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Hey, I'm Kalia. And I'm Janasa. And we are >> just two girls. >> Still working at the kinks, guys. >> Yeah. Where am I supposed to be looking? I'm sorry. >> This one or this one? >> Or look at Oh, yeah. That makes sense. I just That makes sense.
>> Okay, guys. It is so good to see you in a brand new format. How are you feeling, Shanasa? I am really feeling I don't know excited like this is so cool to me. I feel like I'm at home in a way. >> Yes. I feel blessed. I feel blessed and highly favored as the Saints say. This is really this is special. So it's our first time ever shooting live together. >> Yeah. >> And you guys know that watch at home. We usually just do a Zoom cast. So for everyone who was talking about our production, >> we're upgrading for the time being. >> This is a little upgrade. We hope to have a live episode at least, you know, as much as we can. >> As much as we can. >> As much as we can. >> Whenever we're in town, we will do a live episode by the grace of God. >> Mhm. Yeah. I'm super excited. So, thank you guys for joining us. Um, today we're going to talk about something a little controversial. I think I said I think I opened with that last time, too. And right, it was controversial. Last time we talked about Lordship Salvation, once saved, always saved. >> Yeah. >> Yes. How did you feel about that episode? I'm glad you asked because I was expecting the worst. I was bracing myself for really nasty comments. >> Yeah. >> Or comments that, oh, you guys are ignorant, that type of thing. >> And people are actually really nice. >> So, I'm very grateful. And I And I also think it's because of >> perhaps the way we approach the conversation, >> emphasizing the fact that this is not an issue that will get you into or out of heaven, >> right? and we should all dwell with one another with grace and understanding as the scriptures say. And I think that's part of the reason. >> Yeah. >> So, we're kind of becoming familiar with controversy at this point. >> Yes, we are. >> Not too bad. >> Do you think there were any comments that stood out to you from the last episode that made you like rethink your position at all? >> Yes. And actually, I hope that we can do this. I don't know. Let me know your thoughts. I felt like we didn't represent at least I didn't represent the position as deeply as I would have liked to >> which is why the comments uh stood out to me. One guy said Noah's arc. He commented about like Noah's arc saying that Noah was locked in. He couldn't get out. And that's an awesome example of not being able to lose your salvation. And I instantly had a rebuttal which I will probably not share here because hopefully in the future we can have >> guys >> Yes. two guys of opposing viewpoints come on and they have their position aired, we air our position and we can kind of have like a off Dr. Daff set debate. >> That would be fun. I think that is a great idea. Yeah. So that we can have that other side represented. >> Yeah. >> And guys, we weren't trying to like be an echo chamber like other sides are definitely always welcome as we talk about these things. We know that the body of Christ is 100% diverse. So even if we seem like we're agreeing about a lot of things, never feel like it's like an echo chamber where you're not free to share your opinion about something. These are secondary issues. >> Absolutely. >> So today another controversial topic we are getting into. We are talking about cessationism. >> Yes. >> Versus continuationism. >> Yes ma'am. >> And would you like to define those terms for our audience? >> Sure. So sensationism is the belief that the gifts and the displays of power of the Holy Spirit ceased with the last chapter or last book in the Bible. Essentially, the miracles that you saw, the dreams, the visions, and all those cool action-packed things that you saw throughout the gospels that the disciples would do, it's no longer a possibility because the Holy Spirit does not do those same things through saints because it's not a need to do those things. They were for an intended purpose and an intended time. And obviously, as the name implies, continuationists believe that the Holy Spirit hasn't changed. You can still meet someone today who can prophesy. You can still meet someone today that would have dreams and visions and that can heal and that there's no distinction from the apostles in the gospels as to the disciples who follow Jesus Christ today. Great. Okay. I want you to give us your best well tell us what view you have. Okay. But before you defend your view, I want you to still man the other view. Okay. So the other view to my knowledge believes that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. I I'm not going to say in a sense. believe that people like John MacArthur, I guess, >> God bless his soul, >> would say that it's no longer possible that first Corinthians 13 says that when though I prophesied in part, when that which is full is revealed, then that which is in part will be done away with. And I think that's one of the verses that's used to demonstrate the fact that we have an ability to do this partially, but when that which is full has come, i.e. when Jesus Christ has come, when the Holy Spirit has come and and dwelt in all believers as it is today, then we have no need for those things. So, I think that is the position. Do you think I I got it or am I missing? >> No. Yeah, I think I think that's the position. I would say something that's huge for them, too, is the authority of scripture. I'm a continuationist, guys, if you can't tell yet. >> But, um, something that's huge for them is the authority of scripture. So for them, they believe that the canon is closed. The canon of scripture is closed. And therefore, God has no need to speak outside of the biblical narrative anymore because all that said has been said. And so what else needs to be added to it? >> I mean, that's interesting. But my position, I'm sure it's similar to your position, is that the Holy Spirit doesn't change. So, I was looking into this and Isaiah 11:2 is a very good read. It's talking about the millennium. It's talking about the fact that there's going to be a king that's going to reign here on this earth. He's going to rule the earth with a rod of iron. Obviously, as Christians, we believe that that's Jesus Christ. But in the second verse, it says it gives attributes that this king is going to have. And I think I recently discovered that this is what Christians call the sevenfold ministry of the Holy Spirit. So it says that this king is going to possess the spirit of the Lord, understanding, counsel, knowledge, might, wisdom, and the fear of the Lord. And the interesting thing about that to me is those functions of the Holy Spirit are still present today. In the Old Testament, you would see like limited versions. For example, when you think of might and in the Old Testament, >> who do you think