Transcription
And I always say, I don't sell anything. I just help people invest in future outcomes.
When I look over the largest, most transformative deals of my history, there's always a change agent. Somebody that wants to break some glass or make a name for themselves.
I used to say, "If you can't measure it, it doesn't count." So, if you can't put it in a business metric that they agree with, you don't have a deal.
I basically said to myself, "You know what? I need to slow down, focus on what's most important, and that's being present with my family. I need to work. I'm the only wage earner in my family, so I need to come up with a better plan because this approach is, you know, I'm not too happy with the outcomes right now."
"Said in every deal, I think your words were, 'I got more people promoted in their own companies than anyone else.'"
So, you're the CEO of your territory. Where you spend your time is almost like investing your time in strategic stocks, and each of these things are going to turn out some level of return. What are some business outcomes that you've seen that move the needle in terms of getting big deals done?
Welcome everyone to this month's fireside chat. I know I say this every time, but I am incredibly excited about this month's guest. It's Mr. Bob Koviaak. And I learned about Bob from one of our coaches, Mike Fone, and he said he was constantly competing with Bob back in the day. And when I met Bob, I learned that his career is one of the most impressive that I've ever heard in tech sales.
So, a few of the stats. Number one, his total that he sold, along with the total around his team, is $1.2 billion, not million, but billion dollars. So, Bob, and usually it's like a hundred million is like the max, but, um, yeah, he's not a billionaire, but he sold over a billion in software with his teams and individually.
Um, the second stat that I thought was insane was his win rate. He has over a 90% win rate. And I asked him about competing with you, Mike, and he said, "I don't know if I ever lost to Mike or anyone else for that matter. I don't lose." I'm like, "All right. All right. Well, is that true, Mike, or is that just Bob beating his own drum?"
"Uh, can I plead the fifth on that?"
"No comment. You can't."
"I peaked early. Mike became far greater in many ways. I just peaked early."
That's what he said. He said when you were competing, Mike was newer to his career. You had been a little longer. So, I had to defend you, Mike. But, um, in his defense, he did say that. He also earned the nickname Big Deal Bob for consistently closing the largest deal at every company that he worked for.
Um, Bob's been in tech sales for 30 years. 15 as an IC, then 10 as a leader, and then the last five back as an IC. Um, he's had elite performance at every level. He's crossed seven figures multiple times in his career. His last year was at Microsoft, where he finished 345% of plan selling Agentic AI, and now he's an AI solutions executive in a new division of Service Now.
Um, he also is a former golf pro. He's a scratch golfer and he helped create the professional sales minor at his alma mater, Bowling Green University. Um, he's a father of three. He's proudly seven years sober and, um, he really is a competitive guy who loves the game, and I'm excited to dig in. So, welcome, welcome so much to the show, Bob, and thanks for coming on.
Well, thank you for having me. What you're doing for the sales profession is tremendous, you and Mike and everyone. So, anything I can do to help, I really love doing this.
Well, I want to give people the playbook, right? And I know how hard it is to underperform and how that feels. I know how much pain and shame there is of not achieving your full potential. So, part of this program is bringing in people who are performing at the very highest level. So, you are making a difference by sharing your playbook. So, let's just dive in.
Um, I want to talk about the 90% win rate. And when I asked you about competition, you said, "I don't lose." So, walk me through kind of how you reverse-engineer win rate and specifically what the psychology is behind a mindset of "I don't lose."
Yeah, I mean, well, make sure you're focused on the right opportunities. But, you know, when I look at every deal, and in a very unique way. But obviously, for years, I was kind of just kind of learning these different things, and I, you know, I was like, "All right, how are they making the decision?" I had a loosely coupled process. But later in my career, I was introduced to MEDDIC, and we actually added the P for, when I was at a company called Sprinkler. And that concept has just dramatically helped me, you know, and I just rifle through, "Where am I at, right?"
I think the first M is so critical, right? What metrics are they going to use to justify a solution that will allow them to make this investment, right? And I always say, "I don't sell anything. I just help people invest in future outcomes." And I try to keep the technology out of it as more as the business. But I really look at, you know, you look just, really understanding where you are in the process, being honest with yourself, asking for help, and making sure that you are, you control the process as much as possible.
The other thing that I, I don't think I invented by any means, but I utilized, probably because I had a little ADD early on, but I always build a joint success plan. Well, when I joined Salesforce, people called it the close plan, and I literally had reps send the close plan to the customer. I'm like, "They don't want to be closed." But I would just come up with, you know, how they're viewing the steps that are going on in this process and get them to commit to timelines, and we agree early on that if we follow this process, the outcome will become this.
And I often find that the more that you're engaging them, obviously, and you're working on the same side of the table solving a problem, I've learned over the years that clients are inherently busy, or some people might say lazy. So, over the years, I've pretty much gotten my clients to let me write their business case and present it. I would say, "Give me your PowerPoint template. I'll do a draft business case for you on why this makes sense." And I just try to take all the friction out of the sale possible.
So, when you say, "I work the right opportunities," what does that look like? How do you know if it's the right opportunity?
Um, when I look over the largest, most transformative deals over my history, there's always a change agent, somebody that wants to break some glass or make a name for themselves. Um, and that person has to be truly a champion and not just a coach. So, really determining, you know, a true champion has influence and power and will sell for you when you're not around. Uh, figuring out if that person can make that happen. But if there's not somebody in there willing to do something dramatically different and take a risk on that, sometimes it's the political capital to do that, then generally there's not a deal to be had.
If they won't let you engage with their executives, then there's also generally not a deal to be had. Um, later in my career, I learned just to ask a simple question, and it's really, you know, "What are your most strategic initiatives?" and really learning what the customer is trying to accomplish. And I only align, I just try to make sure we're aligning and informing the customer that these are your executive strategic priorities. This project fits into these three. Helping them sell it internally. So, a lot of words there, but I think the process and then understand the psychology of the buyer and making sure it's a win for them.
