Should I Forgive My Friend After He Slept With My Wife?

Is it worth trying to preserve my friendship with the man who slept with my wife? >> God, no. NO. NO. Like, and I asked this with like all due respect. What's the matter with you? >> So, I mean, this this is someone that I've known since high school. >> Yeah, but they slept with your wife. What is going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney show taking your calls. What's going on in your life with your marriages, your mental and emotional health, your kids, your schools, your workplace, whatever you got going on, I'd love to pull up a seat and have a conversation. If you want to be on the show, go to johndeloney.com/ask and uh we get thousands and thousands of emails and calls from all over and would love to uh pick yours and have you on the show. johndeloney.com/ask. Go to Huntsville, Alabama and talk to Paul. Hey Paul, what's up, dude? >> Hey John. Um, just wanted to say I've become a big fan in a short while. Um, my sister loves this show and a life event recently, she recommended I listen to you. So, >> well, dude, I'm glad that you're here, brother. And, uh, you're just down the road here, so come come down and visit or I'll be in Huntsville, Alabama doing a comedy show here in March and we can we can uh meet up. >> Oh, nice. Awesome. >> So, what's up, brother? >> Um, so I my question is, is it worth trying to preserve my friendship with the man who slept with my wife? God, no. No. No. Uh, like, and I asked this with like all due respect, what's the matter with you? I'm just kidding. Like, like, tell me what you're thinking through, man. >> So, I mean, this this is someone that I've known since high school. >> Yeah, but they slept with your wife. >> Yeah, you're right. >> Um, >> so I interrupted you. Keep going. >> No, you're good. It's just she initiated. Um >> Yeah. But he slept with your wife. >> Yeah. >> And I know I keep interrupting you and I'm doing that strategically, but I I'm struggling with what is hard about this to metabolize. Other than if your wife did this and your best friend did this, it can feel terrifying to look around on the island that is your life and realize you've got nobody. Yeah, that that's that's where I feel like I'm at. Um, >> don't listen don't sacrifice your integrity and your character for grief. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Because you're going to end up squashing a strong, worthy, lovable guy for the sake of momentary loneliness and pain. >> Yeah. >> All right. Let me tell tell me your story, brother. >> Uh just um December 23rd, got home early from work. Um, I was on night shift at the time and his car was in my driveway and I walked in my house, walked in my bedroom and they were in the bedroom. They they had I didn't catch them in the act, but you know, when they're both in their underwear, you kind of just assume what's been going on. Um, my wife is not wanting to uh patch things up. We're in the middle of the divorce paperwork is filed. Um, we're in the middle of the 30-day wait period. Um, and through this person, my wife has not shown nearly as much remorse as he has. And through him, I know probably roughly 20 people. And it's it's difficult because excising him is going to from my life is going to obviously put a little bit of a blockade in my relationship with other people as well. So, >> yeah. But let me let me make this I I feel like my job when I first started this podcast was to like pull apart the etymology of ADHD and how it works. Right. >> Right. >> And I feel like over and you know like here's the the difference between compulsive behaviors and obsessive thoughts. Like I thought that that was what my job was. I feel like now this show has morphed in a way or my role in the world has morphed in a way and it might not be this way forever which is to really sit with somebody as reality is becoming clearer and clearer and so I don't want to kick you while you're down but I now that you're here and we're sitting at the same table I want to clear the whole picture for you. Okay. >> Okay. And it's one I think that you see coming or that you experience. But man, all of our instincts, mine, too, is that I want it to not be as bad as it is. So, here's the place where you find yourself. Your wife has abandoned you and left you. And and I'll even go one step further. She embarrassed you. >> Oh, yeah. >> In your own home, in your own bed, with your community that probably you brought her into, right? >> Yep. >> Your best friend humiliated you. Right? He revealed himself as somebody you didn't know him to be, which is both disgusting and dis and like heartbreaking, but it leaves all of us asking the question. It leaves you asking the question, "How did I miss that? That's not the guy I thought he was." And I trusted him with everything. Right. >> It's bad because I had a conversation with him roughly a year ago. He and his girlfriend were had been together for five years. And the conversation was, "Hey man, you need to you need to take a crap or get off the toilet. Like either you can leave this girl and be done with her and let her move on or you can marry her and you know do the right thing." And his response was, "I'm not invested in this relationship. I don't want to be alone, but I also don't want to miss out if something better comes along. And I told him, I was like, "Look, man, you're just gonna get in this rel you're gonna either try to jump out of this relationship way too quick or you're going to end up cheating." And they ended up breaking up about six months ago. So, he followed my advice. But, I mean, there was a pit in my stomach after that conversation for the longest time. I I should have when there was a talking with a therapist. He said, "You need to when people show you who they are, you need to listen." >> There you go. And now here's the next layer. If you are a part of a friend community of a gang, and you mentioned 20 people, it's got 20 people in it. And after a guy in that gang goes over to an fellow gang member's house, sleeps with his wife in his bed, and that friend community chooses him over you. You have to experience that for what that is. That that another another layer of grief, which is who is the character of these