of? God. >> Oh, okay. Let me qualify. Which biblical character do you think of when you think of like physical strength? >> Oh, I think of like David Samson. >> Samson, right? Yeah. So, Samson had a level or an outpouring of the Holy Spirit for an intended purpose. When you think of wisdom, who do you think of? Exactly. And so, the list goes on. For every one of those attributes, I've realized that there's a certain biblical character that at least to me stands out. Mh. >> But as Christians today, we have all of those gifts. We have all we have access to all of those things. So to argue that there is um this idea that cessationism is legitimate would mean that the Holy Spirit is not working or doing any of those things through us today. Like we we don't have wisdom anymore. Because if this is the Holy Spirit's main function, then if we argue that cessationism is a thing, then we would have to say we don't have access to the Holy Spirit's wisdom. We don't have access to his understanding, his counsel, his might. How do we account for the miracles that we see? How do we account for certain instances that we call coincidences but in reality are divine um interactions. Yeah. You know what I mean? >> Yeah, I see what you're saying. I think the cessationists would say or I I would say this to cessationists about continuationists because I think that the misunderstanding is that we also don't hold scripture in high regard. And that's not true because everything that God is speaking to us is not going to contradict his word. So if somebody gives me a prophetic word, the word tells us to test the spirits. Correct? So I'm still going to go back to the scripture and test whether or not that word is God's word. So we esteem the Bible. It's not to say that we're getting a revelation that contradicts what's already written. Right? If if an angel comes presenting another gospel, Galatians 1:6, then you don't align with that truth. You align with the gospel truth. And so I would say to anyone who's a cessationist, it's not that continuationists just believe that you get to like rewrite the biblical story. It's that we believe that the Holy Spirit is going to confirm specific things to us about our lives that are in alignment with the word of God. But if I were to steal man, the cessationist perspective as I was reading about this, you know, one thing that came up too is like when people have personal revelations, where does that stop? And obviously I would say that stops at scripture, but if you look at like the global charismatic movement, I'm not sure if you're familiar with everything happen happening with Bethl right now. Are you familiar? >> Not at all. I'm under a rock. Please enlighten me. >> So Bethl, do you you know Bethl? Yes. Okay. You know Bethl. So Bill Johnson is like huge father in the charismatic movement right now. He has connections with like Todd White, Patricia King, other big name figures, TBN, Morning Star, and um some stuff has come out recently about a prophet that they had platformed not prophesying the truth. He was actually data mining on Facebook where he would go and find information about someone, show up to a conference and say, "You have a dog named Molly." >> Weird, right? And so for the cessationists, they're like, "Your profits get out of line. Right. And we were just talking about that earlier on the show, like prophets getting out of line and they teach all these kinds of weird doctrines and things are not biblical because of the gift. And so I guess the the question and the tension is like where does when does the gift become problematic, right? Where is the person that's problematic? >> I'm still cracking up at you have a dog named Molly. >> You have a dog named M. Is that not crazy? >> That's legitimately insane. But I get the I get the apprehension. If you have no guard rails, then you're going to go off the hinges, right? So their perspective is that people that don't have >> the authority of scripture or adhere to the authority of scripture, they're going to do things like that. But I feel like there's always a way where things can be balanced. I think the truth is, as you always say, is somewhere in the middle. Yeah. And I agree with that. It doesn't have to be one extreme where it's like, okay, I'm just so afraid that people are going to abuse these spiritual gifts that I'm just going to lean to the understanding that they don't exist anymore. Because if we I my belief again is if you subscribe to the fact that the Holy Spirit is God and he doesn't change as the Bible says, then you would have to say that the Holy Spirit is still working through us. There's no other way to look at that. >> Yeah. If you don't believe that, then it's going to sound really extreme, but then you don't have a trinitarian God. You have like a benitarian God. Because to just destroy or to try to articulate a point that says the Holy Spirit is not still moving, it it eliminates his role. Like what's his function? What does he do? >> How does he help us? >> How does he help us? Like I I'll be curious to know. And another thing with me is that >> people that hold this view, they can't live it out. I've always wanted to ask. So if you have this view and you'd like to answer in the comments, please feel free. But how what do you do when you are in pain and physical pain? Do you pray to God for healing? Or is healing not like what's their I don't know if you would know what's their position? Is it that if God wills to heal me, he will heal me and I'm not going to ask him because the gifts have seized >> or is it that I'm going to actually ask him? And if you're asking him, why are you asking him because haven't the gifts seized? Or I don't know. I I I think I still need some more information. Do you have any thoughts? >> I think I think I need a little bit more too, but I would say like they don't believe in the offices. They believe that God can do miracles though. So like if somebody's grandma has cancer, they'll pray that God would heal the cancer. But they don't believe in like the office of the healer or the office of the prophet or the office of an apostle. Like nobody's walking into the church saying, "Oh, she has the gift of healing." Like that wouldn't that wouldn't be appropriate. But they believe that God can work miraculously, just I guess not through an individual person's giftings. If God wants to move on his own behalf, he will is probably what they would say. Okay? Cuz when I was younger, there was a a friend of mine that had this view and I think that he was pretty into John MacArthur and I remember distinctly him telling me like he doesn't believe in dreams. Like God doesn't speak through dreams. So maybe there are people that have that particular position about the offices, which I'm not going to lie, I am personally a little apprehensive if somebody walks up to me and says, "Hi, I'm a prophet. I'm a this so and so." Like it does not necessarily sit well with me >> because it it