Transcription
As with you all. I was telling you probably the most impactful interview I've done in my career.
Heroes now like real heroes.
I heard Rashad and Troy talk about the tax about finance, but we talk in a [music] language that is common to the people that's from the community that we grew up with. You all are the bright spot of real estate and our viewership for black Americans. This is the knowledge that actually matters. I'm applauding both of you for this. Thank you.
Literacy isn't a a a country issue. It's not an American issue. It's a world issue.
HE CAME TO EARN [screaming] OUR LEISURE. [music]
All right, guys. Welcome back.
Yeah.
EL, we got a special episode. This is uh something I've been looking forward to actually. You know, us obviously is a business platform and uh we always talk about things that may not be well explained. I would say you know a lot of things are kind of surface level um when it comes to business especially on social media, but um you got to have a deep dive and the only way to do that is to actually talk to people that really know what they're talking about.
Yeah. The people that really really do it. I think one of the things early on was like we get to talk to the people who do a lot of the behind the scenes things that people don't realize that a lot of people are benefiting from and uh today's no no different. Today's no different.
Ian Schwarzman um if you're a fan of the Joe Button podcast, which obviously you guys have millions of fans of that um I'm sure you know who he is.
I thought you were going to leave with with Ian and Mark if you're a fan of that. Thank you. [laughter] That's my guy. Now we're talking. Who gives a [ __ ] about the love that show?
No, no, [laughter] no. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. We're definitely going to talk business.
But um yeah, I mean I think everybody kind of knows you, but they don't really know too much.
They know something. They see you a lot.
Yeah. Yeah.
They hear about you.
They hear about you.
They hear about you. This is true.
I don't think they see him a lot. I think they hear about him. They see a tweet, but I it's like, you know, I don't think that they really have heard long form conversation and him his thesis on a variety of different things. Like it's more a tweet or, you know, kind of like a they get flashes of
Yeah, you'll see clips on on it.
Um I know you had the the show where y'all were talking with, you know, your significant others. Thought that was very hot.
A little bit more of you was being displayed to the world.
I don't know if that was the side I wanted display, [laughter] but there we go. All for the betterment of the network.
There you go.
Better of the network, man.
Anything to make the network go.
So, we're gonna have an interesting conversation. We got a lot to talk about and it's perfect timing as far as the
Yes, it is.
Is concerned. But first and foremost, thank you for joining us.
Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan of you guys.
I appreciate that.
You guys do the one thing that uh I feel like there's the biggest gap with, which is the the financial literacy, the business conversations that actually matter, that make the wheel turn. So, I'm honored to be on the show. I appreciate you guys having me and um I feel like we're going to have a really interesting conversation.
Yeah, for sure. So, all right, we're going to get into Netflix. We're going to get into the state of podcast [laughter] but before we start, let's let's let's bring it back. So, and let's really figure out exactly who Ian is. Are you Joe Button's business partner? Are you his manager? How did the relationship start? I know you manage other people. manage. Um, you said Remy Ma.
I work with Remy Ma.
Pre primo.
DJ Premiere.
Pap.
Papoose.
Uh, Royce the 59.
I work with Royce. I work with Brady Watt and Joe Button.
Okay. So, what is your relationship with the Joe Button podcast? [clears throat]
I am Joe Button's business partner.
So, you own you own a part of the show network. You're equity.
I would Yeah, I would say it's even deeper than that. Okay.
Um, the word equity is, you know, that's a loosely thrown around term nowadays. Uh, but I'm an integral part of how the business was formed and, um, how the business operates and runs today. So, yes, I'm I'm definitely an owner in in the Joe Budden Network. However, I will say this clearly that um the Joe Biden network is owned by Joe Biden, which is a very important piece. And I don't mean solely, but there are no angel investors or majority shareholders. Um it is owned by Joe Button. Um yes, my involvement is there. I do have ownership there, but it's it's in a very unique way. and and Joe and I have found a an ability to work together that uh has set us apart from every other business relationship you kind of see in our space which I think is played to our benefit and to the benefit of like the the podcasting and multimedia space at large.
This is uh it's interesting because obviously since you've been with the show there's obviously been a shift in in the direction of the show. How did you two first meet? Is it from managing the other artists in in the world of hip-hop and then getting involved in his career in hip-hop or was it like, hey, they've got something going on in there that's interesting that we can help elevate?
Uh, it first started through uh Parks. Shout out to Parks. So, Parks was DJ Premier's engineer and him and I had a very close relationship. I had been managing DJ Premiere at that point for 5 years and we were doing really well. And I guess at the same time, Parks was also uh Joe's engineer uh for his musical career. So one night when I was with P and Parks, Parks pulled me aside and said, "Look, I know Joe needs management. He needs someone who who really understands the business." Well, can I introduce you to I think you guys would be a perfect fit for each other. Which the rest of the industry when I started poking around felt the exact opposite. They thought we were um oil and vinegar, Joe and I, and it would never work. So Parks introduced us, brought us together. We had a a couple of meetings, and we actually realized that a lot of our sentiments were were aligned. Um Joe was at a point, and I know he doesn't mind me saying this, where he's like, "Look, what I'm doing isn't working. I need someone who actually understands the business, understands what I bring to the table, and can help show me a new way." and and those words resonated with me really deeply because I was tired of of just playing uh a business position. I wanted to have more of a say in the strategy um the creative strategy and um a new way of doing business. And this goes back I've been with Joe now almost 10 years as of April. So him and I have had a long run together. And um yeah, I mean Joe and I's history starts with us doing a final album, Rage in the Machine, that we did with Arab Music and and Empire and me securing him his first true independent deal that we still make money from every month to this day almost 10 years later. And when we were on the road uh with Keeb over there, my partner, um it was me, Joe Parks, Keeb, and a few other people. Uh we were halfway through the tour of and promoting this album. And Joe turned around and said, "I'm done with this stuff." He was absolutely ready to stop the music side and get into the multimedia and broadcast side. And I said to him, "Okay, good. Well, that means we have to put this down completely and hyperfocus on what we want to do with the media side. Um, and and one little thing I want to preface my entire relationship with Joe is the very first time I met him, I told him, I'm really not that big a fan of your music. I was more a fan seriously. And I know that sounds harsh, but
8 minutes didn't do it for you.
We weren't even 10 minutes into a meeting and I was like, I'm really not the biggest fan of your music. I'm a fan of your personality. I always felt like Joe was hip hop's version of Howard Stern. He was so polarizing. Like anytime I'd see him, well, I remember him back in 03 doing the morning show uh drive time morning show for a very short time. And I always thought his personality was like so brash and then secondary to that was uh his TV stent with like Love and Hip Hop and anything he did in reality TV. I just felt like, wow, this guy is something different than everyone else that's on screen. He's unafraid to be himself. Um, he's unafraid to say how he feels, whether it makes him look bad or good. And that was attractive to me being a huge Howard Stern junkie. So, uh, long story short, when I met Joe and we were having discussions about working together, I told him, I was like, I'm more interested in building a media business with you than I am doing anything with your music. So, uh, it was ironic that that ended up leading to his last album and us building, you know, the Joe Budden Network and and working on podcasting and media. So, it's interesting [clears throat]
and the rest is history.