people? Yeah, >> I've got some friends who are very much sticking by me through this and then I've got some others who have not even been able to go to dinner with. >> How old are you? >> Uh 27. >> Okay, 27. Sometimes people are >> I think all of us like our bodies fight for homeostasis, which is a nerdy way of saying our body fights for the things that it knows, the way things have been. It's why you'll lose 30 lbs and you'll gain 35 lbs back, right? Like your body, even if it'll kill you, it wants what it knows. Which is why changing childhood patterns in adulthood, changing relationships and attachments is so hard because our body want it just goes down the path that it already knows, right? And so I I I'll even give your friends some grace. Um I would clown them if they were having a conversation with me, but but like what they want is things to be the way they were. And if somebody like somebody does something stupid, somebody does something caustic, somebody blows up the whole thing, they they're I get the impulse to let's just get it back to the way it was. There's 20 of us. We're all gang and we all just do stuff together. And you saying no, I'm not going to be around them. It it can be easy to point at you and say, "Actually, you're the problem." Right. >> Right. >> So, how old are you right now? >> 27. >> Okay. All Yeah. And you just told me that all of this is happening in an ecosystem where between 25 and 35, your friends who have been your friends through high school, through college, they turn into adults and it just changes. Friend groups winnow down to where maybe you had a group of eight or nine or 10 guys that you hung out in college and now you're 25, you're 35, you're 45 and that number is one or two. And it just stinks, man. It just is. It's not a bad thing. It just is. people go in different directions. Right. >> Right. >> And so all that is happening at the same time. But to answer your original question, I I I'll I'll echo what your therapist said. When somebody reveals themself, I I don't know how you could ever trust somebody with job advice, with child raising advice, and in your future dating advice, with money advice. I don't know if you could sit and share a drink or yourself with anybody if they were the kind of person who would sleep with your wife in your bed while you were out working earning money for your home. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> And so the step for me seems not in that direction, but in I've got to be really heartbroken and sad and I've got to feel the weight of I missed it with my wife. I missed it with my best friend. What does that say about me and my my radar system for for trustworthy people? Right. >> Yeah. I just always I've I've been in in high school, I was in multiple relationships where someone ended up cheating on me and so I just assumed some of the the feelings and red flags I felt popping up in my heart and my mind were just anxiety. >> Yeah. >> And I just dismissed them. >> Well, it probably was, but it depends on how you define anxiety. If you define anxiety as something's wrong with your brain or body, then yeah, it's easy to let's just go try to wallpaper over that. But if you define anxiety as your body's innate signaling let you letting you know things aren't right, things aren't safe, then your body was exactly right. >> It definitely feels like the latter right now. >> Yeah. Well, I I I I always always, whether it's working through it with me or with other people, when somebody tells me they're struggling with anxiety, even even diagnosable disordered anxiety, I always want to start from a place of what is your body trying to get your attention about? What if your body's right? >> Yeah. >> And so, I think the lesson for you moving forward is your body tried to get your attention after that last conversation with this guy six months ago, a year ago. your body was probably ringing its alarm system off the hook with your wife. >> Yeah. >> And so your new your new path forward, which is going to be a lonely, caustic. It's going to feel like, you know, like one of those dystopian movies, right? Where you come out of your tent and everything's gone, right? It's going to feel hollow for a while. >> Yeah. >> All that's right and good. You're going to have to ask yourself, will I begin to become a person who trusts myself? Yeah, that I mean this whole thing is I'm in therapy. I'm getting back into church. I haven't I've been letting myself down in that regard. I'm I'm trying to like stop watching um pornography. There's just so much that's happened because of all this that's that's good that allows me to grow, but it's still, you know, >> and I mean, this guy is someone I went on I went on a cross-country road trip with him. I lived with him for two years here in Hunt here in Huntsville when I first moved here for a job. Yeah. >> Me and my wife lived with him and his girlfriend for two years. >> Yeah. >> He's loaned me money. I've I've loaned him money. Like it's >> mo most of us have a psychology for when somebody stabs us in the back. We don't have a good psychology for what happens when somebody we love and care for and support stabs us in the face. >> Yeah. >> And what most of us do, whether that happens at the corporate level or the home level, is we create a bunch of rules. We create a bunch of of walls and what we end up doing is we create a b we build a bunch of walls to protect ourselves but we don't lock others out. We just lock ourselves in. >> Yeah. And so your challenge moving forward is who's going to walk through life with you and that and what that means is guys that you can be completely honest with that you can be trustworthy with that you can be open with and um that when your guts tell you dude something shady about this character um that you are going to call it out. And if you've been cheated on over and over and over and over again I'm never going to dismiss that. But you have to ask yourself, what is it about me as the common denominator in all these relationships keep peeing people? What is it about me that creates maybe a context to where I'm people need to go elsewhere? Or what is it about me that I keep picking people who aren't people of character? And that's the work moving forward. You can't do