Pastor Gino Jennings VS Nation of Islam Full Debate | Topic: Did God Made Himself In Triple Darkness

If God created himself from Darkness, would that not contradict what God just said he made Darkness? Well, can I ask you a question then on that subject matter? Well, then what was there before it was Darkness? If God created Darkness, then what state was he in before he created the darkness? He was just God. Just God. So you're saying Allah is a man? That's what I'm saying. You came from Teon. Teon, uh, is, uh, a son of another man. To be a son, you must be begotten. Is that correct? Correct. Correct. All right, let's examine back at the Quran, the Surah chapter 1, Surah 1, verse one again. Yeah. Say, "He is Allah, the one and only. Allah, the Eternal Absolute. He Beth not, nor is he begotten." The representation of God is going to judge us. And if we misrepresent God, we'll be a damned people. Amen. God is perfect. God is absolute. God is infallible. Amen. Amen. The teaching that God created himself, that God was made, I firmly believe it's a lie. And I got scripture in the Bible and the Quran that will justify me saying so. That's right. What God you talking about? A spook God? Can a spook or spirit take me nowhere? Matter of fact, you have made a statement about your God. Uh, if, if anybody, uh, quote me, if I'm wrong about is calling your Allah, you will beat them up. Well, here's a quarter. Tell your gu to pick that up now. Watch my God, my Lord. My point to show you there is nothing over me but me. There is no God over me. It is, matter of fact, I beat your spare God up before I got here. The Bible says, "The fool had said in his heart, there is no God." No God. I got a fool here. These are the end times. So now is the time to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. To be baptized correctly, call the First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ toll-free at 1-888-231-2222. That's 1-888-231-2222. Or email us at baptism@truthofgod.com. Again, if you want to be baptized, call the First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ toll-free at 1-888-231-2222. Or email us at baptism@truthofgod.com.

Now, today, today you're about to witness a special discussion. It's a discussion between Pastor Jennings and the Nation of Islam. Uh, now, today's, or tonight's program, obviously, is going to be a special program. And it's being aired during our first combined National Men's and Women's Convocation that was recorded on the afternoon of November the 26th, the year 2000. The discussion will be primarily surrounded the existence of God, the source of God. And they're going to be discussed between Pastor Jennings of the First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ and, I do believe, Brother Thomas Smallwood of the Nation of Islam. We do ask all our listeners and viewers to sit attentively as we proceed with this program. At this time, we're going to present on you the servant of God and general overseer, our leader, teacher, and guide, Pastor Gino.

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Jennings. Greetings, brothers and sisters, friends and enemies. We thank the one God for His Divine wisdom and His eternal understanding of all things. We thank Him much for the prophets and the apostles. We can never thank Him enough for the greatest religion that He have revealed to them when He have commanded them, "Be ye holy." Moreover, we are grateful for you that are here and you that are listening and watching this discussion between myself and the Nation of Islam. I'm thankful to have Brother Smallwood Muhammad with us. Thank you.

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Brother. I'm also thankful to have from the Sunni Muslim Community, Brother.

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Talim, as well as all those that accompany him to be in this meeting. God is one. I know there are numerous of religions that try to pluralize God, but God is one. God is the basis and the foundation of religion. That's right. And all religions that say they represent God, for religion to be correct, God in that religion must be correct. Before, uh, we turn the stand over to Brother Smallwood Muhammad to let him have some opening remarks, we're going out of respect to the Sunni Muslim Community, we're going to let Brother Talim, who will represent them, have some brief opening remarks to you that are here and to our television audience and to our radio listeners that are hear this around the world. Then afterward, we will introduce to you Brother Thomas Smallwood Muhammad that he may speak, whether he want to say 10 minutes or 15 minutes. And then afterward, him and I will occupy up here at the same time. The subject that we are dealing with is God. That is, is the greatest subject of all subjects. We that believe in God's holy way, we believe that God always was. We believe that God is self-existing. We believe that God never was created from anything. We believe that God is eternal. We don't believe God is a man. We don't believe God is flesh and blood. We believe God is divine. And it was that divine source that worked in all of His prophets and all of the apostles. So the discussion between myself and the Nation of Islam is: God, the Creator, or was God created? Amen. Is God the Creator, or was God created, or was God self-made? That is the discussion between us and the Nation of Islam. So we want you to listen attentively as we go on. Sit down and respectfully have some brief remarks from Brother Talim from the Sunni Muslim Community.

Brother Talim, in the name of God, most gracious, most merciful. Praise be to God, the Lord, cherisher, sustainer of all the world. Most gracious and most merciful. Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and thy name we seek. Show us the straight way. The way of those on whom Thou has bestowed Thy grace, those whose portion is not wrath, and whom go not astray. Amen. Respected elders, Brother Jennings, and brothers and sisters. We, the brothers who attended this gathering today, we're highly impressed. And I'd like to share something with you that from the front door when we came in the front door, it was greetings, greetings, greetings, greetings, greetings, greetings, greetings. I said to my brother, I said, "Alhamdulillah," which means all praises be to God. We give praises to God for the greetings because we like to share with you the greeting and tell you a little story about what God commanded Adam, the first man, to do. It says in our Holy Quran, "When you are greeted with a greeting, greeted with in return with what is better than it, or at least return it equally." Certainly, Allah, God, is ever watchful. He's an accountant taker and He sees all things. Adam was commanded by God, this is a commandment, to give peace be upon you. And he referred that to the angels by God's command. The response to Adam was, "May the peace and blessings of God be upon you too." And I'd like to share that with you, brothers and sisters, because when you give peace to someone, it is a command from God. And I'm quite sure Pastor Jennings has shared that with you. But we acknowledge it that you give us peace be upon you, and we wish peace and blessings of the God of God be upon you. Allah be upon you. We also like to share something with you. This will be very brief. When you say peace, it's a little story a brother gave me, and he's, he's in the Philadelphia nursing home. And he's, he's a good brother. He can't talk, he can't walk, he can't move his limbs, but he actually communicates through a liberator. A liberator is a machine where as though it's connected to his chin, and he actually has an alphabet in front of him, and he actually types in this liberator all the things that he wants to say. But this is what he stated to me about peace. He said, "Loving your brother is a strange thing these days and times until mutual concern goes beyond just greeting one another in passing. You know, I saw you, so I greeted you. That's not it. Greeting and passing, loving for the sake of God is good sense. Nothing more. If you do it for no more reason than to realize it's for the paradise that you will get for bringing peace to your brother." And when he shared that to me, it brought tears to my eyes. And I just wanted to share that today with you. And in hopes that you can remember that your peace is a very, is a very significant, uh, word to give anyone and everyone. And if the world was filled with people such as yourselves sharing peace, we would have a good head start on this here deviant that we're working with. So I'd like to make this very short. And I would say that, uh, in the Holy Quran, it says, "In the name of God, most gracious, most merciful." This is God revealing to Muhammad, who was the last and the seal of all prophets. He says, "Say, Muhammad, he, God, is one. Yes. God, the Sufficient, the Master whom all creatures need. He neither eats or drinks. He begets not, was he, nor is he begotten. And there is none equal or comparable unto Him." Brothers and sisters, our message today is just to share with you that we don't associate anything with God. It is a, it is a very wrong mistake. And we live by the Holy Quran. We believe in Jesus, and we believe in all the prophets that God has sent before us. If we all were to follow the way in which Jesus, Muhammad, and all the prophets have gave us the revelation that God has sent, we will be all right. We have listened to, uh, Pastor Gino, Gino Jennings, a numerous of times, yeah, preaching about, uh, the things that are going on in our society in the world today. And you can't help but say, "Well, wait a minute, hold it. How he know all that?" You know. And we recognize him because he's talking about some things that we, we are struggling with today, brothers and sisters. You see. And that struggle is that we got an enemy. And that enemy that we have is the Satan, which we call the devil. He is there. But for each and every one of you who, who came here today, uh, we like to just share something with you in reference to how you got here. You see, you got here because God sent you here. He brought you here. He brought us here. You're sitting there with His permission. I'm standing here with His permission. And we have to acknowledge that at all times. The devil, the Satan, the deviant one, is who you have to watch out for because he will take the truth and twist it and turn it around and make you all partners with him because we all know misery loves company, and he is miserable. So with that, I'd like to make this short and, uh, proceed with the program. And as you said to me, I would like to say back to you.