Thank you for the interview. [laughter] Making history.
Yes. The rest is history.
All right. Um, okay. So, let's get into it. [clears throat]
Mhm.
What are we getting into?
Everything. Yeah, you guys are You guys know too much. So, I want to I want to get into real stuff because if not, we're wasting time.
We're family and friends. Yes, we are. We are. We got to Yeah, we got to We don't have time to waste.
We don't I mean, literally like things are happening so fast in the landscape that I'd be worried if something like this doesn't come out actually because no one knows [ __ ] Let's be honest. No one knows anything in this space. Everyone's doing the same thing they did in hip-hop. How do I get the quickest bag? And how do I keep myself above water so that I could do a show long enough to get enough money to hopefully make it to a second round? It's It's almost like Squid Games for media.
That's exactly We talked about that yesterday on our other show is that it's turned in podcasting has turned into to new hip-hop.
That's exactly what it is.
Before hiphop, it was okay, my goal is to put some music out so I can sign a record contract.
There you go. I don't care about my uh licensing. I don't care about masters. I don't care about I just want a $100,000 car.
Couple $100,000 up front. I want to I want to be lit and I want to travel the world and tour.
Money, jewelry, objects, things that really have no long-term value.
Yeah.
And no one really cares about the rights.
But the reason why the reason to me the reason why he did that because they they didn't see a pathway to monetize their music other than that. And then the south comes in and then the independent labels and then they then they provide a new blueprint of how you can actually still maintain ownership. Right. Right.
But now I think it's the same space in the podcast space where a lot of people are saying be independent do that but there's not a lot of people that have provided a set blueprint to how to actually monetize a podcast. It's very difficult to monetize a podcast for just a regular a regular person that's just talking about regular nonsense.
Absolutely.
It's difficult to monetize that. So, I understand that they look at it from a standpoint of I want to get a deal because how else are they going to make money?
There you go.
Well, well, well, as part of that, because I agree with what you're saying, part of it, and I'll ask you, Ian, is that is it the lack of transparency, right? So if people are doing it and there isn't the exact blueprint, I mean everybody's situation is different because everybody's value ad is going to be different. But because we don't know what's happening here or there or there, we're just kind of freelancing it. And what we do know is, oh, in music, that's how this works. Let's do that.
Right? They're copying templates that existed in the past.
I I would say this, I don't think it's a lack of transparency. I think it's a lack of curiosity.
Um I don't think there's enough people asking the right questions. there's not enough people knocking on doors that matter. Everyone's sort of um following the herd, so to speak. If 90% of the industry is looking for exclusive deals because an exclusive deal means you're getting a guaranteed check, then that's what the industry at large learns. which is why uh myself and Joe are so animate about putting out publicly some of the the partnerships and directions we're going in that are the exact opposite of the rest of the industry. I mean, yes, this is a repeat of uh the old school music business. Everyone's looking for a way to survive and eat. Okay, so that's the the premise of the whole thing. But the biggest problem that I see is no one knows how to build a business. So like you guys are amazing at teaching financial literacy, but who's teaching creators how to build businesses? Because in my mind, I look at I first of all, I'm a new dad. I have a four-month old daughter.
Congratulations.
Thank you very much. That's my proudest achievement. Forget the business and all that stuff. That's that's great. But that's my proudest achievement. But something I look at that's impressive to me and is very interesting and to me is the the litmus test of what's coming is in 10 years I don't think my daughter and her friends will be looking for jobs at a restaurant uh as waiters and waitresses. I think they're going to be content creators.
Okay? because I think that's going to be far more accessible and normalized than going to get a job at a retail business, a brick-andmortar business, a restaurant, a bartender. And so what's happening right now is the separation of people who are inquisitive enough to research how do I turn this into a business, this media thing, um, and the people who are like, okay, I see what these 10 people I look up to are doing. How can I mimic them? And if nine out of 10en of those people are just taking deals where they're giving up ownership and releasing the relinquishing their IP, then 90% of the industry is learning the wrong thing. My goal with Joe is is not just a selfish we want to succeed goal. I truly believe and I said this in a spaces with Joe and and Danny from the stop last night. I said I want to give the information out for free. I don't want I don't want money for any of it because I want to be in an ecosystem where some of the people I may want to sign uh do business with down the road are just as knowledgeable as me. I don't want to be working with people that are uh uh lost in the abyss aloof. Don't have a clue how to do business because then it's me teaching you everything.
So what's the blueprint? Cuz I've said I I mean I can give people our blueprint but our blueprint is unique.
But why? Hold on. Why is it unique? Well, is it unique or is it is it just that it worked for you?
It's a niche category that we're in as far as finances.
Take that back. It's not unique. It's your category is niche. Your business model is actually just you guys understanding how to do business. And that we got to stop making uh doing good business taboo. Why is that such a mythical thing? Business is business. It doesn't matter if you're selling cars. It doesn't matter if you're selling uh content. It doesn't matter if you're selling CDs or vinyl. Good business is good business. We are accustomed in music to taking bad deals because we need to and that needs to be eliminated. That from an from an integral point needs to be eliminated. This is the revolution of the the multimedia landscape. DTOC direct to consumer is the new path. If everyone's out here chanting, "Go sign a deal with Spotify. Go sign a deal with Amazon." And I don't think it's a bad thing if you do. But if that's all you hear, then how do you know what your capabilities are in a direct to consumer marketplace?
But most people are lazy, too, though. They don't want to they don't want to really be independent because there's a lot that goes into being completely independent. They want to take risk off the table.
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
Well, this is something we should talk about. You can derisk yourself, but then don't expect upside. Be okay getting a salary and stop looking googlyeyed at your your uh company that you work for when the owners get all the upside and saying, "Where's my piece?" Well, you don't get a piece. You were derisked. It's called plugandplay for
You think there's a happy medium that you can sign and still have some level of independence from the ancillary things cuz I always look at podcasting as not necessarily the content that makes money. is the ancillary things around it.
No, the content can make money and and that's where I want to help you. We're trained to think and we've been trained uh more specifically in in recent time to think that streaming um let's talk about music and content that streaming has devalued um IP whether it's music, content, audio. It's not true. It's just that no one's taking the steps to see what their value is, where it really stands. Because if all you're doing is signing exclusive deals, you're derisking yourself. You're also putting a ceiling above you that says, "I'm worth X." Because company Y says, "This is what I'm worth."
Mhm.
But the calculation's wrong. What they give you in a deal is not what you're worth. That's what they're willing to pay you. Their calculation on you is what you're worth. But they don't tell you that.
If if if I'm if if I work at Spotify, right? Yep.
And I come to EIL, I said, "Guys, I want to give you an exclusive licensing deal. I want your audio. I want your video. I'm going to give you a million dollars a year." You say, "No, Ian, I'm not going to accept a million. I'll accept 1.5 million." But back in my calculator, I've already done some crunching of numbers that says I'm going to make three million off of them. Let's give them the one and a half. You don't ever get to know you're worth three million.
Well, that that's part of it is right is is that how do even coming up with valuations is tough. It's not language that gets spoken about like how do we even know what it's worth,
Right? So like
Good question.
Well, how do we even know what the numbers are,
Right?