this alone. I'm glad you got a couple of guys that are sticking with you. Those are going to be your boys. Ride or die. You got to have men in your life. Instead of like trying to do a thousand different things all at the same time, here's what I'd love for you to do. I'd love for you to spend some time with you and your counselor and ask yourself this question. Who do I want to be? I want to be a man who is at peace. I want to be a man who makes good choices. I want to be a man who trusts himself so that others can trust him. I want to be this kind of guy. I want to be a guy that keeps his promises to himself. And then we're going to reverse engineer the behaviors there. But if you run out and just like try to quit pornography and try to quit drinking and try to go back to church and try to not do this, what you're going to do is you're going to give your you're going to create a failure factor for yourself cuz all those things all at the same time with a bunch of scattered I'm going to do this and this and this and this and this is a recipe for burnout for just exhaustion. Instead, come up with an identity. This is a guy I want to become and then the actions I take, little actions, a million tiny wins every every day, every week, every month will lead me to become this kind of guy. And now you're talking life change, man. I'm sorry, dude. Golly, happy new year, my man. Um, this is your freedom year. Be a person of integrity through the divorce. Be a person of integrity with not talking trash about your old friend. Be a man of character. And then be about the bravery and courage of of getting well. Thanks for the call, man. Jeez, it's heartbreaking. We come back, a woman asks if she can marry her boyfriend if they have different religious backgrounds. We'll be right back. I love Montana Knife Company. They make the best knives on the planet. Period. Everybody knows that my son and I are big hunters. Everyone knows that my wife is an incredible cook. So, between the woods and the kitchen, I need knives that actually work, that hold up. And that's why I love Montana Knife Company knives. 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All right, let's go out to New York and talk to Elizabeth. Hey, Elizabeth. What's up? >> Hi, Dr. John. How are you this morning? >> Doing awesome. How are you >> doing? Okay. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a big fan of the show. >> I'm a big fan of you. Dude, you have a voice that sounds so clean and clear. It's like AI voice. >> Oh, I promise I'm real. But thank you. >> That's awesome. Like you can tell my voice isn't AI because I stumble and sound just like mumbly. You sound You're Anyway, go ahead. You sound awesome. >> Well, thank you. Um, my question is, can I marry my boyfriend if we have different religious backgrounds? >> Tell me more. >> Yeah. So, um, I met my boyfriend in college in the Northeast. Um, and I am from the South and I grew up going to church and I'm a Christian and my boyfriend is from San Francisco and his family is all non-religious and he's an atheist. Um, and so as you can imagine, we've had a lot of differences in our backgrounds and things like that. But throughout our relationship, we've really um we've really dove into each other's lives and learned how to celebrate our differences and have respectful conversations about them. And there's so many ways where I really see him as the person I want to spend the rest of my life with, but I just I just worry a little bit about this one big difference because it feels so fundamental. and um you know he's wonderful and he he is very respectful of my faith and you know he he'll go to church with me and things like that but it just it feels like there's something somewhat missing there and I'm not sure how to tackle that issue in a respectful way um to him and to his background and also in a way that feels good to me I guess. >> Yeah. Um, man, what a great question and what a thoughtful way you and your boyfriend have navigated this. How long have you all been together? >> Uh, a little over two years. >> Okay. Um, >> so we're not like thinking about getting married tomorrow or anything. It's just more like as I think about the future of the relationship. >> Sure. Sure. Um, listening to your conversation, just listening to you talk, it sounds like geography is a way cultural geography is a way bigger deal than faith right now. That's wow, that is such a good point. I would say that there definitely has been some Yeah, I would say there definitely has been some struggles and some conversations that we've had to h that we've had about cultural geography. And I think for me, I mean, I I live in New York now. I went to college up in the Northeast. And I think for me, I've definitely encountered some insecurities over where I'm from and and felt a little bit like I have to justify my >> I don't know. I don't know the right word, but sometimes I feel like >> I get it. >> Yeah, >> I get it. >> I'm from Texas. When people come in, they have to justify themselves even being in the state, right? I get it. Totally get it. Um, and and weirdly, um, I have I spend time in New York just because of my job and I have found New York to be full of incredibly lovely people and they're incredibly different, right? >> Yes. And so I'm more interested in where and maybe it's the southern polatist that you grew up with like that your job is to remain small and to swallow your feelings and concerns and ideas. Um, which is often it can be felt with an anxiety like going to school, going to hang out in New York, living in New York, it can feel like um my friend, she's a comic named Tina Ferml, she has cerebral palsy and she is u she's a comedian. She's hilarious, but she says um like being a comic with a disability is the least interesting thing about her in New York, right? She's not weird enough, right? Whereas in the south it'd be like, "Oh my gosh." Right? So it can feel like for you this freedom, be whoever you want is almost terrifying. It's anxiety-inducing, right? Because in the south you have your roles and you got your place. Does that make sense? >> Totally. Yes. Yes. >> Okay. So to answer your question big picture, yes, I think people who believe different things can get married. I think it is