Transcription
And we're here to talk about Chinese youth. So, Cheng, if you could take it away, what are two trends that you've been looking at recently, you know, over the last year and into the future as pertains to Chinese youth?
Um, yeah, thank you everyone for staying with us. Uh, we know this is in the after lunch and uh, we may need a little bit, you know, cheering up and uh, make sure you get your coffee and uh, make sure you went to the bathroom. We still have a long day to go. And um, so uh, uh, uh, sitting here and I've been sitting the same room uh, with everyone uh, from early in the morning. So, maybe I started from a uh, a remark I I I I've had uh, listening to all the wonderful conversation. Uh, you know, it's a very uh, privilege to be part of the conversation with, you know, such a group of distinguished um, uh, you know, China specialists or Asia specialists. And I uh, coming from China, I really appreciate, you know, the opportunity that everyone is giving, is making the space and giving proper attention to China. I think it's very necessary, but I think there's also somehow maybe a risk of, you know, falling into this China exceptionalism, which means we give a lot of attention to China, we talk about how special China as a country, but in a way or we we might also, you know, authorize China. Uh, so coming back to uh, Buckley's uh, question, it's really great pleasure to be to be sharing the the stage.
Um, and I think uh, you know, in terms of, you know, um, what has been on the mind of young Chinese, talking about, you know, what are their desires and what are concerns, I actually see a great shout of similarity globally. Uh, especially for the younger generation in China, in here in France, and in the US, and in also other part of the world. So, let's not forget about that. I will quickly go through two observations I want to share about interesting trends that I think are important to to watch in China. One is a cliche, it's about AI. Another one is probably less cliche, it's about the gender crisis right now in China. And so, starting from AI, um I think we have been talking about, you know, how China is developing its own national strategy about AI and what the economic implication might be. But, I think one important element is really also about how people in China are feeling about AI. So, I've been noticing, you know, outside China, there has been a sort of, you know, impression that in China, in terms of the AI, people are generally more, you know, people are people people have have have wider or better public acceptance about AI. So, in a way, some sort of techno-optimism. And you see, like, you know, young and old people are using AI, crazy about, you know, open cloud and and all that sort of news. And we also have seen, you know, data from different sources that assure like the willing to trust AI in China, it does seem like objectively probably higher. And however, my feeling is that on the ground, it's actually been more complicated and we shouldn't confuse, you know, acceptance to optimism. And I think the, you know, the excitement about tech advancement in China, especially around AI, is is true. Because I think partially because, you know, tech advancement in China has mostly been positively associated with, you know, personal advancement. And also there is a sort of formal in there that if I don't participate in the AI game, then I'm going to be missing out. And in the speed of China, that missing out is not acceptable. And there's also this anxiety around job in the, you know, China's the job market isn't already is already not doing so well. Um so there is an anxiety on that front. And I think all in all it's a really mixed your feeling that is difficult to, you know, just describe as optimism. And in my own word, I think I would say it's a some sort of a reluctant but resilient or so like it's kind of a reluctant and resilient fatalism with some sort of, you know, wisdom with Chinese characteristics. And so AI's like been developing so quick therefore I think it has been affecting so many different fronts in the society. Just quickly one example about what's interesting watch is like dating. I think AI has been reshaping how young Chinese see their you know, see see the relationship with intimacy. And just next week I think from next week on the government is actually going to put a new regulation in terms of, you know, limiting the usage of AI lover. So a lot of AI bots will have to reprogram themselves. And therefore, I think it's it's interesting to notice all this sort of, you know, sudden implication about AI usage in China. And the second one is about like the gender crisis. So I run a podcast mostly Uh, it's a Chinese language podcast and our audiences are mostly young women in China. And I personally think the rise of feminism has been the most important shift in Chinese society in the last 10 years. And correct me if I'm wrong, and also feel free to challenge me on that front. But I think it is is an issue that is so important, but it's often overlooked in the Western discussion. Especially like a discussion like this. We we put up a China conference, and probably gender has been on the mind of a lot of participants here, but we rarely hear it from, you know, stage. So I think it's important to mention that. And it's it's relevant on so many fronts, you know, about the, you know, democratic crisis in China, you know, why Chinese government has been trying so hard, but still difficult to bring back the fertility rate. And I think that's not because you know, the failure of policy, it's probably because, you know, for the first time, a whole generation of Chinese women start to have the agency and the resources to decide to just have kids on their own terms, not on other people's terms. And also, you notice like this, you know, gender awareness gap between young women and young men in China is getting larger and larger. And it's particularly so for Gen Z compared to millennial. And I think interestingly, we also see that gap in the West reasons in the US. Like young men are more likely to vote for, you know, conservative, while the young women are more progressive. So to end here, as I want your opinion as well. I think, you know, Chinese young people are special. China is a special country. However, they are also a part of a global trend. They are also part of a global community. So what is happening elsewhere in the US, in Europe here, is also true or largely true for Chinese young people.
