Transcription
[music] Michael >> Raz, how was your travel? >> It's good. Back from Thailand. It was busy. >> Yeah, good to be back. And we have a special guest today. >> Special guest. We're going to try to introduce her to the best of our abilities. >> I know you can do that. Go. >> Elena Luke Yanenko. >> You got it. >> It's not bad. It's not bad. We And I'll just admit to everybody, we've been practicing it because it's a tough one. You are working at Cisco Thousand Eyes, right? And you're kind of from the space around networking security and things like that. So, it'll be interesting to talk about that. But you're also background is not any of that stuff. That's the other thing we think is kind of interesting.
>> But yeah, we you also have your what do you call your Substack, Graceful Edge, which I've been reading that and I think it was that there's always a reason why I've called somebody just to be clear and just to kind of set the stage. >> It was either a post you did or a Graceful Edge link that I read. It was the post that went really viral. >> Yes. To everybody and I think that's how I discovered you which is when LinkedIn algorithm works which lately it doesn't at all. >> Is everybody seen two week old content in their LinkedIn like I am? It's ridiculous. >> Even one month. >> Yeah. It's crazy. It's driving me nuts. So I was discovered you through LinkedIn and I I remember you were at Microsoft as well which I knew that and you kind of hit on the trope that you know we've talked to my brother recently. We talked to Paul from it. Like the world of employment for people, you know, that I think of past their 30s and doing things have had long careers. It's just changed a lot for how long roles last and how we find new roles and just also thinking a lot about what else do you do with your life and what do you assign value to. It really hit home with me because I was like, man, this is my struggle [laughter] sometimes. But it's probably to the popularity of your post, you must have got a lot of comments and people that where you've resounded with a lot of people I'm guessing on that same. So we're going to get into that as well because I think that's super interesting. So welcome to the generalist. >> Well, thank you for having me, R.
>> Yeah, sure. We're going to jump into AI, >> of course. >> And yeah, it's part of our life, part of our DNA. It's not something it's not a buzz word anymore. We use it every single day. And I want to get your perspective like which AI products do you use on daily basis? What change your life? What sticks to you how you can you know leverage your capability by using you know different tools. >> Yeah I like it how you say that AI is already part of our life because I think for us more tech forward people it is but for a lot of people it is not and there is still a lot of fear around this tool. As for me, I'm an early adopter. I've been with AI since my Microsoft days, since early days, since it was machine learning first, cognitive AI, predictive AI, and then only got into generative AI and it is hard to think of any tool that I use that doesn't have AI as a part of it. But I think the one that is my biggest collaborator of course Chad GPT although I do use CLA as well and I experiment with Gemini, but Chad GPT is the one that I started as an early adopter. just knows too much about me.
>> And I I really feel I train it well. I have a plus version. So I'm a paid subscriber and I use it really as my collaborator sales assistant not only in my work but funny use cases like recently I changed my hair the color and and the cut and what I did there is a video you can do the video with GPT where I I took hey like I want to change my style make it freshen up look younger you know more cool more edgy so I took a video and then recommend sent to me the hairstyles and the color and then this is I sent him the photo of my clothes what I usually wear like what do you think about my clothing style and compared with my branding like how I I'm perceived by other people so actually gave me a very cool style that is called corporate rebel which is something you know like you wear official but there is some element to it that is out of system like if you take a look at my shoes you'll see the tubby tubby issues. So that's the element that a bit different. So things like this or as of recent I discovered the audio chats in in GPT when I'm too lazy to type I just turn on the audio and we have a conversation and it can be anything with my therapist right then situations at work of course recently I had a lot of job related job hunting type of activities I was interviewing in multiple companies helping me learn the areas that I don't know like for example networking I had no idea about network and the area that I was always shying away even being in cloud AI for many years. Then going deeper into data analytics all that was done with chat GPT and of course other tools like you ask me only one but the second one is perplexity they kind of go hand in hand they are on my front page on my mobile phone they're on my desktop and these are the main tools with whom I'm spending time. Do you have any concerns? Because using sometimes can create bias. Yeah. Because we rely on them.
>> Yes. >> And then how it's going to reflect the reality. >> Look, I don't blindly trust AI tools. This is just a bouncing board. But I still use my real intelligence to analyze or if it's fact-checking. If you do the business research or any type of research, you do the fact-checking. And there are still a lot of hallucination that these AI tools have like totally random. I was choosing a perfume also as a part of my rebranding and like hey, this is the perfumes that I have and I have a very big collection based on this give me 10 others that I might like and describe it to me what kind of scent it is what kind of image that creates and he gave me good names but I knew those perfumes and the scent that he described if something for example in reality smells like magnolia gave me like smells like cherry I'm like that's not cherry come on [laughter] I know that one so like you cannot blindly trust them. But it's a good kind of like sounding board for me. Also, I'm a generalist and that's why I think I'm on this podcast and I have too many ideas. So, sometimes I just need to do that brain dump. I'll just turn on the audio and just speak like look, I'm going to tell you a lot of different things now. Please analyze this, put them in the buckets and the topics. Maybe put in the list of priority and some action items and I'll just keep talking for the next 20, 30 minutes. So that poor thing will process all the mess that I throw into this and that really helps me to bring more clarity to myself and be more clear as I speak, communicate with others.