really, really hard. >> Yeah. >> And I think that it's less about the beliefs. My wife and I actually go to the same church and we have different beliefs on things in different seasons of our lives. What what's more important than what we believe in any given moment is a value set. >> Yes. And are we anchored into the same values? >> Yes. >> And where this gets really messy is um having kids. >> That that that's yeah, that's definitely been a huge part of what's kind of driving this question, I think, is thinking about about having kids, which I mean, like I said, won't be for a while, but you know, it's down the line. But it's worthy of it's worth thinking about before you before you and him stand before your God and his nothingness and say >> like till death do his part. Right. That's a that's something to think through. >> Yeah. >> Is there a possibility and I'm playing devil's advocate here just throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. >> Yeah. >> Is it possible that a you love this guy, b y'all in many aspects make each other encourage each other to be the best version of yourselves? You challenge each other. you've opened doors for each other like philosophically and like physically, right? And also you have a sense in your guts that this isn't your forever person. And so we're looking for a thing to anchor that into. >> Yeah. I mean, I think I think that's honestly a little bit of the question that I've asked myself. And I don't feel like I completely know the answer to that. Um, part of me has worried a little bit that I have kind of looked for an off-ramp on it. And I'm not >> That's what I'm asking. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I'm not sure if that's because I am scared of the commitment or of being with somebody forever, even if they're whoever. Um, or if it's because something about this relationship is not right. And I think I think I definitely I I definitely in my past had a lot of anxiety and overthinking when it comes to relationships and kind of mulling over everything. And with him, you know, I just kind of dove into it just to kind of see what would happen. And it's been so wonderful and I'm I'm so glad I did even if he's not the one because I've learned so much and, you know, experienced great things. >> But it's it's just I I don't know. I think that that's also something I've thought about and I'm not totally sure. >> Okay. I I I think um when it comes to an anchor point in terms of values, in terms of the lens with which I see and interact with the world, having a spouse that has a different lens, wears a different set of glasses makes coming up with the same picture for what we want our life to look like very challenging. >> Yes. Yes. And I was just thinking about that the other day because we I don't even know what we were talking about, but it was something a little more like philosophical and worldviewy and like people in the world and how we exist in the world and that kind of stuff. And as we were talking about it, I was like, "Wow, we're like not we can't even have a it's like we're speaking different languages. We're not even coming at this from anywhere that's similar, you know?" And that's and and I I guess like I guess my my question on on that would be I feel like another thing that I worry about with myself is I think sometimes I have this fantasy of this perfect marriage and this perfect guy in my head and I know that realistically nobody's perfect and and so I guess like where's the line between accepting that somebody isn't exactly what you would have drawn up maybe and where is it just not right, you know? >> Yeah. No, it's I think it's an awesome question. And I get this question about faith. I get this question about aesthetic, right? Yeah. >> Like somebody falls in love with somebody who just is not the picture they had at all in their head of the their of their Romeo or their Juliet. Right. Right. >> And so I think those those things are always >> great um those are great boundaries to run up against and see if they hold. Right. The question I would ask anybody wondering is this right? >> Yeah. is can I fully tell the truth? >> Yeah. >> Can I keep no secrets? Do we deeply respect each other in both in philosophy and in practice? Right? >> Because those are two different things. >> And um will we can we be united on like faith, money, and sex? Those are and kids. Those are four of the big ones. like we need to be we need to be on the same page. That doesn't mean we have to believe the same thing, but that means on those issues, we have to a be able to keep those secrets and tell the truth and b come up with an operating strategy for each one of those things that works for both of us. >> Yeah. >> And so if you find I can't do that in these things, and again, my wife and I, let me take something silly like having a mortgage, >> right? >> My wife could care less. Doesn't bother her one second. and I can't sleep if I owe somebody money. It's a pathology. It makes me nuts. And so in our home, she knows that's a point of safety and madness for the guy that she married and the guy that she loves. >> Yeah. >> And so she's like, "Cool. What do we got to do to get this stupid thing? Oh, we're not going to go on vacation for three years." Okay. Like that's a sacrifice she made. And when we paid our house off the my commitment was we're going to go on a the craziest vacation that you've ever could imagine. Dream up the craziest thing you can imagine. We're doing that. >> Yeah. >> When in my guts I was like we're wasting money. We're blowing it. Right. But we have a str an operating strategy for how we navigate differences of belief. