History/Evolution of Boogaloo and Animation, With Boogaloo Dana, Boogaloo Bill, and Playboy Stix.

So anyway, for everyone watching, because you're probably watching this right now on YouTube or Instagram, and if you're new, this is a a podcast. I call it the Creative Movers Podcast. But recently, we've been interviewing dancers specifically in the popping community, Bugaloo community. Um, talking about animation, the different styles there are, the history, where it's coming from. We've interviewed people from LA. We've interviewed people from the Bay Area. Um, and we're just, you know, putting the pieces together.

This really started out for um talking about animation, understanding where that came from, the style uh but also we will touch up on animation today, but we'll also talk about other styles as well and kind of where the style, how it went from Oakland, LA's relationship with Oakland, um and also shruting because I feel we see it done, but I don't know if if a lot of people, at least the current generation, how familiar they are with it. I only know of it because of YouTube and what I've seen people talk about it. Um, you know, we have here Bugaloo Dana who is part of Media Circus which is a big influence in struting. Um, the influence they have. We also have Bugaloo Bill here joining us as well and Bryce who also from Playboys is here. So, we have a I feel a great uh how do I say like representation of the Bay Area and strutting. Um, so yeah, I guess further ado, thank you Booaloo Dana for taking time. Thank you Baloo Bill for being here and thank you Bryce for connecting me to Bugaloo Dana and then getting to connect to the Bugaloo Bill. So yeah, guys, how are we feeling? And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Feeling good. It's an honor. It's an honor. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah. No, of course. I appreciate you taking the time. Um, I know we've been talking about animation the previous uh interviews. Um, but first I guess I'd like to ask Bugaloo Dana and Bugaloo Bill as uh how did you get into dance? What what were you what were you doing? What was how did you get into the dance? Bill, you want to go first? You want me to go first?

Um, I can go first. Um, I'll start with the very first time I saw a robot uh in 1965. It was uh it was a science fiction movie and it starred a robot. His name was Tobar and that was the very first time I'd ever saw a robot in the actual movements. Um that was right around 1965. um 1968 1969 I was in I was at a an elementary school talent show and uh one of the guys that was in my class his name was Carice Titus and I saw him dancing and instantly when I saw him I got the bug and so the following I began to start trying to learn it. Uh, so by 19 I'd say right by 1970 1971 um I'd gotten pretty I'd gotten pretty decent at it. Um, and I began with a little known style. Now it's called headhunting. Back then it was called head snatching. It's a very theat very theatrical style. There were movements, there was sounds, there was touching. Uh, there was pulling of clothes. There was taking off of hats. It was it was a style that was created to um to embarrass you because there's a lot of talking going back and forth. So um and there's a and it's and it and it has roots and the roots date back before the 60s as a matter of fact. Wow. So it didn't begin as a dance, it began as something else and it evolved into it. So the foundation of it basically was the same. It came from embarrassing talking about one another. Um and as it evolved it it it it came to be with the same when it came to the speaking but then there was music and there was movement and all of that you know together and there were two phases of it. There was just the natural movements of those of that and then there was this thing called animation that was sort of you know incorporated into the movements. So that's where I got my start. And then I as I as I got older um that style sort of transitioned out and it gave way to this new thing called posing. Wow. Yeah.

Sorry. Sorry to because there's so much right now what you said that I I want to just touch back on it. So there was you're saying 1970 the head hun head snatching style. Yes. Not. And so this was a style people were using with dance against an opponent and grabbing their head like they were grabbing the head and doing things with it, eating it, throwing it, tossing it up, hitting it with a baseball and it was getting popular in the 197 very popular very popular. It was I it's it's it's I believe that it was sort of the beginning of it. Um, now let me just say this. Geographically, Oakland is broken up into three areas. You have East Oakland, West Oakland, and North Oakland. I grew up in West Oakland, and head snatching was created exclusively in West Oakland. So, it was a style that we were doing there and then it branched out to other communities as people moved, you know, east, north, west, you know, they they sort of took bits and, you know, pieces of it, you know, with them. But that's that's where that's where that's where I started. Okay. Wow. And then what if in the 60s there was you was there a head snatching or no? What was it done in the 60s? What were Well, it was a combination of things because now you now you're entering into this other type of bugaloo which was social social dancing. That's where you had your you know James Browns, right? So it was that and it was integrated with the head snatching. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So then this head snatching style and then you said it evolved. Yes. into what was it? What was you said? It evolved into posing. Posing. It came It came into a posing style. So it's this thing called hitting. Okay. How did that Yeah. How did that turn? Yeah. It transitioned. So it went So for us in West Oak, it went from the head snatching and those who could transition went into posing and then from posing it went to it went to hitting. And then after hitting there was this thing called dime stop. Interesting. And then from dime stop it went to the harder. It went from the harder hit. So you got guys like Kernney. Yes. That's and that that was that was his that was his claim to fame. He wasn't the only one doing it but that's kind of the lineage. That's what we experienced being in West Oakland. So Kernney is a uh how influential in terms of a hard dime stop and a hard hit. No, he's he's influential in terms of a hard hit. The hard hit. The hard hit. So you had to So you had the you had the the posing see posing posing and hitting were almost identical. They were almost identical because you had a regular hit and then you had the harder hit. So everybody's on a quest to evolve and do something different, right? So when Kernney Kernney decided that he was going to do something different, so so he was the one that sort of uh I don't want to say that he was the one who actually created it, but he's the one that made it popular. Wow. Okay. And so at first it was just the hard hit, but as the hard hit caught on, uh, of course trying to be ever much the creator, he included vibrating with his hit. Kernney Kernney. Interesting. Okay. So he so, so so, so that's why his hit you when he hits you see a little vibrate in his hit because prior to that it was just a hard hit. But again, because this dance, this art form was so competitive, um, he wanted to stay a step ahead of the game. So, he put the vibrate in with the hit with the hard hit. So, that's what that's where you see that when he hits. And it's a little different from most of the It's It's a little different from everybody else who hits. That's his That's his little additive extra thing. Got it. Wow. And I know from because uh previously I did an interview with Chuck Powwell and uh Kernney as well in a previous one and from the black messengers and I know people have said how the black messengers have were a influence uh in a very uh big influence. Okay. Got it. Okay.

So as you were saying about your own style that it's you saw the robot and then uh you saw the head snatching style then it go into posing. where what where where were you what was your journey in continuing forward from the 70s maybe going into the 80s? By 1978 uh I I graduated from high school in 1977. By 1978 uh I began adulting. So um I went off to college. Um I had a full ride scholarship to go play baseball. That's another whole story. But I began adultting. So, I didn't uh I I wasn't active and actual performing. Uh, but I I tried to keep my ear as low to the ground as I possibly could. The person you really want to ask that question to is the gentleman sitting to my right because Dana is probably the only dancer from from my era. We come from the same era. Okay. Dana is the only dancer who actually never stopped performing. Interesting. Only one that I know of from my era. There was only one other person that came close. Rest in peace, he passed away. And his name was Rio Robot. Wow. He was consistently dancing through consistently dancing the whole Wow. Okay. And you know, it's interesting because when I I when I'm referring back to the other interviews, I know I believe like u like uh like I know Mark Newsen has shared that he's at a certain high school, I think after high school it was he stopped um uh some people went to the military or some people um yeah so I guess this is a great opportunity to have Dana share since you were consistent through 70s, 80s, 90s. You didn't go away for a time period or like a large time period. So, all right. So, let's transition to Dana. How did you get into this dance? How did you This is going to take This is going to take a couple minutes. I love it.

So, before I start talking, I want to um give a disclaimer before I start talking. So, my disclaimer is um so my name is Booalud Dana. Um the co-founder of Media Circus, formerly known as Demons of the Mind. also was in a group out of Richmond called the Criminons. I've been consistently dancing since 1972 up until now 2025. Either physically involved with it or indirectly involved with it. I never missed a beat. Uh in the bear they consider me a baraloo or art and culture music balon. Uh, another thing of disclaimer I want to say is when when I talk about answer the questions you're talking about, I'll be you'll see me look it up in air cuz we're talking about 50 years and 40 years we have to remember. So we'll say around 70 around 70. We're not going to always be accurate to dates. We'll try to get as accurate as we can. Also all the stuff that I'll be answering is either stuff I experienced myself that I seen with my own eyes or from many the many interviews we did from a lot of the elders some who are not even here anymore. So I try to be accurate as possible. So, I want you guys to focus on the story in the bigger picture as opposed to was it exactly at January the 20th at 5:00 a.m. in the morning? Nobody's going to remember that. You know what I'm saying? So, but I'll try to get and if I can't answer it, I'll find out the answer. And there's no answer, I won't duck. There's not a situation to bash anybody. This is for information. There's no answer. I won't duck. I'll try to answer as much as I can. If I know it, I'll ask him. If it's something with the new generation that's transition, I'll get Bryce to translate the younger generation. So, um, basically I just want that's my disclaimer. So, uh, when I'm talking I could be free and and just kind of, uh, go through my journey as you're ask asking questions. So, that's my disclaimer. Okay. Nice. All right. So, with that being said, Dana, how did you get into the dance? How did you get into dance? What was Okay.