>> Yeah, I had a situation yesterday. I have three daughters. My middle one, she's eight and she said, "Daddy, I want that Chachi PT will be my best friend. How can I do that?" How would you respond? >> Wow. [laughter] My my son is still doesn't know what AI is and he's six. He is all on Netflix. But that's that's a good question. I would actually ask if it if it was my son that who asked me like what kind of feature like what what are you looking at Chad GPT that you don't see among your friends or in your surrounding? Because until today maybe it's a sweet time but mama and papa are the best friends of his. It's not even his hopefully. >> No, he he says you're my best friend. So he he actively communicates this. >> He's still at that perfect age. >> Yes. He's a he's a sweet boy. So I would be very surprised about that question. But it's really when people want to replace a real human connection with robotic, you want to understand what is lacking, right? Because they do it for the reason. And probably there's something that they don't feel heard. I would assume so. Or someone doesn't have time to listen them out or they they have so much ideas going on they have this chaos in in the head which sometimes I have that they need clarity but again why wouldn't that be your parent if someone is older your human friend but I I can see this happening with our children unfortunately.
>> Yeah, I don't think it's going away. >> Yeah. And like I think a while ago when the movie Her came out right, we all thinking like, well, that guy is weird though. But that that's that's normal today. I think a lot of >> us that's us. It's no hair. [laughter] >> That's us becoming >> it's not going to go away. >> Before we jump into a range of things, you're in Singapore, which you're not from Singapore. So, how did you get here and kind of what has that journey been like to come from Ukraine to Singapore? >> Well, it was not from Ukraine to Singapore. >> Not directly, but >> not directly. Yes. Altogether I've been in Asia for over 18 years already. In Singapore this is my 12th year and I call this home. Singapore is my home now. Prior to Singapore I was in China. So that was kind of my jump from from Europe into China first. I spent six years there. Loved it. That's where I've been hired into Microsoft. >> In China. >> In China. Yes. [clears throat] And once I landed in Microsoft, which is a global company, I understood that the world is open for me. I can go live anywhere. And I loved living in Shanghai and China. But unfortunately, the air situation, the pollution got so bad that I was just scared for my health.
>> I was like, well, it's we need to get out of here. >> And I was considering different places. It was still right after the economic crisis of 2008. So the Europe was not so doing not so well. So I was considering Asia and it was Tokyo, Sydney or Singapore. I really love Tokyo. I love Japan. But culturally I think I would not be able to live there for a long time because it's too restrictive for me and I like to break the rules. [laughter] >> Rebellion. We still have rebellion. No. >> Yeah. A little bit like a little bit of rebellion. So I don't think Tokyo would be a good one. So I abandoned that idea. So it was then between Sydney and Singapore and I was looking for the job within Microsoft to to get relocation. That's the easiest part and Singapore came first and that's how I ended up here. >> Yeah. And you call it home. Is it is it >> kind of your forever place in Asia? Do you imagine you >> Well, nothing is forever. Nothing is forever for now. Look, I'm in Singapore PR. Hopefully, I'll become a citizen one day once I get accepted. But [clears throat] for now, this is the best place to live. As I think about my career, about my family, my child, it's safe. It's convenient. I like the climate. A lot of people complain they cannot live in this hot and humid climate. For me, it's good. For me, it's opposite. You know, if it's cold, I I cannot stand that. And it's easy to access anywhere. >> Yeah, it's a great spot. >> Yeah. Well, welcome. It's good to be here. >> I agree with the weather, by the way. I love the weather. So we already have something in common.
>> Yeah. >> I saw your background then you did variety of roles with also different disciplines meaning you had to change. >> Yes. >> And then come to the place of we spoke about it but now I want to double click on it is specialist versus generalist. >> Yes. >> How do you see yourself and how you maybe shift between these two categories? >> Yeah. So look, I am a generalist, but the generalist not in a way of a scattered. It's more of the high level high level of view and being able to see the patterns and transfer the skills and build on top of the skills that you acquired before. If you look at my career, I'm in tech, right? But I don't have tech degree. I have a master in finance. After university, even during university, I was working in the security as a security agent in Alal airlines. That was good money that paid during my night night time. I was working for night shifts in airlines and during the daytime I was studying in university. Then I went to work as I would call it business development but really it was an entrepreneurial job with one of the frequent flyers on Lal airlines who called me to create this retail space for outlet of Victoria Secret and Ralph Lauran in Ukraine. I'm like well I have this stock in my warehouse what can you do with it? So I had an idea. I wrote it to him like come come on board do that for me. So we opened couple of retail stores in Kiev, created a white label brand. So the whole thing hired salespeople, trained them and that was my kind like underwear empire as I call [laughter] it lingery empire. Unfortunately that person cheated me on money did not pay me what he promised me. So I left and I had a small break at that time when Malaysian government reached out to me and I was terrified to be honest because Israel Malaysia you know I'm here working for Israeli security and then Malaysia embassy calls me for the interview like something is not right but I went anyway like what do I have to lose and that ended up being a legit job I got a contract with Malaysian trade organization as their representative in Eastern Europe to promote Malaysian timber.
