Transcription
Good evening and welcome to a special edition of the world live from New York. I'm Yaalda Hakeim. We'll spend tonight's program gaining a window into Donald Trump's world from someone who knows it inside out, Tucker Carlson.
Over the past decade, the conservative political commentator became one of the most influential figures in the MAGA movement, helping to popularize the America first agenda. But he's since fallen out with the president he once championed, saying Trump broke a fundamental promise when he dragged America into war with Iran. And he believes it'll destroy not only Trump's presidency, but MAGA as well.
"Do you think this war is the beginning of the end of Donald Trump?"
"Of course it's the end. Of course. Of course it's the end. And he and I said this to him in February. I said what he already knew."
Tucker Carlson also uh offered me his contentious views on the war in Gaza. We debated the influence that Elon Musk seeks over UK politics and I pressed Carlson on his own presidential ambitions. But we'll begin with Iran. I sat down with Tucker Carlson shortly after the US and Iran signed their memorandum of understanding or interim agreement. Have a listen.
"Well, I'm amazed by the new treaty at Versailles that was signed yesterday. I'm just amazed by it. In fact, when I first saw it, I thought it was fake. There's so much lying going on um as there is in any war, but particularly this one that I just didn't believe it could be true um for a bunch of different reasons. It's a obviously it's a admission of failure of defeat um of the United States by Iran, which is the world's 34th largest economy. So it's just a remarkable admission, but it so it signifies a a movement of power from one sphere to another. But it also signifies a profound and I think permanent change in the relationship between the United States and Israel, which is something that I was never that interested in, but the last couple of years, and particularly since this war began in February, has been the focus of my attention because it's been the defining fact of America. And I think with this that changes in ways that are, you know, very hard to predict, but the outlines are pretty obvious. Like there's no going back to where we were after this for a bunch of different reasons. And after the president made a series of statements which were just shocking to me, hilarious because they're true, but amazing. I mean, the president of the United States stood up, I think, in Europe at the G7 two days ago and said, 'You know what? I like BB. Nice guy. good partner, you know, the caveats, but um what he's doing in Lebanon is just brutal. It's just brutal. Blowing up apartment buildings because of drones, I mean, come on. I don't think it's all Netanyahu at all. But I think someone like Ben Gavir or Smootrich or, you know, a number of different cabinet ministers are, you know, of course, bloodthirsty, but don't consider non-Israeli lives fully human. I mean, it's obvious by what they say. They've said that and their laws now reflect it within the state. I grieve over that as someone who's liked Israel for a long time and been there a lot and has a number of Israeli friends who are totally reasonable, decent, good people. I I grieve over what's happened to that country. But it's um it's a stain on the conscience of the world. And so when Trump says that, he's absolutely right. And I want to talk to you about Gaza, Lebanon, you know, go into more detail on these issues, but you've said a couple of things there that that I want to sort of talk about a little bit more. You said that um you know, this >> the idea that Donald Trump four months ago went into a war partnering with Benjamin Netanyahu and he's now criticizing him in the way that he is. Why do you think and how do you think this evolution happened over the course of the last >>"
"Well, I don't I mean it's something that I've really meditated on for the past 110 days since it started. Um because I was so close to the process. I mean, I was talking to Trump all the time. I was in Washington three times in the last month talking to Trump about this trying to argue against uh a regime change effort in Iran because I thought it'd be terrible for the United. I thought it'd be the end of American empire. I thought the United States would wind up retreating for the Middle East. And those may be good things, by the way. I don't you know who knows but I thought that it would be terrible for the dollar and I thought Americans would die and I told him all of those things and he knew that those were risks realistic risks and he did it anyway so I don't know why there were no advis maybe Rubio secretly but there were certainly no advisers loudly encouraging this around him I don't think Dan Kane chairman of the joint chiefs I don't think so so like why did he do this and I I have a number of theories I don't know if they're true so I I won't bore you with them but Um he was certainly following the lead of Israel as he said I think Trump was sincerely he allowed himself to convince himself that killing the Ayatollah the head of Shia Islam would somehow collapse the country ra I various intel agencies told him that wasn't true the Israelis told him it was true when a couple of days in it turned out to be totally false I think he was enraged he knew he was trapped he knew that the American economy was at stake the global economy was at stake and Um I think he immediately blamed Netanyahu for it."
"Do you think then ultimately the last 4 months has made the United States weaker?"
"Much weaker of course much weaker. Now I my view and this is a view that I have come to in the last couple of years just from traveling a lot. Um and it's an evolving view so who knows how I'll feel when the facts come in a year from now. But I think we had an unsustainable empire that was not serving the interests of the republic, the country itself. And it cost too much. I think it degraded our politics. I think it sucked up the attention of our leaders much more interested in defeating Islamic jihad than in ending homelessness. Like that's a misalignment of goals and values. Like that that can't continue."
"But you spent a lot of time telling him this stuff."
"But so but my point is like why did it fall to me? what you know what I mean like there are people paid to give this advice but I watched and there are some good people there for sure um some smart well-meaning people but there weren't a ton of people who were willing to march in there and say this is nuts man this is nuts and you're being sold a story that's not true and I not hate against Israel like I understand they've got a different perspective from ours they have different goals from ours because they're a different country but if you follow this path you will be entrapped this is a trap. I did tell him that he didn't like it at all, but it it was true. And it wasn't just true, it was obviously true."
"Well, the person who did make the case was Benjamin Netanyahu. And he, you know, advocated for this, but he hasn't advocated just to Donald Trump for 25 years, for 30 years. He's been advocating to president after president. I mean, why Trump?"
