, in a scene. But for the 10% who were sort of UFO curious, they knew and they thought it was pretty wild.

I love it. You know, I put those jokes in my shows all the time that nobody gets except for that >> one sliver, but it's so special to them >> because, you know, good stuff can just work on a couple of levels and as long as one of the levels hits most of the people, you're okay.

Yeah. So, how did you become the uh what got you interested in space and that sort of thing? Does this go back to dad and the and the Apollo?

That's a good Yes. Yes. I'm There's two stories here. One is space, one is UFOs. Let's talk space first.

Um, when I was um I I grew up in Hillsboro, Oregon, which is a suburb of Portland. And when I was 15 years old, I was living large. I had started working as a fry cook at the Arctic Circle Drive-In. And I started at $1.10 an hour and I had worked my way up to $1.35.

Wow.

Right.

Pretty cool. And I got to be a fry cook. Eat all the burgers and fries you wanted. It was sweet work, right?

But I was interested in space because during the 60s, it was our article of faith for my family. You know, I was just a little kid, but we would get up at 4 in the morning on Mercury flights and Gemini flights and everybody would watch the TV together. So, I sort of had this burned in. My father was a history teacher, so I had this idea burned in. Well, okay.

So, dad wanted to get up.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And get everybody up.

He got everybody up. It's like he would come in at like 4:30 or something. Okay. They're they're going to launch in half an hour or whatever it was, right? And so, we would all watch it. All right. Flash forward to 1969 when again Bryce is living large, making big bucks, you know, clearing almost $10 a day. Wow. Think about that. Yeah. Not bad for a 15-year-old. So, uh, I was working, the manager at the Arctic Circle was a Basque separatist named Mariano Bilbao. Okay. And Mariano was a tough. He's the best kind of hardworking immigrant you'd want.

What's a Basque separatist?

He wanted the Basque region of Spain to separate from Spain.

Oh, I thought they all want that.

Don't do they? I don't know. At the time I

They're the descendants of Atlantis. They want to be their own thing, man.

All right. Well, then then I withdraw the character. He was just a Spanish immigrant, we'll call it. But

No, he was Basque.

He was Basque. Hardworking guy, though. All right. And um, so he put up the schedule and on July 20th, 1969, yours truly was on the schedule doing the main cooking at the Arctic Circle. And I went to Mariano and said, "Hey, uh, you know, the moon landing, can I get the night off?" And he said, "N no, the schedule. No, no, you can't have the night off. Why? Well, I want to see the movie. You You can't get out of this to watch TV." And I said, okay, could we put a TV in the Arctic Circle? Put a TV in a restaurant? No. And I said, "Well, what about what about a radio?" Radio, stop talking. Right. He was done. And I So, I resigned myself. I was not going to see it. Okay. So, I report to work on July 20th, 1969. And it's about 3:54 minutes before the before uh Armstrong and Aldrin are going to be on the moon surface. And um, I just can't handle it, man. I just cannot handle it. And I call up my dad. And the thing you have to understand is my dad was one of those tough guys. Uh, imagine the guy from Wonder Years, you know, that was my dad kind of guy.

So this was a Hail Mary of the highest order that I was about to parlay here. But I called him up and I said, "Dad, I just really want to see the moon landing. Can Can you come and get me?" And then I take the phone and I'm holding it out here because I know he's going to be screaming. He's going to be saying, "You made a deal. You have to be responsible, etc., etc." Right? And then he says, "Um, what does he say? Oh, he says, uh, you know, you'll be fired." And I said, "Yeah, I know." And long pause and he goes, "I'll be right down." So, dad comes down, picks me up, takes me back home. We sit around the TV, we watch the moon landing. About 35 minutes into the moon landing, he turns to me and he goes, "I think it's time for you to go face the music."

Puts me back in the car, drives me down to the Arctic Circle. I get out. By this point, Mariano Bilbao was there because he's been called in that Bryce has abandoned his post. Sure.

Right. And he he does as expected. He fires me on the spot. And my father, God bless him. I mean, cuz he never this was not his style. Um, he goes to Mariano and he goes, "You know, you are making a a very big mistake because this is going to go down as the defining moment of our times and you are always going to regret what you did tonight." And then he turns to me and goes, "Son, get in the car." And he drove me home and of course, I never worked at the Arctic Circle again. Wow. And your dad was right.

He was right.

And he had such he had an instinct for how important it was that Yeah. that it's more important than being a fry cook. Absolutely.

We need we need to

No, I have to say, I mean, that was a tough one though, because you know, I I kid about the salary and all that, but you know, there were lessons being learned having a job at a young age and and all that.

Oh, yeah.

So, you know, um, but these things happen. These things happen.

They do. So let's take a quick break. We'll come back. We'll talk about how Hollywood enters the picture. I love it. Let's do that.

Before we get to Hollywood, want to talk about your basement experience.

Well, listen, I was thrilled to go to the basement uh to talk to you because the the way I came to actually first really appreciate the UFO topic involves a basement. Okay.

Okay. Um, I think when I was like 12 or 13, um, my family didn't have a lot of money or anything, so and there were no video games, so there weren't a lot of things for me and my friends to do but ride bikes and, you know, that kind of stuff. But we came up with a way to have some fun. We would go down to my parents' basement because I don't know, nobody has basements in Southern California where I live now, but they had basements back then. So, we went into the basement and my parents had kept every issue of Look and uh Life magazines, okay, in the basement and they were just mouldering away in the basement. Nothing really happening to them. When my friends and I came up with a reuse purpose, we would take a a you know, these are extended format magazines, and we would take them and we would roll them tight, right? And they would become like lightsabers and we would have magazine fights in the basement where you would hit each other's magazines and then the guy whose mag and they paper would be flying and everything and the guy won who disabled his opponent's magazine. Now I admit, but at least it was environmentally friendly, right? You got to at least say that. Okay, so we're down there having a basement battle and I'm, you know, I pick a magazine up and I start to roll it up and then I realize there's this kind of cute French actress on the front cover. Okay. And her name was Cécile Aubry and it was a Life magazine from June 26, 1950. I was not alive during that, of course, but these are old old magazines. And so I I stop because I'm 13, you know, and I'm just starting to be interested in women.

Of course, you stop.

Yeah. I'm like, "Ah, this is interesting." So, um, I'm find her, you know, I open it up and I'm looking to see this Cécile Aubry who I think is like some kind of u she's being promoted as this French ingenue kind of thing, right? And I find the the article and there's all these pictures of Cécile Aubry. Did it open this way? No, it did not. I wish it had. That would come later, but that's a story we don't need to cover here in this. And I wrote down this quote because it's so interesting. Um, they described her as "frisky, perky, sugar and spice bundle of adolescence."

Love it.

Yeah. How could you beat that, right? I mean, so, you know, my friends, I were looking at that and then I'm, you know, we're going to get back onto the, you know, the battlefield and

as I'm closing up the magazine to roll it up, something catches my eye. And in that magazine is a picture of the McMinnville UFO photos. Remember those? 1950. There's two of them. And the Trents from McMinnville, Oregon. Um, actually took these pictures on a on a camera that the guy had. His name was Trent. And the article is called Farmer Trent's Flying Saucer.

Are these the one where you see the the telephone poles in front of it?

Yeah.

Oh, wow. And in fact, I'm I'm sure probably on the video version of this, you'll probably show people what they look like. They're pretty great photos. Anyway, my friends and I stop and we're like, "What is this?" Because the thing the thing that's so great about those photos and I'm kind of obsessed by them uh over the years um is that they're either true or they're not. They're either a hubcap suspended or they're actually a flying saucer that's better than anything the government's been releasing right now where you're actually looking at it. And there aren't a lot of ways to fake those flying saucers in those photos and they have stood the test of time. They have been reviewed by uh commissions. Um Bruce Maccabee did a whole study on them. I mean, they stand the test of time. But what's interesting and gathered the attention of me and my friends is that we lived just a 20 miles from McMinnville, 20, 30 miles from McMinnville. This was local. So, we're looking at this these two pictures of UFOs and going,

"Damn, these these are this is almost more interesting than than Aubry."

Almost, you know, almost not quite. Then we're 13 up there.

But but it was

it was right here.

Yeah. It we that's what we thought. And we go and every time my parents and I would drive to the Oregon coast to uh, you know, go to the beach or whatever, you drove through McMinnville. They have a big UFO festival there right now. And so that's where I started to first say, what is this? What you know, what's going on?

How did Life cover that story?

Respectfully,

They did.

I It was only a single page. I think it has both has one big blow-up of one of them and a smaller of another and has a picture of Farmer Trent with his camera, right? Um, the thing is uh, I literally went to high school with people that in their later lives uh, you know, provided healthcare for for the Trents and everybody always said about the Trents, these people, you know, are pretty well salt of the earth. They ain't they ain't making stuff up. But more than that, if this blows my mind, because today, of course, we all have phones. We take a zillion photos, right? But he comes out there, he's got a camera with a a fresh roll of film in it, right? I mean, he may have taken a few pictures on it. And he takes these two photos. What does he do? He doesn't run to the local pharmacy with the developing thing and get them developed. No, he holds on to them for a few months because he's a frugal man. And and he doesn't develop them until he's used up the entire roll.

Roll, right?

And but those photos became the, you know, the biggest things. And to this day, to this day, I think they stand the test of time. I urge anyone to look at them and say, "What's the deal with that?" Because here's the thing. They're not orbs.

They're they're nuts and bolts.

Yes. Something is flying in McMinnville, Oregon, uh, in in May of 1950 that is anomalous.

Yep. So this is less than three years from Kenneth Arnold and Roswell. So the propaganda machine is not in full effect yet.

Correct. And and uh, you know, again, uh, I'm sure people had their own interpretations as as they always would, but but Life at that time was not into debunking or or anything. They I mean, it it I think they portrayed it like like People magazine might have portrayed it later, you know, it was like, here's an interesting story.

Right. Sure.

But and and they and they put it in there because they thought that it was a really good photo. But I I just want to give you one example of how the problem we face in ufology for trying to get to the truth of certain things. So years later, uh, I at I I have been not to that many UFO conferences, but I was selected as a speaker to one at the IUFOC, I think, in uh, in Phoenix. And

So I put together a a PowerPoint. And what I made for that PowerPoint, I was trying to make the point that the media never covers these stories accurately or appropriately, right? They always either make fun or whatever. And I was trying to make a point of this is what should have happened. So, I made a Time and Newsweek magazine with the with the McMinnville photos in them, right? And I put that up for the audience and said, "Remember these magazines?" And everybody's like, "Yeah, yeah." And I said, "No, you don't. They're fake. I made them." Right. Just to show people, ask questions. Don't always believe things.

Okay. If you go to the McMinnville UFO Conference website, under their history section, they have my magazine. Oh no. >> And they list they are showing it as the real thing. And I have written them letters. I have uh social media posted about it. I've told friends to talk to them about it. And they won't take it down. >> Oh no. Became part of the problem. >> Yeah. >> Uh I absolutely believe it. I mean, and so you I I say that only u you know, I'm not trying to be alarmist or I'm just saying you got to ask questions and and honestly I I wish the people there would just take it down. They should take it down. >> They should. I mean, it's yours. >> Yeah. I But I don't even care about that. You know, I think to a certain amount when I see people that take a picture of something and then they put copyright in the corn. Listen, if we're trying for transparency and to prove that the UFO UAP issue is honest and and needs to be taken seriously as an anomaly, I'm not interested in copyrighting everybody's little u you you know UFO photo. I think I think you should give the they should have u the narrative of how that photo or video came to be, but they should release it to the world. You're you're not trying to hold on to it to, you know, to make money off it. you're trying to help us reach a decision about what what is going on. Anyway, so that's how I became interested in UFOs. >> Those fakes though, they muddy the waters. They make it so difficult. >> They do. And I feel it's so weird. I mean, I never for a million I don't even know how they got it. I I I never in a million years though thought that this was just meant to be kind of shock value for an audience as an entertainer. I was just saying there they are. But that's what happened.

Well, how did you make the shift into screenwriting? I didn't you have the first sci-fi original? >> I did. I I abs and it was about UFOs. Um, here's how it's it's interesting. Um, okay. So, here's the thing. If you're a a TV news guy and you're an anchor man or a reporter, you're going to get fired. Yes. >> Either your boss is going to get fired or your show is going to be cancelled or you're going to be fired because somebody different looking is coming. You are going to be fired. And so um at a certain point uh when uh various jobs were ending, I had uh started dating my my wife Jackie. And uh I sort of realized I was going to have to if if I was going to stay in the news business, the two of us were going to have this terrible pulling apart, you know, because we both have to be looking. I I met her in the mayor's office. She was a radio reporter. I was a CNN correspondent, right? But we were each if you're going to pursue that career, that broadcasting career, you're going to end up in a different city and you're going to have these problems. And and Jackie said, you know, have you uh ever considered writing a screenplay? >> That's your That's your fall back. I >> I had never seen a screenplay. This was before the internet. I And I said, "No, I don't." And you know what we did, AJ? This is so weird. We We got in the car. We drove down to Hollywood Boulevard, found some guy on the street of Hollywood Boulevard who was selling screenplays of movies that have been made. We bought a couple of them and I read them and I thought, hm, this looks pretty simple. Um, there's not a lot of adjectives. It's pretty straightforward, right? And uh, so I wrote, they say, write what you know, right? So, um, well, the first thing I wrote was about something else, but I gave it up halfway through because I said it's been good therapy. It's not a great script. Then I wrote a a a script called ENG, which stands for electronic news gathering. And uh because that's what I knew. I knew the world of TV news. And that got me an agent. Uh it got sold. They made 102 episodes of it up in Canada. And and and so >> did you know how unlikely that was? >> Not at the time. >> You were like, "This is easy." >> Well, that's what I thought. And then the very the second script I wrote also became a TV series here in the US. And so I thought I thought I I at that point I was starting to realize this was pretty luck. I mean it's luck plus skill, but you have to be in the right place and whatever. >> Um and I just thought, well, you know what? As long as people keep paying me to do this, I'm going to keep doing this. >> And so I just uh stopped being a broadcast journalist. Even though in a heart and by training, I still feel that I am that person. Uh certainly podcasting gives you the ability to do those things these days without act having to work for NBC or somebody. Um, but I just turned my attention to drama and I found, as I said earlier, um, one of the greatest pieces of training anybody can have to be a screenwriter is to have been in news because you you experience so much real life in such a comp, you know, condensed space of time, right? And so it being a journalist was the greatest thing absolutely in the world. And I do think um if if I have a superpower as a writer, it's simply that I've experienced a lot of things. Not because I saw a lot of movies. Uh and now I've seen a lot of movies, but at the time I had more experience than movies.