You know, I would I would really echo that. So, I think, you know, your point about not, you know, seeing Chinese youth as exceptional. I think we can talk about maybe like youth with Chinese characteristics or something like that. If you take an issue like youth unemployment, so that's something that I've been looking at with Jing for the last 5 years at the CCA. And, you know, youth unemployment since the pandemic has hovered around 20% and then they've changed the methodology. It's now maybe about 15%, but it's probably a lot higher, but if you were to look at India, for example, India, 1/3 of graduates also are unemployed. If you look at the New York Fed, 41% of American youth are underemployed. In other words, they're doing jobs that do not match their qualifications. So, this is a global trend, right? And there are specifics to that and how that plays out in China. And similarly with gender, right? So, demographic crisis in China, very low birth rate. This is a real headache for the party. This is a real This is, you know, part of the conversation earlier about automation and AI adoption. You know, this is also a state-level policy to try and look 10 years, 20, 30 years down the future when there are less workers, how are you going to manage society? And, you know, the rise of AI obviously complicates employment for young people. It makes them more pessimistic. I think this narrative of tech tech optimism is also, I think, generational. I think young Chinese people are more skeptical about the AI future and the fear of employment. And then, you know, to the point about AI companions, so I think one thing that's really interesting is there's a game in China which is called Love and Deep Space. It's very popular across Southeast Asia and also very popular in China. It's an app that's aimed at young women. They, you know, with these It has these kind of AI anime boyfriends, right? And these It's an incredibly popular game and you spend more money to unlock kind of digital dates with your AI boyfriend. But, the makers of this game are really smart, so they integrated a period tracker into the game. And so, the AI boyfriend, you know, 3 days before a woman goes on their period, "How are you feeling? Can I get you a hot water bottle?" You know, it's a very sophisticated technologies, and lots of young women in China uh like, this AI boyfriend is great. I love this AI boy- I'm going to just spend Why would I spend money on a date when I could spend my money on my AI boyfriend, and he actually listens to me? So, you know. But, AI companions also exist in the West. So, it, you know, youth with Chinese characteristics.
Yeah, I found that really, really interesting. Cuz I know you have also been, you know, working on the project not just about, you know, the unemployment, but also mental health issue in China. How do you How do you see that is, you know, unfolding this year in recent years? How do you see, like, for instance, the whole AI deployment is affecting on that front?
Yeah, for sure. So, I work at The Economist now, and I'm at CCA, but before that I did a PhD in anthropology, and my research was with psychological counselors in China, particularly in Chengdu. And that work was actually pre-pandemic. So, there was already kind of an upswing in interest amongst young urban professionals, mainly women, and the affluent, to think about mental health, mental well-being. And then the pandemic completely supercharged this. Obviously, I think one statistic that I saw was during the Shanghai lockdown, searches for the word depression went up 234% on Baidu. So, this is a huge societal-wide moment and kind of cultural awakening. But, there are still very limited mental health resources in China. And so, one thing that you see is actually greater adoption of AI therapists. So, many people won't know do but all AI algorithms have to be registered in China with the government, and the government has a dozen AI AI mental health algorithms that are registered and that are, you know, seen as kind of somewhat clinically informed AI mental health algorithms. And according to the Shanghai Mental Health Center, 50% of young people have tried speaking about their emotions or mental well-being with an AI. So, that is higher than the uptake in America, actually.
Yeah, I found I found this is very interesting cuz like we are having this panel basically talking about, you know, what is on demand of young Chinese people. And like ironically speaking, I think none of us is like kind of qualified as young anymore.
This is the sadness when we were doing the prep for this and we were like, ah, not young anymore.
Yeah, I I have to confess I am I'm a millennial. And so, I think a lot of the a lot of the uh uh uh uh tools, a lot of you know, my way of you know, coping with life has a lot of characteristics from my generation. Like for instance, about this, you know, AI romance, like you say it's kind of like trending right now, and also AI therapy. And I think for me as a millennial, I feel I can still accept you know, AI therapy. And sometimes I get like in like like important emotional support from from AI. But as someone who you know, didn't grow up in a in a AI era, it's very difficult for me to imagine having a romantic relationship with a bot. However, in some of the recent episodes we did in our podcast, it was about AI lover. And we did a we did a survey with the audience, and most of our audiences are like young Chinese, especially young women, and aging between I think uh, 18 to 30 year old. And I think 80% of them said to us, oh, they can't actually imagine having a romantic relationship uh, with AI. And I think that's going to be very transformative because this like it, you know, like generational shift it it it's real because of the AI romance and AI therapy is not it's not hypothesis anymore. It's it's a reality in China and probably also elsewhere in the world.
Yeah, I mean, what it means to be like a young person today where you have AI, you know, where you are growing up with AI and you're an AI native makes you very different to us. I mean, I do feel I do feel this big generational gap. So, there are some amazing young people here from a thing called the Agora Fellowship. And yesterday I was speaking to one of them and he was like, oh, yeah, well, one of the things I'm doing is I'm really trying to train my AI to like learn me so that we can work better together. And this is terrifying to me. But like that is just a sign that like I don't get it and that kid is inevitably going to start a unicorn company and, you know, so there you go.