just doesn't line up with the character of God. Like Jesus never walked up to anyone and say, "Hey, I am the Messiah." It was more of you get to know me and you see >> Yeah. revelation over time. So, it just it comes off prideful. And I I remember speaking to one lady once and at the grocery store and she was like, "Yes, hi. I'd like to, you know, share the word of God with you. My name is Bishop Mary Magdalene." I'm like, "Girl, are you crazy?" Like, like, first of all, your name is not Mary Magdalene. >> Thank you. >> You were testing the spirit. >> Oh my gosh. So, yeah. I I will say I'm a little apprehensive about someone walking up to me calling themselves a prophet of the offices, but I've spoken to people that have this view of cessationism that are extreme like no, God doesn't speak through dreams. And if you feel like God doesn't speak through dreams, he's never going to speak to you through dreams because you're limiting God. Like why would he speak to you? Right. >> So, >> right. Yeah. If you have a barrier, if you have a barrier to where you don't want to experience God in that way, then you're not going to experience God in that way. Yeah. Yeah, because you're choosing not to. So, okay, I have a question then about about the gifts because I feel like I I feel like I have a very nuanced take on this because I grew up probably like the first 10 years of my life in a pretty like hyper charismatic Pentecostal church. And then as a teenager, I went to more of like a contemporary church that believed in the gifts, but it wasn't out of order in the same way. And then um as a young adult I worked on staff at a church that was very like reformed white Baptist and so they didn't they were cessationist for the most part >> and it was very dry in there all the time unfortunately. Um and now praise the Lord me and my husband are at a church that I feel like has this balance perfectly where our pastor is very doctrinally sound. Scripture is the center of our services and yet there's so much freedom for the Holy Spirit to move. So shout out TC if you watching. Um but yes, our church has been such a such a blessing. Um, but I was going to ask why do you feel like people tend to swing extreme? Like why is there not why do people have such a hard time doing both? Like why it's so hard for people to do both? And >> I think it's a fear response. If you grow up seeing this gift being abused, you're naturally going to swing. Or anything being abused, you're going to naturally swing in the opposite direction. >> And I don't think that we should ever make decisions, especially about our understanding of God and doctrine, out of fear. >> Yeah. >> So, I I'm with you 100% that truth is usually somewhere in the middle. >> Yeah. >> If we take off the blinders, if we take off our lens of fear, then we can arrive at truth. because I really don't understand how you can read scripture and arrive at a conclusion like God doesn't speak through dreams or you know I don't believe in prophecy or whatever the case may be because there's nothing else to say >> right >> so yeah I think it just comes from a place of fear and the opposite end of the spectrum where there is abuse because it's always a spectrum thing with these conversations yeah >> it comes from a place of >> to me how do I put this so I know a few younger people that gravitate towards like these super Pentecostal churches and I think it's because they have >> been so accustomed to like the tradition and the lifelessness and so they want to see a demonstration of God's power and they figure that this is the best way to do it and so they gravitate to these churches that end up oftentimes being like abusive churches like literally having you volunteer and serve for like 12 hours and 14 hours and so it's just a thing. It's it's I think it has a lot to do with your upbringing and what you've known Christianity to be. If it's if it was a toxic version, then you're gonna swing in the other direction. >> Yeah. So, people try not to swing extreme, which I know is hard. I feel like that's kind of our brains are kind of wired for black and white. U but I think there's actually a psychological study done too that like people who have a hard time um holding tension, it's like actually cognitive distortion. Like there's something wrong with your mind when you can only live in black or white. >> My goodness. which is crazy cuz I see that like I see that in conversations with people where I'm like I'm trying to communicate two positions and it's like >> it's like it's not clicking >> or their brains are like frazzled trying to hold two truths at once and it's like yes truth is objective >> but objectivity isn't extreme right >> so it's that's always interesting to me too because I'm like >> you guys like you would you would live a a lot more of a content life if you were able to hold two things together and a lot of people just seem to not be able to. >> I can see that. Like I said, I I think >> the cognitive issue comes from whatever the is trauma basically. >> So, I can see that cuz I consider myself black and white but not in that way. Like if someone were to approach me like even with the once saved always saved conversation and there are some people that commented I was like I can see that perspective. Um, of course that took time for me to get to that place, but I don't think I would have like a visceral reaction if someone approached me and said XY andZ. Unless what you're suggesting is Jesus is the brother of Satan, then of course there >> says objective objective truth, >> right? There's no room for that. So, I'm going to have a response. But other than that, if someone is trying to explain to me that, you know, tongues or for example, there's different types of tongues. Yeah. Um, you know, there is literal tongues. There is there are uh what is it? >> The different languages. >> The different languages. There's >> tongues. >> The spirit language. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. >> Then I can get with that. I'm not going to be like, "Oh my gosh." You know, the you know, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask. So, the spirit disperses I'm going to open up the Bible in a second too so we can read this. But the spirit disperses various kinds of gifts to everyone according to 1 Corinthians 12. So, with that being said, like healing is something that anyone can pray for and contend for. Um, do you think that that applies the same to the other gifts like prophecy and speaking in tongues? >> Yeah, I think Yeah, I think so. I don't see why it wouldn't. My only thing with prophecy is that prophecy is a very specific gift that a lot of people make room for like, oh, they're growing into their prophetic giftings. And I think that's nonsense. >> Well, they're false prophesying. there you're you're like Deuteronomy 18:22. Yeah. If someone prophesies and that thing does not come to pass, you should not fear him. That's what the Bible says. And it's a good litmus test for us because if we give so much room to these false prophets, then we end up being getting taken captive by their false teachings. So, I really believe that the gifts of God are given without repentance. They're not something that you have to like grow into like I'm growing into my ability to, you know, whatever. I think that you have a gift. You don't have a gift. >> So, >> yeah. Yeah. I think and maybe I would defer about speaking in tongues. I think that that's also a very specific gifting. And I know in a lot of charismatic circles there's this belief which I believe is heretical that you're not indwelled with the Holy Spirit until you speak in tones. Until you have the baptism of speaking in tongues, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And I don't believe that. I believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when you accept Jesus Christ into your heart. I believe the Holy Spirit seals you. And I think that fruit of the Holy Spirit is much more impactful and edifying than the giftings of the Holy Spirit. So the fruit, love, patience, peace, gentleness, longsuffering, self-control, like being able to emulate those things as a believer, I feel like is so much more impactful not only to yourself, but the people around you versus walking around saying, "I can prophesy or or I can speak in tonesues." And it even says like speaking in tonesues is for the unbeliever, not for the believer. So like even the gifts have very specific um groups that they impact versus walking out a Holy Spirit fruitful life impacts everybody around you. It's not limited in the same way. So if you did grow up in that tradition I would say too like >> man elevate the fruit of the spirit because there are a lot of people speaking in tonesues who don't know how to apologize. >> Oh my god that's a there's a that's my mom's favorite uh meme. It says, "You speak in tongues but can't apologize in English." Weird. >> Weird. >> Strange. That is so funny. >> It's like and that at that at that point I'm like, "Are you really speaking in tongues?" >> Honestly. Honestly, it's just it's very it's very strange. But what you said reminds me, I think of is it Luke 12 where the disciples approached Jesus and they were rejoicing because demons were subject to them in the name of Jesus and he said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning. Do not rejoice that the demons are subject to you, but rejoice that your name is written in the lamb's book of life. So, there's a priority. Like you said, it's about the fruit. It's about the fact that we're saved. It's not necessarily about these these gifts, per se, you know. >> Yeah. And that's interesting what you just said, too, because I think about like how certain people, they take up a certain level of like authority and pride with their gifts, too. And that's exactly what Jesus was telling them not to do. Like, it's actually not about your giftedness. It's about your salvation. the fact that I saved you and the fact that you get to spend an eternity with me. And that's that's like that's exactly like the symptom that we see in the church sometimes. It's like, oh, I'm prophet. I'm apostle so and so. But it's like >> your office does not matter more than Jesus's. >> Yeah. I I literally I ain't going to lie, Ron. When you tell me come to the church and a uh apostle such and such, I'm not going to the church. I'm not going to lie. I might I might listen to your recap. >> Yeah. But I'm not going because it it just ex to me it just exudes pride. I don't think that >> coming into a room and saying I'm prophet this >> Yeah. >> is beneficial. Like what's that supposed to do or prove? >> Right. >> I don't like it. >> I don't know. I don't know. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to read 1 Corinthians 12. Um, it's 112. Chapter 1 verse 12 starting at verse 27. And it goes through I'm going to go through 32. Now you are the body of Christ and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church, God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those who have gifts of healing. Those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, which I think is beautiful, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? do all interpret but eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way, love. >> And then it goes into >> vers 13. I speak in the tongues of angels. >> Oh my gosh, that is such a beautiful connection. It clicked to me that >> Apostle Paul wrote 12 to encourage people to explore the gifts of the Holy Spirit, right? But then he buffered it right immediately with 1 Corinthians 13, which is literally a response. He says, "If I speak in the tongues of angels um and of men and and I have not love, I'm a resounding clang or a noisy symbol. If I have faith so that mountains can be moved and I understand all knowledge, but I have not love, I am nothing." He's literally addressing all of the gifts that he just described were good. So, the idea and the concentration is not I'm apostle, such and such coming. It's love. And it's so cliche to say, but it really is true because these gifts are given for a reason. so that people can look at us and see Christ that we can reflect God's Holy Spirit that we can reflect truth. But if we're trying to reflect our truth or our name, then we are a noisy clang. Yeah. >> Or a banging symbol as the Apostle Paul would say. >> Yeah. And I feel like if the concern for a cessationist is that, you know, scriptur is not held in authority or we're just running off with our own crazy revelations and basically building cults out here, Paul's words in 12 and 13 should get rid of that fear. It should buffer it because even Paul's buffering the gifts like you said. So to the cessationist it's like what are you afraid of if the people who believe in the gifts and practice the gifts are doing so in love, right? >> If selfish ambition is removed and now when I prophesy I'm prophesying for the edification of you or the body. Why is that >> why is that a negative thing? I guess that's what I'm trying to that's what I'm trying to process because the prophecy stops at the Bible. We've already established like the word of God is is where the prophecy stops. If it if it extends past the scriptures, then we just that's null and void. We don't we don't deal with that. We call that out. We call false prophets false prophets. But if a prophet is affirming everything that's already written here, >> then why why be weird about the gifts, >> right? >> Why be weird about the gifts, >> right? So if you're a sessationist and you're watching, I would just encourage you to explore the gifts because like you said, I feel like they have a very specific role and they play a very important part of intimacy in our relationship with Jesus. Like when God gives you a dream about your future or your family or um someone else you need to pray with, like a word of wisdom about somebody else, like