How To Talk To Roman Catholics

Good afternoon everybody. How are you? Good. Let's start with prayer.

Father, we thank you so much for this conference and the time we have together, our fellowship. Lord, the time in your word. I do ask Lord that you would get me out of the way that people would Lord forget me and remember you and what they've learned from your word here. And uh I just pray that by your spirit you would speak that you would uh grant to us um a love for our Roman Catholic friends and family and a dedication to reach them with the true gospel. The gospel that brings peace that truly brings peace. Uh please help us Lord to not just fill our heads here and our minds but also our hearts so that we will have a passion for them. And we do pray that Lord you would once and for all do away with the false gospel of uh Roman Catholicism in Jesus' name. Amen.

So there's a limited time that we have and Roman Catholic doctrine and Roman Catholic history um is is vast. It's it is large. It is there's so much to tackle. There have been so many phenomenal works and books done since the time of the reformation until now and they're still being produced really engaging with Roman Catholic dogma and claims. And so it's difficult in uh 53 minutes and 48 47 46 seconds uh to basically get you everything that you need to know. And so what I would encourage you to do is to do some reading. Do some reading and spend some time understanding the doctrine of the Roman Catholic uh church and its history, its claims. Uh there are phenomenal resources. Uh uh my fellow elder pastor James has written some great books, the Roman Catholic Controversy, The God Who Justifies, Mary Another Redeemer. Those kinds of things will be helpful to you as you begin trying to understand Roman Catholicism and how to engage them.

It's one thing I said yesterday is that we need to make sure as Christians as we're engaging particular communities, uh, counterfeit Christian cults, whatever the case may be, we need to make sure that we understand their system as as well as they do or better than they do. We don't want to misrepresent them. Uh, there have been certain books written by evangelicals about Roman Catholicism that aren't necessarily very helpful. We need to do what we can, you've heard this before, to steal man the opponent's position, give their actual position and engage with it so we can be shown to have integrity and love for the Roman Catholics. We don't want to misrepresent them. And so do your reading, do your studying, engage this because it is worth everything.

How many of you guys uh came to Christ out of Roman Catholicism? Raise your hand. So you look around this room. Uh Christine, my assistant, she came out of Roman Catholicism as well. And uh and so you look at the room, hands up again. These are all souls that God has saved and brought to peace with him through the true gospel. And so when you think about these people in the room right now, the love we have for them, you have to consider that as you engage the Roman Catholic community and those who are currently lost in it.

So I want to today not just fill you with um an abundance of information. I want to try to help you to engage this at a basic level with your Roman Catholic friend or a family member and just bring it down to a couple of issues really just three issues. One is the issue of solos scriptorera the authority and uh supremacy of scripture and justification by faith alone in Christ alone and then engage a bit with the mass because that becomes one of the most important things to engage with as you talk to the Roman Catholic their devotion to the mass and then I'll if we have time uh we'll do some of James Why are you laughing brother? Don't do that. That's I'm offended already. Um, and of course the guy from New York laughs, right? Like he has a right to do that. New Yorkers. Um, James chapter 2. James chapter 2. We'll engage a bit with that because that's going to come at uh come come out as you engage with Roman Catholics on justification by faith nine out of 10 times. So hopefully we'll get a chance to get to that.