>> Do you remember where you were when you saw your first thing on TV that you wrote? >> Who was with you? What was that like? >> Oh, wow. Uh, yeah. Yeah. It was a CBS uh drama series called K. O'Brien, which was about a female surgeon in New York City. It was like Grey's Anatomy without the sex. Um, it might still be on the air if we'd put the sex in it. I could be a big mistake. But anyway, CBS put it on at 10:00 at night and um, of course, I'd already seen it by this point a thousand times in the edit rooms or whatever, but we had a little party for some friends. Everybody wore surgical scrubs and everything and we had a few TVs and I just remember watching that and thinking, "Oh my I mean, oh my >> what a moment." >> It it was it it was a beautiful moment. Um, in a way that never that exceeds I you know I had seen myself on the air on taped reports as a reporter. So that's very personal. But you don't say now that's art. you just go, "Well, that's today. I wonder what I'll do tomorrow." Right? But when you see something you wrote, oh goodness, that uh that that gets to you. It's and and you know what? It is a thrill that never reduces. >> If I had something on tomorrow night and you and I were watching it, I'd still be giddy. I'd still be there'd be tingling in my fingers, you know? I'd just be, "Oh my gosh, here it here it comes." because and and and what's so interesting about that, I think, is that again, you've seen it so many times. You wrote it, you shot it, you were in the edit room, you've seen it posted, you've, you know, so many times. So many, many times. And it's never the same when you watch it on the air. >> No, that's special. >> Just like you and I are having an experience right now. Okay. Now, I don't know if you watch all your shows. >> Never. Okay. But I will be watching this one and I guarantee you that when I watch it, I'll get that tingle because I'll say, "Wow, that's how it looked. I didn't, you know, because you you have one experience from where you are and then you have another experience where you're interacting with the finished product." >> That's right. >> And that's what I think um I mean, listen, there are a lot of knocks on Hollywood. It is not a perfect world. Trust me. I mean, I've been kicked and abused and >> I was there, man. lied to and you you name it and you've had it too, you know. So, it's not perfect, but it is exciting. And you know what's interesting about Hollywood? If you're like, say you're a bank manager, okay, you you're going to have a good chance to still be a bank manager tomorrow, right? In Hollywood, you could be fired tomorrow. On the other hand, in Hollywood, the phone could ring and somebody goes, "Hey, are you represented by anybody?" Uh, well, uh, yeah. Okay, who who can I call? And then suddenly you're working on something, right? And and it's it's cool. I you know, like um I worked on Taken with Stephen Spielberg. That's a thrill. >> I bet it is. >> How do you how do you replicate that? I mean, that was beautiful.

>> Uh I want to talk about Take It a little bit later. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, take me through Dark Skies. >> Yeah. Was did the network ask you to do that or did you pitch it? >> We just came up with it. Uh Dark Skies is I I I understand it's an old show. Uh but it is an important show for sort of the whole idea of how is disclosure being managed. >> Well, people should still watch it because it's it's tracking now. Uh, but what's interesting about Dark Skies, in addition to the show itself, which I believe one of the critics when it came out called it the most subversive show on television, which I still bask in that one. That's >> it. It was >> it was >> I'm surprised it made it on the air. >> Uh, as were as was I uh at the time. But what's, you know, AJ, what's so interesting is that the the the thing that happened outside of the show while making the show was potentially even stranger than the show. And and that I think is the takeaway from it for me because um what happened in a in a this is a short version of a big story, but what happened is and and this goes back to what we were just talking about watching something live that you've done. my partner Brent Freriedman and I had created Dark Skies um and and and we had we'd come up with briefing books that didn't look dissimilar to this thing, right? We had these briefing books that were classified briefing books and uh they to they had all these fake documents and timelines and stuff in there. And the premise of the notebooks was uh we put a little gold foil seal on them. said you had to break it and they said they were top secret on the outside and they said that if you violated the terms of looking at them you'd be up for trees and I mean they were great and then they were wrapped in in brown paper wrapper and with twine around them. So when we took these to the networks >> Oh so that was the pitch >> that was the pitch. >> It's brilliant. So we took that to the network and we left them with these things and we just had to smile because they were so interactive for the time. This is before the internet. It meant that some executive was looking at this thing saying they could be up for treason if they didn't treat it properly. And so >> you got to open it. >> They had to cut the twine. They had to take off the paper. They had to break the gold foil seal. And then what it said in there is you have been chosen basically to help get out the truth about UFOs and it has to be done under the cover of fiction. So now you are part of the conspiracy to tell this disclosure. >> Wow. >> Right. >> So brilliant pitch. >> Bold. It was in fact some there's some group that called it one of the uh uh 12 best pilots uh pitches ever in Hollywood Bibles. It was a Bible uh and a pitch.

>> Okay. So suddenly my friend uh Brent Freriedman are on the fast track um and a series of things started happening um which I could either tell you about him from the biggest to the littlest or in chronology. I'm kind of uh at sea, but I'm going to I'm going to go with chronology for for a moment here just to show you how so we're cruising along. I've already created TV shows. I know what this is like and I know how gifted we were. You know, this was great. They're going to and NBC buys it and they order it to pilot. So, while we're shooting the pilot, the first weird thing happens. I get a postcard. I'm we're shooting. This is in production. And while we're shooting, I get a postcard in the mail. And on the one side of it, and I will give this postcard to you guys if you want to put it in the show. On one side is the cover of a science fiction book. All right. Called um uh Flying Eyes. All right. But on the other side, it's been typed in a real typewriter with a dark black ribbon. It's all caps. And it is not written as a sentence. It's written one word, one word, one word, one word. And it says, "We are watching you." >> No kidding. >> Now, sure, that could have >> But we're sent to your home. >> It was sent to my home, my home address. We are watching you. Okay. So, that happened during the pilot. And the truth is, um, I went to my partner the next day and said, "Did you send this to me?" And he's like, "What? What are you talking?" And so, obviously, he didn't. >> Get one, too. >> No, just me. >> Okay. just me and um oh well to backfill it's not like I wouldn't have been on somebody's radar because you did mention it the first film I ever had made was called official denial and it was the first film on the sci-fi channel okay and it was about somebody who was being abducted right and the government believed him my inspiration was Whitley Strieber if the government thought Whitley Strieber was actually being abducted I thought what if they wire up his house when he's not there. So the next time he's abducted, they can uh be told about it instantly and try to shoot down a UFO. >> Right. >> Operation Forced Encounter. >> That's right. >> So that's what that movie is about. So anyway, now jumping ahead to Dark Skies and you get this card. The pilot gets produced. Uh NBC likes it. >> I think it gets a WGA award. No, >> it does. It Well, it got nominated for a WGA award. Yes, it did. and the um the main titles of the series won the Emmys. >> Yep. >> Uh won the Emmy. Um >> so now we're fast forwarding. Now we're picked up. NBC says we're ordering 13 hours of this thing. You know, get to work on the scripts. We're going into production on the series. And uh all of that happens in the fall when the show is coming out. We're having a party at my house. All right. It's a premier party. 200 people are in the backyard of this party at the at my the house I live in today. These are people I know. These are people that include studio executives and network executives, all the actors, all the crew, everybody. And I know them all because I'm the producer of the show. >> Is this your Majestic 12 party? >> Yes. Yeah. And everybody has a little badge uh that we made that that we are actually using in the series. So, we thought, well, that's a party favor. Nobody will get rid of. Sure. So maybe they already majestic quil badge in the middle of this. And we got TVs outside, we got TVs inside. In the middle of this, >> some guy comes, one of my producers says, "There's this guy that's looking to talk to you. You better talk to him." And this guy introduces himself. Um, and I don't know who he is. He's the only guy in a party of 200 people. I don't know who he is. And he doesn't have a badge, right? And he says he's about 30 years old. nice enough looking guy, jacket, collared shirt, not dissimilar to what I'm wearing right now. And he says, "Listen, the people I work for have sent me here to uh tell you that um you've done a really great job. You know, uh we're we we're just really impressed by what you have been able to do." And what do you what do you mean by that? I'm I'm asking the guy. And he says, "Oh, well, you know, um, you got a lot of things right >> in the pilot." >> Yeah. >> Which has aired yet? >> No, it has not aired. It's airing that night. And so, me being the wise ass I am at the time, I'm I'm thinking the guy is full of nonsense. So, I go, "Oh, yeah. You've seen the pilot." >> He goes, "Well, yeah." And and he said, "And uh we've read your other scripts." >> We >> Yeah. >> Okay. We've read the other scripts. >> Yeah. The ones that we're working on, they've they've had access. So I'm like, "Okay, you've seen the pilot. >> What happens after the crop circle?" You know, I'm full of swagger. And he goes, "Oh yeah, that's a great scene." And then afterwards, they take the guy back to the Majestic 12 headquarters and they do that operation to to pull the ganglion out of his head and and all that. And I had to go, uh, yeah, that's exactly what happens, right? So he had seen the pilot. >> Did he tell you who he worked for? >> Yes. Um, but what's interesting is I threw him out of the party. I said, "You know, I don't know who you are. Um, I've got 200 people here. I got a party to run. You need to leave." So, I told him to leave. About an hour later. Um, I'm going into the kitchen, probably to check on ordurves. I don't know what. I'm just going to the kitchen. And I see this guy talking to my partner Brent Freriedman >> in in the kitchen. >> No, in uh by the barbecue right outside. So, I go over there and the guy um has started chatting up Brent and he says he's from the Office of Naval Intelligence. Oh, and I >> he says his name is JC to call him JC. He didn't say his name was. He says, "Call me JC." And uh they basically are saying, "Look, we'd like to uh you know, we're we're all about trying to encourage slow drip disclosure and we would like to, you know, strike some kind of arrangement, some kind of deal with you guys." Okay. Uh what do you mean? Well, we would help give you some information that might be useful to you. Uh, and you would try to accommodate that into some of your future scripts. All right. Now, at that point, to be honest with you, I don't know if I'm coming or going. I mean, I got a lot on my mind. It's hard to produce a show and it's hard to have a party in your backyard. And >> this is a surreal conversation. >> Totally surreal. Totally surreal. >> But there's something about him that you believe him. >> Well, he was a a a credible nice nice enough guy. I mean, to be honest, >> he knew the scene. >> He knew the scene. He he'd obviously had some accident. Now, it's not like the Dark Skies pilot was locked up at Fort Knox and no one could ever have seen it, >> right? But you're not sending screeners to DC. >> We're not sending them to O and I for sure. I don't know. Uh >> actual paper scripts though. >> Yes. He he said he Yes. >> Yeah. >> This is NBC. >> Yes. So, here's the part that gets very strange. >> Okay. I threw him out a second time. I this time I mean it. >> I said, "Look, uh, this is all fascinating and everything, but I don't have time to deal with this right now." And I, you know, it's really time for you to go. >> And he goes, "Got it. Understand?" And then he looks at me. I'm standing there with Brent and Brent's wife. Um, and um, he says, "Anybody have a piece of paper and a pen?" And uh, I don't. Brent doesn't, but his wife says, "Uh." And she gets something out of her purse. She's got a bank deposit envelope. She rips off the back part of the envelope and hands it to him with a pen. And the guy turns away from us and goes. Now, this happens in about 30 seconds. All right. 30 seconds. But and he's very purposeful and he's writing something and then he folds it in half and he hands it to us and he goes, "You know, you may want to put this in a safety deposit box or something. maybe if we don't make a deal 10 or 15 years from now, maybe you'll look it up and you'll see we were on the level. And Brent says, "Can we look at it?" And he goes, "Oh, sure." So we look at it and I the only way I can describe it right this second is it kind of looked like an equation with symbols in it. And I didn't immediately understand everything about it, but it was clearly his intention to write it. I mean, he didn't make this up in 30 seconds. I can't share it with you right now because we're doing it on our Soundlight and Frequency podcast later. I I but I will come back on and talk to you about it sometime or what I I feel bad even saying that. >> No, no, that's okay. >> But you'll understand why. >> So, uh we say to him, "What is it?" And the guy goes, "Secrets of the universe, sound, light, and frequency." Which is where the title of the current podcast comes from. Now, the reason I'm not sharing it right now is but what Brent and I, it had been lost for a number of years for and and well, I we we got our hands back on it just recently in advance of this. And so, we've decided to try to investigate it a little bit so that we can sort of we're going to present our findings and put release it to the public on the same day. That's all. That's the only reason we're sitting on the actual thing right now. and it had been lost because Brent had been living in um Hollywood and then he moved to the San Juan Islands and they got a different safety deposit box and his wife it was smaller and his wife moved the stuff into his his office and about tw about two years ago this is so funny how things happen because people say well why didn't you hold on to that well I was busy with raising three kids making TV and movies and stuff I had other things to do. So I I started to write a book about this which I never have finished and I wrote I called Brent up and I go I you know you've had this thing for a quarter of a century man it's my turn right >> and he said okay fine and he looks for it he couldn't he couldn't find it >> and I said that's just not I mean you know Brent and I are fast friends but >> this was a problem I mean so I said hey it's not okay you know I mean I trusted you with this thing and it's a key part of this story and I need to see it." And he goes, "I I can't find it." And I said, "When's your daughter coming home from college?" And he goes, "She's going to be here this weekend." I said, "Tell her I'll give her $500 if she can find it." And she found it. And what had happened is the glue from the envelope or whatever had stuck inside a couple of pages. And as she went through every book and every folder, she found this thing again. So, we've only recently sort of refound it and are and but it's clearly the one. I mean, I it's clearly the the thing. So, we're looking into it. >> So, it's just symbols. >> It's it's it's like it's more like an equation. It's not really an equation. It's a drawing. It's a a It's a drawing with stuff in it that you'll see. I wish I could be more specific. I >> I mean, I want you to speculate on it, but we need to you need to save that reveal. I I think so. I mean, I think with the I as as the more I've looked into it and the more I talk to people about it, um people are like, "Well, that's not That's something." Um and uh is it um is it the secrets of the universe? I don't know. But if you think about sound, light, and frequency, many people do say those three things are pretty primal in terms of understanding our reality. And in fact Tesla is widely re reputed to have said if you want to understand the secrets of the universe think about uh energy vibration and frequency or something along those lines. Right? So maybe this guy was an acolyte of of um of Tesla.

