Transcription
And welcome back to another episode of Barely Age Faith. Today we're going to be talking about a recent interview with Ruslan and another mega church pastor talking about, well, they kind of talk about funny hats and costumes that maybe the Orthodox Church or Catholicism has. And I kind of want to interact with some of the comments by the mega church pastor because I think it's an important conversation today. You know, even Protestants are becoming aware that mega church Protestantism is a problem. Like the way it interacts with the world, how it thinks. In many ways, mega church, mega church even juggle-ism flattened everything. I mean, I grew up in it. It flattens the way that you look at the world in order to save as many people as possible. But within that, there become, you know, grow, there grows many issues. So, we're going to talk about it today.
Here is the clip that I want to share with you, and it specifically the clip is talking about Orthodoxy. And so I wanted to share this clip with you and interact with it.
>> And so that's what I tried to do.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's good. You referenced a lot about the ancient church and the early church, right? And there's a massive conversation happening online. I'm sure you've caught wind of it with regards to what is the one true church and this sort of stuff. Now, you, you have the Greek Orthodox beard.
>> [laughter]
>> You get, you get past.
>> Uh, it is a nice beard.
>> He's the guy with the Duck Dynasty beard right now.
>> So,
>> I'm more in the Phil Robertson camp.
>> Give me your framework as someone as a non-denominational Christian,
>> Mhm.
>> and your, yet, desire and heart to glean from the early church and the
>> FYI, most non-denominational churches are Baptist Protestant. Um, maybe that's just not aware of it, but the non-denominational mega church just grew out of the Baptist movement, maybe a splash of Pentecostalism. I grew up in it. My, my parents were sort of on the cutting edge in the late '80s, early '90s in starting and adopting kind of the mega church model for the church. That's why I grew up listening to Saddleback Church and Willow Creek and all of the mega churches that were sort of the, the initial sort of runway for all the mega churches we have now today. Um, let's continue listening.
>> church fathers, right? Uh, and, and how do you reconcile that? Because there'll be people that look and say, "Do you guys meet in a building that's a Walmart and you're wearing jeans, and you guys aren't a true church?" What would your response to all of that be as someone that's on the front lines and seeing God move?
>> Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, I would be a huge fan of Luther and the Reformation, cuz they weren't trying to start a new thing. They were trying to take it back to the original thing.
>> Mhm.
>> And it
>> There's a difference between trying something and actually succeeding in doing that. And so, yeah. Was that the mindset of Luther that he wasn't leaving the Catholic Orthodox Church? Yes. Uh, and that he was simply reforming it. That was totally his idea. Was he successful in it? No. He did have some real critiques of Roman Catholicism. Some of them were similar to the Orthodox Church and their critiques, but he went, you know, way too far and set about a revolution where even during his day, he was in shock about what was happening around him. Like, immediately that, you know, Christianity was fragmenting all around him, and he's saying, "Don't, don't listen to these guys. Listen to me." Um, because the Anabaptists and Zwingli and Calvin, they're all, they're all saying quite, you know, they're saying different things from each other. And so, he sets this revolution, and no, it doesn't look like the early church. Um, we can go look at the early church. We can look at the fathers, and it looks like Orthodoxy. Uh, it doesn't look like what was, you know, set off by the Protestant Church. So, that's, that's where there's obviously going to be a disagreement here, but, um, I don't think Luther was successful.
>> Just comes down to a question of authority.
>> Mhm.
>> Tell me more.
>> And our authority is the revealed word of God. That's it. That's it. It's not what a group of people in funny hats and made like, "Who came up with the hats? Where did the hats?"
>> All right, we'll talk about the funny hats, but the idea that the Bible can interpret itself is already on very shaky ground. Christ gave us apostles. He gave us leadership. He gave us a living church and a way of life. And of course, the scriptures, the written, the written tradition of the apostles has a primary place in the Orthodox Church, but as St. Basil will say, the early church father, the unwritten, you know, tradition, the unwritten transmission has equal authority and equal weight. So, for example, how we worship. We actually have instructions on how to worship. Uh, and we could go down the list, um, but for us to get rid of those things would actually, as St. Basil says, injure the gospel itself because it keeps everything together. I mean, just like you need a, you know, in our nation of America, we don't just have a constitution, we have a Supreme Court and we have other, you know, authorities in place for the for the nation to actually function. And I think that's one of the stronger claims is that we're actually saying you need bishops, you need councils, you need a court, you know, a court of bishops to be leading the church, and within this, there are protections built in by the Holy Spirit. Um, and so that's, that's what's missing. We don't just have, you know, the scriptures as this one operative, functioning authority, but rather there is like this organic relationship between everything that God has given us.