So some foundational things. One of the great benefits of deciding I'm going to love Roman Catholics and reach them with the biblical gospel. One of the great benefits is that there's a lot less that you have to get through initially to reach them. So, for example, last night we did the Latter-day Saints, we did Mormonism. The challenge with Mormonism, as I illustrated last night, is that you have to scale the language barrier, right? So, the counterfeit Christian cults and religions, they co-opt our terminology. They take our language. And so, what you have to do is, how many of you guys listen to Cultish? Anybody listen to Cultish? Okay. So, I've known Jerry since um I was uh I call him Jerry. I've known him since I was 18 years old. And he put this best and I've taken it from him ever since he said it. He said, "When you're engaging with a Mormon, the first thing you have to do is convert them to Mormonism, real Mormonism." And what he means by that is through all of our experience out doing evangelism and missions to the Mormon people is that oftentimes you run into the Mormon today that doesn't actually fully understand Mormonism. And so you have to educate them on what Brigham Young actually said, what Joseph Smith actually said, the history of Mormonism. You're supposed to be believing these things. And so you have to get through that challenge. Then you have to also scale the language barrier and say when you're saying Jesus, we're not talking about the same person. Uh when you say Jesus, you mean uh the the the literal physical offspring of a resurrected god man and his goddess wife, Lucifer's brother. And you go on and on and on and you have to sort of explain all that and then go, Muslims have their version of Jesus, you know, not the divine son of God, didn't die on a cross, didn't rise again from the dead. and you go down the line, everyone says Jesus, but they don't mean the same thing. And so, you have to go through all that and weigh those challenges and difficulties and um provide proper definitions. And so, okay, now we can talk about God. Now, we're there, right? And then you go, okay, now we've got the right God we're talking about. Now, we have to talk about the right gospel. And so, there's just a lot of time and effort that goes into that. And really one of the glorious things about talking to Roman Catholics and reaching them on the gospel is that you're you're starting on some common ground. And you don't have to actually go through a lot of basic education on okay are we talking about the right God? Because in Roman Catholicism, other than the marolitry and the idolatry to marry, when we're talking about God proper, we agree Roman Catholics believe in what the Bible says about God, God's nature, the triune nature of God, the Father as God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. All three persons distinct, co-equal, co-eternal, sharing the one substance or being or nature of God. No denials there. They affirm the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. And they mean that. The perfect obedient life of Jesus as Messiah, the the God man, Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of God's people. Jesus conquering death physically. They don't believe in some spiritual resurrection of Jesus or that Jesus was a phantom. Jesus was raised in the same body glorified of course. Physical resurrection. Jesus ascended. Jesus is seated on his throne. Jesus is returning again. All of that affirmed. Great. We're there now. So now we can focus on, okay, we've got the right God. Now, how do I have peace with God? How do we have peace with God? And that's the most vitally important issue. As a matter of fact, that's that's it. But to get to that issue of how we have peace with God, you do have to land in a particular place to have a conversation that's meaningful because we have to ask the question of how do we answer this question of how I have peace with God? Do I go to the church fathers? Okay, which one? Which church father? You know, I want to say this, and I I've said this many times, so I I don't think people are offended by this at this point, but one of the most effective things that the Roman Catholic apologist does today is they have a marketing um a marketing way that they sell Roman Catholicism and they they tell people tales about history that are simply not true. I want to say this in terms of not imputing their motives, but they do in a sense prey on the unsuspecting or the ignorant uh about history when they say things like we have this unbroken chain of apostolic tradition. We've got the church fathers. Now, anyone who studies church history needs to understand something. Church history is a glorious mess. It is a glorious mess. And anyone who tries to pretend otherwise is just not being honest with the facts. When you try to say, "Oh, there's this this unbroken chain of of of uniformity in the church fathers and apostolic tradition." That is absolute nonsense. And anybody who's done even a little bit of study of the church fathers has to understand that it is a glorious, I say that in positive way, glorious because you have moments where it is like, am I reading Paul? Am I reading Jesus? I mean they're just quoting scripture but doing it in glorious ways. You read Athanasius, you read Augustine, you read John Chrissum, you read these guys and you're like man they are just going straight from the Bible and it is a amazing an amazing thing. And then that same author and that same giant of the faith on one page glorious next page you go what happened? What an absolute face plant? How did you go from a complete commitment to the scriptures and consistency there to an undeniable tradition that you did not get from the Bible at all and contradicts everything you just said? And so, church history is a glorious mess. And so, as you're reaching the Roman Catholic and you say, "Look, let's get to the Bible. Let's see what the Bible says about peace with God. Let's see what the Bible says about justification by faith. Let's see what the word of God says." The challenge you'll run into, and many of you probably probably have experienced this, is that you will go to the text of holy scripture, the authoritative word of God, and then they will say, "Yes, but that's not what is consistent with apostolic tradition. We have this church father that said this and this church father that said that." And so, we need to get down to the issue of authority. Who says? And that was what I told you in the first message yesterday. It fundamentally comes down to each and every time in the question of certainty and how do I know it's a question of what do I stand on? Whose voice do I listen to? And it's one of the reasons that we call presuppositional apologetics or covenantal apologetic methodology or however you want to refer to it. We refer to it as a reformed epistemology, a reformed theory of knowledge. Now I want you to consider this. Yesterday we talked about philosophy, right? We talked about epistemology. How do I know certainty? Eli today is going to be talking or did you already do it? I don't know the schedule. You already did. Okay. So, you did tag already. So, you guys already know transcendental argument for for God. You're talking about epistemology. You're talking about how do I know? You have to have preconditions there. Now, what are you getting at when you do that? Well, we're getting at as reformed people that if you're going to do philosophy, you have to have a grounding for what you're saying of certainty. And what are we saying? Ultimately, God says, God has spoken. So, you can see that presuppositional apologetics is really the the reformed apologetic. It's reformed epistemology. It's reformed epistemology come to life in the area of philosophy. Now, in this area of engaging with Roman Catholics, it's the same thing. You're learning nothing new today. All right? There's no new thing you need to put away and have a file for. It's the same claim. God has spoken. That's how I know God has spoken. There's our certainty. If you want to know, go to the revelation of God. Now, you see that in the Bible. You see that throughout church history. And it is vitally important to get in conversation with Roman Catholics. How do I know? Because again, you might as with your Christian mind be going, "Hey, Roman Catholic, go to the text. You can't get away with like from what Paul says in Romans 3 and Romans 4 and Galatians and all the other texts. You can't get away from it. And then they're going to be thinking, "Yes, but there's this other divine deposit that helps me to interpret God." And so that's where the Roman Catholic is. They believe in the authority of scripture. They believe in the word of God. You don't have to convince them of that. You don't have to convince them of the Trinity and the deity of Christ and the atonement and the resurrection. None of that has to be done. But you do have to have a grounding for the conversation that's going to allow them to see the authority of scripture as supreme because they believe that there are essentially two divine deposits when it comes to this this issue of revelation. You have the scriptures, the holy scriptures which are authoritative, but then you have the teaching of the church. You have the fathers. You have church councils. You have all of that. And that is actually designated as another deposit. Now they will in instances deny that there is an actual equality in a sense with that. But in actual practice, their second authority ends up eating away the ultimate authority, the Bible. So it's always like that. When you have another authority running alongside the Bible, that other authority becomes the ultimate authority and eats up the Bible. And so the issue of solah scriptorra is essential when talking to a Roman Catholic. and not so much in terms of you know defining it in the Latin and going through all the details of solos scriptorra but essentially this how do I know and the answer is because God says because God has spoken to this God is clear on this and so let's go to the text we can't do this exhaustively today some of it uh some of it I did for you yesterday but let's uh do a couple rehearsals again today and hopefully reiterating it will help us all to grab hold of it so you see in the history of scripture in just the book of Deuteronomy. We talked about it yesterday in Deuteronomy chapter 13, the test of a prophet. One of the tests of a prophet, there were two of them. Deuteronomy 13, where was the second one? Deuteronomy 18. The one test of a prophet in Deuteronomy 13 was that even if someone comes and has signs and wonders, the way to test it was not based upon what you saw, not based upon what you feel in some sense, but it was to be tested. They were to be tested, their teaching or their prophecy was to be tested by the previous selfdisclosure of God. His revelation prior was the standard and the reference point. So what does God say to them? That even if they have signs and wonders, but they lead you after other gods. Gods which you have not known, that's how you know they're a false prophet. So it's God's previous revelation of himself that the people of God in Israel were supposed to lean on and look towards when measuring is this person from God or not. They weren't supposed to do it on feeling and emotion and what they viewed with their eyes. They were supposed to keep in mind, God has already spoken. We know who God is. We have his revelation. I need to test not by what I see, not by sight, but what God has spoken. That's Deuteronomy 13. And remember this. Here's what's critical about this. That standard is given in the history of God's people when there is still ongoing revelation. And that's key. There's still revelation coming from God's prophets. He's still speaking through the mouth, the mouths of prophets, but he still tells them to lean on that prior revelation in Isaiah 8:20. We did this one yesterday. Who can quote it for me? Nice and loud. Anyone know? Isaiah 8:20. Okay, I quit. No. Okay. 8:20. What is that? To the law and to the testimony. If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no what in them? No light in them. So to the law and to the testimony. If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no light in them. Now that's a test once again that's coming at a time of redemptive history that there's still ongoing revelation. So, here's a prophet giving you giving you ongoing revelation from God and the test and standard are still the same to the law and to the testimony. Here's what you look to. God's revelation is is there. You know, his revelation. You test these prophets. You test those who teach and speak in the name of God by the law and the testimony. That's the standard. If they don't speak in accordance with what God has previously revealed, they have no light in them. So, do you want to know if this teaching or tradition is light or darkness? The answer is going to be found in the law and the testimony, meaning the previous revelation of God. There's the standard. Of course, Jesus explains to us what the plum line is, what the measuring line is. It's how do you know something is true and right? And Jesus says in his high priestly prayer, he says, "Father, sanctify them by your truth." What's he say? Your word, thy word is truth. It is the standard. It's the plum line. It's how you know if something is actually right, actually true. Your word is the truth.