Really, if you really want to be technical,
Well, I'm going to tell you how how
Now you guys, this is something you're familiar with. We've built an enormously scaled business with the Joe Bun Network at Patreon.
I
So, so here's the thing. You can't know what your value is uh with a streamer if the streamer has come up with their own formula to pay you out.
Mhm.
For every 1500 streams, you get the equivalent of one album sale. Well, well then how the [ __ ] am I supposed to really know what I'm worth? But if you're a Patreon and you say every piece of content allocart that you want to watch on my Patreon cost 10 bucks and every subscription that uh we offer to a customer is either 5, 10, 15, 25 or $50 per month, then all of a sudden you can figure out what you're worth.
Your fans will dictate it. It's not a guessing game. And that's where I get frustrated. this real quick because there's that moment I'm sure most people were looking at it maybe five six years ago when the Spotify situation did come up and you guys say no right and then
Pivotal moment in in the in the industry of podcasting but go ahead.
Right and obviously Patreon we were on Patreon understand how Patreon works there there was like some creative uh you know things that were given to you guys or earned by you guys.
The moment when I believe it was Wall Street Journal puts out the article this year.
New York Times.
New York Times talk about conviction in the belief of what you guys had to the point of this year when it's like we told you.
Yes.
Talk about that.
So, um this goes back to to us being in a war room, Joe and I. Um because it really is uh it's just me and Joe, Heb and Cory at the very most talking behind the scenes of what we think things are. What are we witnessing? How are we looking at the data? Because to be transparent with you, we're not just a media company and we're not just a media company. We're a data company. I have been collecting the data from every platform that will provide it for us for almost 10 years. And so I'm not looking at stats or analytics anymore. I'm looking at a blueprint. I'm looking at a story. The numbers tell a story. Who's listening? Where they're listening from, what times they're listening, what's the retention rate. Somewhere along the lines of 2018 to 2020, I was watching uh an audience become ritualistically attached to the show in a way where I'm like, this is no longer about popularity. this is something much bigger. I was watching their their listening and viewing habits and thinking to myself, wait a second, how much money is it possible for us to earn if we weren't under an exclusive licensing deal? What if we My first thought was, what if we created our own app and we just had everyone coming directly to us? I thought, okay, Google, like we could set up passive Google AdSense. We could set up a subscription model. I wasn't thinking Patreon at first, but then I started looking at the weekly listenership. How many people were showing up weekly? Let's call it a million. Let's just for for sake of this conversation say a million people a week were listening to two episodes. So that's over 4 million unique listeners a month. And I started doing math. I went like this. This is literally what I did. took out my calculator and I said, "Okay, let's call it 4 million people times 2%." 4 million people listening a month times 2% of the audience is 80,000 people. What if I can get 80,000 people to pay us a monthly subscription? And then I did the math and I said, "Times 10 bucks. 800,000 a month. If I can get 80,000 people to move away from Spotify, to move away from our free tier and to pay for a direct subscription to exclusive content, not bonus content. That's the lazy way out of Patreon, but to exclusive content. Well, then I have an $800,000 a month business, which far exceeds what we were getting at Spotify, which far exceeds the offers I was receiving from other competing platforms. And that's where the the the dreaming, the thoughts turned into conviction. Joe and I looked and I said, "Buddy, 2%." That's nothing. You think if we shut down the show off of Spotify and Apple right now, 2%'s not coming, they're watching this [ __ ] 40 hours a week,
They're hooked. This is their Howard Stern. This gets them through work. They use it for entertainment. They listen with their significant other. They're laughing. They're crying. they're winning with us and I just my calculation was simple. I don't see offers anywhere close to that. The opportunity is much greater for us to take a swing here. And I said, as long as we own a piece of the company we get in business with, then I think it's a zerorisk proposition. And that's how the Patreon conversation started. I didn't just want and we went in there, we didn't get a dollar. We didn't want money. We wanted no advance. like we we wanted no support. We just wanted the ability to really figure out our value and we wanted skin in the game with the company we were going to bring that value to and we got both.
So let's talk about this Patreon situation. You guys
Sure.
You're the number one Patreon?
Number one. Yes. Have been number one for quite a long time, but the biggest we are the biggest network and creator to ever touch down at Patreon.
Okay.
Factually. Factually, [laughter] factually. Um, so Patreon, let's let's let's really break this down because
Sure.
A lot of other people have followed the Patreon model.
Yes.
I'm not really sure how how well it's working working out for everybody.
Um,
Definitely.
And there's other people that have different variations of it. 85 South, they have their own app.
That's great. Um, and like I said, even the reason why I said that our situation is a little different is because
Me personally, right, I don't see the value in charging for content. We have a payw wall, but our payw wall is a subscriptionbased model for our educational services,
Which I think is beautiful,
But that's a kind of a form of a payw wall, right? So, I think that there's different ways to kind of have different levels of payw wall, but you guys do it where you're still putting out free content all the time on YouTube. Then you have Absolutely. Then you have the Patreon model. Like I said, people have tried to just go full Patreon. People have tried to do what you do. Yeah. 5050.
Yep.
I don't think it's working for a lot of people. I don't know. I haven't studied analytics. So, why is it not working for everybody? And what what are people doing wrong that you did right?
That's a really cool question. Um, I don't think it's not I don't to answer your question, I don't think it's not working for people. I don't think people are working for themselves. I think people come up with every excuse in the book why things aren't working. And what they're not doing is sitting down with one or two people that they have a chemistry with on the business and creative side to say, "What have we not tried yet?" Okay, my formula isn't necessarily going to work for EL. Eyel's formula is not necessarily going to work for Joe and Jada. Everybody has a different audience, right? Um, but what I think happens is people hit a wall quickly, which we've hit so many walls, and based on what you do after you hit that wall determines where you land next. And I think it's not that it's not working for people. I think it's people aren't taking enough enough initiative to work for themselves. Um, this isn't the land of like if A doesn't work that means B through Z isn't going to work. You have to be willing to try some things. You have to be willing to say, "I'm only putting out one piece of content a week, but maybe I need to put out five. Maybe I need to release every day until I start to get a gauge of what works and what doesn't for me." And so I also want to make clear the scale of our business is not something that I think every business is going to have. We're we're the unicorn.
Yeah. Yeah, of course. You.
So, let's not let's not compare apples to R&D, but it's still something that But it's still something that you could It might not be How much money you making on on Patreon?
Um, you saw in the New York Times?
$20 million.
Was it accurate?
At least a million a month.
Okay.
Okay. So, you're making a million dollar a month on Patreon. Somebody could make a h 100,000.
So, what about someone making and this is where I get mad at people like you guys who are so educated, so well-versed in the business lane. Stop throwing those numbers out. Why can't you tell people get a hundred people to subscribe for 10 bucks a month? That's a that's a thousand dollar a month passive that you don't have. That changes your movements. That maybe frees you up one day a week that you can now dedicate to content. Everyone's looking to be a millionaire. I I'll be honest with you, I never even considered the numbers we're doing right now outside of a calculation based on listenership. I I didn't know if it was actually going to happen, but the goal was, how do we become nonreliant on the systems that are in place for everyone else? That was the goal.