>> [snorts]
>> That's the hats aren't in the Bible, you know? And if you want to make costumes to distinguish people, that's fine in your tradition, but you got to call it what it is. And
>> So, he's calling it out what it is. I guess he thinks of it as just kids playing dress-up is essentially what he thinks of when he sees Orthodox clergy wearing vestments. Um, for him, it's just dress-up. You know, I think this is an important conversation. It's funny because I used to have his perspective. Uh, so I don't want to be too hard on the pastor here because I had the same perspective. I remember in college, I had a friend who was Methodist, and he was a big advocate of like, you know, pastors wearing vestments or some kind of dress that distinguished them as, you know, being the pastor. I was like, you know, when I'm a pastor, and I was just getting started with church planting and studying to be a minister, I was like, I'm going to wear a t-shirt, like a black t-shirt and jeans. Which is, you know, that's what he's wearing. For me, um, I wanted to be as close to the people as possible, not seeing any kind of distinguishing, you know, um, marks, no distinctions there. And so, I understand like where he's coming from, like to look like the people, to be close to the people. But, what's missing and what I missed was that actually what the vestments are showing is a type of symbolism. So,
>> [clears throat]
>> the closest example that I can give is when a bride is going down the aisle to be married, she is wearing all white, and she's wearing a white veil. And I actually think it would be, you know, something that would be a bad move to get rid of that symbolic imagery in a wedding. Yeah, could she come down in a black dress? Uh, sure. Um, but black normally means a type of mourning, a type of sorrow and grief and death. White means chastity, virginity. The veil, of course, is representing humility. Um, and, uh, and this is to be taken, take place in a church rather than some kind of, you know, getaway vacation beach island. Why? Because what's happening in the ceremony actually means something. It's not just dress-up. It's not just some lady dressing up to look like a princess. Rather, she is symbolically the bride, right? And this points to the book of Ephesians by St. Paul, right? Christ and the church. What, sorry, the husband and the bride represent Christ and his church. So, there's symbolic imagery, sacramental imagery all going on in a wedding. Of course, in the Orthodox Church, we have the crowning ceremony where they each wear a crown. So, for us, this isn't just dress-up. This is actually communicating symbolically realities that are taking place. We believe that we're actually caught up, you know, in worship. We're caught up and taken to the nativity of, of, we're taken to the resurrection of Christ, and these events that have actually happened. Um, and so, it's just so much more than costume dress-up. One last point I would like to bring up, too, is, you know, this kind of symbolic imagery and having beautiful garments begins in the Old Testament. And it talks about it in the book of Exodus that, um, that Aaron, that we are to make holy garments for Aaron. It talks about, you know, head covering and crown. It talks about gold plates. It talks about all these things that the high priest wears. From the Orthodox perspective, the priesthood that Christ institutes, right? The priesthood of Melchizedek, the one that's eternal. It's not the one that ends in Aaron, the Levitical priesthood, but lasts forever. He institutes, and the bishop is actually taking the place of a high priest. So, Christ is the high priest, but the bishop is a kind of high priest. And St. Ignatius of Antioch talks about this, and many of the early church fathers talk about this, but it's also in the scriptures themselves. When you look about when Christ was instituting Peter and the apostles as leaders of the church, it's priestly language that's associated with the temple and synagogue. Well, when there's other aspects of when an apostle was appointed in Acts chapter 1, it's priestly language. When the apostles and bishops and priests are associated with the altar and the sacrificial offering of the Eucharist, it's priestly language. So, they fulfill, bishop, presbyter, priest, and deacon fulfill the threefold office of the Old Testament of high priest, priest, and Levitical minister. And so, the symbolic imagery that a bishop is wearing, you know, shows that he is an icon of Christ. He is a high priest figure, and everything he's wearing points to Christ.
Now, I want to play a little clip from my friends at Patristix because they just do such a great job with. We'll get back to the video, but they do such a great job with talking about this. Um, on one of their most recent videos. This happened like two days ago. They released their video on vestments, and I thought it was really good. This is the end, but I want to play it for you because I think it's really helpful for us to kind of get into this like mindset of why a bishop or a priest would wear this. It's not about pride. And that's often times the thinking from the kind of Protestant Evangelical mindset. Oh, this priest or bishop views himself as better than all of us. He's filled with pride. He's got loose, you know, the pride of Lucifer, which caused him to fall. It's, it's, but in reality, it's such the opposite mindset. Rather, he is hidden behind these symbols so that we actually don't see him. What we see is Christ. It's an icon. Let's go ahead and play this clip for you.
>> vestments on behalf of us. The vestments of the Orthodox Church are a visual display to us of something [music] that is very real and very deep and something that we often forget. As beautiful as these vestments [music] are to the eye, they call us to something higher. The transfiguration offered to us [music] by Jesus Christ himself. To be vested in beautiful garments isn't a calling just for priests or bishops.
>> [music]
>> It's to all of us. We are all called to be royalty, a royal priesthood. All of us are called to grow closer to Christ in the kingdom of heaven. The beauty we see in churches is meant to call our attention to the beauty of our own soul when it is clothed in Christ. This episode was
>> So, again, definitely subscribe to Patristix. I'm sure most of you that listen to this channel listen to Patristix, but if you don't, definitely subscribe. I was able to meet him one time. Uh, really great guy, great channel, two brothers that run the channel, and they just give out really wonderful Orthodox content that again emphasizes beauty first, where you actually can see the beauty of Orthodoxy and the the meaning behind the symbols and the rich, you know, theological meaning behind everything we we say and do. So, it's a great channel. Definitely check it out. But, that's what the, that's what the silly costumes and hats are actually all about. Is they point to the glory of Christ. And so, the bishop, as St. Ignatius of Antioch says, is the icon of Christ. He represents Christ gathered with the apostles around him. Um, and so, he's a, he's a high priest figure pointing always to Christ and is hidden in Christ. Let's go ahead and continue listening to the conversation, then we'll do some Q&A.
>> And even today, man, when like when the Pope says things that are against the Bible, then you ask that person, "So, who breaks the tie?" "Who breaks the tie?" And so, I'm not saying we're perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But,
>> I mean, obviously, uh Orthodoxy, we would have a critique of Roman Catholicism and some of the things that are taught there. Um, but when he's saying, uh, this, he's going to propose this idea, like, what do you do to break the tie? Um, it's always going to go back to God's word. It's like, "Well, from the Orthodox perspective, everything we say, teach, practice, none of it's against the scriptures." But, but our, you know, the earliest church fathers, uh, they knew the apostles themselves. And so, it really comes down to, do you trust the interpretation of the church fathers, or do you trust the interpretation of someone who comes 1,500 years later, 1,600, 1,700? You know, do you choose, you know, John Calvin and Martin Luther over what we see as the witness of the fathers in the early church? That's what the debate is. It's not that we think that we're saying anything that's against scripture.