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so when it comes to faith, uh um both of us are Christian, but that means something different to a billion different people across this planet, >> right? >> And it means something different to the two people in my home. >> Yeah. >> But what does it mean in practice on a day-to-day basis? How do we respect each other? How do we have disagreements? All of that stuff really, really matters. And when I find myself feeling like I have to keep secrets or I can't tell her this or that, that's when we get a problem. >> Yeah. >> And vice versa. When I feel her keeping secrets from me, that's when things get bad. >> Yeah, totally. >> And so the question I'd ask you is, are there parts of you that you have to put in a box and move away so that you can experience the good stuff? >> I feel like um I think I've sort of self-imposed some of those boxes on myself a little bit with with him. >> How very southern of you, >> right? Um, I think I I think that and I think some of that was because like in college, for example, like nobody I went to college with was a Christian. None of my friends were Christians. And I grew up going to like a private Christian high school and in church all the time. So, it was kind of like I kind of just got used to that, you know, >> and um >> and let's be honest, can we be honest? It's also a little bit exotic to hang out with a bunch of people who And exotic is a weird word to use there, but >> No, but you're totally right. It's exotic, too, because you were probably raised that um similar to me that um them non-believers out there, they're all fill in the blanks, right? >> And then you meet them and they're like, "Those guys are awesome." >> Exactly. Yes. And I think >> they're generous. They tip well. They would fight for me in a bar. Like they're great, right? >> Yes. Exactly. >> It's disorienting for a while. It's ex It feels like wow. It's exciting, right? >> Yes. And I think even like with relationships, my previous boyfriends who were Christians treated me terribly compared to this guy who I'm dating now. And so I think that's also been a little bit of a tough thing with my faith with my faith of like, okay, I don't I just it's hard to see how those things all line up, you know? >> Well, the challenge is and you're 23. If you figure this out now, you'll be 20 years ahead of me. Okay. Um, I literally hired a guy two years ago. He was a theology professor here in Nashville at a university. And I hired him and we met once a week for a while with this question, faith 101. >> Yeah. >> I speak at different churches. I can pull anybody's faith practices apart and poke holes and everything, but I was struggling with what do you actually believe, dude? >> Right. >> Right. Because I have a 13-year-old and at the time I had a 13-year-old and an 8-year-old at the time staring at me going, "Daddy, what do you believe? What's real?" >> Yeah. >> And so for me, for you, I think the challenge is what does that label Christian mean at the age of 23? >> Yes. >> And what does it mean? >> I definitely think that's something I'm figuring out. >> Right. Right. But what does it mean in value? >> Yeah. >> And what I mean by value is um this will always be the lens I look through. >> Yeah. >> Right. Um, and this will be and that there's an air of submission to it. I'm not the center of the universe. The universe doesn't revolve around me. There's bigger things at I I take a knee to something bigger than me and say, "Dear God, please help." >> Yes. >> And if you're a Christian, then that's I'm leaning into the practices of this guy named Jesus. I want to be like that guy. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so you doing the work for what does this label mean? Who am I going to be in belief and in practice and in value? That's that is a I dude I didn't take on until I was way older. >> Yeah. >> So, and by the way, hold whatever you come up with very loosely because it will change. It will change through grief. It'll change through tragedy. It'll change through heartbreak. It'll change through child children. It'll change through everything, right? >> Yeah. >> But it's asking yourself those questions. And then here's the hardest part that I want you to consider shedding, which is where are spaces I can be fully me? >> Yeah. And you might find that I can't be fully me around my old high school classmates and I can't be fully me and respected both I can't respect myself and others respect me in some of these other spaces I I live and your your your picture of life is where can I fully exhale? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes a I think that makes a lot of sense. And I definitely think that's something that I I started kind of searching for in in college and and stuff as well cuz I I would have a lot of different groups and you know I had a Christian group and I had a other groups of other things I did and I felt like in every group I was like this is awesome that I get to be this part of me you know but never >> but you're the odd man out in every group too. >> Yeah. Exactly. Because when I would be with my Christian friends it was like well I'm also hanging out with people who aren't Christians and stuff like that you know. >> Right. Well, and and this is probably not a great word, but it becomes an ethnicity. It becomes where you feel comfortable. >> It's where I know the rules. I know the language, right? So, it's like going back with your friends who speak Spanish. You can just jump right into speaking Spanish, >> right? >> And it's great. And you've learned this new language, which is cool to use a new language. Oh, that's awesome. But if you're not careful, the person you lose in all of this is you. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Who do I want to be? Before you go back and say, "Hey, is he the right guy? Is this the right relationship?" I want you to ask you, "What do I believe? And what do I value?" And you'll find some misalignment in there. Everyone does. But who do I want to be in this world? And what framework do I want to use? And as a Christian, I want to use the framework of this guy, Jesus, and how he treated people, how he showed up for people, how he honored people, how he gave his life for people. I want to be that. And it's it is hard. It's very hard to marry somebody who's like, I don't believe it. That's stupid. That's tough. Marrying somebody who's like, dude, I believe all in that framework, too. I don't believe in the mythology of it, but I believe in the in that framework. Well, you can work through some of those things, but it's you first deciding I'm going to stop holding parts of myself back with my core group, with my ride or dies, with my gang. And of course, when I go to certain places, you know, I don't tell jokes like this over here, and I don't make jokes over here. Last