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We do thank Brother Talim for those wonderful remarks. Now we're going to turn the microphone over to Brother Smallwood Muhammad that he may state his stands on this issue and the existence of God, whether God is created or whether God have always existed. And after he make his statement known to you that are here and you that are listening and watching him, him and I will get a chance to get into dialogue one with the other with the scriptures as our foundation. Brothers and sisters, Brother Smallwood.

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Muhammad. Peace be unto you. I just want to start off by, um, addressing a little statement that I had, um, you know, written up the other night. So if you can please be patient with me. This is my first time ever behind a mic, behind an altar. In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. We thank Allah for His coming in the person of Master Fard Muhammad, to whom praise is due forever. We thank Allah for His prophets, His servants, and the scriptures that they brought. And we thank Allah for Moses and the Torah, and for Jesus and the Gospel, and for Muhammad, the Holy Quran. Peace be upon all of these worthy servants of Allah. If I live to be a thousand, I don't think I could ever thank Allah enough for His divine intervention in our of fath is as a people, as a black people, for His raising up one from among us in this critical hour, in this day and time, to lead us, to teach us, and to guide us to the path of Islam. I speak of none other than the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the last and greatest messenger of Almighty God Allah. About a month ago, Brother Jennings challenged me to prove in the Bible that God created himself from darkness. Now, the answer to that question is a very simple answer because he said that I must prove in the Bible. And the proof is nowhere in the scriptures to be found where God ever said that He had created Himself from darkness. So I just can't simply prove something that's just simply not there. It would be just like asking, it would be like me asking you to prove to me in the scriptures that Jesus ate pork. I know you go in that scripture, you will search from the beginning of Genesis to to the end of Revelation, and you won't find it because he just simply didn't do it. The subject of the origin of God, that's a very difficult subject to explain, very difficult. So I had chose really not to really discuss that subject. For the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, at times, did not care to go into that subject either. But we can go into other subjects. But if Brother Jennings want to go there, I'll try my best. And I'm going to put my best for my foot forward this afternoon to do the best that I can. The best that I can. Okay. Now, I can prove other things in the scripture as far as interracial marriages, okay, according to the scripture, how God is against that. I can go into the scriptures and prove who the true Jehovah Witnesses are. With no, you know, disrespect to brother, but like he said on other tapes, on other occasions, there's just some scriptures he's just going to have to come up to. I mean, they his words. Praise be to Allah. All praises be to Allah. Now, I want to say this right. I'm not for M number 12. I never once on any of my letters stated that I was from M number 12, nor am I affiliated with any M at this present time. Brothers and sisters, I'm an insignificant little brother who loves the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. However, I do believe in God, just as you believe in God. I believe in God. And I'm not here today to try to, you know, take you off your course with that. That's not why I'm here. I'm here so that maybe we can bring some closure on some things that we disagree on, and maybe it can bring us even closer together. Because for a long time, brothers and sisters, all praises be to Allah, for the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, Christians and Muslims have failed to even try to walk together because of their religious differences. Differences when it comes to the prophets. That's right. Okay. You believe in Jesus? Oh, that, that's fine. As Muslims, we also believe in Jesus. This book right here that I have, which is called the Holy Quran, okay, it tells us that we ought to believe in Jesus. We are to believe, in fact, in all of the prophets of Allah. The Quran says to us as Muslims, it says, it says, and that we are not to make a distinction between any of the prophets, whether it was from Adam to Muhammad, because all of these divine prophets that Allah has sent to us, okay, they never argued and bickered over who they thought was right as opposed to who they believe was wrong. That's right. It wasn't the case with that. The case today is that we just have to try to, you know, come together so that we can become brothers and sisters to one another. So I hope and pray, brothers and sisters, by the end of this telecast today, that maybe we can walk, that we won't look at each other as being some foreign outcast. Just because I'm a Muslim, you look at me different, or because you a Christian, I have to treat you different. No, sir. I'm not going to do that. Mr. Faran, a brother who I, I greatly admire. Brother Silas Muhammad, another brother who is working very diligently right here in this country in America, is, you know, what I'm saying? You know, brother and S. We have to learn how to put our little petty Defense aside so we get into this thing where I'm Muslim, you Christian. It's almost like we're into gangs, you understand what I'm saying? It's like, you know, okay, I'm from this corner, and you're from over there, and I dare you to tread upon my territory. This is the house of God. I feel very comfortable, you know, being up here today. And I want to thank all praises be to Allah. Yes. Up. I said, I can feel the spirit already. Listen, brother, I want to thank Pastor Gino for just even allowing me to stand up here and do something like this.

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Huh? Because there's no other Christian that I know of in this city or elsewhere that will allow this event to take place, this type of formal setting where you can come and ask him anything that you want on scripture. That's beautiful. Now, now that I said all that, I want to try to, you know, be as succinct as I possibly can. I want y'all to relax. I want y'all to enjoy yourselves as I try to relax, enjoy myself. And I hope today after I'm finished, that me and this brother can walk out and we, we can all become one family. Because we are one family. God didn't create us like this, man, to be divided and split it up and arguing, fighting like fools and children. Children got more sense than we do when it comes to this head because they can get into fights and go right back to being friends tomorrow. You and I still be mad with each other. So with, um, um, if you don't mind, I like to bring brother back up and let's see what type of dialogue that we can get into. And hope that it can be a very peaceful. Because I come in peace, brother. Right. I represent peace. The very religion name of Islam itself, brother, it means peace and submission to the will of God. It is the religion of the prophets. The book of Thessalon, the book, the Bible in itself, when Paul speaks about the religion of peace, he was speaking about Islam. For Islam means exactly that. Jesus in Luke 24:36, when he stood in the midst of his disciples, the first words that came out of his mouth was, "Peace, peace be unto you." In other words, Assalamu alaykum. Okay. John chapter 20, verse 19 through 20, he uses that same expression again. You know, and most Christians, you, y'all the first ones I ever hear used that term. Because most people use the expression, "Hello." And we know is low. And if you say that you follow Him, and you were supposed to be Christ Light, come on. Salam. Okay. Then why is it that you don't greet one another? Or why is it that they, they don't greet one another with the expression of peace? That's right. They using the devil's advocate, his terminology, keeping him in existence when we're trying to knock out his brains. That's why we're here today. So I want to bring Brother Gino Jennings back up to the form and let's see, brother, what we can do.

Thank you again, brothers and sisters. We greet all of you. My Muslim brothers and sisters, Assalamu alaykum. We thank the Almighty God for blessing us to be present that you that are here and you that are listening and watching, uh, may have a clear understanding of what we're talking about. Uh, we enjoy the remarks from Brother Smallwood Muhammad, even though he said this cannot be proven, but it is something that the Nation of Islam believe. And if God is going to be the foundation of our religion, every divine messenger that have ever been sent of God must represent God in spirit and in truth. Is that right? Every divine messenger, whatever message the messenger has, whenever you talk about God, you're not talking about someone from a local neighborhood. We're not talking about a politician or renowned president. We're talking about Master of all creation, teacher and sender of all holy prophets. And in God, there is no flaws, no errors. He is perfection within itself. Amen. Now, in the teaching of the Nation, I also want to apologize to the brother for saying he was from Mosque number 12. He's not. And forgive us for mis- for Brother, um, the teaching that God created himself from darkness. We want to simply know, even though it's not in the scriptures, but it was taught. So the teaching is either correct, yeah, or incorrect. And the believers that was on the receiving end of that teaching, plainly put, it's either believe truth or an existing lie told about God. This is what we're dealing with. Because God is perfect, and man supposed to reflect God in that perfection. Amen. So either God was created, created himself by darkness, my brother? Either that statement is true, or either it's a lie. We're not talking about me. We're not talking about you. We're not talking about no one here. We're talking about God. Right. And when we supposed to be servants of God, that service must be rendered the way God desire for it to be rendered. Amen. Amen. So I say to you, is that statement true, or is it, uh, Allah?

Well, brother, to answer your question, the Quran tells me that we are to believe in Allah. Yes, sir. And to believe in His messenger. Yes. We are to obey them. So if the Quran is telling me, giving me an instruction, I'm going to carry that instruction out. And I know, brother, as well as you do, that even with all of the prophets, when they brought a message, the people didn't understand fully. Because look how complicated Jesus' message was for a lot of people to understand. And even today, they don't understand. This is why you're here. This is why I'm here, to try to bring or shed some light on that on that understanding. But it's a lot of time when you call me the other night, and we got into some dialogue about, you know, how, you know, the prophets must be in 100% agreement with each other or something like that. And I was trying to illustrate to you how during the time of Jesus, when he was speaking on the subject of adultery, and they had asked him, you know, um, when Jesus said that, um, you know, "You have heard it said that thou shall not commit adultery." And then he rendered his interpretation of that, taking the law of Moses into account, but yet his interpretation of that thing could not be verified at that particular moment in history because, as I stated, there was no New Testament. There was no New Testament. It was only the Old Testament. So a lot of times, all time with the prophets, they don't necessarily always have to be in agreement with each other.