Now when we talk about this question of tradition versus the authoritative scripture, we want to ask the question, do we have an example from Jesus? I mean Jesus is the God man. He's perfect humanity and he is fully God, truly God. Do we have an example from Jesus navigating a conflict with the authoritative word of God and some sort of divine tradition? Do we have any examples of how Jesus would model for us how to engage with something like that? And it's interesting on this question when you look at the parallels, it is truly fascinating when you look at the parallels between what the Roman Catholic Church says today about scripture and tradition and you compare that to what was happening in the first century during second temple Judaism and you see what they knew about the scriptures, what they believed about the holy scriptures. They accepted as the word of God completely and fully, but they also had what they considered to be divine traditions passed down. The parallels are astonishing. It sounds like the same thing at points. The same claims are being made. Just consider that in Jesus' day, Jesus is being chastised. He's being chastised by religious leaders who affirmed the Torah, the Tanakh, the writings, the word of God. They affirmed it. They knew what it was. As I said to you yesterday, they had those books laid up in the Jewish temple. They know their Bibles. They revere the Bible. They love the scriptures. They know it. But they also had a commitment to things that were handed down, passed down over time. So they would chastise Jesus. Hey Jesus, how come your disciples go about with these unwashed hands? Hey Jesus, how come this? How come that? Why are you doing this? The Sabbath question. What's going on? They had all the ways that they had these traditions that mark their lives and they felt like they had to live by these things. You can see it um in a more graphic way today in uh even some sections of New York City and other cities where you'll see how the Jewish community lives, right? He has some strange practices, just weird practices and ways that we can um uh do the Sabbath properly and yet live a modern life. And so they'll have special ways that like, well, I didn't actually work cuz I didn't touch it because it was automatic. I used my voice. Or, you know, ways that they're they use their their oven in their kitchen so that they're not technically working on the Sabbath or the ways that they'll walk a certain way because I'm not technically working. So they they pack around the question of the Sabbath all these extra traditions and they believe that that's from God. They don't they don't believe they're doing it because just some man said to do it. They believe this is from God. This tradition really comes to us from God. It's happening today. It was happening in Jesus' day. And it happens in principle the same in Roman Catholicism. We have the scriptures but we also have the teaching magisterium of the church. We have the papacy. We have this tradition that's considered from God that we have to follow because God has protected his church, preserved his church by giving his church these traditions. And it's basically line with the Bible. We have the Bible, but we interpret the Bible through the lens of that tradition. To which we could say as reformed folks who have done our homework in history, um which tradition uh which councils because even the councils disagree with themselves at points. The church fathers disagree with themselves at points. And wouldn't you know it, what are the church fathers? Not inspired men. They are fallible human beings with an infallible word. And at times those fallible men face plant, collapse, contradict themselves. And you see in history so much complicated so many complicated things in church history where you have church fathers and even quote popes arguing with each other over essential issues and important issues. So we have to ask the question does Jesus give us an example anywhere of how he managed the question of authoritative scripture and a divine or sacred tradition? The answer is yes. We did some of it last night, but go to it in your Bible so you can see it with your own eyes. Matthew 15. And this one, I think, is a critically important one to bring to your Roman Catholic friends. I have someone very close to me that I love dearly who converted to Roman Catholicism. And this was actually one of the most powerful points of my conversation where I brought him to Matthew chapter 15. I had him just read the text as it was. it is clear what's happening here and was able to get him to to admit yes it doesn't matter how old the tradition is how ancient it is how revered it is if it contradicts Jesus words or the word of God it must be thrown away it's that clear in Jesus uh sorry in Jesus chapter 15 wouldn't that be cool you guys like Jeff um sorry I didn't sleep well last night I don't do I don't do well anymore with the time change um when I go east always messes me up. So, if I start saying heresy, just someone pull me off. Um, uh, Matthew chapter 15, starting in verse one. Here's the text. Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." All right, so there's a tradition and they're imposing it as authoritative. Just consider that, not optional. Why are you guys doing this? Violating the tradition of the elders? What you're doing is wrong, Jesus. How come you're not following the tradition? And so he answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, honor your father and your mother, and whoever reviles father or mother must surely die." But you say, "If anyone tells his father or his mother," what you would have gained from me is given to God. He need not honor his father. So for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites. Well did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. In vain do they worship me." Here it is. Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. How dare you, Jesus? How dare you? Probably what they were thinking. How how dare you vilify the teaching of the elders in that way. How how dare you dismiss this this tradition in the way that you ju you just did? But that's exactly what Jesus does. He dismisses their sacred tradition, their divine tradition, what they had to live by. He dismisses it out of hand. And how so? He gives him a better example of actually it's you that has the problem. Here's what the word of God says about mothers and fathers, about honoring your father and your mother. And by the way, it is interesting here when people think that um, you know Jesus just sort of does away with the law of God. Here he is in Matthew chapter 15 saying this really powerful text about the death penalty. It's powerful. But he's now addressing something called the Cororban rule. And it was uh we can't get into all the details today, but it essentially was a belief, a tradition uh that you could essentially take the money that would have been used to care for your aging parents and you could say, "Well, I gave it to God, so you know, God's more important than my mother and father." And Jesus is like, "No, no, no, no, no. All of your religiosity here, all of this stuff, trying to get around God's law to care for your parents and saying, "Well, I gave it to God, gave it to the temple, he that's sin. It's sin." By the way, take note, kids, children. As the law of God has uh very particularly important things to say about caring for our aging parents as as they get older, they took care of us as we were growing up. We are supposed to care for them and take care of their needs as they're aging and um going to be with the Lord. And so Jesus is highlighting that. But notice what Jesus says. He says, "For the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God." And how does Jesus get to that conclusion with them? He says, "Here's what Moses says. Here's what God's word says. Here's your tradition." And all he does is he compares the two voices. Remember fundamentally, what is the what is the whole place of certainty? God says, the revelation of God, the voice of God. So how does Jesus manage the controversy with these traditions? He says God says you say take the two voices and see are they consistent or are they in collision with each other and Jesus demonstrates very simply with God says you say you've made void the word of God for the sake of your tradition. That is how the incarnate God man deals with the controversy of scripture and tradition. He says you must test your traditions by scripture. Now watch this. Here's what's important here. There are instances throughout the New Testament where you can see that a tradition isn't condemned. Right? There are things that Jesus even participated in that weren't necessarily required in scripture, good traditions. And I want to say this, Christians have some pretty healthy, biblically grounded traditions that are solid and good. You should be able to do them, right? There's nothing wrong with them. They're consistent with scripture or not opposed to scripture and they may be healthy and they may be good and we shouldn't condemn one another because we have a particular tradition. So, how many of you guys are Presbyterian in here? Okay, there you go. Finally, you guys are confident about it. How many of you guys are reformed Baptists in here? Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. Okay. Sorry. Just kidding. Uh, and other No, that's all I care about. No, I'm just Any Anglicans in here? Right on. Good. Uh, charismatics. Yes. All right. Right on. Okay. and he was the loudest one in here. Typical. No, no, I'm just joking. Um, so we can have healthy traditions that we can respect with one another, but we can't elevate those traditions to the level of divine inspired tradition. So in the Westminster confession, that's a particular tradition within uh Christianity. In the Reformed Baptist Confession is a particular tradition within um uh Christianity and and on and on. And so there's nothing wrong necessarily with traditions. There are healthy traditions. It's a question of whether or not that tradition contradicts holy scripture. That's the most important issue. And what Jesus does is not condemn in scripture healthy traditions and just, you know, solid biblical traditions. He's confronting the tradition that contradicts God's word. And I want to just say this, there's no way out of that. There's no way out of that. This is as clear as can be. Here is an instance that the Roman Catholic who rever Jesus as the divine son of God can look at and see Jesus is addressing the question of scripture and tradition. And he's demonstrating to the people of God for all time that it is right and proper for us to take what God says and contrast it with what the tradition says. And Jesus is telling us in this instance that if your tradition, no matter how revered it is or how divine it is, if that tradition contradicts the plain words of God, you must say that your tradition is making void the word of God. And that is our claim as reformed people about Roman Catholic dogma and tradition that contradicts scripture. We're not arguing over, you know, small things like doing the sign of the cross. If you want to do that, go right ahead. There's nothing wrong with that. It can't be something you just make a big deal out of. But when you start elevating Mary to co-mediatrix with Jesus and saying that she's the dispenser of divine graces and you start saying that she's going to save us from the wrath of Jesus and all these things in Roman Catholic tradition, this is where we depart and we say that that is idolatry. You must turn from that. Mary cannot save you. when Rome starts adding things to the the Christian faith by saying things like the papacy, the immaculate conception and all of the things that Rome has added and had doctrinal um uh development over time when all those things start getting added to Christians and their consciences and people saying you uh you have to actually believe this day fed that if you reject this you are not a Christian you are outside of the church and all the rest when they start doing that we must protest And we must protest not because of our own subjective experience or our feelings. We're protesting because the words of God are clear about these issues and we can be confident in rejecting those things. Amen.

