Transcription
Greetings, Assalamu Alaikum, viewers. Welcome to "Beyond the News" and "New Era." Indeed, the biggest news currently circulating in Pakistan, whose reverberations and aftershocks have been felt since yesterday, is the sentencing of former DG ISI, General Faiz Hameed, to 14 years of rigorous imprisonment. It's unclear if it's with hard labor or not, but that's what was written in the Urdu newspapers, which is what I was looking at. Nevertheless, and subsequently, the press release from ISPR, in a paragraph, mentioned his interference in politics and his role in spreading political chaos, stating that this would be viewed separately. Everyone is interpreting that particular sentence in the same way: that it relates to his closeness with Imran Khan and his continued political activities even after Imran Khan's removal from power and General Faiz Hameed's own transfer. It should also be clear from these sentences what the current establishment's leadership's policy or approach is at this time, and this does not appear to be very good news for Imran Khan and Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf. I should also mention that many journalists are now openly saying that their columns have been shut down, they have been offered deals on TV, and so on. They claim all this was being done by Faiz. Many politicians, the same politicians who used to line up to meet General Faiz, are now criticizing him. This is what happens in Pakistan. And finally, people are also asking if action will now be taken against General Bajwa as well, because he was the Army Chief, he was General Faiz's boss. So, these are the kinds of questions, and this was discussed yesterday as well. Dr. Ayesha Hameeda was also present on our channel. But today, I have specially invited her again, and the reason is that there are many things that are yet to unfold and need to be understood. The impact on politics from the institution's perspective is one thing, but what was happening within the institution itself, and perhaps some reverberations are still ongoing, where will they lead Pakistan? Welcome, Ayesha, and let's start with this: after Faiz, is it now Imran Khan's turn? This is the biggest question people are raising right now. Raza, it seems so. I believe that even Faiz Hameed's turn is not over yet, right? Because of his political engagement and the allegations against him regarding the May 9th mini-rebellion, in which families of the army and some army personnel were also involved. So, it seems that his reckoning is yet to come. It will happen with him too. But from this last paragraph in the ISPR press release, it seems that Imran Khan and Faiz Hameed will definitely have their turn in this regard now. And I don't think this press release needs to be looked at. What the DG ISPR did a couple of days ago, that press conference where he called Imran Khan mentally unwell and said many things that the DG ISPR shouldn't have said. But it seemed from that that their mood was to further tighten the noose around PTI and that there was no longer any room for negotiation with Imran Khan. My own opinion was that even before, the army and Asif Munir were not ready to negotiate with him. But one thing that is absolutely obvious is that as soon as his position consolidated within the army, he is now the head of the entire military, and I don't think there are any internal challenges at all, absolutely zero. And externally, the support he is receiving now, he is the darling of America, a favorite Field Marshal, and Donald Trump's, and his acceptance in the Middle East and South... Absolutely. Because of that external and internal support, it seems that this verdict... I would also remind you that this decision, in this regard, look, one is the case of the top court, which is about graft, corruption, and misuse of authority. That is a clear case. Then there is the allegation that he violated the Official Secrets Act. I don't think he would have given anything to outsiders. The point is, if he had done so, perhaps he would have been pardoned. Remember Lieutenant General Javed Iqbal, who was accused of sharing nuclear secrets, perhaps with America or in Germany when he was there, he was pardoned. In fact, General Field Marshal Asim Munir abolished his sentence, which Bajwa had previously reduced. So, this is clearly a punishment for the political role he was playing, and the verdict was announced at a time when Asif Munir felt confident that he now had absolute power internally, and no one would challenge him. So the verdict came out, right? Ayesha, you made a very important point that the current regime's internal and external situation is favoring them in this decision as well. I think that is one of the key drivers here. But let me tell you, among these allegations, in my opinion, the biggest thing that Faiz Hameed should be held accountable for is this. Look, when he signed an agreement with TLP during their dharnas in 2016 and 2017, I only learned his name then. A serving DG signing an agreement, in what capacity? Then, after that, you see the entire political engineering affair. Regarding the media, I can give you a firsthand account myself, because many people are talking about it now. We also make a lot of noise about it, but the extent of surveillance and pressure they tried to exert on us, their associates, is a whole different story. And then there is the statement of Shaukat Hameed, where he, a judge of the Islamabad High Court, says that our two