>> We are trying to just this is our final authority. And if if there's somewhere I'm wrong is is cuz the spirit God or my elders haven't pointed it out yet. But we are under its authority. We do not stand in authority over it. And that's the fundamental difference.
>> [clears throat]
>> Yeah.
>> And
>> Um, even Roman Catholicism doesn't say that they're in authority over the Bible and like tell the Bible what to what it says. That's not, that's not the understanding. Um, but rather that apostolic transmission, both written and unwritten, are in harmony. And that we trust the earliest interpretations because they knew the writers of scripture. They knew the apostles. And so, there is a greater um, reliability to that when it comes to how we look at the history.
>> And then we're also, if you'll notice, man, uh, worship and worship services and styles, it's very specific in the Old Testament.
>> [clears throat]
>> Because it was to one people and one people group as a light to the nations. But then in the New Testament, it's for all peoples of all ages until Jesus returns.
>> Yeah, and evangelical megachurches take this to the extreme on what they are allowed to do in worship. This is why you see big productions on Easter that are a bit wild. You see all kinds of stuff going on. And and so because the way that Protestants, Protestant evangelicals, cuz Anglicans won't go there, Lutherans don't really go there, they think that there are generally are, there is a pattern to worship. But evangelicals, yeah, they think they can just kind of blow up the rules today, that the patterns of worship, and then that's them being as, you know, as close as possible to those outside the church. And that's, I mean, when I grew up, we got rid of the cross from our sanctuary so that we can make, you know, outsiders feel more comfortable, as if they're like at a mall or they're at a coffee shop. And so we tried to strip everything of its symbolic meaning and sacramental meaning to make everyone feel as comfortable as possible. That's the method. Unfortunately, they've lost the deep beauty and truth and goodness that the apostles and their forebears gave us in worship. So, when the, when we look at the earliest worship services, and by the way, they're going out to all the world. They go all the way to India. They go all the way to Spain and down into Ethiopia. Yeah, are there a little bit of some differences? Sure. We're not opposed to there being diversity in worship or there being some different, you know, liturgical customs, if you will. Even Orthodoxy today, we have some different liturgical customs going on. If you look at the Russians or the Greeks or various, you know, groups. But there are bones to that worship. Like uncompromising structure to it. A good book, couple good books that I'll, I'll recommend. One,
>> [clears throat]
>> is the, uh, one is Orthodox Worship. This is by Ancient Faith, and it's a living continuity with the synagogue, the temple, and the early church. This is a good example to show that when the apostles were instituting the worship that Christ gave them, the risen Christ, they, um, were leading and instituting a, uh, a liturgy that began in the temple itself. So, they weren't rejecting the model of worship that we have in the temple. It's actually the same, but fulfilled in Christ, transformed in Christ. And so, the rites that we find in the New Testament, the New Covenant, fulfill that which came in the Old Covenant, the Old Testament. And so, there isn't this big, like, you know, law versus grace, Old Testament versus New Testament, but rather there is fulfillment. Yeah, for those who are watching, this is live, so definitely throw in your questions and we can throw, you can throw them in the chat. I'll answer them. I am live right now. Um, but this is a good book. Another great book, and this is this is brand new, The Divine Services of the Orthodox Church. There's some very rich, um, uh, very rich stuff in the very beginning of this book. It talks about the structure of an Orthodox temple. It talks about, uh, the vestments of a priest, altar, and liturgical items, like, what are they? What do they mean? Um, it talks about the bishop as, um, high priest. It talks about, uh, the church as the temple. So, it's a very rich read. I would definitely encourage you to make a purchase, um, and it really helps people see the layers that are going on here. Um, so, that's key. But, I just wanted to kind of comment on when he talks about authority, it's because we believe Christ also instituted a church with bishops and a threefold office and that there's a living continuity, living tradition from the get-go that the Orthodox Church has held onto and has been lost by the mega evangelical world.
>> So, there are general principles for sure, but there's not style of music or style of dress. There's not. There's modesty.
>> Mhm.
>> Is true, but what does that look like in Kenya?
>> Mhm.
>> In Latin America versus Jacksonville?
>> Mhm.
>> It's these things are
>> I mean, actually, like when you look at the ancient liturgy of Ethiopia, it looks pretty Orthodox. Um, but again, there are its own customs and rituals, but this goes back to the very beginnings of the apostolic age. I mean, the Ethiopian that was baptized by, um, by Philip the deacon, he goes and starts Christianity in Ethiopia, and it's like the one of the first nations, like Ethiopia and Armenia, they're like the first nations that become Christian before the Roman Empire. So, we got a lot of amazing evidence of what Christianity looks like there. And so, yes, you can have a global, a global universal Christian faith that is also holding on to the essentials of apostolic worship. And that's what's missing in this conversation.
>> Very different, but it fundamentally just comes down to authority, and we're Bible people here.
>> Yeah.
>> Period.
>> Yeah. So,
>> I love you.
>> You have spiritual authority as the pastor of the church. Your elders have authority
>> over me.
>> over you. Um, but when it comes to the end of it, we're looking at what does the scripture say, and that's the final authority. It's not the only authority, it's the final authority.
>> Correct.
>> And so, we're filtering everything, church history, we're filtering what Augustine said, we're filtering what all the all this stuff through the scripture as the final authority, not scripture and tradition or scripture.