"You're absolutely right. The core premise of your question is is undeniable. Many presidents have faced this pressure. only Trump caved. That's just a fact. So I, as I said, I don't know why. There are I mean, >> he wasn't hypnotized. He just swallowed it. >>"
"He may have been hypnotized. That's real. People are absolutely hypnotized. I know a lot of people have been hypnotized. I have been hypnotized. I mean, of course, people are hypnotized all the time."
"But but on an issue, >> what do you think love is? [laughter] But but on an issue like this, >> of course, we're all hypnotized from time to time. Words have power. Words change reality. >>"
"But this is a president who >> we hypnotize ourselves all the time. >>"
"But but you you supported him so many likes. >> I didn't just support him. I campaigned for him. >>"
"I mean, I was, by the way, and we'll talk about this. I was at the RNC when you spoke. No way. >> I was. And you spoke and, you know, you were convincing and compelling. I had no doubt I meant it. >>"
"But but you know for to come out to campaign for him to support him in the way that you did and then for him to campaign on a no war no forever wars and for it to to end up like this. >> No one was as shocked as I was. >>"
"Yeah. >> So my calcul first of all I would just say is I try to force myself to say always I I was wrong. I've been wrong about a lot of other things including the Iraq war. So I am capable of being not just wrong, but very embarrassingly wrong. So that that's just a fact. Why was I wrong? It's not like I didn't know Trump had flaws. I know Trump intimate intimately. I know Trump really really well and I've always liked him. But I know what he's like. And so I was eyes wide open in some ways. But my calculation was and it seemed obvious that if I mean from my perspective what the country needs is a choice and the Republican party and the Democratic party are identical in their core assumptions about the economy and foreign policy which is what matters. And I thought Trump was an option. >>"
"Are you talking to Trump at the moment?"
"No. >> You haven't spoken to him since? >>"
"I'm not. February 28th. I spoke to him the 27th. I haven't talked to him since. I don't hate him. I feel sorry for him. What he did is a catastrophe. he knew it would be. He did it anyway. So the question is why?"
"I want to quote you because you you say the war in Iran has taught us that the people you elect aren't even in charge. Someone else is. In this case, Benjamin Netanyahu. >>"
"What are the long-term effects of a population understanding that voting doesn't make a difference? >>"
"Exactly. >> I mean, I I guess >> scary. >>"
"But I ask because Donald Trump has stopped this war now. And Benjamin Netanyahu, you have said in this interview, this is a dangerous moment for Israel >> big time. >> Benjamin Netanyahu is concerned. He has said, 'This is not my deal. This is not my ceasefire. I reserve the right to defy it if I if I need to.' >>"
"But that is Donald Trump in charge. Right. >>"
"I don't know if it's Trump in charge. I mean, he's certainly taking a different course than he did 110 days ago, for sure. Radically different. and he's blaming his failures on Netanyahu, which is predictable um and well-deserved. Like, I'm not mad about it, and I think Netanyahu is obviously a criminal, and I don't feel sympathy for him after all the innocents he's murdered, but I I do feel sympathy for Israel just because there are a lot of nice people in Israel, and they don't deserve this. Nobody deserves this. And and as and as I said, I I think this is I want to be honest enough to admit I think this is a very an actually threatening, not a fake theatrical threatening, but actually threatening moment for Israel. So I feel bad about that. But all I know is what I saw. Trump was not enthusiastic about doing this. He knew the risks. He thought the risks were real. He told me that and he did it anyway. And he did it against the advice of his own intelligence agencies and against the the wishes and maybe in some mild cases the advice of his own adviserss. So why did he do that? At whose behest did he do that? He wasn't enthusiastic about it. He'd said for 10 years he wasn't going to do it. He thought it was a bad idea. He campaigned against regime change wars in the Middle East a lot. Not just parathetically, but it was a central position. And it, as so far as I could tell, having talked to him about it many, many, many times, I think it was heartfelt. >>"
"And I guess another US president dragged into a war in the Middle East that they say they either didn't want to start or or move away from. I mean, for me, it's, you know, quite personal what happened in Afghanistan with Joe Biden and the way that they the shambolic way that they withdrew >> and and that for me was a defining moment for Joe Biden's presidency. It felt like the beginning of of the end of his presidency. Do you think this war is the beginning of the end of of Donald Trump? >>"
"Of course it's the end. Of course. Of course it's the end. And he and I said this to him in February. I said what he already knew. >>"
"But do you think the the lines are being drawn right now because we're seeing a lot of the vice president now coming out defending this deal. He said fundamentally it was worth it. That's what he said yesterday or the day before to Megan Kelly. And >>"
"What was worth it? The deal. >>"
"The the the war. the deal. It was worth it. >>"