If you want to simplify it, I teach a concept called the three Ps. It's as simple as it gets. Are you at power, right? Are you working with someone who has influence or power, aka champion? Is it a priority for them, or does it align to their top priority? And process. Do they follow your process? Are they going to give you access to the right people? Are they going to let you do proper discovery? Are they going to fill out a joint action plan with you? Are they going to engage in a business case? Whatever that process looks like. So, it's a simple way to, you know, align with what you're saying.
And you said the same thing. Um, let's talk about metrics.
Having a framework is important, and then having a common vernacular that you're using so you can kind of get a benchmark for what's working and what's not. That's critical.
How do you find a change agent, and how do you even know if you're dealing with a change agent?
Um, a lot of times, that's that's generally, you take them to dinner, and you just talk over things. You get to know them a little bit and get them to open up about what's going on. Try to understand. Um, I've noticed that people, any organization that does event marketing, people, when we were at Salesforce, people self-select when they show up to an event. That's like they're walking into a Ferrari dealership, right? They're telling you, "I'm in the market for a $200,000 car, right?" So, getting, you know, just getting the people to the right event and then making sure that you're executing on that.
Okay, perfect. So, so metrics, what are some of the, you said that's the most important? You told me on our call, you sell outcomes. Can you share a little bit more about how to sell outcomes or how you think about outcomes?
Sure. Um, a lot of times, a business wants to accomplish something, and then they assign the task to the most technical person in the world. That, for some reason, it seems like people that have the most strong aptitude for technology almost just have like a, they are not able to have a conversation on business value. It's almost like it's taken out of their brain, it seems like.
Yeah, that's why they're engineers. They're not, um, business owners or, you know, CEOs.
They build stuff, but they don't necessarily understand the reasons behind why they're building what they're building.
Right. So, um, basically, when people come to the project, or you're talking about a project, most of the time, you want to control your own narrative and offer up a relevant point of view on helping their business that aligns with your product set. But, you know, when people are like, "I learned this when I was at UiPath." When I was at UiPath, it was kind of the early days of RPA, and it was really exciting. It's kind of like Agentic AI right now. Everybody comes at you and they go, "We want to do this." And I just asked them, "Real why?" You know, and if they couldn't tell me how this is helping their business, then I would maybe help them reprioritize a better project to work on that we could validate.
But in the metrics component of a sales cycle, it's, you know, "What specific items are you measuring in order to make that business recommendation to move forward with an overall solution?" That can't generally happen unless you're talking about driving business outcomes. And that metric has to be, I used to say, "If you can't measure it, it doesn't count." So, if you can't put it in a business metric that they agree with, you don't have a deal. I mean, you might get lucky. But, so, if you can get them to or help them understand the critical metrics for success, and you're aligned on how they're measuring that, then you guide your sales engagement around accomplishing the metrics.
What are some business outcomes that you've seen that move the needle in terms of getting big, big deals done?
Sure. Uh, I'll share that example with you that we talked about. Um, when I joined UiPath, we were working on an engagement with the world's largest HMO, and they're $221 billion in sales. And we asked them a question, "What's your biggest business problem?" And they said, "Insurance claims adjudication." And I'm like, "What the heck is that?" And they said, "Since we're an HMO, you ask us for money, and we try to figure out how to not pay you." And I'm like, "Huh, how important is this to your business?" I don't know what this is. And they go, "It's everything." And I'm like, "Huh?"
So, big picture, we came up with a solution to help them dramatically simplify this process. The person we were working with was a, um, like a project manager that was a little technical. And we put together the overall solution, and we didn't know what to charge because we were new to the market. So, we came up with a number, and it was, let's say, less than $10 million. And we won the deal. And then they brought us into an executive meeting, and they announced our partnership, and they told us that we were going to help them take 1% off their bottom line. So, they, the metrics that we built together, they presented to their board that we were going to save them $2.1 billion a year for under $10 million.
You should have charged $200 million.
Well, I was new there, and sometimes people tell you down to.
That would have been a 10x ROI. That's a, I mean, that's how the big deals get done, right? They're aligned to something that was very big and measurable. If it's not measurable, if it's not easy to measure, you've got to come up with the critical components of that that will make sense.
Yeah. So, so this aligns to one of the strategies that you said was biggest for you, which is "Make the customer the hero." You said, "In every deal, I think your words were, 'I got more people promoted in their own companies than anyone else.'" And I'm after helping the champion get a promotion. Can you elaborate more on that strategy?
The example on the big HMO, that person became the Chief Automation Officer for United Healthcare. Okay, that was a pretty big promotion. Um, last year, one project I worked on with a Fortune 500 company, the use case that we solved was measurable, simple to measure, had a $5 million bottom-line impact, and the entire team now runs all AI transformation for the entire business, and they've hired a team of like 15 people. That's significant promotion, which is great. Um, that's kind of the idea there. My best relationship and success was Allstate.
I worked on it when I was with Mike, and we were back in the day, and a director of IT. And I ran a project to put 14,000 routers across their entire agent network to build the first area of WAN so they can send data. And, um, that guy retired last year as the Chief Information Officer for all of Allstate.
And when he retired, he flew me to Scotland and took me golfing for a week to thank me for my impact on his career.
So, do you tell them, "I'm here to get you promoted"? Do you mention that? Like, how does that come up in terms of understanding their personal motivations or even your intentions around helping them climb the organizational ladder?
We, yeah. I mean, it's not a first date conversation, probably. But, you know, as you're getting to know them, you know, I'm sure some people are not motivated to move up. Some people are very happy with what they're doing. But that's where you kind of know that change agent, right? You know, that person that wants to go above and beyond. And then that person generally guides you through the process. And, um, I mean, that's a simple version of it. And in today's world, I think there's a lot more power being wielded by that super technical dude or dude that's attending one of your events that wants to learn more. That person may be the person they're really asking for their insight. And you spend some time with them, make them successful, make sure that they have a plan. That'll bear a lot of fruit.