>> It's all the apostolic transmission. It's all the apostolic faith, and we don't view, again, what the unwritten tradition is as against the scriptures. They're quite harmonious. Um, they actually expand our ability to know what the apostles actually meant. So, when St. Paul is talking about it in the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 10, he talks about it being a participation in Christ's body and blood. Uh, when you look at the testimony of the earliest fathers, we know what St. Paul means even more so than some, you know, random take by a Baptist in the 16th or 17th or 21st century. So, um, the fathers help us avoid going into like heterodox, false understandings of what the apostles meant.
>> and church history.
>> Correct. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the Catholic Church, for instance, their their authority is a three-legged stool.
>> Mhm.
>> [clears throat]
>> It's scripture, it's church history, and it's papal authority. Yeah, we are saying God's word and God's word alone is authority.
>> Yeah.
>> Basically, me and my Bible. So, he has a church plant, a mega church, he has no denomination. So, it's just him. And, um, and so, that's actually what it comes down to. Uh, when he's when someone says, "Oh, it's just the Bible and it's final authority," that means it's just him and his church. He doesn't even have denominational creeds or accountability, which is a significant problem.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you know, um, I mean, the Pope, he, and I'm not trying to pick fights, but, you know, he sent out this tweet the other day that Mary is the mother of the church. Says who? Like, he just described a bunch of things that the Bible doesn't say. Now, in their tradition, he can say it. He can make up new stuff. And but when he says things that are out of line with the scriptures, that we're going to go with the scripture.
>> That's a good, that's a good test scenario there. Like, is calling Mary the mother of the church out of line with the thinking of the scriptures? The scriptures? Well, it's like, well, first of all, we already know that she's the mother of our Lord, and that title wasn't just saying she's just a mom. Like the way that it's, that she's described is that she's, you know, the mother of the King of Kings. Like she's the mother of God. Um, saying so, Elizabeth calls Mary the Theotokos, the mother of my Lord. So, you've already got the phrase right there. In Revelation chapter 12, we see royal imagery, queenly imagery associated with Mary, where she's seen in the sky in the stars, pregnant, she gives birth to Christ. So, she's given royal imagery. When, of course, you get into early centuries, it's formalized, she's given the title Theotokos. She is the bearer of God, the mother of God. And that means that Christ is God. That's what it means. And so, um, I know that there are many Protestants who would hope that he actually does embrace the phrase mother of God because it's rejecting, of course, the Nestorian heresy, which said that, you know, Mary was only the mother of the human nature or human person of Jesus, and not his divinity. Of course, we're not saying that she's the source of his divinity. We're not saying she's the mother of the Trinity. God forbid. No, she's the mother of the person Christ, who is God. And that's what Theotokos means. Now, the mother of the church just flows from that, from that title. For example, Eve, Eve is the matriarch of the human race, and she's given this title in Genesis. She's the mother of all the living, right? And so, you've got patriarchs and matriarchs in the Old Testament. When you come to the New Testament, Mary is like the matriarch of the new covenant people, right? The New Testament people, the church. She's the, she's like the matriarch of the church. And so, it's fine to call her, as the new Eve, the mother of all the living, the matriarch of the living, which I, you know, that would be the church. So, she's the mother of the church. So, it's a beautiful title. Um, um, it fulfills who she is as the reversal of Eve, where, as you know, where Eve said yes to Satan, she undoes that with her yes to the angel Gabriel, in her yes to God. So, when he says it's out of line with the thinking of the scriptures, it's like, that's, I mean, that might be his opinion, but I just demonstrated how someone could actually be in complete harmony with the scriptures and say something quite true about the Theotokos, the Mary, you know, mother of God.
>> Mhm.
>> Period. Yeah. Now, I do think we can learn from all kinds of people.
>> Yeah.
>> And we partner with a ton of our Catholic brothers and sisters here in things that we have in common. For instance, we have done a lot to fight for the right to life here with our Catholic
>> Awesome. Yeah, I think it's amazing to work closely with all of us, whether someone has the name of Orthodox or Catholic or Protestant. It is good to, like, you know, fight for the unborn. It's good to serve the poor. There's a number of different things we can do together. But, of course, when it comes to like, who the church is, how the church is to be, what Christ meant when he gave us the church, founded the church, obviously, we're going to have some things to say about that, which I think is important to not be
>> [sighs]
>> It's important to be honest about those things and not just, you know, jump into any kind of like, well, only mere Christianity matters. As long as we all declare Jesus, then nothing else matters. No, when you do that, you actually can miss out on a lot of what Jesus actually intended for worship, for the church, for missions, for the world.
>> My brothers and sisters, praise God. So, in areas where we find alignment, whether it's in doctrine or mission, man, let's stack hands and let's go.
>> Yeah, I have a lot of dear Catholic friends in my life, and that is something that I love locking arms with them on, on the unborn cause or on different causes, and I think there's overlap. I think what often happens is very exclusivist claims are made as if this is, you know, we're the one true church, and if you don't agree with our interpretation of scripture from our authority, which comes from our authority or we claim comes from scripture. Like it's like a circular thing either way you go, and then then you're out. And we go, "Hey, like, we still view you as brothers and sisters in the Lord." You know, if you've had an encounter with Jesus and you believe on him for your. We think you're in error.
>> Here's Here's the thing, though.
>> Yeah.