>> I had no idea. I was >> say you're not a timber person. >> I'm like not a timber person. I learned everything on the way. By the way, Malaysian timber is the best. If you didn't know, like those redwood, hardwood tables and furniture, it's very expensive and very durable. So, I got on a job. My first trip is to Malaysia once I start the contract for on boarding activity. It was 3 weeks trip. And during the trip, I learned a lot about Malaysia. It's a real job, you know. I thought maybe it was some sort of trafficking which you don't want to end up. But it was a real job. Great people that open eyes for me for this region for Malaysia and Azan. And I think on the third day there, I met this gentleman who is now my husband. >> That's been a long story, right? And but after back went back to Ukraine worked worked till the end of my contract and then we decided with this gentleman that it's time for us to move in somewhere because it was long-distance relationship and we thought well, let's go together in a neutral territory China [laughter] >> very neutral >> very like distance-wise like he will take a flight I'll take a flight he opened the business I came on a tourist visa and said I'll I'll find a job give me one month I'll get the job in Shanghai.
>> [laughter] >> like you know when you're 20some you don't really you don't have any boundaries I I kind of do it no worries and I did it so in one month I I landed a job as as a marketing manager at that time in a consultancy firm and that's how my Asia story started I had to do marketing which again I had no not much idea about this but I thought I'll figure out I know how to use Facebook I know how to use Twitter and I I definitely can communicate later on. I remember I spent four years in this company PTL group. I remember the day that probably a year after I started working, the CEO said when he found out how old I was at that time. Like if I knew how old were you, I would never hire you. [laughter] >> And surprise surprise. Well, that was like young age. At that age, I really had to pretend to be older than I was for people to take me seriously. But I think age also worked to my advantage because I could really get hold on all the tech tech tools and that was the age when digital marketing was spinning up email marketing automation CRM funnels like no one was really doing this and I wanted to do it but I didn't have any tech resources to do it. So I learned myself I went on forums and I was like okay which tools you using? No budget right? So it was all open source.
>> U how do you create the website? I was I remember I was doing a website on Jumla myself getting some PHP codes changed my husband was helping people on the forum from Africa were helping to change some PHP code and that's how slowly I got into tech and few years down the line Microsoft came in they needed support to set up their social social care ecosystem on all digital channels like Facebook Twitter senovo at that time vhat so it was across all Asia, nine languages, 15 markets. How many markets we have here? 15, 16. And they were looking for someone who has that experience with digital. And that's how I got into Microsoft. For me, it was the idea, well, I'm going to get in because as a marketeer, I want to be now a part of the vendor who does the tools that marketeers use because the tools were not perfect, right? I had to stitch everything myself. So that's how my Microsoft story started and after that I again I worked in China for one and a half year and I decided well I need to get out of here. So I was looking for the new role. I landed a role similar context because I had a pivot to from social media kind of like the social media engagement with consumers to enterprise social. There's a product called Yammer that was acquisition by Microsoft that created that social network for enterprises. So I came in to help build the APAC customer success team >> around Yammer. >> Yeah. Around Yammer. At that time customer success was an unknown animal. I still remember giving out the business card to the customers or partners like what exactly you do customer success like do you help me to be successful? Like is it customer support? is a technical account support they saw the support >> but because it was success it was sticky right and suddenly everyone wants to be successful and everyone wants to talk to you.
>> And that's how I got into all this cloud space because with the customer success you need to drive adoption and retention and upsell and as yammer evolved into office 365 I was working closely with the sales teams from Microsoft who were at that time hardcore for perpetual license EA type of sellers that every three year they will come wait for the order if they or they will go and do the SAM meaning auditing the customers if there is any fake software and they will find them and that's how they're going to get >> they call them the the farmers >> oh yeah there there is a there is a saying in Malaysia if you don't know there is durian king have you heard about this >> no >> so durian king and we're kind of getting off tangent but it's a funny one so durian usually the way you you collect durian, they have to fall down from the tree. That's the ripe one. So durian king is the one who sitting under the tree and waiting for durian to come. [snorts] So that's a local context to the >> waiting for that order to come in. >> Yeah. So going back to where I was working together with the salespeople from Microsoft and helping them sell the solution by identifying use cases, working with customers to especially sea level to coach them about the modern workplace. That was a new thing at that time. All this collaboration, breaking the silos, enabling the frontline workers to communicate with executives. And all the sales people I was working with, they were getting all these deals. They were getting crazy commissions. And I was on a regular like bonus plan, you know, by far less money than all the guys and girls were receiving. And I was like, that's not fair.
>> How do I get that? >> I did the whole job. They get commission. There is only a few that ever bought me drinks for that like I want to be that salesperson and that became a goal. How do I transition into sales and earn a lot of money because at that time it was all about money. >> Yeah. >> How did you do that? Like because the transition it's not easy. >> So it's not easy at all especially in the corporates the the objections that came in were like well you never carry the bag. how can we be sure that you'll be able to deal with the stress with attention and all those things like well I can carry the bag because technically I did it good thing in companies like Microsoft you could have a big network of mentors sponsors so I just got bunch of mentors they they saw the talent in me and they put me on the shadowing I was shadowing the best sellers I was participating in all the sales training my manager was also supportive of this extra uh assignments and extra time that I spent mastering sales sales discipline and I remember for two years I was trying to get the sales roles and I was rejected constantly you know sales role comes in like I'll sell anything just give me give me the chance give me the chance no no no.