People want something that is so [ __ ] pipe dreamy, man. And like at some point, a as leadership in this industry, we have to stop putting these ridiculous numbers in front of people and just say, "Hey, work on securing a hundred people to subscribe to your channel." 100. then work on a thousand.
A my theory is a thousand paid subscribers changes your world forever.
Yeah.
Because it's a monthly subscription. It's reoccurring revenue. It's the you now have a marketplace to sell hard products, ticket sales, uh experiences. I would say five to 10 different verticals to them and it could turn into a multi-million dollar business at a thousand people. I'm not saying you're making a h 100,000 a month and I'm not saying you're making uh millions a year. I'm saying the potential is there and and I'm not mad at you guys. When I say mad, I don't mean literally. I just mean I think because we are in a position where we earn in a really big way in our categories, we tend to project our goals onto people that are just starting out and I think it it discourages them. And I'm not say and I I'm with you. I've done it before and I'm I'm mad at myself for doing it. But I think we need to give more value to starting at the bottom and genuinely working your way up and through the process learning how to build a business, not learning how to become famous.
There's a difference.
I know a lot of people that are famous that are broke.
So people are actually after the wrong thing in my opinion. I'd like to see a bunch of nonf famous people learn the business and get rich.
It's getting harder though.
It is getting more saturated with celebrities. That's fasttracking. Celebrities are fasttracking the podcast. Let's be honest.
Celebrities are not c I'm going to tell you something. Celebrities in my opinion
are fasttracking failure.
Yeah.
I've watched Spotify. This isn't a disc. I've watched Spotify, Amazon, all the big streamers go out and get the biggest names in the world. Not only do those names not deliver a show, but even when they deliver a show, they're not delivering numbers. It's actually the opposite of what you thought you were going to get. Now, if you go get that same celebrity to post an Instagram in a bikini or next to a pile of money, you may get 300,000 people to like it.
Yeah. But what does that do for the overall business, right?
[ __ ] the whole industry.
Exactly. So that that's the part, right? So now when the company says, "Hey, we tried it with Celebrity A." Yeah. We're never giving that budget again. We saw that failed.
That's right.
Now that money comes down
Across across the board, too, not just celebrities, but actual um valued enterprises and IP that do deserve it.
See, and that's why I've done everything in my power with Joe to separate ourselves from what the crowds are doing. You know, like we're we're watching something very special happen right now with Netflix and podcasting. Mhm.
This is a good segue. Um, actually, let me backtrack. Spotify in 2018 to 2020 were experimenting with advertising, stitched advertising, ad reads, all that stuff. We went from the first exclusive podcast in 2018 to one of, let's say, a thousand that were signed to to Spotify. And when everyone started taking on stitched ads, I begged Joe. I said please. I said I said please let's not take a single ad. The reason was I saw the experience of podcasting being interrupted and devalued. You couldn't get through a 30 minute podcast without hearing 14 ads. I was turning shows off that I used to listen to religiously. So that's why I asked him stay away. Yeah, we lost money. We we lost potential money, but we gained the the respect and kept the experience at a premium for our listenership and viewership. And that ultimately helped us win over any sponsors or advertisers or corporate partnerships down the road that we would have had in the moment for light money.
Yeah.
You know,
Yeah, you talked about uh experiencing walls. Obviously you guys super successful again a unicorn in the space but you said you experienced walls and barriers.
Oh yeah.
Um obviously we talked about the Spotify thing but I think change is is something that a wall that people kind of overlook. Most shows when they have a change show is going to not do well.
Oh yeah.
You guys have had change and it almost feels like it's a constant change whether it's we go from one day to three day. We went from three holes to five holes to six holes to one hole cast member losing cast and the show just becomes even more successful with each variation.
How is that maintained? And how did did you experience adversity at the time it's happening? Cuz it feels like it's just like a natural thing. All right. Well, here's how we're going to respond to it.
Um those were scary times because because it was like a first. Anything when you're first going through it is extremely intimidating. And when all the adversity that you guys are talking about was occurring in real time, yes, we were fearful because A, you don't know how the audience is going to react, b you don't know how the partners you have are going to react, and c it also leaves the show in limbo. So, you know, um, referencing losing uh, you know, our original cast when when the the big split happened, that was shocking for us. I mean, things weren't good energetically between the crew, but that happens in any group setting. Musically, like, it's across the board in businesses. It's no different in podcasting. So, things weren't kosher in terms of like how people were getting along. And it was also noticeable publicly on the show. So, when we faced those moments, I would be lying if I said like, "Yeah, I wasn't worried. Like, I I just wasn't sure of what the outcome was going to be." And, you know, that's worrisome. and and we were at this like this this um turning point each time we were it felt like like um an animal outgrowing their space like I need a bigger space to live like like we needed to shed the skin and go through that experience and whatever came on the other side we needed to go through it and experience it to get better.
And so yeah uh definitely questions from the partners ers definitely questions from um leadership myself um the the remaining hosts when there would be these these complications and and you learn how to be a business owner. You learn how to handle these difficult times with grace even if you're panicking inside because there was that.
There's this one part too it was like the JBP network.
Yeah.
Uh had other shows.
Oh that failed.
Right so like.
Yeah. like absolutely like there's no like sweet way around it. Like we started shows, we were ambitious, we were watching the success of the Joe Buddton podcast and we said we could do more. And honestly, some of it was premature. Like we ran into the fire thinking we could handle things that we absolutely were not ready for. But doing that made us stronger. It made us so much more powerful. It it gave us experiences that a conversation from one of our uh elder statesmen who's been there and done it like a Steve Harvey or they couldn't have taught us. You some things can't be told and received. They have to be experienced so that you know what what you went through. You could you could recall it down the line. You could use it as you know power of information to help you with what's coming next. And um yeah, we were not ready. We had we started shows they they failed. Um they started great, but because we were so green thumb in in knowing how to be actual network executives, talent management, um all the stuff that we would that I was handling for Joe and the podcast, you multiply that and you're underst staffed. You're you're not ready for certain things. It it could have drowned us, but it didn't. We never let it really go that far.
Talk about No, okay. You talk about Netflix. Let's get into this conversation. So, Netflix
Shaking up the industry. They just signed um iHeart's some of iHeart podcast.
Yes.
Breakfast Club, Joe Jada.
Like 19 shows.
So, I spoke to Charlemagne yesterday actually about this.
Yeah.
And he had an interesting um take on it.
What was his take?
His take was that it's beneficial. You don't really know exactly how it's going to play out, but it's beneficial from the standpoint that YouTube has been taking advantage of creators for a long time and that there's no alternative to YouTube. Um Netflix obviously a higher level of production. Um so it's
Is it
Traditionally Netflix show like you have to even if you're filming a documentary on Netflix to my understanding it has to be done with a certain level of camera or they're not going to even 4K. Um so YouTube you could do any you could put anything on YouTube.
Yes. But but
Okay keep going.
So so he was just saying that he felt that um like he said he wasn't 100% sure of like the total outcome but he just feels like okay you know Netflix it's it's a a situation that could potentially shake up the industry and
That I agree with.
Add more options better. Agree.
