Transcription
In the Bible, Jesus never says, "In order to be healed, eat this food, right? Take this medication, get this surgery." He says, "Your faith or your belief has healed you."
Jesus was an exorcist. Jesus believed in demons, in Satan. Jesus believed in angels. And so, if we are followers of his, we ought to take seriously some of these things that he believed.
There was a woman who was blind from an incurable condition. She was blind for a dozen years. She went to a school for the blind. She learned to read Braille. She walked with a white cane. and she married a pastor. And one night they're getting ready to go to bed and she's in bed and he comes over and he begins to cry. And he puts his hand on her shoulder and he begins to pray and he prays, "God, I know you can heal my wife. I know you can do it and Lord, I pray you do it tonight." And with that, she opened her eyes to perfect eyesight. Wow. She said, "I was blind when he prayed for me and then I opened my eyes and I could see perfectly. It's a miracle." How do you explain that? That is a case uh researched by multiple medical researchers and published in a peer-reviewed medical journal.
This is probably gonna be one of the most controversial parts of this episode because so many people today watch horror movies because they love this sort of the thrill and that feeling of adrenaline, but I I believe it's this there there's a darkness there. Boy, you know, I'll be honest. That's the first time anybody's made that observation to me. You're on to something. If Satan wanted to do maximum damage, is he going to hang out in Chattanooga, Tennessee? I think he's going to go maybe to a place like Hollywood.
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Hey everyone, welcome to the Dr. Josh Axe Show. Today I've got an incredible guest, Lee Strobo. He's a New York Times best-selling author. Uh he's also a graduate of Yale. And today we're going to be talking about the power of the supernatural and seeing the supernatural. If you're a person struggling with your health and you want to experience a breakthrough, you can heal supernaturally. In this episode, we're going to be talking through how my mom healed from cancer. Part of it was a supernatural healing. Uh we're going to talk to Lee about things like near-death experiences. We're going to talk about angels. We're going to talk about demons and so much more. This is a little bit out of the box, but we are going to dive into how this impacts your health mentally, physically, and spiritually.
Lee, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much. Great to be with you.
Well, I'm a big fan of your work. I know that you've written many books like The Case for Christ, which of course was just a massive, massive bestseller for probably still is for for years and years and years. And you've recently wrote wrote a book uh called Seeing the Supernatural, right? And this is a topic I love because uh I I have focused a lot on in my career a lot on science but also a lot on faith in Christianity and and miraculous healing. You've shown how they connect which a lot of people don't see the connection.
I I've tried you know and and I I think for myself a lot of it was through experience and I'll just just to give you example here to start off. My mom was diagnosed with cancer twice and the first time we went through conventional treatments. The second time we did all natural treatments and she reversed it. of times we did. Along with that though, and this is something I haven't brought up, one time my mom had a cancer scare. She went in for a scan and this is outside of those two times and they found um tumors. They found cancerous tumors on her and we were so worried about it. We of course and we just we spent a lot of time in prayer. I mean two weeks praying and praying and praying and my mom said, "I feel like I need to go back in. I feel like it's gone." And we went back in. This is in Columbus, Ohio, Ohio State Medical Center. went back in and the tumors were gone. Wow. Completely gone. And she hasn't had cancer since. My mom's in her early '7s. Oh my gosh. And and we experienced this in the doctors where it's just like we we can't explain this. We we don't know where they went. And there are so many instances and people don't realize this, but so often where those sort of things have happened.
Well, absolutely. In my book, Seeing the Supernatural, I deal with these kind of miracles. But for me, and I come from a skeptical background, used to be an atheist, um, and trained in journalism and law. And so, I'm looking for facts and data and evidence and cor uh, corroboration and so forth. So, to me, when I look at a apparent miracle, I look at a couple of things. I look at number one, do we have solid medical documentation? Number two, do we have um testimony by eyewitnesses who have no motive to deceive? Uh number three, um um do we have something that took place in the context of prayer? Um uh which is I think is an important connection. So there's different things I try to look at. Is there no natural explanation that can explain it away? In other words, could it have been something naturalistic that took place? But I'm telling you, there are studies published in peer-reviewed medical journals about documented cases of miracles.
I'll give you a couple examples. There was a woman who was blind um from an incurable condition. She was blind for a dozen years. She went to a school for the blind. She learned to read Braille. She walked with a white cane. And she married a pastor. And one night, they're getting ready to go to bed. And she's in bed. And he comes over and he begins to cry. And he puts his hand on her shoulder. and he begins to pray and he prays, "God, I know you can heal my wife. I know you can do it and Lord, I pray you do it tonight." And with that, she opened her eyes to perfect eyesight. Wow. Um, she said, "I was blind when he prayed for me and then I opened my eyes and I could see perfectly. It's a miracle." And her eyesight remained perfect for 50 years plus. Wow. So, how do you explain that? That is a case uh researched by multiple medical researchers and published in a peer-reviewed medical journal as a case study. That to me that's a solid case.