night, I was in the comedy club. I wasn't like preaching in there. Like, there's, of course, all of us, a part of being mature is is being socially aware, right? Um, but when it comes to that core group, who can I just drop my shoulders around and say, "Ah, I like this song." Even if they're like, "I hate that song. I I believe I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. That framework I I've devoted my life to." And they go, "Dude, that's amazing. It's awesome. Me, too." Or, "Man, I've got so much respect for that. It's beautiful." Um, ask yourself who you want to be and begin reverse engineering the practices and then reverse engineering the people you're going to take along with you on that adventure. Great question and it's awesome. Y'all have thought through this and had some great deep philosophical questions and y'all are highly respective of each other. Um, I applaud you and I applaud you for getting out of your Bible and going to experience things. That's amazing. That's awesome. We all need to do that because it challenges our world views. But now you got to go to the mirror and that's always a hard place to go. Thank you for the call. When we come back, a man asks how he can build lasting habits, healthy habits without falling into shame cycles. We'll be right back. You all know that I use the app Hallow. And right now, you can try the app for free for 3 months. That's 90 days of the number one Christian prayer and meditation app in the world at no cost. And this offer is only for my audience. 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That's hallow hal l.com/deloney for three months for free. All right, let's go out to Kansas City and talk to John. What's up, John? >> Hey, John. How's it going, man? >> I'm good, brother. How are you, man? >> Doing pretty good. Pretty good. Living life, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, so yeah, I'll just get right into it. So my question for you today is I know what I should be doing on a day-to-day basis to be healthier, to be a better person, to feel better, but I just super struggle to stay consistent and I feel like I always find myself in like these shame cycles of just feeling bad about not doing what I should be doing. So thought I'd ask you, dude, >> that's a great question. So give me an example of some things you're you think you should be doing differently than you are. Yeah. So, a couple things there. I'd say working out would be a big one. Eating healthier would be another one. Um, spending more time with my spouse would be another one. Um, I'd say those are probably the top three right there that I can think of. So, if I take all three of those things and distill them down, a a common denominator across all three of those things, I want to look better. I want to feel better. I want to have a better relationship with the one person I committed myself to forever. The a meta theme here is you don't think you're worth those things. Why is that? Where's that story come from? Oh man, you know, I I was thinking about this before our call and I think a lot of it is just derived from my past with how I viewed the success of other people. Um, my dad was very successful in the business world. All of my friends that I just happened to grow up with ended up being very successful. And I just always felt like this need to just try to measure up to them um and be like them. And if I have any kind of feedback that tells me that I may be straying from that path then it's like man what am I doing you know? >> Well it's it's not hey man what am I doing it is I'm not enough. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Cuz all of us have like dude what are you doing? That's life right? That's that's a life. I asked myself that yesterday 20 times. What are you doing with any number of things? But when it crosses to that deeper hurt, which is you're not doing this and you're not worth anything, >> where's the story originate from? H that's uh that's a question that I feel like I've been I've been thinking about a lot and I don't I don't know um that would be something that I'd feel like I'd have to like really dig into with like a a therapist or something like that. But I do know that like on a day-to-day basis, like for example, a couple nights ago, my wife and I, we we went and had ice cream. And the next morning, I just was thinking to myself like, "Ah, dude, like why'd you have that ice cream? You didn't need that." You know what I mean? Like, >> yeah. >> But you wanting that ice cream, you wanting to spend time with your wife was awesome. So, who's Yeah. Who's pumping the word need into your head and it's overriding what you want? >> Probably like a mixture of media, conversations with friends, uh just like stories that I've been telling myself for a long time. Yes. >> That I don't even that I Okay, go ahead. >> I was going to say that you probably don't even know you realize you're telling yourself, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The thing about those stories is usually they come the stories that we were born into. This is the way things are. This is the way our family is. This is who we are. And stories were told. Look at your brother. Look how he does it. >> Mhm. >> This is how I got to be this successful from your dad. If you don't do these things when you're nine, if you don't take out the trash, you're never going to be able to be a CEO of what? Right. And over time, those stories become the stories we tell oursel. >> I can go have ice cream with my daughter and my wife, and I don't have a scoop. I have a bunch. Right. >> Mhm. >> And I can say to myself, "That was stupid. That was too much." Without spiraling into, "And that means I'm worthless. I'm a failure. I'm a loser. Mhm. >> But usually or the work I've had to do a is overcoming calling out and overcoming some of those old stories, >> right? >> Mhm. >> And I think there's I think there's value in that. If your dad constantly told you, only patted you on the head when you did something successful. >> Mhm. >> And didn't sit with you when things fell apart, when things didn't work out well, >> when you dropped the pass, when you got the C, then of course your nervous system is going to adapt to the only way I'm worth being loved