Than having like a monopoly in a sense as far as just YouTube controlling all of the content. And then I look at it from a standpoint of like obviously that's going to come with certain level of guarantees as far as money. Going back to this situation,
It also some creators might be a little scared and nervous because it's like me personally, I'm going to be watching a lot less Breakfast Club content. Not because I don't like the Breakfast Club, but I'm not on Netflix that like I'm on YouTube all day on my phone,
Right? Netflix is something I have to actually take time, sit down on my couch 11 o'clock at night, scroll, watch the television on. I make a conscious decision. I've never really watched Netflix on my phone other if I download a documentary on a plane,
Right?
But if I'm watching just a random interview, I'm in the spur of the moment, I just want to listen to it on my car.
You want to hit YouTube, get in, get out.
But Netflix also, I mean, you know, they have shows that have billion Diddy documentary has like billions of streams already in a couple of weeks. So true.
They've pushed it to their audience, too. So they things can go viral on Netflix as well.
Things do. [clears throat]
Okay. Netflix.
Mhm.
Coming in the podcast industry. You talked about it. It is kind of reminiscent of something that happened a couple of years ago. So let's let's have this conversation.
Sure. I think uh Netflix and YouTube were at war. Um podcasting changed the habits of listenership and viewership. Um, Netflix and YouTube are at war with cable television viewers and podcast listenership across all DSPs. Vodcasts, which are the video side of the podcast, are becoming so relevant and so imperative to premium platforms that without it, all you have are 10 to 12 episode programmatic shows like Ozark and those take six months, two years to make. And then after 3 days of being out, what are people watching? What they've realized is what we've been saying for a long time. We're putting out two episodes a week, three hours each. We're giving this is just publicly. So the the Joe Budden podcast gives you six hours of free public and then another 6 to 8 hours paywalled. So we're talking about between 12 and 20 hours a week. We own the market share. Netflix looks now and goes, "What Spotify did back in 2018? Holy [ __ ] uh we're paying the labels all this money for the music licenses we have, but what if we enter the podcast market space and don't have to pay the labels their share because we're doing original audio with podcast. That means we don't have to pay the labels. We can collect profits every quarter, which means our stockholders will invest more money because they'll get a bigger dividend. I think the war is starting. It's not only between YouTube and and um Netflix, but it's YouTube and Netflix trying to figure out how to take over the most listened to and watched content in the world, which is podcasting. This goes back to my vision for what my daughter is going to do for her first job. They're betting 10 years down the line right now. They don't give a [ __ ] what show. This is Netflix. They don't care what works and what doesn't. That's why they're not negotiating with individual shows right now.
Now, I don't know what your conversation with Charlaman was, but he didn't negotiate that deal with Netflix, right?
iHeart.
I don't know if you did or not, but it was iHeart. It was
Saying iHeart the beneficiary. It was a suite of iHeart podcast.
Key word. It's a suite. iHeart was approached by Netflix and now I I'm I'm speculating. I don't really know if this is how it works, but I'm using my better judgment. iHeart was approached by Netflix. Netflix came up with a really beneficial situation for iHeart to take their vodcasts and put them on a platform like Netflix, not one at a time, a suite of them. And we just saw this recently happen with a competitor, Spotify, Bill Simmons and The Ringer. They announced 14 of, I'm paraphrasing, 14 of his shows were going to be the first offerings from Spotify to Netflix for their partnership with Netflix. And my first thought was, didn't they buy The Ringer from Bill Simmons?
So that means Bill Simmons didn't negotiate with Netflix. I'm sure he's pretty angry right now. I'm sure Spotify gets all the upside of the Netflix deal. I'm sure iHeart gets all the upside of the iHeart situation with all their shows. And so what they're doing,
But iHeart doesn't own. We talked about this downstairs. Breakfast Club is different because that's a iHeart entity.
The individual shows I don't know this for certain,
But
I know it.
What shows are you referencing? Just give me a couple. Joe and Jada.
They they own their own show.
They don't.
I'm asking.
Yeah. So, it's it's interesting. I know.
I don't know. No, no. Only because I was on the phone with iHeart yesterday.
Okay. Yeah.
I was literally tell I'm expecting for it.
So, a lot what's changed is that what you're talking about is 100% correct. When podcasting started, it was just the audio experience, right? And then a lot of shows you we had we started with it became a video experience as well. In the original contracts, there is nothing for the video,
Right?
Those are old school.
Old school contracts. So now they've actually started putting
Language.
Language. Mhm.
This guy's good. YouTube rights inside of the language of their contract.
Or video rights.
Or video rights. So now if you
Sign a deal. Like, if I'm Joe and Jada in 2024, I start my podcast. Do you think? I, I don't know who they have a deal with, but they have a deal. Yeah.
Who? Let's just say they have a deal with some network. Do you think that their deal didn't include video rights in 2024 and five?
Yeah, that and I'm, I'm sure it did because the language has changed even in negotiating contracts and even with us, like in our contracts it was like, "No, no, no."
"What's the matter?"
"No, it's real. These are real conversations." It was like, "Look, not something that we're interested in, right? 'Cause we built this independently, right?"
"Of course."
"And so most people don't have a video component of their pocket."
"Today's day, they do. Labels know that." Labels being the powers of the corporations.
"The corporations and so now it's in the contract."
"Yes."
"Right."
"So they throw a little bit more money in."
"Okay. When you say standard? Oh, let's not just lump every 'cause we can't do that."
"What's the matter? Are you afraid of offending somebody?"
"What can we do?" [laughter]
"What is going on here?"
"I don't know anyone's contract. I'm just saying that what iHeart and the Spotify of the world are offering now."
"I'm saying for us, we've never given up any level of a video at all."
"That's what I just said. But I know that there's other people. 85 South, they never gave up their video."
"But they So now think about when did they start?"
"They started a long time."
"Started a long time ago."
"Exactly. I'm talking about the newer cont."
"You're talking about people that's coming into the game right now."
"In the past three or four years."
"Think that they're signing deals off the rip."
"Yes."
"That's giving up."
"No, no, no. Stop. Don't ask the question. See, now we're now we're going to now we're going to sound crazy."
"You're not going to do this with me."
"Yeah. Let me ask."
"Yes. They are giving up their video rights off the off the rip because they don't have any yet."
"No, because they want a bigger check. That's that part, too. And they haven't even experienced what it is to be."
"But they know that they're going to. It's not like YouTube is a secret at this point or they they know that video is a major part. Probably more people might even watch the video than they listen to the audio."
"That is a fact."
"Well, who knows better? They know, like you said, they're looking at it. It's the same thing that you said earlier. If they offer you 1.2, and Master P told us this 30 years ago, if they offer me one, I must be worth 100."
"There you go. They know if they offer you two million or 10 million for your video rights and your audio rights, they know they're going to make 30 off of it, right? Because"
"No one's no one's investing to get their money back."
"Right."
"They're investing to make the profit."
"There's a margin. Here's the other thing, guys. We're playing games here. We're playing semantics. Joe Rogan took his [ __ ] off of YouTube for his check at Spotify and experimented with his video on Spotify."
"That didn't work. Spotify has pivoted and now they cut a deal with Netflix so that they can now take the video of all the podcasts they either own or have exclusive licenses to and maneuver those video podcasts however the [ __ ] they want."
"That's Spotify and Netflix."