>> But the story doesn't end there. >> No. >> No. >> Okay. because he leaves and um you know the the next week at the office you know Brett and I look at this thing and I go you know what I don't have time to think about this neither do you put it in your safe deposit we'll worry about it later this guy calls and says Bryce seems to be a bit of a problem he telling to Brent he he I'm not sure he really understands what we're we're talking about um >> this is JC >> yeah and he says maybe he needs to meet my superior And so JC and his so-called superior arranged to come to our office at Dark Skies to talk to us about a deal. Okay. So I you know I was very busy but that's pretty tantalizing. One does kind of want to hear what they have to say, right? Yes. >> So we said okay. But I told the security guys, we're going to talk in the conference room that has a glass partition so everyone can see you in the conference room in case anything untoward is happening. And I said, I want you guys to stand outside the conference room and look tough. Look like you're not to be messed with, right? >> And so they did. >> And JC showed up. He was kind of the good cop. He brings a guy maybe 10, 15 years older than him who I believe Brent and I have always called him the captain. We didn't call him anything in the meeting, but we believe he was introduced as a captain. >> No credentials shown. >> We asked for them. Um I didn't ask him at the party because to be honest with you, people say, "Well, why didn't you?" It's because I'm sorry. I'm in the middle of >> No, I get it. And who knows? He could be a wacky guy. You don't know. >> Yeah. And so I thought, "I don't have time to vet the guy at a party. I'm not going to worry about. So, yeah, we did when they came and the guy, the so-called captain guy, he came dressed in a bomber jacket with a lot of insignas and patches and stuff, jeans, boots. He looked like a Navy Seal. This is how I always looked at him. If you if the if the JC character looked like he had in an intelligence background, the the guy he brought looked more military, really felt tough. Navy Seal and he didn't look like he was happy to be there. He was very condescending to to me and Brad. He he he sort of felt like you seriously I gotta go talk to these Hollywood guys, right? He was very tough. He was not not there to win over our us for friends or anything. And um you know uh again I've talked about these things for an hour I'm sorry an hour in a podcast or whatever. I don't I don't want to waste your hour here. No, you're not wasting it. >> But we had a >> I want to know what the deal what the offer was. >> We had an out Well, the offer was made a little more specific. Um Oh, but to go back to the identification. Yeah, I did say, well, who are you? You know, you know, you say you're from OMI, prove it or whatever. He goes, that's not the way it works. That was a favorite line of his because um he said um you know if we're going to make a deal then that information will be available to you. >> And he said and by the way you know we've already done a preliminary investigation on you guys. If we make a deal we'll we'll do a more detailed one. I mean how weird is that? So a guy is going to investigate. They've already done a preliminary investigation on me but I don't get to know who they are. >> It sounds like a threat a little bit. It's very threatening like that postcard. >> Was there a dollar figure? >> No. No. Uh because um well, I mean okay here's what went down. He his whole thing was it's there's so much complexity in all this. I I you know I I there's no way I'll say it perfect or anything but you you recall in the 1980s there was that special UFO live or something and it was on I don't know where it was but they purported they had a bunch of people in shadowy interviews and they were talking about an alien and strawberry ice cream and things like that and remember that was Richard Dodie and they called themselves the aviary. That's right. Right. And it was the Air Force. That's right. These guys the Falcon. Exactly. And of course, the Air Force has been a lot less forthcoming over the years than the Navy. >> That's right. >> Even recently >> less forthcoming and much more destructive. >> Yes. And that, you know, the Navy, while not perfect, seems to be on the front lines of a lot of this stuff right now. >> Um, these guys said, and and this will just probably make you laugh. And and again, I'm not vouching for everybody. I'm just trying to be a a a good pragmatic relayer of what happened. Sure. Right. As opposed to saying this is this is what I believe. I just can tell you what was said. What he said was we're he either said we are the aquarium or think of us as the aquarium. >> Navy area or aquarium. >> Aquarium. >> Aquarium. >> Because they were the Navy. >> Right. >> I got to write this down. There's an heckle. There's an episode to be made there. Hecklefish will have things to say about that. >> Yes, I think >> the aquarium. >> All right. Now, over the years, I've told that to people who are in the UFO UA. >> Hold on. Keep us in the room. You say no. >> Yeah. >> You say I'm not interested. >> Uh to the to Oh. Uh, no. We did not say we're not interested. >> You didn't say no. >> No. Well, in the room, this goes on about an hour and a half, and it got kind of contentious. Whereas the the good cop JC was always trying to say, "Well, I I think we can agree, you know, but this guy I I felt like, okay, you want to ask us for this deal." And the deal was simply going to be some version of we will brief you on certain key things that you should know and you will find ways to incorporate them into your series. you know, no nothing beyond that at this point. Um, which is a, you know, kind of a weird thing for somebody to be in your office telling you about. >> Why does it take over an hour >> because I said to the guy, "So, uh, well, because I thought maybe this is real, and even if it's not real, if it's disinformation, I know about Richard Dodie and that I'd like you know, yeah, I I'm thinking >> I'd like to hear what they have to say. So I said things like um well, okay, you know, that's all well and oh, I know what the first thing I should tell you though, is what they did say you got a lot of things right, but the captain was there to say what we got wrong and what he said we got wrong is we had these biological ganglens that infested a a human's brain and if you could get it out of them, you know, you could bring them back from the brink and all that and he was disgusted by the ganglians this guy and he said and this is this I've never forgotten this phrase he said that's not the way it work that's not the way it's done that's not the way it's done to which I said, well, how is it done right now? We only did the ganglen not because we believe ganglians are the real thing. This was a TV series. We're looking for a little horror effect, right? >> And he said it's um I don't know if he used the word implant, but that's what he was talking about. It's It's implants. They're technological. They're biological fusion, whatever. But it's an implant. You don't need You don't need all that stuff. >> Did they Did JC tell you what you got right? >> Yeah. Specifically, >> I think that they were saying certain things like um you know, the fact that we had Betty and Barney Hill in the pilot, that was right. The fact that we said JFK was killed over Roswell, uh possibly they implied might be right. They definitely said Roswell was right. >> I mean, connecting JFK to UFO, that's that's canon now. >> Yes, but it wasn't when we did it. No, we just made it up. Our idea then was what what is the let's take the unified field theory of conspiracy is what was our grand idea. We said, let's take the two biggest conspiracies of all time, UFOs and Kennedy. Let's put them in an atom collider and see what happens. And that became our series. Okay. Um, >> I mean, we've traced the Kennedy assassination all the way through the Mory Mory Island incident and Fred Chrisman. >> Yes. >> Guy Bannister. It all goes back to JFK. >> Yes. And >> And then the Lester memo comes out a few years ago and confirms a lot of that. >> I It always feels like I'm involved in the Mandela effect or something because when Brent and I wrote all this, there was no internet for us to get this from. We'd never read any book that said anything like this. We just made it up. only now, like you said, it's almost canon. So, >> well, Jacqu Valet would say that this is you're creating the myth and the myth is creating inspiration. >> I think that's possible >> because I mean, you cover Majestic 12 on the series. >> They said that was we got that right. >> And you got that right. >> I mean, here's the thing. I started saying to this guy, I started asking him questions, right, to to see what they were going to tell us. Did you know about the Majestic 12, Jaime Chandere More issue, all that? >> Oh, yeah. Well, that's what we based the show on. We we just said if if Roswell was real, then Majestic was real. And um and if JFK was in office 14 years after Roswell, then whether he knew about it or was trying to know about it or didn't know about it, Roswell and Majestic infected the undercurrent of Washington DC in the 60s. So that was our point of view on the whole thing. >> I think that's what Stanton Freriedman felt to it, wasn't it? >> Yeah. Well, he I Stanton was a friend of mine and and I um I once optioned his book Top Secret Magic about his quest to validate the Majestic 12 documents. Now, we could we could do a whole show arguing Majestic 12 documents. I think they're real. I don't think all of them are real, but I think I I subscribe to the Eisenhower briefing document being authentic. >> You do? >> Now, not everybody does by any means. >> Stanton did. >> He did. He He got a couple of things wrong. He did, >> but he got some things right. >> But nobody was more willing to go to a a research facility and, you know, he was like iron pants, man. He would just sit himself down and go through boxes after boxes and find stuff. Um >> I don't know about the Majestic 12 documents. There's some some things about them that I just don't like. >> Well, you're right to be skeptical, you know. I mean, >> that doesn't But I still believe there's a group. >> Yeah, there has to be a group. I I guess that's really I think we agree. Yeah. My my take was there has to be somebody in charge after Roswell. You you wouldn't have Roswell and excuse me and leave nobody in charge. So for our purposes of the show, we said for our because remember we're making these briefing books. We said, "Well, at least we can xerox the Majestic 12 documents and put them in and we don't have to write them, >> right? So we just and and also every television series, if you think about it, needs a base. If it's a hospital show, it's the ER. Now, if it's a legal show, it's uh the law office. If it's a police station, I mean a police show, it's the police station. So, what was ours? It was Majestic 12, right? >> Okay. So, that's really why we got be between it and and I again, I I respect your thought about Majestic 12. It it's going to be debated until it's not debated. At some point in this disclosure process, either we're going to see the documentation that proves how they were all done or we're going to see the documentation that proves that some of them were real >> cuz Dod's in that mess again. >> Yes, he is. And that's what I think Brent and I thought was going on when these guys came to the office. Right. And uh I the only thing and again this story gets so strange and I'm not vouching for the credibility of what the other person said. I'm only vouching for the fact that I was there and saw it happen. That's fair. Okay. So at a certain point I was asking the guy questions and you probably know this but just a few years ago David Grush told his story for the first time in my house to Ross Coltard and >> I didn't know that in your house. >> Yeah, the same place where this party happened. And many of the things that Dave and that's a story we can talk about later possibly. But many of the things Grush has said, crash retrievalss and reverse engineering and biologics and that kind of stuff, these guys were implying if not stating outright. So that felt very familiar to me that they were saying things. But as I got more detailed, the guy just put up a he goes, "That's not why we're here, right? He just he wasn't going to talk about it." And finally, he got so upset with me. I mean, I really was not rubbing the guy the right way. He goes, "Fine." And he reaches in his pocket and he pulls out this little vial. Okay? It's a little glass vial with a black screw top. And he puts it on the table and he goes, "There. That's what this is all about." And we're like, "What? What?" And >> I think Brent picked it up first. And it had little flakes in it, little gold flakes in it. Um, which uh I I presume might have been gold or what? or whatever. I I don't really know. Yeah, exactly. And but there's no liquid in it, but Brent said it kind of looked like a snow globe to him that they were kind of floating around in there. I didn't see that. When I picked it up, it was just half full with these little gold flakes. But what the guy was saying is there's mining going on on the moon and that and that this is a big part of it. Now, I can't tell you that I found evidence of mining on the moon or whatever, but that's what he said. Okay. >> How do we know what's misinformation? How do we know David's not part of a program? >> Well, he seems way way way more authentic uh as a as a witness because you you can know a lot about him. Um, which is not to say that the story I'm telling might not be 100% true, but it could also be 100% false. I'm not being false. Neither is Brent. We're just sort of telling it. But here's how it ended. U because it takes it to a a far stranger finale. I started I said I don't I was running a TV show and guys are telling me they want their world reflected in my scripts. That ain't the way I roll at this time. And so I'm saying I don't really understand this. What are you proposing? Are you saying you want us to hire writers of that you recommend? Are you saying you're you want to rewrite our scripts? What are you going to do there? And he goes, you know, he and I said, "No, I want to know. I I want to know. Are you because uh it doesn't work that way." I said, 'I got writers out here uh who who depend on residuals to feed their families and you know I want to know are you planning at some kind of impact with with this writing thing? Are you trying? And he's like we're not have you know and he got very upset and they left in a huff. >> Did they give you any examples of of what they would want in the show? >> No. Well, I mean I think >> because >> Yeah. Yeah, they did actually. No, no, actually they did have one. Here's a specific example, which is what got me into the confrontation with him in the first place. He said, "Well, are you doing any shows? We haven't seen anything where you're doing shows that take place in the water." Because I I think I had asked him the question that started that. I I said, "If you're the Navy, why are you investigating UFOs, which you know are generally in the air? What do you have to do with it?" and and you know obviously well a lot of them are seen in the water and that's when he brought up >> so are you doing stories about that because you're going to need to >> now >> we didn't really know about that back then >> but I mean not a lot not like we do today right >> and so but you know again Brent and I had set dark skies we the leader of Majestic 12 in dark skies >> was from O and I I mean he was a Navy guy. He was a Navy captain, our guy. And so that's one of the things they said we got right that we we had it in the in the Navy. But here's where things just take such a bizarre I mean, all I can tell you is life is weird. So Bryce hears this and I'm a producer and I go, "Uh, well, wait a second. You can't be shooting in water all the time. You got to get tanks and you got people in scuba gear and you I'm I'm dissecting this thing as a production problem, right? And he's I can just see the guy getting red, you know, he's just and then and then when I started talking about it and what are you going to do about these scripts because I'm a journalist, right? So I'm grilling the guy and he didn't like that. >> He doesn't like that. >> And they left in a huff. Okay. So >> you don't grill him. That's not the way it's done. >> That's not the way it's done. So, here's the craziest part that will just you'll you your audience will hear this and go, I

Don't know what to make of this because I still don't. But, all right.

