Transcription
I came to you because I heard it for reasons the Lord has not revealed. President Oaks, correct? Yes. We do not know much about a heavenly mother. It's possible that God has multiple wives, but we know that we have a heavenly mother or mothers. We don't know what the reality is. That's the whole episode right there.
One of the things I came to you because I heard it was President Oaks, correct? Yes. President Oaks had I don't know the whole the full thing. All I know is that he went viral and it wasn't for the best of reasons. Um, just when I say best of reasons, I mean there were a lot of people that were hurt and I was like, who better to hit up and talk to about it than the the queen of handling tough topics.
All right. Well, last week social media has been a buzz because on Sunday, I guess it would have been July like 19th or I don't know what date it was, President Oaks was traveling, he gave a talk where he mentioned that we don't know much about heavenly mother. So, we know that we have a heavenly mother or mothers. And that "or mothers" is really the sticking point because what it's a reference to is the fact that, a, we believe that we have a heavenly mother. We don't just believe in God the Father, but that he has a wife. But we also have a doctrine of plural marriage in our history. Those two things have come together, and that can make people pretty uncomfortable for understandable reasons. I mean, heavenly mother is one of the most cherished doctrines for Latter-day Saint women, and plural marriage is one of the most difficult doctrines for Latter-day Saint women to grapple with. And so, when you bring those two together, sparks fly.
Um, President Oaks taught that it's possible that God has multiple wives. If we believe in the doctrine of plural marriage and in the 19th century, they practiced that. And if we believe we have a heavenly mother, then they believed that it was like a natural, logical extension to say, well, maybe that applies to heavenly Father as well. Maybe heavenly Father also has multiple wives. Now, in the 1890s, the church officially ceased the practice of polygamy officially. And so since then, we've really distanced ourselves a lot, especially as fundamentalist communities have continued to practice polygamy. The church has really tried to distance itself from plural marriage a lot. But the reality exists that Doctrine and Covenants 132 talks about plural marriage being a doctrine in the church. And so it technically is a possibility in our theology that that's true. But we don't know. We do not know. And neither did President Oaks. I mean, that's why he said mother or mothers. We don't know what the reality is. It's not been revealed. Most of the time that prophets or apostles talk about Heavenly Mother, they've always talked about it as a singular woman. So, I mean, who's to say what the next life holds? But it has caused a lot of frustration or questions or concerns because if you've never thought about that implication of plural marriage, it can be a little bit jarring to think about plural marriage extending into the eternities and even to God. But, I don't know, it's one of those things that I feel like we know so little about that I just have to trust God on this one. I can't spend too much time.
Well, two things. First of all, in terms of the comments, the reception, I think one of the most heartbreaking comments I saw was a woman saying that she was talking to her daughter about it and she said, "I'm like, if heaven, if plural marriage exists in heaven, then I'm cool with not going to heaven." Like, that hit me. And obviously, being a man, I'm going to acknowledge that I already know that President Oaks' comment didn't hit me as hard as I know it would have women. And the reason why I can say that is because there's a lot of difficult conversations in the gospel that I feel like I would feel a little bit harder because it's a reality for me that's not reality for others. So I wanted to take the time to to understand. So I appreciate you breaking that down.
Um, but my second thing is, do you think for, I guess for, I don't even know how to word this. When it comes to plural marriage and our understanding of marriage, is it, do you think that our culture and our, I guess like worldly perceptions of marriage play a part into our feelings about it? Cuz I feel like, let's say that there's a possibility that it exists in the eternities, I would hope that there's some sort of understanding that, or some sort of peace that could be found with it. The reason why I say that is because a lot of marriages throughout history have been, when I talk about male dominance, it's like a power struggle. Like, in terms of healthy marriages, I would say that there's a great number of marriages that weren't healthy. So if there's like a man that goes into plural marriage thinking that they're like, it's he's on a power trip and he just wants control over women, then that directly goes against D&C 121, right? So, I'm trying to wrap my head around trying to understand God's ways from our mortal lens and then how to find comfort in the fact that the reality is, no matter what you want to believe in, you're never going to know the full thing. And I think God has been very particular at making sure that he gives us proof that he, that he exists individually, but there are things that we won't find out until later. And I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's because we are not ready, but how do we reconcile? Like, like my feelings are all over the place. I know. But how do I reconcile all of that in terms of being a faithful disciple and then also giving grace and hoping that I receive that same grace and just, I guess navigating this whole topic.