There was another baby who was born with uh what's called uh gastroparesis, paralysis of the stomach. Mhm. It's not a, you know, it it occurs occasionally and as a result, the baby could not keep down food and they had to operate and put in tubes so that the food would go directly from the stomach right into the small intestine. Well, the the kid grew up and it was uncomfortable and it was difficult and he couldn't eat certain things. It was restrictive. And when he was 16 years old, his parents brought him to church and they asked the pastor, "Would you pray for him?" So the pastor put his hand on his shoulder and began to pray that God would heal him. And the kid said later, "I felt an electric shock go from my shoulder down to my stomach and he was instantly healed of gastroparesis." There is no case in any medical journal that I could find of anybody ever being healed of gastroparesis. They did surgery, they took out the tubes, he's been fine ever since. Oh wow. And that's again p multiple medical researchers looked into that, published it in a peer-reviewed medical journal as a case study. So something's going on.
If I can mention one other one that's really compelling. Um there was a a a woman who's a professor at a major secular university, Indiana University, PhD from Harvard, and she heard about miracles taking place in Mosamb beek. We often see miracles clustering in places where the gospel is just breaking in. So she said, "I'm going to investigate. I'm going to check it out." So she sent a team of researchers to Mosamb beek. They went into the remote villages. They said, "Bring us all your deaf and blind." So they brought all the people deaf, blind, or with severe hearing or vision problems. They brought them. First thing they did is they tested them scientifically. What is your level of vision? What is your level of hearing? They got that established. Then they were immediately prayed for in the name of Jesus by people who tend to have a track record of God using them that way. And then immediately after that they were tested again. Is there any difference? Is there any improvement? Guess what they found? Virtually everybody improved often to extraordinary degrees. There was one woman named Martine. When they first encountered her, she could not hear the equivalent of a jackhammer next to her. After 10 minutes of prayer in the name of Jesus, she could now hear normal conversations. Wow. Um the get this the average improvement in visual acuity was tfold. So they're astounded. So they say we got to see if we can replicate this. So they went to another place where the gospel was taken in Brazil. They did the same test. They got the same results. Wow. One one um woman in in Brazil could not see someone holding up three fingers from 9 ft away after prayer in the name of Jesus. She could read the name tag of the person praying for her. Wow. But get this. This is a scientifically rigorous study that was accepted for publication in a secular scientific peer-reviewed medical journal, highly respected journal, the Southern Medical Journal. And in my book, Seeing the Supernatural, I interview the people involved with that. And I interviewed the scholar who did it. And she she said something's going on. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's something supernatural.
It's amazing. You know, this is something I follow, too. And I have a friend of ours, Heidi Baker, and she's in Mosambique. He was involved with the Mosamb beek study. Okay. Yeah. And and she's amazing and we've followed her stories and read her books and and talked to her over the years and she just has, you know, this this incredible faith and one one of the things I I remember having a conversation with a missionary once and I said it seems like less of that happens over here. Less of that happens in the western world. And they said, you know, a lot of that has to do with sort of the uh faith. I mean, we've sort of been taught via our science, you know, our our scientific mind to rationalize everything. And if you're living in a state of, well, this isn't normal or this isn't rational, in a way, it might block or interfere with that that healing. Is that something that you've come across?
Yeah. I mean, in in many of these more primitive societies, um, first of all, they they may not be able to read, and so to read the Bible, they can't do that really. and and and they but they do respond to supernatural or miraculous kind of uh developments. When they see something like that, they recognize it. And I think God uses that as a way to open them up to who he is, that he's real and he's still active. Yeah.
You know, one of the things that I I've shared a few times on the show is is that, you know, in the Bible, Jesus never says in order to be healed, eat this food, right? Take this medication, get this surgery. He says, "Your faith or your belief has healed you." Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
I mean, and what astonishes me about that research that's been done and these case studies that have been published um and I interview for my book um a guy named Dr. Craig Keenir, who's probably the world's leading expert on miracles. He's written two huge volumes, case study after case study after case study. And what's what's important about this is two things. First of all, it tells us God is still active. He's still in the miracle field today. But the second thing it does, it gives us confidence that we can trust the gospels. Yeah. Because when I was a skeptic, I would read the go read a gospel and say, I can't believe this. It says Jesus healed a guy of blindness. That doesn't happen. That's not possible. But when you see contemporary documented cases of healings, that gives me confidence. Maybe if it happens today, it could have happened in the first century. Maybe this is true. So I it validates the gospels and I think that's a can be at least it was in my case part of the process of coming to faith. Yeah.