"What do you think is happening with Netflix and iHeart? I think I'm just guessing iHeart's having trouble making money on the audio side of all their businesses. Terrestrial radio, digital, they don't know how to monetize it themselves. Yes, on a passive ad revenue fill, maybe they're filling 30 to 50% of their ad inventory, but that's nothing. That's low-level mass corporate integration with products. They want to see real money. They have to give over an asset that is helping another company gain market share. What helps market share when you could bundle up 50 shows, 50 iHeart shows that have video components to it and say, 'All 50 of these are now property of Netflix. We're going to take three of your eight episodes per show and air it on Netflix.'"
"What happens with the creators? They go, 'Yay, I'm on Netflix.' But what really just happened is there was an enormous acquisition between Netflix and iHeart. Netflix paid iHeart multiples of the value of those vodcasts so that iHeart actually had a margin on the these 50 shows that they've been investing in for years, probably just making a small 3 to 5% margin year-over-year. It's costing them brain damage to deal with each of these artists. So, what's the one way they can go about it without having to negotiate with each artist? You go to the iHearts. You go to Spotify. What do you guys have rights to? Show me."
"Show me a catalog. We want to buy in bulk. In bulk, you get a deal, right? In any industry."
"Yeah."
"You buy one of something, you pay premium. You buy 50 of something, you get a deal. Both parties win. In fact, I'm sure even the creators of the shows got a bump in their salary."
"Yeah. They had to get an extra bump in their salary."
"Bump in their salary."
"Allegedly. Allegedly." [laughter] "Allegedly. We don't know. But we would assume."
"Bump in their salary. We would assume."
"I'm I I'm not saying I know anything. I'm just saying."
"They're getting a bump in their pay."
"So here here's the question though, right? 'Cause they didn't get their own structured deal."
"I would I would have to take a strong stance on 'absolutely not.' But that's my opinion. I'm probably wrong. Whatever."
"Yeah, you could be. You said I'm wrong. What you said is factual in the sense that when you offer a bundle, you're going to get offered an amount, but if you offer something singular, it's going to be premium."
"So, obviously, you're JB is is premium. This is premium."
"We're t we're super premium."
"Super premium, right?"
"Yes."
"So, Netflix may come to you, maybe they don't."
"I have deal, we have business with my deal."
"Here's the difference. Okay, 'cause this is."
"I just saw you posted a Netflix."
"Yeah, I I posted something. I wanted to just show people the Netflix logo on our show promoting the upcoming events."
"We were actually um lucky enough to to have the privilege to talk about the new uh Jake Paul Anthony Joshua fight that's uh December 19th, this Friday on Netflix. And um yeah, we weren't part of these announcements of we're going to be putting our content on Netflix. I love Netflix. I think they're a great platform. I think they've captured our generation. I think they're absolutely competition to any platform you could put in the in the the air around them and um a cultural staple that will not be going anywhere anytime soon. What I think is genius that let me or let me slow down. We didn't do a deal where our content is going to Netflix yet."
"Mhm."
"Our deal that we did with Netflix was um it was like an advertising partnership, you know. We have we have partnerships. Um, it has nothing to do with our content being on Netflix."
"So it's just the content your content is not on Netflix. Netflix has their logo on it."
"Not yet. No, not yet."
"So Netflix just put the logo on your show."
"Oh, you just have a segment show."
"We do original integrations for shows that we."
"It's a commercial. It's a commercial."
"We're doing commercials. You have the commercial for Netflix."
"Uh no, no, no, no. Lower third."
"No, no. We did Lower Third is just one of the the branded pieces of content, but we did an integration deal with them where uh when we agree on uh an event or a show or a doc or a movie that we both like and feel like reaches an audience that can be impactful through our show that we do business together."
"That's it. I'm not going to get any deeper into the business."
"No, but what does that mean? You're running a commercial."
"It means that we that they that they talk to us individually. They had a they talked to me."
"I I get that part. I'm just saying on the Joe Button podcast, right?"
"Yeah."
"You I have a I see a Netflix thing on there."
"Yes. The lo You mean the Netflix logo?"
"Netflix logo. So you have like a five-minute part of the Joe Button podcast."
"I think it was like 20 minutes the other day when you're talking about the fight."
"I And we don't have to do 20. Listen, I don't want to get into the the details of my deal structure. The point is that we have a partnership with them. Um, you just saw a first iteration of it. It's us talking about the Jake Paul Anthony Joshua fight. Uh, that's exclusively on Netflix and that was the extent of it."
"Yeah."
"That's it for now."
"But the content is not on Netflix."
"No."
"No."
"The it so that transition from we're not doing ads to now we are taking ads."
"No, we're doing partnerships."
"Partners partnerships."
"Do partnerships. Ads are like."
"One-off ads are like, 'Hey, [laughter] this Friday, December 19th, catch the Jake Paul Anthony Joshua fight only on Netflix. I'm Joe Budden.' We don't do that. Don't worry."
"You have a You have an integrated conversation that's organic."
"Yes."
"That."
"It's not just integrated. It's very much collaborative."
"Um."
"Interwoven."
"It's very interwoven. Yeah."
"Good word. Interwo. Good word." [laughter]
"Okay. Right."
"We have a very bespoke situation with everyone we work with."
"Cuz before the Netflix I was thinking Prize Picks and the way that was done was very interwoven and it makes me think of especially for creators how business begets more business right and so if that relationship works it's a proven model and test to say look we're good at doing this."
"You know I know shows that have 25 ad sponsors. I can't listen to their show."
"Mhm."
"There's a lot. I mean, I would say 90% of the podcasts out there now that choose to turn on stitched advertising or take on dozens of partners. I can't I know the show. I just can't tell you what products or businesses those shows are behind because they're flooded with [ __ ]. We went the other way. You don't see how little we shove down people's throats so that when we actually talk about something, you're going to know we believe in it and that it's an actual added layer of value to our listeners and and viewers. You can be assured if we get behind something, it's because we believe in it. I've been offered every check from every business that you see on every other podcast and we've turned it down because it's going to disrupt the experience. At some point, podcasters, media personalities, networks have to make a decision. What's more important? What is more valuable? The experience or this check today? And sometimes people miscalculate and they think the check, oh, it'll help me make more money. it'll help me up my production. They're lying. It's all ego-driven. The truth is, if you can't keep the audience engaged and happy, eventually the audience getting upset and moving off your platform will cost you all the checks you're being offered."
"Well, you also deliver content differently, too."
"Yes."
"Your your show is not based around guest."
"Yeah. No."
"The show has a revolving a revolving cast of characters."
"Yes, it does. With no disrespect to anybody that's but let's just be honest." [laughter]
"That's what that's what happened. That's what happens."
"I agree with that and I'm so grateful for that."
"So it's not like you're locked in like you're locked into Joe button and then the surrounding other people."
"It could be Mona one day. It could be Queen's Flip. It could be it could be Rory. My they haven't."
"Who huh?"
"Mal and Rory. Get it. Well, you saying in the totality of the show."
"Yeah."
"Oh. Oh, you saying over the life of it."
"Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah."
"Oh, no. I When you You said Roy. I didn't know you."
"Yeah."
"Roy Woods Jr. and Rory." [laughter]
"Roy Jr. is wild."