Well, brother, let me say this. We're not talking about adultery. I was just using that as an example. I agree. But we're not talking about adultery or pork or chicken or chitlins. We're talking about God. Amen. And I'm telling you, God is, must be the foundation of religion. And if any messenger say a revelation came to me about God, that's right. Amen. Then the messenger must get his message according to scripture. Now, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, which, uh, I have never heard him teach this. I have studied the teaching of Elijah Muhammad through tapes, watching his Thea Day messages from the 50s and 60s. Never heard him say God created himself from darkness. But I hear that teaching move from Minister Louis Farrakhan. So the, that mean if Minister Farrakhan and the brothers of Islam are true believers, true believers must believe in the Quran and what Allah say about himself in that Quran. That's right. Allah is represented by Muhammad in the Quran, right? And either the teachings of Allah through Muhammad is correct, or either the teachings of Allah through Muhammad is incorrect. Because what Muhammad says here, and what Elijah Muhammad says later, is different. One of these Muhammads is wrong.

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Right. That's the basis. And for anything to get accomplished, we, we're going to have to have a hardcore direct dialogue. That's right, sir. But we know agree. Amen. One of these Muhammads is wrong. If God is not the author of confusion, then man is to blame.

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Let us listen at the Bible first, and then we'll read something out of the Quran. Amen. Is everybody all right? Amen. Listen at the scriptures in Psalms 90. Let's see who created this darkness. In Isaiah chapter 45, and begin reading at verse 6. Yes. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. God talking. Amen. Mm-hmm. I am the Lord, and there is none else. Yes. I form the light. I, God says, I form the light and create darkness. And God says, and create darkness. I make peace. I make peace and create evil. And create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. Now, God has given testimony about Himself. That's right. In the Quran, Surah chapter 1, and begin at verse one. Say, "He is Allah, the one and only." Verse two. "Allah, the Eternal Absolute." Verse three. "He Beth not, nor is he begotten." Verse four. "There is none like unto Him." Now, this is a contradiction of the teachings of Minister Farrakhan. Because when you say eternal, what is eternal? Well, I would like for you to be able to address that one. Because you really can't put a time on it. Because we know that from everything that came into existence had to have some sort of beginning. Well, when does it begin? We don't know. Can a thing be eternal and have a beginning? Well, it depends on your understanding of it. Because I know it talks about from everlasting to everlasting. But what exactly does that mean? Like I said, so we're not really, I'm not really that verse. Because I'm not in the, in the Nation on that subject. Well, everlasting and eternal is the same thing. Yeah. But the teachings of Islam, the Nation of Islam, that God created himself from darkness is a violation of the Quran. Because that's saying God did not always exist. Right. And if that is so, how can Allah bear the title Almighty and need help from an element to become God? That will be blasphemy against the religion of Islam. That'll be blasphemy. So if God created himself from darkness, would they not contradict what God just said he made darkness? Well, can I ask you a question then on that subject matter? Well, then what was there before it was darkness? If God created darkness, then what state was he in before he created the darkness? He was just God. Just God. What do God have to be? What state do God have to be in? Amen. Remember, God is God. The title Almighty Allah, MH, will not be sufficient for him to wear if he needs help to come into being. God. God doesn't need no help. God is a self-existing one. Always was. No beginning, no ending. We need help, not Him. So again, I'm asking, is that teaching that God created himself from darkness, is that not a direct contradiction to what the scriptures just said and what the Quran just said? Allah, the Eternal, the Absolute.

Absolute. Now, go ahead, brother. Now, according to the Bible, in the third chapter, chapter of Habakkuk, it speaks about how God came from Teiman. Yes. Brother D is a little bit better on the subject than I am. Like I said, I'm not really familiar. Or, you know, if another brother would like to come up and aid you, he can. I invite any brother from the Nation of Islam who desire to come up here and talk about the greatest of the greatest. Amen. Listen, let me make one thing clear. We're not here trying to belittle our brothers. No. We're not here trying to show them up. We are here that God may be represented and get down to choth. What is your name, Brother D? Brother D. Pleasure to meet you again, brother. You can come closer to the microphone and say exactly what you desire to say. Okay. I like to say, Assalamu alaykum. Hello to the ones who are not Muslim and not familiar with those terms. I am a friend of Brother Tom Smallwood. I'm just here for support. Uh, I'm not really, uh, authorized to speak on the subject about anything has anything to do with the nature of Islam. Although I do read the teaching and all the Muhammad's books, peace be upon him. What I know about God being man is that in Habakkuk, that I have read, 3:3, speaks about where, and if anyone have any doubt in mind of guessing what God can be or where he is, the way he could be, um, you want the brother to read it for you? Habakkuk chapter 3 and Habakkuk chapter 3 and verse 3. MH. "God came from Teiman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran." Saah. All right. Okay. Now, right there is saying that where God came from. Now, if I wanted to know where God came from, then I had no business speaking about or trying to guess where he came from. If the book is saying exactly where he came from, I'm just trying to use a little bit of common sense here, that's all. So help me understand, um, so even though this says God came from Teiman, yes, sir, you're saying it is that scripture that mean God had a beginning? Is that what you're saying? Because, uh, my brother, if you're saying that scripture mean God had a beginning, then if God came from darkness, was Teiman in darkness? Te, if that's what that mean? Well, for, you know, it all depends how you look at that. Well, you know, and I know Teiman was not born to later. The Earth was already here. What that scripture is saying to me, my understanding is that God is just simply man. Amen. Amen. A human being. A son of another man. And if God can be any else and everything else, if he's God, can he be man too? So you're saying Allah is a man? That's what I'm saying. You came from Teon. Teon, uh, is, uh, a son of another man. To be a son, you must be begotten. Is that correct? Correct. Correct. All right, let's examine back at the Quran, the Surah chapter 1, 1, Surah 1, verse one again. Yeah. Say, "He is Allah, the one and only. Allah, the Eternal Absolute. He Beth not, nor is he."

[Applause]

Begotten. Now, if the Quran is, is the basis of the Nation of Islam, then they must change their teaching. That's right. To be in agreement with the Prophet Muhammad, or you must say Allah lied. That's right. Okay. Because Allah said He's not begotten. Begotten of what? What do you mean He's not conceived? Was Allah ever born? And if He was born, who's His mother? I know you're not a Catholic, because you know ain't no woman in.