So, a few more days go by and again, they're not calling me because I'm off doing show stuff, but they call Brent and he doesn't take the calls. You know, three or four calls go by. I don't think he's taken them. Finally, he picks up and it's >> the show on the air at this time. >> Yeah. How's it doing? Uh before you were banished to Saturday nights. >> Well, this is all happening right after the premiere. So, >> because the premiere did well, didn't it? >> It did. It did well enough. I mean, the numbers on a premiere in 1996 would be a hit show today, right? But we're just modest in in those days, but well enough. It was uh selected by NBC to be the lead show in their Saturday night trilogy. They had hundreds of buses around LA with dark skies posters on them. They had skyriding planes with dark sky. I mean, they were putting a lot of money in promos and marketing into this thing. >> Was X X Files around? >> Yeah, it was. It was um people always sort of felt like they had to choose between our show and their show, but I felt like XFiles is all about sort of the suspense of is it or isn't it? Our we we first of all, I we wrote this pilot you know, before really even knowing much of all about X-Files. And we also wrote it to be not uh a tease. In the very first scene of Dark Skies, you see a UFO and it ain't man-made, right? So, we're not teasing anybody. We're saying there's an alien problem here on Earth.

Um, okay. So, a few days go by after the Captain and JC come out and it's gone badly. You know, >> right? I I always have to you could either laugh about it or get concerned about it because you know it is kind of scary that anybody would come out and be mad at you uh who who looks as scary and tough as this guy. But you know now that it's decades later I I'm probably safe. I'm probably out of the woods on that one. But anyway, they call uh JC has apparently called Brent and got his assistant three or four times and Brent's not taking the calls. And finally Brent takes the call and JC says, "Well, that could have gone better." Right. Uh and and and um he basically the conversation was Bryce really seems to not be hitting it off with my superior. >> Mhm. >> Maybe we need to do something else. Okay. And they said, "We think maybe there's one more thing we can try before we have to just give up on this thing." and Brent um Brent said,"Well, what would that be?" And they said, "There's a ship that's going to be in Long Beach coming up." And there's a guy on the ship, I think he said was an admiral, but I could have that wrong. Um, but there was a guy on the ship that we needed to meet and we could not come on the ship because you can't be logged onto a ship. You can't log on a couple of Hollywood screenwriters to talk about UFOs on a ship. No, >> that's a bad idea. Now, on the other hand, uh if you're a complete conjob, it's also a good idea for you to say they can't come on the ship because you don't have to show the ship. Um but what they said is that the this guy, the admiral I call him, um was going to take shore leave of some kind uh to visit uh and pay respects to a friend who had passed. And this is the part where I'm going to tell you, you're just going to probably laugh out loud and you're or hit your head on the table. I don't know which, but they wanted us to meet this guy at a cemetery at midnight. >> Come on. >> See, that's what they said. >> What? >> That's what I said. Now, >> we can't do a wei work or something. >> Cemetery at midnight. What's that about? >> It's crazy and it's insane. Okay, I'm not I'm not arguing that it makes any sense. But then if the phenomenon is playing with you, sometimes it doesn't make sense. So I I don't I don't know. Again, I'm relaying what they said.

Now, >> uh Bren and I thought my first thing was it's an initiation, >> right? If they they they're they're testing us to see if we're either dumb enough or gullible enough or brave enough to go do it, right? >> Um Brent thought there might be something there that they were going to show us. Um but then as we talked about it, we said, "Yeah, we'll get there. there'll be two six-foot graves there and we'll each get popped in the back of the head and that'll be that to this little thing. And um uh my first reaction of course was, "Hey, I have three children and I'm married and I'm not meeting anybody at a cemetery at midnight, whether it's real or it's not real." >> Nope. >> Okay. Brent, who didn't have kids at the time, was almost willing to do it, but we had taken a vow that all for one, one for all. You know, we weren't going to do it unless we both did it. And ultimately we decided not to do it and we uh we ended the relationship. They did call a few more times. We never took their calls again. Um and I I I completely agree. There are things that sound light and frequency secrets of the universe. This formula uh the postcards we are watching you the the guy's coming. I mean here's the here's what I would say. Um I I don't know whether to vouch for or against the authenticity of this. Um I have as a reporter been lied to by experts. >> They did not strike me as lying to me. I'm just saying that. I'm just saying my my impression was that these were serious people. But I would say this, you know, you've heard of the uh the phrase an MM RPG, a multi- media role playing game. Yep. Right. It felt like Brent and I were in that that somebody had constructed a game around us and that we were unwitting players in the game. So even >> that's kind of how you started the show. >> Yeah. >> Is with an like an ARG. >> They wanted us, if you think about it, our entire pitch for selling Dark Skies was we must use the cover of fiction to tell the truth. What happened to us? Just like you were talking about, maybe you create the thing with the JFK thing. Well, what happens? These guys show up at our into our lives and say, "We need you to use the cover of fiction to slow drip disclosure." So, our heads were reeling, you know? I mean, what what's real? What's not real in this thing? And it felt like um well, let me put it this way. Somebody spent either a lot of time or a lot of money or probably probably both to do this to us because if these guys were actors, they're pretty freaking authentic actors. Um if if uh it was a a scripted thing, then somebody spent some time scripting it.

>> Yeah, but it's not easy to get your unaired pilot. >> It's not easy >> as an actor. >> It's it's it's definitely not easy. Did the network uh get involved in this? Did they >> We never told the network. >> Yeah, we that was not We see my biggest concern, by the way, about even considering it as a deal was Sony, which was producing this or Columbia TV at the time, uh, and and NBC did not really care to hear that Bryce was getting his ideas from the government. that would not be something they would want to hear. And I didn't want to tell them that. And frankly, Brent and I felt that if we even really entertained the thing, aside from the cemetery at midnight we felt if we actually entertained it and did it, we would be giving up agency over our own project that we would, you know, I mean, how would that have even worked and how would we have been compromised and and what would people have thought about it if they found out about it? So, we just said, "We're out." I mean, we took it far enough, but things started to feel like they were coming in on us because think about it. You get the postcards, we are watching you, and then you get a guy that crashes your party. Then he brings somebody to your office and then they persist and they're talking about a cemetery at midnight. And if you want to go there, I'll tell you another story that happened and it involves Steven Spielberg. Let's hold that till after the break. But last last question because we have a lot of Spielberg to cover. >> Oh yeah, that's there's your transition I guess. Yeah. Right. >> But before we go, >> yeah, >> are there any shows where you've spotted what you'd consider implanted information? >> I I think that's impossible to know. I mean, one of the reasons Brent and I started to do Soundlight and Frequency as a podcast, we were less trying to create another podcast, but we wanted a form a format that would become an active investigation because we know what happened to us. And it doesn't make any sense to think that, hey, if Freriedman and Zable turn it down, that's it. Let's walk away. Let's never approach anybody in Hollywood ever again about this. That wouldn't make any sense, right? So our feeling was by telling these stories because you know listen um like I said I used to be the youngest guy now I'm probably the oldest guy. I I what do I gain by taking these stories and never telling them. So I feel like it's time to I feel all of us who have been impacted in the phenomenon have an obligation to bear witness to our piece of it. And if enough of us bear witness to our pieces we assemble a mosaic of contact and disclosure. So I'm only offering my piece of it to find to so that my part of the mosaic is in there and I'm encouraging other people to come forward if they if they can and tell us their story in the same way that there are whistleblowers like David Grush and and uh you know even what Lou Alzando has done and all that. If there are other people coming forward in Hollywood that tells us something. So, by virtue of telling the story to you and and for Brent and I to be telling it in our own words, um what we're really saying to people is, hey, if you got a story like that, here's a safe place to tell it. And we've already had one person come forward, the director of Lawnmower Man, um, a man named Brett Leonard, uh, has contacted us and we've done a show with him and he basically said that at roughly the same time he was contacted by someone who, uh, said he was with the Defense Intelligence Agency. And so, uh, we are we're hearing and and we've heard we're developing another case where somebody else said that they had been approached. So maybe it wasn't just us. >> It It definitely wasn't. >> Um All right. We'll come back and we'll talk about how Spielberg is an asset. >> Yeah. >> I've heard you, I think, use a film metaphor about disclosure being hard cut versus a dissolve. >> Yes. And the hard cut sounds like it would be difficult on society talking about like the Robertson panel or the the Brookings report. Are we in the middle of a dissolve now? >> I I mean, if we're talking about it that way, uh it's a great metaphor. In in um in a movie, you can either do a slow dissolve from one scene to the other or you can just cut to it, right? And so in the disclosure world, the way that would be a hard cut would be you're not thinking anything is happening. The president or the pope or somebody walks out and says, "We're not alone. We have bodies. Here's one of them right now." Right. And and everybody goes, "Oh my god." I mean, that's the hard cut. Yes. The slow dissolve is you slowly dip your toe in the water. You slowly leak this out, right? Um, and when Richard Dolan and I wrote AD after disclosure, this was before uh the New York Times article of 2017. And so we we were like, you know, a hard cut seems more likely because that that would mean something happened like a a Phoenix Lights incident would happen today and we'd have we'd all have our cell phones and we'd instantly talk about it on social media. So that's the president at the podium. >> Yeah, that's that's the hard cut. I think we are living in a slow dissolve right now. I mean, the evidence to me seems pretty strong. You've got you've got that New York Times article that kicks things off, but what have we had since? We've had the Luwellandos, the David Grushes. We've had uh you know, every day seems to bring a new whistleblower or a new book from somebody. And these are, you know, if you look at the age of disclosure uh documentary that was just out, there's like 30 people who have actual credentials who are talking about it. And yet you can go talk to somebody on the street and go, "What do you think about this?" They're not completely aware yet. No. But they're closer to aware than they were. I think we're in slow drip disclosure right now. I think it's a slow dissolve.