that is so that the church can be edified and ultimately look more like Christ. It doesn't have to be creepy. Like it doesn't have to be woo woo juju. >> It could be based in this woo woo juju. >> I'm crying. Can you give us a woo juju story? Have you had any very weird prophetic encounters? >> My sister is going to hate me for this. >> Sorry. Um, >> you need a shirt. Woo Ju. >> Woo Juju. That'll be on the merch line. That'll come out in the second uh stock of our merch line. Okay. Um, so there is a group of um praise dancers. Um, these were not like kic like black praise dancers. It was more of like uh it they came out of um the contemporary church that I went to when I was a teenager and they were like definitely more like hippie-esque free flow. It wasn't like you know step ministry, praise dance ministry. It wasn't like that. It was more so like you know just let let them move. >> I want to dance. >> You've seen the white ladies with the flags. You've seen them. Yeah. Like it was it's a different it's a different vibe. Okay. But you know, the Holy Spirit still moves. They had done some kind of a >> height. >> I'm just I'm No, I'm joking. Please, please. I love everybody. >> We love you guys. >> I love everybody. >> What color you are? >> Um, so they did a praise dance in a circle around a stuffed lion, like a stuffed animal lion. And the lion in the middle of the circle was supposed to like represent Jesus, the lion of Judah. >> Okay. >> And um that's really it. But when my sister told me that story, I was like, that's very strange. Like those are the kinds of things that someone would if a new person walked into church and saw that or went to your prayer meeting and saw that, they would think that you're doing a ritual. Like that's very like why are we dancing around a little stuffed animal lion? So I would consider that woo woo juju. Like that's just >> I have a woo hipp story. >> I lowkey do. Let me let me try to make it concise. Um not using any names of course. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Uh so there was a person that slid into my DMs >> about a few months ago and they were they said that they were interested in me. I said okay that's nice. And then they said um what did they say asking me question? why are you single? And I said, well, you know what? I don't meet any people that I like or that I'm that are really walking with Christ and I'm attracted to. This guy proceeds to lecture me and say looks are not everything that um he himself was called to marry a woman sight unseen that he wasn't attracted to and he's he has done that. So this guy's talking to me and is currently married and he's telling me that I and I stupidly start sharing like, "Oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting story. I'm gonna like, you know, take that into consideration for like maybe not being so whatever uptight, letting God, you know, speak to me in whatever way he wants to." But he was like, "No, that's not the end of the story. I'm also here to tell you I'm your husband. Like it just so happens that my marriage license expires today. It just so happen because he also asked me, "Am I attracted to him?" I said, "No." He said, "It just so happens that you're not attracted to me. my marriage license expires and I'm looking for a wife. Now, if I were a weak-minded person, I would have been like, "Oh my gosh, I would have fell for the woo woo juju would have got." >> You know what I mean? So, I can see the apprehension of cessationism because that is literally that was actually low-key traumatic cuz that was very abusive because again, if you are in a vulnerable place or you are just not discerning, you can actually give credence to what someone is saying because it it sounds right. >> Yeah. >> So, shout out to discernment. shout out to the Holy Spirit and >> you know >> and I get it. I get it because I feel like um spiritual overspiritualization can be a form of witchcraft because you're trying to manipulate people through the overspiritualization. So I do understand the like hey you guys need to stop lusting after people with the gifts because you're there's idolatry happening here and those people are actually able to abuse you because you've idolized them and you've idolized the giftings so much. So it's like it says like they've given themselves over to false doctrines and the tickling of their ear, >> right? >> And so like being very careful even of the like even of the content that I consume. Like I can't watch >> too much of the same kind of content. Have to have a gauge on how much of what specific content that we filter in because it can kind of start to shape our perspectives about theology and about God and about how God moves more than the scriptures do. if that's if that's what we're consuming all the time. >> That's a good point. Very valid point. >> Yeah. >> What are your gifts? Do you think you have any particular spirit? >> Oh my gosh. >> You want me to say putting you on the spot too much >> on air? >> Uh or what do you think? >> How about we ask the audience? What do you think our gifts are? >> I feel like that's arrogant. >> I never No, because I' I just go by what I've been told and I don't I honestly don't know. Like I I've looked at the list and there's there's a by the way there's there's some there's a list in Ephesians 4 I think it is Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12. So there's different there's different gifts but I've als I've always heard evangelism and I guess that this is like a form of evangelism cuz prior to this I was very into just walking up to strangers and saying hi if you die today would you go to heaven or hell right and that was my thing from 2017 up until just 2024. Um, so and it was just normal and natural to me. It was just like I'm going to sit next to you on the plane. I'm going to talk to you about the reality of heaven and hell. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and life. And I did not care. So I guess that would be it. Yeah. >> Um, you know, but I don't know. I also thought for a season and for a moment like discernment. >> Um, >> who knows? I really don't know. I just I just be going by what someone has told me like yes. I have no Well, what do you hear? Let me not say what do you think. What have you been told? Um, what I've been told is >> I have one teacher. >> I was about to say I want to stand before you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, definitely. I can see that. >> Teaching, evangelism, prophecy. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I think I think that's that. Oh, discernment 100%. But discernment is one of those things where I feel like everyone should Yeah. If you have discernment not tapped in, you just need to get in your word. I feel like that's not I I don't feel like that's like an office or I don't know what you would call that, but I feel like that's something that every Christian should learn how to like cuz all it is is listening to the Holy Spirit. >> So like if you can't discern that means you can't hear the voice of God, right? >> So you need to tap into the voice of God and you do that by getting into the word of God. So >> yeah, >> but yeah, I think I think those and I can see that too because I love teaching and I just I'm also very bold, which is how we met each other. >> Right. Right. >> We met each other contending for our faith. Um, and me and my husband do like shre evangelism and stuff like that. I've just I've always been that way. When we were in youth group, our youth pastors were like, me and my sister went to youth group together and they would like take us out to hand out flyers for youth ministry on Wednesday nights and praying for people. I was like the first one. I was like, "Yes, I'mma pass out that flyer. >> I'mma pray for these people." So, I just feel like um like probably just there's a supernatural emboldenment that I think I have. Not because I got it, but because the Lord gave it to me. >> I love that. I love that. >> Um, I wanted to read some of the passages that came up for cessationism. >> Okay. >> And we could like talk about why or why they don't prove that position. So, the first one is Ephesians 2:20 and it says, "Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone." And so the view of this passage is that we no longer need apostles or prophets because Jesus is the cornerstone. Why or why not? Is that true? I think it's okay. So we no longer need apostles or prophets. Again, it's not denying the fact that Jesus is the chief cornerstone. If you have someone that can prophesy or that is a prophet, it doesn't take away from that. A true prophet is pointing you back to Christ. The whole purpose of gifts is to point people to Christ, to evangelize, to edify, to encourage. So those two things are not mutually exclusive. >> Christ is always the cornerstone, but there are people that are um prophets or apostles. And let's break down apostles. >> Give me a a working definition of apostilhip. I think it's just essentially a church leader in a sense. I could be wrong about that, but >> yeah, I think an apostle is like a disciple, but a disciple that's been commissioned to leadership, >> right? >> So, I don't think that someone who has that calling has to be at odds with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. Jesus is filling and and encouraging and living through us. The Holy Spirit lives in us. By extension of that life, we are going to do ministry and it's going to look prophetic. M >> can you imagine like if >> if if prophecy really wasn't a thing at all. There were no dreams, there were no visions. Like how bleak. >> I mean, I'm not saying I'm not and I don't want to say that this the word is not enough. I obviously believe the word is enough. But I do also understand that God is a God of like practicality. If he wants, for example, the Apostle Paul >> was going to Macedonia. Yeah. He had a vision and it was like come here. He spoke to him through a vision to navigate him. God still does the same things today. So again, I don't think those things have to be at odds. That's what I would say. >> Yeah, that was really good. I think what came to mind as you were talking was like we don't do that with the title pastor, >> right? >> But you could make the same they could make the same argument like Jesus is the chief pastor. Jesus established the church. Therefore, nobody else should be a pastor. Nobody else should be a shepherd. But obviously we don't subscribe to that line of thinking because we see the value in having pastors. We see the value in having local shepherds shepherd flocks of people and that they are imitating Paul as Paul is imitating Christ. And so I think that like that's what we need to hit the nail on the head on is like these gifts are to imitate Christ for the body of Christ. And you know, as you're talking, it it reminded me that it's usually just specific gifts that are offensive because again, like you said, you don't say that to pastors. You don't say that to teachers. I don't even think you say that to evangelists. No, you don't. >> People don't really get as offended like, "Oh, that's but it's a gift of the Holy Spirit according to scripture." So, I wonder why there's such a beef specifically with like prophecy and uh apostilhip or whatever the case may be. Speaking in tongues, that's the big one. That's the whole elephant in the room. And I'm just like, I mean, hey, it's in scripture. I'm I believe I don't I don't have that gift, but it's a thing in scripture. So, >> yeah, I think that's beautiful. I was going to say, um, did some research. You know, I'm a church history buff. And so, I was trying to figure out like when did cessationism even become a thing? And cessationism was a dogma that kind of got popularized in the 16th and 17th century following the Reformation. Luther's Reformation and it was a way that Luther and the other reformers kind of distanced themselves from the Catholic or at that time the universal church. Okay. >> Because the Catholic Church was a little bit too woo woo juju. >> Wow. >> For the reformers. And so what happened is the reformers swung the opposite extreme and cessationism was introduced. But people like John Calvin, Martin Luther, they championed this idea of cessationism. And I think some of that even when we were talking about like that's church hurt. That that's what it is. That's that's trauma from whatever they were experiencing in the Catholic Church. But I thought that that was interesting because I was like, dang, does it really go that deep that like >> we've created an entire schism in the body of Christ based on the poor representation of what the gifts were prior to the 16th century. But it was interesting to me something else that came up was like um that the reformers had kind of used as ammo against the Catholic Church was I guess that they said that their icons. You know what icons are, right? >> Icon class is that in that sense or >> uh icon? No, icons are like images of saints. >> Okay. >> So, there was a claim that the icons were bleeding. Like they were actually the Catholic Church was saying that the icons were bleeding and it was actually like cherry juice. Like they weren't really bleeding down here. >> I know. Very strange. So, of course, the reformers are like, "See, these people are woo woo juju. They're crazy. Like, we're not going to adopt or adapt any of their >> any of their ideologies." And I just think what's so important to remember and if you guys watched the Catholic versus Protestant episode is like Catholicism or Roman Catholicism as we know today was not the early church like the early apostolic church. Catholic just meant universal. It was one big church that was instituted by Jesus through Peter and continued on until I think Rome's reign and Constantine and all that. But like these gifts were being practiced in that church in Acts 2 at at Pentecost when the when the tongues of fire came above everybody's head. Like that was the universal church. And obviously there was perversion that crept in and different ideologies and people trying to make a buck off of people and selling people into heaven and icons bleeding. the saying that uh when a penny in the box spring when a penny