You know one of the things I've seen um over the years is a continual growing hunger especially in younger generations for for the supernatural and understanding things that are spiritual. think about my, you know, when I when I was younger in church and I think about the churches I went to, it was a little bit more I to say, you know, buttoned up and proper and, you know, there was like a more guard rails and things like that. And and I think with that sometimes comes, oh, well, that feels like it's outside the box and that shouldn't be out there. And and and I think the younger generation isn't that, you know, there's a little bit more we want it outside of the box. We want to we want to experience these things. And so I think that's led people to be more sometimes spiritually hungry in the in the supernatural sense.
I think you're absolutely right. Um one of the phenomenon we see in America particularly is that in many Christians they're embarrassed by the supernatural. Why? Because we want to be respectable. Yeah. We want our neighbors to respect us. Yes. Yes. I'm a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I go to church. But I don't get into that weird stuff like miracles and angels and demons and that I'm not into that. I'm not one of those weird ones. There's almost a respectability that we're after. And it closes us off to the miraculous. I mean, I I've been a Christian since November the 8th of 1981. And I've never heard in my life a sermon on the topic, for instance, of angels. I've just never heard one. Yeah. Um Yeah. I mean, why is that? I think some churches are a little angels that's getting out there. But yeah, you know what? Jesus was an exorcist. Jesus believed in demons and Satan. Jesus believed in angels. Um and so if we are followers of his, we ought to take seriously some of these things that he believed.
Sometimes people go a little bit too far in one direction because they they they want it to happen so badly. So, so I remember uh just to give you an example like growing up my my um my my grandparents would watch a lot a number of people Jimmy Swagger which wasn't necessarily that but you know Benny Hen and others and I think there's an element of maybe at some point in their life and sometimes there's authentically a miracle happening but sometimes there's an element of okay that seems manufactured or that seems like we're trying too hard and I think that maybe for some of those people a number of people, they're put off by that. So maybe that's harming some of the openness people have.
I totally agree. I think there are cases that we think may be miracles, but honestly um some some diseases, as you know, as a physician, um um you have spontaneous remission. Yeah, it just happens. Um we have cases of fraud where people claim to have heal someone just for the notoriety of it. Um, you know, we have cases of mistaken identity. I had one recently in my own life where um a doctor examined me and said, "Oh, you've got um I've had skin cancer before." He said, "You got new skin cancer at two places. Let's schedule the surgery. We'll do biopsies." So, he did the biopsies and then the biopsies come back and oops, no cancer. Um, was I healed? I don't think so. I think the initial diagnosis was just he's just looking at it. He was probably wrong. So, I don't consider that to be a miracle. I thank God for it. Yeah. Because he superintends everything. So, I'm thankful for it. But I I I think we have to be careful. I think you're right. We have to be careful of what we classify as a miracle so that we don't um uh give any fodder to skeptics who will say that's not a miracle. Here's three ways it could have happened without the intervention of God. Exactly.
You know, and again, I believe in miracles. It's just a I've seen sometimes people try even lie in order to thinking maybe it's a sort of like like they're doing a good that's really not a good.
You're exactly right and we have to be careful of that and we have to measure it against scripture. You know the Bible says test the spirits. Yeah. And we have to measure everything against scripture to determine whether or not it's trustworthy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You. You know, one of the other things I think about too when when it comes to um the miraculous, as you mentioned, is uh angels and demons are are our reference in the Bible. Yes. I'm curious your thoughts on this. And I was actually my my wife and I are both uh we love talking theology and it's it's so funny. We we're and I don't know if any other couples can uh can relate to this. The way we go like we both want the same thing. Yeah. But the way we think about it and going about getting there is completely different. I can relate. Okay. Okay. Because cuz my my my wife grew up going to a a charismatic church. I grew up going to a you know I went to a Baptist and Meth non-denomination mostly. And so there there was you know there there's a um some differences there. But we both want the same thing. And I bring that all up to say as we were talking recently about um guardian angels. Yes. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because I've heard some people reference that everyone Yeah. has a guardian angel. Yeah. There this is there's division within the Christian community on whether that's true, whether we each have a guardian angel. The ones who believe that we do and there are many who do believe that we do have a guardian angel point to two references in scripture. One is a reference in Matthew where Jesus uh tells some people referencing some children. He said, um, do not disregard these children because their angels see the face of God every day in heaven. Well, who are their angels? Could be guardian angel. Second example is in the book of Acts where Peter escapes prison and he goes to a house where some Christians had gathered and he knocks on the door and the servant said, "Who's there?" And he says, "It's Peter." So she calls out to the group, "Hey, Peter's here." And they said, "That's not possible. He's in prison. it it must be his angel. So, some will look at those two passages and say that seems to suggest that we have an angel who is kind of a sign to us. Could very well be. And there's lots, as I say, lots of theologians and Christians who believe in that. Others say that's not strong enough evidence to convince me. Um, interestingly, in the uh Orthodox church, uh they believe that every Christian when they're baptized is assigned a guardian angel at baptism. So that's interesting. Wow. Um, so there's no shortage of angels. God could certainly have a guardian angel. In Revelation in chapter 5, Jesus is on the throne, the post-resurrected Jesus. And it says, if you do the math, there were 100 million angels worshiping him at that point. 100 million. Wow. That's a lot of angels. Yeah. So God created them. Um, there's a there's definitely a a um, a number of them. They're not infinite number of them. there's a certain number of them, but it is a large number. So, I don't think we can say, "Oh, there's not enough angels to go around." I think it is definitely possible that we have a guardian angel. It's interesting.