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Heaven. Can a, can a man be everlasting? Can a man, a human being, be eternal? And can a man be absolute? Absolute mean perfect. You know, and I know there's imperfection, perfection in us, but not in God. Well, talk to me. God. God to me is the truth. Which God you speaking of? I'm speaking about the one God who is truth. Truth to me, truth is God. Yes, sir. All right. Truth is something that resides inside human beings. All right. The spoken truth. The word of truth. The B, the true, um, God is it just simply to me, who, if I'm not, uh, mistaken in the scripture about, uh, He manifest Himself in the flesh. All right. Now, there's a lot of things in the scripture that are questionable. Okay. There are some things in there, uh, in the book that, uh, need to be explained. To let me, let me, let me help you out a little bit. Scripture you quoted, God was manifesting in the flesh. Does that mean God was flesh? No. Um, it means that God manifest the truth. But in the flesh, are you saying, and go ahead, brother, are you saying that mean God became flesh, or God was flesh? Well, I'm saying that the truth that was in man, yes, which was the flesh that was used to become to perfect God. It represent the will of God. Represent the will. And it wasn't God. That flesh. Well, at that time, I guess you will say it was God because God manifest itself in that flesh. Okay. If you read in, uh, Matthew 24:27, speaks about a, a man coming. I mean, the scriptures, it's always talking about man, man, man. Exactly. Man, man, man, man. We keep looking for something else besides man. Well, let me say this. Is God in you? God is in me. Allah is in you. Yes, sir. To when a thing is manifest, is it not seen? Yes, sir. You're in your suit. Yes, sir. You're manifest in your suit. Are you the suit? No, sir. Exactly. So that mean because God manifest Himself in flesh, Muhammad, a student of Master Fard Muhammad. Now we got two statements made by two messengers. And is it, is an absolute contradiction of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad to Prophet Muhammad. In Surah 6, if you don't mind me reading, verse one, "Praise be to Allah who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness." Praise be to God who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject faith hold others as equal with their Guardian Lord. Allah says here, "He made darkness." Elijah Muhammad said, "God created himself from darkness." So according to the Quran, God was here first, and then darkness came after. According to Minister Farrakhan, darkness was here first, and God came after. Who should we believe? Now, your loyalty have to be greater towards Allah than anyone else. Is that right? Our loyalty is to God Himself. Amen. If our acknowledgment of truth will take our life, truth is worth dying for. So tell us, brother, do you believe the Quran, or do you believe the message of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad on this subject? I believe the teacher of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad 100%. That's right. I also, uh, tell you the truth, I'm not really interested in how God created himself. That first God, we don't have that knowledge. Uh, what I am interested in is, I would like to talk about God coming to find a people, or she that lost. Well, let me say this. You don't need for us to look for no people yet. No. My God, we got to get God right first. What good is talking about a people if we don't know the creator of this people? Amen. When God sent the prophets, they had a complete divine message for the upbuilding of a people. Right. We talk about the greatest of the greatest. Yes, sir. You want to come up, brother? Yes. Yes, sir. Make yourself welcome. Assalamu alaykum. You want to give your name, brother? Uh, Brother Naji Muhammad. Brother Naji Muhammad. Make yourself welcome. Uh, peace be upon everyone. Alaykum. In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful. Let me give you a hand here, brother. Put it on this side for the brother. I want everyone to be able to hear what my brother's saying. All right, brother. In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful. I bear witness that there's no God to be worshiped but Allah, who created the heavens and the earth. I thank Him for all the prophets and the messengers that He had brought to us. And I thank Brother Pastor G for allowing us to come and to talk on something that have not been known for since life even began, and that is the mystery of God. And that is who is God? The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. These questions was addressed to him, and he did not address certain questions that when it came down to God creating himself. When you look for a minute and think hard, before everything that was here, before man was here, before the Earth was here, before even the universe was here, even before darkness was here, God, Allah, was here. Now, I want you to think for a minute, real hard. When God, as it was taught to us by the most honorable Elijah Muhammad, the messenger of God, and many the Muslims, the world Muslims may not accept the Honorable Elijah Muhammad as a messenger, but the Quran teaches us also that He have given us messengers that is not even mentioned in the Holy Quran. But yet, this man, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, says that he is a messenger of Allah, and he had a message to give to a people. MH. And the message that he had to give to his people was actually in the Bible. The L sheep, a particular people, to give them a knowledge of themselves, of who they are. He said, "Well, who is the black man?" He said, "The black man is the Asiatic black man, the maker, the owner, the cream of the planet Earth, God of the universe." Now, I was sitting here listening to everyone singing a song, and you said, "Jesus is God." Did you say that? All right. If you say Jesus is God, is he a man? Yes or no? Both. So he's God and he's man. But it was said that God is a spirit, and to worship Him in what spirit and what truth? Is that right? But yet the song says, "Jesus didn't say Jesus is spirit." Says, "What? Jesus is God." Now, many the Muslims say, "Well, hold it now. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. Now, Pastor G, you say that Jesus."

[Applause]

God. All right. All right. Jesus never talked about himself. Who did he talk about? The Father. What will did he talk about? Did he talk about his will, or Thy will? He talked about whose will? God's will. What is your name again, brother? Brother Naji Muhammad. Brother Naji Muhammad. Uh, that's all. Well and good. I wanted, I, I'm making points. I want to get right down. Yes. Get right down. Because like I said, we're not talking about flesh and blood. We're talking about a teaching that thousands of Nation of Islamic brothers and sisters believe that God created himself from darkness. And all I want to know out of everything that is said, the bottom line is this: either that teaching is a lie that deceived people into believing something about God that's not true, or either that teaching is true according to the Bible or the Quran. Okay. All right. Let's get back to the mystery of God. Let's get right back to the mystery of God. The Bible say, "Great is the, who is God?" As I started, there was nothing. MH. Is that right? Yes, sir. Nothing in existence. Well, hold it. What? Hold it. Hold it now. I don't mean to put you off. Go ahead. But if you said there was nothing, MH, and Elijah Muhammad said there was something. MH. What do you mean, something? Darkness is not, is that not an element? Oh, yes. I'm getting ready to dab right into that. All right. Dab. Now, I'm going to dab into it. I want you to dab. Now, brothers and sisters, as I stated to you, that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad never got into issues that are discussions of that. Yes. But let's get back into our thinking. Put our thinking caps on. There was darkness, which triple darkness, that the Elijah Muhammad said God came into. And Pastor Gino, I came here a year ago, and you said, "God can do anything." You said that. Oh, yes. That's right. So when God, when there was nothing, and even there was no darkness, but God was here. Now, in darkness, to deal with the teachings of the most, you have to deal with science. You got to deal with science. Because in darkness, there is what? Matter. MH. See, the lights that's on in here is called electricity. No one don't really understand the power of electricity. Electricity works within the conveyor of copper wire, aluminum wire, but the best is gold. The same thing that God does, He does the same within us. The spirit. The spirit of God. But before there was nothing, there was no darkness, but yet there's nothing. So now God want to bring something into existence. Instead of just nothing, that nothing in existence, He want to bring something into existence. So He.

[Applause]

Brings Himself now into existence in darkness. He had to create darkness first to come in to to because in darkness there's matter. So He comes in within that and matter into resistance. So God is made from matter. Is He made from matter? That's what you said. No, no, no. Hold it. He comes. No, listen, listen, listen carefully. Matter is materialized. Something that you can, it comes, is is real. So in order for Him to come into existence, He had to come. He had to create darkness because in darkness there's matter. Do y'all hear the contradiction? Yes. Now, brother, peace be upon all the worthy servants of God. Yes. When a thing come into being, it wasn't here before, right? If a thing come into being, it was not here. That's that's the truth. We came into being. We were not here. Right. So when you said God created Him, when a thing is created, is made. Correct? Right. Now, when self-created, when the thing self-created, self-created. If God self-made Himself, if God self-created.

[Applause]

Himself, how is He everlasting? Because we're not talking about the physical elements. Does it has a beginning? Yes. But but He had to come into a physical form. Because in your own scripture says that "I created man in what? In my image." So the form that He came, man, when He created Himself from darkness, from out of triple darkness, it was matter within triple darkness. Now, do you believe the Quran? Yes. Are you a devout Muslim? Yes. Do you believe the teachings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, Muhammad? Yes. Is that the teachings of Muhammad? Yes. Read it. What Surah? What verse? You tell me. You said it is the teachings of Muhammad that God, Allah, created himself from darkness. If that's the teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, then you should be able to go to the Quran where Muhammad taught this to the Islamic world. Amen. Okay. There was no man can be a devout Muslim and speak contrary to Allah, the Quran, and Muhammad. Amen. No Muslim in the world can be a devout Muslim. That's right, brother. And speak against Allah. Allah said He is eternal. You said He came from darkness. Who's telling the truth? Allah or you? Talk to me. Let me say this. Every prophet, a messenger that came, had a message. They may had a different message, but the principle, yes, remains the same. What is that principle, sir? The principle that there is no God but Allah. Yes. And that He is eternal. He is everlasting. And that we are to do His will. That was the message that every prophet and messenger came to us into the world. Well, I'm dealing with a different message. And the message that I'm having problem with, problem with, is that Allah created himself. In other words, Allah is self-made. He's a self-made God. Right. This is the teachings of the Nation of Islam. That Almighty God, the sender of all prophets, He is a self-made God. No prophet in the Quran or in the Bible have ever taught such a teaching. If there is a new revelation about God, it must be verified by the scriptures we have. All the scriptures. Now, that's right. That's right. We have all the scriptures now. Right. We have the Quran, the scriptures of Islam. We have the Bible. We have all the scriptures here. And we should be able to get one prophet. That's right. Amen. At least one Muhammad, or Isaiah, or David, or Jeremiah, or Elisha, or Daniel, or Abraham. The Bible says, "Bring forth your witnesses that you might be justified." Amen. That's your justification must be in here. You're giving me what some man told you who was not able to justify his teaching in the Quran.