"Well, what are you going to say? It wasn't worth it. [laughter] All these Americans died. It cost us tens, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars and will cost more going forward. So, like it it's a tough pill to say it was it wasn't worth it. I mean, this was all pointless. Like, no one wants to hear that. No one wants to say that. No one wants to believe that. So, I I certainly give him a pass on that. But no, JD, I think the vice president has been um very clear about his views. I don't think there's any world in which president JD Vance would have done this. You literally no chance of that, I think. But he's the vice president. So, one of his jobs is to support the president. And he's done, I think, a very good a very good job of that. It's tough. Who'd want that assignment? Uh but from what I know of JD Vance and I know JD Vance um was a really decent man. I will just say that and I I know that to be true. His view is rather than you know throwing up your hands and saying I can't deal with this. I'm out. You violated my principles. His view is if you're in a position of authority you do your best to make the best of a bad situation. And he has done that. That's Tucker Carlson and we'll come back to more of that interview in a moment, but let's just bring in our US correspondent David Blevens. David, uh, good to see you. We're just listening there to Tucker Carlson describing this deal as a failed deal, capitulation, surrender. Obviously, the White House is is not saying that that's what this deal is. Yeah, obviously Yela, there are many people who believe Tucker Carlson has an agenda, but in your interview with him, I think he doesn't just come across as angry, but genuinely disappointed in President Trump, a man in in whom he expressed so much much faith. But his suggestion that the war in Iran was a catastrophe and marks the end of the Trump presidency and the end of MAGA, I think, ignores several uh important factors. Firstly, that the political coalition around Donald Trump has endured worse shocks. The outcome of the 2020 election, for example, the January 6th raid on the capital, all of those criminal indictments and and and also the civil judgments. I think it's also worth remembering that while many Republicans did vote for Donald Trump on that campaign pledge not to bring them back into a foreign war, they do distinguish between a short-term military intervention. And remember, that's what they have repeatedly been told this is, and another Iraq, if we can put it um like that. To them, the outcome of all of this m matters much more than the decision taken to go to war or to go into a military intervention in the first place. And they now have this 14point memorandum of understanding that despite what other people think of it, they're being told illustrates that America has met its various objectives. And I think there are another couple of things worth thinking about as well. The Republican base tends to be more hawkish than Tucker Carlson's audience. They are open to the idea of military intervention when it is framed as preventing Iran from having a nuclear weapon. And then MAGA, well, MAGA is bigger than just foreign policy. You and I know that. Think about the trade wars. Think about the immigration issue. Think about the culture wars. And I think when you bring all of those factors into play, Tucker Carlson maybe just a little premature in suggesting that the Iran war signals the end of the Trump presidency. And David, the uh Trump administration has about 60 days uh before the nuclear talks begin. And those 60 days will be crucial and there are concerns that perhaps the United States might get dragged back into this war. Something that I discussed uh with Tucker Carlson as well. Is that something that Donald Trump's base or even wider than that, Americans in general are worried about? Well, it's really interesting, Yaldo. We will hear again from the president this evening. The first event marking the 250th anniversary of America. We heard from him last night in the battleground state of Pennsylvania. And I expected to hear him say much more about Iran. He didn't really talk about the issue. He simply said they're never going to have a nuclear weapon. And to me that suggests that he knows that this is just parked right now rather than over because they might claim in the memorandum of understanding that they have dealt with the issue of Iran's nuclear capability. But as you point out all the only thing they have agreed is that they are going to talk for another 60 days in an attempt to find an agreement and we're getting a completely different version of that memorandum of understanding from Iran. And therefore, I think the base know that Donald Trump is trying to bring this to an end. They probably recognize that he needs to find that off-ramp because that's the only way we're going to see petrol prices come down and grocery prices come down and those things are really going to matter now that we are just months away from the midterm elections. >>"
"David, I'm going to keep you there for the moment and we're going to take our viewers to the next part of this interview on Gaza. Tucker Carlson's strident condemnation of Israel's [music] conduct in the war has made him enemies on the left and the right of the political spectrum. But it's significant for such a prominent conservative to take this stance. I asked him about the United States's responsibility for what's happened in Gaza. Have a listen."
"It's profound. The last administration, this administration, both of them allowed this, paid for it, ran cover for it. Israel has been criticized throughout Europe, throughout the world really for its behavior fairly. And the United States has attacked any country and any international body including the United Nations who stands up and says, 'Well, what is this? This is a genocide and we attack them.' No, no. We've made this po the United States made this possible. And that's one of the reasons that the idea that like criticizing Israel's behavior is anti-semitism is like insane. I'm not playing along with it. um that that actually that position creates anti-semitism which I oppose but it's also like the truth is and I just said I'll say it again this is largely the fault big picture of the US government the US government has paid for this and allowed it encouraged it for generations and we should not be surprised that the end result is genocide we shouldn't be surprised like this has been coming for a long time Israel has completely changed I feel sorry for Israel. But the Israel that I first visited decades ago bears no resemblance to modern Israel."
"Is the United States complicit?"