>> And do you believe they're telling us the complete truth? >> No. >> No. Do you think some of the information dripping is false? >> That's a different question. I I can't judge it. I don't see anything that I think that is dripping that is completely false. Instead, what I see are people like Hal Putoff who say, you know, I've told you this much stuff, but in realities there's that much stuff that I know and there's a whole bunch of guys like him. Almost all the guys in the age of disclosure thing. That doesn't mean anybody's lying. It just means they haven't been given the Ali Ali income free to talk. Um, I saw one show that you did with James Fox and he said exactly what I believe and you guys were talking about it, which is, "Hey, if you want to resolve this thing, just absolve everybody of their NDAs. Just let anybody come forward and and testify. We'll get to the bottom of it." Just >> kind They kind of need to because, you know, if your statement is cleared through the Pentagon, you still have your clearance, you're still on the payroll, you still have your pension. I'm skeptical of what you're telling me. >> Yeah. >> And cuz it's, you know, I've been at this a while and it all goes back to Dodie in the 80s and Bill Moore and it's just been a mess ever since. I don't know who to believe. Um, it is I I you are not wrong. I mean, the frustration that you must feel and and and your listeners must feel is what I feel, which is it. You don't have to tell me everything to tell me something. And so we may even not need to use the word disclosure with the capital D because I don't believe anybody's walking out to a podium and saying uh to the media uh there's a five terabyte hard drive for each of you with all the world secrets on it. That's not going to happen. I don't expect that to happen. But I another word that would be good for me would be confirmation. I' I'd like to at least have somebody in authority confirm we're not alone. You know that Roswell thing? Yeah, that happened. Um, we're looking into it. A lot of this is classified. We're not going to tell you everything, but there you go. That would be better than nothing. >> It would. I mean, if you look at Obama and Trump couldn't be more different people. Correct. And yet they both kind of said aliens are real. >> They got in a fight about it. They got about a lot of stuff, but those are two very different men say the same thing. >> Yeah. >> And um Edgar Mitchell's is a very an astronaut says Roswell happened. >> Yep. >> So it's it's very frustrating. Um you were talking earlier before we came on. It was a nice story about how Alzando said, "If you knew what I know, you'd be very somber." >> Yeah. Why would we be somber? >> Well, you'd almost have to. He He's not amplified on that, but you'd be somber. I I I suppose he is saying if you knew the things I knew, they're a little disturbing, and that would cause you to be somber about the whole thing. Uh, and by the way, um, I I want to answer more of that, but there's a little quick sidebar here. My my partner Brent Freriedman on Dark Skies when he was a young man um grew up next to the secretary of energy in the Reagan administration, fellow named John Harrington. And Brent was hired in 1981 to drive Harrington's cars across the country uh because he had just taken a job with the Reagan administration in the Navy department, right? And then he was later promoted. And um John was one of Reagan's John Harrington was one of Reagan's great friends. And uh like I said, uh Brent Brent didn't like me didn't have the world's friendliest dad, but John Harrington taught him how to throw a ball and all that. They were neighbors and friends. and Brent got to DC and I'm really condensing, but Harrington uh later that night after dinner after the cars were delivered and everything on the back porch uh with just Brent uh told him that he had been uh briefed at an underground facility in West Virginia for several months and that he cried himself to sleep every night. >> Wow. And Brent said wait many things like why are you telling me and why you know whatever but Brent said why would you cry yourself to sleep and Harrington said because I have two daughters and this is the world they're going to grow up in. >> What did he mean by that? >> He well he didn't give the specifics like none of these guys do. He just said that the reality that he was encountering was disturbing and um and and he was shaken by it. And uh according to Brent Harrington was a strict Calvinist, very religious man. Um he said something else that was quite strange. He said uh Aliens was done on day three, but he was there for a couple of months. So what else was it? I mean, I'd like to know that. Also, though, in the in in times uh to come, uh Harrington has um not commented on this, of course. Uh but uh the idea that he told Brent that he had been briefed at a West Virginia underground facility. There were no known West Virginia underground facilities in 1981 when he told it to him. >> No, I've been racking my brain trying to think about >> But a decade later, they broke the story of Greenbryer. >> That's right. hotel, >> the Greenbr Hotel, >> which was a large underground facility in West Virginia where they were going to evacuate Congress in a nuclear war. >> That's true. And you guys, there's an episode on that. >> And uh when David Grush was at my house practicing his interview that he would do for News Nation with Ross Colt, I asked him, "Do you know John Harrington?" And uh and uh Grush said, "Oh, I know John Harrington." And most recently, Grush has called Brent Freriedman and said, "Uh, do you think we can get, uh, you know, I can I get an audience with John Fre with John Harrington? Can you help me?" So, obviously, they're taking the Harrington story that Brent has told for years. This is the story, by the way, that when when I first met Brent, he told me that story and that's why we became fast friends and decided to do Dark Skies together. >> Wow. Wow. And it turns out it's a in my view a true story. You don't try to subpoena or otherwise get John Harrington to tell his story to the Congress. I mean, Grush works for the House Oversight Committee and he's asking Brent about John Harrington. That's pretty credible stuff. >> Yeah, it is. >> Right. So, anyway, to your question about somber, I tell you that only because Yeah. If uh you're crying yourself to sleep at night, that's something has made you somber at best. Right now, I like to be an optimist about life. Right? I have come down. Look, I understand there are two points of view on disclosure. One is that people have a right to know and the other is uh what Jack Nicholson says in a few good men in words written by Aaron Sorcin, which is you can't handle the truth. Okay. Now, I happen to think both are true. >> I agree. Okay. And that's what Dark Skies was about. We made it a saliloquy between these two guys. Yeah. Uh you can't handle the truth, people have right to know. >> So I do believe that although I have come down strongly >> today, I feel like the clock has run out. You know, 80 years is plenty. Uh the people do have a right to know, good, bad or indifferent. So I'm in favor of tell me, you know, let me decide if I can handle it or not. I just feel like we have to know.

Well, tell tell us about after disclosure because you don't argue about UFOs or aliens in the book. No, >> it's this is what happens after. >> Yes, I think Richard Dolan I and I became friends because I called him up after I read one of his earlier National Security State books and we decided to write this book because we said, you know, there's been like 5,000 books trying to prove UFOs are real. Let's not write that. Let's not write that book right now. Let's assume other people have done that. Let's write the one book nobody has written. Let's write the book about what happens after we all agree they're real. >> Yes. >> To me, that's pretty interesting. What's the world going to look like? >> And so we and and you know Richard Dolan by uh by reputation and all that. He's he's a brilliant historian and thinker and he knows more about what's happened historically in this topic than than most people or anybody. And uh I feel very privileged that for an entire year uh Rich and I sort of had this ongoing discussion with each other where we would call each other up and go, you know, I was just thinking what about this and what about that? Trying to ask ourselves what is really going to happen after disclosure. Now I say that and I always have to buy it back a little bit because it does depend on what's disclosed. True. If you get a little disclosure, like a confirmation, yeah, maybe people will rock on. If you get full disclosure and somebody goes, "And by the way, there are 17 different species here. Some of them are interdimensional. Some of them are time travel or whatever. Some crazy ass >> disclosure. You can't handle that. >> That's going to freak some people out." So, it depends. I just I really don't know. Um, but Rich and I uh were were able to talk about that a lot. And the one thing that we sort of came to a conclusion about uh that we tried to implement which is if you're trying to look for clues about the future try to look a little bit in the past as well. So for example 9/11 happens what happens? We close the stock market for a few days right that'll probably happen. Uh the great depression happens. What happens then? We close the banks down so that people don't withdraw all their money. That'll probably happen. Y >> um there will probably be a time of great disturbance. How great? Can't say yet. Um but we'll probably get through it. We'll probably muddle through it. Um and and that's I think where we come down on it. But but I I just think that the thing that we both discovered together and it was such a I I would call it joyous. Maybe it was joy. Maybe it wasn't joyous to him, but it was to me because I thought I'm really involved in thinking about something that people just The only people I could think of that were thinking about the things I was thinking of at the time were probably the gatekeepers, you know, the secret keepers, you know, who have to think about those things. But I I wasn't seeing any evidence anybody else was thinking about it. Let's face it, if there's a disclosure that that just starts with we are not alone and escalates to and some of them are here now. That's a big piece of disclosure by itself, right? It's going to affect the economy, stock market, banks, etc. But it's going to affect law. What What about aviation law? What about all the pilots that got fired because they said they saw a UFO? Um what about the military? What are we going to prepare for with the military? What about education? What are we going to tell our kids? And what about all these history books of the last 80 years? Are we going to rewrite all those? Uh what about energy? These things are not flying around on gasoline. >> Nope. >> Right. So just pick anything in the world. What about culture? What you and I are doing right now. How will that change? Well, it'll change a lot. We'll have we won't be speculating as much. will be saying, "Geez, that's pretty outstage over there and going, damn, I can't deny that's real." So, I I do think it's a big deal. Um, anyone who minimizes it is probably wrong. On the other hand, there seems to be evidence with so much happening all the time, it is so disturbing in our, you know, the world seems more complex and strange than ever. So, probably it might not be as bad, but it depends. You know, you always got to go. It depends.

>> Didn't David Grush kind of get us part of the way there? >> He did. >> And nothing happened. >> No. >> And we've had a few hearings since then. We've had and David Fraver and all these >> nothing's happened. >> I I sh I'm frustrated by that as well. Well, I'm I'm curious. What? Why do you think nothing happened? You've talked to so many interesting people and and spent so much time thinking about it. >> I think I mean we can only speculate, but I think there's a lot of water being muddied and Lockheed and Rathon are very important, >> right? >> I I think that's really who's driving the narrative. Um my old uh podcast partner Ross Coltart said on our last show together he said I can now state categorically um that the tic tac is made by Loheed Martin. It's Loheed Martin technology he said. >> Yep. >> I don't believe that but I I don't know. Do you? >> I do. >> You do? >> I do. I do. >> All right. Well, see that's interesting. just if you notice on those videos. >> So you think the tic tac that's zipping around and do that that we do that now? We have that. >> I I think so. >> Yeah. >> But notice the videos that are being released now from the Navy are cropped in. So we can no longer see the angles and speed. Yeah. >> They're cropped. So you can't use trigonometry anymore. >> Yeah. where we've seen one video that definitely looks like a UFO, but when you do the trigonometry, it's it's a balloon going 40 miles an hour, but on the screen it looks like it's crazy, but it's just parallax. Um, so I think 99% of it could be explained. It's the 1% that, you know, that concerns me. And I just don't think full disclosure is ever going to be there. I mean, I think that the government probably has some type of anti-gravity research at least, if not technology, cheap energy, free energy, but you can't let your adversaries know you have it.

>> Let's let's extend that argument though on full disclosure. >> It also depends on what full disclosure is. Of course, I I the assumption when Rich and I started writing our book was, you know, we were in a top- down world, and we still are to a certain extent, that the people who know things don't like to share and whatever, but a lot of the tools of obs observing the reality around us have devolved into the public sphere. Yes, the government and private enterprise probably have better versions of a lot of things, but we have a lot of stuff now that allow us to see what the reality of the world we live in is. And I think one thing that's changed about disclosure is we may be living in a world that can also go bottom up. That more and more people can be involved in helping to solve this problem. And and I have thought for years uh don't sit around and wait for the government to tell you what they know. They they will tell us probably kicking and screaming. >> Totally agree. Um bottom up is the way I'd like to see it happen. I don't want to hear from any more senior military intelligence people. I'm done with that. >> I feel that. I feel you. Yeah. >> I want the guy who sweeps the floor, who grow who who smuggles out a piece of something. >> Yeah. >> And risks his life and job and blows the whistle. That's the guy I want. The Bob Lazars. Yeah, >> you know who I find the most credible and there's plenty of holes in his story and um it's been semicconsistent, but that type of story. >> Well, AJ, the frustration I think is that we a lot of people if you read the internet and and Reddit and X, there's a lot of people going, "Yeah, just, you know, you people are all just grifting liars and show us the" and I agree with that. I'm part of the show me the saucer crowd. I I want to see it. But part of the problem with the current uh situation we have where people are are fessing up from within government is nobody's allowing nobody allowed Lou Alisando to take a piece of the Roswell wreckage out of the Pentagon. I mean that's not how it works. No. >> Right. I mean if if you do get to talk about this that's all you get to do. You don't have the evidence. The people who have the evidence have it and they're not sharing it and they're not sharing their work. So it it there is a prepundonderance of evidence, if you will, that is given to us by people who claim to have seen and know things. And it it's pretty extreme, but nothing is going to change the world and turn it upside down like authentic real evidence, >> right? >> Or another mass sighting potentially where everybody stops what they're doing and says, "What is going on here?" And by the way, um, just to tell you what I'm I'm kind of working on, one of my latest projects, I'm doing it with Lionsgate. It's called Undeniable, and it's exactly that premise. The premise is, um, it's seen from the world of a television newscast. All right. Write what you know, right? Um, and they they actually hired me to write it as a it's a seven-part scripted podcast. We have we start production next month. There's cast already. uh that's that been brought in because they want to create the IP to sell the TV series because nobody wants to spend any money uh anymore. So that's fine. But the premise of it is exactly what we were just talking about which is in the opening episode there's a plane crash. Okay, it's a mid-air collision and the the the news people are covering the mid-air collision, but the thing is it's a mid-air collision with an anomalous object and uh some kid on the plane has taken a video of the midair collision and has uh texted it out as they're crashing on the Indianapolis freeway system. So, suddenly the news people start to cover a plane crash, but now they're covering an anomalous object. And so what I'm I'm trying to do in that story is tell the story that takes you from day one um nobody knows anything to day seven we're all agreed we're not alone. You know the week that could change the world. And I bring that up only because I want to say the thing that is going to change our world is probably something you and I aren't thinking of right now. >> Of course. >> Yeah. That's just the way things are. There's something lurking like I I didn't see the New York Times writing that article in 2017. Nobody saw that coming, >> right? I mean, who who saw that, right? >> I mean, the Air Force probably didn't. I mean, we knew, you know, it was great. Tom Dong the year before it announced to the Stars Academy, >> but you know, we things weren't happening in an intense way and the pace has picked up obviously. >> So, um, and and and I don't think everyone saw David Grush coming. >> No. >> But again, you're so right. I mean, David Grush, I believe, is telling the truth. Uh, he seems to have the proper credentials and all that, but uh, I wish he had been able to get out with a piece of the craft or, you know, with a biological sample or something because I want to see it.