So, when I saw the dance, I didn't know what I didn't know that was the dance. So, about 19 Here I go. right here. Around 1970 or 71, I think I was 10 or 11 years old, I used to stay with my grandmother in East Oakland on 98 Mid A Street and she lived in the hood. So my grandmother was real strict with all the grandkids. We couldn't go outside, you know, cuz those kids were bad. So I had to stay in the living room and just look out the living room and just reminisce and hope I could play with those kids. So every night I look out the window, was a big frame window and nothing was going on. It just like some kids playing. Oh, okay. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, some kid, you know, I get so kid getting a lot of shaking. I got the shaking. That was part of the vibrating. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. And so it was a big mirror and I looked I'm big window and I look out. Okay, some kids playing. What's the big deal? Anime J. One night I looked out and something happened. I looked out the window and I couldn't even I'm 10, 11 years old, so I can't even explain it. I can explain it now as adult, but I couldn't grasp it at the same time. There were three tall guys that I was 10, 11. They might have been about 16, 17 years old. It was three tall, skinny guys, real skinny. They were cold black. They had these long maxi coats on. They had these long perms. They had these Godfather hats on. And wow, they were playing baseball, but there was no baseball. There was no bat. There was no mint. There was no referee. That's crazy. Okay. I'm like, "What the hell is going on?" So, what they were doing is now we're I had knee surgery a while ago, so I can't move like and you know, you know, we're older guys trying to demonstrate. So, use your imagination. Right. Right. So, I'm looking in the mirror and I see the guy. He he reaches out. Now, I want to say this when you see me do this. animation. We'll we'll um address that later, but animation and Bugaloo were born together, separated, and came back as a marriage. Wow. So, I'm giving you a precursor to that, which we'll get into that later. So, you'll wonder why is he doing that? So, I I remember the guy was sitting there and he looked like this. He went in his coat and got like he had a bat and he grabbed and he went this way and posed and he hit the ball, but he looked this way and he turned his around. He threw his neck around. cuz they did a lot of this. He threw his hands like this and his head and wormed and he start creeping towards the front. Then the other guy came up. He grabbed the bat. He put up in his hair. He put it up in the air. He looked this way. He put his neck around. He hit the ball and he he looked like it was no pose. It was just freezing him. He stopped. He did his neck around and he he shift his way and then he broke down like this and grabbed me and he and he pointed the guy and that guy came up and then they both turned and they all start going towards the first B. I was like, "What the [ __ ] is that ball?" I'm like, "What's that?" He turned this way and I think he moved his hand. He threw his hand and he stopped. I I I was blown away. So, every night they would do something. Next night they play a dice game. The guy was playing dice. He put the dice out his rock. He broke down, hit the dice. He stole the dice. The guy pulled a gun and shot him. He came like pulled his coat up, threw his coat to the side with his hand. He pulled his hand like this and he pull up Oh, he shot him and the guy fell down dead. And they turned around and did his whole funeral and turned around and start marching like a casket and turned around. They start throwing their hands around and he pulled this way and he Oh, it was crazy. He pointed up to heaven like So you I don't know what's going on. You're watching this outside of I'm watching this outside. Yeah. You're just watching these kids doing they're doing a skit. I I can't I can explain it now as adult, but I didn't have the words for it. All I know is these guys are real skinny and they were and they were they were they were stepping and the main thing they were doing their neck they were throwing their hands out and they used to worm a lot and they would freeze and he'll point at the other guy and the guy turn this way and he come up like this and he'll grab a uh grab a bite and he'll hit this way and he'll like this and look up this way and then they all start creeping this way to to the first base and they start then they all break down come down and oh it was cold. Wow. Okay. Okay. And so this is what they were doing. Okay. Okay. I know what you're trying to ask, but I can't explain because I don't remember I don't know what it is yet. Right. Right. Right. Right. I don't know what it is. They do this every night. Right. So, this this is they're doing stuff like that. So, two years later, I ended up going to I moved to Berkeley, ended up going to Junior uh King Junior High School in ' 72. So, in 72 all the black schools in all the black areas in all the United States were renaming their names after slain civil rights. Malcolm X, Frederick Douglas, U. Martin King. So, with the Martin Luther King, so I didn't forgot about this guy. I'm in the seventh grade. The guy next to me name is Drake. He's got a perm. He's got a a net on his He's got a hat. He's got a cane. He's in the seventh grade with a cane. He's got a long cane. Wow. And all of a sudden, he starts reaching up and closing doors and grabbing stuff out and he acts like he has a cigar. He goes to sleep and he wakes himself up again. Then he turns and he turns this way and points at the teacher and then he grabs his coat up and he comes down and comes acting like this. He comes up. He's not posed yet. His neck start and when he starts doing his neck, he starts getting smaller. Then he hits himself and he blows up like this. Then he starts climbing up like this. And then he starts moving this way, but he's not he's not p. He's moving this way. Then he grabs his neck this way and he grabs himself back. Then he goes back and then he goes back to sleep again. Opens up. The desk comes up again and stops like this. Like I'm like, "What the hell is that called?" Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm sorry. I got to process this. So, you're in class. I'm in the seventh grade. And the guy, he's just he's just doing this in his seat. Yeah. Every day he's he's he's grabbing some this way. Well, he's not posing cuz posing that kid, right? Turn this way and he's grabbing this way. He's come back. Then he that that everything does. He throws his hand around. Then he wiggles his thing. Then he opens up the desk. He hides his desk. He brings himself back up. I think he turned this way and pulled the teacher in. He was pulling the teacher. What are you doing? And he and he cut then he comes up like a like he's sleep. Wow. I'm trying to remember these moves. This is years ago. Then he then because you know he had maxi coat. Then he pulled his coat up. Then he lift up his coat, turned this way and turned this way and went back down. His head was gone. Brought it back again. He he warmed up again. And then he threw his hands out like this. And he he stopped like a puppet. And then he put his coat up there. He put up his coat. Brought his coat back. Met his coat back this way. went to sleep. Boom. Boom. He starts moving like this, side to side, and moving his hand like all like I said, "Man, can you show me how to do that?" He said, "If you show me how to read and show me how to um spell," cuz he was kind of illiterate, "I'll teach you." [ __ ] By the time I got through him, he was a genius. And so he took me by the gym and he started show I said, "What is that called?" He said, "It's called bugging, Baloo, and Cutting Up." It's three names. Interesting. book a little cutting up. I'm in the seventh grade. This is 1972. And I said, "Well, how how do you" He said, "All you're doing is taking all I'm doing is taking imagine things and moving stuff to the side and bringing stuff back like this." And he's moving stuff like this. And he's breaking down like this. He's grabbing himself, bringing himself back up. Then his neck starts going around. Then he presses, then he goes like four times down. He bring his coat up, turns his coat. Then his body turns with his coat. Then he brings his coat back. Then he goes like this and goes to sleep to the side. Then he throws his hand. He's doing all kind of I mean it was it's mind-blowing. I'm trying to remember this stuff from 50, 60 years ago. And so he showed me how to do that. I got really really good. He said, "Don't do nothing until I'm finished with you." So he finished with me. He ended up going to juvenile ya because he was a straight, you know, he's a thug, criminal, hood, gangster, pimp. And he all his brothers was. And then when I broke out the dance the first time, everybody went crazy because they didn't know I could dance. And next thing you know, the whole world was calling me Dana. So that's how I became. Wow. Wow. I I know I'm showing moves from 50. I'm probably rusty. This is from We're old, but I'm trying to give you the best way I can do. Yeah. I mean, I'm blown away just by you doing it right now. How you're imitating it and you're saying it like remember I haven't done that. I haven't done that since the seventh grade and I'm, you know, we're talking about 60 something years. So, um, forgive the the rustiness, but I just trying to tell the story the best way I can. I yeah I I that's I mean the way you've described it the the level of creativity and the playfulness and the cleanness is in my opinion like wow like was that pretty good for old guy for for for old guy for old guy and for being in the 70s this dude in your class doing that I feel Drake he's the one that showed me showed me what it was Drake like the way you're explaining it to me I feel that fits to today standard like I feel people today would trip out like as well like one of the unlocked it's like the dead scrolls is one of the ones they didn't unlock that never got out right so okay so you said the there was two moves uh I if you could clarify the arm movements what was that called so the basic move which I'll get back to the beginning how animated and balon were born together and how they separated and came back together they were interlock marriage the main move that most people did because the posing hadn't came out yet it was just freezing so the main so it was three things going on. So it was like so the main thing that Bonsl did back then was cut you always see them throwing their hands like this different varieties which is preander's filmore which is be we'll get to that later. They would throw their hands like this. They would always throw their neck around and it would stop and they would roll their chest and then it would turn into a creature. That was the main ingredient. It was on you how you did that variety. Everybody did that combination. Throw your hand. No, the hop hadn't came out. Well, we hadn't got the hop yet because the uh Hamill came with the hop in 72, but when I was at junior high, the hop hadn't came to Berkeley yet. I didn't find out that the hop the hop till later on. So, that hop was the next move, but it was basically that the hand movement like this. They were doing like this. They were throwing it around around. No, we didn't. They did. I I'mma tell you about the creeping story in a minute. They like that because remember, I just started so I I don't know all this stuff yet. Okay. And um going they throw the arms out like this and the next is going around and it was always a freeze stop and when you freeze you know you might take something up like this and move to the side and turn like this and open you might take this open it take some groceries out you know kind of how robot prints yeah exactly exactly exactly how robot prints we were kind of doing he strictly you know robot prints is this you know he's got you know he's got the uh but we were in and out of it was like constantly in and out we might take something and bring it Then we go back to this. Then we might go down and bring oursel. And then they used their code. Like I said, they would bring the coat, bring the coat this side, turn this way, and bring the coat back. Come back this way. Come up. His head will disappear. He'll sneak this way and push the button. His head will come out. Then he'll grab his head up like this. Then he'll throw like this. He'll worm. It was like a worming and he'll hit a button over here and worm right down. Stop again. It was And it was constant angles and constantly. It was constantly like this. and you know playing with stuff like I guess from Panama I guess. Right. Right. That was the gist of what they were doing. Wow. Okay. I'm I'm doing something I haven't done probably since the seventh grade. So, but I see No, I see the picture. I see I understand stuff. That's the basis. The the hands, the wiggle, the neck, and the stop. That's the basic form moves in between. Whatever you want to do in between is up to you. Okay. So, and he like he like moving stuff. He like moving stuff out the way and open up desk and turning this way and grabbing stuff and like this and he would he would take something out the sky and then he'll smoke something. He'll blow up like this and press himself inflate again. Then he'll break down like this. His like a doll and then and then he'll come up like this and his eyes go up in his head and he'll move around like this like a come like like Frankenstein like come out of like that. He was doing [ __ ] like that. It so okay couple thoughts it'd be a thousand years to explain all this. A couple thoughts I just have right now. It's in my Okay. In my perspective, it's interesting when you you're talking about the the this neck head roll. It reminds me because again, you know what I when I'm watching how I got into dance stuff in the 2000s, late later 2000s. It reminds me of almost the neck isolation that is a very became very popular just it seems like an exaggerated form of that like this. Just my opinion. I'm not saying you know. Are you talking about the one that Decoy Manuse does all the time where he's like this? Uh, which he has watched others as well. It's it has become a very popular move. Yeah, that's not new. He just did it he does it in a different formation, right? Um, so that's that's that was one thought I was in my mind. I'm like, huh, I could see the similarity. And then the other two the two questions I'd like to ask you is can you explain what is creeping and worming?

So, you uh well, okay. Well, first of all, creeping I'll answer you guys first. creeping. Uh, creeping was probably one of the one of the foundational pieces of this dance and it's it's always been around. I can't remember a time when I ever saw this dance where creeping wasn't a part of the dance. So, as a solo artist, creeping was used if if you were say you were at a party and you were dancing, you were doing social dance and your record came on and there was someone in the party that you wanted to go against. Well, you turned to that person and you pointed them out. Boom. And then as that person turned, you both started creeping towards a point in the room and it was generally the center of the room and then the circle formed around you. So what I'm explaining to you now is what we call battling. That's how we did our battles. You called someone out, they met you in the center of the room. The circle formed around you. So then people asked, "Well, people were all on top of you and crowding you." No, because as the dancers moved, the people around them knew that the circle moved with the dancers. So, as they moved out, you know, as we danced, they moved out. As we got closer, they came in closer. Right. And it was different because everything now it's more orchestrated. So now it's like, okay, you got 10 seconds to do this. After you're done, then you get 10 seconds. That wasn't a battle for us. We battled each other at the same time. At the same time. at the exact same time. I ask how do you determine a winner? Well, let me tell you this. If the party was on if the party was Friday night, by Monday morning, everybody knew who won or lost. So, reputations were lost and gained this way. Now, mind you, we didn't have the technology that you have, but we had telephones, people talking, people people talking. So, it was either done that way where it was random or if there was a social event going on like a dance or anything like that. The word got around that this person from this school wanted was going to go against that person from this school on a on a Friday night, right? Well, those two people showed up, but so did everyone else. So, we figured out who were the winners and who were the losers at the same time. So, our concept of battle is different than the concept of battle right now. It's not the same. We did. It's absurd because because when you think about a real battle, it's all happening at the same time, right? It's not planned out. No, it's not planned. No, it's not planned. Well, and and even even even if it is, it's not like it it isn't orchestrated like Yeah. So So when we watch a battle today, for us that's like foreign because that's for us that's not considered an actual battle. It's like a like Dana uses this word all the time, gladiator sport. Well, sport is the key thing. It's like so you had people that played football, baseball, basketball. Well, the art was our sport. So we practiced and we trained just like the athletes did and that was just our sport. That didn't mean that booaloos didn't play sports and the people who played sports didn't boo. It's just that the concept was exactly the same. So that's one form of how creeping came. The other form was when the dance transitioned from this thing called street dance onto the stage which necessitated groups. Creeping was your enter was your entrance and your exit off the stage. That's it. There was that's it. That's all creeping was it it was nothing more than that. So it there was just not enough content in that one move for it to be a style. Okay. It's a move. It's a move. It's all it is. It's a move. It's just a move. Is is it when when someone is creeping? Is there always that pause or can is someone is is there not doesn't need to be a pause when you're creeping? Well, by the well in the beginning, well, going back to head snatching before the the whole animation piece of it took place. Uh, it was it was more of a of a of just a movement, a natural walk and a glide. But then when the animation part came in, you could go boom boom, right? creep, right? Then you're like, or you could go boom boom boom because that's what I saw. That's when I heard of the term creeping, the videos that would pop up would be people and I'm I'm guessing the videos were from Bugaloo dancers oraloo of people they're doing like this this they're coming in like even uh maybe like the movie breakin which like Taco and he's like kind of coming into the cipher that look was that would you say creeping? Yes, that's what that's what creeping is. And everybody has their own but there's not a style there's not a style of dance that precedes bugaloo where there's not a version of creeping in it. You you you can name any of them. There is a version of creeping in it. It's it's probably the number one move that's been around from the beginning up till now and it probably always will be especially if there's a concept of a battle involved. Do you would you say the concept of a battle and creeping come from the 70s in Baloo or is this from your past? Oh no, this is No, this this was before that. No, no, creeping has been creep creeping was around before the 70s. Okay. It's it's a it's been through history. It's probably the, you know, it's probably I would say and and and Danny, you can correct me if I'm if I'm wrong. I would say that it's that is probably the the move that's been around longer than any other interest. So yeah. Okay. So creeping um according to our elders and towards our interviews. So I saw creeping when I was in the seventh grade. It was a group called the soulsteppers and the mechanical movements they used to creep but I didn't know where it came from. I just thought it was cool. It wasn't until recently just in the last several years in research that we found out where our creeping comes from. And uh Jarente has a thing called uh you must learn one or two. I'm not you must learn one or two. And he says cuz they're older than us there. He's actually sec second generation. Um he um said that he was watching the Disney Channel one time and they had these playing cards that had hands right legs in them and they were moving like this forward. And he said he saw that and he turned around and turned that into creeping. And if I'm not mistaken, I think the seven dwarfs got something where they're kind of moving like that, too. And they're moving. It's the moving forward part, right? So, for whatever reason, Jared Rente took that move. Even though the cards were moving like this, right? They took that style and he came with the with the creeping which which his was more like because there was no pose. It was just freezing. So one of the effects of creep creeping is when you the whole purpose of the dance is is the illusion to look unreal and to look it's illusion. So when they would creep the uh they would stop every time you creep you stop. It wasn't a hit. I've been hitting so long I don't even know how to stop freeze regular but you freeze and you you freeze you stop because one of the reasons another reason was part of Jason Argonauts but I won't go into that now but yeah the creeping goes back to Jerry Rente which I believe is 197 because before that the guys for him wasn't they weren't creeping so I think 72 is a date when and his he said his influence was the cards the cards marching and him and his boy him and his friend Michael Enox and Albert was that before that probably in the late60s They stick to Creepy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Creeper has been Oh, he correct me. He fact checked me. Who was doing Creeper before them? No, no, they were doing it, but they were doing it that time. Oh, yeah. Cuz Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cuz um he's right because Jerry started dancing in ' 67. I'm going by Yeah, he's right. Okay. I got my fact checker here. So, if I'm right, I tell him to fact because I want to be accurate. I have no problem. Okay. So, it was before. Okay. See what Well, I heard that's one of 67 68. Well, well, well, we know it was done between 67 and 72. Okay. Got it. Okay. Okay. Like I said, we're not going to be active on the dates, you know. Okay.