So, we also must consider the nature of scripture. Roman Catholics aren't going to disagree with this, but it's good to make sure that we're communicating this to them. You have examples in scripture where Jesus is dealing with conflict and controversy. And what is Jesus doing to settle it? It is interesting. Jesus can pull rank. Obviously, he's God. So, there were controversies where Jesus can just speak authoritatively. I mean, you're talking to the creator himself. When he speaks, shut up, right? You know, he can say what he wants because he's God and we listen to him. He can do that. But don't you find it fascinating? Don't you find it fascinating that when God becomes a man and he is the perfect humanity and image of God walking among us, how we are all supposed to be, how we all ought to be. Isn't it fascinating that though he could pull rank whenever he wants, he demonstrates to the people of God how the image of God is supposed to engage these issues by saying like in Matthew chapter 20 uh 22:31 when he's being challenged on the question about the resurrection, what does Jesus say to to answer the issue of the dispute on the resurrection? The Sadducees versus the Pharisees. You know the whole thing. Pharisees believed in little resurrection. Sadducees believed in a spiritual and that's why they were sadde. You know, you know that, right? How does he answer that? Have you not read what was spoken to you by God? Now, let that set for a minute. Don't let it pass you. Uh wait, Jesus. Uh that actually wasn't spoken to them. That was spoken to other Jews long before. So what are you saying to the Jews in front of you in that day? Why? How are you saying it was spoken to them? Well, because these are the words of God. And when you read the word of God, you are reading what God is speaking. And so people say, 'You know, I really need to hear God speak to me today. I just really wish God would would speak to me, Tim. Great. Here you go. Open this. Read that for a bit. That's God's speech. Now, that's not just a cute thing to say. That's how Jesus puts it. You want to hear the voice of God in your life? Read scripture. That's God speaking. How do I know? Because Jesus says, "Have you not read what was spoken to you by God?" He equates the reading of scripture as God speaking. And so to the Roman Catholic, we have to say, I know you believe in the authority of scripture. I know you have reverence for the word of God, but you have to consider that this is the very speech of God. God has spoken. Have you not read what was spoken to you by God? Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. That's the speech of God. And brothers and sisters, just as a side note here, don't you find it so fascinating when these religions uh twist the word of God and they twist the message of scripture and the gospel itself. Don't you find it fascinating that they will actually have the audacity to say, "Yes, these are the words of God. Yes, God is almighty and God has spoken. Amen and hallelujah to that." But see, the problem is you need an interpreter. And don't you think that's fascinating? Just think about what that's saying about God. The almighty, all powerful God can speak, but the all powerful God can't communicate to his creatures clearly. So what he needs is a fallible creature to interpret his words so that I can understand. In other words, the voice of God gets diminished and lowered and the elevation is to the voice of the creature doing the interpreting. I can't understand God, but I can understand this fallible, broken creature. I need the creature to interpret God for me. I'm sorry, brothers and sisters. That's not how God does it. When Jesus is is engaging with their tradition, he says, God says, you say, put them together. You've made void the word of God. It's as simple as that. It's not to say that there aren't hard things to understand in scripture. Peter acknowledges that. Peter acknowledges that about Paul's writings. He says about Paul's writings that Paul says some things in his writings that are hard to understand. They're difficult to understand. And so Roman Catholics will seize on that and say, "Aha, look, Paul says things that are hard to understand." And that's why you need the interpretation of the church so you can understand those hard things. To which I would say, please keep reading Peter. He says they're hard to understand. And he says this, "Untable men twist his words as they do the rest of the scriptures." Which is, by the way, Peter saying that Paul's writings are scripture equated to the Old Testament. But he's saying the problem is not in God's ability to communicate. The problem is in the unstable and untaught person who tries to handle the words of God. Do you get the point? We don't need a fallible human interpreter to stand above scripture to make sure we can really tell you what God is saying. We have the holy words of God. Amen.