>> Well, since since his statements have to be cleared through the Pentagon. >> Yeah. >> Why don't just the Pentagon give the statement? >> Because the president needs to tell them to do it. And so far, President Trump has not told them to do it. Now, you could we could have a long conversation that would get us both attacked on the media for being both pro and anti- you can't even speak about Trump anymore in in an internet world, but I mean, he has the power to do that now. What he's doing instead >> and he promised to do it. >> Yeah. So, I don't know, maybe he will, maybe he won't. Um, but that it would take something of that magnitude. It would. He promised to release lots of files on a lot of subjects. That seemed to hit some Yes. hit some uh bumps. >> Yeah, they did. >> Um, how long do you think Stephen Spielberg has been an asset for the IC? >> That's an interesting question. First of all, of course, his his movie Disclosure Day is certainly interestingly timed. I I doubt that the people at Universal that are putting it out are doing anything that other than a victory dance in the office complex because how great to have people talking about UFO and UAP uh when files and videos are being released. Um >> the reviews on the are amazing. >> Yeah. And I haven't seen it yet. >> Yeah. I I would say this about Spielberg. A couple of things. first. He has always denied being an asset of anybody. So, I'm just course of course I I'm just saying let's >> and I was half joking, >> right? >> But it feels like he knows something. >> Well, okay. So, let's just state for the record. He says no. You know, in his interviews that he's doing for his movie, he says, uh, you know, I've just been studying this a long time and and, uh, these are the conclusions I've reached. And I think it's very clear that if you're Steven Spielberg, people do seek you out and tell you things if they know your interest. So he's had some great conversations as have you and as have I. We've not everyone who said anything to you is have you put on the air and vice versa. He knows some things. Now I will give you a specific story though. Uh when we were uh shooting the dark skies, two specific stories. when we were shooting the dark skies pilot uh we were creating a crop circle uh north of Holly uh north of uh LA and um it was hard to create a crop circle. So these people that go these guys with a board and two guys have created all the crop circles. I I'm skeptical because we had like 14 people on it for two days and it still looked like crap, you know, compared to, you know, some of the real ones. But >> there were a couple I could not debunk and I tried to. >> Yeah. So who knows? Anyway, what I do know is that uh our crew that was out scouting locations for the crop circle uh scene uh ended up taking a break that night. I was not on that uh that location scout, but Brent was. And uh Brent was talking to our director, Toby Hooper. And you probably know Toby Hooper because he directed Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Poltergeist. And he knows Stephen Spielberg very well. and Toby Hooper, who is a man uh he's he's passed on, but I did shoot the pilot with him, and I know him to be a very very direct and honest guy. I mean, he never pulled a punch about anything ever. So, but he told Brent, uh when Brent said to him, you know, you're finally going to get to do something Spielberg, you know, hasn't done. You're going to do something first. you're going to make a crop circle. Which by the way, Spielberg is making a crop circle or did make one for disclosure day, but this is a while ago. And uh and Toby said, "Yeah, well, you know, yeah, but I'm never going to be ahead of Stephen because you know Stephen knows a lot of things." And Brunt's like, "Well, like what?" That by the way, that was a very bad Toby Hooper impersonation. I won't do that anymore. But what Toby But what Toby's told Brent is that Stephen Spielberg had told him that he had been given direct information in a in a in a what I want to say in a semi in a unofficial capacity that that people had given him information for close encounters. He said that Toby said that to Brent, >> which of course you he hired J Alan Heinik as a consultant. He used Heinik's Close Encounters. He coined that phrase, >> right? >> And had a cameo in the film. >> True. But I think what Toby was saying to Brent is, yeah, of course he brought Heinick in, right? But Heinik, Heinik's last words, or one of his last words, uh, according to Don Schmidt, the Roswell researcher who worked with him on Kufos, one of Heinik's last words were, "Why won't they tell me even now?" >> Really? >> Yeah. So, I think we we know that Heinik knew a lot because he investigated a lot. Yeah. But he didn't know a lot because the you know the guys uh you know came around you know and told him things like Heinik pressed um the secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld who famously had a standing desk and he was in his office and challenged him why you know I've worked loyally for you guys. I've done what you've asked me to do and he according to Heinik who told this to Don Schmidt Rumsfeld comes around. See, that's the problem, though, because it's three sources, whatever. It's still a good story. Heck uh watches as Rumsfeld comes around his standing desk and gets in his face and says, "Don't you ever ask me about that again." So, Heinik didn't know everything. What Kobe was implying to Brent or said to Brent, not implied, Spielberg's heard from real people, the people that know They've talked to him. So, you know, I don't know what that means, but that was the allegation. Now, I like, as we talked about, I I did work with him uh on the taken series. And so, I I we had some meetings talking about UFOs. And my take on hearing him talk about UFOs is he's like you and me, super interested guy who's read a bunch of books and talked to a lot of important people and has a lot of ideas and theories and everything. I didn't get from him that he knew things I didn't know.

>> Well, Close Encounters, that's what in 1977. Yeah. >> He basically covered the planet the planet Serpo legend. >> He sure did. Or started it >> before anyone heard of that. Um, which I thought was a Dodie story. >> Yeah. But what's I think interesting about Spielberg who's he is the UFO alien director for sure is now I don't know what disclosure Dave what the theme is going to be but it feels like his point of view has gotten a little darker over the years when you go from close encounters with >> sure >> it's a it's a friendly exchange then you get to war of the worlds >> I I think you make a great point AJ I my take on um disclosure day what it means is uh Steven Spielberg is 79 years old as we record this. He's going to be 80 near Christmas this year. Okay. Uh he over the time from close encounters actually scratch that from when he was a kid in Phoenix where his first movie as a kid was about UFOs. >> Was it? >> Yes. 2 hours and 30 minutes of UFO Spielberg kid movie. >> Wow. >> And then he made Close Encounters in 7677. Anyway, from that moment until Disclosure Day, he's had his name on as a writer, a director, or a producer on 30 alien projects. 30. >> Wow. Okay. >> I believe that people should look at Disclosure Day, and I'm not going to comment on the film one way or the other at this point. Let's let people have a, you know, a pleasurable experience having it envelop them. But as you watch it, I would ask people to consider this is likely to be Spielberg's closing argument about UFOs. Okay, this is the one where he's put all the things that he thinks he knows into one basket, wrote up the story on his own, 55 pages single spaced, gave it to his uh his uh writer and expanded it into this film, and now he's directed it with loving care. when you see disclosure day, that's what he thinks is true because he's he's been interviewed multiple times and he keeps saying this is the true story. Well, why would you say it's the true story if it's only what you think you know because you've talked to a few people and read some books. you know, he he's saying it's a true story because he believes what he's saying and and you know, without spoiling anything, it's very clear that what he's saying is there's a a a private cutout organization, whether it's not Majestic 12, it's called something else in the movie, but there's something out there that's in charge of all this stuff. Sure. That there are uh uh abductions that have happened. they start in childhood uh and uh that there are human alien hybrids out there. That's what it the movie is saying from the trailer and from from the interviews everybody's been doing. >> So there's no spoiler for me saying that. But he must believe it. >> What would lead him to believe that? Because he >> he knows things. >> Well, that's the question, isn't it? What would lead him to believe that? Well, he's he's either heard it from a trusted source. Listen, I I'm not going to be the guy that's on a crusade to say he was read into any program or not. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Um, but I would be the person to say he's thought about it probably as much as you and I have thought about it, maybe more, right? And he's had a I've been I've been blessed in that I've been able to talk about UFOs to all kinds of great people. I've talked to UF about UFOs to Buzz Aldrin, to Stan Lee, to Carl Sean, as we said. I I it's a blessing and I'm I'm happy and grateful that it happened to me. And for Spielberg, it's probably two or three times that. He's probably talked to everybody about it. So, it's not impossible that Steven Spielberg has come up with some pretty interesting thoughts on his own. He that he didn't need to be briefed in about. However, he is saying things that sure make him sound like he's confident of what he's saying.

>> I mean, I picture that meeting with uh with JC and a 28-year-old Spielberg and they say, "Stephen, you want to be the biggest director in the world?" >> Yeah. >> Here's what we need you to do. >> Well, you you've hit my soft spot because I know that what happened to me felt very authentic. Yeah. And at the same time, um, it's it's quite obvious that nobody only went to Freriedman and Zable on Dark Skies. If if what happened to me was an authentic experience. I'm not the only guy that that's ever happened to. There were people it happened to before and people that happened to after. I don't know who all they are, of course, but uh, so you you'd have to at least put that on the table and say that's certainly a possibility. And you you hear those rumors all the time, whether it's Close Encounters or ET or these other movies, there's always the rumor of there's some government man that

Says he got a lot of that right. "Yeah. Well, that's what they told me."

"Um, but, but, but again, and you, you've, you're very, very well-versed on this, as is your audience. You've also got the, the entire historical precedent of Richard Dodie and his disinformation."

"Yeah."

"And the fact that people have been disinforming. So, for example, my own story doesn't mean it's true. Uh, but it does, it doesn't mean it's not official. It, it may very well be have been an official approach to us for another reason. Um, either to feed us this information that we would put in the show, or to find out what we would do if fed disinformation."

"During the middle of it, Brent and I felt like we, we didn't call it a multimedia role-playing game when we were in the middle of it. In the middle of it, we said, 'I feel like we're in a movie, and I don't know how this movie ends, and I don't know if it's a thriller or a comedy.' I mean, that's how we kind of looked at it."

"Yeah."

"You know, and, and."

"Yeah."

"Well, the cemetery twist is cra—that's the craziest part of that story."

"That's crazy. Oh, I, I'm going to give you the short version of this. There's one other weird thing that happened in Dark Skies in the summer before, well, no, while shooting the pilot. All right. I did get those postcards that to me. Let's put a pin in that. Those postcards: 'We are watching you.' There were two of them. Um, put a pin in that."

"While I was on the set one day, I get a call from the Columbia TV executive, and he says, 'Uh, hey, listen. Um, there's another project shooting here, uh, on the lot, and, uh, you got to get your guys out of the black suits right now.' And I said, 'What are you talking about?' Because we had Men in Black in their black suits. They were the agents of Majestic 12 in our script."

"And he said, 'Well, the, there's a movie. It's a comedy. It's, uh, Men in Black, and, uh, they don't want you in the, in black suits. Your guys in black suits.'"

"I proceeded to say, 'Well, you know, this goes back to the '50s, you know?' And I started talking about Gray Barker and, you know, and Mory Island and all the stuff you were talking about. And I'm, and, you know, I was pretty well-versed on this at the time. And I'm citing chapter and verse."

"And he cuts me off and he goes, 'Bryce, let me put this in words that you can understand.' Which, by the way, is one of the most condescending things anybody could ever say to you. But, you know, I'm from Hollywood. I, it's not the, it's not the most condescending thing that's ever been said to me. But he, he says, 'Let me put this in words that you can understand.'"

"And I'm, this is an exact quote. I am not mincing one word. This is the exact quote. He said, 'Get your actors out of the black suits today, or we will shut down your production and burn the negative.'"

"Wow."

"So, there was no room for debate."

"Nope."

"They were the bigger, you know, this was being produced by Amblin, um, and, uh, and Barry Sonnenfeld was the director and, uh, Spielberg. Again, I'm not, I'm not pointing a finger at Spielberg or Barry Sonnenfeld. I'm talking about what executives told me and what lawyers told them and whatever, and whatever."

"U, so we, we had to accommodate them."

"Because that wasn't an empty threat. They would have shot you down."

"Yes, they would. Yeah. And so we felt very powerless. And remember, at the time they're doing this, we've just been picked up for, I mean, we're shooting a pilot. I mean, we're going to shut down. We're going to burn your negative. But."

"Men in Black is in a black suit every week. I know it. Uh, it's crazy, but it gets crazier."

"So, we said, 'Okay.' So, we shut down production briefly and, uh, started putting everybody in blue and green and brown suits. And we started looking into, uh, and we couldn't call them Men in Black. We were told under no circumstances can you call them Men in Black. So, we had to change the name, do a find and replace in all of our script, uh, to call them cloakers, is what we called them. Cloakers."

"Cloakers. So when you see cloakers in a Dark Skies episode, that's why. So we did that. Uh, and we, we thought, well, this is over. Okay. We did what we needed to do."

"Flash forward one year. Now it's the summer of '96. We are on the schedule. We are the lead show on NBC Saturday night. It's a home run. Okay. Couldn't be better. And we're going to produce 13 hours. It's already been purchased for that, okay, by NBC to Sony/Columbia TV. And, um, we receive a call from the same executive who says, 'I have to come over and talk to you.'"

"And he comes over and he says, 'Uh, listen, um, I've just come from a room full of lawyers and we have a problem.' And the problem was, um, they, things had escalated. Well, Brent and I thought we were home free. Things had escalated. Lawyers were talking to lawyers. And again, I don't know, I don't know how this drives back to the creative team of Men in Black, but lawyers were talking to lawyers who were talking to executives who were talking to us finally. And, um, we were presented a list of 19 non-negotiable demands for what had to happen in our pilot. We had to, they wanted us to reshoot our pilot."

"19?"

"Yeah."

"Like what?"

"No elevators is an example. Men in Black had an elevator."

"No elevators."

"Couldn't I couldn't have an elevator."

"Because you had one going to a secret?"

"Yes. No secret, uh, no secret organizations in Washington D.C. Couldn't have that. Um, and here's a good one. No autopsy. No alien autopsy. Now, I'd already put an alien autopsy in Official Denial on my sci-fi film. Uh, we had an autopsy in Dark Skies, but what was The X-Files but an autopsy every few weeks with Mulder and Scully doing them, right? I mean, nobody owns autopsies, but we were told you cannot have an autopsy. Uh, you can't have a farmer. I was told there can be no farmer in Dark Skies because we have a farmer in Men in Black. And it, it was pretty frightening. Um, and, and what happened is they told us, uh, we had to do these things. And so Dark Skies was scheduled to have 11 days of re-shooting. 11 days on a pilot that NBC had already bought and produced and had delivered to them. Now we're having 11 days of re-shoots."

"And."

"So the aired pilot was that."

"It hadn't aired yet. It was going to air in a couple of months."

"But I mean, the one that we saw was was."

"The re-shot. Yeah."

"Oh, no."

"If you want an ultimate irony, by the way, though, when they finally put the DVD out for Dark Skies, the people who put it out, Shout Factory, called me up and said, 'So, uh, we're putting your DVD together. There's two versions of the pilot here. What are they?' Interestingly enough, Sony, without knowing that they did it, had sent the original version of our pilot out internationally. And, and then there's the NBC version that finally got aired. And if you, if you get the Dark Skies DVD set, it's like going to film school. You see these two different."

"They're both on there."

"They're both on it."

"Oh, that's brilliant."

"And which you prefer?"

"Well, it's funny. Um, okay. It, it was bad to have this done. Uh, and before I answer which I prefer, you need to understand something. In the middle of this, while Brent and I were sort of pushing back, going, 'What's going on here?' We, we were called into the, the Columbia TV office and said, 'You guys better lawyer up because this is getting serious because, uh, you know, there are accusations that you've stolen your script.'"