And then uh Damn, I there's two thoughts I'm having. One is you mentioned Jerry's second generation. So, what is first generation? Who is first generation? Uh the first generation would be a guy, a gentleman by the name of Donald Matthews, better known as Duck. He would be our Don Camelot, our cool herk. Wow. He that's our uh person. We never say the word create. He innovated because not one no one person creates something. Something's created over a period of time. Even God. And how long did it take God to create the earth? Six days. Six. Even God. Our creator just took six days to create the earth. So nobody creates everything at one time. Nice. And so he innovated and through him he evolved. So duck pirate. So Duck Far is the Bugaloo. Duck is the first person, but before him was a group called Pirate and the Easy Walkers, and uh LT was their leader, but they weren't Booaloo. They were doing the Ditalian. They were doing were they dital Italian and Bulu were boo. But it wasn't like what Bugaloo would like duck basically was they Yeah, they mainly just did the Dalian and um other social dances. Other social dances and the D own unique move. So they would do some stuff. But it wasn't it wasn't really developed yet. Were they doing ro my Were they doing the stuff that the dude the uh J Jason was No, it wasn't Jason. Your uh um Drake your your class. No, no, no. Drake is Drake. Uh no, we're talking about before that. Drake, they weren't doing movements like Drake. This leads up to what Drake cuz Drake started I met Drake in 72 in junior high school, right? The guys we're talking about, Duck, he graduated in 1970 from Fremont High School and he started dancing in I think him and uh Jerry Winy started around the same time. They both started in ' 67 Baloon. But there's some guys older than them called when he's talking about pirate and easy walkers and they were doing social dance mixed in with James Brown mixed in with social dances. But they have one specific move called the dietalian which is the grandfather of the shamrock. You know you see people now shamrocking like this and like this. That was the grandfather move of the shamrock. And so what happened was Duck, who was the first guy who innovated this dance, he incorporated that. So let me tell you, I'm glad you brought this leads to this right now. So Duck, Donald Matthews, rest in peace, he's gone now. He's the first person I think him and Jerry Rich are simultaneously creating movies at the same. Duck. What happened was in 196 in the 70s he used to be at the the parties cuz first Balong whatever it was it started in the house parties. It hadn't came out in the open. It was inside a house the house and so what happened was everybody was doing the mashed potatoes the James Brown all the social dance escape and so was he. So imagine you know how old Dirty Bastard is. You know how old Dirty Bastard acts? How animated old Dirty Bastard is. That's how Duck was. He was just like old Dirty Bastard. always doing something crazy. He was he was just like the clown around. So what happened was he saw his mother or somebody took him to an African class and it was some Africans dancers dancing and they were rolling their chest. They were wearing their chest around. He took that move and incorporated with his dancing. And then another thing he did was there's a show he's come on between 1967 and called Hillet. Hillet. Yeah. There's a show in Chicago called Hillet. And the star of that show was named Crazy Herald. And he the guy named Crazy Hero should throw his hands up real fast, real fast, like boom, boom, boom, boom. So all the guys I interviewed in Oakland said they saw that guy named uh Crazy Herold on that show in Chicago called Hillet. They adapted that hand movement. Duck adapted a hand movement from Harold. He took the roll from um um from the African dancers and then he was already throwing his head around and stopping. That was who he did. That's how he was. He just I don't know where he got the freeze and the hit, but he that you see the evolution. He would throw his head around. He'd always stop and he'd throw his hands out from Crazy Herald. He'd do the roll from the African dancers and he took the shamrocks. He took the dietalian from LTM who were older than him. He mixed them all together and that's how the style started forming. So when he started doing they start moving away from the James Brown and Mashed potatoes, he start doing that and people saw that like and you know the word is people in the word, oh man, did you see that guy booaloo? He be booooing and because you know you never you never name yourself. People name you. It doesn't work that way. You don't say I'm a book. Everybody names you and that name keeps coming around for 50 years. Baloo keeps recycling but this is the first time it was attached to a dance with that type of movement. So now Duck is doing something totally different nobody's seen before. He's throwing his hands up. He's wiggling around. He's throwing his hand around. He's stopping. He's doing the um early um dital Italian which is like the shamrock. So what happens is he goes to high school and he tries out for the mascot. So everybody knows about a mascot. You dress up in a outfit and you do some you mess around with the cheerleaders. You act like a clown. You you get the crowd hyped up. All mascots did this. Wow. But when he got in the mascot thing, the the band is playing this. He's going boom boom boom boom boom boom. It's the it's the school band. Boom. Now the other mascot is acting stupid and doing some clown stuff. He don't know. All of a sudden, Duck's going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Then he starts doing boom. Then he starts doing a titanium. Boom. Then he turns into a creature like a monkey and then he starts whole [ __ ] with tiger cuz he's a tiger. The tiger. Yeah. He started doing a tiger and he was he was in a tiger outfit, but he was imitating other creatures. And he wasn't diarama yet. That hadn't came. He wasn't trying to do it. He was just acting silly. He was turning into creatures and he was boom. And nobody ever seen that before. So everybody's come to see this guy named Duck because nobody knew what that was. So after two or three games, everybody finally caught on. So all the mascots start doing it and they start taking what he did and did their own variety. So everybody was doing that some form of ham throwing their neck around, stop posing, throwing it thing around that that shamrock and created and turned into some kind whatever their their school was. They would turn into that animal and that type of This is crazy. I know I'm talking I fast trying to get a lot of information. Look, that's how it started. It's just just why and he didn't know he was the creatures. He didn't wasn't trying to animate. That's where animation was being born cuz the mascot he he wasn't trying to do that. That wasn't the next generation till they start naming it. But that's how that's how it was born. Animation and booong

together. That's how it started. Yeah. He didn't do claymation like the technique, right? Didn't do that yet. But he was imitating characters and characters that the idea of image characters and including characters into his dance. This throw the neck around, and can you imagine a band at halftime? Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They were like, "What the hell?" He's throwing boom, boom, boom. You know, that seems old now. Back then, that was exciting. Nobody ever seen that before. I just got, I like that's the first. That's how it started. I get excited. I get excited when I talk about people. This is, this is, this is the real truth. This, and I'm, and I need him to fact-check me because, like I said, he's doing the film on the film constantly. So I'm trying to remember stuff from 50, 60 years ago. It's just so fascinating hearing the story of how someone, it is, they're dressed up in a mascot outfit or someone is dressed up as an animal, a creature moving in a way that's already trippy. They're like, "Whoa, like this dude, he can dance. And what is he doing?" Like, that's crazy. And he's imitating. Like, it's crazy to see. It's almost like people fighting with knives for 1500 years, and all of a sudden, somebody comes with a gun. Nobody's ever seen a gun before, and he shoots the guy and kills the guy across. And everybody's like, "What just happened?" It was like a slaying like that because the other guy didn't know what to do because they're just doing stupid stuff, getting the crowd hype and dancing and being like the cheerleaders. And all of a sudden, this guy comes out with these hands and throwing his neck around and stopping. And there was no jumping yet. And then he's, he's turning like the Italian, and then he turns into a monster and starts coming at the guy. So the objective was to make the crowd laugh. Oh, I missed that part. The objective was to make the crowd laugh at you. That was the initial objective to make the crowd and make you humiliate you. And that's, and it got to the point where people didn't watch the game anymore. They just came to watch the mascot. So that's how I was born. Am I accurate? Am I accurate? I need my fact check because I don't want to be off.

That is very interesting. And I'm just referring now. I'm thinking about currently animators now who humor plays a role in their performance. And hearing how the, it seems like in the beginning, there were, it was people mascots again, doing the movements, acting out characters to get the people to laugh, enjoy the movement, the performance that was happening. And that was another thought. Oh man, when you were just talking about, but animated, say, would you have considered what Duck was doing animated? Would people say he's animated? Yeah. I, yeah, it was move. It wasn't called that, but yes, it was the, it was the birth of animation without, without the name. Birth of the fact, the fact, the fact that you would morph into the creatures that brings in an animated category that which we know now to be animated. Yes. All right. Okay. Got it. Sorry. Continuing. Or I would be like, that would be the caterpillar. The butterfly was coming next. Wow. Okay. It's taking shape. It's coming. Okay. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's coming next. So everybody in their mom was, that's all the people at the schools were doing. That's that, that was a vibe. And that was called Balon. That was Balon right there. Those, those set of moves. This is where it gets tricky because those set of moves were called Balon. But as he evolved with all these styles, they just still kept the same umbrella. Yeah. So that's, I just wanted to throw that in there. The umbrella was Bugaloo. Yes. Yeah. Well, the Pacific movements were Baloo like, like, but, you know, they had the Baloo has been around forever. You had James Brown Baloo, you had Baloo on Broadway, you have Bugaloo bands in New York, you have Baloo Puerto Rico. That name has been probably used a hundred times. But this is the first time the word Baloo was used attached to this type of movement, like a funk, like, like what now? It, it'd be the first time it was attached to a dance to funk music specifically. Well, wasn't funk music then. Funk, funk hadn't came out yet. Well, '67. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. '67 Cold Sweat, James Brown. I apologize. Yeah, that you're right. You're right. I mean, the band was, I don't even know what style that's, I guess that's a band in the school. You're right. I don't know what I'm thinking here. He's right. Right. So, Booaloo is attached to the dance and Okay. Yeah. Yeah. To, to, to the me. First it was before it was records. What was records inside the uh parties? And then it went on the field with the live u with the school band. And eventually later on, it went live bands on stage. But that's another story down the line. But it was a record player inside the house. And then on the field, it was a live band. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's funny. Later on, he has a story where he, he went to MLM right in '77. That went on for a long time. They got to the point where you said, where people had to try. It got so popular that people tell them your story about that. Well, and you can go back to what you're going to ask me earlier after that. Okay.