>> And an interesting thing came when the whole this office 365 team has been made redundant globally and so here I am in Singapore for unemployment pass and it was right before Chinese New Year in February. I don't have a job. I have one month to either find a job or I'll be sent back to Ukraine which I haven't lived by that time in Ukraine for eight years. So I have nothing there. I have no apartment, no bank account, nothing. I officially moved out and it's the Chinese New Year which means most of the companies are closed anyways. So that was that high stress time while all my colleagues globally they were complaining that it's not fair you know like all this victimizing like I don't have time for this I have to go find a job and I went really active on my network and I discovered at that time that I really underestimated my network that there were so many people that were ready to help by referrals connections mentoring preparing for the interviews really so grateful to all the people who helped out not only in Singapore because at that time I'm like well maybe I don't want to stay in Singapore maybe I want to go to New York that was my kind like my dream and what do you think I in one month I landed three offers in Singapore and that dream offer in New York with Microsoft.
>> Impressive. >> And I spent one week crying during the Chinese New Year because I couldn't make decision whether I go to New York >> as to which one to choose. Yes, it was New York Office 365 specialist under amazing manager, great team there. And I'm like, wow, this is this is the dream, right? everyone wants to go to New York and and and be there or it was the sales leader role in Singapore but the sales leader role for whole Asia for Azure and it's at that time it was still a kind of scale up startupish mode in Microsoft the product >> what year was it >> it was 2016 >> good timing >> it's still the product you know like it was not as good as AWS a lot lot of bugs. We were competing really hard. So a lot of risk here. But at the end again my mentors recommended make it based on your lifestyle choice like career it will be always there. So at the end it went down to lifestyle. I thought if I go to New York I'll probably 30 30 like early 30s. If I go to New York probably my family will get delayed my family project. I was not married at that time and that's not really what I want. Like I wanted to have a family. I wanted to have kids. If I stay in Singapore, yes, it's limiting me only to Asia probably. But here is all this Azure which seems to be a cool thing that everyone is talking about, right? That was the investment from Microsoft big time high visibility also big risk because the previous person was not very successful. That's why they were looking for someone else. And I took the the bet on Azure. Actually, the it was my manager who took a bet on me because if you think about it, it was my first sales role, but it was a sales leadership role. It's not just the cell, it's a sales leadership role driving transformation within Microsoft, driving transformation within ecosystem, with customers, with a product that is chasing up to the competition with multiple initiatives, gazillion of stakeholders. And I asked my manager at that time, team, why me? I don't think I can do that. I don't know stuff. I don't even know what that Azure is. And how do you expect me to teach the seasoned salespeople to sell this, right? I I don't have any credibility. And he said, "Look, I can see in you what you cannot see. You can totally do it."
>> And he was really that rock behind me. He had to get into some fights with some stakeholders who did not believe in me like he did and I hope that he never regretted it. But in that case he explained that the key capability we're looking for is that ability to communicate clearly on different levels from executive to down to the seller or the partner practitioner to be able to communicate at different levels and to be able to influence without authority because influencing within Microsoft you work there you know that's that's a different sport. Even in sales you probably spend 90% selling internally and then only 10% with the customer. I think when people think say that customers are difficult doing internally with Microsoft fighting for >> surviving is more difficult. >> Yeah. Surviving getting the right deal the right timing right support from teams from all the resources. So it's much more challenging and that's how my sales career started. It was not easy but it was a great ramp up probably one year for five. I I I didn't sleep at night because I had to learn the technology to be more or less credible and know what what I'm talking about. That's been amazing. And that that's how the cloud came in that it was data workloads. Then cognitive AI came in and from there it just rocket rocketed into space.
>> This reinvention is the way I think about it and it's something you talk about as well in your stuff. Like how do you do this as a process? Is it just you see another thing and you go for it? Cuz I think even you mentioned something that I think was kind of important where you talk about when cuz a lot of people are getting laid off, right? Like Microsoft just what it's 15,000 this year. It's an insane number, right? And there's the victim card that can be played cuz I've been there where it's like >> this wasn't my fault. This is you whatever happened happened and you got to get past that a little bit. Then you got to get on that horse and go find a job, right? But you know, how do you explain that and what advice do you give to people that are in that situation? Because there's a lot of them even in Singapore, right? That and some of them are under that same thing like they got 3 months and they're >> they got to give up even living here. Yes. >> But the victim card won't really help even though you'd feel terrible. >> How do you see past that? And what's what is this advice you'd give people on this reinvention of I got to go do another thing which I think is what generalism >> Yeah. Speaks to, but I'm curious how you think about it and maybe share with others what might help.
>> Yeah. So, for me, look, that was my first layoff in Microsoft. Second time, redundancy just happened in April when I left Broadcom. And the key here is not to wait until you are laid off. Let's assume you will be. It's the matter of time. And the question is here, how do you prepare yourself ahead of time? I think earlier maybe 10 years ago it was not as common. Now we see in tech industry that happens every week. >> So you need to be thinking about yourself. Okay, today I'm working for this company but let's assume tomorrow I don't like what what will I be able to do? If I need to earn money what skills I can leverage. So building continue building those transferable skills building your personal brand that's super important and personal brand is different from your professional brand if you are working let's say in Microsoft for this context as a data data and AI salesperson that's your professional brand but who are you outside of that because what happens and that's what hits people really hard I think when they lose their job they lose their identity Now you don't have the title. You go to the any networking event, any drinks, the question usually ask like oh where are you from? What do you do? I'm like I don't know what I'm do like I don't know who am I. So it's important to have those questions answered for yourself who you are outside of your work. And it's okay to say look I I really I'm just a housewife. I I don't really want to work. That's fine. Right. [clears throat] And it's fine to say that I'm I'm a career I'm a careerdriven person. I just want to be famous, rich, and powerful. That's why I'm going to go and and do anything it takes to to get there. It's fine. Like different people have different goals. But victim card, I think, is the worst strategy because it doesn't really help in the moment. It doesn't help the situation. It spirals you down in all the other areas of life because suddenly you feel pity for yourself. You feel that something was not done fair for you that impacts relationship that some people get into depression. They don't even want to talk to other people. So I would say the first thing positive although it's very difficult.