"Wow."

"And of course, nothing could be further, of course, from the truth. And there was a moment, you know, how you and I are sitting across the table from each other. There was a moment when Brent and I are in the Dark Skies offices at two in the morning, sitting across from each other. And so, and I remember the conversation. It was like, 'So, um, what are you going to do when we can't work in, uh, Hollywood anymore?' And, uh, I said, 'Well, maybe I'll go back into journalism.' Um, and he said, 'Who's going to hire you to be a journalist if you've just been fired from your show?'"

"And, and the thing that they were going to do, they wanted Sony to give the money back to NBC and not produce the show at all. And there's a nice twist in it in that, remember we had 19 non-negotiable demands. Don Olmire bought the show for NBC. He used to run it. He's passed on. And Don Olmire, when he heard about this, well, it's very interesting. I got sent to NBC where I was supposed to sell the 11 days of re-shooting. And I was like, why would I do that, right? You know, but they, they made me go there and, uh, say it's going to be better. Um, which I'll get to in a minute. But Olmire during all this basically said, um, 'So I bought this thing. I've got it in the office here. We're going to air it. Screw him. I didn't make any deal to get rid of it. We're going to air this thing.'"

"I love this guy."

"And so I know, I didn't know this until just very recently. It's a, it's a new discovery. I didn't understand why the non-negotiable demands became, 'All right, you can still do your show.' We, and Brent and I, by the way, came up with another notebook about this big explaining, you know, the creation of Dark Skies and all that because our lawyer told us to. And, and so between that notebook sort of explaining things and Olmire saying, 'I'm going to air it anyway. Screw you guys.' Um, it now became, 'All right, well, we're still going to do a re-shoot. You know, we're going to, we're going to try to accommodate all parties.' All right."

"And so what Brent and I decided to do in the aftermath of that is we said to ourselves, 'Okay, we could pout. We could hold our breath till we turn blue because we have every right to. We are being abused big time right now. But if we're going to re-shoot for 11 days, let's go re—and some of those scenes they're going to reshoot are just to replace black suits with green and blue and brown suits. Let's go read those scenes over and ask ourselves, could we make them any better?' So, we sucked it up and did some judicious rewriting. And so, this is a long way to answer your question, but which version do I prefer? It's hard for me to tell because we, we said, 'Well, you got to love your first born, right?' So, I, that one's great, but we did fix a few things in the second one. Um, we mourned the idea like Majestic 12 originally, you got on an elevator in the state, in the Capitol building, and went down below, and that's where Majestic was in. So, I loved that most in the original. Uh, but in the revision that they made, a shoot, uh, Majestic, you had to drive out of town into Virginia and clear a gate and drive your car in, you know, which wasn't nearly as good. No. But on the other hand, certain things didn't get touched. Like the Betty and Barney Hill scene we had in, it's the same in both versions. The, uh, the autopsy got some rewriting, uh, because they made us make a few changes."

"This feels overly aggressive, very another production company."

"Very well. The only reason it happened is if, if, um, Dark Skies, Dark Skies had been at one company and Men in Black had been at a completely different company, both companies would have said to the other, 'F you. We're not, we're not doing anything about it.' But they were at the same company. And so because they were at the same company, suddenly there was somebody besides."

"There, there was somebody to appeal it to. And, and, you know, let's face it, Dark Skies, I love it. Thank God they gave us 40 million to make these episodes. And I, I, not me, they gave 40 million to produce it. And, um, and I'm proud of it. I'm extremely proud of it. But I understand that Men in Black at the time was a huge film. You know, you had Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones and you had."

"I don't buy it. But."

"You're an unaired pilot. Yeah. And that's a guaranteed blockbuster. What do you care what they're doing over here? The only reason I tell you the story is I, you know, as I said, we all have to sort of, I, we have to sort of just tell our story, right? And so I don't think you can analyze the Dark Skies story with the JC and the captain and the cemetery at midnight and the 'We are watching you' postcard without also saying that in the middle, two months before the show actually aired on NBC, this happened. You know, you can draw your own conclusions. Are they related? I don't know. They could be. They might not be. I, I just know living it, Brent and I felt like we are, we're done. We're our careers are ruined. We're out of here."

"As we're recording this, two of the hottest movies in theaters right now are created by YouTubers."

"Ah, there you go. So, this is, this is our time has come, which."

"Yes."

"Means Dark Skies could come back."

"It could. I'd be, again, I don't own it, even though I created it. Sony owns it. Uh, I, I would love a phone call. You know, I said one of the great things about Hollywood is the phone can ring. I'd love the phone to ring and somebody go, 'Hey, uh, you guys want to reboot Dark Skies?' I'd love it. Um, but they could do whatever they want. Sony's execs are listening right now. They're listening. They're fans. They're fans."

"Yeah. Please bring it on. Uh, but, you know, uh, you never know. Um."

"And I went in on that project, Sony."

"Uh, yes, you should be. You need to be a consultant."

"Did, um."

"Did they move you to Saturday night?"

"No, we started on Saturday night."

"Is that, was that a good slot?"

"No. No. Because there were no DVRs. It was a death slot. Yeah. Uh, first of all, they made us be at 8 o'clock. We are very violent. So, we shouldn't have been on at 8 o'clock. That's family hour. We should have been the 10 o'clock show. Um, and, and before DVRs, let me just ask you, on most Saturday nights when you're a young person, are you trying to stay home on Saturday night?"

"No."

"And so, what happened is you immediately, you know, we appealed to a lot of people. I mean, people were like really intrigued by it, but then they'd miss an episode or whatever because they had a life. Well, they didn't get to rewatch that episode. They couldn't watch it on YouTube. They couldn't DVR it. They couldn't, there's nothing. So, they just, so, it's not a good way to make a habit. So, it was bad. Um, but, but it wasn't for lack of trying. I give, I mean, NBC is the hero in this thing. Not only did Olmire save us, um, but NBC put, you know, you know, believed in the show enough to, you know, do everything possible to make it succeed. And, and I, I loved that. I thought that was great."

"You know, it is interesting. You say maybe they'll call you about a remake. You know what I keep hearing is I tell this story to people and you'll probably hear it yourself. People would go, 'You know, I don't know about this Dark Skies thing, but you should make a movie about what happened to those guys because that's kind of what it feels like sometimes.'"

"That's a good movie, too."

"Right? And, and the, the only thing I always say when people ask me say something like that to me, I go, 'Yeah, well, we'd have to do a slight rewrite. The movie would be Bryce and Brent take the deal.'"

"I'm curious about the deal because."

"You know, if they want you to put certain storylines in, that's different to me than force you to take things out."

"Right?"

"Like those 19 items that bothers me."

"Yeah."

"But if you have a connection in intelligence that says, 'Here's a storyline that might work for you.'"

"I couldn't agree with you more."

"Yeah. Let's, let's, but, you know, the part of the problem I, not part of the problem, but a reality is I didn't need those guys. I was well-read on this topic. Um, I had many conversations with people, uh, at the time. And you mentioned John Lear earlier, just to continue and finish the Dark Skies thing. After we sent the guys packing, uh, over the cemetery at midnight thing. The next week, I'm in my office working and somebody comes in and says, 'There's, um, a guy named John Lear in the, in the lobby.'"

"What?"

"And I, and Brent and I are like, 'What? John Lear's in the lobby?' And, you know, I don't know if your audience is aware of who John Lear is."

"They are."

"Okay. So, and I, you know, Brent and I were aware of John Lear because he had sort of, I think he issued his Lear statement or whatever about reverse engineering and all this stuff. And he had, he also had a lot to say about the moon, if you remember. So."

"We were very busy and, and again, I, I sort of paint myself as the, the difficult person in this thing, but I wasn't trying to be difficult. I was trying to put a show on. And so when somebody said, 'John Lear has showed up in your lobby without any foreknowledge.' He didn't call and say I'm coming by. I just said, 'Well, you know, I'm in the middle of a meeting here and I, I can't talk to him right now.' So, Brent and I made John Lear sit in the lobby for two hours."

"Oh, no."

"And when he, and but we finally sit down with him. And he comes in, he was, he was nice enough, you know, he told us the things he, he came to tell us things. I don't know that he's related to the JC captain thing. I, I don't know. But it happened right on the heels of it, right? And, um, and I think he felt dissed by, you know, me making him wait in the lobby. He sent me a letter, which I'm still looking for. I'm trying to find it. That it was a pretty nasty letter afterwards, I bet."

"Where he just basically said, 'Well, I can see your little TV series is so much more important than finding out what the truth really is or what.'"

"But."

"He's a strange guy because a lot of it sounds crazy, but he got a few things right."

"He sure did. He sure did. And, and he, you know, um, it, it was just a weird time for me because I thought to myself, I've just put up with these two guys who say they're from ONI, and now I got John Lear sitting in my lobby, and I got a show to run because, you know, the thing about doing a television show, and I'm not sure everyone understands this, but you're not focused on one thing at a time. At any given moment, you have a script that's in, that's being broken in a writer's room. You have a script that just came out that's waiting for notes. You have a production draft that's going into pre-production. You have a show that's shooting. You have dailies that are coming in. You have the first assembly of of a future episode that needs to be looked at and notes done. You have another episode that you're trying to lock for the network. Then you have another show that's going in to be scored and you got to meet with the musician or something like that. There's so much going on. You, you just, you become hysterical, uh, at times. And, um, and at the same time, like I said, I had three kids that were little kids, so that was a tough."

"You know, I, I'm not sure John felt my pain, uh, but, but, yeah."

"Shift gears for a quick second because I love, uh, alternative history. And you wrote two books, award-winning, yes, I believe, right?"

"Yeah."

"So, just the one that fascinates me in your book, what happens with JFK?"

"Ah, okay. I just, you know, if you think about it, Dark Skies, in one respect, is alternative history. Yes, it is. So, I, and like I said, my father was a history teacher who wasn't alive when I wrote these two books. He probably was rolling over in his grave over these two. But I wrote two books. The first one was called Surrounded by Enemies: What if Kennedy Survived Dallas? And the second one was called Once There Was a Way: What if the Beatles Stayed Together? These two great mythological things. So, what happened in the Kennedy one is I just thought, okay, I don't think it's a great way to look at it to say, 'Oh, if Kennedy didn't die in Dallas, he'd have stopped the Vietnam War and everything would have been wonderful and blah blah blah.' I just thought that's not practical. Particularly if, uh, particularly if Kennedy survived but had been shot at, two things would have happened. The public would have known somebody tried to kill the president in broad daylight, and Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy would have become the first conspiracy theorists because they would have known it wasn't a matter of who tried to kill Kennedy, but like who didn't want Kennedy killed."

"That's right. There were a lot of suspects at that time, and Bobby Kennedy, being fiercely protective of his brother, would have said, 'Well, John, it's not going to look pretty, but we are going to protect you. We are not going to let these mofos take you down.'"

"Did they, they bring Dulles out of retirement in that story?"

"Probably not."

"No. No. You want to stay apart?"

"In fact, um, he's one of the suspects. Of course, he is. And, and in fact, if you think about it, JFK and Bobby would have been the."

"Conspiracy theorists. What would they have done? They'd just sat down as they do in the book. That very night, JFK comes back from Dallas and they sit down in a darkened Oval Office and go over all the suspects and who they think was behind it and what they're going to do about it. And, um, I don't think it's a terrible spoiler, uh, but to say once you start investigating an attempted murder of the president, it doesn't stop neatly. You don't get to control the investigation, right? And so what happens in the book is that they start looking into JFK to find out who killed him. And that means you're turning over a lot of rocks. And some of those rocks have women under them."

"Yes, they do."

"And that would have been a, a painful thing because remember, people love JFK. I love JFK. I mean, what a, what a great leader and what a charismatic person. At the same time, though, people loved his wife."

"Oh, yeah. They thought Jackie was pretty cool. And if they found out that JFK was cheating on Jackie with more than a few women, I don't know that that would have been a good look for him. That would have been a pretty bad optic and could have changed the public view."

"But even, even as the public view was changing, you'd have also had people looking into, okay, well, if you think they did it, what did JFK do to them? And what, and there's just a lot of things that could come out. And so in my, uh, book, uh, JFK, uh, doesn't get killed by a bullet, but he gets killed by an investigation. Not killed, his reputation and his career. Yeah. Gets destroyed."

"Does he finish out his term?"

"No."

"He, he does not. He, he resigns."

"Yeah."

"I need to check out this book."

"It's sort of, it, it's one of those where Bobby has to go to him and say, 'Uh, you know, Jack, the votes aren't there for you.' Well, some would say they weren't there in the first place."

"Yeah."

"Well, that's true."

"But I mean, if he survives and gets reelected '68."

"You know what's so great about it, though? I had the greatest time writing both of these books because instead of writing them as a novel, I wrote them as an anniversary edition of like Rolling Stone. So, it was Rolling Stone writing the story of JFK's survival in Dallas. And it was Rolling Stone writing the story of the Beatles figuring out how to stay together instead of breaking up. And I just had the greatest time. And, you know, one of the things that's so wonderful when you're writing and things are working, things just start clicking, right? So, particularly with the Beatles, I, I, I found myself saying, 'Well, okay, I gotta, I gotta write John, Paul, George, and Ringo.' Well, we all know who they are, right? So, that's the number one thing a writer needs. You sort of need to know. You can describe the same event, right? But if you have four distinct people looking at it differently, they're all going to talk about it differently. And, you know, who turned into the, the character I love to write the most? I mean, Lennon was great. He's easy to write. And, you know, George, this, he's got that spiritual thing, but he's also got an ironic sense of humor, I guess. And Paul, of course, is the commercial guy. But I loved writing Ringo because what was so great about Ringo, it's true in life, but it's also in my book where everybody else is talking and Ringo is always just kind of sitting there and as he did many times, he'd listen and then he'd be the guy that pitches in the thing that ties it all together in this self-deprecating, wonderful way that he had. And I'm not sure people even remember it, but, you know, he should have got credit on certain songs. I mean, he's the guy that said, 'You know, mate, it's like, it's like I'm working eight days a week.' What? Y."