Let me just say this. I'm 66 years old. Okay. Um, I'm not sure how old Dana is. You what? What do you? I'm near. I'm around your side. I'm around that. Right. So when Dana was speaking about the guys outside of the window and the movement that they were doing, see, I, I, I knew what those movements were because that was part of the whole head snatching thing. That was part of that. So I knew what that, I knew what it was. So what I was hoping you were doing as you were listening was you were connecting as a dot from some of the things that were done in Bugaloo to some of the things that he described. Because what we're talking about is my perspective of this dance coming from West Oakland. Dana speaking of his perspective of the dance coming from East Oakland and then Berkeley. So when he spoke about the hop not being created yet, well, I had seen the hop because we have, we have pioneers in West Oakland as well. And so in West Oakland, we call it the Kenny Chambers hop. And Kenny Chambers is a pioneer. He's a pioneer of the arm swing. He's a pioneer of the belly roll. He's a pioneer of the hop. So this is Okay. So wait, Duck is from Duck is from East Oakland. No, no. I'm West Oakland. No. Duck is from Duck is from East Oakland. Duck is East Oakland. And you just mentioned someone named who did you not mention? Kenny Chambers. Kenny is from West Oakland. Yes. So, okay. So, this is interesting. Now, this makes me Okay. So, here's Go. No, go ahead. Go ahead. I was gonna say because Yeah. Yeah. I think for me also, I've been emphasizing or at least every time I think of Oakland, I forget to remember the sections of Oakland and how things separately. And I'm always kind of like, oh, Oakland in general, right? And that's, and that's how most people think. And so here's the interesting part is that most of the people who live, most of the people who grew up in East Oakland moved from West Oakland to East Oakland. So there's a lot of the style that came from West Oakland that they brought to East Oakland with them. So with that being said, I, I, I knew what the movements were that he was speaking of. I had seen the arm swing. I had seen the, I had seen the neck roll. I had seen all of that with the inclusion of the hop. Now, Kenny Chambers is a pioneer or a contributor to the head snatching style. Okay. So that, so for us in West Oakland, that's where he came from. So we had him, we had do, we had him, we had Donald Jones. Okay. Donald Jones is an original member of Granny and the Robbitroys. The Granny and the Robbits were two groups put together as one. Two of the original members were from West Oakland and they grew up in West Oakland and they had their own style, the whole nine. So there's a whole list of what we consider to be our pioneers and our, um, I try to stay away from the word create based upon what his definition, innovative. So we had our own set. And the interesting thing about it is that East Oakland and West Oakland very seldom cross paths. So if you lived in East Oakland, you didn't, you couldn't just arbitrarily come to West Oakland. It was a territorial thing. When I was in West Oakland, you couldn't just arbitrarily go to East Oakland unless you knew someone and you got a pass. So, I did, I didn't learn this dance by coming to East Oakland. I, everything I learned was contained in West Oakland. Mind you, geographically, East Oakland is about 15, 20 times larger than West Oakland. Okay. So, I, I didn't start venturing out to East Oakland until I was in high school. And that's when I really started to see some of the other stuff that had evolved. I didn't see posing for the first time until 1973, '74. And so these were people who had transitioned from head snatching and they transitioned into this thing called posing. So I don't, I don't know where it came from or when it came. Everybody lays claim to what they claim to what they lay claim to. But that's where this whole thing gets to be confusing because depending on where you grew up, you know, that's where and how you learn the dance. So, a lot of the history that Dana speaks about, I, I, I know of and I've heard of it. Some of it I don't. Just like a lot of the history that I may speak of from West Oakland. Some of it he's heard of, a lot of it he may have not. So I don't want to confuse, I don't want to confuse you by trying to by totally trying to separate everything because at, at the end of the day, it all falls up under one umbrella. Bugaloo. Exactly. Okay. Does that, does that, does that make sense? Yes. Yes. The separate, it's the influence. The west has. West Oakland was, there were already dancers in West Oakland. People were traveling to East. There was an influence from west to the east. Um, there's also innovators on both. So, so by that time, there was, by that time, there was cross, by that time, there was cross influence. Okay. And there's innovators on both sides. Yes. East Oakland and West Oakland. Okay. Okay. Here when I know you mentioned Okay. And Baloo is the, the dance. It's under Bugaloo. If umbrella turn, you said, uh, Dana, you mentioned about animation, Baloo being together and then separating and coming back. So what I mean, what I meant by that is in the beginning, Duck, Donald Matthews, Donald Matthews, better known as Duck, he didn't know. He, most people who stumble onto a dance, they never do it on purpose. It's always an accident. Tap dancing was based like that. Uh, I remember talking to Don Camelot long time ago. Um, when, uh, he was, I think it was that Maverick Fight was telling about and he said he didn't know how to dance, so he would do the funky chicken and start pointing and laughing and grabbing his hat. And I think the only movie was, was a freeze. That was it. And he didn't even have a name for it. It's just what it was. It wasn't to innovation. To different people, evolutionized and people started giving names like the Uncle Sam, the Witcher Way, the Alpha. And then somebody called it locking. Then he got, he told me himself, he didn't name all that, but he ran with it because he said it worked for him. But he had the beginning stage. So everything works like that. You stumble on something by accident, and somebody else gives it a name, and next thing you know, it has a life of its own. But this is the same way with Duck, you know, he wasn't trying to animate. He wasn't even thinking about it. He was just dancing, trying to group and be, 'cause he was like an old dirty bastard, like a comedian. He was always trying to be different. Like I said, he took the hands from, um, Crazy Hero from the, uh, highlight show. He took the worm from the African dancers. He, he already was doing the neck and this freeze. I'm not sure where he got that from. And then he had the, uh, the dital, which is an early version of the shamrock. And in between, he would do different creatures. And so what happened was unintentionally, the next generation comes with Jerry Rente, which is Albert with OnePlus One, which is Jerry Rente, Michael Enoch's Albert. And they're the Wayne. They took it to another level. They start taking the, uh, moves from the, uh, movies, Seven Boys of Sinbad, Golden Boys of Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts. And those were all done by Ray Harry. The original stop-motion person was Willis O'Brien. He did all the stop-motion in '38, month, the '30s. And then, uh, I think his men, his protege was Ray Harryhausen. So when he came with the stop-motion, Jerry did two things. He took stuff from the movies, the stop-motion, and he took stuff from cartoons. And they, that's when the name animation started floating around. So what they were doing, they were mixing the animation, kind of how the Drake was that. That was a lineage, you know, they were, um, you know, they were doing the, you know, he was worming because he was called the worm. He was worming. And then he might stop and break down and start doing a character or something and turn into, you know, they would turn into characters. He had two styles. He wormed and he danced. And then he would, they would turn into characters. And they still film. I mean, they're old now, they can't do anymore where they're, they're making this monster, knowing they're doing it. It was the older style of, uh, the dinorama because there's a newer style when Tony Nome and McCain later and Ted them, they took it to a whole another level. But that's another conversation. But what I'm saying is they were imitating the monsters from, um, 20 Million Miles and all that stuff. And they were, what was it called? 20 Million Miles to Earth. 20 minutes. You know, when they're moving all like this, and they're, they're all like, you know, they, you know, they're moving all like this. They were, they were trying to, they were imitate. They weren't, well, I don't think the posing came in yet. They was, they were doing the stopping. And they took what Duck was doing to another level and combined it with book. And that's where the animation and diarama came in. And then other books, they saw that some ran with the animation. Some wanted to do just the dancing part. And some just want the diarama part. And some mixed it together. It depends who that, who that's how I got picked apart. I hope I answered that right.

So, so, so to clarify, to make, I want to make sure I'm on the same, I'm on the right page. So it sounds like Duck, people was he first was giving a form of animation unintentionally, unintentionally giving people saying or feeling he's looking animated. Then then Jerry saw him and said, "We're gonna take this to another level." Jerry and Albert, Albert and Michael Enos, I'm gonna take the characters from Ray Harryhausen's movies, the stop-motion. Right. And take the cartoons and do that style and mix it all together. And that's where the word animation, that's when it started floating around. That's when it started to float around. Okay. And it seems that Jerry, well, Albert and, you know, Michael Enoch, OnePlus One, they seem to be the most popular group doing and sharing this term. I, because I understand the idea that maybe there were other people that were watching the Sinbad, but it seems like OnePlus One was the group to spread it. Is that true? Would that, would that be or Well, not so much spread it because at that time there were different, see, once Jerry Rich got it, that became their thing. That's what they were specialized in. But once Baloo and animation, remember I told you, split apart, people start picking apart what styles they want. They did tot styles had nothing to do with animation. They start creating their own stuff. There was spin-offs. Somebody take, might one take one move and make a whole style into it. You know, anytime you have a dance in any urban community, once people see it, they have their own interpretation. Before you know it, it's out of control, but the foundation is still the same, which is illusion and stop. That's the common thing. It's a stop illusion and you're dancing. That's the thing that never changes.

Let me correct, let me correct myself. I feel like I want to make a correction. Of my, I'm sorry. Okay. Why is that OnePlus One is, why people are referencing for animation for Jerry innovating? Why are the reason why? Because they're the first. They're the first ones to take the the creatures from Ray Harryhausen's movies that are stop-motion. And we know stop-motion is frame to frame. So what they were doing is imitating and bringing those creatures' movements to light in their dancing. And that's a form of an, that's an ultimate form of animation. And that's why so Oakland started talking about this one plus one, Jerry, his name started to spread. Yeah. And they were like, okay, this dude, he's doing this. And then he, they, he would probably say, oh, I'm looking at the Sinbad. I'm looking at the Okay. Okay. So then he was looking, he was doing two things. He was looking at the cartoons. I believe he referenced, um, what was those cartoons where the guy flies off? The superheroes. Oh yeah, the rope man. Rope man. He looked at that style. That's why he came the worm because he, he was good at the worm. And that's more of the Booaloo style when you start worming because that lineage comes from Duck. That's more of the the Bugaloo side of it. And then he did that. That was one style he did. And he also would do the di Italian because that was handed down, which is a form of another form of, um, the shamrock. But then they decided to go another direction is, um, but they were really going, it was more of the older style anime because when when Tony Nome and Ted went in them, they were more, that's when the posing came in. That's when it was another, and it was like a different level. It was like really, it looked just like where they would actually do the big movements like the monster. I think Jerry was doing something, he's, he's yelling, he's going across thing like a monster, the diorama of monsters. Okay. Okay. So, Duck, Jerry, and then you're saying it evolved with Tony Nuome. No, they didn't come yet. There was another generation after that. Well, same time. Uh, this is when Haml them came in. And this is what he's, when Hamill was the guy. Now, I don't know who came with it first because we don't, we don't know. But Hamill was the guy, Anthony Hamill. They call him Hamill. He graduated in '72 from Fremont. Correct me if I'm wrong. He, he modified this. He had a V chest. He had an unusual chest. When he would wear him, it just looked like he had three chests. And he'd throw the hands out. And he's the first one to get down and jump to the side. And nobody ever seen that before. Now, I don't know if it happened with Kenny Chambers and him at the same time, but about '71, '72, he was dancing because he was a mascot also. And he would get down, he would jump to the side. And he was used, he was, she's the first one to start shifting around. And he would do a lot of, he would do a lot of just the stopping like this, but it wasn't a pose yet. It was just a stop. He'd always stop like this. Everything he do, he would stop like this. He'd throw his hands and he'd stop like this. And he wormed. He turned, shifted. So he was basically advancing with Jerry Rente. Not, he was advancing act. He didn't take on the animation style and the anorama that Jerry rented, but he was taking from Duck. Remember I told you they went two different ways? Some people wanted to go with the animation style, and some people just wanted to go to string Bugaloo without any panama mana. They just wanted to do it raw and fluent, right? Because everybody probably because everybody couldn't do it. They chose to do the stuff where they just throw the hands and just keep stopping. Uh, interesting. Okay. They would follow the, they would follow the lineage of Duck creatures, but not, not the stop motion because there's a difference between the creatures moving around kind of and the stop motion, a specific look that they have when they're moving. So, I think that it's really complicated to answer because it start going two different ways, right? I, I know it's very complicated. I hope that's making sense, right? No, no. When, when would you say that people were really giving the So clarify for me, when were people or who was involved with the stop motion effect? You mean what person was stop? Yes. So first it was, first it was Jerry Rente, Albert Mil, and Michael Enox, and him. They're from, was '67 to '72, '73. And then it came around again around '77, '78 when Tony Nuome and Ted Williamson came around. And they took it to, huh? '74. Ted was before. Ted. Ted. When did Ted start dancing? Right after Jerry. But then when he started doing stop motion, he was doing that right after. Then. So after Jerry, he said, okay, he just fact-checked me. After Jerry Rent and Ted Williams came in. And so another thing happened when the, in '74, that's when the pose came in. So when people start posing, that took it to another level because already when you're stop motion, you moving around, it's already kind of amazing. But when you're posing and you're moving, it is a vibrate. So it took the stop motion. So when Ted and Tony Nome start doing it, it took the stop motion to a whole another thing because of D, because you're vibrating, posing, and you're moving like a monster as opposed to stomping, moving like. So it took it to a whole another level. And that is what the current, the current, I would say, currently, I feel in the current, like, like in the climate of animation now, that is what is aimed for. I would say by, uh, most animators of the stop-motion effect, the way you're describing it, that Ted Williams, uh, innovated with currently. And so that's interesting. Okay. And also, I think it's interesting to hear about Duck because to my knowledge, and I think majority knowledge, when people talk about animation, it stops at stop motion. When people talk about, okay, animation, how far does it go? It seems to stop at Sinbad. But you're sharing again that, you know, Duck being in the mascot, it was still there. There was more history. There wasn't just like what you're sharing. There was more of a, it evolved and it kind of skipped over because like I said, once book came out, it started started together, then separated, and then separated. And then Tony Nome and Ted Williams, Ted them, they brought it back in a whole another form. And the reason why it looked more amazing because now the pose is in. So when you, when you pose and move, Sinbad, when you pose and send back, that takes you to another level where Jerry, they were moving, but they were just stopping. They, what posing hadn't started yet. So they're stopping and they're doing what they're doing. They might turn them on, but all they're doing is stopping. So it's the first part. But when the posing came in, that took it to another level. Right. It's getting more. That's where the real animation came, like getting more frames. The pose changed everything. I see. Okay. Uh, that's what he was talking about when he went from this and when it went to the poll, when you went, when he went to the poll, it took every, it took it to another level. Wow. Okay. All right. Where? So, uh, Wow. When it was posing was added, what was this around? What year? Uh, from when I, from for our interview, '74. Um, possibly late '73, possibly '73. '73. So the first person that we know on the side was, uh, the Black Messengers. Yes. Or the Mechanical Devices. We don't know what member in there did it. But I, the story I heard is they were having a contest to see who could stop the hardest. And the other person said, "I can stop harder than you. I can stop harder than you." And it kept getting harder and harder. Somebody, "What about this?" Oh, [ __ ] What kind of stuff was that? And that's the urban myth I heard. But we know that it was born in '74 with the Black Messengers. And once that happened, and I said, I don't know if it happened simultaneously at the same time, but the, the ma Black Messengers came with the hard pose in '74. And from that, everybody started posing. And it took everybody's animation to another level because now you, because now your just your stop is animated. You know, before you do what you're going to do, you might turn around, you like this, and grab some up like this, and turn this way, and you might stop like this. And you know, yes, you're moving like that now instead of just stopping.