In the box, dings a soul from purgatory springs. Yeah, >> I've never heard that. >> Yeah, like you put the money in and you can pay your loved one out of hell or purgatory, and that was a whole thing. >> That's creepy. >> That's very creepy. >> It's woo woo juju. >> It's it's it's beyond that. It's woo juju with a dollar sign and >> with a dollar sign. Yes. Dang. >> Yeah. It gets demonic. And then when I was reading that, I thought about our transubstantiation debate, too, cuz I'm like, you know what? I can kind of see where the what the reformers were were thinking because some of the stuff did seem a little like creepy and and off and off. >> But yeah. Do you have any other thoughts about that? >> No, I think this was actually very enlightening. I didn't know that about the origin of cessationism. Yeah. I had no clue. And the what is it? The the icons bleeding. That's >> the icons bleeding. Yeah. And it wasn't it wasn't actually blood. It was juice. >> Man, >> so strange, huh? >> Very much so. >> But that's why we don't derive our values from man's misrepresentation of the scriptures. We derive our values from the from the word of God and what God has to say about his word. >> Amen. Amen to that. >> Well, that concludes our topic on cessationism and continuationism. Let us know in the comments, you guys, if this was enlightening, what you would have liked to hear more of. Let us know what side you kind of stand on or if it made you rethink any of your positions or views at all. >> Absolutely. And also let us know if you're interested in joining us for that friendly debate that we discussed. If you have a position contrary to our position on the once saved, always saved. We would like to host an episode where we have a friendly debate with two males since they always say males are never, you know, present. So >> yeah, >> reach out to us. We do have to still do our Bible. Yes, we're going to do our Bible nugget >> and we're going to try to get our Bible trivia in real quick if we have time. >> Okay. Do you want to do your Bible nugget first? >> Yes, sure. >> So, I have been studying Leviticus, and I'm now in Numbers, but I wanted to go back and read Leviticus. And I kid you not, Leviticus is one of my favorite books. For the past couple years, I've been really into it, but each time I read it now, it makes more sense. So, I never knew that the gospel I knew the gospel was everywhere throughout scripture. Sorry to the people that practice Judaism, but the gospel of Jesus Christ is from the first page to the end. >> But in Leviticus 14, I noticed that the cleansing ritual for lepers is explicitly the gospel. Check this out. It says, "Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest." Verse three, and the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him. And indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper, then the priest shall command to take for him who is to be cleansed, pay attention to this, two living and clean birds, okay? >> Cedarwood, scarlet, and hissip. Is it sounding familiar, Bible scholars? It says, "And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed >> in an earthen vessel." >> So, we got a bird being put in a earth suit. Come on. Come on. Y'all following me? Okay, so over running water, that sounded a little bit like living water to me. As for the living bird, he shall take it the cedarwood and the scarlet and the hissip and dip them in the and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed. So we have a bird that was killed in an earthen vessel. And that blood from the dead bird, I know it sounds gory, but just follow me. Is the now the blood used to cleanse the other bird. Okay, we are the other bird. The first bird that was killed is Jesus Christ. The one that was in the earthen vessel because he took on an earth suit. And then the things that are associated with this process. Scarlet who had a scarlet robe on before he went to the cross. My man Jesus Christ. You feel me? >> Yeah. >> John 19 verse 29 says that they took hyssop and um put vinegar on it and tried to give it to Jesus. And you also see that in this ritual. And then cedarwood. What was the cross? It was wood. So you see all the elements, you see all the components. You see the gospel in Leviticus 14. I.e. also besides the bird were also the lepers and the priests leaving his temple or whatever it is to seek out the leper because the leper was ostracized in order to do this cleansing ritual to acclimate him back into society is what Jesus did for us. So I am so sorry to those that don't see it, but the gospel is in Leviticus 14. >> Amen. Leviticus. Oh, that was good. Thank you. That that encouraged me. >> Yes. >> Yeah. The cedar, the scarlet, the blood. >> It's all there. It never fails to surprise me how many different typologies we have for Christ in the Old Testament. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Jeremiah 29:7. So, this is a letter to the exiles when Israel is in Babylon and there are a lot of false prophets essentially telling them that their exile is going to be short, shorter than the I think eight decades that their that their exile is supposed to be. And so he says to them, Jeremiah says to them, "This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon. Build houses and settle down. Plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters. Find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there. Do not decrease. Also seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it because if it prospers, you too will prosper." That's 29:4-7. I always come back to this verse when I am considering the state of our current world because I think that it's very easy for people to just get super discouraged and kind of say the world's going to hell in a hand basket. Jesus cracked the sky. Come get us. We're ready to go. But Jeremiah kind of tells the difference. >> That's fine on me. >> That's what my phrases, girl. Okay, go ahead. I'm fine. >> It's a lot of people's phrases because a lot of people feel that way and I feel that way too sometimes. But Jeremiah tells a very different story to the exiles. He says, "Actually, no. I want you to settle down and I want you to get married and I want you to start businesses and I want you to pray for the prosperity of your city because if the city prospers, so too will you." And so I think that we have a lot of apathetic Christians right now who don't want to pray for the nation, who don't want to pray for our governmental leaders, who don't want to pray for the prosperity of the state that we live in. And I think that that is completely um counterproductive to the life