>> Yeah. >> Think positive. It's very difficult but at least like shift like yes you can grief you can cry for 3 days but give yourself time don't don't spend like one month for me maybe I cried I don't remember this time if I cried or not maybe I did but it was like a moment that like okay I just need to get it out of my system so I can move on and and go ahead with my productive self. >> So give some time to grief but limit it. That's first and then map out the plan. What's your plan? And if your plan is just to rest, put that rest time. Okay, for the next month, I'm going to be resting and I'm going to be doing nothing and I I'll be reading books and then what comes next? What do you want to do? You want to start your own business? You want to look for another job? Start doing it. But ideally, you do all that before you even get laid off. It's a continuous cycle. Like they they joke, you you get the new job, you update your CV and have it ready, right? In a way it's a joke but it's a reality.
>> It's a new paradigm that I don't think any of us are used to right where >> I mean before you would oh maybe Microsoft or Google has some annual thing which even precoid wasn't that often and I think >> some bubble burst after co where you know somebody's announcing every six month. >> So I feel like it's something we all have to accept as a >> reality in the industry. Look, it's it's never it's never personal. Although it does seem in a moment that it feels absolutely it feels. And once you kind of put you come out from yourself as an observer and you observe the situation and you analyze it like, hey, it's really not about me being a bad performer or a bad person or that your manager being a bad person. Not to say bad words on the podcast, >> but it's just the way it is. and like do I want to sit here and be be a victim or do I want to be an author of my life and go build the bright future. Usually from my experience what I I tell to people look in every single situation where we thought it was critical. It was not favorable. It was like a universe guiding us on a new path. So like when the door closes another one will open. And if this happened to you right now, that means this chapter is closed and you better move on. Like for me, I know exactly like the situation in Broadcom. I knew this this going to happen. I was prepared for two years ago when Broadcom acquisition happened. It just it was dragging, but I knew it just a matter of the quarter because everyone kind of living on the quarter. So I was well prepared. I had a good network. Everything was going well. But I I knew my intuition was telling me you're done here. This is this chapter is closing. You either leave yourself get the courage and step out because it's so comfortable, right? Like why would I step out of the comfort zone? I'll I'll stay for another month, another quarter, >> another year. Or if you don't understand, I'll just close that door forcefully. So you also need to kind of evaluate where you are in life and if you're working in the company or in the job that doesn't bring you joy that maybe it's more of a liability, you're not thriving, then it's it's for better for you to move on.
>> Yeah. Make a decision. >> Yeah. I I I want to jump on to there is a topic that I always debating about why it's so different. why big companies choose for senior go to market based on gender which is tough to say but I don't see enough women's out there and I know it like back home my wife she's also in in very senior position but she always alone there's only men over there in sales and go to market >> why do you think companies choose from you know from that perspective to hold on and say it's not the right time for us. >> Look, there are different perspective. One is historically if we talk about sales, sales leaders, sales reps, it's a numberdriven game. It's go go go. It's all in numbers. You get the deal. Doesn't matter how you get it in this quarter. And this type of behavior naturally that's a male energy. Let's put not the male but a male energy. So it's overachiever. You go, you achieve, you see the target, you kill the elephant, you bring your dinner to the table. So that's the male energy. The female energy is more nourishing, creating relationship, caring, building new things, expanding. And all of us men and and women, we have both energies, male and female. It just which one dominates? Ideally, you know, they are in balance, but they never are. So, one or another dominates. And then when we look about sales, you kind of think, well, which salesperson will be more successful? The one that is nourishing and soft. And in some cases, they are. If it's a farming type of sale where you need to do renewals, maybe that relationship based more nourishing would be more suitable. And it doesn't mean that a woman would be nourishing woman. I know so many women sometimes I am like so assertive and sometimes aggressive that I scare myself. But there are days when I'm like I'm just like let's be friendly. Let's let's let's drive it as a as a team as a family. So different behavior. So I think one thing is like what it used to be like go get the numbers versus female energy. is like let's create ecosystems and partnerships but the business is changing and now we see even competitors they go into competition and the guy let's say John who is very assertive and aggressive that used to compete it would be difficult for John to create that cooperation with the competitor who he probably hates the gods of and that's where women become you can see a lot of women in strategic partnerships and business development how you bring that next wave of the business however, you know, I don't want to generalize there I see I know a lot of women leaders great sales leaders great sales reps tough some are tough some are on opposite very softspoken but they get deals because the customers love them they feel that they really can trust this person again like there's as many people there are different customers and they would prefer different things but if if you talk about the workspace right in technical industry. Of course, as you get senior, you need to understand that whole framework. Being a general is how the whole business comes together. And if we talk about technical solutions, it's not just one SAS, right? It's multiple networking, data, collaboration, infrastructure. You kind of need to get that grip. And not every woman would want to get into this type of techy stuff. Some find it very unattractive and they would rather go into fashion industry or I don't know cooking. I don't want to generalize. For men it's more natural to go into this engineer and use the left brain and it's understandable for them. Another thing that for some women if we go about seniority as it comes with the edge age they have kids they re-evaluate their life and it's like look I don't really need to be the next CEO and spend all my life on the flight I want to spend time with kids what is the job that would be good for me there was a case for me when I moved from that sales leadership role that was talking about Azure to business development ment role because I wanted to have a child and my doctor said with the pace of life that you're having now that you're flying 75% of your time there's no way you can conceive or have a successful pregnancy. So I had to slow down and kind of ground myself more in Singapore with occasional trips around Asia just to drive my stress level, my cortisol level down, my progesterone up. So it was kind of a move, career move that was connected to my life goals.