Okay, speaking of the Black Messengers, was there any influence from LA to the Black Messengers or influence from LA to Oakland? Was there What's the relationship between Oakland and LA and also the Black Messengers and LA? Okay, you make sure you fact-check me if I'm wrong on this. So, there's a couple of connections. So in 1978, uh, and I believe he's on Cool Boy show, talking about this Robot Prince who was incredible. Robot, you know, he, I think he could be, he does mime, he does the mime stuff like this, and he's real good at that. He, he's, um, he does all that stuff where he brings stuff down like that. He was already an expert at that. So I guess around 1978, he was at a place called the Disco Train in LA somewhere, and he ran into Boo, but he didn't know it was Boo. And he saw Boo dancing. And all of a sudden, Boo was dancing. He did this, pow. He exploded like pow. And, and, uh, Robot Prince tells the story like he thought he was tricking, higher, like tricking on something. He said, "Man, what was that?" So in 1978, I believe, I'm not correct me if I'm wrong, at the Disco Train, they had an interchange. They met each other. And so Boo showed, um, Robot Prince how the pose went. Robot Prince got that pose. So as opposed to doing this, and how he usually does like this, he started adding a pose to his thing, and it took his [ __ ] to another level. So that was the first exchange right there. Uh, the ne, the other obvious, um, situation is in 1977, our what we call the Black Messengers here. You guys know it's the Mechanical Devices. They were on Chuck Barrer's, uh, Gong Show twice. And you could clearly see them stepping and you can clearly see them posing. And that's in 1977. That's even before Boo even got here. So as far as that, that, that situation, that ends that, that situation. Okay. I think, uh, uh, am I right? You need to back up something that that Yes. And, um, Granny and Robbitroy Inc. were also on the Gong Show in '77. That's right. And they weren't hitting as hard as the Messengers, but there's a little. You could see them doing a little bit of the hitting there. The When they say pose, by the way, that's they mean with the hit. Yeah. Right. Because instead of just posing, right, like how we might think when they talk about posing, they mean with the hit. Yeah. And so, um, so there was that. And then Boo, I think actually went down there in '76, but I don't remember, I don't recall like who he had shown or who he had talked to or whatever. So it's around between the years of like '76 to '78, the Bay Area was going down to LA and making these small little connections and influences. That's right. And, and keep in mind, the Gong Show was nationally televised. That's That's right. So it was people would have seen it all all across the nation, really. But, you know, people even like, uh, what's his name? Uh, um, Hurdle and Gizmo talk about him all the time. Deuce, right? Deuce said in his song that he saw the Mechanical Device on Gong Show and that was one of his influences. Right. People were seeing them, uh, little bits and pieces in LA. But to answer your question, from LA to the Bay influence, other than locking, I've never heard any of the guys in the Bay Area, especially the older guys like before the '80s, talk about getting anything from LA in terms of Bugaloo, popping, no string, and all that. That was done. That was 1977 on the Gong Show. And, and the other ones move, going to the Disco Train, exchanging with Robot Prince, showing the explosion pose. So, and then, and like I told you, the Messengers, Black Messengers have been posing like that since '73, '74. Had already been posing. So that, that information where it came from is false. Other information is false. That's that's the truth. Okay. Okay. And I, I do know Ro, I mean, I don't know Robot Prince, but I've seen Robot Prince. And he definitely is a lot of people in LA do mention his name when they talk about Robot. And someone that was, I mean, Crazy Robot also adding animation. So hearing that Robot Prince was in contact with Boo, and Boo is from Oakland, I, I can see this. And you could reference that. If somebody wants to reference that, they can ref that. He's on the Cool Boy podcast and he talks about that himself. So somebody wants to hear the facts. He says that himself. And also Boo is on there another time and he referenced it from his perspective. And, and Boo, by the way, just, he's from Richmond originally. And they were doing a style of Bugaloo. They called it robot. Robot. Advanced robot. But once he saw John Murphy from the Messengers, Boo went to Oakland to try and learn Bugaloo, like how they were doing it, 'cause he really liked how clean it was, the hit, all that. 'Cause John Murphy's in the Messengers, right? So, so then Boo took that Messenger style plus probably some Richmond stuff he was doing too. That's what got to Okay, so that's that's how it happened. So Messengers, wow. I can see they definitely had an influence of like you're mentioning Boo, and Boo is connecting to Robot Prince. And also Messengers by influence of, um, Deuce. And I know Deuce is connected with Gizmo. So, and I know Gizmo currently right now, he's really hardcore, you know, and talk about animation and such. Oh yeah, he's, he's passionate for it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, then is one last thing about LA influence and the relationship with Oakland. Would you say that, uh, locking, uh, came, did LA influence Oakland when it comes to locking? Because locking is LA. I can't really answer that because I was never a locker. I don't know how to lock. I mean, somebody else may. I don't know the locking history of the Bay Area. I, I can't answer that. Okay. Got it. My next question would be about struting. Of when did that come about? When did that when did that take place in the name and the style? So struting is just another word for the struting was another word that replaced baloin. It's all the same movement. It just went to another different city. And Granny from Granny Rob, she coined the word shruting. And what it Oh, and what it is is it it was a a fuse of two of a fusion of two different styles because she had two guys, I think Wayne Jackson, her son Tony, and then in the Roller Tro was Donald Jones or Donald Singleton and Alfred Jones. And they put them together and they mixed the style together and they renamed it strutting and modified the movement, but the same basic movement, just, uh, it just went to a different city. San Francisco. San Francisco. Went to San Francisco. But it wasn't to Close Encounters. Got it. When it really changed when they sp that's a whole another conversation. When they sped it up to 45, they came up with the space outfits, the out the spaceships and doing moves nobody ever seen before. And that's what led to our group, de, um, Demons in Mind and the Media Circus. But that's a different question. But she coined it that I were you. I do want to make Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Just for my clarification. Granny and the Robbitro. She was a strut. Her her group was strutter. They were struting. They were strut. They were dancers and she coined it as strutting. But she had two dancers from Oakland that were boooos who joined the dancers. I don't know what San Francisco was calling it before. Was they always calling it before Granny started dancing? What was San Francisco calling it? You probably have to interview a San Francisco guy to know their beginning of their individual history far as what they called it. But we know that when she came from '75, she coined it struting. I don't know what they called it shredding. San Francisco history, but they were doing it. It was a Bugaloo group. They were because again, two West Oakland dancers, the Robbitroids were a West Oakland group before Granny got to them. She saw them, decided she wanted to be their manager and bring them to San Francisco to perform in talent shows and whatever else they were doing. And that's when they started seeing in San Francisco, they started seeing Bugaloo. And then also at the same time, there was a couple of East Oakland dancers like Ben James and Richard Smart Shaba. They had a group called Live Incorporated. And that was around the same time as '75. And so they were doing Buloo's group stuff and solo stuff. But because I think Granny, you know, they, because they were kind of doing a lot of shows because she was their manager, getting in a lot, seen a lot. She called the group stuff shredding. So the group in initially, apparently, the group stuff was mainly referred to as shredding. But over time, as everything changed, you know, San Francisco, just as it spread there, everybody, if you were doing this dance, you were called the strutter, strutter. Got it. And that kind of became the umbrella term and took over the bugaloo term. And of course, they added their own flavor and their own mixture movement of new stuff and took things to a different level. Right. And then they did the, the swinging of the arms and the stepping. They called it in the Fillmore district. That was the Fillmore step. You know, the Fillmore step. The Fillmore isn't a style. It's a step. Well, no. I say the style. So, Fillmore is a Phil. I, I'm from the Bay Area, but I was in a San Francisco group, Demons of the Mind, and later on, Media Circus. Now, so Fillmore is a district inside of San Francisco. Okay. So the group style that Granny called was called struting. As each, as it evolved in different groups, uh, evolved, some dancers would say, "I'm a strutter," and somebody said, "He's doing the Fillmore strut." So let me explain that to you. So he's talking about Ben, who's lemon drop green eyes, kind of looks like me. Yeah. He, Ben, Ben James. It was three guys, I think, that came from San Francisco from Brookfield Village, which is in Oakland, that moved to San Francisco. I think one was, uh, Rob Lo's brother. I forgot his name. Uh, did Jeffrey Malone move there? Or did Jeffrey No. Okay. Uh, Raymond Low and, um, Ben. So Ben was already incredible in East Oakland. He had a style. What, remember I told you about this hand style, right? He evolved it where it was, he had his own style called directing traffic. And he cleaned that style up, and it looked incredible. Wow. And so what happened was, he moved to San Francisco. And when they seen him do that, that was just part of his moves when he did that. They were so impressed. They turned that into that one move. They turned into a whole. It's called the Fillmore strut. There's guys that come out and they'll just do that, or they might, that'll be their basis, and then they'll robot and hit on you, and they'll get back to that. So he created just for him moving to there. That was his move. And they end up calling that the Fillmore strut. And to show you how dancers move around, he moved to Kansas. And people saw him out there. And a skinny comedian saw him and picked up his style. And the comedian got famous. And he started doing it. His name is Eddie Griffin. Okay. Eddie Griffin flipped it around. He do it just like Ben, but he flipped it around. So, it's gonna show you how people move and styles exchange and interchangeable and things get fused together, right? Because Live Incorporated also was a half, uh, Oakland, San Francisco group. So they fused the styles together. And the moves got a little more more advanced because Oakland was kind of the last group was Derek and Company. And they were kind of the last of the old groups. And the moves were getting limited. So the San Francisco guys started coming with different varieties, different formations, different ideals, coming out of time machines. And they were mixing styles together. So the style was struting, but when you came out on your own, you were struting, or you were doing the Fillmore strut within the struting. It took on a life of its own. So from the queen, from the group, from the dancing to the Fillmore strut. Okay. And that's how that happened. Got it. And I, Is that clear? Did that explain that clear enough to you? Yeah, it, it, Yes. How, how it, see again, the, the lines, the traces, inspiration of of Oakland, the members of people being from Oakland and being part of Granny, Granny's group, um, the Fillmore Strut again. So Oakland still being, you know, being a source of. So let me, let me, let me tell you. I talk about this all the time, and it's gonna make sense. I always talk about the cake. Come on, the cake. The cake. So I'm just gonna make this year up. So in 1958, if somebody makes, it's a cake. And nobody's ever seen a cake before. Oh my god, what is that? It's called a cake. We never seen anything like that. So now everybody knows what a cake is. It's a viral. If it was such a thing in '58, viral. Two years later, somebody makes an upside down cake. Oh my god, we never seen that before. Another year, somebody makes a, a chocolate fudge cake. And last but not least, five years later, somebody makes a red velvet cake. Oh my god, you got to hear about this red velvet cake, man. It's incredible. It's something new. No, it's not new. It's still a cake. All you did was add it on fudge, banana, red velvet. The cake doesn't change. It just takes different forms. So remember I talk about the Fillmore strut and how San Francisco do the Fillmore and all that. Yeah. Think back, Crazy Crazy Harold, right? Duck, right? It's all right. Right. You see what I'm saying? Crazy Harold, who's from Hillet, from, um, Chicago, '67, to Duck, and all the other dancers. Philadelphia, to Phil, is it Philadelphia? Yeah. To highlight. I'm sorry. I apologize if I make a mistake. Forgive me. He says highlight was in Philadelphia. The, it was a show in Philadelphia because all these shows are coming back out again. The scene, uh, all these dance shows are coming back out again. So from that Harold to Oakland, to Duck, to, uh, to Anthony Ham, he modifying Ben from Brookfield took it to a whole another level. Moved to San Francisco. They called it the Fillmore Strut. It became a standard move. Wow. It's like the wheel. You can't reinvent it. It keeps getting modified. So that's, that's the connection. Okay. So it's just the same movement. It's just modified. A different name and modified. That's all it is. Okay. And it spreads like fire in every generation, every every area. Renames it what they want to call it. But you can't get around from the foundation. You can't get away from that. You can't reinvent the wheel. Reinvent the wheel. And Richmond called it roboting. They called it roboting. You know, other parts of the bay called it popping. Sacramento called it, um, uh, they called it oak parking, busting, striking, popping too. They had different names out there. Yeah. So anyways, I didn't mean to get off track. Go ahead. Bryce, you're saying that people were calling it popping? Are you saying people were calling it popping before? Here we go. It's Mike's turn to get giggy. From my, from my understanding, uh, popping was a term that was popularized with, uh, Popping Pete, which or Booaloo Sam saying he, you know, with the pop also. I know LA has pop locking. So you're saying popping was also being described in these, in other areas. Yeah. The, what the, we don't have yet an origin story of like when that word was applied to this dance and who. But we do know that multiple cities from at at least '77, potentially '76, but definitely '77, Sacramento, Hayward, San Jose, East Palo Alto, like all these cities started using popping to describe this dance, which was boo. I, it was changing, evolving, changed to it. Yes. We're talking as far as using the word. It's still the same movement. It evolved to another name. We're talking using the word. Yeah. And of course, it starts evolving. It does look a little different because you're getting, you know, you're moving around. Yeah. But, but that, it's basically all the same foundational movements that have, right? And we're just finding this out recently. We got research and interviews, but Go ahead. Yeah. So if you want to like, you know, I know the EBS have a story of Sam saying he created it in '75 and used the word, but because we don't really have anybody backing that up besides him, it's kind of, and, you know, other things that we've shown that they've been wrong about, it's kind of like I don't know if I trust that. But what I do know is that there's a lot of people in all of these cities that can back up them using the word popping in '77, again, potentially '76, but we're still looking for like that origin. But, um, yeah, that's that's what we know in the Bay Area and Sacramento. What did these cities mean by popping? What did what was the movement that they meant when they said that? So it's, they did hi because the pose, the hard hit was a big part of the dance by that time. It was one of the main parts of the dance. They, of course, a pop, right? It's like that makes sense that they would call that a pop. But it also beca was kind of used like an umbrella term at the same time. So it's a little bit confusing depending on the individual dance. Yeah. But that's why I think that word made sense with the dance because they were, they were doing that hard pose and that hit so much. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, one of the things that happened is, um, with Bugaloo, because it, it gained its popularity during the funk era. And so funk music was a little slower brand of music. So in order to compose and to hit with funk, the entire concept was to create an illusion. So because the music was slower, you had to be more patient and deliberate, and you had to sit in funk music in order to create the illusion. And for me, the difference between that and popping is they're both trying to create an illusion. We did it in a slower pace. Popping does it.