is if I'm in the win column.

Yeah. Right. Or mom. Or whoever, right?

And so it's understanding this weird tension. Chris Williamson, my buddy, calls it out a lot. There's a weird tension between most men want to be told, hey, you are worth being loved, period. And the strange thing about that anchor point allows us to go do amazing, crazy, successful, wonderful things. But it doesn't work in reverse. You're lovable if you have a six-pack. If you never eat ice cream, if you never scroll on your phone mindlessly, if you don't spend 45 minutes in the bathroom just detaching from the world once in a while. Like, if you do these things, boom, failure, loser, no worth.

Mhm.

So, here's my challenge for you. Like, you've you've heard me say the difference between guilt and shame.

Um, I think so. Here's the difference.

But go ahead and say it. You went and had ice cream with your wife, which by the way, 99 times out of a hundred is an amazing, awesome thing. I'm glad you did that. It's great. And you can also see, by the way, these stories get so complex that your body has a goal of finding where you're failing. That's where it's it's default setting is tuned to where is John failing. And one of the things you want to do is spend more time with your wife. And when you went and did that, it found a way that you failed at that too, which was you shouldn't have eaten what you ate. And I can tell you when you're being annoying about your food, I don't need to eat that. I don't need to eat that. Your wife probably doesn't want to hang out with you, which means you fail at the other thing. Is that fair?

Yeah, totally.

Okay. So, how do we align these things? Alignment number one is asking yourself, who do I want to be? Who's the What's the guy I want to be? How do I want people to feel in my presence? Some people, and that's different for everybody. Some people want people to be excited in their presence. Some people want people to be totally at peace in their presence. Some people want people to feel safe in their presence. Great. Do you want to be the fun guy? Do you want to be the guy that everyone just gravitates towards? Or do you want to be the smartest guy in the room? Like you get to decide who I want to be and we're going to reverse engineer our things to that. That's number one.

Number two, here's the difference between guilt and shame. I had a triple scoop of ice cream and then grabbed another scoop on the way out the door. I feel guilty. That was dumb. That wasn't good for my health. I'm not going to sleep good tonight. I'm going to be annoying around my wife tomorrow. That was that was dumb. Shame is I am dumb. I am weak. It's an identity. It's an ownership.

You get what I'm saying?

Yeah. Totally. And I think regarding the first question, like I want to be someone that just people feel is a steady person in their life. I want to be the peace the peace portion of what you were talking about. And so if we reverse engineer from that, like I I just it just seems like such a task to rewire all of my thinking that I've been doing for years and years. You know what I mean?

Yeah. By the way, it's hard and it's about 90 days of suck of hell.

Mhm. Not to cure it forever, but to put yourself back on a new path.

Yeah. Is it is it just simply like if I find myself having those thoughts just to be aware of it and call it out as many times as I can throughout the day?

I carry I still to this day I don't write in it nearly as much as I did for years but I carried I wish I had a cooler name for it but it was just a thoughts journal man.

I suck. I shouldn't have done that. I'm a bad dad because I my wife should have married somebody else. I have no business fill in the blank.

Mhm. Right.

Mhm. Here's a good example. This happened to me last night. There's a thing here in Nashville called New Material Monday, which people go up on the club. Sometimes it's Nate Batski. It's big. Sometimes it's famous people, Theo, like whoever is going to be in town.

They go up and they do new jokes. And part of doing new jokes is literally dying in front of an audience because it's not funny. What you thought in your car was funny was going to be great and it tanks, man. Right.