Yeah, I think the hardest thing that people, it's interesting, but like 90%, I would say 95% of sales success is mindset. And one of the mindset principles is, "I'm here to make you successful." And so when you're talking about outcome for the company, and selling outcomes, or you're talking about making people a hero, or getting them promoted, when you're talking about just the way you approach your customers, it's just the psychology of like, "This is for you, it's not for me." People are, yeah, people are at work just, I mean, they're there to make money to provide for their family. And we're lucky to have them as a customer. So, it's like, "Hey, why not make them happy and make them, you know, their career flourish?" If you do that, you're going to be the most referenceable salesperson in the history of the world.
And how many people do you have to talk to to find a change agent in general? Because you can talk, I mean, you're talking about big companies, there might be 50 or 100 executives there, VP and above, right? So, how do you, like, how do you think about that in terms of a numbers game within the same company to find the change?
Well, obviously, they self-select, and they're all over social media if they're really actively change agents. So, um, you know, I'm a voracious user of LinkedIn. I think I've, I connect, I taught my wife this. She just recently rejoined the workforce at Workday, and she connects to everybody before a meeting, anybody she meets, and it's just totally changed her trajectory. But, you know, just making sure that, making sure some people are telling you what they want to hear. You're asking feedback from others, but asking simple questions like, "What does great look like?" On the, some people, there's a framework that Sandler Sales has, right? And it's level one, two, and three gain, and level one, two, and three pain, right? Level three is personal, right? So, technical, business, personal. Well, why not get to the personal aspects of what they're trying to accomplish? If they're not willing to do that, then you don't have that trusting relationship.
I think that, I think it's, it's so simple, it's not easy. That's why I say it's all mindset, because you need to make it about them and not you. And so many people are operating from a scarcity mindset where they need the sale, they need the performance for their jobs, they're afraid. And those are the people that are actually fulfilling their own prophecy of failing because they're making it about them, which is the very thing that leads to failure. Um, but what you're talking about is abundance. You're talking about really understanding what success looks like to these people.
So, I'll give you guys a couple questions that I ask that you're referencing. Is, "What does good look like for you? If you were to fast forward a year from now and you could say, 'I had my best year in my career ever,' what would you have accomplished?" I love asking that question. "What does success look like for you?" And just fast forward. Just imagine. I look at them and say, "Just imagine a year from now, and you're so proud because you had your best year ever. What would you have accomplished?" And just shut up and let them share. That's a gain question. And the second one on top of that, you know, is when they start telling you what they need, I say, "Why is this important to you personally? Why is this important to you?" Simple level three question. But those two, "What does success look like to you?" It just gets them thinking about the future. And it activates a lot of excitement and possibility in their emotional system. And then you can go ask about the challenges and the problems and the pains, and they're going to be way more excited to share them. I'm curious to get your thoughts on that. Is that similar to what you do or how you phrase it?
Absolutely. Right. And, um, and then you have to be willing to ask, you know, a little more probing questions to get in there. But no, absolutely.
Well, what's stopping you? What are the risks? What are the challenges? Once they share the vision, right? It's easy to share what you want, but it's harder to share what's broken or what you're ashamed of. So, you start with the vision and say, "Okay, well, what's getting in the way?" So, it's pain and gain. The Sandler stuff. All this stuff is fundamentals. But right now, I feel like we're lacking on the fundamentals, the fundamentals of just having a conversation about someone else. You know, I don't know if you're seeing that too, but I feel like so many people are depending on AI and they don't know how to think for themselves or converse. Um, are you seeing that too, Bob?
Well, absolutely. And I think the key to anything is be as relevant as you possibly can to the person you're talking to in every interaction and be as responsive as possible. And if you do that, you're in the top 1% of all sellers. Right.
Right. And, um, you know, being relevant is the good thing about AI. And I'm in Service Now now, and we have it embedded into everything to where I can literally ask it, "Tell me how to talk to this customer about this." It pulls every customer. It's amazing. I mean, it does, it simplifies the conversation. But then I have to ask myself, "All right, does this resonate with them? How am I going to present it?" But it provides a lot of great context.
To that point, like learning about the customers, one of the things you said, you said, "I get to pick my customers. I don't want to sound arrogant, but I pick, literally handpick my customers." Can you just elaborate on that? Because I know it's not like I can have any account I want. I know that that's not what you mean, but you said it was the psychology of like, you get to choose who you work with. Maybe share some more.
Right. Unless you're a global account director with one account, right? If you have a territory, right? Then you get to say, "Get to pick your customers." As you're engaging with these customers, asking good qualifying questions as to why, you know, "Have you ever gotten something done like this before?" You know, I mean, just "Are these people over their skis?" Just kind of trying to help disqualify things so then you're not wasting your time with people that really are never going to do anything.
I think as a leader, you learn to teach that. I didn't know that as well as an individual contributor. I mean, I would take on any account, anywhere, any way. How? And then later on, I'm like, "Man, this is a really bad deal." Um, and cherishing your time and setting boundaries, right? If you have a system on how you want to live your life, you're not going to accept a bunch of lousy deals. So, you're the CEO of your territory. Where you spend your time is almost like investing your time in strategic stocks, and each of these things are going to turn out some level of return. And if the customer can't get to a decision in the timeline that you get paid, you have to shift your priorities into a different strategy with that client.
Makes a lot of sense. Um, back to the win rate, right? It's like, I get a lot of people that are competing now because there's more niche players, there's more optionality. But you're keeping a 90% win rate. So, let's say you get invited into an account that there's a bake-off going on, where there is competition, you haven't had necessarily the first access to do discovery or work with the executives, and they're really just evaluating the systems and tools. I'm curious how you keep a 90% win rate in those type of opportunities, or if you even participate when they're not really opening up or you're not really giving you the access that you need.
I think early on in my career, I would say things like, "We don't do POCs, like we're going to prove it," and you talk to our customers and all that other stuff. But, I mean, with the level of complexity and the speed that things are moving right now, people need to kind of see things. But I generally won't do a bake-off unless I understand exactly what the success criteria are and why. And if, you know, your competitor totally wrote the success criteria and stuff like that, then you need to be the challenger, right? You need to change the game.