Okay. So, a couple things in terms of quotes. Roman Catholics will say, and it's honestly sometimes it's it's frustrating to hear the marketing PS and just the the the claims about history by Roman Catholic apologists that are just absolutely um undeniably ignorant, false. Uh they'll say things like solid, faith alone is an invention of Martin Luther and uh the reformers. To which I would say, how much history do you need of the fathers where they are affirming justification by faith alone and Christ alone? How much do you need? I mean, if I give you your giants that are saying it, will you yield at that point? Or they'll say things like uh soloscriptorra was invented during the reformation. It's it's it's it's fascinating to me because it's in all of our favorites. All of our favorites in church history are teaching these things. Nothing in the Reformation, get this. Nothing in the Reformation was new. Get that? The Reformation wasn't a restorationist movement. Oh, the church is gone. They lost the gospel. The reformers weren't saying that. They were saying, "Uh, we've lost our way a bit. We're slipping. We're in trouble. This is wrong. These are false doctrines." And their point at many points was simply this. Hey guys, Rome, today you don't even agree with the fathers. you've lost your way. You've crossed that distance. Now you disagree with the fathers on this point. And so and the issue of um solos scriptorra, just a couple things in terms of the church fathers uh saying exactly what I've been saying to you. Gregory of Nissa makes this uh point. He says, quote, "When then is our reply? We do not think that it is right to make their prevailing custom the law and rule of sound doctrine. For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too surely may advance our prevailing custom. And if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired scripture then be our umpire. And the vote of truth will be surely will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the divine words. What's that? Solar scriptor. Solar scriptor. How's this going? Did it go out? So, I can yell loud. There you go. Okay. Lions, we have learned from none others the plan of our salvation than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public and at a later period by the will of God handed down to us in the scriptures to be the ground and pillar of our faith. There's so many guys. I have so many quotations here, but I'll give you my favorites. Athanasius of Alexandria. Athanasius Contraundum. My favorite Christian in history. He's the patron saint of postmillennialism. He says, "These are fountains of salvation that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. For concerning these, the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, "Ye do not knowing the scriptures." And he repu reproved the Jews, saying, "Search the scriptures, for these are they that testify of me." We're running out of time here. Ask me later. I'll give you many more quotes. But this is all throughout the fathers.