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think it's tough to I'm sure sometimes in the way corporates are created or there's even not even a lot of thinking to even what you describe this whole dynamic of at what stages of life is somebody in a better situation to handle this versus that because sometimes they're just quickfire decisions. But it's just I think as an industry the you know hopefully it can keep doing better in elevating women executives and I think in Asia we just don't see enough of them right >> but look it's not only on the companies women have to play their part as well it's not a victim mindset as well. So like I I don't support those movements like well like men get all the jobs and women don't get anything. Men do their part to get those jobs. It's not like they land on them. They do networking. They do they follow up on relationships. They know how to get sponsors whether it's drinking in a bar or remembering the names of the kids and sending them toys every weekend. I don't know like there was a the interview I was listening was it with John Mckennon that he said that when he was a sales reps he he would he he was the most persistent. He would wake up at 5:00 in the morning, drive to the car park of his client, be there at 6:00 and wait for the VP of engineering to pull the car in because that was the only time when he could talk to him. Could it be 15 seconds, 30 seconds? Sometimes when his secretary is not there, he will buy him a drink. Would woman do that? Well, some women probably would. But if a woman has children at home that you need to make breakfast, get them ready for school, most likely she won't be there at 6, right?
>> Yeah. And it's a it's a fair point and I think I think we've had some people on the podcast that talk about like Wendy talked about this and others that her suggestion to women was stop being around the women so much and get in there with the men and explain to them how you need to be seen and what you need to do to elevate yourself that you have to push through that >> if you want to do that. >> Maybe some people don't. >> You [clears throat] don't have to. I totally agree with you. Yeah. >> Yeah. and and the men are very receptive. I think that the me too movement created a bit of a distance and I know a lot of men they're they're very cautious with their female colleagues because of that. And once you come in and say look guys like we are the [clears throat] same group we can we can have drinks together. That's fine. I'm fine. I want I want to work together with you. This is my goals. Can you help me? They're very forthcoming. There's so many ally.
>> But I think that's even a technique that either I don't know if someone's taught it to you or you figured it out, but even what you just described is a technique, right, of placing yourself there, explaining yourself like and and I I my assumption is even people aren't taught that >> yes, >> as part of their learning in a career that you you somehow maybe stumble upon it or you figured it out. But to me, even that little snippet is like you figured out how to set the table for what you're trying to do, why you're there, what and I think some women, you know, even myself would would not be good at being that forthright and candid about it. And that in and of itself to me is a strong technique, right? So yeah, it's fun. So Graceful Edge, explain a little bit about it. I've been reading it and I think it's something you started doing and and you're kind of probably scratching an itch to write and and share about >> you know what's happened in your life and teach people through it. So kind of give us a background on that and how's that going and what's the motivation for that. >> I think the last thing it's about teaching others. It's more about teaching myself mainly to write. There is an interesting story behind this. I hate writing. I actually not that I hate writing. I have a I had a traumatic experience in my childhood around writing. I was brought up in Ukraine. At that time it was still USSR when I was growing up and my parents are strict. The school is strict and I was a top student. That was the requirement from my parents. I couldn't get anything lower than a minus in in current terms, right? And essays that something did not come easy to me. So there would be essays that I would write and my parents will take a look. No, that's not correct. They'll tear the page out. You write over again, write a new one. There was one specific one around Munhausen story. The Baron Manhousen, it's like the imaginary one, right? Like we had the topic that we needed to write our own Mhousen story.
>> I don't remember exactly what I was writing there, but I remember that I wrote five drafts and my parents were just tearing down like this is rubbish. I was crying. I spent like it was already past my sleeping time. I was crying. And then it was my mom who's like, "Okay, I'll write it for you." So, she wrote something. I don't remember even what. I gave that as a homework. I got a good grades. Everyone is happy. I'm like, "Okay, done." But that time like, "Okay, I better be very careful about writing. I need to fit into the norms." Whatever were like my parents norm. I knew what my parents liked when I write. So
I started fitting in notes and then, like, you know, it just did not spark any creativity. And through, through all my career, once I started writing in English, once I learned English as a foreign language, that was easier for me than writing in my own language, in Russian and Ukrainian, because my, my parents did not understand English. So no one could check my homework. No [laughter] one could check my homework. I could write whatever I want.
But still, writing somehow, I just do not enjoy doing, like writing reports, writing long emails, all those transformational memos. And that's where I love ChatGPT because I can just dictate to it, look, like that's what I want to say, that's the message, that's how I want to influence, give it to me, give me the draft, I'll edit, add my style. And that's what happens. Just recently, right? It was, I started graceful age in May, I think it was April, after I was made redundant. I was walking in Bukit Timah with my friend and she's a Bazi specialist. Bazi, it's a Chinese kind of like numerology assessment thing, like Feng Shui. So they can take your date of birth, your time, your location, and similar to Western astrology, there is this Chinese way to analyze your, how do you call it? Banzi? Bad Bazi. Badzi. I don't know if I pronounce it right. I will find it. So Bazi, it's an interesting profiling. So she is the expert in Feng Shui and Bazi. Like, "Hey, let me take a look what is for the next 20 years?" Because I, I'm entering, I'm 40, in early 40s, for the next 20 years, what is that activity that will bring you the most joy and money? I'm like, "Yeah, perfect. Like, I just love the job. Just tell me what it is and I'll go do that. What you tell me."