Um, there is a cool book that I think is extremely relevant to sales. It's very old, and it's called The Art of War by Sun Tzu. So, I think in order to have a higher win rate, you have to decide where you're at in that attack, right? And most people take what's called a frontal approach, where you basically do what the customer says, and you win some deals and lose some deals, right?
And then you can change the game, you know, all those different things. But, you know, try to engage with the client with the correct tactic. And sometimes a delay tactic is the best to make sure you don't lose until your product has the functionality needed. But there's a correct tactic to take with every account that is interested, and you just need to then focus on the ones that are going to close when you need them to.
Yeah, it's interesting. The best books are often not sales books. And I think what you said is really important. It's like, get their success criteria, figure out what it is, and challenge them to think differently if they're thinking about it the wrong way. Right. We've seen more RFPs won because they backed out and said, "We can't participate because this isn't written for you to succeed. What you're asking for is actually not going to lead to the outcomes you want. Here's why." And those are the ones that said, "Okay, stop the RFP. We're working with you and you alone." We saw that a lot.
I had a scenario when I was very young in my career. I got an RFP on a Monday with Target, and it was due on Tuesday. I submitted a 100-page response thinking I got a shot, and they just said, "Send it over." I'm like, "No." They go, "What do you mean?" I go, "I've been working on it for 24 hours straight. You're sitting down with me." And I said, "You are getting in the room. I just did this." And I got the people that were whatever in a room, and I presented to it for an hour, and I got a solid no. And I'm like, "Okay, I figured a no was coming." Well, why are you saying no? And the reason they gave me was that, "We don't really view that you're a player in the market right now." I'm like, "We were the leader in the market." I called my CEO and I said, "Target doesn't think we're a player. You want to talk to the CIO?" They ran us through this project for no reason. We won the deal in about 90 days for $2.5 million a year.
So, you had the CEO engaged, and you offered that. You told...
I told my CEO to call the CIO of Target and get on the phone because they don't think we're a player. We have an issue with our brand at large retailers. This is critical.
So, what happened with the CIO? He's like, "Sure, I'll talk to your CEO." Like, what happened after that call? Just walk through how you went from no to yes in 90 days.
Bridget Bonner, brilliant woman. And she said, basically, "You're right. My team just picked the easy option because they were the incumbent. They didn't do a thorough evaluation." And we got an opportunity to explain how we were going to partner with them, and we won. We won the deal in, I think, about 90 days.
But you told the CIO, "Can I have my CEO call you because we are the leader, and there's a misconception here, and I want to clear it up for better or worse?"
You told... I might have had the CEO call her.
You didn't even tell the CIO that the CEO was going to call.
I don't remember, but it might have been more. No, I probably set it up with her. She was pretty... She was pretty good.
She was open to hearing more. It wasn't like contentious. She was direct. I think being direct is the superpower that you have, Bob.
I think she thought it was crazy, and it worked out.
You are a little nuts. So, we'll get into that in a minute. I think everyone who sells $1.2 billion has to be a little nuts. Um, we're going to transition to your personal story, but I want to ask before anything else. So, we are in a time of more disruption technologically than I've ever seen. And I don't say that lightly, right? And specifically, there's more optionality for customers than ever before. So, they could use the new AI niche product, they could build something in cloud code, they can use the traditional software's AI capabilities to amplify their core footprint. The number of choices customers have and the number of solutions that are available is creating this environment of like, "Oh, I don't want to do the wrong thing," and it's slowing a lot of the deals down, at least that I'm seeing in some of the clients I'm coaching. And I'm curious, number one, are you seeing this now too in terms of customer optionality? And if so, what can sellers do to stay relevant and stay ahead in the hyperspeed age of AI that we are living in right now?
That's a good question. But yeah, as I mentioned before, you know, being relevant, you're competing for time with every other vendor out there. So, how are you engaging with all the tools available? You should know everything about them, connect every dot, and have a very good story to tell, but with a very succinct value proposition, right? And, um, we did a thing last year at Microsoft where we actually, it was really educational. We did a Shark Tank concept, and just by saying out loud, "Mr. Customer, I'm going to ask you for $2 million for the following," you kind of learn if your stuff makes any logical sense for doing what, why, when, how, you know?
But one thing is, if you have a myriad of things to sell, sometimes if a customer wants a spoon, sell them a spoon and get in, and then land and expand. Don't make it more complex than it needs to be. Every deal is great. A new deal, expansion deal. Um, I think you have to prove out. Most of my big deals, or almost all of them, I proved out a few use cases to get them excited about what a new solution could offer them. And then I often do these things. Some people like to call them hackathons, some people call them ideation sessions. But if you get a group of people coming up with creative ideas and you stack rank them on business value, you got a whole deck of about $100 million of stuff you could do. You get agreed them to $10 million, and then you get them to invest in part of that. Sometimes they just have to see some level of success.
Why are you easier to work with? How are you going to reduce risk? Right? I mean, the same reasons people buy all the time. People generally will move, and what they say, seven times more likely to alleviate pain than buy gain. They don't believe the gain story anymore. So, you've got to fix something, and you've got to consolidate something, take, you know, whatever.
Um, I think there's a huge play in the consolidation aspect, especially with all the AI, because I'm, it's going to be very difficult for these organizations to stitch a lot of this stuff together. So, it'd be very relevant in helping them understand, you know, not just how you're going to sell it to them, but through the full deployment cycle and how you're going to ensure they're successful. That's kind of a key part of my joint success plan. It doesn't end at the contract. It ends at their success criteria. Maybe month three, we're going to have this done. I try to get them to think about like a five-year deployment roadmap sometimes to get them to commit upfront to a larger contract, so then we can bring a bigger partnership to them.
Yes. It's like you sell the vision, you sell the big picture, and then you phase it out with implementation and product stacking.