>> be a T of the Catholic Church, you do have to repent of in order to in order to follow Jesus, cuz they believe
>> Okay, I'm going to end it there. I mean, it's kind of a funny thing to say when he says you have to to be a member of. He's giving the instance of the Roman Catholic Church, you have to repent in order to be a Christian. It's like, that's kind of the hallmark of what it means to be a Christian. That's the opening kickoff of what Jesus says in the Gospel of Mark. Repent and believe the Gospel. And we are, of course, we're supposed to continue to repent. Now, he's going to jump into, oh yeah, but confession to a priest and all that, which is another topic for another day. I'm not going to jump into all that, cuz I want to get into some of the Q&A. But, but overall, um, I wanted to interact with this because there sadly, I think, uh, what much of what mega church Christianity has done is it's gotten rid of a lot of the symbolic imagery and sacramental meaning, even more than what happened in the Protestant Reformation. Like it was, it was beginning to happen there, but, you know, Anglicans and Lutherans, they still held on to a lot of things, even if they, you know, in our opinion, became distorted or there was a loss. But what's happening today is a complete, like, um, you know, destruction of the icon where you walk into a concert hall. Yeah, are they still holding on to some good things? Yes, that's, I'm not going to say that they they're not. But there is a lot that's that's missing more and more. And so, when they criticize us for funny hats and playing dress-up, it's like, well, let's help you understand what's happening. Like, how does the temple connect to Orthodox worship to the Apostolic Church? And so, hopefully, that was helpful for you today in today's episode. Let's get into some Q&A.
All right, we've got a comment. Thanks for the super chat. What's funny about clerical garments is that they have their origin in what was essentially professional judicial uniforms of the time, not so different from a pastor wearing a suit today. Yeah, so I mean, when you get into like the Orthodox vestments and things, you can connect it to like, you know, the Byzantine Roman Empire and what was popular there today. But, one of the things you got to recognize is that wherever Christianity goes, it sanctifies what is there. So, we can take imagery like a peacock and say, "This represents the resurrection." They can take, you know, maybe some of the vestments that you find in, of, you know, maybe religious leaders that are happening in vestments that they might wear there. And they Christianize it, they baptize it, and they place Christian symbols upon them. I mean, this happened in, you know, the Celtic lands, Celtic Christianity, where it didn't completely like eradicate any kind of beauty that you could find in the culture, but rather they, they baptize it and they make it Christian. However, the essential meaning of why a bishop or priest dresses the way that they do is ultimately, you know, has its origins in those pages of Exodus, you know, and what and how God instituted these garments. Where the beauty of these garments points to Him ultimately. There's been a lot of great research, too, on why that the priest did this. He is part of the living icon of the temple. So, Jews worshiped God, but they also saw their own temple as an icon. His presence is there, but the whole pattern and layout, you know, these earthly realities pointed to heavenly realities, including the furnishings of the temple, including the furnishings, the clothing of the priest. And so, they were all venerated and honored, and it pointed to Christ. So, even though you can point to sometimes like, "Oh, what about, you know, the origins of Christmas? Or what about the origins of this? Isn't that more pagan or isn't that more like political or government?" Well, there there can be that layer going on there, but ultimately, we're baptizing all cultures. And, uh, it's being used within this this icon of temple and the threefold office of bishop, presbyter, and deacon. And true worship is offered to God. I hope that helps. Uh, thanks for that comment. Going to be strolling here to see.
Okay, here's a great question. Thanks for asking. Love your content. I'm a Presbyterian currently discerning Orthodoxy. Praise be to God. Prayers for you. I noticed you were a Catholic before becoming Orthodox. What eventually convinced you to move your family from Catholicism to Holy Orthodoxy? This is a great question. Um, how much time you got? Uh, no, first of all, I should say this. Many of the good things that I picked up when I was a Roman Catholic for 13 years. One is there is much there that the Orthodox Church holds dear, right? Uh, for example, you know, loving. There's a lot of people that you find that do love the Church Fathers. Uh, there are many amazing Catholic scholars on the Church Fathers. Uh, you know, I went to amazing monasteries and I venerated relics of saints and all sorts of things that were beautiful and wonderful and true. However, um, as I was teaching high school theology, Catholic theology, and working for a Catholic parish. By the way, before I should say this, I almost became Orthodox before becoming Catholic. This is back in 2010 and 2011. Um, but at that time, Orthodoxy, like parishes were far away, my wife wasn't coming with me. I read a lot of ecumenical statements between the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church. And in my mind at the time, oh, we're about to get back together, so my decision doesn't actually really matter. Um, however, after teaching high school theology, Catholic theology, being in Catholic parish life, experiencing on many levels, I began to recognize that in many instances where it seemed like when you're studying the faith, I tended to find the Orthodox answers and practices to be in more continuity with the early church than many of the Roman Catholic practices or ways of thinking. You know, it's like, I could give you some examples, but when it came to sacramental practice, you know, communing infants, chrismating infants, and not having any error in your understanding of worship where you need to delay this, the sacraments of initiation, um, that to me is an error, and so you can see how the Orthodox have held onto that. Um, in the area of purgatory, um, today Roman Catholics hold to a view of purgatory that is now closer to what the Orthodox held to, but if you look at the Counter-Reformation, if you look for several centuries, their model of purgatory was much more one of torment, um, that was a kind of passive satisfaction that where you basically experience the vengeance of God until it's disarmed by experiencing the satisfaction. There were even Catholic theologians who thought the moment you enter purgatory, you're already pure, you're actually already pure, but you still have
>> [snorts]
>> so much temporal debt for already forgiven sins that you need to continue to experience the vengeance of God. This is in the Council of Trent, it's in the Catechism of Trent. I've got all sorts of resources on this. When you read St. Mark of Ephesus at Florence, the failed Council of Florence, his understanding of delay being delayed in Hades and praying for the dead is much more related to mercy and love and, um, you are, of course, for those who might be delayed in Hades, they are experiencing, um, more of an experience of like judgment in the sense of they're recognizing their own sins and where they fell short. And so, there's kind of an eating away at their conscience. There isn't like an external material fire penetrating the soul, and this is how Catholic theology talked about purgatory for, you know, 500 years.