And then she calls me back and like, "Hey, it's actually writing." And I'm like, "No, that's like the last thing." Like, I could like, I could assume anything, you know, like even programming, coding, like I'll take it. I'll learn it. Writing, like, no, no, like I will not do writing. Like that's one thing I'll do. Well, like, it's your choice. Now you know this. That's what that's what Bazi tells. That will bring you joy and money and connection and influence. You may choose not to do it and you still will live, but maybe differently. And that really stuck in me. Like, "But what do I write about? I don't know." Like, "I'll write a blog, a paper, a book, or like, I don't have anything to write and I don't like it." She's like, "Why don't you just send a signal to the universe to help you identify what that would be?" I'm like, "Okay, fine."
So, I send that signal to the universe. And the same week, it was Saturday, I attend a Lean In breakfast, Lean In Women in Tech breakfast. And it was also about visibility and branding women at work. I don't remember specifically the topic, but there was one table that spoke about visibility and someone mentioned Substack. I'm like, "I know all the tools. I used to be in digital marketing, right? Like, what is this Substack?" So I go back home. It was 12:00, we finished 1:00. I'm at home on the desk. I search for Substack. I understand what it is. Writing the articles, then like, "Oh, I actually saw some other people writing newsletters on Substack. I'll write a newsletter." And I work with ChatGPT. We brainstorm with ChatGPT what could be the topics based on my interest, based on my experience, the different names, the concepts. So from 1:00 in the afternoon until 11 p.m., I did not get up from my seat. I probably just bought some food. I issued my first manifesto. So like, I did the site, the logo, the name, the template. The first manifesto was out. And then I went to sleep because for me it was like, if I don't do it now, if I delay the next day, I will not do it.
And get done because the energy just came and like, you have to follow the energy. That's the key because if you don't follow it, it's already opportunity is gone. And that's how it started. And I sent to my friend like, "You look, you are the first one." And it was the message that I sent her at 12. She was already sleeping. Like, "Look, this is the thing. This is my first article. You're the first one to see it, but I'm, I'm taking this as a writing project." That's the beginning of the writing project. And so that was the story about the graceful age. You probably wonder why the graceful age. I thought about it's the edge, right? So what everything I do, whether it's technology or leadership or spiritual learnings, it's always kind of on the edge of things. It's on the edge of what people think is normal. I hate being regarded as normal. And it's also the edge of disciplines, so it's intersection of disciplines of functions, if you call it industries. So that was the edge. But like, okay, like I need some feminine touch to it because.
>> I was going to say, given the [laughter]
>> So like, what kind of edge it could be? It can be a raw edge where like there is raw take and [clears throat] that's what we were discussing with ChatGPT and they were like, graceful. I like the word graceful. I like that's cool. So it's going to be the graceful edge.
>> Love it.
>> Yeah.
>> Nice.
>> Stick with it. Stick with it. It's it's been fun to read it and I think it's hitting some home with some people kind of thinking about.
>> Their lives design and career design.
>> The interesting thing that it was created for women. Yeah.
>> But the more resonance, or at least the feedback I get more from men. And that's now like, I'm a bit confused because my description in the newsletter says it's created for women.
>> 40 plus, but all the action I get from men.
>> And but I think as a man, like, I always tell people, like, you know, we have daughters and we think like, where do we learn the things to help us be better in our interactions with women in business? You know what I'm saying? Like, it, because you go through these phases of, you know, Me Too, moving, like you said, it pushes everybody back, which maybe wasn't a great thing, but it's also brought some more focus to it. And then, and then you're sometimes just trying to educate yourself as a man to like, how do I get better? How do I not be one of the blockers? How do I not hold people back? You know, what are my biases? So when I read stuff like this, it's to kind of give me an insider's view.
>> From an education perspective.
>> Yeah, but it's also not just that. I also noticed that that gave an opportunity for men to self-reflect and really become vulnerable. And I got more empathy towards men because we as women, we think we have all these issues with with men at work, you know, being passed through promotions and and challenges, but men have it too. They just don't speak about it. They don't speak about it in public, or maybe they don't speak about it with women because they don't want to look weaker. Maybe you guys speak with each other. I don't know. But men were writing in private messages.
>> We hug it out and.
>> Yeah. And like, "Hey, like I, I did not.
>> We have trees.
>> Yeah. Like I did not share this with anyone, but actually that's what I'm going through." I'm like, "Well, thank you for sharing. And this is not necessarily men that I ever met in in life. It could be someone who followed me on LinkedIn.
>> And suddenly they feel like opening up.
>> So that creates more empathy that it's not just women. Everyone is going through this transition. It's not easy.
>> And you have to talk about it. And if it's ChatGPT, be it, but you cannot keep it to yourself because that just eats you from inside.
>> Yeah, I think it's good for raising awareness. And I think that's what I get out of it. We got to wrap. We're.
>> I have another one, one last thing and and a view on.
>> We like to see things as products. And you said, "I created for women," but then men use it.