You know, I never studied angels particularly. As I said, I and when I Well, to your point, it's it's it's rarely ever talked in the church outside of oh, Gabriel showed up or Michael showed up once or twice. That's it. But it's so fascinating. And so I interviewed an expert on angels, a doctor, a guy to seminary, and he he really lays out what angels are and where they come from and so forth. And um one of the interesting things is do angels still protect? Do we still have encounters with angels today? Because in the book of Hebrews, it says that sometimes Christians unwittingly provide hospitality to angels. They don't realize it. So that tells me there's an anticipation in scripture that perhaps we will have an angelic encounter. And in my book, the Seeing the Supernatural, I have a chapter on angels, and I talk about some documented cases like that. For instance, there was a missionary from Scotland named John G. Payton, P A T- O N. He and his wife were uh sent to a remote island in the South Pacific to share Jesus. Lived in a little cottage there, and they were sharing the gospel. Well, the tribe people didn't like it. And they, a mob of them came one night to kill him, to burn down their house and kill him. So, they're in their house. They see this mob forming to come after him. What could they do? They pray. They prayed, "God, save us. Protect us. This mob is out to kill us." And they prayed all night. And by dawn, the mob dissipated. And everybody went home. So, a year later, John led the head of that tribe to faith in Jesus. And they had a conversation. He said, "By the way, do you remember that night when y'all came to burn down our house and kill us? Why didn't you do it?" And the guy said, "Oh, well, who were all those men you had there?" And John said, "There were no men. It was just my wife and I." He said, "No, no, no. Your house was surrounded by all these muscular men in white garments with drawn swords. There's no way we could have hurt you that night." This reminds you of Mesh, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. You know, they're they're in the fire. there's another person with or or Daniel, you know, who's keeping the the lion's mouth shut. Exactly. And and so because that happened in in ancient biblical times, why couldn't it happen today? I have another case study in my book about a pastor in Ohio who uh had a car accident and his car hit a utility pole and the electric wires fell down onto the car. In fact, the car was electrified was so hot the windshield was melting and the car was jammed shut. the the the door was jammed shut. So, he's in this car. He's okay. I mean, he's injured, but he's he's he's okay. What can he do? And he's praying, "Help." You know, and a man shows up. He said it was kind of scruffy looking. And he came over and he opened the car door and he reached in and he pulled out the pastor and carried him about 50 feet away. And then the car blew up and the man said to the pastor, "Um, you're going to be okay. The police are on their way. I can't be here when they get here, but you're going to be okay." And he walked away and disappeared. And that pastor said, and I and I quote some of the people involved in that, the paramedics and the the TV people who covered the case, and they say, "We can't explain this." Um, how was he able to open the car door? It it was electrified and it was jammed shut. And who is this guy? And and the pastor said, "I believe he was an angel." Wow. And he might have been I'll tell you a funny story. I was interviewing a very prominent theologian and um you know how they can be. They're kind of stayed and you know and he's a university professor and all this stuff. And we got talking about angels and miracles. And he said, um, when I was younger, I went to a charismatic church and there was a anticipation of the supernatural. There was a sense that God is still in the miracle business that that miraculous things could happen at any time. And I loved that he said and he said one day there was a family in our car in um in our church who was driving in their car. This is before seat belts. and um their son, little kid in the back seat opened the back door and fell out at highway speeds and they thought, "Oh my gosh, our kid's been killed." So they turned around, they went back and here their son is just standing there in the middle of the highway. And they said, "What happened?" And he said, "Oh, didn't you see the man who caught me?" And this theologian reached into his pocket and picked out a handkerchief and dabbed his eye and he said, "I miss that. I miss that. I'm not part of a church like that anymore. And I miss that sense that God at any time could do something miraculous." Wow.