Next, and this is the key issue, justification by faith. Go to your Bibles if you would to Romans chapter 3, Romans chapter 3. Many people have called book of Romans, the letter of Paul to the church in Rome, the gospel according to St. Paul. I think that's a a good way to put it. This is the Apostle Paul explaining the gospel in detail from the bottom all the way up. And so, if we're going to understand what justification is, how a person is brought to peace with God, we need to listen to the inspired apostle. Again, in a short period of time, we could never even begin to unpack all of this. But in Romans chapter 3, we need to know our way around Romans chapters 3 and four and five and six and seven and 8. Know your way through there because this is Paul explaining the way a person has peace with God and explaining issues like sanctification all together in a small section. And so I would say this, if you want to be effective in your evangelism to Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, you need to know just this simple section of scripture like the back of your hand. Put it away into your heart like treasure. Romans chapters 3-8 clearly understanding what God says here. Romans chapter 3, you know the text starting in verse 9. What then are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin. As it is written, none is righteous, know not one. No one understands. No one seeks for God. All have turned aside. Together they have become worthless. No one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood. In their paths are ruined and misery. And the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now, stop there for a moment. This is an indictment upon all of humanity. Jews and Greeks, Jews and Gentiles, you are in this. I am in this. This is the true portrait of fallen humanity. There is none who does good. Know not one. Let that be the indictment upon every single person who's trying to get right by right with God through their own good works or cooperation of grace and works. There's none who does good. There's none who's righteous. Well, maybe some. No, not one, Paul says. So, there's the indictment upon all humanity. You're not going to make it. You can't do this. You think you're good. You're not good. The Pharisees, not good. The Sadducees, not good. Paul, not good. Peter, not good. Moses, not good. David, not good. Isaiah, not good. Not righteous before God. That's the problem. That's why you need Jesus. And the problem with so many different religions is they believe that somehow even through a cooperating cooperating effort with God, I can somehow have a righteousness infused in me or in me in such a way that God can look at me and see me as righteous or good in some way. And Paul says this, nobody is good. There is none who is righteous. That is the bottom part of the gospel as you explain it. You have to communicate your total alienation from God and your brokenness. It's the distinction you see in Jesus story of the Pharisee and the tax collector. You know that story. The Pharisee weirdly because he knows the Torah. Weirdly, the Pharisee is near the temple and he's looking up to God and he says, "What?" Watch this. And here's what's amazing. People think, "Oh, don't worry. We've got grace, too." Like, yes, we believe it's, you know, we have to do the sacraments. We have to do all these things, go through the system, participate in mass, and we got to do all this stuff, of course, to be really right with God or, you know, there's going to be some problems and we have purgatory. That's all part of the story. But no, no, listen. We're not saying that it's like all us. We do agree that we do need the grace of God. We're not denying the grace of God. Here's my point. Neither was the Pharisee. I mean, there's not many religions that are so bold to say, "I don't need God's help," or, "I don't need his grace." Mormons say they need grace. Jehovah's Witnesses say they need grace. Roman Catholics say they need grace. No. Who Who's as bold to say that they don't need God's grace? The Pharisee said the same thing. The Pharisee says, "God, I thank you that I'm not like other men." Just consider that for a second. He's giving God the credit and the glory and the thanks for how God has made him righteous, more righteous than the tax collector over here. God, I thank you that I'm not like other men. And what does he do? He starts appealing to all of his works, all of his good deeds, all of his acts of righteousness. I tithe of all that I get. And he starts listing off all the things. So God, I thank you. Thank you for your grace. Thank you for making me by your grace and your work like this and not like this miserable tax collector over here. And then Jesus shifts the story. And listen, if you don't see yourself in this story, you better you you had better. And if you if you never did, see it now. Maybe this would be the day of your real conversion because Jesus shifts the story now over to the miserable, disgusting, vilified tax collector of the day. And Jesus gives this, you know, most revered and respected Pharisee, right? Even Paul, even Paul when he's being persecuted, he appeals to the fact that he's a Pharisee. Right? You

Want to know my resume? I'm a Pharisee. As to the law, a Pharisee. So Jesus has this perfect contrast. Here's the Pharisee, the most revered, respected guy, right? Highest, strongest school according to the law. And Jesus knows that. He says, "Okay, Pharisee and then the scum, tax collectors."

Not much has changed. Um, sorry. We'll cut that out of for the IRS to not see that. Um, but Jesus now shifts the story and the story shifts to where the tax collector is is far off. He doesn't feel worthy enough to get close to the temple. He doesn't feel worthy enough to be close to God's presence. The Pharisee was so bold and so self-righteous that he thought he belonged near God's presence. But the tax collector doesn't even think he's worthy to be close. Right? And it says that the tax collector doesn't even have the ability, the courage, or feels like he has the right to even look up to God. And so all the tax collector is doing in that story is he's beating something. What's he beating? His chest, which is significant, by the way, because in Jewish thought, and you see this throughout the Bible, in the Old Testament specifically, and the book of Proverbs, it's right there. The heart to the Jewish mind, the heart was the seat of your will, your passions, like who you really were is down here in the heart. They didn't mean physically the heartbeat here, but they would refer to the heart as a place that this is like the real me, like the source of all my choices, my actions, my decisions, my motives, my passions. It's all here, right? And so, it's interesting is that this tax collector is a ways off. He won't look up to God. And all he's doing, it says, is he's beating his chest. It's like he's trying to tear at the very source of his rebellion against God. He's trying to get to the source of it. And all he can say to God is simply this. He says, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner." That's his only appeal. Nothing. Not his tithing, not his works, not his righteousness, not how he's become before God because of God's grace. He recognizes he has nothing. He won't even look up to God. I'm ashamed to even speak your direction, God. And he's like tearing at the source like God if I could just get this out of me. He's tearing at the source and all he says to God is this. He says God have mercy on me a sinner.