"Shout out to our guys."
"So."
"Shout out to Mory Povich." [laughter]
"This guy."
"But that's a that's a you I don't think there's any other show that does that to my knowledge that like a highprofile. We're the SNL of 2025 of this generation. We're the."
"The Office meets SNL."
"Um."
"That's good."
"We're That's a good one."
"We put We're a platform. Like we hope you use us and then go off and do your own thing."
"So that's that's the thing. You're not you're not going to be here for forever."
"No, we will be here forever."
"I'm talking about the I'm talking about the pe the supporting cast of characters."
"I don't think so. I hope I hope people go off and do their own thing and then want to come back as like um you saw that Eddie Murphy doc."
"Yeah. Loved it."
"Amazing, right?"
"Loved it."
"So such an incredible piece of art. But like like that where people are products of SNL. Mhm."
"They go off, do their own thing, and then it's like this big deal when they come revisit the set again and, you know, do a monologue or like I hope that's the long-term um play with what we're building is that we help people launch into all their best capabilities and then they look at us like we were this um trampoline for them."
"Do do they know that you you just that was extremely insightful what you just said as far as SNL? I'm wondering, do they know that?" [laughter]
"I said in order for them to work, they have to want to come back."
"They got I don't think everyone wants to come back."
"I'm here for two years. I'mma do my thing. I'mma get busy."
"I don't know if they know that."
"Like I said, I think the industry has trained most of our um talent and and uh best creatives to hold on to things as tight as they can for as long as they can because it represents security financially. The truth is um everything's nothing's forever."
"And sometimes it's better to get what serves you best and then move forward and know that you did something special somewhere and you could always revisit it."
"It but a part of it is in SNL would be is a good comparison now that I think about that is that there's the the grooming and the expectation like that's going to happen, right? So like is that part of the process too? like you I don't know but there's not a writer room for this, right? like some of those writers."
"Not not a traditional writer room, but we do have like a whiteboard and you know Cy Cory can tell you like um that's part of every episode is is watching the cast uh go up to the whiteboard and show their contributions and I've seen Joe and other cast members be like, 'Ah, that's not good. That's or that's really good. Let's do that at the top. Let's put this at the There is a process. Is it a traditional writer room?' Absolutely not. But there is a writer room actually. It's just not the conventional way you would expect a writer room."
"Yeah. I'm only referring to that in sense of like yes, those people become cast members. Those cast members come in with the expectation like this is the platform that's going to get me to the next piece, right? Not in a sense anymore in terms of SNL, but in that that piece for sure in the 80s and the 90s was like here's the launch board for me to now become."
"Hopefully."
"I think that's happening in real time. I think people are."
"I think people are coming to that conclusion as they get more time and experience around us."
"Um, and I really love seeing that that evolution because there was a there was a different kind of pressure on Joe and I when it was like everyone who comes here this is their everything. That's it's like it's almost weird. It's because most people in our industry are so reliant on money. That's all they're really focused on. And I'm not that this is not applicable to the current cast. I'm just saying in general, that's kind of the model that that that our business works on. And uh truly like I want everyone around us to soak up the things that we're doing, the good, the the failures. It's like growing up, man, right? like you have parents and your parents, you get one of two uh views of your parents. You get the things you want to replicate, the good stuff, and then you get the stuff that you don't like that they did that you hope you take and say, 'I won't repeat that with my kids or with my life.'"
"Um, and I hope the cast and everyone that works for with us does that for themsel because I want to see everyone go on. I can't wait for someone that's a part of the show to do something bigger than what we've done. That's going to be a hat tip to us. That's not a a threat. That's a beautiful thing. I always said this. I I like that everyone has moved on and that that is no longer with us and have their own shows, have their own business, have their It says a lot about what we provided, you know."
"Do you think that there's any real value in podcast?"
"Oh my god. The biggest."
"Not value as far as monetary. I'm talking about."
"Yes."
"All right. I had a conversation with Jim Jones and um I pretty much told him that I don't I didn't I think that hip-hop was a very destructive force in our community for a very long period of time."
"Paraphrasing."
"Yeah."
"And I think that podcasting is replacing hip-hop where there's value in some in some level. I don't listen to podcast but the vast majority in my opinion is is not helping."
"No, it's not."
"It's dumbing down society and it's not it's not there's no value in it."
"Okay. This go this to me is something where I think I could relate it to music. It all depends on what you're looking for. If you want to hear dumb [ __ ] there's dumb [ __ ] out there."
"But that's what's get But the music, once again, the music."
"I know that's what gets promoted."
"That's what gets promoted. But but hold on, I'm with you. But there's more optionality now than ever. more people picking up microphones, putting out their theories, their interests. It's not necessarily podcast. I think that word is limiting to Okay, there's creators out there that are talking making videos um and making original content about just about everything in the world. Educate everything. Like for for me, you guys were the first of um a show that served educational food for thought in the financial space that I felt like was like revolutionary. It was it was the first of its kind where I was interested in it. Maybe it was your approach, maybe it was your tone, maybe it was your knowledge, maybe it was a mix of all of it. But I was actually interested to to see how you guys were going to build and mold this thing. The same way you guys popped out, I think there's dozens of other creators that offer really cool insight into everything. And yeah, 90% of it's going to be garbage, just like music. But I do think there's value in it. I think there's value in really educated, interested people that put time and energy into [ __ ] they love. Um, giving you a a taste of their brain."
"But people really doing that though. I feel like the vast majority of people looking at like music at a certain point music stopped being a craft and it became a hustle."
"And it's like."
"And it's like, yo, I could just get in front of a microphone and just."
"It ends the first time they run into an obstacle, they're gone. So, we don't have to worry about them. I'm saying let's look at the people that actually building catalog of interesting [ __ ]."
"If we focus on negative, we're gonna find negative. It's like it's like with a relationship. You want to find something that's going to piss you off about your significant other."
"You look deep enough, you're going to find something."
"Yeah. You you you said once that uh the podcast space was a bubble."
"Is what?"
"A bubble."
"Oh yeah. It's popped already."
"And it's popped. So."
"You're going to see it crumble right now." [laughter]
"So that leads me to that then. So what?"
"Yeah."
"It's crumbling already right now. So then the val what rises to the top? Is it the value? Is it the creativity? Who are the the the subg genre people that will rise? The ones who are the unicorns or the new creators out here that are about to come."
"It's the people who set themselves up for success. They could be right now. It could be the guy with a,000 views an episode. not a thousand subscribers, a thousand views an episode, but is genuinely putting in the investigative time, doing the research, giving you information that has value, those are those people are going to rise. Those creators are going to those creators are going to succeed into the future. Um, what has popped is the hustle for a quick bag. To me, that is over. Because these big companies aren't interested in one show. They're interested in doing data digging. And the only way to do that is to go to like an iHeart or Spotify and go, 'Hey, give me your 50 biggest shows. Give me your hundred biggest shows. Let's let's watch how this plays out for eight months to a year. We'll have all the information we need after that. We'll cut everyone from the deal and we'll go sign the cream of the crop.' And that's what I was talking."
