Transcription
That's why Trump doesn't want the Epstein files to be discharged, because the reality is the lie was he was going to drain the swamp and reveal. But what is impossible for him to deny is that he and Jeffrey Epstein were closely associated. My colleague Michael Wolff has detailed and revealed tapes of Jeffrey Epstein saying that Donald Trump was his best friend.
Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Hugh Daugherty. I'm executive editor of the Daily Beast. I'm delighted to be guest hosting. Don't worry. Joanna Coles will be back on the next episode of The Daily Beast podcast. If you need your Joanna fix, and who doesn't? You can go back and binge every episode of our brilliant podcast Inside Trump's Head, where she and the incomparable Michael Wolff venture into that dark place and extract everything you need to know.
We have been working hard on getting more brilliant guests for our podcast. I want to thank everyone who supports us, especially those who've become members like The Daily Beast, through the independent journalism we all need now to become a member. Just click the join button on the YouTube page and you will get amazing access to even more features. As because of all of you that have joined that we are able to bring you today's guest. Doctor Stephen Hassan. Doctor Hassan is a mental health professional. He's got a PhD in organizational development, and he is one of the world's greatest experts on cults. He's the author of four books about cults. It's one of those books that we've got so much to talk about. It is very simply called The Cult of Trump. Doctor Hassan, welcome. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me here. The book came out in 2019. Many books fade and relevance, but this one just seems even more relevant if that's possible. And there's so much to talk about. But I just want to start with your journey, because the reason that you are on here and you, if it's a decades long career as a cult expert, is frankly, because you were in one.
I was a 19 year old at Queens College back in 1974. Actually, the same month Patty Hearst was physically abducted by a left wing cult called the Symbionese Liberation Army, and she had a personality change to become Tania and became a bank robber. I got recruited into the Moonies cult and became a right wing fascist, believing moon was the Messiah and was told to drop out of college, quit my job, cut off from my family, and believe he was the greatest man in human history. And it was in 74 that they selected me because they were redoing the leadership in America. The selection selected me to become a leader that I was groomed to help rule the world when the Moonies took over. And it was back in 74 that moon said that we're going to infiltrate the US government, that God hates democracy. He wants a theocracy to rule the world, and that when we take power and America will amend the Constitution and make it a capital offense for people who don't follow the rules of the Moonies. And back then they were famous for mass weddings. Everybody remembers pictures of those mass weddings, right? Yeah. People you didn't even know, they didn't even speak their language. But you believe that God was choosing your perfect mate and you'd have sinless children. So I was in the room hearing this, and when I got deprogrammed after a near-fatal van crash due to sleep deprivation, and I agreed to meet with former members to prove to my family I wasn't in a cult and I wasn't brainwashed. It was there I learned about Chinese communist brainwashing, and my brain started questioning whether moon really was the Messiah. And at the point I had my awakening moment when I realized moon was a liar and therefore he couldn't be the Messiah or a man of God or a trustworthy leader. I was like, how could I have believed all this and recruited people into this? And so I started reading books on brainwashing by former military intelligence people who had studied Mao's thought reform programs and actually started contacting them because their books were helpful. But my experience was so much more extreme than what they wrote about.
Many people with your experience might just want to walk away from it and never engage in it or think about it again, but you've actually made it a lifelong study. It wasn't my plan. I can tell you, but I did feel really guilty for all the people I hurt, all the people I recruited in, that I helped the Moonies get a stronghold in the United States. So I felt responsible, and I wanted to help people to get out. And because I had knowledge that most members didn't have access to the top leadership. I felt a responsibility. And I was approached by a congressional subcommittee investigation that was going on at that time looking into Korean CIA activities in the US. So I became a whistleblower and gave them all of Moon's, private internal speeches about taking over the world. And, but it wasn't until Jonestown that it really shocked me because I knew I would have done what they did. Giving cyanide laced flavor aid to children and such, I when I saw so many dead people, dead Americans and an assassinated congressman, I was like, this is far bigger than the Moonies. I mean, one of the simplest questions, I think that everybody has looking at this is, okay, what's a cult? That you've broken down into four very distinct areas. And that's what I wanted to get into the whole Donald Trump issue, because a lot of people might look at this and say, well, hold on. 78 million people voted for Donald Trump. How can that be a cult? But as people know, seeing Gen Z, you've you've got the receipts, right?