Last night I started I had a whole yellow pad of stuff and bro it wasn't funny. And instead of dying on my sword trying new stuff to see how I can make it work, is there seeds of thing? I chickenened out and went back to stuff I know works. And it was an act of cowardice. And on the way home, I said to myself, "Stop doing this. You have a good job. You're a mental health guy. That's what you do. Like, stop doing this. You're wasting your time. You're wasting the audience's time. You're just right."

Mhm. And that was my narrative on the way home. And then I got a text message from a comic named Brent who said, "I watched you and next time you're going to fall on your sword." And it was a back and forth exchange. It was a a note of courage and encouragement and it was awesome. And so I challenged those stories and said, "No, that's dumb. I had a bad night. I checked out. Okay, I won't check it out next time."

And so I'm not going to I'm going to challenge those stories. And so getting a stories journal and writing that stuff down. It is you suck if do I? My wife would be better if she hadn't married me. Really?

Mhm. And sometimes it's I talked too much last night at that party about my workout program. Yeah, that made me annoy. I'm gonna quit doing that. I'll dial that back. Right.

Mhm. And so, yes, there is some work here. But here's the path. And this is from my buddy Michael Easter. It is going to be hard to change those internal stories, but you can't give anything that you don't have. And so if you're not at peace with you, other people can't be peace in and around you.

So if you want to become a man who other people find ah rest when they're around because of your strength, because of your stability, because of your ease, then you have to develop that stuff from the inside out. That's going to be hard to challenge your thoughts for a while, to write everything down, to ask your wife to call you out when she sees you being negative on yourself, right?

Mhm. It's also going to be hard to continue to feel like you live in a failure factory.

Mhm. To be unhappy with your fitness levels, to be unhappy with your nutrition, to be unhappy with yourself in your marriage. So what you have in front of you is two hard paths, not one easy one and one hard. You have to choose your hard path.

Yeah. So what I what I would challenge you to do is choose the path that's going to get you to where you want to be.

Okay. Yeah. I I think I'll I'll take the hard path that gets me where I want to be and not the hard path that kind of makes people uneasy around me.

Hang on the line, brother. I'm going to hook you up with building a non- anxious life. It's a book I wrote a year or two ago, maybe two years ago now. Um, but I want you to follow it like a road map and it will have some questions in that uh book in the back that you will challenge you on who do I want to be and it will give you a path forward. I'm grateful for you, my man. We'll be right back.

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All right, we're back. Here is a money and marriage question. It's anonymous question left at the money and marriage retreat that me and my friend Rachel Cruz put on a few times every year. Here's the question. How as a blended family do we help our children not question what is so bad about them that their mom or their dad left?

Um, you're never going to be able to avoid that question. That question is natural. It's right and it's a good question for a kids for all of us to ask. We want to make sure they ask that question though not alone and not unanchored. What does that look like? It means every day for all of their life, whether they are four or whether they're 6'4 and 18, the blended parents grab that kid by the face. Even as they're running out the door and say, "Stop, stop, stop. Look at me. I love you and I'm glad that you're my son." If you are a stepmom or a stepdad into this new blended family, you look at them and say, "I chose you and I'm so glad I chose you. you are awesome. That means when you're thinking of a big question that you need to ask, whether it's about your job or about a house or about anything, an outfit, you bring them in and say, "What do you think about this?" I took my daughter shopping with me for my wife uh for Christmas to buy a few things. And I told her, "I'm not good at picking certain things out. I would love your advice." My daughter hit a home run on all of it. All of it. Even a couple things she bought. There was a chair my wife wanted. And I was like, "Dude, she's not. Mom's not going to like this." And she's like, "This is the one." My wife loved it. I was wrong, dude. My daughter was nine at the time. So, it's I want them bring them in and give them a bunch of little relational wins with me so that when they ask the big questions of life, is there God? Who do I want to be when I grow up? Why did my original mom leave? Why did my original dad leave? The trauma there is the isolation. and a kid feeling like I have to answer this question on my own cuz there's no safe adults in my world. And so we're going to make sure that they are surrounded with safety. They're surrounded with lived experiences of physical touch, of asking their advice on tiny little insignificant things like the color of a chair to big things, right? But we're going to bring them along so that when they ask this big question, why did my dad leave? They'll ask it sitting by you. tethered, anchored in with another safe adult. So, we're not going to avoid the hard questions. We're going to provide a safe, anchored place for them to ask these hard questions. Awesome, awesome question for whoever wrote that in. I love that question.

Uh, hey everybody listening, I love you guys. It is a chaotic, chaotic world out there. Go do two things in your home today for your spouse, for your roommates, for your friend. Go do two things. Don't tell anybody you did them. Just go put some positivity in the world. Love you guys. Bye.