Transcription
The more amped up we are in coming at somebody, what we're actually doing is we're reducing their IQ points because their brain's being flooded with cortisol and a bunch of adrenaline, and we're making the higher centers of their brain like judgment and reason, reasoning and problem solving and all that. We're diminishing those as long as we're putting them into a defensive mode. Right. What we wanna do is with a lot of empathy and understanding and listening, we wanna make them relax enough where we can also speak the truth and have a possibility of that being considered. But nobody's listening to you if you're punching.
I'm so excited to have doctor Henry Cloud with us again on takeaways. Doctor Cloud is a clinical psychologist, and he's a best selling author. Today, he's gonna guide us through a really helpful topic, how to have a difficult conversation. Doctor Cloud, thanks for coming back and hanging out with us on Tableau. To be here.
Now we're not gonna have a difficult conversation. No. No. No. This is the easy conversation easy about a difficult conversation.
And, I love that you titled it that way, because we all we all have one that we're avoiding. Yeah. A difficult talk with somebody that we care about, and, we don't wanna ruin the relationship. It why is it so hard to have difficult conversation? What makes them difficult?
Well, I mean, it's basically it's a formula, really. You know, the research on this, the, I can't remember who came up with this for the first time, but we we're having a difficult conversation when three things are present. One is that the stakes are high. In other words, what we're talking about really matters. Yeah.
Like, it's not just the weather. Right? Secondly, when the emotions are high, and thirdly, when we have different perspectives. So that's that's when we bump up against each other. Yeah.
And and so it's it really matters to me what we're talking about. I really got strong feelings about this, and you don't agree with me. Or maybe you got a behavior that I don't agree with, and and it's hurting me. Yeah. That makes it difficult Yeah.
Because you said exactly the right thing. You know, there's something to lose. It it might be the relationship. People fear they're gonna lose their relationship, lose the connection in the relationship Yeah. Or they might lose what they're fighting for.
Yeah. Yeah. But I believe there's a cost if we don't have the conversation. Absolutely. I mean, we we're gonna lose honesty.
What what do we lose if we avoid the conversation? Well, you're exactly right about the first one. We lose honesty. A lot of times it's the honesty that actually causes the flaws because, you know, the Bible is pretty clear about about that sometimes the honesty actually will cause a division. You know, Jesus said, I didn't come just to bring everybody together, but sometimes to divide.
And and that actually happens sometimes. I mean, you got a heroin addict living in the house. Yeah. They don't wanna hear that they gotta get sober or they can't live there. So sometimes these conversations actually have real consequences, but without of which, we have worse problems.
And that's the hard part. Generally, people will get to the point where they know they gotta have the conversation because to let some something continue as it is is like not going to the dentist when you've got an infected tooth. That's not gonna be a better time. Whoever said time heals all things was crazy. I mean, tell that to an infected finger.
Now time is involved in healing, but it's time plus the grace of God plus truth, honesty, like you said. Yeah. And, I I'm I'm sure that over the decades that you've been, counseling people and and writing books about challenging relationships, you've seen a shift or maybe, an increase in intensity in the difficulty in having tough conversations because of the impact that social media and the Internet have had on people. Well, a lot of people are that's part of how you prepare to have one anyway. You know, a lot of people come into into a difficult conversation, and they're avoiding the most important principle.
Jesus said this. He said, we gotta get the log out of our own eye first Yeah. Before we go into a conversation like that. Okay. Because here's the problem, social media, everything else, number one, sometimes we're going into these conversations already amped up.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because everything we've read or what what the neighbor what, you know, what's our family tells about the other family member walking in. And we're first of all, we've only heard half the story to begin with. Yeah.
But, secondly, we've got our own emotions that are only going to get in the way. Now they matter. We have to listen. You know, the Bible says be angry, but in your anger, don't sin. So one of the most important things in getting ready is getting yourself ready and asking some questions.
Why am I so amped up about this? That's gonna lead you to a good list of things that you can write down because this really matters to me. This is something that I want. This is something that I don't want. This is what I wanna get across.
This is what I wanna ask for, and we have to get clear. Now we're not gonna communicate those things clearly or in an effective way if we're still angry. So like a sponge, just gotta bleed out the water. Go bleed the emotion off before you get there and get clear about what you're gonna say. Secondly, ask yourself, what stories am I telling myself in my head about this person or about the situation before I go in there?
Because I'm just gonna be talking my own stories, and I'm gonna miss the person. I'm not gonna be listening. Yeah. Yeah. I I can think of potential difficult conversations that I have, and I and I'm thinking to myself, well, I'm getting amped up about this because this involves truth.