Yes. You get them, you can get them to commit to a large five-year contract or three-year, but you can actually ramp up the pricing as they consume more, but still get the commitment on the big vision, as long as they don't think they're paying for everything upfront and they don't have capacity to deploy it. So, that's why having a deployment schedule, having a success plan, having a partner come in and actually show them a roadmap and an implementation timeline is critical if you want to sell like Big Deal Bob.
What's interesting is I just joined Service Now. They mandate it with any deal that's over a certain size that you have a joint success plan in place with your customer, because we're not going to allow you to forecast it unless it's unless you have a detailed plan with your client. Brilliant.
There was a woman who came to my office hours, and she's telling me about a deal, and she's like, "What should I do? You know, is it real or not?" And I said, "What's the success plan? Have you brought in the partner yet?" She was selling Service Cloud, and I already knew the answer.
She inherited this deal as a new territory. I'm like, "If you don't even have a partner, and it's not real, like, how are they going to implement? You don't buy the software. You buy the outcome that it's delivered, and that's enabled through the implementation cycle and adoption and change management and resource allocation on both sides. So, these are the things you want to think about if you're in software, especially in the enterprise."
Let's talk back to the basics on that, right? So, you're looking at the total cost of ownership. When you're new in your career, you don't know what all that stuff means, and that's great, but it's like, what are all the different things you have to do to do this? And that's a great way of making sure that you're helping the customer streamline, consolidate, which makes your solution more valuable.
It's funny because every big hitter, every multi-millionaire seller making seven figures that I bring in, it's like they say the same thing, maybe a little differently, but you could teach our program because it's the same things we teach. So, thank you for reinforcing some of this.
I don't want to cut my hair that much.
I need one this week. I need multiple haircuts.
Going into your story a little more. So, you went from sales to leadership and now back to sales. I'm curious what made you leave leadership and go back to IC, because a lot of people, you know, are curious about the career path. And that's an interesting one because usually you go into leadership, you keep climbing, but you said, "No, no, maybe go back to sales." So, what happened there?
Yeah. Like, I think I got the most fulfillment out of developing my sellers and helping them, seeing how I was impacting their lives. But as a leader, I wasn't very present for my family. And being that I was at Salesforce and then Sprinkler, I mean, some pretty high-growing, high-growing companies, a couple pre-IPOs. I was pretty much, I was the go-to dinner every night with the client guy, like six nights a week, to where I was drinking too much. And I basically said to myself, "You know what? I need to slow down, focus on what's most important, and that's being present with my family. I need to work. I'm the only wage earner in my family, so I need to come up with a better plan because this approach is, you know, I'm not too happy with the outcomes right now."
How old were your kids now?
19, 17, 15.
So, this happened when your kids were 10, 12, and 14. So, it's like teenage years, and you're realizing, "Hey, like, maybe this is more important to be home and present."
Yeah. And part of it is wanting to be involved with their games and stuff. Also, I quit drinking and I went to rehab. I mentioned that to you because I said I'm not the best version of myself. I have a, it's in my family's history, and I just wanted to stop it. So, I did that, and I learned a lot about addiction and therapy and all that stuff. And I just, you know, just a values exercise is, "Am I living what's important to me or not?" And I wasn't. So, um, the some of the people that I've respected the most over my life are those senior sales execs that just get it, that have control of kind of their life a little bit more, that get to work on cool deals, and that have been amazing providers for their family and they have a lot less stress. So, I said, "I'm going to go do that." I also like doing, I like to go into a company and learn. If I can't sell it, I don't necessarily want to lead a team. So, I, I don't have an ego. So, I'm like, "I can make more selling it." So, I like to be in, I figure the more I'm in front of customers, the more I can control the outcome.
That's where I want to be.
We have a very similar path, Bob. I know we didn't talk about my path, but I was in sales 10 years, went into leadership for five of the years. I went back to be IC for the same reasons. I loved working with the customer, and I just felt, especially if you climb up and you're managing managers, you're more and more disconnected from the customers, from control, even from impact in frontline sellers. I love being a frontline manager, but then you're managing managers, and then it's like the front line, it changes. And so I advocate for everyone, like, if you love sales, don't go into leadership just because that's what you're supposed to do or you think it's a career path that you were told was good. Like, sales is a great living. If you can control your schedule, have a great income, have time with your family, like, what more could you ask for?
And I think why I made the transition to leadership wasn't because I had an ego and I just said I had to be a big shot. Um, but it was, I wasn't getting, I was closing big deals. Great. I was hitting my number. Great. It I wasn't very excited, so I wanted a little something more.
And that, you know, I needed a challenge. And after doing it for 10 years, I didn't need the challenge anymore.
Yeah. I only lasted five, and I was done. Although I do lead now, but it's very different leading a company.
So, talk about the downside of success. You said you drank too much, you traveled too much. You had a lot of financial success and a lot of leaderboard success, but these other aspects of your life were not, you weren't successful maybe at your home or your health with alcohol addiction. So, what are the downsides of this high performance that lead maybe to some of these other shadow behaviors or just, I don't know if it's ego. I'd love to get your take on some of why these high performers struggle so much with some of the, because I see it all the time, these great performers, but they're neglecting their families or they're struggling with secret addictions.
Sure. And everybody deals with different things in different ways. So, don't ever judge anybody, is what I always say. Um, but, um, now, now I lost my train of thought there.
Downside of success. Yeah. You have all the success. Why are they screwing it up in other ways?
Yeah. Some of these companies, companies I was in, they kind of groomed us to want that lifestyle. So, I mean, they took us to dinners. They explained us how to order wine. They actually, our first company, we had finishing school. I mean, they wanted us to live the lifestyle. They wanted us to have expensive cars, expensive watches. And with all of those things, if you're competitive, you get a dopamine hit for that, and that's pretty exciting.