It's so powerful. You know, one of the uh there there's a quote I love and it's uh you can see nothing is a miracle or everything is a miracle. And and and I do think there's this sense of uh man, it's just so important because it impacts our lives so much. Like like when I I had a this was about three years ago. I had a spinal infection that left me unable to walk for a full year. I read about that. Yeah. For how long? Four years. No, a year. A year. A year. Yeah. I was in in bed four months or 10 months. couldn't walk 10 months and then two two plus months on a walker and and I I didn't know what would happen and I I I prayed constantly by the way I had Heidi Baker calling and praying for me you know John and Lisa Navier Daily all kinds of amazing people praying for me and there's a few times I remember when I was at my absolute lowest and this happened three times and all three times when I just felt the most despair and all three times I looked up wherever I was and I saw a rainbow and I remember one time I was in the I was in an ambulance and actually in or this van and there was a little like hole like at the top or a little like kind of like light you could see through uh like a window and looking up and and there was a rainbow and for me I really felt like it was God said listen I'm you know I'm faithful like I'm faithful and uh and for me I could have said that saw that as oh there's a random rainbow but for me it was no God is speaking me right now you know and so I think people can go through life either Everything is a miracle. Nothing is a miracle. God is speaking to me. I'm looking for signs. I'm looking for wonder. I'm going to live a life of faith and belief. Yeah.
And to me, here here's the thing. Uh I've I've asked people this before. When I have uh because when I take care of patients, I can tell pretty early on if somebody's a pessimist or an optimist or their faith level. And one of the things I ask them is, do you think that you believing for a supernatural healing or for that God is with you or or that you're going to be well, do you think that gives you a better chance of healing or a worse chance of healing? And the reality is, we know this from the placebo effect, all the studies that you're much better off believing whether it's true or not. Now, I believe it is, but you know, and so I mean, yeah. Yeah.
You know, it's I did this study. I commissioned a national study. Um, so it's a scientifically accurate study in which I asked a cross-section of American adults if you could um or no, here was the question. Have you ever had at least one experience in your life that you could only describe as being a miracle of God? 38% said yes. Now, let's let's say 99% of them are wrong. Yeah. Let's say they think it's a miracle. It wasn't really. it was an extraordinary coincidence or whatever. So, let's get rid of 99% of them. That would still leave a million miracles just in the United States. That's pretty amazing. God is still in the miracle business today. Yeah. Wow.
It's powerful. You know, we've talked about angels a little bit. Yeah. Let's talk about demons. Yeah. So, I uh you know, one of the things that I uh have wondered or thought about is when you go back even I mean really outside of the modern era. Yeah. Um way way more people believed in the spiritual realm. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it goes down through history. I have virtually every culture. Yeah. And when you look at even even there's now it's what's interesting is there's a there's a Bible verse where somebody was asking there's a uh and I forget if it's a rabbi and and Jesus is part of the conversation. They're saying, "What did he do wrong in order to have this illness?" Right? And Jesus said he didn't do anything wrong. This is so God's name could be, you know, could be glorified. And so it's not always the case, but but historically if somebody was ill with a number of conditions, often times there was a demonic influence over that person. And I know that I've actually seen where people have had something and again I would call it a spirit. Somebody else could say it's a negative emotion that's basically infiltrated that person and destroyed their life or destroyed an organ system. There are different emotions we know scientifically that make organs sick. For instance, if somebody lives in a state of fear for a long time, their adrenals produce all of this cortisol, all of this stress hormones, and they get adrenal burnout. It affects reproductive orans. So, they literally build up disease and sickness in their organ when they have fear. Somebody could call a spirit of fear that's that's on them in that way. Now I think scientifically people sort of say well that's a neurochemical c whatever but what what's your view on that?