>> [snorts]
>> Like all the major doctors of the Catholic Church. Now, today that's changed. If you read, you know, Joseph Ratzinger and you can list off all these different names today, they've come much closer to the Orthodox perspective. So, all this to be said, it seems like many of the reforms in the Orthodox, sorry, the Catholic Church today, the good reforms, is them trying to get back to Orthodoxy. At the same time, though, they're also introducing many bad reforms that Orthodoxy just never will go, go to do, you know, go down that road. Um, and they're going to have to undo those eventually later on. The Roman Catholic Church. And so, in the end, I felt that I, I didn't just feel, I recognized that the Orthodox Church is the original Catholic Church. All the, the original principles and sacraments they've held onto with great stability. So, many people would admit, um, that they recognize 100 years from now, you know, in the United States, 100 years from now, they recognize you're not actually going to be sure what Protestantism is going to look like. It could be all over the place. And it's the same way with Roman Catholicism. 100 years from now, you don't know what it's going to look like in the United States. With Orthodoxy, you generally can say, you know, not every little detail, but 100 years from now, you you're going to know what Orthodox Christianity looks like. And not only is there a great stability, there's a great beauty and great goodness. And I think it's the greatest thing you can give to your child is a living, active faith in Christ that's sustained by the Orthodox faith, the Orthodox Catholic Church that he's given. And so, that's, that's where I arrived. Now, of course, we can talk from topic to topic. Um, I've got some videos coming out. Um, videos that will be coming up through this channel, Barely Serious, but also, if you haven't subscribed yet, guys, to the, um, Orthodox Apologetics podcast of Ancient Faith. I'm live every Wednesday at 1:00. Definitely check that out. Uh, subscribe to that channel. And I'll, I actually already have topics prepared for that. Um, obviously, there's the whole topic of the papacy and all those, all those topics. And I've got a lot of material that I've shared on this channel, but also that's coming down the road. So, I hope that's helpful for you. Um, but in the end, ultimately, Orthodoxy's held onto the original thing. And that's, I think, also revealed just by paperwork for 2,000 years. There's continuity there.
Cassian, would you challenge Ruslan to a rap battle? I, I'd be the last person you want me to to do that. I don't think so, but that's really funny. Um, yeah. Uh, basically, Protestants, evangelical megachurch pastors, they have to prove that accretions entered and gradually desecrated the church. They assert this claim without evidential basis. Thank you for chiming in. Um, the Didache is very clear on early Christian beliefs and worship, but they hand-wave early disciples as Greek pagans. The Didache even even will talk about prophets as high priests. It's a reference to the prophets being teachers. And so the role of the bishop was very much one of being a prophet and being a teacher and being and being a high priest figure. So even one of the probably earliest documents connects the bishop with with high priest. Which is, uh, which is interesting. As we were making a point about that earlier when it came to why they dress as high priests. Okay, let's see if you've got some other comments going on here. Oh, yeah, Amber, great to have you on here. Always a pleasure to have you on. Uh, she writes, "That's a good point about the wedding gown." Yeah, I mean, it's funny when you point to other things in our, in our culture, like, are you going to make fun of a marine dressed a different way? Are you going to, you know, make fun of a, you know, a soldier at Buckingham Palace? Are you going to make fun of like a, you know, a bride on her wedding day? No, we know this has ceremonial significance. And when it gets into, you know, nationalism, people are a lot more patient and kind, and they understand these, you know, ritual gestures. Well, if you go into any kind of memorial or ceremony for fallen soldiers, it is loaded with Orthodox thinking. What we do for our martyrs in the Orthodox Church and what we do for Christ, you see on display, on full display in nations with nationalism to their fallen heroes, fallen soldiers. And it would be very weird to just have some kind of like everybody wearing a t-shirt and flip-flops to these ceremonies. Rather, you you dress up because we recognize there's a kind of solemnity. There is a hierarchy of ceremony. And we recognize this in other places, but for some reason, it's being lost in the sense of the church, which I think is a devastating loss for Christianity and what Christ intended. Um, okay. Any other questions you guys throwing in the chat? Oh, yeah, yeah. Thanks for commenting. I hope to actually, I would love to interview Dr. Zachary. I just have not sent the invite yet. He's like literally on my list who I want to invite and have on the show. So, he's somebody I look up to. And, uh, and, uh, I appreciate his work. I think one of his main points is before you can really help people see the Orthodox faith, you have to help them see and embrace a sacramental worldview. It's so key. It's something that even though he wasn't Orthodox, C.S. Lewis went through this. Um, and he's someone that eventually fully embraced a sacramental worldview. Of course, I wish he had become Orthodox before he died, but he very much could see a hierarchy of meaning, hierarchy of roles. He appreciated St. Dionysius and hierarchy of being and things like that. So, that's where you have to really help people see is that the universe is sacramental. It's God-soaked. It's filled with him in the Christian sense. Let's see here. I just saw another question. Oh, this is a great question. What are the best arguments for the "call no man father" misunderstanding? Yeah. So, there's a line by Christ, you know, "Call no man a father except for God the Father. Call no man a teacher." He sometimes gets translated as rabbi. Um, what's interesting is that we don't, we don't take that literally in that second half where he says, "Don't call anyone teacher." Right? We call people professors. We call people teachers all the time. But when we hear that phrase, "Don't call someone father," what is meant by that? Well, it doesn't mean don't call someone father literally who isn't your father. Like, let me give you an example. Jesus calls Abraham, "Father Abraham." Right? Your father Abraham. Is Jesus not taking his own advice when he says, "Call no man a father?" No. It's in what sense do we, do we, is Jesus talking about these things? St. Paul says, you know, basically, "Imitate me and follow me as a father," and he calls Timothy his child. Right? Um, uh, I think it's St. John who calls his disciples, those who are attending his churches, his children. So, this children-father language is in the scriptures. It's in the New Testament. And if Jesus was meaning this in an absolute, like literal sense, "Call no one father," then he broke his own rule by calling Abraham the father of the nation. And really considering, you know, when he's talking about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he's speaking of them as fathers of the nation, right? Patriarchs. He speaks of Adam as the father of the human race. So, if we speak accurately about our fathers, that's not a problem. He's talking about, I think, really prideful embellishment titles where someone, you're using it in a way that had, you know, it is distorted and embracing pride rather than humility. So, in the Orthodox Church, that was really strong language in the monasteries and in the caves and among, you know, the monastics, the desert fathers, you know, you had a spiritual father who guided you, you know, those who were living out in the desert. And you viewed him as an elder and as a father. So, it was really a term of endearment of someone who's who's
your spiritual guide. And so, we use that uh for our for our priests uh in our church communities because they are advising us, they are guiding us, and they're disciplining us as fathers. And I think this is so important today when we have a crisis of fatherhood. This is one of the strongest aspects of the Orthodox Church. Uh, we have a strong sense of fatherhood.