"Of course, we paid for it. We made excuses for it. We made it possible. And there are weapons. Obviously, of course, we're complicit. That's one of the reasons I'm upset by it. That's my country. These are my tax dollars. This is my reputation. This is the moral authority of the nation that my ancestors built. So, yes, I feel very implicated in this and enraged by it. and not primarily at enraged at the Israelis who I think are are delusional for a bunch of different reasons. I don't think that's is an Israeli specific phenomenon. We felt a little bit of that after 9/11 when people bought the lies about there were many lies about 911 but the net result was to convince Americans that they were under siege from global Islam that there were a billion people trying to kill them. I felt this way myself and many times I said on television, 'The problem is Islam. The problem is Muslims.' Like, they all want to kill us. They're all crazy. They're all in this lunatic suicide cult created by Muhammad in the 7th century. And I believe that. I I was hysterical. I believed that. No, that's not true. Nothing about that is true, but I believed it. So, it's a little harder for me to judge Israelis when they're like, 'Every Arab Christian or Muslim, it doesn't matter. Arabs are by definition committed to the extermination of Jews and we must kill them before they kill us. Like they believe that. I think people are capable, I know because I have felt it myself, are capable of believing things like that, but they're deranged. And when you do believe something like that, what you need is a clear-thinking adult to correct you, just as your children need it when they go crazy, which they do. And your job as the parents be like, 'Nope, that's actually not real. Settle down. There are universal standards that apply to everybody. Some people are bad. Some people are good. That's true of all people, including you. So, settle down. I've had this talk with my own children. I'm sure you have, too. And we shared that talk with Israel, but we we haven't because of blackmail and threats and weakness. There are a lot of reasons why Israel has been able to control the United States for decades. But it almost doesn't matter what they are. It's ending. And I hope that we can restore. I mean, I hope that the people responsible for the genocide in the US and Israel are punished. They will be. I'm confident of that. After that, I think I hope that we can have a normal relationship with Israel. You know, an allied relationship with Israel, a happy, normal, healthy relationship with Israel, not a master slave relationship with Israel. That doesn't work. I >>"
"I mean, this is all very bleak. >>"
"It's not bleak. It's good. It's good. These No, no, it's good. Look, crimes will be punished in this life or the next. But the one thing we know is that justice exists. It's it's a it's a physical it's a natural reality. that we have no control over. When you do something, all is revealed in the end. Period. And so the people responsible for killing innocents will be punished for that as they should be. >>"
"You've spoken about justice and punishment and those who have either been complicit or funded the situation, the war in Gaza. Does that include, you know, seeing Joe Biden punished, Donald Trump punished? >>"
"Of course. Of course. And you know punishment I you know there's no >> wait >> well there'd be no formal punishment for the leaders of anything in the United States because our leaders are exempt from punishment formally. I mean you mentioned the Afghan withdrawal. The only person punished for that debacle was Stu Sheller who was a Marine colonel who complained about it and they put him in jail for complaining about it. But the people who planned it and executed it and resulted in the deaths of dozen Americans and God knows how many Afghans, they were rewarded for it. So like our system is broken in the most basic sense. People who tell the truth are punished. People who lie and kill are rewarded. >>"
"I wonder Tucker where this leaves the future of the MAGA movement. [laughter] >>"
"I mean >> the future of the MAGA Well, that's over. Um there's no future of the MAGA movement. Obviously we're done. Um >>"
"This war caused the end. >>"
"Yeah, it doesn't. I mean, what is the MAGA movement? Trump has defined it as whatever he wants. Well, that's not a movement. That's a tick. That's a preference. It's like, what do I feel like having for breakfast this morning? Well, today it's, you know, the pancake movement. It'll be eggs benedict movement tomorrow. Like, it's not a movement, you know. It's just like a it's a desire. >>"
"But you believed in it. >>"
"Well, I never understood what it was. No, I never believed in MAGA. I believe in making America great again. I certainly believe in its literal definition, but its operational definition was never clear. What I believe in is putting your country first. If you're leading your country, of course, its concerns are at the top of your list of concerns. In the same way that your children's concerns are more important, your children's needs are more important to you as a parent than your neighbors kids' needs and concerns. You're the parent. That's nature. Again, that's just natural. There's nothing crazy or fascistic about that. In fact, any other form of government is crazy and fascistic. Every other form of government is tyranny. That's the only legitimate form of government where the leaders put not to the exclusion of everyone else's concerns. Like you don't have to hate your neighbor's kids to love your own. You can love all kids. But if it comes down to it, you put your kids first cuz you're their parent. And that same worldview has to be the way the US government operates in order to be legitimate. And that's what America first means. And so I will never stop believing that. I think every other American believes that, too. the phrase America first scares people because it's like Nazi or something but like in real life there's no other way to run a government and I still believe that and this war was a bet, you know, the most obvious betrayal of that. We didn't go to war to protect our own interest. We went to war to serve Israel's interests. They've said that out loud. So this is not a conspiracy theory. That's contemptable. That's wrong. >>"
"Let's go back to our David Levitz who joins me live from Washington. And David, we were hearing there from Tucker Carlson talking about the responsibility of the US president when it came to the war uh in Iran. And then of course the responsibility that the United States needs to take uh in its role in Gaza. I asked him there whether the United States is complicit and he said yes. I wonder how the the White House would react to that. I think the administration would argue that Israel acts alone and they would point to recent spats yalda between President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu. Not very long ago, uh Trump described Netanyahu as effing crazy, for example, for continuing to bomb southern Lebanon while he was trying to negotiate a deal with Iran. And just last week, we had Vice President Vance in the briefing room at the White House very publicly rebuking the Israeli cabinet. That's unheard of from a US administration Republic in our Democrat. He effectively said to them, 'You shouldn't criticize Trump's deal with Iran because we're the only ally you have in the world right now.' Now I think they would also argue that support from the US for an ally whether that is in military aid or intelligence sharing or diplomatic cover whatever whatever it happens to be does not amount to an endorsement of every action by that ally and then I think also they would argue that despite the fact that there are many people around the world who would believe that Israel's occupation of Gaza has gone way beyond international war crimes or disproportionate use of force. it has not been adjudicated a genocide by an international court. And then I think it's worth also adding the strategic argument that the administration makes that they only got involved in this because they wanted to bring the war in Gaza to an end and to see the Israeli hostages come home and to a very large extent President Trump did achieve that. >>"