Well I I think it could very well be that these kind of things we call a spirit of fear or spirit of anxiety or so forth could be something that is being fueled by demons. Um and certainly it would be Satan's desire to damage your health to discourage you to uh cause you to question whether God cares for you and so forth. So he's in the he's in the pain business. Yeah. And so u would he fuel something like that? Yeah, I think he would. Now um we I think two mistakes are made. Uh one is to deny that the demonic realm is real. The other one is to see a demon uh under every bush, you know. Oh yeah. But um but it is it is a real phenomenon. In my book, I talk about a psychiatrist um from New York who is highly respected. Richard Gallagher is his name. Um he um I have a quote from the former president of the American Psychiatric Association saying Richard Gallagher educated at a Ivy League school, professor at some major quality universities. Um he highest integrity, highest professionalism. This guy's knows what he's doing. So very highly respected psychiatrist, which means he's a medical doctor as well as someone trained in psychology. 25 years ago, he and his wife had two cats and they got along great. They were best buddies. They slept together, you know, they loved each other until one night the cats began to try to kill each other. It was it was an incredible scene. They they're snarling each other. They're clawing each other. They're biting each other. They're hissing each other. They're attacking each other. Literally trying to kill each other. And and Richard and his wife had to separate them and put them into different rooms. And they thought, "What in the world's going on?" At 9:00 a.m. the doorbell rings and it's a preset appointment from a Catholic priest. He was bringing by a woman to be examined psychiatrically by Dr. Gallagher. It was a woman who claimed that she was a high priestess of a satanic cult. Doorbell rings. He Richard opens the door. This high priestess of a satanic cult looks up at him with a sneer and says, "So, how'd you like those cats last night?" Wow. And Richard Galler has spent now 25 years involved with investigating the de the demonic um involved with exorcisms and so forth. Um he's a highly credible physician and uh psychiatrist and he's documented cases where petite women who are possessed by a demon have picked up a 217lb Lutheran deacon and throw him across throw him across the room. Uh he has one case with eight eyewitnesses as someone who levitated off a bed for 30 minutes. He has cases where people speak spontaneously in Latin, a language they don't know. Um u he has cases of spontaneous bruising and claw marks on people. I mean this is this is real and we have to acknowledge that and that that there is a satanic realm that is out to harm us. Now the good news is the Bible says to Christians, if you tell Satan to flee, he will flee. Yeah. Then say might says he will. So we shouldn't be that afraid of that realm before Christians because um demons cannot possess a true Christian because a true Christian is is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and it can't both be indwelled by negative and positive at the same time. So but they can hector us. They can go after us. They can try to discourage us. They can have these spirits of fear and so forth that are try to hurt us. And we have to acknowledge that and be aware of that because if we don't, we're not prepared. And the Bible says in Ephesians 6, put on the full armor of God. You know, protect yourself. And we have to take that seriously. Yeah.
There's a story I like that's about Charles Spurgeon, you know, the famous uh pastor, and it said one one night he he he he was awoken because somebody was sitting at the end of his bed, and it was the devil, and he looked up and he just said, "Oh, it's only you. We're about to bed." Oh, I love that. Yeah. And uh and it's just such a great story because you know if if your mindset is right, it's not something you have to fear. To your point, if you have the Holy Spirit, if you have Jesus, it's just immediately immediately gone. And the scriptur is clear about that.
You know, I I I think back about um when I've had certain people, you know, almost everybody that I take care of, part of their condition that they're suffering from, one contributing factor is negative emotions, childhood trauma, those sort of issues. And and I'm even thinking about I'm just going to use a family member for example. I have a grandmother. She's 96 years old right now, but she has had um numerous times in her life where I really felt like there was sort of like this sort of, you know, demonic uh possession of her. And and have you have you ever seen uh the movie Lord of the Rings? Yeah. And there's there's that time where uh Frodo is back um and meets Bilbo again in Rivendale and he's like, "Can I see The Ring one more time?" time and all a sudden I remember watching the movie I was like their opening night because I was such a big talking in Lord of the Rings and then all a sudden he goes like I mean remember he like reaches for the ring but and there's a sort of and he has something come over him like this gray snarl and and I think a lot of us have probably experienced that in some time in our life where somebody snapped at us and had a really negative reaction and my I I was bringing that up because she would do that often times and we really felt like that was a a demon that was that was a you know a this this spirit of some sort of spiritual thing that was causing that and feeding off of some sort of fear or negative thing that happened even in childhood. But I think most people again today we have just so so separated be you know we've scienced out kind of everything but just because your cortisol is going up why is it going up? Something is causing it to that's probably your spirit or soul or something that is unseen. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, this is very real stuff. I was doing a national radio show a couple weeks ago and on the Moody Radio Network and um a guy Chris Fabry was he was in Phoenix and I'm in uh Houston and um the studios in Chicago and a woman calls in from Florida, very rational woman, very nice woman and she said, "Yeah, she said, "I made a mistake when I was a young Christian. I didn't realize you shouldn't try to contact the dead. And so I tried to contact my great greatgrandfather who had died. And I realized now Bible says don't do that. And she said it was interesting when I tried to do it. It's almost like there was static in the line. And and there was almost a demonic presence. And as soon as she said that, I heard a growl like a I can't hardly describe it. It's grow like a guttural. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, this is live radio. I'm gonna ignore that. So, we finished the show and I called the host and I said, "Did you hear that? Did when as soon as she said the word demonic, I hear this guttural growl?" He said, "Yeah, I heard it. We called her back. Wasn't her, wasn't the studio, wasn't you, wasn't me. I don't know what it was." Wow. I actually have it on tape. Wow. Yeah. And um uh h what was that? Except perhaps a demon trying to sneak in and say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we are real. We are, you know, um I don't know. I don't I'm just saying it was a weird experience." Yeah.