This involves what my faith is all about. This involves the word of God, and I've somehow there's something in me that that wants to set the record straight and then I'm also amped up because I know that, you know, if this doesn't go well, this could affect my relationship with other people that know this individual. You know, like maybe my wife or my kids or or other maybe my boss. Yeah. And all of a sudden, I'm thinking, wait a minute.
I'm having second thoughts about even having this conversation because it's probably easier just to pray for the person. It is easier to pray for somebody. Yeah. But sometimes we were so amped up, you can't even pray for them. They can't even pray for them.
Yeah. You know, Bible tells us to pray for our enemies and, you know, Jonah had a problem with that one. Right? Yeah. But we need to have conversations, particularly if we wanna have honest, authentic Yeah.
Relationships and friendships. Yeah. We can't really, you know, we can't have closeness without going through our differences first. And we can't go through our differences first without understanding where the other person is coming from even when we disagree. And so to ever get to a you know, God had a great phrase.
He said, come let us reason together. And he never he never went in first guns a blazing. Yeah. You know, that was always always down the road. And and you make a good point about, you know, sometimes this really matters and it might be the truth and all of that.
We have to remember that it's it's exactly what John one says. It says the law came through Moses, but grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. Now the law we know, it was true. It's true. But Paul says in Romans, the law brings about wrath.
And what we know about solving difficult conversations is we don't lead with our wrath. It's not gonna turn out, you know, to that that comes after it's all over, you know, and the judge Yeah. Has the gavel. We gotta we gotta go into it with grace and truth. So you don't need to be weak on the truth at all to be graceful.
So are there times where we think this is gonna be a difficult conversation, but really it doesn't need to be? Like, maybe we make it more difficult than it needs to be? 100000000% of the time, some form of that is planned because we got our own fears, and we have our own our own pictures of the other person. I had a situation the other day. I had to bring up something difficult with somebody.
I was expecting they're gonna be defensive. You know, it's gonna hurt their feelings and all this. You know what they said? You know, you're right. I've been thinking about that.
I did kinda screw up there. Wow. I wasn't expecting that. No. Like, wow.
I got I got all worked up for nothing. I got all worked up for nothing. Yeah. Like like maybe the Lord leads the way. He paves the way and and That's right.
What about knowing the difference between whether we are disagreeing with one another like you're wrong and I'm right versus well, we just have different opinions and we can agree to disagree but this this this doesn't need to be, World War three. I mean, are there different approaches there? Or Yeah. I I think there are different approaches because some things really are matters of opinion. Some things are matters of style and expectations.
Where are we getting the problems? It's when we moralize our preferences. Now how many times has a couple, not that this has ever happened in my house or your house, but how many how many times has either the wife or the husband one of them is more structured than the other. Yes. Alright.
One of them's a little neater. One of them's a little, you know, one thing's a little more in order. I'd like to plan ahead. The other's a little more fly by the seat of your pants. Or flexible.
Let's go with them. Spontaneous. So by the spirit. Yes. Yes.
That's exactly right. And and why why we have to do the kitchen before we watch our show? You know, we don't wanna well, I can't watch the show if the kitchen's not clean. Well, but here's kind of something that I I'm pretty sure it's mostly true. The one that's neater, more structured, more orderly, they'll tend to moralize that, like, that's right.
That's the way it ought because this is right. And the other one is kinda like, you know, it's kinda like great time. We have to be careful when we're trying to speak the truth to somebody or sentiments that we're not making something an absolute truth when it's a preference. Yeah. The Bible is very clear about this.
There are disputable matters, and it says keep your mouth shut about that and do it your way and accept the other person doesn't. However, there are some things that are right and wrong. Yeah. Now here's the other thing. You ever heard the phrase, well, all sin is sin?
All sin is sin. Yeah. I've heard that. And and and sometimes people say that, you know, sort of like to make Trying to justify their particular sin. Whatever it is or or accept whatever.
But they'll act like it's all equal. Yeah. It's not all equal. I don't think so either. That's what the Bible says.
Jesus said, you know, you tied Denton, dent, dill and mint and cummin. Yeah. But you've neglected the weightier measures of the law like justice and mercy and faithfulness. Yeah. And so we've also gotta gotta look at what are we doing here and what are we going to prioritize?
Yeah. Sometimes, you know, with a teenager or a spouse or family member or whatever, sometimes, you know, there may be a lot to address, but you're gonna not worry about these because this one could kill them. And and Right. If everything's important, nothing is. Yep.
So sometimes we're gonna figure out what what are we what are we gonna let slide because this really is life or death. Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me of a a doctor in the tri triage at at at the emergency room. Right?