"And, and it's like, 'How you feeling, Ringo?' Well, it's been a hard day's night. I mean, he came up with those. So, yeah."

"Yeah. The Peter Jackson documentaries, which is amazing."

"So great. You know what's the greatest thing of Peter Jackson's documentary is? We think John and Paul really just hated each other at the end, right?"

"Yeah."

"And there were moments, but there is a moment where George Harrison is the one that storms off. John and Paul go into another room to talk about it, and there was a microphone there. I, what? That's like the greatest find in, in Beatle history. And you got John and Paul talking on a microphone about George. And they're not talking like guys that don't get along. They're talking like two guys that want to save the band. And I believe it's John that's saying, 'Yeah, well, we can get Clapton in here. Don't worry about it.' Right. But they're not mad at each other."

"No."

"They're on the same team. Even at this time where the original Let It Be documentary is written, and you, if you watched it back then, you went, 'Oh boy, these guys, you know, this is this is a train wreck.' No."

"But, but the, but the Peter Jackson thing, it goes to show you a little more information changes perspective. It also applies to our UFO thing. The more information you have, the bigger the lens, the more you see the accuracy of what's going on."

"That's right."

"Fascinating."

"So, what are you working on now? Um, you are, you still doing your podcast with Dolan?"

"Uh, yes. Um, it's called Need to Know. Uh, did it with Coltart for the years, doing it with, uh, Dolan, but mostly I'm concentrating right now on telling this soundlight and frequency story because I really feel it's on one where, you know, there are a lot of people doing, I guess, solo UFO podcasts. And, you know, I know how to do that, but I feel like the one contribution I can make right now is to try to burrow in on the Hollywood thing."

"Well, I love your approach. Um, how you, how you kind of take one piece of media per episode."

"Yeah."

"Uh, before we take off, maybe just can tell us how that podcast works, the format. It's very unique."

"Yeah. Uh, we like to, we're not reviewing movies, but we, the, we are sort of telling the story of Dark Skies, not as the primary story. It's just woven in. And at the same time, what we're trying to do is to take alien and UFO movies that people have seen and instead of reviewing them like, 'Well, the camera work could be better here,' and that kind of thing, we're actually asking ourselves, 'What does this movie say about alien life? What does this movie say about UFOs?' You know, what, what can we learn? And then ask ourselves, is, did Hollywood add something to ufology? Because that's, it's the chicken and egg argument, right? Did, did Hollywood say something first and then we think it's true, be, and we refer it in ufology, or did something go on in ufology that Hollywood got wind of and say, and, and I think if you want to know the truth, it's both. I mean, it said this."

"Yes. Yes, he did."

"He didn't believe in UFOs, but he said, 'If the myth survives, it'll find a way one way or the other.'"

"Yeah. Yeah. So, I, I've just been really, you know, listen, it's good to like your work, right? And I'm really enjoying sort of rolling up my sleeves and trying to, to, to learn more. And, and I hope I've done justice to some of it. And, and talking to today about sort of what happened at Dark Skies. Not that I think a 30-year-old show, you know, opens up the, the world in any way. Um, but it is reflective, just like some of these older movies. Uh, you think about it, The Day the Earth Stood Still. What does that tell us? What ideas did it put out there? What was the first movie ever made about flying saucers? It was called The Flying Saucer in 1950. And, and, you know, who were the writers of some of these films? Some of them came from the, you know, the US Army Signal Corps and intelligence and things like that. Did that impact what they wrote about? And, and coming across things which I know you and your, your audience is aware of, the Robertson Panel, which the CIA convened in 1953."

"Okay."

"And that could be a Need to Know, that could be a Y Files. Okay. But what makes it a Soundlight and Frequency is that one of the things that Robertson Panel in 1953 recommends is that they should try to, uh, marginalize this whole UFO thing and get people's minds off it, and maybe they should reach out to Hollywood. And in specific, they say, 'What about Walt Disney?' And then, and so Brent and I then go, 'Well, if you're going to reach out to Walt Disney, what do we know about Disney today? The Disney company is the number one purveyor of alien content on the planet. They have, uh, they own The X-Files. They own the Alien franchise. That's right. They have the Marvel franchise. Uh, they have, they have so much alien content. Is it related? I don't know. That would be speculation. Who knows?' But, um, the whole thing's been fascinating. Thank you for bringing it up because it's, it's been fun. And, uh, and we're sort of halfway through it. And I'm, I'm hopeful that as we get to the end, uh, we're going to show off that formula. And by the way, the day that we're doing that, I'm mailing it to you all right, and you can put it up wherever you want. Um, but the other thing is it's just given us a chance to sort of, um, at the end to try to say to people, 'Okay, we don't know exactly what's happening, maybe, but here's what we've learned. You've been on the ride with this. This is what we learned.' You could do this on your own show, of course, because you're, you're taking everyone who listens to the Y Files on a large investigation, and they're learning with you, and conclusions are being made and debated, and, and that's healthy. So, I, I think that's really terrific. And, uh, so, yeah, I'm enjoying that. And the other thing, by the way, though, and I'm sure you feel the same way, UFOs can marginalize people. We've seen it happen, right? And for years, I sort of fought against being just the UFO guy. I don't want to be the UFO guy. I want to be a writer, producer, right? Not just a UFO guy, even though it's taken on a big part of my life. But, one of the things, uh, is that my wife and I are producing a film called The Last Battle, uh, in the fall, quite likely, in Europe. And it's about the last battle of World War II in Europe. And it's a true story. And it is a, and it's cast. It's got cast now, which I can't talk about the cast because they haven't put the press release out, but it's a hell of a story. And it's true. See that?"

"It's so good. Um, can I give you the 30-second version of it?"

"Sure."

"Okay. Last week of World War II in Europe. What do we know? We know that Hitler kills himself on April 30th."

"Or, or, yeah. Okay. You really are a conspiracy show. Good for you. Okay. Let me rephrase. Okay. The world believes Hitler killed himself on April 30th, and on May 8th, uh, Germany surrenders. Yes. Okay."

"Well, what we know, and it's a true story, and it's from a book, uh, by Steven Harding, the, the author, uh, that I've adapted into the screenplay. Um, what happens is there are some Americans in the middle of that week who, you know, they just really want to end the war. They don't want to be the last guy to die in Europe. They want to go home and marry their girls and, and have babies, right? They just want to be done. They want to get normalcy. But these guys get sent up to a castle in Austria."

"Oh, right."

"Okay. And they're told, 'Listen, take your tank and go up to this, this, uh, castle, Litter in Austria, because the, uh, the Nazis are holding a bunch of high-value French prisoners of war there.'"

"I know this story. It's a great one."

"It's, it's fantastic. The generals, the, the premiers, you know, all the people who actually hate each other because they all blame each other for losing the war, right? But they're all cooped up together as POWs, high-value POWs. So, the Americans do what they're supposed to do. They go up there. They fight their way in."

"They manage to prevail. They take the French out of the cells and they put the German guards in the cells. And the French do what French do. They get out the best wine and, and everybody starts celebrating, right? And it's like fantastic. And in the middle of the night, they start getting shelled."

"Yep."

"Why? Because Himmler has sent 200 angry, liquored up, pissed off Waffen SS officers to surround this castle and kill everybody involved so they don't testify at war crimes trials."

"Kill everybody, including the Nazis?"

"Yes. And so."

"So then."

"Yes, that's the twist. So, the, the Americans have to go to the Germans they just locked up and say, 'You know, let me ask you a hypothetical. If we give you your guns back, who are you going to shoot? Us or them?' And the German guards, led by a, a German, uh, General, who I, there's no good Germans in this thing, but he's not a bad, bad German in that he's the guy that says, 'The war is over. You know, it's, it's over. We're going to fight for peace.' So, yeah, we'll fight with you. And so what happens is you have this mythic battle in a castle where you've got Americans, Germans, and French. The, the French are these old French guys, you know, and the Germans are these older young German guards, and the Americans are, were outnumbered 20 to 1. There were like 10 of them and 200 Waffen SS. So, these guys are in a castle holding them off, and it's just so full of interesting things. For example, they run out of ammo. Both sides."

"Yeah, you can't write this."

"And you can, I mean, I did write it, but I, I, and so literally it comes into the castle keep where people are fighting with knives and, and maces and all this stuff. Yeah."

"And it really happened. It's a great ring scene."

"It's so wonderful."

"It's amazing. I'm looking forward to that."

"Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for letting me even tell that because."

"I can't wait to see it."

"You know what's funny though? It's a Hollywood story though because yes, he wrote the book, but the way it happened is I was standing in my sister-in-law's kitchen years ago. And I end up standing next to this guy. I don't know him. He doesn't know me. I tell him I work in Hollywood. He says he's, uh, the editor of World War II magazine. And we're talking, and he goes, 'You know, I've heard about a story. I don't know if it's any good.' He tells me the story and I go, 'If that's not a movie, I don't know what is. Can I option it for you?' He says, 'Fine.' So, I write a treatment about this thing and I show it to him, and this is Steven Harding, and Harding reads the treatment. You know, I'm going to take it out and sell a movie. And he reads the treatment and goes, 'This is great. Do you mind if I write the article first?' And I said, 'Yeah, sure. Because I want to option it.' So, he writes a, a major article for World War II magazine. I option it, and I'm so excited about the article that I say I'm going to spec the script out. So, now I write the screenplay. So, I take six months and I write the screenplay and I show it to Harding because now I'm going to take the script out. And he goes, 'Oh wow, this is really good. Do you mind if I write the book?' So, he takes a year and a half to write the book. I put the script in a drawer. He writes the book. The book becomes a big hit. It's on the New York Times bestseller list. We take the script and the book out, and now we're making a movie."

"Oh, God bless. I can't, I can't wait for it. It's a great story."

"Yeah, it is. It's fun."

"Uh, the podcast, Sound, Light, and Frequency. Highly recommend. You haven't heard anything like it. If you're into UFOs, this is the podcast. Watch. This should be a huge show. Uh, it's amazing."

"Bryce Ael, thank you so much."

"It's been great. Yeah. Thank you. I really enjoyed it."

"Me, too. Bye, everybody. That was Bryce Ael, one of the best storytellers I've had down here. We covered his years in news, the Dark Skies saga, Steven Spielberg, and his book about what happens after we admit we're not alone. So, let's untangle some of this. Dark Skies is real. NBC put it out on the air in 1996, and its opening title sequence won an Emmy. The McMinnville photos Bryce talks about are real, too. Shot on the Trent farm in Oregon in 1950 and printed in Life magazine that June. Optical physicist Bruce Mcabe studied the negatives and found a real solid object in the sky. Skeptics still call it a hoax, but the photos are good. Now, the bigger idea that the government has quietly steered UFO stories through Hollywood. That part isn't fantasy. In 1953, a CIA group called the Robertson Panel recommended using mass media to take the mystery out of UFOs. The records show Walt Disney's name came up. Government touching Hollywood on the subject is on the books. The men who came to Bryce's house and called themselves Navy intelligence, that I can't prove, and neither can he. But he told it straight. It could be real. It could be disinformation. Whichever it is, I believe him. I think someone showed up, and I kind of tend to believe it was Navy intelligence. The thing that got me is the West Virginia story. In 1981, a man named John Harrington told Bryce's partner he'd been briefed inside an underground facility in West Virginia. At the time, no such place was public. 11 years later, the Washington Post exposed the Greenbrier, a secret bunker built to hide Congress in a nuclear war in West Virginia. Harrington named it a decade early. And I've covered the Greenbrier Hotel. It's a fascinating place, and it has been expanded. Now, what I respect about Bryce is he never asks you to believe him. He lays it out on the table and lets you decide. His new podcast is called Sound, Light, and Frequency. And it's not really a UFO show. It's an investigation into whether our movies have been doing the government's work for 70 years. And spoiler alert, they have. His book with Richard Dolan is AD After Disclosure. It's on Amazon. And check out his podcast where he analyzes movies and TV shows looking for hints of disclosure. We pulled on the Men in Black, JFK, and Mory Island thread in this episode, and Majestic 12 in another. They're both linked down below. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated. I played Philippia in Area 51. A secret code inside the Bible said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music. Song singing the like I should. But then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends. And it never ends. No, it never ends. I feel the crap guy. I got stuck inside Mel's home with MK out of being only true aware. Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set of the shadow people there? The Roswell just fought the smiling man. I'm told and his name was cold. But I can't agree. I'm dancing with the and your fish on Thursday night, Wednesday, day two, and all through the night. All I ever wanted was to hear the truth. So the world falls on your feet through the night. The math man sightings and the solar storm still come to the secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, planet circle, Project Stargate, and what the dark watchers found. We're in a simulation. Don't you worry though. The black nights set a lighter tone for me. So I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish on Thursday nights when they chase you and me all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth of the world through the night. Fish on Thursday nights when they change you and be all through the night. All I ever wanted was to hear the truth. One of the long dance to dance loves to dance. Loves to dance on the dance floor because she is a camel. Camels love to dance when the feeling is right on ways in time."