You know, I I I uh I want to ask you about um people on their deathbed. Yeah. Before I do that, I have one other question. So, I grew up in home that was very Christian. my mom, you know, every morning was watching Joyce Meyer and Charles Charles Stanley and you know, and um and so um and and this used to drive me a little crazy cuz I don't know why, but my mom my mom was the mom that was like and now I appreciate it, but when I was like in high school, uh my mom would be like she always she was the mom that prays for a parking spot, you know, all the time. I'm like, "Mom, like can you like pray for something more important in life?" She's like, "God cares about every little thing." Now I'm like I I appreciate it cuz she was such an amazing prayerful mom. But but I I do think but my mom was also like everything is the devil, right? Like like to a degree and now I've studied a lot of Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, Greek medicine, bib and biblical medicine too. And one thing that I realized is a lot of these forms of medicine, it's just a different language. show. A lot of times people are intimidated by terms like yin and yang andqi and that's just chi is just ATP and cellular energy and yin and yang is the feminine and the masculine. It's what they talked about in Genesis, the night and day and the man and woman and so so but again it was sort of again that extreme of everything is. However, I would love to hear your thoughts on uh tarot cards. Yeah. Ouija boards. I I believe again I want to share mine but I'd love to hear yours too. I believe that certain things like if I have a rock on the shelf or a crystal for for me that that would be I mean Chelsea and I in one of our homes we bought we we like things of nature. So if there was a beautiful rock or stone or like a crystal like like we would have that as artwork in our home because we tried to have again a lot of things that are natural because we're we're into natural stuff and uh but there were other things I know that I did something called Neil Anderson had a book called the bondage breaker years ago and I kind of went through like I just wanted to be just cleansed of any wrongdoing I've ever done and just ask for forgiveness from God. So, anything I'd ever done, I don't think I've ever done a Ouija board or anything like that, but there was a number of things I prayed for forgiveness and and just said, "Lord, if I ever gave any demon any foothold, I I want to break that." Yeah. So, I do believe it. But what are your thoughts on some of these things?
And I'm very I believe these things that you mentioned, tarot cards, Ouija boards, um psychics, mediums, things like this, can be doorways to demons. Yeah, they definitely can. And that's why the Bible tells us stay away from medium, stay away from psychics, don't get involved with that stuff. Um, and um, uh, because it's dangerous because it can lead you down a pathway that can open the door to demonic influence in your life. You know, I steer clear of all that stuff. You know, Candace Cameron Bray, she recently came out with a uh, she she was interviewed about something and they asked her and she she said this. She said, "I don't watch horror movies because I believe it's a gateway." Mhm. And I've always felt this. That's interesting. I have never been comfortable. In fact, I can't like I do not watch horror movies because they're too real. Yeah. Or they're too uncomfortable. I mean, there there's something about them like if I I remember one time like in college going to see some horror movie. It was like Friday the or whatever just cuz you know all these college kids were going and I just left there feeling like a sense of just darkness over me and I'm like I'm notable. It is palpable. Yeah. And and I this is probably going to be one of the most controversial parts of this episode because so many people today watch horror movies because they love this sort of the thrill and that feeling of adrenaline. But but but I I believe it's this there there's a darkness there.
Boy, you know, I'll be honest. That's the first time anybody's made that observation to me. And I think you got you're on to something. Um I really do. Um you know these so many of these films and the only way I know about them is you see a commercial. Yeah. And and you know unfortunately they show these commercials during sporting events where you have little kids watching. You know you're watching the Super Bowl, you're watching and here's a horror movie promo and it's like I don't want that for my grandkid. You know what I do know? You know what more than half of the horror movies are about? Demons. Yeah. Yeah. I you know can that be a doorway? I think it could very well be and and especially if it creates curiosity among people to say I want to know more about that in a positive way. In other words, can demons really help me do something that I want to accomplish. Yeah. Um is that you hear people selling their soul uh to the devil um for success in whatever profession they're in. Yeah. Uh making a deal with the devil, so to speak. Uh I I it's interesting. Nobody's ever made that observation before. I think it's a really astute um um comment and I'd like to give it more thought, but I think if I were Satan, would I love that kind of thing out there? Oh, yeah. I think so. Yeah.