>> Yeah. And for me is saying, when you're creating something, you not always understand your product market fit. What you need to do is to create the same as you did. The outcome can be very surprising.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's what people like. So what is the graceful age? Like, look, at this moment, I'm just creating discipline and writing and creating clarity for myself on my leadership style because I was going through this self-discovery of who I am without titles. And in the future, it can be anything. Now, you know, I have this opportunity to speak at this podcast. Maybe there is after this podcast comes out, there is a new opportunity. And then, you know, it creates a chain reaction. But you need to make that first step. And clarity never comes before you start. It comes in the process.
>> Yeah.
>> You have to have the platform to even experiment, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's been great. You want to kick off?
>> Yeah. Go.
>> What do you tell your old 20 years, your 20-year-old self that you know right now?
>> Yeah. I think when I was, what I would say is, don't look for act before you have all the answers because I was very careful before. Like, I needed to have answers and guarantees. And learn to ask proper questions because the power of questions, it's, I think it's the most powerful tool these days, whether you're in sales, personal branding, in podcasting, it's how do you ask the right question at the right time? And then the whole thing flows. So asking questions is something that I was working on. I went through the coaching certification just to learn to ask right questions to others and to myself.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. It, I think you're the second person that Allan mentioned this is like, "I wish I knew when I was younger how to ask.
>> Questions.
>> And that one really hit me because I'm like, yeah, that's like, it's a superpower.
>> And it unlocks so many variables, right? So what, what do you do to stay healthy, whether it be spiritual, mental, physical, that kind of keeps you grounded?
>> Yeah. So a lot of things. I'm I'm a big health freak, biohacker in the past. Now I more call [snorts] myself like longevity, vitality expert, not ready to inject all kind of weird experimental substances than me. I take more easy approach. But in terms of physical, I'm a, I'm a dancer. So I picked up dancing one and a half year ago, Latin dancing. That was again, something to distress me from the transition with Broadcom. It was super stressful to continue performing the triple digit growth, keep the team motivated, and also deal with all the ambiguity around the business and the future of careers of of my own and my team. So I started dancing and that was my kind of avenue to distress, to be a better dancer. I also do gym, so strength training, but it's a part of the longevity protocol to keep those muscles healthy. I don't meditate in in a traditional way. I tried so many times, different approaches, trackers, devices that record your brain waves. My meditation is the tea ceremony. So I'm a master of Chinese tea ceremonies and that's what I have every day. Ideally in the morning, sometimes in the afternoon, I, I put the the proper trays called chaban.
>> You learned this in Shanghai? Is that where you.
>> No, no, I didn't learn it in Shanghai, unfortunately. Yeah, it would be great to learn from those tea masters. I learned it only only recently through online education. I have the most exquisite tea wear. They're expensive, like like the new way of luxury. You know, you buy a Dior bag or you buy the teapot from from artisan artist in in China. So I have all those like very special pieces that bring me a lot of joy. So it's aesthetic beauty and then the teas also, I source quite premium teas and different teas evoke different emotions, different feeling in the body. I come from Italy now from the holiday. I've been drinking a lot of caffeine, so I need to stop it so I can feel the tea better. Somehow they don't work together well. And I just have 15 to 20 minutes pause, only with me, tea, feel how the tea gets into my body, so center around myself. And that's my meditation. So I call it active meditation.
>> Love it. Any book that you read?
>> So, uh, there's a lot of books. I'm I'm the person as a generalist, I read several books at the same time and not all books I finish, but one.
>> This has [clears throat] been a thread with every generalist that I just never realized.
>> Yeah, that's a bunch of people. It's like I have a bunch of books. I don't get through them all. I'm okay with it. I pick them up, I send them down.
>> Yeah.
>> It's it's a it's a meme. I think.
>> I get really excited about a new book and then once I start reading it, like either the style is not right, either like I, I understand early on like what is it all about and it's loses its context. But the book that really keeps me going and it's a big fat book, 777 pages, that's a magic number. It's called a book. Obsai book.
>> Have you heard about it?
>> Book.
>> It's apparently it's a cult book in a way. So this book doesn't have an author.
>> Fiction. Fiction.
>> It is. It is in a way fiction with the elements of psychology. You have to look it up. I got targeted on Instagram. And this is the most expensive book I've ever bought. It was €9 on discount.
>> Wow.
>> So I think original price is €149. It's a very beautifully done book, hardcover, silver sides, the pages, the pages are treated from that the book will not burn in fire. So it's a very beautiful book, thick, heavy. 77, it's a magic number in the book. So the story line is, it's basically about three parts of our mind, reason, emotion, and instinct. And there is 12 different stories how they show different personalities from this three variations. I highly recommend this book. I'm almost almost done. It's a, it's a long read and you can read only one chapter. Like, basically, if you finish the chapter on this day, you cannot start another one. You have to sleep before you start another. So there there's a special instructions how to read it. And how I, I got interested in this book after I saw the ad, it was Jovoovic that said, "This is the book that changed my life." I'm like, "Well, if this is the book that changed Jovoovic's life, I want to read this.
>> I want to check it out.
>> And it's it's really different from from anything else you read. If you do a self-help kind of those self-reflection books, it's different.
>> So for everybody listening, we will get it in the show notes so people can find it. Thanks, Alina. This is great. So much fun conversation. We appreciate all your candidness and good luck with the Substack and the new role.
>> Thank you.
>> [music]