years of hard work will be wasted if you do not immediately give sentences to Nawaz and Maryam. Now, whether they should get it or not, this is astonishing. All these DGs used to do this. I know there's a limit to brazenness, Raza. Look, what they were doing was institutional, wasn't it? Weren't Bajwa Sahib involved in that? Bajwa Sahib was absolutely involved. Look, where Bajwa Sahib and Faiz Hameed had a dispute was when Faiz Hameed went ahead alone, making a deal with Prime Minister Imran Khan to plan his power and become the next Army Chief. And in that, I believe, many things are being said, like there is a division within. Look, I believe that among the junior and mid-ranks, there might not be so much applause even now. And the fact is that Imran Khan is a popular leader. Some of your viewers might have asked, "Imran Khan also said mentally unwell." Syed Asim Munir, politicians say such things. Bureaucrats shouldn't say them. That's what's being discussed. But returning to the matter. So, look, I believe that the institution also had problems in the final days of Faiz. Look, Bajwa Sahib, after his second extension, was desperate to get a third extension, perhaps for another year. Those were the discussions then. But there was an option from outside. Another was that he was going to retire, right? Meaning, the next Army Chief, among the line of senior generals, four or five of them, Faiz Hameed was lower down. Now, it's not that politicians haven't promoted junior generals. Bhutto sahib appointed Zia-ul-Haq, who was very junior, as Army Chief. But anyway, the point is, when this happened, obviously there was tension within the institution: "What is he doing? Our turn will end, we won't be considered, we will be out of the race," because he was trying to become Army Chief. And in that, he had become so close. I remind you, a news report was also published that General Bajwa stopped him because he privately met Imran Khan, etc. That news was from that time. Then, what happened was that he had attached himself so much to Imran Khan. Imran Khan believed that no one other than Faiz Hameed could ensure his victory in the 2024 elections, and that their future was tied together to a degree against institutional norms. When it was his turn to be DG ISI, his tenure had ended. According to the rules, and even to be considered for the position of Army Chief, he had to command a corps, absolutely, absolutely. So Bajwa Sahib was not removing him from this game. They posted him as Commander Peshawar. And Imran Khan was not relieving him. So, institutionally, people... I remember that in those days, when discussions happened, two names came up, two generals. One was Faiz Hameed, and the other was Asif Ghafoor. About whom it was said that the kind of game they are playing is an embarrassment, and they should not be appointed to any position. So, there was a problem with them in the senior ranks of the military. So, that's the issue. Then, whether right or wrong, Asif Munir became the Army Chief. Now that he has become, it was very important, and this decision, I believe, was accepted by the generals. There were many rumors then that General Sahir Shamshad Mirza might plan something internally, but that didn't happen. On May 9th, they stood with Syed Asim Munir like a solid wall. So, I mentioned in your program yesterday that we have two comparative instances. One is of Ziauddin Dar, whom Nawaz Sharif appointed as Army Chief after removing Musharraf. In that, the top ranks were divided. The majority went with Musharraf because maintaining the institution, its strengthening, was in the eyes of the generals. In this situation, when Asim Munir was appointed, the majority of generals accepted that decision, including Sahir Shamshad Mirza, and they fully supported him. Now, in such a situation, there was a lot of resentment institutionally against Faiz Hameed. And this, I believe, that May greatly disturbed General Asim Munir, Field Marshal Asim Munir. Because the news among friends is that at one time it was said that the Corps Commander's residence at Jinnah House, Lahore, should be turned into a museum, to show how this rebellion within the institution, which challenges the spirit and decorum of the institution, we came close to that, we came very close to that. So, this greatly disturbed these generals, definitely disturbed Asim Munir. Therefore, this verdict was bound to be delivered. Absolutely. So, Ayesha, you have covered the kaleidoscope very thoroughly. But I also want to ask you, look, what was happening in 2022 regarding the appointment. Look, I mean, tell me, have you ever, because you have been covering it, and you are also writing a book, you are collecting data on all the chiefs for the book. Have you ever seen such a mess, where on one hand, General Faiz is busy trying to bring Imran back so that he can become Chief, Imran wants him to get it. On the other hand, General Bajwa is also lobbying for his second or third extension. And the three or four more generals below, General Azhar and others, were also lobbying. Okay, it happens in the world, I'm sure bureaucrats also lobby for postings. But the impact it was having on the country's politics and economy, honestly, I found it very strange and unprecedented. Maybe I haven't followed it so closely before, but these people went too far. I'm not blaming just one person, and I'm sure Asim Munir was also quietly talking on the side with the concerned quarters. But this, Faiz Sahib, is roaming