[Applause]

Right. So why should I, of the Muslim world, believe something that this book itself do not represent God in that manner? Amen. You got to help me out, man. Talk to me. I'm going to talk to all of you. Yeah. As a Muslim and as a believer of the most honorable Elijah Muhammad, this is the knowledge that had never been told before. And I'm not here to make you a believer of the most honorable Elijah Muhammad. I'm sure that many of you had never heard that before, and that you maybe perhaps is taking face value of what is being said. But as a believer of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, I have to believe it. As a believer. Hold it. Just a minute, brother. Yes, sir. Is your loyalty, your loyalty, you are committed to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad? True. My loyalty is to Allah. Okay. Your loyalty are to the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad? Yes. Now, if we teach something about Allah that contradicts Allah, are you loyal still to that teaching?

Yes, because it's not contradicted that is not a Muslim. It is not contradicted, not at all. All this Holy Quran supposed to be the foundation of the religion of Islam. Amen. If Allah cannot be respected by Elijah Muhammad or Minister Faran or anyone else as the absolute, the eternal, self-existing, self-guided, always was, having no beginning and no ending, if he's not represented in that manner, you're not a Muslim. Amen. Be a Muslim. Amen. Amen.

Listen at what you just said. Hallelujah. I ask you that if Elijah Muhammad teach you something about Allah that contradicts Allah, would you believe it? You say yes. You are putting Elijah Muhammad above God. Amen. See.

[Applause]

No, that is incorrect. How that is incorrect? How? Brother, for one thing, who makes Muslims? Well, God supposed to make Muslims, right? So, for you to say that I'm not a Muslim, that is incorrect. Because the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, when he came to us, he said that I'm the messenger of Allah. He never said that I was a messenger of Master Faran Muhammad. He said, "I'm the messenger of Allah, and I am here to give a message to my people." Does his message supposed to be in agreement with what already Allah said in the Quran? Yes.

Do not the message that God created himself contradict what Allah said in the Quran about himself, brother? Deny the fact, brother, that it contradicts Allah, and you should not be afraid to say it. Amen. If you expect to be in Paradise with the other Muslims, peace be upon them all, you must recognize Allah first. That's right. You must agree with Allah first. We must submit to the teachings of Allah first. And if a messenger of Allah deviates from the message of Allah, then the deviation of that message is wrong. Amen.

The teachings of the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad may not be understood by many people, and there may be some confusion as far as when you hear the teachings. But in reality, it is not. It is real. And the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was and he is the messenger. That does not take away anything away from Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. That doesn't take anything away from him because we believe in Prophet Muhammad. Because it was not him, there would not be a foundation at all.

Oh, so if it was, I'm so glad you said that. Yes. If it wasn't Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, then it wouldn't have been no foundation, right? So, are the Muslims required to follow the foundation laid by Prophet Muhammad? Yes. If they are required by the Quran to follow the message, then every Muslim that comes with the message from the Quran must agree with Allah. True? Yes. Amen.

Did the Honorable Elijah Muhammad agree with Prophet Muhammad? Yes. Prophet Muhammad says, "God is eternal," and that "Allah made darkness." The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, "God created himself from darkness, triple darkness, or quadruple or mass darkness, whatever way you desire to put it." My sole interest is what the scripture says, right, right. We cannot teach Muslims from the scriptures and then disbelieve the scriptures. Amen. Is that right? Amen. That's right.

My Muslim viewers that hear us around the world and that walk us through America, you, we cannot, you cannot disbelieve the Quran and then read from the Quran. You disbelieve. Amen. That's right. We cannot say that Muhammad laid the foundation, then a teaching come along that contradicts the foundation that was laid. The scriptures teach us this. The Bible says, "Other foundation no man can, no man lay than that which is." So again, we got a stiff contradiction. As I stated to you, Pastor Gino, that Prophet Muhammad, he has set a foundation.

And when you see the, uh, Kaaba, which is in Mecca, yes, you know, as a believer, as a Muslim, we are to visit at least once in a lifetime. Yes, sir. To walk around a Kaaba seven times, which that's a significant sign, it means something. Yes, sir. And to also is to kiss the black stone. So, what is the purpose of kissing, kissing the black stone, and what is the purpose of walking around a Kaaba seven times? Uh, sir, I don't, I don't know the purpose of kissing the stone. I don't know the purpose. I don't mind acknowledging, I don't know the purpose of walking around it seven times. But I do know the purpose, how that stone got here. God created everything. And, um, we're not dealing with walking around the stone. No, we're not dealing with kissing it. We're dealing with the maker and sender of all prophets. You see, it is unnecessary for us to talk about all this other stuff until we get God right. That's right. First thing first.

Listen, we, we can't talk about God like he's somebody from the hood. Amen. The representation of God is going to judge us. And if we misrepresent God, we'll be a damn people. Amen. God is perfect. God is absolute. God is infallible. Amen. Amen. The teaching that God created himself, that God was made, I firmly believe it's a lie. Amen. And I got scripture in the Bible and the Quran that will justify me saying so. That's right.

You say that Jesus is God. Is that right? We're not talking about Jesus being God. No. Talking about that? No. We ain't talking about man. We ain't talking about flesh. We ain't talking about Mary. We ain't talking about Joseph. We're not talking about, uh, Ishel or Isaiah or Isaac. We're talking about God and the mystery of God. We're talking about God and how God came into being. If he came into being, a divine being, he came, he became a divine being, he came as a divine being. Was God always? Was he always? Is and shall always be? So he wasn't created? Self-created? Will you please show us in the scriptures where such a teaching is there? Because, brother, you know, and I know, and the viewing audience know, and everybody here knows that this brother's loyalty to Elijah Muhammad has exceeded his loyalty to God. And he would not say that Elijah Muhammad did not teach you. Amen.

In my closing, brothers and sisters, you know, when prophets and messengers came, they ridiculed him, they mocked him, they laughed at him. But when reality came, they realized that the message that was brought to the people, it was true. So you can laugh, you can ridicule me or the teachings of the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad. It's fine. Disrespect. No, don't misunderstand. We're not laughing at you. We don't want you to misrepresent me. Right. I'm not laughing at you. I'm not ridiculing you. We're dealing with truth. The reality of Allah. The truth is plain and simple. If I teach something about God that's not true, and it contradicts the scriptures, you are justified saying I'm alive. That's right. Amen.

See, all messengers of God have a power or an authority that's greater than they. That's right. And they must respect God and represent God correctly. All I'm saying is that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, if he is and was the messenger of Almighty Allah, then why would he tell you something about Allah that the religion of Islam have nothing to do with? Make me understand why the messenger of Allah will teach you something about Allah that has nothing to do with Allah. Amen.