Um, now, some people may struggle right now because we have so many people, you know, bursting at, we're many parishes are bursting at the seams. And so, there is a challenge right now where, you know, the relationship with a spiritual father can be difficult because there's just so many people coming. Uh, and everyone has these needs. The ideal, though, is for, you know, uh, our our The ideal in the Orthodox world isn't parishes that are have a thousand people or two thousand people or five hundred people. You know, the ideal is to have a few hundred people, couple hundred people for a for a priest. That's even a lot, you know. Two hundred people for one priest with spiritual guidance is a lot. Um, but the I, you know, the idea is that you have one altar, one divine liturgy, one spiritual father, uh, and it and it remains, you know, an intimate setting. So, you're not just calling him father from a professional standpoint or something. No, this is like a term of endearment. He's he's your spiritual uh father.
Okay, lots of people chiming in. Uh, let's see here. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's kind of like when Jesus breaks his own rule calling someone a fool, context is important. Yeah, 'cuz the Bible says, "call no man a fool." Um, so, yeah, you always got to play pay close attention to when Jesus breaks the rules. Uh, uh, and and that's really how a lot of the scriptures are written. They make they make you dig deeper. So, Jesus will say something that makes you think. Like, he doesn't give direct answers a lot of times, right?
Um, how are we, you know, supposed to pay taxes? What about, you know, "how do I inherit eternal life?" And he goes and tells the rich man to go, like, sell everything. Okay, what does that mean? Does that mean everybody, the moment the first moment they want to be a Christian, they have to sell literally all their possessions? So, so he, Jesus makes us think. Our Lord makes us think and pray and ultimately seek and knock. You know, seek and knock, seek and knock. Uh, and so whenever it looks like Jesus is like being a hypocrite or breaking his own rules, oftentimes he's causing us to seek further. We're kind of like within one of his own uh parables.
Um, any other questions you have today? I'm trying to go through all the comments here to see what I've missed. Oh, thanks, Amber. Really enjoying the... Again, subscribe to the Orthodox Apologetics podcast on Ancient Faith. I'm there live every Wednesday at 1:00. It's a lot of fun. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Uh, I feel very humbled and honored to even be a part of that whole thing. So, thanks to Ancient Faith for allowing me to uh to be on there.
Oh, here's a question I missed: Any advice for someone looking into the Orthodox Church, but family is uneasy or flat-out disagrees doctrinally? Well, you know, this is just part of life, right? I mean, your parents are not going to agree with everything you you do as, you know, particularly when you might be parenting kids, right? Like, "Mom, Mom, Dad, like I don't parent the same way that you parented. We're doing, you know, XYZ differently."
Um, now, that could be for good or bad, depending on what it is, right? Uh, but if you believe it's for the, you know, for the best for your kids, then you're willing to put up with some tension in your relationships, right? Like, "Mom, Dad, we don't feed our kids that kind of cereal," or, "We don't, you know, use um, we don't use devices and phones that way." You know, you may have a completely different way of life than your parents, and there's going to be some real disagreements.
Now, when it comes to the faith, these things can get pretty intense, particularly if they might be devout. Like if they're devout Methodists, or devout Presbyterians, or a devout Evangelical, you know, one of the things that that has helped me is like, you know, think about this for a second: The reason why there is tension, there is heat, it's because they care. It's because they love you. And they have, um, and they and they passed this faith in some form on to you, even if you think that maybe there's some things that are missing. And so, there can be some definitely some friction and intensity about that. But, I would first say to you, recognize that as a good thing, first of all.
Oh, like they're not nonchalant, like they don't care at all. Is it better to care or to not care? Yeah, I think it is. It's, it's better to have a little bit of, uh, wild and and tension than it is for someone to be like, "Oh, I don't care. I don't care if you're, you know, Orthodox Christian. I don't care if you're a Buddhist. I don't care." You know, you can find people like that where they don't even care what you become. But, if they love you and they do have some sense of the faith, then there should be tension. There should be some heat. So, first of all, view that as a good thing, even if it's very difficult. It can be difficult depending on how you're treated. Some people, some parents might be very respectful. Other ones may struggle with respect. And that that can be an issue.