"David, thank you so much for joining us. Now, let's go to Jason Zenlay, a political reporter at the New Yorker who's written about Tucker Carlson. Thank you, Jason, for joining us here on the program. I spent over an hour talking uh with Tucker Carlson. And you know, I could see even within the interview his evolution ideologically. This is something you've documented, you've tracked over many years. You've written a book about it. Just talk me through that. uh you know how he sort of went from this preppy conservative Bush Reagan conservative to to what he became in terms of being so vocal within the MAGA movement and now a massive critic of the president. >>"
"Well, you know, he did he started out on the neoconservative right when he wrote for a magazine called the Weekly Standard and as he said in your interview, he was a supporter of the Iraq war. Um but when the Iraq war went bad, he was really one of the first prominent conservative supporters of the war to disavow his support. You know, it was about nine months in and he said it was a terrible mistake and he regretted supporting it and he had had private doubts that he'd pushed aside and it was a huge regret that he had. But in addition to announcing his support or his lack of support for the war, he actually really started to re-evaluate kind of his own views. And it led him down this road that you know we've seen for probably the past 20 years or so where he became a critic of interventionist foreign policy, became a critic of free trade deals. He became a critic of um more immigration. He really started to follow the the views of Pap Buchanan. And that eventually led him to being open to someone like Donald Trump. Um, and when Donald Trump came into the off came into office the first time, Tucker was then at Fox News and he he was supportive of Trump's policies. He wasn't necessarily supportive of Trump the person and he actually kind of kept a little bit of distance from Trump personally, but he was very supportive of Trump's policies. And when he thought Trump was kind of, you know, wavering on policies that Tucker himself believed in, he would he would be willing to criticize Trump, including um, you know, when when Trump attacked uh, Iran um, during his first term um, with some missile strikes. Tucker was very critical of that. The the thing that's different this time is when Trump ran for president the second time, Tucker threw in with him entirely. Like he mentioned in your interview, he campaigned for him. He spoke at the RNC. And he really identified himself with Trump. And and the thing I think that he most identified himself with Trump is this idea about America first foreign policy, non-interventionism. So the fact that Trump has now gone to war in Iran for Tucker is, you know, the ultimate betrayal. And that's that's led him to this position now where he's denouncing Trump, where he's saying he's not going to be a Republican anymore, Republican anymore. That's that's kind of the journey that he's been on. >>"
"Yeah. And and we saw that even within the interview where he talks about where he was 20 years ago at Fox, where he was a few months ago even, you know, a strided sort of supporter of Donald Trump and and where he is today. That relationship with Donald Trump is incredibly complicated. We've seen that through text messages that were leaked uh during his first presidency where he sort of openly talks about his disdain for for uh Donald Trump and then the huge amount of support he's given Trump over the course of the last few years. Do you think that that relationship is likely to be repaired given, you know, that both the two men are also quite pragmatic? >>"
"Yes. I think that's a that's a nice term for it. Um you're never you're never fully out of of Trump world. I mean, you're you can always be welcomed back in, especially if you, you know, submit, which is what Tucker did to get back in after the first falling out after January 6th. Um, you know, Tucker says that he was, you know, he feel he's disappointed in Trump and he's he's he's sad that this has happened, but, you know, he's always been very cleareyed about Trump and he he knew what he was getting himself into this time. He made, I think, you know, a cynical bargain to um attach himself to Trump because he needed to attach himself to Trump because he had lost his job at Fox and he wanted to stay in the public eye and so therefore he needed he needed to be with Trump to stay relevant. And at the same time he did that, he he did achieve a lot of influence in the Trump administration and I think he thought that he would be able to talk Trump out of this war in Iran. He had certainly been able to wield his influence in lots of other ways in the administration. and I think he assumed that he would be able to do so this time and then when he didn't he had to obviously break things off. I thought the most interesting part of your interview actually or at least the parts that I saw was what he said about JD Vance um and the idea that you know President Vance would not have done this and I think that's been one of the big questions about where Tucker Carlson goes from here. Um JD Vance is you know obviously going to be running for president in 2028. Um is is he once upon a time it seemed like certainly Tucker would support JD Vance as would Donald Trump. It'll be really really interesting to see if if Tucker finds his way back in maybe through Vance because he seems to be absolving Vance of uh of this of this decision to go to war in Iran and and not not hanging in on him. And I think that's fairly significant. >>"
"Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. I mean, when I sort of put it to him that JD Vance had become almost like the face of this deal, he said, you know, I'll give him a pass on some of those things because obviously he's got to he's the vice president. he his whole job is to support uh the president. I I put his own political ambitions or whether there are any to him whether we'd likely to ever see a president Tucker or a running mate with uh JD Vance. Do you think um you know that that those ambitions are there? Because everything I've read and seen many people who say they know Tucker Carlson very well say he doesn't have those ambitions. He himself said to me, I I'm not the kind of person who hides how I feel. if that's what I want to do, I'd come out and say it. But do you think that that it's beneath the surface he has his own political ambitions? >>"
"I don't think he has, you know, personal political ambitions. I don't think he's someone who has wanted to run for president since he was a kid or has a burning desire to be president or vice president or anything like that. I do think he has a very um you know, he has a political project that he wants to see accomplished. And I think if if he decides that the only way it can be accomplished would be to run for office himself, either as you know, at the top of the ticket or maybe as a vice president, I think he would go ahead and do that. I think that he he is very interested in achieving certain political outcomes. And you know, for a long time now, for the past 10 years or so, he's been able to use Trump as a vehicle or for a while JD Vance as a vehicle. If I think if he comes to the conclusion that he himself needs to get into the arena to achieve these things, I think he would do it. But I don't think I think his friends who say he doesn't have sort of this personal desire, I think that's true. I don't think this is something he wants to do just for the sake of doing it. But I do think that he is he is sincere in his political beliefs and what he wants America to be. And I think that he will do what he has to do to see if he can accomplish those. >>"
"Jason Zangelier, thank you very much for joining us here on the program. >>"
"Thanks for having me. >>"