And so Jesus says he says that the tax collector went home what? Justified. Like he didn't go home to start the process of justification. He didn't go home to start to really now work on it with God. It says that he left that place. He went to his house justified. Which means what about the Pharisee? He went to hell. The Pharisee, the one who acknowledged the goodness of God's grace that made him so righteous and so good. The Pharisee who said, "Thank you, God, that you made me like this and not like other men, and here's all the things that I do." The Pharisee went to hell and the tax collector only came to God and said, "I don't have anything but your mercy. That's all I have." That's the portrait that Jesus gives about salvation and how a person has peace with God. And isn't it interesting? It's exactly what Paul says. That's exactly how a person is justified before God in Paul's explanation of the gospel. And listen again, we can't unpack all of Rome's teachings here today, but Rome anathematizes officially anathematizes, calls the curse of God down upon anybody who teaches justification by faith alone in Christ alone. They have condemned the gospel. It wasn't always the case. It wasn't always the case that Rome officially anathematized the gospel. It was as a result of the reformation and the light of the gospel breaking in that Rome had to respond. And when they responded, I agree with Dr. RC Sproul. When they responded with the anathematizing of the biblical gospel, that was the death nail in Roman Catholicism where Roman Catholicism falls officially deeply into apostasy at that point when they officially responded with that. But they've anathematized Paul's gospel. Paul says, "Here is the portrait of humanity." It's consistent with what he says everywhere else, too. We did it last night. What does he say? He says, "You were dead in your sins and trespasses by nature, children of wrath, not children of God. You are dead spiritually, by nature, a child of wrath." And what do you need? You need the but God part. But God. But God made you alive together with him. By grace, you've been saved. This is a work of God. It's what Augustine taught. Augustine taught this. And by the way, some of you guys are judging me right now. You're like, "It's Augustine, right?" Or whatever. Don't do that. You little scholarly snobs. Don't do that. Um, I say Augustine because my son's name is Augustine. I'm always going to say that. So, you know, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I like it. Um, Augustine taught exactly the same thing. Monergism. When he spoke about the grace of God in regeneration and the sovereignty of God over salvation. Augustine is with the reformers on monarchism. He's with the reformers. And then Rome will come along and say, "Ah, yeah, but Augustine taught this Roman Catholic doctrine, this Roman Catholic doctrine." I go, "Yeah, he's a fallible human being. He had a lot of face plants. Augustine isn't an inspired apostle, but he is on our side with the Reformation on this." And so, amen to that.

But no, look here. The text. Oh, a minute left. What time is the Q&A? We don't need a Q&A today. No. Okay. Um, let's um let's um go to Romans chapter 3 verse 19. Now, we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight. Since through the law comes the knowledge of sin. Now he just told us that everybody is under sin. Everybody is not righteous. There is nobody good. So how do you solve the problem? Well, Paul says you're not going to solve it through the law. The law itself is going to shut everybody's mouth. The whole world's going to be held accountable to God by his law. Now, Roman Catholics will try to say, oh, actually, you know, what Paul is referring to there with works of the law, a very precise term he's using there. And what he's referring to there are specific Jewish works of the law, things like circumcision and, you know, the ceremonial things to which I would say, please read the text. Are we really suggesting that God on the last day is going to judge the entire world and shut everybody's mouth before his throne by circumcision? No, the law is going to shut everybody's mouth on the last day because you will see in God's law what? That you are an adulterer, that you are a liar, that you are a thief, that you are an idolator, and on and on and on. All of our injustices, our factious nature, our divisive nature, the fact that we are unjust with people, that we make accusations against others without proper witness and evidence, that we believe things that are said, a claim of somebody before we've even heard the other side, that we show partiality in judgment, that we don't care for the widows and the orphans among us, that we don't correct oppression and establish justice. These are sins against God in his law that God will bring to bear on every soul on the last day. Every idle word is going to be held accountable. But Paul says the law is going to justify nobody. So he begins to explain how but now the righteousness of God has been manifest manifested apart from the law. Although although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe for there's no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by his grace as a gift. I don't know if you've ever heard me speaking on this before. It's my favorite thing to point out here um in the Greek here behind the text. Justified by his grace as a gift is like stuttering. So Paul was saying, what Paul is saying here is that you are justified as a gift gift. You're justified. How what kind of what kind of it's a gift gift. It's a gift gift. It's it's so gift. It's say it twice. It's a grace gift. It's a gift gift. And he says through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by what everybody? By what? >> By faith. This was to show God's forbearance. Because in the his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has what? >> Faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded by what kind of law? By law of works? No, but by the law of faith. And here it is. Roman Catholics will often say, "Show me in the Bible where it says that we are justified by faith apart from works." I would say which book do you want to start with in the New Testament? We have whole discourses on it. But if you're looking for a verse, if that's what you really want, a a a justification by faith alone verse. Well, here's one. The Apostle Paul says under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as an authoritative apostle, he says, "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." So for Paul, he takes this now and says faith and works. And he says, "We hold, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." What is faith over here by itself apart from works of the law? What is it? Faith alone. We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Faith alone standing there apart from the works. Faith alone.