Um, so, so be a person of prayer. Pray for them. Be a person of prayer. Don't be an argumentative person. I, I generally think it's, you know, you have maybe your close friends that you can confide in about your journey looking at the Orthodox faith. Your parents may not be those people. And, and they may not even be people who you can really share, um, and process this with them. Some people it's possible, but others it's not. And you hope to really win them over by your transformation, like your transformed life, by your love, um, by by the way that you love other people in your own Orthodox church and community. So, if you, if you are on that path, yeah, it can be difficult. There's road bumps, there can be tension, but in the end, um, if you remain faithful to Christ and a person being a person of prayer who's committed to becoming holy and transformed, it's going to, it's going to work out. It's going to work out. It doesn't mean that they will become Orthodox, but it's going to, it's going to work out. And a lot of us have been on a journey like that. Um, and and we see and have experienced those very rocky, difficult times, and then they eventually down the road get better. Now, not for everybody, but, you know, being Christian means, of course, ultimately, "pick up our cross and follow follow me," is what what our Lord says. And so, we have to always be faithful first to him. And, uh, even though we want to honor our parents, and it's good to honor our parents, uh, we ultimately are passing the faith on to the next generation, right? So, that's the most important thing: is what is the faith that's going to sustain my kids and my grandkids and my great-grandkids? That is the most important question. Like, you know, uh, not, "Okay, my parents are getting upset," or, "People around me are upset." If you believe and you find the Orthodox, you know, faith to be the one that Christ gave us, and, uh, where he is presently giving his own life to us, uh, via prayer and, um, you know, baptism and the Eucharist and our own experience of him in worship, then, uh, it's the best gift you can give your kids in the next generation. So, I hope that's helpful.
Yeah. Someone says it's, it's uh, one person said it can be awkward talking it uh, talking to their family about it. For other people, it can be uncomfortable. Um, yeah, someone says, "Uh, my dad thinks uh, we joined a cult that worships Mary." Um, you know, um, one text that I've, I've pointed to people in the Bible – now, of course, it leads to a whole 'nother conversation about the canon – but uh, Sirach, the book of Sirach, chapters 47 and 48 in the Bible, you can find people praising the saints. Um, offering up praises to the work that God's done in the holy ones. So, that can be helpful to say, "Hey, you know, like there's there's precedents in the Bible and in Jewish worship uh, in in Israel and and the people of God like them praising, you know, the prophets and the saints and martyrs." And so, "Dad, you know, Mom, we do the same thing now. We're just we're honoring and praising them because there are they are our fath- our fathers, our patriarchs and matriarchs, our, you know, the holy ones, the the martyrs." So, that that can be one way of talking about it. Of course, Christ praises um, St. John the Baptist. And, um, and uh, of course, we have that line in the scriptures that say that say, "all generations," you know, when it comes to the Theotokos, "will call me blessed." So, we're actively fulfilling that when we call Mary blessed out loud and we honor her as blessed, we're fulfilling uh, those words of scripture. So, I hope that's helpful.
All right, guys. Great having you all on here today. I wish I could go a lot longer, but I've got to get going. Definitely check me out um, next uh, Wednesday 1:00 live Eastern Standard Time on the Orthodox Apologetics podcast. It would be great to have you. Also, um, by the way, I have um... [snorts] I also have uh, ongoing courses going through the first Christian hymnal. Um, going to have uh, the uh, third or fourth episode out next week, which actually talks about the praises of the Theotokos in the first Christian hymnal. So, that'll be coming out next week. Sorry for the delay. I've been traveling lately. Uh, so, that was supposed to already be released, but I'm wrapping that up. Um, so, that's a great course. I also have um, the Orthodox Bible study on the book of Ephesians with Sarah from Hamilton, who's currently studying to be a priest. Uh, pray for him. So, that's a great study that's that's out there for you on uh, this channel. Uh, for members, you can get it through YouTube members for five bucks a month or Substack, uh, Patreon, and other other member videos that are available to you. And also, just remember to pray for me, you know, uh, lot going on, lot of exciting things, but um, you want to always make sure that Christ is being put before all things and that he is the one that's guiding everything. And so, I would ask that you keep me in your prayers and our my family in your prayers.
Um, also, uh, I'm going to have an episode coming out on the Wisephone. Um, it's the phone that I use every day. I think it's important for Christians to be able to have a boundary with technology so they can, you know, avoid um, all sorts of negative negative behaviors that the world is drowning in. And so, for me, uh, I really appreciate having the Wisephone. I know other people use other... they they either put different kinds of boundaries on their phone, or they get the brick, or they get, you know, the Wisephone or something. But I think it's good for your own prayer life to find some way to have a a big boundary between you and technology. For me, it's the Wisephone. You can get 40 bucks off with my discount code King. You can find it below. And uh, it has no web browser, and it doesn't have any, you know, gaming apps or social media apps, but it does have a lot of apps that you can use uh, for like banking or grabbing an Uber if you're like out of town or uh, important apps that you might need. Uh, uh, yeah, so definitely check this out. I mean, it's funny. I actually was just talking to one of my good friends where he's got older teenagers in his house, and they homeschool, and they haven't had any phones, but they're they're wanting to jump into a phone. And so, uh, my oldest kid uses the Gabb phone right now. Um, but we hope to transition him to the Wisephone when he becomes an older teenager, uh, because there's a little bit more freedoms, there's more apps. Um, there's Google Maps, thankfully, so I don't get lost. So, so, uh, the phone conversation I think is very important. It's very important for, you know, uh, families of faith, uh, to be having these conversations so that, you know, our kids are not constantly plugged in and constantly tempted. We've got to help them, and this is one way that I think is uh, important. So, there these are important conversations. I hope you're having them as a family. Uh, so, without further ado, I am out of here. Take care, guys. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.