"Let's get the thoughts now of Aaron David Miller. He's a former US State Department Middle East negotiator. now senior fellow at the Kanei Endowment for International Peace. Thank you so much, Aaron, for joining us again um on the program. As you know and are aware, I've done this extensive wide-ranging interview with with Tucker Carlson. He's spoken about a range of issues from the war in Iran, the war in Gaza, his views on uh what's happening in the Middle East, obviously Donald Trump, the future of MAGA. But if I can take you back to some of the things that he was saying about uh Gaza, for example, the majority of Democrats and Republicans wouldn't agree uh with how Tucker Carlson has categorized the war. But are you surprised when you hear someone like Tucker Carlson, someone who is so close to Donald Trump, the MAGA movement, the Republican party, come out and say the sorts of things he is now saying about Gaza. >>"
"You know, thanks so much. I I'm sorry I didn't get to listen to the interview. I'm sure it was extremely revealing. Look, I I can't uh analyze, you know, I'm not a Tucker Carlson expert. Um I think the the the the issue here to me u putting aside uh uh Tucker Carlson's influence is what is the state of the USIsraeli relationship and has Tucker Carlson's views on this relationship fundamentally move the ball to a point where the tough and unprecedented rhetoric that both Donald Trump has used and JD Vance has now uh joined in uh that's it's extraordinary. No American president or vice president has ever said publicly what uh Donald Trump has said about Benjamin Netanyao, let alone leaked the profanity at least um um twoings and throwings of cell phone conversations with the prime minister where he's questioned the prime minister's judgment and and mocked him. The question is, as the question always is, in the real world, that is the world of policy, has anything happened or occurred that would fundamentally move Donald Trump from tough words and rhetoric to the actual imposition of costs and consequences on Israel. And that, by the way, goes for the Democrats as well. That party is now deeply divided. You have a minority of progressives that want to impose severe sanctions and costs and consequences on the net government. You have other more mainstream Democrats, the three Chrises and Holland Murphy and Coons who talk about conditioning military citizens. And you have most Democrats who were not elected to debate USIsraeli relationship policy in Washington who by and large I think are still quite supportive of the idea of Israel, the security of Israel, the people of Israel, obviously not so much Donald Trump. So that that's that to me that's the relevant issue. The question that you should be asking is is Carlson's rhetoric and the sort of moving uh of the MAGA base away from Israel, is it going to have an impact on policy? And let me be very clear what I mean. Is the president of the United States going to condition, restrict or end US military assistance to Israel? Is the president of the United States going to withdraw the United States from the intimate uh security and intelligence sharing with the Israelis? Is the president of the United States going to abandon Israel international fora, introduce their own security council resolutions at the UN, or vote for someone else's? I mean, those are the core questions that will determine whether or not what we're watching. your your interview with Tucker Carlson and and many of the other interviews he's already given and others as well would have an impact that that to me is the central question >> and I'm not sure the answer is I >>"
"I've just got >> that's where >> I've just got a couple of minutes and I just yeah I that's what I wanted to I've just got a couple of minutes but I just wanted to ask you in terms of public opinion in the United States shifting the sorts of things the vice president is saying and the president which we've not ever heard before uh from American leaders and politicians make if it doesn't happen under a Trump presidency, you know, should an Israel of today be concerned that after Trump, given public opinion is shifting in the United States, that relationship and policy is likely to change as well towards Israel >>"
"100%. Without a new Israeli prime minister, uh, and Israel is a writer center country, without a new American president, I think this relationship is going to continue to be under severe stress because the three foundational supports are under stress. the value affinity that we share common values with the Israelis, high coincidence of interests, we depart on significant issues, particularly the Palestinian issue, and then finally the erosion of a strong sustainable bipartisan support for Israel. Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu singlehandedly have undermined the notion of bipartisanship which was taken for granted Israeli behavior, Israeli policies, and Donald Trump's trying to turn the Republican party into the go-to party, the only party that really supports Israel. That's what Trump believes. That's been incredibly destructive. You get a new Israeli prime minister and a new American president committed to something quite different. And I suspect that much much not all Israel is a centerright country and moving rightward. Much of the tension, the toxicity may actually >>"
"Aaron, we're Aaron, we're going to have to leave it there, but thank you so much for for joining us here on the program >>"
"and thanks for having me. The UK has been another country frequently in Tucker Carlson's sites for criticism, but it's appears he could be changing his tune. Before uh we go on to that, I uh put another key question to him. Uh will we ever see a President Tucker? Have a listen. >>"
"That's literally the last thing I think I'm I would want to do that I'm suited for. I just don't think I'm a natural politician. >>"
"Donald Trump wasn't. >>"
"Yeah. You know, Trump had a couple of qualities I don't know that I have. I mean, there's a lot of qualities I don't think I have, but one in particular, man, that guy's tough. He's really tough in a true I mean, he's weak. On the other hand, obviously, he got pushed into a ridiculous war. But on another level, he's really a tough man. Whatever you think about what happened at Butler, he really was shot in the ear. The man behind him was killed by the bullet. So, that actually happened. you get shot and you stand up and do that can't be rehearsed. I know there's a lot of theories about it's all a setup. Come on now. I I talked to him that night. Uh I called him that night that he was shot and he was fine. I mean he's tough and you have to be tough. They go after your family. I've already gone after my family in a very big way. And I find it so upsetting. I can I can barely focus. I love my family. I don't want they didn't sign up for this, you know. So, the idea that you could take that level that your children could be targeted and his have been targeted with like potential prison sentences on fake charges and then keep going. I mean, I don't know, man. >>"
"But it's not a hard no. >>"
"Well, it's a hard no as of now. Yeah. I mean, I don't have any desire. I don't know that I would be willing to trade the safety and happiness of my family for that. >>"
"Can we take a moment to talk about Elon Musk? >>"
"Yeah. >>"
"Because there are many in Britain who are concerned that he is trying to undermine Britain's democracy that he's >>"
"Britain's what >>"
"democracy. >>"
"You guys don't have a democracy. [laughter] What are you talking about? >>"
"We do. We do. We do. We do have a democracy and we can talk about all of those issues. >>"
"George Galloway would be the prime minister if you had a democracy. >>"
"We can we can talk about all the issues that you're concerned about including free speech. >>"
"I just love George Galloway. I just want to say that. [laughter] >>"
"I'm sure he'll be very"
happy to hear. I love he knows. I told him many times he's living in exile. He can't even go back to the UK where he's from.