with speed because the music sped up. So it's not the dance that drives the music, it's the music that drives the dance. So as the music sped up, they feel like they can create the same illusion, but they do it with speed.

With ours, it was more deliberate because everything was on the one. So it was boom boom boom boom. Theirs can be boom boom boom boom boom boom because that's what the music dictates. So for me, popping is just an evolved version of Boo.

I see. And I hold that question because I know you want to finish asking a question. Before James Brown came with the one, R&B, soul, and blues was on a two and a four. When James Brown came up, Cold Sweat in 1967, it was on a one. So that allowed you to stop on a one and create illusion. If you know, they take their time and they're doing they're telling the story and it gives you time to create illusions. But when the electro funk came out, think Planet Rock and all that stuff start coming out. I'm not knocking that because that's a new generation. When you pow pow pow, it's good, but it doesn't allow you enough time to create because you're going too fast. But that's just that's their opinion, that's their choice. I'm just saying that's the perspective of OG's, how we thought of it. You know, we don't change. That's the difference between. But go ahead. You can ask the I just want to put that statement in there. Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it.

I was well, my next actually thought was I know you're saying we were uh Bryce you were saying 77, 76 popping the term being spread around different cities, correct? Um, was there waving or tutting being done in these cities around that time? Are any did you see waving and tutting in the Bay Area? Look here, uh, I guess when was when did you see, I guess when did you see waving and tutting? Well, in our era, the the um, the only way it was uh up until like I say up in 79 was just the, you know, the wave. You see, um, there's a clip on um Soul Train, I believe 19, I don't know if it's 78, 79, uh, group called Eclipse. I think it's um, Jeffrey Daniels and Casper and [ __ ] and they got this thing where they got the newspaper and they're waving back, they're waving their body back. That was the only way we did. The only tut we did was like a big tut was like more like this turn and we turn our body. But it wasn't and all the complicated stuff that didn't come into the eight, that didn't come until later to the people he talked about in the the new generation. We didn't do that. Okay. Yeah. The the Oakland was doing a it's the title wave. We did the title wave, right? And that's that's pretty old from what I hear. Like it's real like mid-70s because once they got started doing the wor, they stopped doing the worm. They had to think of a different way to wave because that got old while moving like that. So we got to figure out a new wave. And then that was the next wave that came after that. And by the time we perfected it, Oakland just stopped. They had stopped. By 79, 80, Oakland was done. They had stopped. Bong. But you do see, you do see them do when they do the arms, the swinging the arms, some guys do like a little bit of. Oh, yeah. I guess you're right. I don't think they're intentionally doing it, but they're doing like this. Yeah, I guess you're right. I kind of like Right. Oh, no. I take that back. I take that back. I apologize you guys if I'm wrong. I seen Tony Nuome. He was light years ahead of his time. And he had this move where he was imitate because he had took animation and 3D because you remember it was um at first it was Willis O'Brien in 1930 who did the stop motion and then after him Ray Harryson came with the stop motion. So Jerry Ronin when they were moving, they were stopping like this, they were moving like but they were they weren't posing, they were just I can't I've been posing so long I can't even go steal but they were like this. Tony had this move where he came down like this and he have his arms like this and he would start waving his arm and he would move like this and he like he had forearm. He'll move like this. He'll like this and he'll come like this. He'll he'll look up and he'll turn his he'll go like this and he he make he'll like turn this way like he was like a snake and he'll move this way and his arms will be waving. I don't think he was intentionally trying to wave. I think he was trying to imitate the snake weight when he was like this and he'll move and it look like an arms start coming all over like that. N that's just ever saw in my life. Oh. Oh, you know Tony cuz I Yeah. And he doing something like this. Yeah. Like you like and he all come all over like then you look like just like that lady on the send back. Mhm. And he had the music playing and then he had that thing with the Aon where he come like this with the cha. He looked just like him. So I take that back. That was the way. But I don't think it was intentionally. I think that was a snake lady. So that's the closest I would say. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Then when you get to like 77, San Francisco, the Close Encounters did the arm wave as a group and they they were doing an arm wave like from one hand to the other according to all the Simone guys. Talk about that. Oh, you Oh, yes. He's talking about a whole another city. Yeah. Yeah. It. So I I think 70 like late 70s the the arm wave and kind of they were taking waving to the next levels and then probably late 70s still sometime like, you know, the tutuing they were starting to build these things. That's right. Um, so so late 70s to early 80s, that's when stuff was like really all these other like more intricate. They start morphing into different styles. They would that's where he I was around but like I said he would be more uh I was there I could explain it too but he because he does more of the newer style. He could explain that better. Okay. There were more there were more what they call hybrid hybrid mixing together. Yeah. Styles were getting mixed together. Hybrid hybrid styles. It took a life of its own. Yeah.

Why do you feel why do you feel this was a moment of hybrids? Why specifically late '7s? It's because um because I think that's where we started to kind of see things sort of change and sort of transition. That's I don't I don't think that we can pinpoint an exact year, but that's when we kind of saw things sort of and and to me it's just it's it's I think it was just a natural evolution of it all. I mean, we whatever great things we did with the dance when it passes on to a younger generation, greater things are they to do with it than we. And that's just how it's always going to be. M so yeah, it just because it because it was a mixture of it was a mixture of so many things. I can most of the people from our generation or at least I can speak for myself and I think I can speak for Dana as well. I can watch someone dance and within within two to within two to five minutes I can see something that they're doing that we did years ago but they just call it something else. M and I because I because I've been around I've been around long enough and like he said earlier, there is there is nothing new under the sun but there is a beginning. The beautiful thing about this is that the end hasn't been written yet. So what I believe the younger generation is sort of clamoring for now is as they strike out on their own. They don't want to be connected to the older generation. They want to carve out their own. But mankind's been doing that with everything since the beginning of time. So that's what they want to do. They want to carve out their own. So part of what they don't understand is that at some point somebody's going to ask the question, "Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait. A lot of this stuff is really, really, really starting to look the same. Where can we go to find originality?" Well, you can't find it going forward because everything everything that is considered to be original, you have to go back to get it. M that's why you that's why no matter how far this thing goes, you're always going to see Bugaloo was the tree. You can always tell the tree by the branches. And so when I look at these other art forms that came after and by the way, I call it art. And the reason I call it art is because not everyone can do it. Warhol was a famous painter. Now, if everybody could do what Andy Warhol did, Andy Warhol wouldn't be a famous painter. As far as I'm concerned, this dance is art. No different than tap. No different than uh uh ballet, modern, jazz. Part of the reason that they're considered arts because they have their virtuosos. Okay. Well, in this art form, it's the same. The difference between the two is in order to do the other four conventional dances, you have to take classes to learn. This thing called street dancing is self-contained and for the most part, it's self-taught. That's why it needs a special category, but it's yet and still, it's still art. I see. Okay. Well, well said. Yes. Um, that was good. Yeah. I want to speak. Do you hear what I'm saying? Go ahead. Oh, I want to speak on something about. So, what happens in life naturally, I don't care where it is, if you do a style that's known for, you know, things are supposed to evolve. I give you a perfect example. Well, no, I'm not going to give you that sample now. Uh, you're talking about things fusing, things changing, things morphing. So, I did that myself. So, I got Demons in the Mind came out in 1978. I got into Demons and Mind in 1983 as a mascot and I officially was in a group in 1984. So, before Demons Mind was like block, everything was block, you know, it was incredible. You a perfect example you see on um Dance Party TV20 on St. Patrick's Day, I think 1982. They're dancing off the beat goes on by orbit. They got on all green and they're doing all this crazy um incredible stuff where they're stopping and they're looking unreal. Yes. So when I got in the group, I just got out a group from Richmond called the Criminons. I hung a lot of Richmond groups. So what I did is I took the Richmond style of dance and mixed it with San Francisco style and that's what you see me when you see us in that film in 1984. Now, that Stockton context the Richmond style and the um Frisco style together and that's what you see that's what you see us doing today. But I want to speak on something else. I was walking, I meant to mention this. I was watching a podcast with Cool Boy and he had Diesel on there from Fantasy and Diesel. They're the managers of unique dominoes and he had made a statement saying that they his group had went against us and he said Fresno, Modesto, San Francisco, he said around 85 and he said he wasn't sure if Gentleman production won or we won or whatever. So I just want to give him his answer if he listens. So first of all, it wasn't Modesto, it wasn't Fresno, it wasn't Frisco. It was in Stockton in 1984. By 1985, this dance was dead. uh or 85 or 86, I can't remember which one. And Gentleman production wasn't there. It was us, the Playboys, and Unique Domino's. We took first uh in ' 84. The play the original Playboys, Playboy Rob, and I think Playboy Vic, they had their manager with them. They had the doctor gloves on cuz um Playboy Rob, I let them use my gloves and they had the lady manager. They took second and the Unique Donald I put, I believe, took third. So, I just wanted to clear that up. Uh, another thing I want to clear up too, uh, a lot of dancers from all over saying that Barry is really, they're incredible and Diesel made a statement about this too. We're incredible with, uh, group stepping, but we don't spend a lot of time on the solo. But first of all, you guys didn't really see us to 84 and start really seeing us 85. Long before that, that's all it was was solo at the first before group stepping came in. That's all we did was solo. That's what we're known for. But after we that had got burnt out, we figured in order to be to be in a show and compete with the singers and other people, we had to become get in a group form because that was more important. And the solo became secondary. We could still solo, but that was secondary to winning the show. But if you catch us in a at a park or catch us at a um a show or at a a social center, then you can see a person solo all day long. You missed all our great soloists. That's why you don't know about our solos because by the time you saw us our our um specific our specialized was on group stepping. Even us when we group step, we can all solo, but it's more about the show. So there were thousands of people that can get out. You just never saw that. Y that's why you didn't that's so I want to answer that question too, but go ahead.