I believe it's in Surah 7 that Allah tells the, uh, angels to bow down to, uh, I mean, to bow down to the angel. Yes. And the angel or, uh, would not bow to him. But Allah is saying to bow to, telling, uh, to bow to the angel. But the angel said, uh, said, "No, I'm not going to bow." And Elijah said, "Why would you not bow?" Because he said, "I'm made out of fire and I'm better than you." So, but what is my point? We say that the, uh, is God? Yes. But yet in the Quran, Allah says in, uh, to an angel. And yet in the Muslim world, we used to worship no one but Allah. What is your point, brother? My point is that when the Honorable Elijah Muhammad came to us, he wanted to show the world that who we are, that we are gods. And in your Bible, it says that we are the children of the Most High. [Music] God. The Most High God. We are gods. We are not Allah, but we are gods. Mhm. And our will is connected with Allah. And that we are capable of doing powerful, great things. But in God's will, I agree with that 100%, brother. I agree with that 100%. Uh, I have no quarrels with that at all. Uh, my, uh, discussion is not with the children of Allah, or that we are gods, but talk about the gods, God of Heaven and Earth. And I'm telling you, either we, as the people of God Almighty, tell the truth about him, amen, or lie about him, amen. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. It is written in Surah 6. Allah says he's eternal, absolute. The Bible says, mhm, "From everlasting to everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." When you say everlasting, that's no beginning. Everlasting, is there an ending or beginning to everlasting? Okay. Is it? Let me make a point before you make your point. Can you answer that question? Yes. There is a beginning to everlasting. There is an everlasting. There is. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said that everything it does has a beginning somewhere, but it was not, there was no one to record the beginning. Now, let's say that you here, you're 35 years of age. And brother, he made a good point when he mentioned it the other day, brother, eternal. Now, if you're 35 years, let's say you're 35 years of age, all right. He said, "Well, where did you come from?" Well, I come from my mother. Okay. But how old are you? I'm 35 of age. What were you yesterday? Well, yesterday I was 3, was 35. But 12 months ago, I was 34. Okay. What were you when you was 34? Well, 12 months, I was 34 of age. Now, what were you the following year? I was 33. What were you when you was 1 year of age? Well, I was 12 months. What were you when you was one month? I was 32 days old. What were you when you was one day old? I was 24 hours old. What were you when you was in the womb of your mother? How, how far back you going, brother? Oh, we going all the way back. We going all the way back because there is, when it comes, I'm going to take you home because there is, there is no, there's no ending to it. To what we are here. There's no ending. Even to our birth. You cannot find the birth record of the black man. This is scientifically the truth. Well, let me say this. Let me say this. Let me finish my point, brother. Pastor Gino. Go ahead, sir. You cannot find the beginning of our birth, all right. Right. But you can find the beginning of other people's race. You said, "Well, there are, we are one race of people." Well, we as black, we don't consider ourselves as race because we consider ourselves as the original. Everything that came after us begins to be what? A race. But eternal actually begins in us, the black man. You can take it or you can leave it alone. Now, that is everlasting. What is everlasting? Black man. Oh, yes, sir. Yes. Black man is everlasting. Everlasting, connected with the Creator. All. [Applause] [Music] Right. Let's break it down. Break it down. Amen. Because he don't understand. Break. Sounds good, but he don't. [Applause] Understand. When you say everlasting, that title is not, not given to no one but Allah. God. That's right. That's right. Man never bears the title everlasting. Did Prophet Muhammad give man the title everlasting? No. Allah. He's everlasting. No. You said man is everlasting. I said the black man. All right. Black man, he is everlasting. Everlasting, connected with the Creator. Does the Quran teach that? Does the Quran? No. The messenger teach that. Does his found, does his message supposed to come from the Quran? The Quran teaches us that believe in Allah and his messenger. But if you're going to believe in Allah, and if that messenger is the messenger of Allah, will he not bring you the message according to the Quran? Yes. Did that message come from the Quran? Did that message? No, no, sir. You're right. It didn't. No, but my point, but my point is this. Let's say this. Listen to this. Say on. On. Take your time. The Quran, the Holy Quran, right? Teaches us again that Allah, he is the messenger. And the messenger, wherever the messenger says, we believe. All right. Even though it's not in the Quran, but we believe. Now, Jesus walked the planet Earth. Did he or did he not? And there were things that he done. Did Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, he did things, right? But in the Hadith, the Muslim believe certain things that what Prophet Muhammad did and what he did not, what he said, what he did, what he said. But yet, you will find things in the Hadith that is not in the Quran. Does the Hadith contradict the Quran? Does the Hadith? No, sir. The Hadith supposed to be inspired by the same spirit that inspired Prophet Muhammad. Excuse me. The Hadith, does that supposed to be inspired by the same spirit that inspired Prophet Muhammad to write the Quran? Prophet Muhammad did not write the Quran. Well, excuse me, if I said it wrong. It's the same spirit that sponsored the Hadith, sponsors the Quran, authorizes it. Well, there are many Muslim scholars who made the, uh, as far as making the, the Hadith, studying the history of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon them. So, putting, putting together the Hadith. But my point is, writings contradict the Quran. Oh, no, sir. But no, sir. But do some Hadith may not be good? Because there are some scholars that gives another interpretation that does not actually correspond with the Quran. That's my point. Right, right. Now, that's my point too. Now, you're coming around the mountain. All right. I want to get up there too. Now, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, I'm sorry, the messenger of Allah to the Nation of Islam. I want to read something in the Bible. The reason why we put emphasis on, let us believe what is written. Written. Listen at the scriptures. Romans chapter 15 and at verse 4. For whatsoever things were written a four time, whatsoever things were written a four time were written, were written for our learning, for our learning, that we through patience, that we through patience, not get in a hurry, but be patient and comfort, and comfort or consolation of the scriptures, of the scriptures, might have hope. So, if I'm required to have hope in the messenger of Allah, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, then he must bring me the scriptures for my learning. That's right. And his teaching must be in compliance with the scripture of Muhammad. Amen. That teaching that God created himself from darkness, triple darkness, or quadruple darkness, and the black man being everlasting, the black man being eternal, the black man being always was. If the black man always was, he is himself Almighty Allah. That's right. And I defy any black man in this building or in this pulpit to tell me you are Allah. If a black man in here is God, I'm going to beat God today. That's right. That's right. No man, no religion is going to belittle God. Amen. God is not. God is Almighty. Yes. We are. [Music] Weak. That's right. We have problems in the flesh. That's right. Man fornicates. God don't fornicate. Amen. Man lies. God don't lie. Man dies. God don't die. That's right. That's right. That's true. Pastor. Pastor Gino. Yes, sir. All praise be to Allah. When you say that, I, I'm not saying that I'm Allah. I'm not Allah. When you say you're everlasting, the black man is saying he's everlasting. Let me, let me say this, uh, Pastor G. Yes. You come to help him also, brother. He's coming. What is your name, brother? Brother, I mean, brother, you want to go ahead, brother. Then help. Let me, let me make this point. Yes. We are not, I'm not saying that I am Allah. No. But I am saying that I am a part of God's creation. That I'm connected with him. That I can agree with. But how can you make that statement then put the word everlasting? Because there's no birth record, and you cannot find the birth record of the black man. Even though there is no birth record, can we not deny the black man was created? Yes. So, if he was created, that means he wasn't always here. And if he wasn't always here, he got a father, right? And if he got a father, God is his father. God is his originator. So he came into being. So the title everlasting cannot be attached to man. Let me, let me say this. That, I am not God, the Allah. But yes, again, I am connected with him. I agree with that. And that your Bible teaches the same thing. I am in full agreement with that. And that there's going to come a time that there will be, there will not be fornication. There will not be adultery. Yes. It's going to come a time that man is going to uphold the law of God. I agree. There's going to come a time that there will be no evil. Yes. There's going to be a time that there will be no wrongdoing. To me, and yet it will be the men that uphold the law. So, even though man does fornication, yes, even though man does, ain't woman too, ain't leaving you out either, do, uh, adultery. But yet, it's going to come a time of the new world order that there will not be evil, wickedness, badness, wrongdoing, because it is man, with the help of God, will uphold the law. I'm in full agreement with that. Yeah. You believe that? Believe that. Want to turn the microphone over to. All right, brother. Thank you. Uh, brothers and sisters. Yes. Yes. Introduce the brother. Let me put this on to brother here. I want to thank brother N. Yes, sir. I want my brothers to be com. Put this in your inside enlightenment. Uh, right now, we'd like to bring up, uh, I mean, Halif. And I just want to say in closing, I want to thank, uh, Minister Gino for allowing me to speak, right? And I just want to say one thing. Um, one day, when the time comes, I'd like to talk about God's coming. We can talk about God, or that first God, how he was created, all day. But when the time comes, I'd like to talk about his coming, not Jesus, but God coming first. And with that, I'd like to say thank you. Bring up, I mean, yeah. Uh, yes, brother Smallwood. You can say something before. Go ahead, brother. Yes, we, I also would like to say, closing, again, we knew that this was going to be a very, very difficult subject to touch on. We knew