There you go. He got all sorts of problems with this guy that just walked in the door, but his lung just collapsed. And if we don't fix that first That's right. You know, who cares? I mean, he you know, his his finger's broken, but we're not gonna look at that first.
We need to we need to come over here and That's right. Pay attention. You know, Proverbs says, it is a glory to a man to overlook an offense. Yeah. Because sometimes it particularly, if I'm if I'm really wanting somebody if I want somebody to know Jesus and or they're struggling in their faith or whatever, and and there's certainly some issues that probably they need to clean up.
I'm not so concerned that that they go clean up first to get to the one who can clean them up. I wanna get to the one that can clean them up before we clean them up. That's a that's a great point. Okay. We're about to get into how to actually have the conversation.
But if there's one thing we need to remember, what is the most important thing to think about when you're going into the conversation? Am I ready? And that means have I have I really looked at everything inside of me? Like we mentioned, do I know what I want? Have I dealt with my emotions?
Can I go into their go in there and speak clearly, but but with a lot of grace at the same time? And really go in ready to listen before anything else. You know? The Bible says, he who gives an answer before he hears is a fool. Once I know I'm ready to go in and have this conversation, what is my goal?
Is it to win the argument, or is it something else? Well, are you an attorney going into a courtroom? Not right now. Sometimes it feels like it. Then probably winning the argument isn't the best goal because it Okay.
When we're talking about winners and losers, that happens in a courtroom. And at the end, somebody hears this argument, somebody hears that argument. It's a jury or the judge, they hit the gavel. You win, you lose, you pay, you go to jail. And generally in these situations now sometimes because conversations actually break down, that's where we end up.
We do end up in court sometimes. Jesus said something interesting. He said, settle things with your adversary before you get to court. Really, really strong passage. And so if that were in the background, we don't wanna walk out of here with a winner and loser.
That puts us in a different mindset. Yeah. And the mindset is, you know, probably in most of these situations, the relationship is paramount. And so we've got to hopefully walk you with a goal, and that's how we actually begin it by affirming the relationship, affirming the person, and affirming what you really want. For example, you know, Kurt, you you our relationship matters to me.
You matter to me. I value so much the work we've been doing together. I value so I wanna talk about some stuff so we could do it better. And so I think there's there's a few things that could help us to do that. So I'd like to spend some time and see if we can get to a good place, you know, to to go forward and even do a better job.
Now in that, you know, what we just said Somebody write that down. I need to say I need that's exactly what I need to say. Well, see, that's the goal is not to win or lose. The goal is to solve a problem. So what I wanna do is I want see, right now, we're on opposite side of the table.
I wanna come over, and let's get on the same side of the table, and let's put the problem over here. And and I'm gonna try to get to a place where you and I can be teammates in solving that problem. Now if I go in and I wanna win and I wanna lose, you know, I could do that. I could try to do that. You might be better at it, your argument better, whatever, but we're not on the same side of the table then.
And that's really, really important to get clear in your head. What do I want out of this? Now having said that, sometimes what I want out of this is to end something. Sometimes we gotta fire somebody. Sometimes as Matthew 18 says, we gotta separate from somebody.
Or maybe you're breaking up with a with a boyfriend or girlfriend? You're Yeah. You're you're ending something. Okay? But most of the times that comes I go to Matthew 18, for example.
That comes as the last step of having tried to fix the problem in multiple attempts. And so we gotta get that clear that that we really would like to have a good relationship. We just wanna solve a problem. Yeah. Now the problem might be in the other person's behavior.
The problem might be that you and I want different things, and and our needs are in conflict. So if we can work together, how can we both get what we need by giving up our particular positions on this? Yeah. If we get locked into their positions. Okay.
So I'm ready. I'm I I know what I'm looking for, and that's not to win the argument. It's it's to solve a problem together with this person. So what are some tips on how to clearly articulate my my goals and and my approach? Well, let's just say, for example, somebody's got a bad behavior.
You know, that, maybe they're overusing substances or maybe they're not paying the bills or maybe they're responding to you in a certain way. It's very important that we stay out of the accusatory even though we're talking about their behavior. Kind of the blame me, condemn me, shame me, all that kind of stuff. And and I really am there ultimately because something matters to me, right, as well as I care about you. And not ultimately, but both.
And and even if it's about, like, the other person's behavior, you know, I could say, you know, I really wanna be close to you, but when you over drink and pass out like you did last night or you start yelling, I go away inside. I wanna be close to you. I think you want that too, but I can't as long as you're doing that. And I wanna talk about solving that because I wanna be close to you. See, what I've just done is I pointed out their drinking problem, but I'm making it about what I really want, which is our relationship, and this problem is getting in the way of that.