Why why do you feel the Bay Area has such a how do I say the the stepping, the group routines, the dominoes? Why why is that so strong in the Bay Area? Like no one else uh I you know I mean I've seen people imitated you know in LA or poppers or you know, but like what what is it about the Bay Area that has that the steps like, you know, I don't see that anywhere else. I don't see that on the East Coast. I don't see that coming from Europe. Everyone seems to look at Strutters. They mentioned Strutters as oh the group. Well, look at the the piece. Why? Why that? I guess what I'm saying is that group formation, why Oakland? So, uh, because a group, um, the first group to set the standard with the dominoes, the ripples is the Black Messengers. You guys know them as the mechanical devices, but we call them the Black Messengers. And they're the guns that came with the ripples, the dominoes, the hits, um, all the formations. So they since they set that high st, they had other routines that were like these graveyard routines on stage where they come out of coffins, which was a whole different type of thing going on, but that's a whole another convers, that was amazing, that's a whole another conver. But when you see the doing it, they focused on um, I think the discipline comes from this is just my assumption. We come from a culture, a very deep culture of the Black Panthers and in the Black Panthers, they were very disciplined soldiers. And if you see pictures Black Panthers, they're in formations and lines and they're like soldiers and that's in our DNA. We had ROTC culture and he could tell you in high school where the RTC was amazing, flipping the guns and the perfect lines. The discipline was high level. Between the ROTC, the formation of the Black Panthers and being disciplined, it's something in the water. I don't know what it is. And uh and then you had the singing groups who had the choreography where their stuff was even they were incredible with their uniforms and how their lines were perfect. So it was only natural that when the group start dancing, they took on the same, especially if they're going to compete in a show with dancers, singers, and bands, they have to have the same type of look, same type of discipline in order to compete. And I think that's where that discipline came. So when we watch the people like the um uh the Black Messengers and maybe the Black Resurgence, they set the standards for the dominoes, the ripples, the purple perfect lines, the uh, the uh, you know, with the discipline. So every group after that had to stand, had to uh, they we stood on the shoulders of them. So we have to keep that up. That tradition never stopped. And I don't think everybody even knows why they're doing it. Just see that group's incredible. We got to be better than them. And each city had the same uh sequence of um, that's what it became because it was more about um, how neat he was, how uniform he was, and how perfectly it's a unison thing. Something about people being unison, it just it amazes people even with and um, that became the format, the basis of the stepping as opposed to the solo part. And I I don't know if I answered your question the right way. Yeah. No, the the basically the what the culture, what was going on and we kept that going. You answered that. You answered of what was going on at the time that influenced the pieces of the routines, the the cleans, the the clean lines, the just the mentality. So, no, that that you answered it perfectly. Yeah. Yeah. I you know, I I think it's incredible. I've heard of um I might be incorrect, but I'm I believe even uh, you know, Bobby Andre mentions how group routines are incredible. The Bay Area, he gave he even shared like u incredible. Um, so it's just it's interesting to know like what was going on to form this this movement, this group because the more and then here's another thing. Compet, uh, competition breeds brilliance. So if you're in a group that's perfect and they're perfect, that's going to force you to be more perfect than them and take it to the next level and next thing you know you got a thousand groups that are just unbelievably perfect because that you have to be out do the in order to win the show or win the talent show, you have to be more neater than them and do and before you know you got something to say on that one. Uh, no. Patrick after you. Okay. Uh, that's it pushes the letter, you know, and like I said, when we were in the seventh grade, uh, no, I take that back. When I got to high school, we even when we did the catch on, you know, you come on, you come and come back and catch the other person. That's when we did when we were kids, we did that style. And even that was even though it was basic and simple, it's the unity. And I think that comes from our background of of of the Black Panther Panther culture, the RTC culture, the uh unisonense of everything we've done in this culture. I think and I think that culture comes aside and it comes out to the stage. I think that's the best answer I can give. I hope that's the right one. Okay. Okay. And then Bill, yes, you were going to share. I'm sorry. Rolling out of the 60s, uh, coming into the 70s. Um, I keep doing that groups. Okay. Funk bands. And so our era was the funk era. So there were hundreds of funk bands prior to that. Uh, before the 60s, you can you can talk about the the uh Temptations and and some of the other groups that were in the in the 60s, but before that most of the recording artists in the music was done by solo artists. So rolling into this rolling out of the 60s into the 70s, it was the era of the bands and the groups. So simultaneously, two things happened. We h we we we we had solo dancers as he said, there were hundreds of solo dancers, but the other thing that started to happen was is that as each generation evolves, their attention span becomes shorter and shorter. Yes. But what so in the beginning, you could take a solo performer, put him on that big stage and he could perform and everybody was oo and ah. But as the attention span started to get shorter, nobody went to see one person hog up a four-minute record, long record. So that precipitated the need for groups. Wow. So when you think about the the perfection and the alignment and the discipline, it's because now you have all of these solo artists who created their own and now you put them in a group, right? So now you have all of this imagination and all this creativity going on, right? Yeah. So it evolves faster because you have all the brilliant minds together. All the brilliant minds putting all this stuff together. So that has a lot to do with it as well. That's right. Which now it sounds this, this is reminding me of the facts when I hear of uh even Electric Bugaloos of Bugaloo Sam finding the members to put together to represent. You know, I talked to Andre, he talked about finding members, even Jerry finding Iron Man. It was like people are wanting to find the best that they know. Yes. So they can come together, create and that Yeah. That right. Okay. Wow.