So, I think what you do is you associate problem with sales is unfortunately one of your biggest metrics is how much you bring in the company, which then directly impacts how much you make. Right? So, you're kind of your brain's already kind of money-motivated. So, I just think that I probably made every wrong decision you could make with, "Hey, buy this at the wrong time, build a house you don't need, join three country clubs," anything I could possibly do to make myself feel better, because I was working so much but not around.
And I think, you know, what I ultimately did, that's why I relocated to Atlanta five years ago. One of the things they tell you sometimes if you go through a life change, they'll say, "You know, change jobs, change friends, and move." So, I kind of did all of it, and it worked out really well.
Yeah. Your environment, and it's amazing the impact it has. The people you surround yourself with, where you live, right? If you're in a party place, you're going to party. If you're not, if you're in...
A rural suburb and near Atlanta, it's a very different lifestyle. So, that's good on you.
Um, I think I think you're hitting something interesting which I I didn't even think about, but you're you're working so much and you're so stressed and you need a a justification of sorts for how exhausted you are. So, you go and you drink or you go and buy a bunch of stuff and feel better temporarily. I mean, that's that's what it feels like you're describing.
Yeah. Early on, I I was you say fake it till you make it. So, I always I wanted to have the nicest suit on or whatever. You still you get these habits, right? It's like, well, hey, if I get one chance to make a first impression, I might as well look it.
But it's like you never you never have enough, right? So once you find, once you find something really nice, then you realize, oh my goodness, there's something called Ferragamo. It's even nicer and then oh my good. It's just I that's just kind of it becomes a very empty thing. I think the chasing I posted about that today. It's like the chasing is constant. You could always have more. It's like you want to be Jeff Bezos and have a $5 million $500 million yacht and houses all like sure you can do all that but like when is enough enough? [snorts]
Also, I I've chased probably four different IPOs and unless you're a venture capitalist, you cannot time an IPO. You're not I mean just go work for somewhere where you like the people, like the product, and you can you can have fun. Those things most of the people that I know that have become uber wealthy through that, it's it wasn't it wasn't awesome. You know, there's just a lot of timing in that. So, focus on what you know, control what you can't control and don't hold yourself to that kind of standard. You see these things going on that you should have more or be more. That's irrelevant.
What helped me is I just kind of started as I got older and I stopped I stopped drinking when I was 46. I think my daughter was 11 at the time and she asked why I was talking funny and I just got back home from golfing and I said, "I probably shouldn't have been driving." I said, "I'm done." And um you know it it's uh it just it's something that that that really helped out and uh from then you know I haven't haven't really looked back.
So what um what have you learned since becoming sober? How have you changed since you've stopped drinking because now you have to sit with yourself and you have to you know feel whatever you're feeling because you don't have that medicine. You don't have that escape. So I'm curious how you've you've changed since becoming sober.
Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to be present. There's a book called uh I think Ed to the the power of now or something like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's like just, you know, hey, I'm just going to make this day. I'm not going to say one day at a time, but it's I'm gonna make this day the best day I can possibly make it.
Now, one thing I noticed, and a lot of sales people I've talked to over the years are very good in the moment, but sometimes don't plan out. So, one thing that's critical for me is I put a plan in place, you know, a detailed plan for the week, maybe a few weeks out, and then I'm I'm scheduling my own time and everything else in there. And I'm not just, you know, at the beck and call of anybody that can possibly, you know, that's something that was hard for me to do because I was just a I wanted to be there for whoever, especially if you have ADHD, you know.
Well, I think I think a lot I think a lot of those kind of end up. Well, no, for sure. I mean, this is like a godsend. The 12week year, any kind of time management system just to plan your week and have your calendar, it just gives so much more peace than having the chaos and clutter in your head. I know for me it does.
But but that and having a consist consistent routine. Uh what I learned over the years as your kids change in age, I mean, you got to be there for them. And if you're not getting your stuff done before they're up or whatever, you're probably not going to get it done. So I that's the things that work for me and focusing on my spirituality but just really what's important and then also having a number right I can retire here comfortably and maybe I can do this but now I'm just playing a game. I'm just playing this is a game and I get to control the outcome and I'm going to bet on myself and I'm going to play the game for as long as I want to play the game and it's it seems more fun that way.
Well because you're not attached.
You're not attached.
Yeah. In a way, if you're saying it's just if you're saying it's a game, there's a level of detachment in that in that mindset.
Yeah. I was watching a an interview with his professional golfer. Um he had mentioned that he like was playing just terrible until his coach benched him and he's a professional golfer now. And then he didn't care and it was his senior year and he won his last three tournaments.
I'm just saying I just I'm just saying if you don't think of this is a game. No one dies. It's a game, right?
The person who cares the least is the most likely to win. Doesn't mean you don't want to win. It just means you don't lose your identity if you lose. There's a golfer, Scotty Sheffller, who's been just double everyone. And he, you know, he says, "I want to win and I'm so competitive, but none of this matters." There's a famous club. He said, "Nothing matters. This is all a joke." Why? Because he has strong spiritual faith. And he said, "I already know I've won because I have faith." And so I think when you get sober and when you, you know, fall on your face and you realize your way is not necessarily helping anyone and certainly not helping yourself, that's when the surrender happens. It sounds like that happened to you in in some extent.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So, we're going to take some questions in two minutes. I'm going to leave my last question with you. Um, and you know, you don't have coping mechanisms anymore. There still is the pressure of big deals. I know you feel that, but you don't have the unhealthy coping mechanisms that you used to have with workcoholism and alcohol. I'm curious how you stay calm and how you deal with the pressure, stress, or even if maybe you feel it. I'm sure you feel it still even if you're not um, you know, if it's a game. I'm curious how you how you deal with the stress now. Have you replaced alcohol with something else to help you that's maybe more health healthy?
Yeah. Well, I mean, first off, I I eat extremely healthy because I know what you put in your body is important. Um, and um I I have practiced I've learned some mindfulness techniques. Uh I I like to do a consistent mix of yoga um and anything that that just um that just, you know, gets my my blood going. And then also what I learned is when I'm happiest, I'm getting to golf cuz it's it's part of my identity. I grew up doing it. So I've noticed that if I don't, you know, if I don't get to go out there and spend certain hours in the sun golfing, I don't have the energy to play the game anymore. So getting those things that are very important to you, doesn't matter what it is, but prioritize it because if you're not getting what's important to you, then it's not it's no you don't want to be playing the game.