it, brother, from the door. So we didn't come like, you know, like we really had it. We just wanted to show you that we stood and we stand on what we believe in. Even though you have a lot of followers out here as well, you know, I mean, that really may not even can, you know, I mean, uh, defend their faith, but they'll hold on to it. Brother Smallwood, word. You and I have talked, my over. Yes, sir. I mean, we have talked more over. Let us just be right down to earth, one brother to another. Right. If, if I was your leader, regardless to how much you love me as your leader, and your teacher, and your guide, could you support a teaching from me that is incorrect? No, I couldn't. I couldn't support you. But I know I wouldn't know that as a student. If I was a student of yours, was I know that there's a lot of things that you will teach that I may not fully understand. I agree. That's what I'm saying. This, listen to me, please. Please, brother. See, this is how it is with the Honorable. This is how it is with faith. Now, some people can quote scripture. You got brother William right here. He's a very good man at doing what he does with the Bible. Find a certain chapter. Everybody's not good at doing what he does. You have some brothers that can sing, you know, I mean, it's well. Some sisters that can. Everybody's not good at what they do. So they, you know what I'm saying? So if I'm a student of yours, as we are students of the, trying to become students and growing into the, and maturing into the lessons of Almighty God, sure. There's going to be issues and subjects that I'm sure that even some of your followers have that, you know what I'm saying? They're listening to you at times and don't really understand in context what it is. I'm in, I'm in agreement with that. But should not the lessons be in the scriptures? Sure. The lessons. Well, sometimes we could, going back to the Prophet Muhammad and the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Look how the Holy Quran comes back. I'm just giving you a small example, okay? The Bible, for example, I know we're not on this subject. Go ahead. The Bible calls Jesus the son of God, right? Right. But the Quran says, no, sir, that Allah does not have a son. Now, just from that perspective, it would look as though the Prophet Muhammad and the revelation that he received from Allah was contradicting the Bible. But in essence, is it? I understand what it says. No, but I'm just, no, I don't think you do. No, I don't think you do. Because if you do, but I'm just saying, most Christians do. I don't want to categorize you. L, but I want to say, know, but I want to say, how at times it may appear as though it is contradicting, but it's not contradicting, right? I think, and from what I've understood from reading on the Holy Quran, there are times when when Allah says, or as the Bible says about Jesus being called the Son of God, and here comes Muhammad with a revelation from God saying that Jesus is not his son. But in essence, Jesus was a son of God. In the Quran, he's not a son of God, meaning that he's not a son of God by flesh, right? Because most Christians are under the misconception from their ministers and pastors that Jesus was the flesh and blood son of the creator, making it look, therefore, charging God with the act of adultery. So, Allah, in order for him to straighten out that confusion, he sends a revelation down that says why Jesus was not his son. That's just an example. It appears, right? It appears as though there's a contradiction, unless you understand. Now, for what about those who don't understand? Look at how they're walking away, you know what I'm saying? Believing and blaspheming God just because of what they, they're walking away not really clearly understanding exactly. That's what the point that I was trying to make. I agree 100%. But the only point that I'm striving to make to my brothers from the Nation of Islam, God is perfect. That's right. God is infallible. Amen. No flaws, no errors. The creator of the human family. If the Prophet Muhammad wrote in the Quran, the message being used by Allah, that's the Muslim communities may live their life by those teachings, then any other man who declared himself to be messenger of Allah, especially when you talk about God, how can you tell me you will believe it just because Elijah Muhammad said it? Yes. But it's not so much of what he said, it's his work that we bear witness to. Because we never before, never before in the annals of history, and as far as I've been living, I've never seen a man that came on the scene and did a work in the way that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was was blessed to do it. He took people and even baffled the minds of world scientists by taking people that was in the gutter, bringing them up from nothing, cleaning them up. Brother, here was a man that was taught by God, that had a third-grade education. Now, if this man wasn't taught by God, and yet he was able to produce men like Minister Faran, who had a three-year college education but never graduated, who took a man like Malcolm X, who had an eighth-grade education, and took Muhammad Ali, who would have been just an ordinary fighter, brother, and and and taught that man and made that man and made those men command the attention and the respect from the world. And I think that what we should, what we should do, is we should examine the works of that man, and then look very, very closely at that man. Because unless, just as a diamond, as we discussed it earlier, okay, before we got, before we came here, the only reason why you look so close at the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, forgive me if I'm wrong, is so that you can find the flaw. And that's the only way that you'll ever know if a diamond is genuine. You must find the flaw. No, I don't look. I will openly admit, and I do respect, right, the work that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad done. I respect that. What he done in the community of the black man, I openly and publicly and worldwide respect that. Sure. I respect that. How he redeveloped many of the black brothers and sisters who was drug dealers and dope dealers and, uh, murderers and thieves. I respect all that. We're not against that. We have no problem to against that. His knowledge of business, how he established business to motivate the black people. Yeah. We, as a human being, I have no problem with that whatsoever. Never have and never will. The problem I have is this teachings of God. Not a restaurant or business thing. A m. I'm talking about God. This is my problem. I would admit to anyone that Elijah Muhammad came on a scene and brought a message to black men and women that was different from the message of their time. Am yet it had similarity to the message of Marcus Garvey. Yes. Similarity to the message of the Honorable Noble Drew Ali. We have no problems with that, brothers. So it isn't that I'm trying to seek to find out wrong. We here for truth. That's right. I want to just, you know, sign off. All right, brother. Brother. And thank you again. My name is, uh, I mean, Kise. I'm a registered believer of the Honorable Salis Muhammad. I'm, uh, not at all here to represent the Nation of Islam under the Muhammad, but I'm here to represent myself. All right. Uh, brother, I was listening to you and, uh, you had made some statements in reference to, uh, perfection of man not being perfect, man not being perfect like God Almighty himself. Okay. What is this? Well, that's a red book, right? Did you speak the truth or you just, or you did you lie? Oh, I spoke the truth. But then in that case, you spoke the perfect truth. That makes you, that makes you perfect in that aspect. Man can be perfect in speaking the truth. You're looking at on the physical side. No, I'm not. Man can be perfect in speaking the truth. Through your children, their children down the line. So man can be perfect. And another thing, brother, you was mentioning different things about God using pronouns referring to God as a he and you. My perception of you being an intelligent black man, using God as a he, a spirit. Me. Go ahead, brother. Using God as a he, referring to a physical human being. N, no, that's not true. You know, I can use the word he and talk about the Lord. That's right. Right. Well, if you're talking about a Lord, to me, I didn't say a Lord. Okay. When you say the Lord, is that Almighty Allah? For me, the Lord, when you say the Lord, that's God. When you say a Lord, that's can be you and I. Right. Okay. Now, is that right? I'm trying to use righteous understanding. I'm not trying to. Right. And righteous intelligence. What you trying to sway me into this, uh, eccentric Christian type ideology of what God is. What is the composition of God? Brother Smallwood would know better than that. I'm not like that. But what is the composition of God? Uh, the composition of God. What do you mean? Make me understand. Uh, can God hear? God said he hears all things. Okay. Now, we got one composition. Verify that. Man getting here. Can God talk? Oh, yeah. He speaks from the heavens. Then you verify again that man again. Now, you're saying that, uh, God, you, I heard you say God is all-knowing, all-wise. Yes. He's also omnipotent. Is man all-knowing? Yes, he is. You know everything? No, but no. Listen, listen. See, see, see, you want to joke. You want to be foolish. You want to joke and laugh. But you, you want to joke and laugh. But see, what I'm saying to you, I had, listen, I have, I'm being truthful. I'm not standing up here and trying to put on, um, make up something that is, is, is not true. I'm trying to be truthful as I can. You are a Muslim? Yes, I am. You believe in the Quran? Uh, I believe that the Quran and the Bible have been tampered with. So, do you believe? All right, just a minute. Just a minute. Do you believe that Allah created all things? What Allah? God Almighty. Almighty. Put it that way. Like I said, if, when you talk to brothers like me, you have to use righteous intelligence when you're describing something. When you say mighty, you're talking about something physical. Almighty. What I'm saying, only a man can be almighty. It was a man that put these things together. But I don't know nothing outside of man that did anything other than what man did. You, with him, created the son? Just a minute, brother. Just a minute. You, with him? Of course. Now, holy, what mous? You said you represent. I didn't say I represent any mous. I said I'm not here to represent. Okay. What mous do you represent, if any? I'm a registered believer of the Honorable Muhammad. All right. Let us see who's responsible for children getting here. In Genesis chapter 30, listen and begin reading at the first verse. You see, you can't tell me nothing. Get away with it without it being written. Amen. It is written for our learning. That's right. Listen. Genesis 30 and at verse 1. And when Rachel saw that she be Jacob no children. When Rachel saw she did not bear Jacob no