The last question for this uh just for our part one talk to today is this this question is going to come from kind of what made me start asking the questions about animation interviewing uh uh these different dancers from different areas. Um, currently I would say there's a hot topic of animation. People talking a lot about it. Um, a lot of dancers uh entering contests saying, oh, I'm, you know, animation contest. Um, uh, there seems to be also a little confusion. Some people are saying that, you know, animation is not a dance, but it's more of a technique that all movers use, all styles use animation. Some people want to say, well, you know, I'm an animator and animation is a style and that, you know, not that we we have an identity in a sense. Um, and and there's mixed opinions about should there be kind of like a should there should people start to talk about foundations of animations, structuring it, kind of separating it from waving, popping, Boo, robot? Should we separate it? So I guess my thought my my question is, what are your thoughts on animation for the current generation or for where where it may go? And I guess what I was sharing of how the current state of it is, there's there's contests happening now of people entering animation events and there's that's why these interviews I'm doing them because I want to ask people, okay, what is this animation? Is it the stop motion? Is it just being a character? Is it you can't define it because there is no way of defining it because people never defined it. Duck didn't define it. So, I want to I'd like to hear your thoughts on animation and the current generation and the future. So, um, and Colin, my friend Colin here, who's actually a he's a current, I would say a current generation interested in robot and animation, he is also very uh talking a lot about sharing animation, talking about animation. So, yes. So, I'm a belief in evolution. This is I'm just telling you my opinion and I don't have a problem with the new generation renaming or renaming or restructuring everything because you can't stop the wave of the new generation. They're going to do every generation does something the next generation didn't do and they're going to it's organic going to take a life of its own. All I ask is they know where the foundation came from. Once you know the foundation where it came from, you could do whatever you want to do with it because it's too powerful and it's not meant to stay still. Was meant to evolve and evolve and it has morphed kind of like the butter the caterpillar turned into the butterfly. It's became its own animal. Um, you got like the girl Yaya. I I've seen her. She's amazing. You got the the Dragon House family with um, I think Glitch used to be in there and Glitch Eye Glide non-stop blueprint blueprint all them non-stop. You got his style. Then you got Sheibi who's amazing. You got uh the robot family um uh Back to the Future uh in Russia with the main guy. What's the guy? Uh yes, that Yep. They're hosting contests. Yep. You know, I looked at those contest and I'm like amazed like this really they went somewhere else. So I in my opinion believe something has to grow and you can't stop it and it should take a life of its own and they want to call it that's it. All I'm asking is when they ask questions or they look at the the sources or the history books, just know where it came from, the foundation. You can't sustain something like that. It's gonna it's going to grow. Even when we were doing it from the beginning, it grew just within Oakland and spread out even in that little time. So, it's going to take a life of its own. You can't suppress that. So, I just I I think it's okay to call it, you know, I have no problem with that. I I can't speak for them, but I have no problem with that. So would you say you you would agree or say it's okay that u the current generation if they're saying, you know, slow motion being a character, I'm going to be motion, I'm going to tell a story and they're saying this is animation, then it's okay as long as they're they're sharing also the history of where this. Yes, I have no problem. I I push I I encourage that. Okay, because I'm a fan of the art before anything else. I'm a fan of this art and I wouldn't have done it if I wouldn't have got that's what amazed me in the first. And if that's what it takes them to go to the next level and push the letter, um, that's that's their their perspective, you know, and so I I I I push for me. I can't speak my comrade. I don't know what they're going to say, but I just don't forget where it cames from and pay that's always saying solid because don't forget where it came from and Yeah. Know and know the history, but yes, that's to me that's fine. Okay. Because so many moves that morphed and changed and slow motion like you said, glitch and moves that are evolving that weren't we were just scratching the surface and so many moves are coming out that we could never imagine, you know, the glides they're doing, I mean, those glides, those guys in Memphis are doing, you know, and the the stuff the flexers and the buckups are doing and, you know, the kick dancers in Chicago and the jittens in Detroit and, you know, everybody's the turfing, the turfing here, ting up group on the floor, our turfers who are who will be our grand people, grandkids, their turf dancers, they're even taking stuff farther than we did with Balon and we support them. So, they're doing that too. So, I support everybody um doing because I want to go on forever. Just all I say is just always know where it came from and know the foundation. We we just want the truth to be told. We don't get anything out of this. We want really I want the legacy of the older guys from up for me to people to know their legacy. And I try to be as accurate as possible, but like said, we're trying to remember stuff from 50. He's younger, so he has to he fact checks me and reminds me and reminds us. So I I want to be accurate as possible. But that's my that's my opinion. Okay. Bill, do you do you have a your thoughts on I guess the same question I asked of the generation trying to define it or trying to kind of define it as oh this is a style of dance and this is the structure of it or right maybe let's not label it. What are your thoughts? Um, I don't know. For for me, I don't see animation as a style. I see animation as a process because it's always been here. So, I because the the whole goal is to create an illusion. Animation is a process you used to create an illusion and it's always been here. Some things we can't explain where they came from. We just know that from the beginning of this art form, a animation has been a part of it. And and and and so I think everybody defines it differently. So I don't know that that's what makes it hard to for me to embrace it as a style. Um, I think animation just is. I just think that it's a part of creating the illusion, then that's what it is. So whatever you do, whatever you do, there's a form of animation involved in that. So if one person looks at it and says, "No, this is not animation." Well, that's to them. But one thing we do know is that the animation part was has has kind of always been here. So how do you take that, quantify it, and then say this is what it is? Because it's the same thing they did with Bugaloo. That's why there's so many people that don't understand what Bugaloo is because they they they weren't here at its infancy or at its inception. So everybody had their own perception of what it was. And so I feel the same way about about animation. It's animation just is. And whatever you do through that to create the illusion, as far as I'm concerned, it's a form of it's a form of animation. How do you move forward in the future, but keeping the respect of of the culture of animation? How do you move the style forward, but again, keeping the respect? Um, I think that it's all part of the culture. I think it's all part of the culture of dance. And I think that if you if you respect the art, then you respect everything that's underneath it. And like Dana said, everybody's going to every it is going to evolve. I have no issue with the evolution of it and what they it's not for me. It's not the it's not the tunnel that they funnel the instrument through. That's that for me because that that just is what it is. We don't know why that is what it is. So if you can respect it because it's art, you know, even even with the controversy going on between, you know, North and South the Electric Bugaloo, us, because I can respect and appreciate the art, I know that it has taken some creativity for Bugaloo Sam and those guys to do what they did. It's all it's all creative, you know. But going back to what he said, I have no issue with them being saying that this is what they contributed to. But what they can't say is that they created it. You have to understand and know where it came from. You have to respect the actual history of it. Does that Okay. Okay. So they let's hypothetically if the Bugaloo Sam Bugaloo would have said, you know, this is popping, this is the movement, but we were inspired by Booaloo from Oakland, then it would have been a okay. Yes. Yeah. Because No, no, no, no. Go ahead. Yeah. Because the problem when they came on Soul Train and Don Kelis, I bet asked them, you know, I understand that you I forgot what he said. You guys create a dance, popping, Bugaloo, or whatever they said, or they said that on different shows. They never said, "No, there some guys in the bar are doing it for us. We're just doing the Fresno style of popping. This is our version of it. They've doing it before us." They only start giving us credit when we start pressing them and then they start saying they were aware of us, but they never volunteered it from the beginning and that was the problem. We never would have been an issue, but because it was they didn't mention anybody was doing it, period. It's just like, oh yeah, we're creative, period. People don't know that think, oh, they're thinking they're creators. They don't know that people were doing that and that's where the problem was. Should it if if they were to say, uh, this is we're doing a version of Baloo, then wouldn't contest be called Baloo contest, not popping contest, or is it okay that again, if say that again, Electric Bugaloo's hypothetically, we're speaking hypothetically, but if they were to if they're if they were to say they're doing a variation of they're in the movements are inspired from Bugaloo from Oakland. If they were to say that Mhm. what they are hosting, the contest they're hosting is called popping. Is that okay to have the name popping or should it have been called Bugaloo? Well, again, because that goes down to semantics and name. It's still the same movement. Yes. Because that's what it's that's what the semantics is. Because if they say popping and we see that contest and they're doing the same movements that were done before, it's still the same issue. Okay. So they say popping and they're doing some some dance from Mars we never seen before. We have nothing to say. But if they're saying, I don't care what they say, it's semantics. If the movement has already been done in Oakland and you're saying using another name, that's even worse. Yeah. That that doesn't work either. Well, well, for me, if it it's if they say we're we're we're going to demonstrate um, our our version of a dance from the Bay Area called Baloo. He said, but we call it popping. See how they connected the reference? Yes. Fresno style popping, style popping, which is been okay with it. Never been a controversy. Being able to connect it and to you know, tie it to the original form. Yeah. You see that's because if you don't do that, to the average person that doesn't know, it looks like you're the creators of it and then one person saying they created it all. It doesn't work like God doesn't allow you to create like that. Right. Famous quote by Ludan. God doesn't allow you to create like that. A dance is first not created. Innovated and it's ev it's created through lots of people, evolves. That's how style. No one person comes with a thousand styles and has a dream and wakes up. It doesn't work that way. So that's another problem. Let me just let me just say this. Every every art, every art form that's created has a history and a culture that supports it. So, when I think about the Bay Area versus Fresno, the Bay Area is a hot bed of entertainment, it's it's a it's a hot bed of a whole lot of things. Oh, I know where you're going with this one. Fresno has always largely been a farming community. So, where's the history and the culture to support an art form like that being created out of a place like that? It was a rural area. Yeah. So, it's not me saying that. It's, you know, it has a history and a culture that, you know, supports it, right? So, yeah. Okay. All right. And I know you don't like to get caught up in. I didn't know. I didn't know what's going here like that. Yeah. I didn't know. I huh. Right. Right. But no, well, what are you going to say, Dana? I want to say Well, I Okay, I want to say this because you're asking about moving forward, too. What they're saying is just not to forget the history and to always mention like where it came from. And that's kind of what I was telling Clocks on a on a post and I was telling you in the beginning was that this Dan it is going to evolve. It is going to change. But to show respect, you always got to it's just a respect thing. You got to say where it came from and what it started as. You don't have to keep it there. No. Necessarily, right? Some people will try to there. You have a traditionalist and you have the people that are going to push the boundaries. Always going to happen. But as a community, you can just keep having these conversations. But if you're going to be doing a animation and trying to make events and you're going to teach it, especially all these things, right? The very least you can do is just at the beginning of each class, at the beginning of your competitions, whatever, this is the history of it, like at least a quick thing talking about where it came from, you know, something simple. Right. Right. So, the EBS didn't do that. And as as an animation community moving forward, I highly suggest you guys do that. It's and it's just a respect thing, of course. But, you know, so yeah, if you're going to teach a class, don't just be like, "This is my way of animation and that's it." Like, at least just show some respect. Like, this is what it used to be. This is where it came from. Now, we're going to do my version. What are you talking about? Referring to in general or you're trying to You're talking about Sam and Essies to them. Right. Coming back to the animation uh the the the topic because of currently again, it's a it's a hot topic and there's a there's different opinions of how to go about it um, you know, because some like I was saying, some people will view it as a technique. It doesn't belong to a dance. Crumping can use animation, flexing can use animation, you know, uh uh you can animate any movement. And then there's that confusion. Some people felt like, okay, I enter a contest and everyone's doing everything. There was just there's just a lot of a talk about animation and where it's going to move forward, I would say. And and well, see here, see here's the thing and it's really nobody's fault. It just is what it is. A lot of times when dancers are innov I just say create because nobody creates one dance. Dancers are innovated and u evolve through period of time. Is there's no gatekeeper and it shouldn't be one. There's nobody in charge of dance to say, okay, these are the rules, this is what it is. So because there's nobody like that and the the the hard part is it shouldn't be anybody like that. It takes a life of its own. So there's nobody gatekeepers saying, okay, come back. You're getting too far. So I think it's so large, it takes a life of its own. I think that's the way things work. They start out one thing and they morph into all kind of stuff to the point where you one but 100 years from now, you may not recognize it. But I think that's one of the things when something is so creative and so innovative, it goes, you know, goes so far out and you got so many different people. Even here, the same thing happened here. It's like I said, we called it Brooklyn in Oakland. Frisco decided to call it strutting, right? Richmond called it roboting. Sacramento called it busting. Oak Parking and Striking, right? You know, uh the combat, they call it combat. Uh, I think Stockton at one time they called it something different. So naturally when something goes to a different neighborhood with different people, they rename it, they refix the moves and then they have or, you know, if they created a whole different. I mean, I think it was one guy. I'm not trying to be a comedian, but I remember one time long time ago, it was one guy. He lived in some old country town. He had a style where they only could do it when it rained and he would slide and come up and hit every time. They had a bunch of movies, you slide and you come up and hit, but you only could do they only could do it when it rained. That's interesting. No, that was the stupidest thing I ever heard. But that to them was a style. You know what I'm saying? So I'm I'm being funny, but I merely was a guy who told me that. So Wow. That's how things work. Okay. I think I I I feel that definitely um again adding more clarity to the current generation and moving forward. And also Bryce, I appreciate you adding in as well of, you know, if you're going to teach a class, if you're going to have events, then let's talk about who are the people contributing, where is this coming from, let's talk about the history of it. Um, it it's not one single person that is the source or, you know, there's different opinions. It's I I don't think it's possible. It's it's I don't think it's possible for every let's say the OG's in LA, OG's in Bay to all agree on how it should look, but we can get an idea of how it has evolved and how it's gone. I would say, well, here's the thing. When people change up and do their style, I'm a fan of the LA guys, some LA boppers, the pop lockers, school. I love all those guys and style. That's their choice and you know how they're doing their style and they got varieties of things they do. All I'm saying is when we're telling our story on this side, we want people to know the foundation, how it started. We want to be accurate as possible. Tell the truth. We're not lying. I might memory might be off a little. I'm going to have to get fact checked. But overall, this is not about money. It's not about ego fame. We just want the guys before us to legacy not to die and people to know what they did. This is something we would not play around with something like that. I'm a fan of this art. If I don't know something, I'm going to tell you, hey, I don't know it. Hey, I can't tell you about this stuff, but this is something I've seen since 72 in my own eyes. And the stuff I didn't see, the stuff we interviewed, we people we interviewed. I try to be accurate as possible so people can know what the foundation is because I want you to know the foundation where it is, the techniques. It's like going some old ancient Chinese secret that somebody may not know. It's the same, you know, same thing. So, I just want people to know I'm not bashing the other styles, but I felt that for the first time ever, they're hearing the real story uncut with us and the other thing you did with Kernney, Chucky, and you heard with them and Jerry Renty, you're hearing the story uncut with them. And so many people out here telling our story because it's secondhand, thirdhand information and it's not it's not accurate. So that's one that's wanted to clear this clear it up so you could talk to the source or close to the source because we have the information. We just want the truth to be out there and we not knocking the guys out there doing it. You just need to know the truth that you know you know you know what did you think we're going to do? You know we you know we've been doing this forever and we're not going to sit by and not say what we did unless somebody just, you know, that's what we do. Okay. Okay. No, I hear that's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Um, I know I'm cutting time. I'm trying. I know. I know. I know. Well, I told you probably I told you probably get to another thing. I got I got one one I'm gonna try one more question then I then I'm got it. I'm gonna get off. But um, my my last question is, if someone came up to you and was like, what is animation? What would you say to them? They know nothing about the dance. They know nothing at all and they're talk they're talking about it in the dance like, what is this thing people talk about animation and dance? What would you say? I would say animation is uh movement that is frame by frame illusion that makes you look like a toy, a monster, or any kind of character out of a cartoon. If you can move a certain way where you look exactly like that frame to frame where you're imitating something, that would be animation. Whatever it is, you could be imitating a tractor. A tractor picking something up and turning like this and, you know, and moving whatever. And, you know, anything you could do. Uh, well, that's more robot. I'm talking about um, something where you just look like you're if you look exactly what you're imitating. If you can make this body imitate something and morph your body into frames where you look exactly like a cartoon or look like a machine, that would be animating. That's the best way I could put it. That might not be a great idea, but that's the best thing because it's so comp. It's such an amazing dance and so complicated. Sometimes things aren't meant to have words for it. That's the best thing I can think of, right? Cuz I'm not going to use the frame to frame the old school cuz that's what they did talking about for the people today, you know, whatever is the latest thing like like I hear um, which I'm sure you're going to hear that tonight. I heard OG Midnight talking about how he would uh um learned the tring. Oh, hurdle. Yeah, hurdle. Hurdle to Trroning. That's amazing. I mean, I would have never thought of that. That that's a perfect example that stuff like that it's supposed to grow and evolve like that, right? I love that. Okay. Okay. I want to thank you Dana and Bill and for for coming together and dropping so much knowledge and information and I'm going to be looking forward to going through this watching it again. Um Okay, that's cool. That's I'm glad we can contribute it, man. We just wanted any I don't want I know talk. Anybody else have anything to say? I I just want to say something simple about animation. I think I think animation is a process that one uses to create an illusion. And so for me, when I think of animation, I think where we get into trouble is when we try to define it. Once you call something a style, now you have to start putting things together. This is why in the beginning, Bugaloo was the umbrella. Because when I came along there, we didn't we didn't even use the word styles. We didn't define it that way. It was all under one umbrella and it was just movement. So once you call it a style, now you have to figure out a way how to define it. So I look at animation simply as animation is like God. Nobody knows where it came from. It just is. I like that. I like that. Okay. Nice. That's a great way to think of Yeah. Bryce, did you want to share real before we more of the Bay Area's history will be in the uh docky series? Yes. The greatest story never told. More episodes are coming very very soon. Yes. Nice. And media and media circus uh will be having a documentary coming out pretty soon too. Nice. Uh and u in the future, too. And we're going to talk about our history, the media circus and San Francisco history with the strutting groups and stuff like that. Nice. You know, I I'm want to say one. I'm I'm really imagining man that all these interviews I've been doing to really cut them all apart and put them into one thing so that people could like sit down and just watch like a 30 minute, you know, the highlights of like, oh wow, this is okay, like like you said Bryce about having people watch learn the history before they teach a class or, you know, it's like a oh nice, it just everything contained in a nice video format, which of course, that's what you're doing with a documentary. Um, yeah. Okay. Okay. Dana, do what you want with it. Do what you want with it. Oh, yeah. Do what you like. Do what you like. Just uh just uh run it by these guys before you put it out. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Run it by us. But who was ever in it? So, did we answer So, what I want I know you got to move on to OG Hurdle, but did we answer all the questions accurately or did you did we did you anything you wasn't sure about that we we try to get as accurate as pos? We're trying to recall this stuff and be accurate. Did we answer it accurately? You I would say everything we've talked about today you've answered accurately. There are questions that I didn't get to ask that I would like to. So I understand that such as like what were some of battles you've seen or moments or dancers doing things that you were like wow, like what was a highlight in your personal dance journey? Okay. Stuff like that or even maybe what were the major influences in the 80s and 90s and 2000s. But we'll have to talk about that. We'll talk about that next time. I think it got a pretty