And you only you only live once. You got to do what makes you happy. You can't just wait till you're because you don't tomorrow is not guaranteed. All right. So, I want everyone to just if you have questions, this is a unique opportunity to get coaching from uh from Bob and and um while you're thinking of your questions, just raise your hand, hit the hit the uh react button, and then I'm going to ask one last question and then we'll we'll uh open it up. If if this was your last talk, Bob, and you were talking to a room full of tech sellers, what would you want them to remember about building a sales career and a life that lasts and that is sustainable for the long term?
Yeah. Be extremely proud of what you do every day and how you're helping your customers. If you do that, then you're going to be successful. the more of your customers that are referencable on stage, whatever case studies, you're leaving a legacy.
And and you're helping those companies, I mean, maybe hopefully one of your CIOS takes you to Scotland. It was a really good trip. Uh I mean, it's you can change people's lives as long as you're doing it for the right reasons.
So simple and so profound. Be proud of what you do and how you help your customers. Otherwise, why are you in sales? I think it's a great place to to um to transition over to questions. Our first is from uh Jacob Pugsley. Go ahead, Jacob.
Hey, Bob. Thanks for thanks for everything. So, it's funny you mentioned change jobs, change friends, and move because I'm about to do all of that. So, what would you do? I guess if you had to go back, would you change anything on how you approached it and how you would make that experience better for your family? Uh family, faith, and work. So, how to be successful in all three during that transition?
Yeah. I I was also moving an 89 year old mother-in-law with me. So, I wasn't very popular, but um you know, you gota it's got to be a team team effort. What works best for your family? Why are you moving? Uh me moving to the south had a lot of implications. Was good for my mother-in-law and me for, you know, more more seasons of golf. But, uh you know, I would look at that. And then yeah, I don't know if if you guys talked about this, but like a a little simple value exercise. What's most important to you, right? Write them down and then stack rank them. It takes a few times to get it right and make sure you know what's important to your wife and if your kids are old enough to have a opinion and and do what's best for your family. That's what I would do.
I think the value exercise is interesting. We're going to be doing something like that at the upcoming mastermind because ultimately if you're living your values, you're going to be happy. If you're not living your values, you will be miserable. Period. If you want to simplify how to be happy and fulfilled, if your value is family and you're not spending time with family, there's your problem. If your value is health and you're not healthy, there's your problem. If your value is success and you're not working hard and actually focusing on your career, there's your problem. It's called the integrity gap, the the line between your values and your actions and behaviors. And I love that you bring that up because that's a big part of what I do in in a lot of the work that I um I teach. So, thank you for that.
It's the reason I left Salesforce. I wrote it down. I was getting on a train at 6:19 every morning, coming home at 9:30 p.m. My boss asked me to do the value exercise, and I started balling because I wasn't living any of them, so I quit.
Very, very powerful wisdom from uh. I don't know if that was his goal, but he went to Ohio State.
Are you knocking Mike right now? [laughter] Party culture. All right, Amber. Next question. Uh Bob, this has been so fun. I just can't like the similarities between the two of you. Like your names are basically the same, but one letter is upside down.
He's better dressed, that's for sure.
That's what's so fascinating to me, Bob. You like your presence, your pocket square, your fantastic background. Like everything about you just like like. This is my fire for the fireside chat.
It's so beautiful. It's so like you're like it just feels like billionaire Bob. And the thing that strikes me the most is how humble you are. Like the humility that you have, the generosity that you have, the the service attitude that you have is so striking to me. I'm curious if you have like a mantra or if that's something that you've built or if that's something that you just naturally do and who you are.
It's probably my mantra is not something I share because it's not appropriate. But uh no, I I I I kind of grew up in a not the nicest area in Ohio and and I was just told to be, you know, treat people the way you want to be treated and and that's just what I do. I I have a ser servant leadership type of mindset. I get taken advantage of a lot for candidly. Uh so learning to say no is helpful, but some people think you're disingenuous when you want to help. But I appreciate that humble answer, Bob.
My Now you have to tell me offline what your mantra is, and you [laughter] say it's inappropriate. Now the heck, how can you say? Anyway, offline you could tell me. Um, Mike.
I'll just say in the late 90s I worked in the same office with Bob and I remember going home uh about 8:00 at night seeing Bob printing paper and proposals and had stacks on the floor all around him. And I'm like, "Bob, what are you doing?" He's like, "I'm working on this proposal." And I come back the next day and Bob is still there. And so I have seen Bob in the workaholic mode. I've seen him so competitive. I've seen him so focused on winning the deals and and he's taken that competitiveness to his life into [snorts] like being authentic and being competitive by like being the best version of himself now. So, I love that transition that you can channel competitiveness. It doesn't have to be about only about closing deals. You can be like, how can I live the most authentic powerful life?
Um so that's just one comment just you know 30 plus years ago seeing seeing Bob the workaholic to who he is now is quite a transformation. Um, quick [clears throat] question. You've worked at big companies, Microsoft, Salesforce. Now you're at Service Now. You know, it's sort of easier to get to an executive when you have a big brand like that. But you also worked at Sprinkler wasn't huge at the time. UiPath and definitely IP pass back in the day, but consistently you were able to get to executives. How do you get the meetings? What strategies seem to work? We talk a lot about having the right message and the right metrics, but let's face it, it's not easy to get to book a meeting with an executive if you don't have the big brand behind you.
Yeah. Absolutely. And you're saying an executive at a a C level at a big company?
Big company.
Yeah.