Right. Um, so shall we
Yeah, I think we're opening to the floor. So,
Uh, so the question is is there any connection between this type of therapy AI use and movement such as tang ping within the youth in China? Yeah, I I think very much. I mean, I think tang ping is often referred to and I think sometimes lazily referred to as this actual movement of people actually not working and not, you know, but if you meet any young Chinese person they are working extremely hard. It's incredibly competitive. Tang ping is aspirational if anything. You cannot actually lie flat. It's impossible. So, but what tang ping is is it is a it's an emotional it's an affective rhetoric for understanding the society. And so, I think there is an intimate a very intimate connection between those two things.
Um, yeah, I I think I think actually um so my understanding of both town ping and also this AI therapy is that I I don't see it as some sort of, you know, passive retreat. I see uh agency in both. And I think town ping um is is an act from a whole group of uh Chinese people, especially Chinese young people, that is trying to regain their agency. And I think the uh AI therapy is sort of in the same genre. Like if you were born in China in this time, what what can you do? What can you do beyond your uh structural limitation? And this is also what I found very interesting to, you know, um work uh research and interview about Chinese society is like uh I I I I I I found this agency in a lot of uh people who are who are living difficult situation. And um and um So So in the last I think in the last uh 2 years there has been a phrase that uh had been very popular uh on the Chinese social media. It's called uh garbage time. In Chinese, uh laji shijian. And so it was about the term from the basketball game. And uh it gained popularity, I think, because um it said something uh to it speaks to the Chinese youth about their situation. Um, you know, uh if you're living in a garbage of history, um what you do or don't do probably don't seem to matter anymore. Uh, how do you cope? And some of the recent episode we do uh is called how not to be garbage in a garbage time.
Mhm.
And so I found that I found that agency quite uh inspiring.
Jin, you had a question?
Mhm.
Thank you. I was just about to type into the uh QR code to show that I'm still useful. Um, you are you are both very useful and very proud to have both of you in the center and to my earlier point of the intergenerational collaboration. Um, again, youth is a state of mind. I think everybody in the room is very useful to be here. But for those who are not engaging the younger generation, what would your recommendation to be for them to better understand the younger generation and to better engage the younger generation? Because in my experience, if you understand them better, engage them better, they will be forces of the sustainable world changes.
Uh, it's a cliché, but the youth are the future. So, if you want to know where China is heading, and you should listen to Qing's podcast. That would be the best way.
Um, I think So, I think working with the young people or, you know, having audiences of young people having a very humbling experiences. I think, you know, a lot of the time as podcasters or journalists, you feel like you are writing something for them. You are telling them something that they don't know. And I think that's definitely the wrong attitude. And I think treating them in a equal way and being humble and learning from them and also maybe learning from each other and do not have too much pre-existing of assumption and also be aware of a some sort of a generational privilege, I would say. So, I I grew I was born in in the '80 and through all my upbringing, I felt it's a great privilege to to have experienced a China that feels a little a slightly different from here. You know, China was become a part of the WTO and China become more important in global stage. And I was I was a volunteer at the the Olympics in 2008 and I felt that has been sort of, you know, like the the background color of of myself. And I think it's it's also important to realize nowadays Chinese people or notice young people in general they probably have experienced a very different political climate. And keeping that in mind and I think that will make us like you know, both better.
Yeah, but I mean in a sense like metaphorically you kind of grew with China as it were. So you got to experience that huge uplift and that's obviously very different for kids who grow up today.
Yeah, do we have more? I think there was a a question about feminism before. Can we go back?
Uh, I will I will quickly be on this one and maybe I can get the next one and uh, and So I think I think the current movement in China, the feminism movement in China or that has been happening in China last 10 years was inspired by the Western movement especially starting from like me too in the US and then when globally I think China was definitely part of that. But I think on the other hand the feminism movement in China has also been taking its own turns like for instance um, um, um, right like for instance if you are you know, a feminist in China when you are fighting for you know, women's agency of you know, controlling their own body for a long time what you were fighting what you were fighting for was like people or women were not you know, being being being being sent to you force abortion while in the US is very different case, right? You won't fight for women have the right to have abortion. And I think what's interesting in China right now is is this a new phenomenon that is called that is that is called a pink feminism. So, it's kind of like a mixture of nationalism and a feminism. And so, you you you both are proud of being an independent woman and at the same time you subscribe yourself to some sort of patriotism. And and I think that sort of has, you know, China's own logic and own characteristics. And you know, not to say you know, if the progressive side like that trend or not, but it's it's happening and I think it's actually a big part of the right now the feminism movement in China. It's that it goes hand in hand with the state capacity, state power, state love.
Wow, that uh uh And it's uh it's time. Thank you so much for having us. And uh now there's going to be a really beautiful uh meditation on Chinese art and the future with a cultural icon Jin Xing and she will be in conversation with Sylvie L'Evay uh who's been following her work for two decades. So, it'll be really beautiful.
Thank you. Thank you.