Now here is the main point to communicate. Key issue and this handles the issues of the mass as well. Here's the way Paul explains it and this is what Rome cannot give. What then shall we say was gained by Abraham our forefather according to the flesh? Romans 4:1. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? There is the appeal again. The inspired apostle, he can speak authoritatively. He's an inspired apostle. He does it numerous times. But when he's answering the questions, he appeals to the authority of scripture. He says, "What does the scripture say?" Abraham believed God and it was counted to him or credited to him as righteousness. Now when did that take place? Before the law was given. Now really really important too. What where what else took place after Abraham was justified? Circumcision. What else? Isaac on the altar. That's key by the way. Memorize that. It's a huge point. Isaac on the altar. Abraham was justified by faith probably about 20 years before Isaac was presented on the altar. He was justified by faith before circumcision. He was justified by faith hundreds of years before the law was given. Abraham was justified by faith. What did he give to God? What did he do? Nothing. Nothing. Oh, he did something. Some ritual. No, it was before that. Uh he demonstrated his faith that it was a living faith and real faith by his son on the altar. Now that's like 20 years later. Uh he obeyed the law and no it it hadn't been been given by Moses yet. So what did Abraham do? Believed. He just believed God and it was credited to him or imputed to him or charged to him as righteousness. Now here's the point to make to the Roman Catholic friend or family member. If you truly believe that you are the true faith and the true expression of Christian religion and you are truly sons and daughters of Abraham, if Abraham is truly your father, then you have to look like his child, meaning that your faith has to be the same as him. And if you're saying that you are justified through a combination of faith and obedience and works and cooperation, then your faith doesn't look like Abraham's. Do you get the point? If you are truly the heirs of Abraham, and that is new covenant stuff there, that is the blessings that we have. If you are truly sons and daughters of Abraham, then your faith has to look like Abraham's. You know who looks like Abraham's? The reformed faith. Many of the church fathers because what are we saying in the reformation that we have no plea before God. We have nothing. We have no works, no righteousness. We have zero. We can offer nothing up to God. All we have is an empty hand. All we have is trust in another. All we have is trust in God, in our savior, and in his promises. That's all we have. It is only through that faith that we are joined to Christ. And we have nothing like father Abraham. Our faith looks like his faith. But look what it says. It says, "For what does the scripture say?" Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies. What's the word there everyone? The ungodly. Some translations say what? The wicked but believes in him who justifies the wicked. His faith is counted as righteousness. Just a point to be made here. Again, we can't go into all the details here, but Rome believes in an infusion of grace, something that actually transforms the person, the state of the person in a sense where that God can look at them and say, "Okay, I see in you now a level of righteousness that's acceptable to me." And so there's this cooperation that takes place, this obedience that takes place that actually changes the person in such a way that they are now looking acceptable to God. Okay, so justification works through this process in Rome. But what's the text say? It says that if you're working for it, then you're earning a wage and this is no longer a gift. Like when you go to get your paycheck from your boss, like he doesn't put it into like a gift wrapped box and say, "Hey, I was feeling very generous. Here you go." like you would say, "Uh, no, I worked for two weeks for that. That's inappropriate to put it in a box." If you happen to have a separate thing that's a gift above that, I'll take that in the box. But the wage you owe me. And that's Paul's argument that if you're working for justification, if you're working for salvation, if you're working for this, then what you get for working is a wage and that's not a gift. And so he's saying that's not gospel because salvation is a gift of God. But then he says something very important. He says to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the wicked, the ungodly. Did you know that Joseph Smith when he was doing his Joseph Smith translation translation when he was doing the translation he came to Romans 4 here and it so didn't make sense to him that he changed the words to does not justify the ungodly. He couldn't make sense of um he couldn't make sense of like God justifying the wicked. That doesn't make any sense. How could God declare righteous a wicked person? How could God declare righteous an ungodly person? Exactly. That's the glory of the gospel. God is not looking at a wicked person like you or me and ourselves and saying, you know what, I look at you and I'm going to say I see righteousness. That's not what he does. The reason that when he looks at us, he declares us righteous is because we actually have the righteousness of another credited to us. It's Jesus's righteousness that's the basis of my justification before before God. It's not my life. It's not my life uh 5 years ago or right now or when I'm really sanctified hopefully 25 years from now. That's not the basis of my relationship with God. My justification and yours is based upon the fact that we are hiding in Jesus covered in his righteousness. And the father looks at him and declares me righteous based upon his righteousness. And on that cross, the father was looking at Jesus and counting him as guilty as me. Do you see the great exchange? The great exchange. And so God declares the unrighteous to be righteous. But here it is. And this is what Rome cannot give you with its gospel, with its hamster wheel of sacraments and works and grace and faith and works and cooperation and mass. Oh, I missed the mass. Now I have to be accountable for these new sins. I got to get to the new mass where they get washed away. Then 5 days later, new sins, new mass, representation over and over and over. No peace. Here's what Paul says. Verse six, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. Rome, as Pastor James says often, does not have the blessed man. There's no blessed man in Rome. You've even heard in some debates with Pastor James when he's debated Roman Catholics on this point. Ask the question to well-known, respected Roman Catholic priests and representatives, apologists. Are you the blessed man? Here's what Paul says to a Roman Catholic. Are you the blessed man? Are you the blessed woman? Are you? And the answer is I hope so. I don't know. Maybe. I really hope so. The text here is explicit. God counts righteousness apart from works. He forgives all of your sins and he will not ever count it against you. What's that? That is a positive crediting of righteousness apart from works. And it's a not counting your sins. Blessed is the man. Rome cannot give you peace.

Final word, then we're done. Romans 5:1. Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, what's that? Since we have been have been past tense, since we have been declared righteous, justified by faith, what do we have? Peace with God. Rome's gospel does not bring peace. It does not bring peace. There's a actually famous debate James had on this particular text. He was debating Mitch Pacqua on this text, Romans 51. You were probably moderating that debate. Um, and James asked him about this verse, "Father Pacwood, is this you? Do you have peace with God?" He said he didn't know. He said he didn't know. Now, if if we have faith in Christ, we can affirm this promise and say, "I trust in Jesus. He is my sole hope and I trust in his work and his righteousness alone. And so the promise to me is that I've been declared righteous and I right now have peace with my God. It's not the sin of presumption to affirm what the apostle John says. These things have written unto you that believe in the name of the son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. That's the glory of the gospel and that's what Roman Catholics don't have. You need to go tell them. Amen. All right. Thank you. Let's pray. Father, thank you for your word. I pray you bless Lord the rest of this time we have together for your glory and kingdom in Jesus name.