Hey, I mean, that's like the whole point of life is to grapple with that and try to figure out what God's ways are because they're different than our ways. And when it comes to plural marriage, it is a challenging issue because I, I think for so many people, it just feels fundamentally unfair, unequal. If one man can have multiple wives, but it doesn't go the other way around. And it can be so personal because we're talking about marriage, which is like the most intimate bond or relationship we have on Earth. And it's a really personal bond. And, you know, adding another person into that relationship is really hard. Like, that's totally understandable. As we've learned from Coldplay Jumbotrons, adding another woman in a relationship can end really, really badly, or it can result in really great memes. But with short marriage, it's, it's, it's hard. Yeah. And, and people, you know, it, it feels like betrayal to add another person to that relationship. I totally get that. Um, and so I, I very much understand why that doctrine is hard and it hurts, but it come, it comes back to this idea that like our ways are not God's ways. And so if we have discomfort about plural marriage, it could be one of two things. Maybe it's because plural marriage is wrong and it's false and we're right. Or maybe it's because God knows something that we don't. Yeah. And trying to navigate those two extremes is, is hard. Trying to figure out, okay, God, what do you know that I don't know about fairness in the eternities, equality in the eternities?
Fairness and equality are virtues that we hold so dear in society today. In generations past, people also held a lot of weight towards loyalty, towards authority, towards duty. And so, our values as a society have shifted a little bit where fairness and equality are so important for good reason. Um, and so when we see a situation that looks unfair, looks unequal, it can be easy to then say, well, either God must be evil or this is wrong. Like, I don't want to go to heaven if plural marriage is there. Well, maybe, maybe that's true. But I think maybe there's something about our own hearts that need to change as far as like why plural marriage exists. We don't know a lot. We've been given very few reasons in the scriptures why plural marriage even exists. One of them was an Abrahamic test. So like, God knew that this was hard. He described it in terms of being like Abraham having to sacrifice Isaac. He knows that this is a refining fire. And for some saints in the 19th century, that was the refining fire they needed to become more Christlike, more selfless, and become the people that God needed to them to become. Um, he, in the Doctrine of Covenants, the Lord talks about, um, raising up a righteous seed. And so, you know, plural marriage, adding more relationships to a marriage can have a higher birth rate. It doesn't always end up that way. And so we don't really know what that means or what God intended for that. But in the 19th century, plural marriage did create a very tightly bonded community of people who had to support each other through hard times. And after many deaths left a lot of widows, a lot of widowers, a lot of orphans. Plural marriage was one mechanism to help people support each other through that community. And it created a very tight-knit Zion in a way to help that the saints in Utah grow at that time. Um, the other reason is because it was a restoration of all things. I mean, the Doctrine of Covenants says this is a restoration of all things. So that implies like, okay, in the Old Testament, we know that Abraham practiced marriage. Uh, David and Solomon took on wives, though the Lord also condemns them as doing it unrighteously. The Book of Mormon condemns it when it's done unrighteously. And so the, the thinking goes that, okay, if this is the dispensation of the fullness of times and this is the restoration, we've got to restore all of the practices that God has instituted in some form or another. And so that's, that's another reason. But those aren't very robust theological reasons. They're just little hints at what might be going on behind the scenes of God's mind.
So, at the end of the day, we really do have to put a lot of faith and trust that what, what is the most important. So, it really comes down to the primary questions and the secondary questions. Elder Bruce C. Hafen talks about this a lot that like, when it comes to your faith and your testimony, you've got primary questions. These are things like, I know God is real. I know he loves me. Um, I know that the restoration of the gospel is of God. Those are like the most core things. Then there are secondary things like plural marriage, racism in the church, uh, seer stones, polygamy, and Heavenly Mother discussions and all these things that are difficult and challenging and important to talk about and important to address, but they are not the foundation of your testimony. They're going to be periphery to that. And so when I think when I encounter any issue, whether it's plural marriage or LGBTQ issues or race in the priesthood or whatever, and something is uncomfortable for me or it doesn't sit right, I, I have to always anchor myself by going back to those primary questions. Do I know God's real? Do I know he loves me? Do I know he's good? Do I know he's just? If those things are true, then it gives me something to help me interpret and navigate those tough questions. And for me, when I look at plural marriage, I'm like, okay, it's something that seems hard. It's something that seems difficult and is counterintuitive to my own modern sensibilities of fairness, equality, love, relationships. But I know that God is just and good. I know that unshakably. Therefore, I choose to interpret plural marriage through that lens. And I choose to interpret, um, even mistakes that were made in its implementation through the lens of hope, love, hope, and charity that like, I think God just knows something that I don't. I think when it comes to the next life, we probably will have a different perspective of what those love and relationships mean than in this life where we are just more selfish people. We are protective, we're territorial, we get jealous. And I think God is trying to prepare us to become so much more than that. And so I, I try to think of, okay, how can I align my will with God's instead of my own understanding of this practice. It doesn't mean that I answer all the questions all the time. And it doesn't mean that studying the history doesn't help me a lot to contextualize what's going on, but at the same time, at the end of the day, there is something that just has to be left up to faith.