children. Rachel envied her sister. Not that they wasn't trying. That's right. That's right. They were trying. That's right. And she was jealous of her sister. Right. Rachel envied her sister. Rachel envied her sister. And said unto Jacob, and said to her husband, Jacob, give me children. Give me children, or else I die. Or else I'm going to die. And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel. Anger was kindled against Rachel. And he said, And he said, Am I in God's stead? Am I, am I God's stead? Who hath withheld from thee? God hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb. The fruit of the womb. God. You still have not verified what God are you representing? God Almighty, creator of all things. Then you're telling me about a physical God. You tell, when you say mighty, you're talking about something. I said God, all. And I'm trying to understand what do you, what you're saying to me. I'm talking about the God that made this planet that you're standing on. Right. You don't have that knowledge. You can't comprehend his knowledge. That's right. How you going to comprehend his knowledge? You weren't even there. God didn't make the heavens and the Earth. Well, pardon me. Pardon me. God didn't make the heavens and the Earth. Yes, he did. Are you on the Earth? Yes. Well, I comprehend that. Okay. Well, what I'm saying, wait a minute. Wait. I, he that comprehends that you're, what you comprehend is what you're reading out of the scriptures. Which, how did you get here? Through a man and a woman. How did they get here? Through a man and a woman. All right. How did they get here? The other ones get here? The man and a woman. Who began everything? I don't have that knowledge. We don't have that. See, be truthful. Tell me, we don't have that knowledge. Be truthful. Are you telling me I have Muslims here now who don't even believe in Allah? I do believe in Allah. You're looking right at him. You, God, the messenger said that every black man and child is God, and the white man is the devil. Are you [Music] Almighty? Just a minute. Just a minute. Just a minute. Are you the Almighty Allah? No, I'm not the Almighty Allah. But I am Almighty. You are? No, I'm not the Almighty Allah. You are Almighty? Yes, I am. I can pick you up. I can pick that brother up. I can't. If you use righteous intelligence, you're trying to give me spookism. You can, you can do all you. I'm understand. Listen. Is God a spirit? Yes, he is. That resides in me, according to the scripture. The temple of God resides in you, not outside of you, not in the trees and in the breeze. Knowledge is found in the house of man. How do knowledge get there? Do another man. How do that man get there? Another man. And how do he get it? Do another man. I did the first man get it? I have, I don't have that knowledge to say that. Well, I got knowledge to say it. Well, okay. Where did you get that knowledge that you don't have knowledge? Said if you don't have it, I'm going to teach you today, and I'm going to give you some knowledge. But let's dive into the Bible. Amen. Amen. You don't have knowledge. If you don't have knowledge, where all things come from? Come from? Then let us get that knowledge from the prophets who got their knowledge from God. Well, Prophet. Right. Prophets are men. Whether they get their knowledge from, from other men. Isaiah, who did Isaiah get his knowledge from? From another man. Who did Muhammad get his from? Another man. Who was the man? Master Faran Muhammad? No, I'm talking about Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad, over 1400 years ago. What man gave him revelation? Another man. Was I don't have that knowledge. I'm being truthful. Lord, I'm being truthful. See, see, what I'm saying is, I can't make anything up. See, what you're doing, you're going to the book. We know that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad by way of the angel Gabriel. Believe was a man, a man, a flesh and blood man. But see, oh, Gabriel was flesh and blood. But see, just, just a minute, brother. Hold it. Backtrack. Backtrack. Okay. The, the Quran teaches how the angel Gabriel came to the Prophet Muhammad. You're talking to me in an Arab theology. We're talking about the signs of what the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is talking. Listen, listen, listen. Let's get down to the Quran. Yeah. Prophet Muhammad, messenger of Almighty Allah, received the message from the angel Gabriel. Is that correct? That's correct, sir. Was [Applause] Gabriel flesh and blood, or was he the angel as we agree? Or was that angel spirit? Flesh and blood. It, you mean to tell you trying to say there's an angel with this big old wings? I didn't say that. Okay. What are you talking about? You, we're talking about men. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not dealing with bookology. I'm dealing with physical. Now, let's deal with the angels of heaven because you have angels of heaven and angels of Earth. That's right. That's right. That's right. So, in fact, what do you mean by heaven? Just a minute. Let us just see what the scripture says about Gabriel. Did they have any airplanes back then, by any chance? You think, you think they had, you know, airplanes that so the men can fly around back then? Uh, I, brother, I really don't know. Could Gabriel fly? I don't know. Uh, what are you getting here? What's your point? Because you know, flesh and blood can't fly unless they're in a plane or a jet or helicopter or something. Would you agree? Yes. So, did Gabriel fly? I don't know. What do you think? Do G, did Gabriel fly? I agree with brother. You don't know either. Know, back in those days, I guess you could. So, so they had airplanes as far as him having wings on the back. I, I ain't talking about wings. I just simply ask, could Gabriel fly? If there was airplanes or spaceships back in those days? Yes. So, uh, back in the days of, uh, Jesus and Daniel and Abraham, they had airplanes and jets flying around? We don't know. I say, if, if they had those machines, yes, they could fly. Cuz that's the only way man can fly. That's the only way man can fly. That's right. God can't take man somewhere without the aid of a machine. What God you talking about? A spook God. Can a spook spirit take me nowhere? Matter of fact, you had made a statement about your God, uh, if, if anybody, quote me if I'm wrong, about is calling himself Allah, you will beat them up. Well, here's a quarter. Tell your God to pick that up. Now, watch my God, my Lord. My point to show you there is nothing over me but me. There is no God over me. A matter of fact, I beat your spare God up before. The Bible says, "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." Move. God. I got a fool here. I got a fool here. Now, is it, you mean to tell me there is no power greater than you? Power represents something physical, right? Intelligence. Power greater than yourself. Another man, probably bigger and stronger than me. So, who made the universe, man? My Lord. [Applause] There's no God. There is no spirit God over the black man, woman, and child here in America or outside of America. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that the black man is God and the white man is the devil. That's the bottom line. All right. All right. All right. That's, I, that's enough. I'm done with him. Okay. [Music] If a man believes that, it ain't no power higher than himself. I can't help that man. Romans chapter 13. But let's see, is there a power greater than God? Mhm. Listen. Romans chapter 13 and at verse 1. Let every soul, let every soul be subject, be subject unto the higher powers. Unto the higher powers. For there is no power, there is no power but of God. But of God. The powers that be, the powers that be are ordained of God. Let's see what is man worth. Amen. Let's see what man is even worth. Amen. Whether you're black, is the street. That's right. White is milk, yellow is btle of cleansed water. Amen. You black man and black woman, amen. You dust. That's all. And when you die, the worms will devour your fuselage. That's right. Talk to me. Amen. Amen. My Lord. Let's see what man is worth. The value of man. In Isaiah chapter 40, the prophet declared and at verse 6. Isaiah 40 and 6. The voice said, Cry. The voice, God said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry, Lord? What do you want me to say? All flesh, the scripture says, all. No, just black flesh. All flesh. Just white flesh. All flesh. Green flesh. All flesh. Blue flesh. All flesh. All flesh is what? Is grass. Right. If you are the Almighty, you should never die. Amen. If you are the Almighty, you shouldn't get sick. That's right. If you are the Almighty, you shouldn't have to submit to the Quran. You are God himself. That's right. Psalms 39. Psalms chapter 39 and begin reading at verse 4. Begin reading at verse 4. "Lord, make me to know mine end." Lord, make me to know my end. So, I guess, my brother, if you happen to die, and I go by the casket and look upon you, am I looking upon a dead Almighty God? No, my Lord. That, yes, it's not God, sir. It's through my children and through other brothers and sisters being God overself. It's not me by myself. Brother, you stood and said that you are Almighty Allah. Is that what he said? Amen. No, I did not say that I was Almighty. I didn't say I was Almighty. Brother, I specifically, I specifically asked you, "Are you Almighty Allah?" You said, "Yes." They, I turned to Brother Smallwood and said, "I know you ain't that bad." Amen. Brother said that. Well, he said he said mighty. I didn't say I was almighty. I said I am mighty. I said I can pick that brother up there. That's your natural strength. Yeah, right. And then there are other brothers who are stronger than me. If, if you're mighty, if you are mighty, is that strength limited? Yes, it is. But if you're almighty, can you do all things? It's limited to me. Another brother can pick, pick, uh, that weight up. And another brother can pick that weight up. Man will what he want with. Is there a man, as a member of the human race, that can do all things? Only a man can speak the truth. Or a lie. Can a man do all things? Or can God Almighty, creator of the universe, do all things? Man can will whatever he wants. No, he can't. And the white man approved. Jesus, you know, he can't. Listen, I defy every religion on the earth. Amen. Amen. That contradicts God. That's right. Is not a priest, a monk, a preacher, an imam, nobody, nobody that's the Almighty outside of God himself. That's right. God is responsible for all, all of us being here. Amen. Amen. These are the end times. So now is the time to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. To be baptized correctly, call the First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ toll-free at 1-888-231-2201. That's 1-888-231-2201. Or email us at baptism@truthofgod.com. Again, if you want to be baptized, call the First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ toll-free at 1-888-231-2201. Or email us at baptism@truthofgod.com.