Where I've arrived after all these decades is to say there are cults that are ethical and benign and even productive. Whether you're really into someone or some ideology or some do good group. I laugh and say, I'm in the Ted X cult because I've done four and I love to learn. I was reading your book that you said that it's technically Bruce Springsteen maybe running a cult. Yeah, or Taylor Swift. I mean, you can have fandoms right now, you know, as we're recording this, the World Series is happening and people are, like, glued, to the screen. But there's nothing wrong. No one's been deceived, nobody's getting threatened, etc.. I'm really just concerned about authoritarian mind control cults, which is considered a dissociative disorder or a disruption of identity. And the four areas are behavior control, information control, thought and emotional control. And these four and you can go to Freedom of mind.com and download the list. When you asked me about 70 million Americans voting for Trump, I say China has a billion and a half and I call them an authoritarian mind control cult because they control people's behavior, information, thoughts and emotions to make them dependent and obedient on the regime.
So let's just break down, just as you say, those four elements your bite model, behavioral control, information control, thought control, emotional control. Clearly everybody knows who Donald Trump is, right. And he does everything pretty much in public. So can you just take us through behavior control? Is Donald Trump capable of controlling people's behavior? How does that match onto your model? Because people say, I'm free and it's all about freedom. The model shifted when the internet got created, and there was search engine optimization, because if you're being fed a stream of influencers on your cell phone, social media, text, or, in, in regular media, it's going to shape your thinking, your beliefs, it's going to change you emotionally. And those two things are going to influence how you behave. And so but critically, I would like to state categorically human beings were not evolved to be online ten hours a day. We are social beings to be in real life, and the pandemic supercharged the mind control isolation piece. But people should be sleeping 7 to 9 hours a night, and people are on their screens before they go to sleep. I tell people, stop looking at the screens an hour to two hours before you go to sleep, listen to music, do something to get out your brain off the dopamine addiction and attention addiction of of, the social media platforms. But coming back to, the need for human beings to, be open to learning, to be open to changing your mind and to learn how to discern what's a ethical source of information and what is propaganda or disinformation. And one of the theses of the cult of Trump is that there are bad actors. They want to destroy democracy. They want to, destroy the faith in experts, faith and science, faith in democratic institutions create such polarization and alienation and estrangement that will make it easy for a takeover.
What is it about Donald J. Trump that makes him a cult leader? Why is he the person that has been able to reach their status? So I wrote in my book that the origins for Trump was he was raised in a cult of Norman Vincent Peale, the power of positive thinking. And in that mindset, it mirrors these new Apostolic Reformation and prosperity ministers because people would say, if you believe at 100%, God's going to manifest that, and therefore doubt is a sin. So never doubt your vision and your faith. You write in the book that Trump was essentially taken there every week by his father to the Marble Collegiate Church in Manhattan. And weirdly, subsequently, Trump actually mischaracterized the religion there, didn't he? He said that he was, Presbyterian. And they had to point out that, in fact, it's not a Presbyterian church. Yeah, not at all. Not at all. But the thing is, is that he had a very unhappy childhood, authoritarian parents who were racist and was Nazi leaning. Roy Cohen was a major influence over him as well. He was groomed for years. I mean, and and if you listen to people who did business with him, who were stiffed because he didn't pay the bills after they did work for him, he one could say he had a cult of personality. He walked around with certainty and arrogance, and they literally created an image that Donald Trump was a successful businessman when he wasn't. He had bankruptcy after bankruptcy, and he got bailed out by the Russian mafia. Largely from his failures. He had managed never to become personally bankrupt, but corporately had done a number of massive bankruptcies into the hundreds of millions. But the point is, is image control, information control. And and people can get deceived. And how do they get deceived? I was deceived by women flirting with me, giving me the impression they wanted to be my girlfriend, and lying and saying they were students at Queens College, which they weren't lying, saying they weren't part of any religious group at all. So but the point is, is you can be tricked step by step by step until you get a hypnotized and indoctrinated into a belief system. And part of their indoctrination is they want to alienate you from family and friends. And what we're facing right now is this mass of estrangement where almost everyone I talk to says I have a family member or friend who's become MAGA. I don't recognize them. They've completely changed their values systems, and I try to argue with them and they won't listen. And I say, don't do that. Thanksgiving is not far away. Christmas is coming up. There's a lot of people spending time with a lot of family members in the next few weeks. How do you deal with your MAGA uncle? How do you deal with your MAGA, cousin in law who's, you know, sitting on the other side of the turkey and doesn't seem to live in the same country as you do?