But but there are concerns that Elon Musk is amplifying falsehoods.
This is what kind of falsehoods? Well, I mean, you know, I can.
Well, everyone in the media is amplifying falsehoods. Like.
Yeah, but he's got he's the richest man in human history and incredibly powerful and 200 million followers on a platform that he owns and he says things like civil war is inevitable in Britain. It's just not.
I don't want civil war in Britain or anywhere else.
But it's just not going to happen.
Well, we'll see. I mean.
I mean you know I've spent the bulk of my adult life covering civil wars in Iraq and Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria. They're awful. It's just not what's happening in Britain.
Good. Then I I mean I just want to be clear. I don't I don't know where Elon said that or what his views on that are. Um but I definitely am opposed to civil war because I've seen them also and they're generational too. They don't just like stop. Their effects are felt for generations. So yeah. Yeah, no, I'm totally opposed to civil war. I don't want that. Which is one of the reason, the main reason why I think we need to rebalance the system to give people a little bit more power, a little bit more control over their lives. That's it. And the problem with Britain, we were talking about this before we went on the air, I often beat up on Britain. I'm half English, so I feel like I have a right to do that. I have family there, so I'm like entitled to criticize Britain. But honestly, the criticisms that I level against Britain are probably even truer in the United States. It's just Britain's smaller, less than a third the size. So it's like it's like a dollhouse version of the United States and you can sort of see all of your problems reflected in Britain. So I'm I'm sorry if I'm too mean to Britain, but I don't think you have a democracy cuz like here's the measure. The big things the government is doing, does the majority want them? The answer is no.
The idea that you know illegal immigrants are overrunning the country is just not true.
We're arguing past each other. You're you're making an argument that's not related to what I'm saying. You're saying are people wanting this or not?
I'm saying they never wanted it. There's no evidence that people ever the people who were born in Britain did not want this level of demographic change. There's no evidence that they did and there's a massive amount of evidence that they never did want it. And that's let me let's get up Britain because you're from there. I'll talk about my country because it's identical.
No, but what I wanted to get.
So that's not democracy. If you keep getting something you didn't want, you're not in control.
But but democracy is then having some time with a government that you didn't want the policies of and then you wait and then you vote again for the.
This is this is generational. This is generational. This has been going on since the end of the Second World War where on the big questions the population gets the opposite of what it wants no matter who it votes for. And the Iran war is the is the example. It's the perfect example. People literally voted against an Iran war when they voted for Trump. We've spoken so much about foreign interference, you know, in the the sort of system of the United States and the concerns you have around sovereignty and democracy. That is the feeling that people have with Elon Musk's interference. They feel that he is encouraging.
I get it. No, I think it's a smart point. I I don't know specifically about Elon, but I do think when you have an economic system in which the overwhelming majority of the rewards go to a small group of people, that puts that group in charge by definition. And so I'm not a traditional leftist. Maybe I am a traditional leftist, but I'm not a leftist down with white colonialism or whatever they're into up with the trans movement and all this nonsense. But like I agree with the traditional left on this one point if you have this concentration of wealth in this few hands. It's very hard for anyone else to have any power at all. So you can't by definition have democracy. I do think that that's true. And I would say the idea that Elon is the threat when Elon owns one social media platform.
Incredibly powerful guy.
I guess he's providing an alternative. He's like Trump in that sense. He's providing an alter. There's him and you can say, "Well, I agree or disagree or he's done something that's reckless or I think is bad." Got it. But compared to what? Like every other media organization in the United States is saying one thing. They're for neoconservative foreign policy and neoliberal economic policy. And then there's Elon who's like, well, he's got his views, but then he opens it up to other people's views. And some of those people are for neoconservative foreign policy and neoliberal economic policy, and some of them aren't. So, like, okay. Yeah, it's not a defensive Elon to say I'm glad that we have an alternative to CBS News and Fox News and CBS and NBC and CNN and MSNBC and the New York Times and the Washington Post and like the Economist and every other news organization in the world has one position and Elon has a kind of buffet style setup where you can kind of pick and choose what you want.
Well, I mean, I guess my the concern that many have is that when he says things like violence is coming for you at a at a massive rally of a far-right activist, Tommy Robinson, and.
Tommy Robinson's aren't far right.
Well, I mean.
Tommy Robinson, Tommy Robinson's a total fraud. Like an utter fraud.
But but at one of those rallies, I mean, Elon Musk did say, you know.
That's not even his name. [laughter] The whole thing is fake, dude. No, I don't care about Tommy Robinson who's like literally like whatever the Nick Fuentes of Britain. It's like fake. It's made up. What I care about are ordinary Britons of all colors who see their country becoming something that they didn't sign up for that they don't want and they have no way to change the outcome.
Well, I spoke to Rory Stewart, the former Conservative MP who is co-host of the Rest is Politics podcast. I asked his take on the way Elon Musk has intervened in British politics.