around openly, and he is also making Imran Khan use his political lever to conduct the long march. Now, do you remember that there was also a long march on the appointment of the Army Chief? That is also an unprecedented thing, that a political party goes and stages a sit-in in front of the GHQ saying, "It's our wish, appoint him." [Laughter] Raza, the point is, people laugh now and say that the biggest political party is the Pakistan Army itself. The only thing is that they keep their institutions united. So, my own opinion is that this kind of... this level of... has come over the years, and especially look, before, what used to happen was that ambitious generals would impose martial law, and when martial law was imposed, they would extend their own terms. But after General Kayani, it happened that generals started taking extensions from political governments. Absolutely. A new nature of politics emerged, didn't it? So, they play politics themselves, saying, "We are not imposing martial law, we are leaving space for you, but then promote us further." Rahil Sharif also tried hard, couldn't succeed. But from Kayani onwards, you see that every general tries for an extension and wants it. So, the number two, and look, during this entire period, the ISI became such an important institution that now people say there are two important chiefs: one is the Army Chief, and the other is the DG ISI. So, DG ISI, especially in a situation where Bajwa Sahib used to get many things done through ISI, they had a partnership. Absolutely, like Kayani and Pasha's partnership. So, in that, he probably thought, "Okay, brother, let me also taste this pleasure." [Laughter] Right. Okay. But Ayesha, let me quickly ask you, you also mentioned that there was no personal... obviously, he wanted Asim Munir to be appointed as Chief, and then when he became, he wanted to bring him down. But let's also talk about this, because all these things are being discussed now, this TLP matter, later the TTP policy. It's true that these were institutional decisions, but do you think there was a personal element in it? Because we have also seen that over the years, ISI, you yourself are saying that there are two chiefs. Many people have written about this. Whenever they complain, "Why don't they have control over this institution?" So, this TLP... being created, dharna participants being given money, being called first, then seated, then sent away. Then Qazi... Raza, I'm sorry, but I don't agree. If you attribute everything solely to Faiz Hameed, then I don't agree. What happened with TLP was also institutional, and what happened with TTP was also institutional. In fact, the interesting thing is that all the allegations against Imran are that he wanted TTP, this and that. Imran had nothing to do with that policy. That policy was being made between Pasha and, sorry, between Qamar Javed Bajwa and Faiz Hameed. And you also remember that TTP was quite suppressed and quiet during those days. The institutional chiefs, the two of them, told each other, "Let's handle them this way, give them concessions, let them come, but along with that, they should come de-weaponized." The agreement with the 65,000 TTP members who came was that they would come having laid down their weapons. They would come, take their permits, do whatever. Look, because the issue is, and again, I'll take you back to the past, when I spoke with General Ziauddin Dar, who was also the Chief of ISI for three years, which we forget, his statement was that what is the problem with Swat? Let them, Maulana Fazlullah and others, implement their Sharia. The rest of the country will be cut off from it and will continue in its old way. So, I believe there is institutional sympathy and a lack of understanding of the areas. Meaning, at one time, Swat was socio-economically progressive, there were big left-wing movements, etc. But these Punjabi generals of ours, with apologies, they think that Pashtun, and that Pashtunwali, actually means Sharia, Islam, conservatism, bloodshed. There is also a cultural lack of understanding, due to which such policies were made, which were institutional. The change with TTP, the break, happened when Asim Munir came, because they reversed it. The previous chiefs had this idea. Absolutely. Ayesha, I agree with you 200 percent. This was the policy of the state and the institution. But anyway, honestly, where a Major General becomes a guarantor by writing his name, and a bench is formed, against whom later Qazi Faiz Isa... gave a decision, they dragged him and his wife for two years, and this was a strange phase in our history. Okay, I have to wrap up now, and you also have to go, so I won't take much of your time. But I want to ask you now: I also saw that Reema Omer, the lawyer, is saying that now with the changes they have made in the Army Act, the appeal might not necessarily go to the High Court or Supreme Court. Yes, that's correct. So, then, isn't that a very dangerous thing for Faiz Sahib? Because the only way for his salvation will be to be given a paper, to give testimony against Imran Khan, or to become an approver, and save his life. Do you think that is the likelihood? That's a possibility. Look, the evidence they have collected since May, and it is one-sided. How fair a trial will Imran Khan have? I'm not sympathizing with him, but it's just that we don't know how fair a trial will be with the current judicial system. So, they don't need to get any signatures from him. And the point is, I