Now I've also said, I think you want us to be close too, and I don't think you would want to be doing anything that that makes it difficult for that to happen, but but I can't be close to you if you're yelling at me. Yeah. That's great. What about when tensions are running high and it's very difficult for you to fully listen to what the person is saying because they're saying stuff that's just not true? Like like, you wanna say, like, wait.
Woah. Hold. Time out. And you wanna interrupt and correct the false statement that they made or at least the statement that you believe is false. Yeah.
What what how do I continue to listen when all I wanna do is correct? Well, the first thing is that you we really do have to manage our emotions. Because if you're wanting let's just pretend that correction is a possibility. Okay? Which a lot of times it is.
But that requires they're taking in new information that you're giving them. Okay? As long as they are defensive, their brain will not let anything new in because it's trying to get safe first, either by punching you or moving away, fight or flight. K? And so the more amped up we are in coming at somebody, what we're actually doing is we're reducing their IQ points because their brain's being flooded with cortisol and a bunch of adrenaline, and we're making the higher centers of their brain by judgment and reason, reasoning and problem solving and all that, we're diminishing those as long as we're putting them into a defensive mode.
Right. What we wanna do is with a lot of empathy and understanding and listening, we wanna make them relax enough where we can also speak the truth and have a possibility of that being considered. But nobody's listening to you if you're punching them. Right. It's just, you know, the wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God.
That's what the Bible says clearly. And so, you know, sometimes sometimes ultimately push and push and push, you know, there are times where we've got to be very firm, you know, before somebody, you know, finally gets it. But most of the time, that's after everything else has failed. So if if somebody's really got something that's, you know, just wrong, you can still say it in a nonadversarial way. Yeah.
You can say, well, I mean, I hear you. I understand that that's how you remember it. The way I remember it is different, and here's the way I remember it. And I can give whatever it is, and but I've said it in a way that gives a possibility of they're going, well, gosh. You're right.
You did walk through the door first before. There's a possibility Yeah. Of that. Yeah. But sometimes you're gonna get to a log jam on this reviewing the history thing.
Yeah. And you I've been Yeah. Generally, the best thing is, well, you know what? You we have different recollections of this for a lot of different reasons. Who knows?
We don't have a tape of our conversation, or we should have written it down. We didn't. But what's the best way forward? What do we do now? Given that you think we agreed to $10, I think we agreed to 8.
Where do we go from here? Yeah. Again, getting on the same side of the table to solve the problem together. Problem. And then I would start with, you know, tell me what you really want for going forward.
There's a lot of different ways that that that we can solve this. But the best way to be figuring out some way forward that's good for both of us. So let's let's talk about that. What's the way forward? Let's stop.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's where we wanna get is we wanna move toward that resolution, that that relationship health again. But ultimately, and and by the way, what I'm not saying is we don't go forward by giving in to things that aren't right going forward.
You know, if somebody's abusive for example Right. Or whatever, we we can't say, well, just because I wanna go forward, you get to continue to be abusive. That's not what we're saying at all. What we're saying is, with forgiveness, I can I can forgive the past? You know, forgiveness is free.
Trust for the future, that's gotta be earned. Finally, what do we do if we do all the things you're talking about here, all the things that you lay out in this book, we're doing everything right, and the other person is just going ballistic. They get emotional. They get upset. They say this conversation's over, or I can't believe that you think that, and they just lay into you.
Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I mean, last thing I wanna do is is upset you, and the very last thing I wanna do is for you to leave upset. And the very last last thing I want you to do is even if you leave upset, which that's fine if you need some time to go, you know, think about this. Last lesson Last thing I want you to do is that we can revisit this and see if we get to a better place. But just because you're upset, doesn't mean I have to be.
It takes two to fight. Always remember that. Yeah. It takes two to have a fight. It takes two.
So you can you can pull the plug on a on a on a fight just by not And and here's the thing, put this little formula together. Empathize and stay firm on your limit. Well, I'm sorry what I'm telling you is frustrating to you, but it is what I need, and it is what I want, and I would need to hold to that. And I really don't want it to upset you, but if it does, I get it, but I gotta say no. And I hope we hope we get past that.
Yeah. I'm really sorry it upsets you. Man, next time I have a difficult conversation, I might, I might show up on your phone and and and and and and I'll put my wife on on on the phone for you to talk to her. Doctor Cloud. Time it correctly when I'm at one of those.
We'll let them talk to each other. A deal. We'll let the FaceTimes FaceTime. Deal. Deal.