The answer is that people need to take the time to learn about mind control cults. And when I was first asked my main book change, to write the book The Cult of Trump, I said no because it will alienate everybody who is believing in Trump. And he argued they won't read the book anyway, will write the book for everyone else, and I and I thought long and hard, so I did that. But what people need to do now is they need to think about people they were close to, especially family and friends. And most of the people that I talk to have blocked these people or not invited them for Thanksgiving, etc.. One thing you mentioned was blocking on social media, and I think every one of us knows some, you know, friend or relative or relative, a friend or whatever. He said, oh God, I just couldn't take uncle forever, an aunt, whatever. I just blocked them. I just muted them. So then they're confronted in real life, what do you do? We need to make a massive effort to reach out to these people, say, I miss you. I want you back in my life. Expect them to be angry at you. You blocked me. You didn't invite me for the last three years to Thanksgiving, and you apologize to the best of your ability. Be as sincere as possible and say, I want a redo or I want a reboot. And I'm sorry for things said and done, but we're family and let's be together. Let's be in each other's life. And if it means not talking about politics, let's agree not to bring it up. But let's talk about our children, our grandchildren, our pets, our travel vacations, etc. and if it does come up and we want to talk about it, let's agree on ground rules to talk respectfully, to not interrupt, to ask questions and be a good listener and not, try to persuade anybody. So and so last poll out, you know, it's like if something's legitimate, we'll stand up to scrutiny. And I'm I'm open to reconsidering things. So I just broke one of your rules by trying to interrupt there, but I just, I just I want you to beings. Nobody's perfect. I interrupt too, I catch myself, and I apologize. Right. But the point is, is that I want the public to understand. When you're brainwashed, you're real. Identity is still in your neurons, in your brain. The real Steve was still there. I just had a mooney brain that took over and wouldn't allow the real me to talk. The minute the real me could talk and I could think about what I was feeling and experiencing, the whole thing fell apart. And I woke up and I realized moon was a liar and a cheat and a bad person. So people will leave, but we want them to leave with their face saving, not with I told you so. Why didn't you listen to me? Finger wagging? Just like we are in a crisis. We are family. There are some 40 million people that are going to not have food benefits come November. How do you feel about that? That there are children not to get food.
So one of the things that you, you talk about is compartmentalizing information. And you describe it as insider versus outsider doctrines. But many of the things that obviously we are an intensely politicized society right now. Yeah. And you mentioned people not getting, snap the what's known as food stamps, but it's like you mentioned nutritional assistance program. There are people on the MAGA side who would say, that's Democrats fault. How do you deal with that when you're confronted with it? And I don't just mean that specifically, but that's often, you know, well, you talked about eggs. It's all the Democrats fault. It's all the fault of Obama. It's the fault of Clinton. I mean, this kind of goes back a long way, but how do you get past that when you're the person trying to trying to bring the temperature down? What I've learned is what you never do. If you want to help someone who's been brainwashed, you never want to attack the leader, the doctrine or the policy head on. Why? Because it activates the cult identity to defend and think you're persecuting them, and that you're evil. What works is talking about other groups that they would agree are bad. With MAGA people. It's talking about Chinese communist brainwashing and what the criteria like Robert Lifton eight criteria of brainwashing in his 1961 book for reform in the Psychology of Total ISM and asking what people think of those eight criteria or pimps and traffickers, and how they recruit and indoctrinate people to be sex slaves or labor slaves. And that opens the door to the person realizing there is such a thing as brainwashing. I think you're brainwashed by the Democrats. I'm not. But let's look at the models and use those to reality tests. And the most effective technique is asking a good question to somebody who is in MAGA or somebody who's in an authoritarian group, being patient, waiting for a response when the person gives the response, I recommend active listening, which means repeating back. So if I want to make sure I understood you, you said this and this and this that, I get it right. So the person really feels like you're paying attention to them, and then you ask a follow up question and a follow up question, because what's going to help the person exit is themselves starting to reality test. How does this compare with lies told by pimps that they love you, and that's why they're making you sleep with 18 guys a day and get venereal diseases. Or the Chinese communists that they believe that the cause is more important than individual, you know, rights, etc.. So but if you know the person before they got into MAGA, you'll know what kinds of values they had. So you want to always show photos, recall family trips, videos to get the person re accessing who they were before and ask them. I'm curious if you can go back in time to that period, what you would think if you were now supporting someone who was like giving billions of dollars to Argentina and moving an aircraft carrier.
That's why Trump doesn't want the Epstein files to be discharged. That's why Mike Johnson isn't bringing the isn't swearing in the 218th vote to discharge, the Epstein files, because the reality is the lie was he was going to drain the swamp and reveal. But what what is impossible for him to deny is that he and Jeffrey Epstein were closely associated. They hung out together. They danced together. Exactly. My colleague Michael Wolff has detailed and revealed tapes of Jeffrey Epstein saying that Donald Trump was his best friend. He had 100 hours with Jeffrey Epstein and Jeffrey's brother came out and said, of course they were best friends. They were neighbors. And Ghislaine Maxwell was a trafficker, too. And they've already started to make a deal with her or moving her out of the high security prison she should be in as a destructive, evil trafficker.