remind you that about a year and a half ago, Dr. Shireen Mazari was arrested, and her phone was confiscated. That's right. Right? She is still on the ECL, I think. So, that issue, in my opinion, they have enough evidence linking Faiz Hameed with others. Now, as for Faiz Hameed, look, he is a general, a general. Now, there is rigorous imprisonment. We don't know which jail they will keep him in, Adiala or comfortably. And then, just as previous generals have been pardoned, will this 14-year rigorous imprisonment be reduced? As long as Asim Munir is in charge, perhaps they will have to endure whatever jail time it is. When there is a change of leadership at some point, perhaps their 14 years will be reduced. We don't know. The chances of that happening by 2030 seem slim. Okay, but Ayesha, I also want to tell you, you know, Imran Khan once gave an interview to you in which he said that ISI, he knows that ISI taps his phones, surveils him, and that's a good thing. That's their job to protect. And he said that in America too, the President's CIA knows everything, and my phones are being tapped. Well, I saw a very interesting clip of Talat Hussain Sahib in which he claimed that the surveillance records from that time do not exist. I was very surprised to see that. What was the reason that they are not there? Perhaps that's why he himself, Faiz Sahib, didn't want to leave any footprints. But this was a strange kind of alliance. Because their planning was that Faiz Hameed, Imran Khan, and General Asif Ghafoor's names are also mentioned, that they had a plan on how to rearrange the cards, the deck, so that they could extend their terms or move to new positions, and then we saw all of that crash. So, this kind of planning in Pakistan, at this particular level, why do people always forget that in Pakistan's history, such good plans also fail, flop? What goes on there? Raza, I don't know about the alliance. Look, but the point is that Imran Khan had a flawed perception. We, the military, and I believe every politician who has come to power with the help of the army, forgets. They say such sweet things, I don't know what they say. From Mian Sahib to Mian Nawaz Sharif to Imran Khan, all are caught in this trap, thinking, "They are standing with us, they will turn against us, and whatever we do." So, it's not an alliance. I believe it's the exploitation of politicians, which has happened before, is happening now, and will happen in the future. Firstly, that is the case. Secondly, I specifically believe that Imran Khan had a severe lack of understanding of institutions. Look, Mian Sahib was Prime Minister three times. He also didn't understand institutions. And going further back, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, qualitatively better than humans, a more educated, more experienced, more sensible Prime Minister, etc., etc., but he also couldn't understand institutions. He also thought, "Look, I brought back their POWs from India from East Pakistan, and they will go with me," but they didn't. Bhutto Sahib was also discarded when his need ended. So, every politician should keep in mind that until they understand the army as an institution and how institutions work, and they don't find institutional ways to push back against it, and they don't understand that their power is dependent on being linked with them, they will have to face such difficulties, such betrayals will happen repeatedly. Absolutely. Okay, here is a question from one of our viewers, Abid Manzoor Sial. He is asking that Faiz Hameed has been sentenced, but what about the past? Will anything happen? The answer is no, nothing will happen. [Laughter] So, no change will happen. Okay, he also said that after the decision on Faiz Hameed, those who benefited from Faiz have gone completely silent. Is this silence better for those who benefited, or has Faiz himself gone into complete shock? Look, they are enjoying power right now, aren't they? There's no talk. Obviously, they are happy. And don't forget, those who cry for Faiz Hameed, Bajwa Sahib encouraged the Pakistan Peoples Party and PML-N to move a no-confidence motion, why? To scare them, saying, "He will come, he will devour, he will descend here for 10 years, so move a no-confidence motion." The proper way would have been to let Imran Khan complete his tenure, which had a year and a half left, and then... and I believe... [Laughter] it wouldn't have happened. Look, this is a very insulting attitude towards the people of Pakistan. They think that they lack intelligence. I believe that people punish voters. If you don't deliver, PPP was removed from Punjab. Why? Not because of a conspiracy, but because PPP didn't deliver. People would have removed Imran too if you had let him complete his tenure. Okay, Ayesha, I'll tell you something based on my own thinking, because we are talking about Faiz Sahib, the 14 years with hard labor. When Bajwa was Chief, someone told me, two reliable sources told me. They said that other journalists below also went to General Bajwa and said, "Make one of us Chief, extend your own term, but don't make him Chief." No, I already told you that there was a problem within regarding them and Asif Ghafoor. Absolutely. Yes. So, Ayesha, I think you have to go. Thank you very much for your time. Many viewers are watching us today. The focus of today's show was on General Faiz. Other matters regarding Putin and America will be discussed in the next session with Dr. Ayesha. Until then, goodbye. Thank you.