"That's what I think kind friend of mine at at a network um and he was saying like people come to him like a lot of rappers they ask him like you know and he's like look if this was during the pandemic I could have definitely gave you a million dollars at one point he's like but the [ __ ] is different now like you know money is dried up there's more saturated like the money is not there so now you have to bet on yourself."
"It's not even like out of luxury I want to bet on myself because I believe myself like you have to bet on yourself because there's there's not the same money that's floating around as far as the advertising deal structure. So, you can't even get a good deal if even if you want to. A lot of these people."
"Can I let me give you a good analogy? I was just talking to my barber the other day, and this this was like great timing. Uh shout out to my barber, Brian. He him and I have really good talks when he comes to cut my hair. He was telling me about his barber shop that he owns. He has 10 different barbers. Um and his business is based off of two different things. And and this in immediately struck me as this is the podcast business. Two different forms of business. One is walk-ins, people that walk off the street into the barber shop. And the other side of the business is each barber's book of business, long-term clientele that they build relationships with over time. And I thought, 'Oh my god, that's podcasting. We have a bunch of people that have entered the space that are waiting for walk-ins and those are the sponsors. Those are Spotify and Netflix is coming with deals. And then you have the barbers that have been in the game for 20 years that have 300 people in their rolod decks that never miss a haircut every month. And I when he was saying it to me, I was like, 'Holy [ __ ] that's podcasting. The people that you're seeing infiltrate the market now, they're here today and gone tomorrow. Those are the the barbers waiting for the walk-in. The people to answer your question that we're going to see when are the podcasts that have been building a rolodex and have been learning the business and are figuring out how they could survive whether there is um rain, snow, pandemic, shutdown, no ad money. They'll figure it out. That's who we're going to see rise. And I just thought it was important because when he said it to me about his barbers, I was like, that's exactly how I feel about what's going on in podcasting right now. So, I wanted to shout out Bryant because I it was that that struck me. Like little things like that really resonate with me."
"You touched on it, but I saw you put your story today. You said the deal number is not the real number. The real number is what they make off of you once they have your data."
"There you go. That's self-explanatory. Um, we were talking about this before. Um, the deal number is the number that you agree to to do the work that's outlined. The real number is uh it's two separate things. It's the money they make above and beyond what they pay you, the company that hires you or uh does a licensing deal or acquisition deal with you. And then it's the money they make using the information that you provided them through your term to then resell to a 100 different companies to help those companies function in their businesses. And it could be products. They could be selling it off to um hardware products. They could be selling companies. They could be selling it off to other streamers. They could be selling it off to other podcast businesses, data centers. They recycle that data. That [ __ ] gets sold and flipped every month to a hundred different companies. That's where the real money is. I you you don't hear about all the data center. I mean like this is where like yes data center infrastructure is a big deal in general not just for forget podcasting but data centers are important. Why? Because they the data centers provide information that give a blueprint to what consumers want and like. That's marketing. That's that's the the easiest way into understanding human culture and human behavior. That's really where the value is. Understanding behavior, behavioral science."
"That's a fact. I we we talked about the Patreon piece. Uh yeah. Uh it started as advisory. Uh and now that you said that there, you know, your partners there, I wonder what you guys look at the the network as a totality."
"Yeah. Are you interested in adding new talent or are you going with the route of we're going to create internal IP when we see like a Ian and Mark show and other shows? What what is the strategy with the expansion of the network?"
"Okay. Um so, uh what I what we what Joe and I really honed in on was we have what we need right this second. Let's double and triple down on stuff that we could do in-house, which is the birth of Podwives."
"Mhm."
"Um, which is, you know, uh, each of us that are on that show and our significant others. [ __ ] disaster. [laughter] I mean, it's a successful show, but [ __ ] disaster. I'll leave out why. Um, and then there's the Ian and Mark show, which is more like um a sketch comedy show with me and Mark Lamont Hill. Um, us getting in the way of trying to getting in the way of each other trying to create a sitcom. Like that's the the botto line of it."
"Office feel."
"Yeah, exactly. It's like an office feel. Um, and what we decided to do was create these shows internally that work first. Let's let's not let's stop reaching outward. Let's stop outsourcing and bringing new people in and let's see what we could do with the people we already have. Um, and so that's phase one. Do I think we're going to get to a place where um we're bringing in outside talent to do one-off projects or different shows? I do think that'll happen eventually. I just know we're not rushing into it, you know, like there's no race to to quantity, there's race to quality. We could do a lot with a little."
"Um."
"But Okay. Going forward in the future, looking forward in the future."
"Yeah. [clears throat]"
"You obviously manage musicians."
"Yes."
"Are you going to go into this space where you're going to be a consultant manager for podcast?"
"Uh, I don't know what I'm going to do exactly. I've been offered um I don't need it, but I've been offered financing to like create a multimedia management company at scale. Like think about like a."
"Like a Rock Nation for."
"Podcasters."
"Podcasters."
"Like a Violator."
"Like a Violator. Yeah. Well."
"Streamers and podcasters and content creators."
"Yeah. I've been uh I've been approached about that and I've thought about that. Um right now I'm not interested in that. Right now, I'm focused on what I'm doing and uh I like staying boutique. My partner Keeb and I are, you know, step in step just focused on on what we can focus on and build today. Uh a lot of times people drown in opportunity and I don't want to do that. I'll always have the ability to expand, but I won't have the ability to recapture where I am in the moment right now. So, I want to focus on it because I feel like it's historic and we're changing the landscape forever and that takes all my attention."
"So, yeah, maybe one day, but not now."
"I see. We went through his whole interview and as we were talking prior to this, I realized how intrical DJ Premiere was in this whole story. So, I want to shout out DJ DJ."
"DJ Premiere is the best ever, man. The one of the greatest people on earth first. um the nicest guys and most iconic uh composers, producers, artists to ever land on planet Earth. And I am so grateful and lucky to be in his presence. Without him."
"Um none of this [ __ ]."
"You parks."
"Yeah."
"Obviously that you get to meet you."
"That's everything. Well, well, I should go back. Papoose was the very first artist I ever managed. Um, P saw me working with Pap and and that's how he reached out to have me start managing him. So, I got Pap's blessing to go into that. Yeah."
"So, it's really without Pap, I wouldn't have P. But yes, P is like, no pun intended, kick kicked in the door for everything else, you know. So."
"Incredible."
"Um, yes."
"Now, the Nas album was Joe."
"Light Years."
"Light Years. See how we worked that in with the family, too. We got Joe in there for the exclusive interview. Um, I'm very proud to play a role in in getting the Nas and DJ Premiere album out. Um, shout out Peter Bit and Bender Mass Appeal."
"Shout out to P."
"Um, yeah, man. We we it's been an ongoing conversation for years. I've managed DJ Premiere for 15 years and every year we talk about we talked about getting the Nas and P album out. So, to finally lock in about it a little over a year ago and start seeing the sessions come to life. Uh, I used to talk as a kid about how much I love Nas. And I'm lucky enough to say that we got one of the most mythical uh desired hip-hop projects in history out in the world. Uh, the album's called Light Years. Uh, please listen to it. Um, enjoy it. Let it live with you. And, uh, I hope people like it."
"I appreciate you fellas."
"Oh, too easy."
"Appreciate you, man."
"Thank you. Thank you for having It's a wrap. Yeah. Yeah."