There are two big events or two things. I think it's kind of hard to work out. How does this how how does Trump manage to survive this cult thing? Right. He's he's leading this cult. And as you say, he made use of the drain the swamp narrative and going after pedophiles. And yet he has this ticking time bomb of the Epstein files. Right. How is it that he's able to, you know, not prevent these two things colliding? And why is it that lots of people outside go, well, this is going to be the end for him, but it's no, it's now October and it's still not the end for him. Right. So the key is information control. If, if people when I was a Moonie, if people understood how to talk to me and ask questions of me, I would have gotten out. And I wouldn't have been in and helping the cult get a foothold. But the key thing is information. And if you are in a silo and what's happening now online are profiles of us, and we are getting barraged to reinforce our worldview and move and nudge our worldview to extremes through emotional manipulation. I tell people, turn off the phone, learn about like watch the documentary, the social Dilemma, learn about how our attention is being manipulated and don't trust any one thing and be prepared to change your mind. And for me, I learned my lesson in 1976. You don't trust the pathological liar. You just don't because the lie and Trump is told lie. And so asking a person who's a magnet personality just to finish the thought, would you marry someone who you knew was a pathological liar? Would you enter into a business relationship? If you ask a Maga person, they'll say, of course not. And you say, I'm glad to hear you say that, but can I ask you a question? They'll be like, yeah, I'm really curious. How do you make sense of thinking it's okay to trust Donald Trump, but let's just talk about the people around him for a moment and your own experience. And this is fascinating because you were groomed to be a leader in the Moonies. Yes. I used to take some examples. You named Pete Hegseth or Stephen Miller, the Susie Wiles. The I there's Caroline Leavitt, you know, there's like the whole cast of characters around Trump. Are they consciously aware of what they are doing? Are they are they in the cult or the aware of the cult? How do you position that?
Well, they're definitely in the cult because they've sworn allegiance to Donald Trump over the facts. And I can tell you, as a Moonie leader, I was sleeping 3 to 4 hours a night. I was constantly kept busy. I was never on vacation. I never had a day off. I was isolated from family and friends. I didn't read newspapers, magazines or watch TV. So I was in a bubble. And these days people are walking around with a supercomputer that is mind controlling them because they're choosing which platforms to listen to, which influencers to listen to. And and so that's what's happening right now. And then there's a part of our brain as human beings, people need to understand we're social beings. We are not an island. We're and we're not rational. We're emotional beings who rationalize. And so if everybody is saying that a three inch line is the same size as a four inch line, as Solomon Asch proved in his conformity experiments, to fit in with what everyone else is saying, just so there's no dissonance in terms of approval. The heroic resisters are the ones that are like, no, that's not the same size. And then they're treated as an outcast. There's something wrong with them, and the truth will stand up to scrutiny. If you are open to realizing, you might have to change your mind about something, that can raise a good question, right? Other Democrats doing it all wrong. Yes, the doing it all wrong. And I'm frustrated because I've been on endless television shows, doing endless, seminars, webinars, etc. and I've yet to get to, anyone in power that has manifested what I'm what I'm teaching. The closest I got was Jamie Raskin sat down with me for two hours. He said he read three of my books and my doctoral dissertation. And I said to him, Jamie, convene a congressional hearing on QAnon and conspiracy theories. We can have a panel and we can explain to the public. He tried to talk to his caucus and the Democrats, and they weren't interested.