that Jesus has called us to. I think Jesus has actually called us to war for the place that we live in, to pray that the kingdom of heaven would come to earth as it is in heaven. Let it be so on earth. And I think that he wants us to put our hands to the plow, create businesses and have families. Like, do you know how crazy of an impact Christian families have on the world, Christian children, like having kids and teaching them the ways of Jesus and then sending them out like little arrows into the world, increasing in number versus decreasing in number. And so, I think that the world has the very secular message is like, hey, climate change, the world's ending, everything's horrible. Don't trust anyone. Don't have kids. It's a very antihuman rhetoric. And who sounds like that? >> You are convicting me. >> Satan sounds like that because he hates us. He hates humanity. He does not like be fruitful and multiply. He doesn't like seeing Christians duplicate themselves through discipleship. So, it doesn't even have to be this physical reproductive thing, but something as simple as you getting involved in your local church and discipling girls that are younger than you or discipling men that are younger than you. Like, you have a specific strategy emphasis on the men. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get back in the church. Get back in the church. It's time to wake up. >> We don't have time. Eternity is in the balance. But all that to say, like that is a very demonic perspective. And so I want the believers in the body of Christ to rise up and to begin to duplicate themselves again. That there would be discipleship far beyond anything that we've ever seen. That there would be mass revival because people have actually decided to put their hands to the plow again. That they've decided to increase, that they've begun to start businesses, that they've begun to believe for more and not just let the enemy and the state of our world disappoint them because Satan is after your fruit. >> And he knows if he can discourage you, you're not going to produce anything. >> Right? And I can attest to that being >> a very relevant message because as I was praying this morning, or was it last night, I I felt God reminding me of my one of my favorite Bible verses, Matthew 28:20. And lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. And I was thinking like God being with us is his his assurance of faithfulness. Yeah. It's his assurance of goodness and kindness. So it doesn't say I'm I'm with you up until this point in history and then y'all figure it out. But I'm always with you and my character is still the same, which is in line with this message today. God doesn't change. So if he was the same God that provided and restored and blessed and helped in the Bible, then he's still that same God today. So we don't have to live in that place of fear. So that was really really encouraging cuz I'd be like y'all, when that sky cracking, I'm over it. Y'all can do what y'all want to do here. I just make sure all my family safe, make sure all my friends safe, make sure my mailman safe and let's go. Like what else? >> It's easy to feel that way. I feel that way a lot of the time. But if we're alive and we're still here and we still have breath in our lungs is for a reason. >> Right? That's so good. That's a perfect perspective. >> Yeah, that was my Bible thought, y'all. >> We have time for a little Bible trivia. Do time. >> All right. So, let's do our because we missed it last time. All right. So, I'm going to ask you questions. You're going to be in the hot seat today. Well, we can both answer them since the answer doesn't show. Okay. So, >> let me use my Bible. >> I'm going just click on them so that way we can >> You better give me the verses. >> Okay. Can these ads not disrespect me? All right. So, here we go. This is the thousand dollar question. >> Why are we doing this? Okay. What were the Nethinim children >> out of? What path? Give me the path. >> It doesn't even tell us. We just have to figure. Okay. The giants in the earth. >> Okay. >> Assistants to the priests. Small household idols. Another name for the Kushites. I don't think giants in the earth. >> It's not giants. So that's Nephilim. Assistants to the priests. >> Assistants where the >> You're reading Leviticus. Yeah. Did you see any Nethinim? >> No, I didn't see any. They're small household idols. I don't know about that. Another name for Kushites. I think process of elimination. I would say another name for Kushites. >> Kushites. Yeah, let's go. >> It It was the idols, huh? >> Assistants to priests. Ezra 8:20. >> Wait, what? >> Ah, I'm hurting right now. >> Assistants to priests. >> Ezra 8:20. >> What? >> Ezra 8:20 says, "They also brought 220 of the temple servants, a body that David and the officials had established to assist the Levites." Wait, is that the right answer? Because >> 20. >> Oh, it's different. >> Brought 220 of the temple servants, a body that David and the >> Okay, say Nethinim. I'mma flag that question. >> Yeah, >> cuz that wasn't cute. >> Cuz the verse doesn't actually say Nethinim. It says >> Yeah, I think it's New King James that says that. Okay, I'm not a KJV. >> Okay, so the Moabites called what group of people by the name of Emim? Okay, I'm think I'm gonna I don't even understand the question. The Moabites called I'm skipping this. Let me just move on to something that's actually okay. We're going to do a 800 question. As he fill in the blank. As he that bindeth the stone in a sling, so is he that giveth blank to a fool, honor to a fool, riches to a fool, wisdom to a fool, his hand to a fool. As he bindeth what? >> A stone in a sling. As he bindeth a stone in a sling, >> so is he that giveth blank to a fool. Proverbs 26:8. What are the options? >> Honor to a fool, riches to a fool, wisdom to a fool, his hand to a fool. Honor to a fool, >> I would say. So that was that makes sense. Okay, that's that's correct. Okay, thank God. Okay, we can do one more for the sake of time. Let's do this one. So it says, "Some hearers in the some hearers in what city were described as more noble than those in Thessalonica?" Oh, this one's easy. In that they received the word with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures. I don't even think you need answer choices. I believe in you. You can hear me. >> No, I need the choices. Give me multiple choices. >> Philippi, Berea, Athens, Derby. >> Oh, is it uh Berea? >> Yes, the Bereans. >> The Bereans. Yeah, the Bereans. >> Okay. Right on the money. Yeah, we used to have a B 1710 through 11. >> Lovely. We used to have a Berean Christian bookstore >> in my city. In my city. >> I love that. I love that. That was good. All right. Well, thank you for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed this in-person episode. Like we said earlier, we hope to do more of this more often in the future. So, please stay tuned for that. Bye, guys. Thanks for watching. >> Bye.