It's amazing because what you have is Elon Musk appearing on huge screens in Trafalard the square backing Tommy Robinson who's a convicted criminal. You have Elon Musk putting the whole social media engine of X behind a man called Rert Low. And what we're seeing there is the wealthiest man in the world with an extraordinary social media platform deliberately promoting elements of the farright. But it's not just true in Britain. This is a much wider phenomenon. It's also true of backing for example the alternative for daand in Germany and generally leaning in behind groups who drift around ideas that Elon Musk and Tucker Kulks and the farright share about immigration.
What uh was extraordinary, we had quite an an exchange about this and there was one moment where he conceded that perhaps he himself he went too far and he apologizes to Britain. Um but at the same time when we talk about you know Elon Musk saying things like uh civil war is inevitable in Britain he sort of says well you know I don't want to see civil war in Britain but concedes that that perhaps some of these uh statements have gone too far. What do you think all of this is about?
Look fundamentally uh these kinds of characters are dishonest. Uh Tucker Carlson's very good at being homely and sometimes obviously in the interview he'll concede that he's got things wrong, but you'll notice that he's got a base and he's got backers and there's people he's not going to turn about. So he's not really prepared to come out firmly against Elon Musk again around this issue of civil war. I presume Tucker Carlson knows that this is absurd. That actually, as he acknowledges in the interview with you, if there's any country that's close to a civil war of this sort, the kind of he's talking about, it's probably the United States. In fact, it's a kind of weird projection. Almost everything that he and Elon Musk say about Britain are really statements about the United States. They don't really map on to Britain very well at all. But he can't quite concede that. And why can't he quite concede that? Because, and I found this when I was a a politician in the Conservative party, people on the right can't ever quite bear if you're on the far right, to be honest, because it might be conceding a little bit too much to the center grounds, and it might not pump up your core supporters in the way that you want, even if it involves saying ludicrous things like Britain's on the verge of civil war.
Yeah. I talked to him about that projection. I said to him, "Are you projecting your own anxieties about your own country and your own society onto Britain?" We went through some of those um you know, census um facts and stats, things like life expectancy for example, things like immigration, crime rates, um infant uh mortality rates. It it was an interesting moment uh Rory because you know on the one hand you're saying you know they can't quite concede that they're they're wrong because they want to continue to pump their base but on the other hand he did sort of concede that yeah you know on many levels Britain is doing much better than most American cities. So perhaps we are uh you know almost projecting the anxieties of our own country onto you.
Well, look, Tucker Carlson is a complicated, interesting guy and you know, he will occasionally say things which um are true. He'll occasionally say things which are brave and different factions, including people from progressive left can get excited by Tucker Carlson from time to time when he's on their side. Uh but the fundamental thing remains what you've pointed to is the statistics show immigration is coming down in Britain. uh violent crime is reducing. Britain is a safer society than it was five years ago. And yet Tucker and Elon Musk and others are trying to portray Britain as though it's a kind of mad uh London in particular kind of mad land occupied by jihadis wielding knives, you know, and and it really gets through. I mean, I get a number of Americans saying, "Are you safe? Are you sure you're okay in Britain?" uh and and when something's that offbeam, you know, so far from reality, there's something psychological going on. And part of it is projection, but the other thing which is even more disturbing is it's sometimes wish fulfillment. You get the idea that Elon Musk is saying there's a civil war in Britain because he wants there to be a civil war. And in fact, in that famous appearance in Trafalago Square, he's saying fight.
When you say that uh you know sometimes the left get excited about some of the things that Tucker Carlson says is because perhaps the right and the left are aligned when it comes to things like the war in uh Iran for example the war in in Gaza what's happening there as well and we see both sides of the spectrum agreeing even though they come from from those sort of extreme positions they agree on some of these fundamental issues when it comes uh to uh you know the war in Iran, for example. Do you think that's an overall shift with the MAGA movement and the right or do you think this is just the views of of one individual who has an incredibly powerful platform and base?
I I think uh Tucker Carlson and some of the rights are shifting and definitely they're very disappointed that a Donald Trump who they thought was going to keep them out of war has taken them into yet another disastrous failure in the Middle East. I mean it's sort of bewildering for them but still a very very large number of Republicans and MAGA voters continue to support Trump and continue to support him in his interventions in Iran. In the background though there is a massive shift happening in American politics in relation to particularly Israel. You can see this in the new type of Democratic candidates emerging. You can see that the cross party consensus in the United States around Israel of support for Israel is beginning to crumble. People are more reluctant to take funding from groups linked to Israel. So there is something very interesting happening both on the progressive left and as you say on the right uh represented by people like Tucker Carlson, but they're about quite different things. I think when the Republican right is usually criticizing Iran, it's criticizing it on the grounds that they think it's a poor strategy that isn't winning. They don't have much sympathy, I don't think, for Iran. The left may be more inclined to look at the issues of humanitarian suffering, the killing that's going on, the school children, for example, that were killed on the second day of the intervention.
That's Rory Stewart, the host of the rest is Politics podcast, giving me his views on Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk and what they have been saying uh about Britain and Britain's democracy. Extraordinary admission there from Tucker Carlson about his attitudes towards Britain saying that uh he admits that he has been mean uh when it has come to Britain. You can watch uh more of my interview on uh Sky platforms and on our YouTube channel. Skye's YouTube channel will be uh platforming uh more of that Tucker Carlson interview. But from me and the team here in New York, uh the world returns [music] tomorrow night from 9:00 p.m. The rap is next and I will be uh back tomorrow [music] night. For now, good night.