That's the whole episode right there. I ain't nothing I can add to that. That is like, that I feel like that is the only way that you'll find progress in any endeavor in life if you go, if you go forward in good faith. Um, the scriptures say that you shall know them by their fruits. If you go and you plant seeds of contention and you expect joy to come out of it, there, you're out of your mind. I think like, I always quote the Kung Fu Panda movie. I don't know if you've seen that scene where it's like, you may wish for an apple or an orange, but you would get a peach. Like, you seen that scene? But like, for me, like that's, that's what you have to do in any relationship. And I love the fact that I've never thought of it as, I've always known it's a covenant relationship, but never treated it as such in terms of, you have to ask questions. I don't think if you're going to be a member of this faith or if you want to be successful in any endeavor you want to go through in life, I feel like one of the foundational principles you need to instill in your life is the confidence to ask questions. And I think that skill to learn how to ask good questions, I think that's something that you can only develop by asking questions. So, if you just sit and just watch life pass you by, you're going to be like a feather in the wind. And I think the only way that you can solidify and be and have the Savior be your rock is if you ask tough questions.
I, I don't, a loving God doesn't want us to just sit here and just go through life and not ask him any questions and just say, just do what I say. Don't ask anything. I'm pretty sure that I, I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure it was Abraham, right? About his son up the mountain. I'm pretty sure he has some kind of questions before he, before he went up the mountain, but I don't know about this guy. But I think that's the joy of, um, just the platform that you have and the platform that, uh, Saints Unscripted is, is the place for not only saints, but people who are curious about the faith to be able to come here and wrestle with those questions. There are countless examples throughout scriptures, especially in the Book of Mormon, where people wrestled with God and they came out, um, they came out a better person. Nephi wasn't going to have those visions unless he asked a question. He wasn't going to at all. And I think for us to be able to come to the same kind of humility that, that President Oaks has. And I know that he has a good heart to be in the position that he's in. I'm going to, I for sure want to give him the same grace that I hope that he would give me when I, if I would ask, if I were to sit, sit down, President Oaks be like, "Hey, this is what I have a question about." I know he would give me the most Christlike response that he can muster up because of just the person that he is. And I think if we're going online and we're chronically online, we're not going to act like we're not. And we're going to go online and just be mad. It's just going to fuel, I think it's going to fuel not just not just negative fruits, but it's just going to hurt yourself. Not just your testimony, but it's going to hurt the, the potential impact that you can have for other people.
So, I think a great way to, to kind of wrap up this episode is that there are going to be people who, I don't think this is going to be the last time that a leader says something that's going to hurt people. Going forward, if there are maybe two things, three things that you can recommend that they do, like steps, how to process it, like the way that you go about it, what would you recommend?
For me, whenever there's like an issue that sits, doesn't sit well or I'm wondering about or curious, my first instinct is like, just take a deep breath. Like, calm down and just like, sit with it a little bit because the reality is that if you have, if you encounter a topic that's challenging or hard or it, it worries you or it hurts you, it can be easy to get into fight or flight mode and you panic. And I think that that is when it can be mentally unhealthy where we can really get ourselves into unhealthy cycles where we're psyching ourselves out. But like, just take a deep breath. I sit with it a little bit, think about it for a while, wrestle with it. I'm honestly like, not naturally a very extroverted person. So I don't always share like my inner struggles immediately. I don't like talk it through with people like, like others like need that sounding board. I, I like internalize it a lot. But then once I'm ready, I do think it's a really important thing to then open up and talk about it with people you trust. Like, you know, don't share it with people who you don't feel like have your best interest at heart. But if you have close family members and friends who, you know, would have your back, just like share that like, hey, I'm, I've always wondered about this. What do you think about it? I love surrounding myself with people way smarter than me because I, it just, it gives me confidence to know that they love the gospel. They believe in the gospel and especially on this topic, they know way more than I do about it. And so, like, that's someone I know I'm safe to ask those questions to, and I'd love to hear their insights. And so I feel like, take a deep breath, take your time. Don't feel like you have to be in a rush to find that answer right now. Sometimes these questions are the journey of a lifetime. And that journey can be really fulfilling and satisfying when you give it the time you need. And find people you trust to help you along that journey. And do some study yourself. You know, open a book every once in a while. I think that's a good thing for people to do.
I love it. You hear it first. Take a deep breath, talk to them, open up, and then invite yourself to learn. But I appreciate you so much. This has been uplifting. This is selfishly, this has been great for me to remind myself. So I appreciate. If y'all have any questions, please, please, please shoot them in the comment section. Um, Jasmine also released a video probably going a little bit more in depth about this whole topic. So please make sure you guys check it out. We've dropped a few different videos on some things that might be misconceptions in the church. One about the temple. Feel free to check that out. Like, subscribe. You know the whole thing. YouTube fam. We love you guys. Peace.