So if you were giving Hakeem Jeffries or Chuck Schumer one bit of advice, what would you tell them to do right now to do different? What should the what should they do the next time they're in the Oval Office? Next time they're in the Oval Office? Well, I, my thesis right now is that it should we should. When Biden was in power, I was saying we should declare a public health emergency. We're under psychological warfare, attack by enemies of democracy. We should be doing inoculation programs to explain. We should be teaching, mental health professionals, politicians, media people, educators about brainwashing and mind control using my models based on military intelligence stuff. We should destigmatize bringing people out of the MAGA cult, and we have tens of millions of former cult members who have left. And there are many, many documentaries and podcasts. We should be amplifying their voices to say, it happened to me. I'm smart. I have two masters and a PhD, but they got me because I was arrogant and I didn't think I could be brainwashed. But there's life after cult and that we need to be having a vision of survival of planetary survival. And I don't think having a black and white us versus them, good versus evil counter is the way to go. What we want to do is have a positive vision that young people can get, really invested in and, and everyone should be learning how to talk to people who are in the MAGA group. Stop calling them names. I've been doing videos saying what Ice is doing is reprehensible. It's terrible, but we don't know who's behind the mask. Maybe they the their eyes because they just need the job, or maybe they are a criminal, but instead of just yelling at them, calling them fascists, you should be asking questions. How would you feel if that's your mother that's on the floor and someone has their knee on her? You know, I think what you're doing is something you're going to come to regret. I think would have a lot more long term positive benefits. I've been telling people, talk to your family and friends who are in the military and ask them if you're asked to shoot peaceful protesters on the streets of Chicago or Los Angeles, will you follow orders or will you say, no? I've sworn I'm sworn to follow the Constitution, and this is evil.
You earlier raised the point that eventually these things end. Every cult leader is time limited by death. Frankly. Yeah. But putting that aside, clearly Donald Trump cannot legally run for a third term. And whether he is time limited by old Father Time or whether he's time limited by the Constitution or whatever happens, there is an end point, right, of which there is no doubt, Donald Trump. Yeah, I think he's ill. I don't think he's going to last that many years. And the question is, will people follow Vance to put Vance in with Musk? At cetera. Will people follow Vance? And unfortunately, when there's threat that we're going to track you, and if you say anything negative, you're going to be thrown into detainment and no one will know where you are. A lot of people start self-censoring.
Final question if you were in the Oval Office one on one with Donald Trump, what would you say to him? Is he somebody that can be can be, can his brain be cleansed, or can he be brought out of this or is he beyond hope? What would you do? That's an interesting thought experiment, and I appreciate that. It's very much a thought experiment. I'm assuming that although he may be watching and if he is, we will put you in touch. But it seems unlikely he's going to he's going to invite you, I'm guessing. Of course. Well, I grew up 1.3 miles from Donald Trump in Flushing, Queens. I grew up knowing he was a charlatan. He was a womanizer. So it was a no brainer that he was a malignant narcissist from the beginning. But I honestly can imagine what I would say to him other than he would think that I was evil and would want me to make a public statement that I renounce my book. And he's a great guy and doing God's will. And I would say, fuck you over my dead body. That's it's an intriguing it's an intriguing thought experiment. I wasn't expecting that ending there. No, I mean, seriously, what would I what would I say to Sun Myung Moon when I was out? I'd be like, fuck you, you're a charlatan. You're a rapist, you're evil. I'm out of here. Go fuck yourself. That's what I would say, because that's how. That's my, feelings. And it's my intellectual, belief. And, and then he would kill me and I'd be, like, happy. I'd say the trauma and know that I've done my work.
Well, Stephen, thank you for sharing your expertise, your experience with us has been a fascinating conversation. I suspect some people are going to be having fascinating conversations around the Thanksgiving table, not in the not too distant future. I hope that they are able to take some take some lessons from what you've said, and we might have you back to see how people have done what you took place. I'd be interested to hear people's thank you. Q I'm sorry I interrupted you. I enter you've broken your own rules, bad boy. No, I just want to say we really need to create a 20, 30 year, 50 year plan for how we're going to how we want, the world to be. And I believe in peace and love. I'm a love guy, so we need each other. There's no doubt that we need more peace and love. And thank you for joining us. And, I look forward to speaking again. Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Well, that was an amazing journey around the mind of Trump, the world of Trump, and indeed the Thanksgiving table. I just want to remind everyone that Doctor Hassan's book, The Cult of Trump, is available on good bookstores and online, and you can find him online himself at Freedom of Mint.com. Joanna will be back for the next episode. Thank you to everyone who has been listening and watching and being very tolerant of my accent, even when you don't understand it fully. Every time I sit in for Joanna, I always mention that I am Scottish, proudly so, and I do want to thank everyone who has commented on it and apologies to those who still don't quite understand it. I am doing my best. Thank you to everyone who comments. Thank you to everyone who supports our independent journalism. You can keep up with every twist and turn of these crazy times. A Daily beast.com Joanna will be back with next edition of the Daily Beast podcast. Don't forget to go and binge every episode of Inside Trump's Head with her and Michael Wolf. And until the next time, as the First lady likes to remind us, be a beast and a special big shout out to our beast members Bonzo Vela, Francisco Bull, Cock DK, Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sean Shipley, and Andrea Goodell. Thank you to our producers, Devin Roger Reno and Van Olson and our editor, Jesse Millwood.