Yeah. I I mean, you have you have to connect all the dots and be be extremely relevant. And um generally, you're going to have someone I don't think you first call the company. generally to the CEO, right? So, you're going to have to you're going to have somebody help uh you navigate to that session. If not, you you play the you [snorts] play the um the EA strategic EA card and you you work that way. One thing I did at UiPath because no one knew who we were is I I would create a what I call a BFC, a big fat claim and make a nice little like glossy I wouldn't call it a like a proactive proposal but this is what's possible and I FedEx it with a handwritten letter to the CEO, CFO, everybody on the like executive leadership team same day and then make sure the EAS know it's coming right and doesn't cost much. And what do what do they talk about in the next staff meeting? This guy just sent me he sent that to you, too. He says we can save $50 million. Who's meeting with him? Works. I mean, just go big. Um, but enough has it's called a blitz creek. It's a multifrontal attack. You a lot of times having multiple things in motion at the same time is the only way to get that excitement. Obviously, not giving up, but being very relevant, you know, meeting them where they are. if they're at an event. Um, I I had the I was we were working on a deal with Salesforce for Airwatch in Atlanta. I found out that the CEO, who was the founder of Manhattan Associates, was in Chicago. I called his EA and said, "I'd like him to come over to the office. We have a new office for Salesforce. He had no idea why, but I got I talked her into run having him come over." So, I got 20 minutes with them. I mean, I don't know. Be creative. They've heard everything before, right? So be real creative.
I love it, Bob. I love it. It's just be bold and go direct. It comes down to being fearless and having courage. That's why I say it's mindset because who does that? Who actually FedExes to the entire seauite with a bold claim, a bold person. So if you want to have big results, you need to be bold in how you show up. And you are you are definitely billionaire Bob with how you show up. Even if [laughter]
I like that name better. I I wish I would have understand what all the financial stuff meant earlier in my career. I didn't go through and get an MBA. So, the more you can understand what that stuff actually means and how your projects impacting IB and stuff, then you're relevant because if you can't have a conversation with the CFO and CFO speak, you're not getting that conversation.
Yeah. And the tools now are so good. Jamal came and spoke to the group and he's got wiser for that. They just launched a global for private. I mean, that lit literally lays it out for you even if you don't speak finance. So, there's no excuse anymore for not. You have to be resourceful and and want to be learning to be able to be relevant in the first place. And that again comes back to mindset. Um, do you have time for one more question, Bob? I know we're right at the top of the hour. Cool. Last question we'll take is uh Sarah Hellstrom. Go ahead, Sarah.
Hi, Billionaire Bob. Thank you so much for this conversation. Um, I can tell that we're all really benefiting from it. And um, the question that I have for you, you had actually touched on um, the unpredictability of IPOs and I couldn't agree more. Many of us work at startups and we like that environment and want to continue pursuing working in startups. I was wondering if you might coach us or what your thoughts are on how we should think about equity when we get to the offer stage and just kind of any advice you have at that at that point.
I look at equity as gravy. So, you know, if you go to work for a company that's that's already public, you may get a teeny bit of equity, but it's it's it's just less risk and reward, right? So, if you can't take care of your family, this is where I aired. This is my number one air on the job and what the job pays without the equity and get to where your goals are, then you're going to do unnatural things to it just you can't control that. I I was at a company that IPOed at $40 billion and and is at six billion right now. I mean, I didn't control that. So, I just I look at equity as as gravy. It's like it's almost like a 401k. You don't touch that. It it may happen, it may not. Um now, there are different levels of equity where but um that that's my that's that's my advice on it.
Unbelievable, Bob. Um, I uh I'm excited. I know you're going to get a lot of um you you're going to open the floodgates. You're going to get a lot of people reaching out and watching this and if they want to get a hold of you and and um what's the best way or connect or follow, what's the best way to to reach you if anyone has questions or follow up and don't give your email or phone number, but where where can people go to?
Well, I had a situation Mike Mike had Mike's uh working with a fellow that uh he would like some advice. We chatted. He's uh he's in the queue at service now for two different roles.
It was right for him. So, I'm I'm happy to help wherever I.
He's on the call now.
That's me. Yeah. Thank you, Bob.
I think it's moving towards one, right? Yeah. But hey,
I'm actually I got a uh an offer pending offer coming by Monday. So, thank you again.
Let's go, baby.
That gives me way more excitement than winning a $5 million deal. That that helps his family. winning in a $5 million deal doesn't really I mean other than anything but it does it does get you your next watch. So that's always good or your next swoop.
Uh so what's the best place if people do want to do you have a LinkedIn or a website or anything?
Yeah, my my LinkedIn's pretty pretty active.
So Bob Koviaak on LinkedIn. Just look him up. He's at service now. and uh reach out if uh if you have questions or just share share how this uh interview helped you in your role. This is what elite sales looks like. This is what it takes. You can't make a million dollars or sell a billion dollars if you're not willing to do the things that that requires. And you just heard the exact playbook of what's required. So Bob, thank you for coming on and and sharing so openly. Congrats on your sobriety. What what makes me the happiest is is the changes that you've made. It's also showing it's never too late to focus on what matters most and to improve your health and and really be the person that you're proud of. So, congrats on that front in addition to your sales success.
Well, when you said seven years, I mentioned you six and a half, but just as a you know, God works in mysterious ways, but my first day joining a company, I was sober and they took me to a place called the Bourbon Library in Manhattan. So, I I I had a mistake there. And that mistake lasted me about six months. So, uh don't give in if you're having a problem. You know, it I had never said to somebody yet, I don't drink. And I didn't know how to do it. I wasn't prepared. Right. So, you got to prepare for those moments if you're having any any challenge.
No. I think um the stigma around recovery is is gone. I think a lot of people more than ever are wanting to be sober and they just don't get served by alcohol, no pun intended, or or anything for that matter, phone addiction, drugs, porn, like there's a renaissance of people who want to be present and want to be healthy. And I think that you're um by talking about it publicly, you're you're doing a lot of good goodwill even for that person that is in that same boat you were in. So, thank you for being open with your story.
Hey, no problem. All right, everyone. Until next time. Thank you guys so much. See you soon. Bye-bye. See you.