One thing about Satan that's interesting, um I have a friend who wrote a book on spiritual warfare, and he said, you know, uh Satan is a fallen angel. Angels are not omniresent. They're not everywhere at once. They're they're a spirit being, but they're in one place at once. And he said, you know what? Chances are Satan has never been in the same zip code as you have been in your whole life. And that's a interesting. Now, of course, demons can be because there's probably millions of demons. Um, but I thought that was an interesting observation. Yeah, that's interesting. Especially when you think, you know, if Satan wanted to do maximum damage, um, is he going to hang out in Chattanooga, Tennessee? I think he's going to go maybe to a place like Hollywood. Yeah. and say, "If I can if I can dig in here, if I can get people laughing at fun movies that are subterraneanly teaching about premarital sex
in a positive way or other sinful activity and presenting it in an entertaining way and people get sucked into it, when we laugh, we're more open to new ideas." Don't you think Satan, if he's only in one place at one time, I think he's gonna spend a lot of time in a place like Hollywood. Yeah. And try to influence an entire culture. Influencers. Influencers. People that have have power and influence. Exactly.
Well, and it's so interesting to think about because when you look at I think people that tend to do some of the most evil in the world often there's no doubt that when you look at an area like Hollywood, the most powerful wealthy people, there's more depravity there. I mean, it's just the reality. Yeah, I think that's true. And you know, if I were Satan, I'd be spend time there. I'd spend time in Washington DC. Yeah, there are certain places I'd be hanging out quite a bit, but he's also got his his demons. And you know, some interpretations say about a third of the angels fell uh when Satan fell. His name was Lucifer at the time. Um, and if that's true, we're talking a lot of demons in the world. And may Hector or come after any given person at any given time. The biggest protection we have really the only protection we have is to come in fa to faith in Jesus. Yeah. That sort of sort of immunizes us against the ultimate that a demon can do which is to possess you to um they as a spirit they crave physicality and they they want to possess someone and uh we're immune from that if we're believers.
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So, so there's a scene in the chosen, you know, where and I think it's one of the first two episodes. I think it's the first episode, the very end of the first episode where where where Jesus helps exercise the demon from Mary and it's so powerful and that's the evidence to Nicodemus and some of the other you know in terms of his uh you know who he is and his presence and I I love that. Yeah. I I it's it's interesting and as a a doctor you know this that a lot of people will say oh you know in ancient times they couldn't distinguish between an illness or a psychiatric condition or a demon and so can we really give credibility to this but you know it's interesting so many times in scripture it says Jesus went about healing the sick and casting out the demons so they saw the difference yeah they he was doing both he was healing the sick they knew who was sick and he uh um casting out the demons of those who were possessed. So they understood the difference. They did. Absolutely.
Uh one of the things I know that you've written about is people on their deathbeds tending to have more of those uh supernatural visions and experiences. Tell me more about this. This is an emerging area. Uh tens of thousands of these cases have been studied. It is incredibly common. Um one team of researchers went to a huge hospice facility in New York State and they said to the dying people there, "If you have a vision unlike anything you've ever had, would you please tell us?" Because so many people are reluctant to say anything. They don't want you think I'm nuts, you know, or on too much medication. What they don't want to say anything. So, they gave them permission and actually asked them, "Would you tell us 88% of them had a pre-death vision?" Wow. 88%. And I bet the other 12 may have had one but died before they were able to tell anybody. These are incredibly common. One team of researchers studied 30 uh 3,000 of these cases and their conclusion was these are not hallucinations. They're not the product of an overactive imagination. They're not uh drug induced. This is a a different kind of phenomenon. And the commonality of them, the fact that they're so common tells me that there's something to this. In other words, if if they only happened in a blue moon once, you know, hardly ever, a skeptic would say, "Well, you know, hundreds of millions of people die every once in a while, you're going to have an anomaly, so it doesn't mean anything." No, we're seeing I I was having dinner with my wife and um five other people in um Oklahoma City recently and we brought up this topic and of the people, seven people today, four of them had family members who had pre-death visions. It's incredibly common.
Now, here's the corroboration. I'm a journalist trained in law. I'm always looking for corroboration. How do I know this? So here's the corroboration in in many of these documented cases. People who are on their deathbeds right before that. And by the way, I'll add one thing real quick. This is biblical. In in the book of Acts, Stephen, who's described as being full of the Holy Spirit, is just about to die. He's about to be stoned to death. He sees the heavens open up and sees the father and son together. So there's a biblical precedent for this. But the reason the corroboration we have is that in many cases people on their deathbeds will get a vision of the heaven to come and they will see someone who they didn't know had already died. So for an example, a very well-researched case of a woman named Doris. Doris was dying and she sees the heavens open up. She sees angelic angelic beings in heaven. She sees her father who had died several years earlier almost welcoming her. And then she gets this puzzled look on her face and she said, "Wait a minute. Why is Vita with my father? What? Why? Why would Vita be there? It makes no sense. Why? Why would Vita be there?" And then she died. Vita was her sister. She had died a couple of weeks earlier, but nobody had told Doris because she was sick and they didn't want the shock to kill her. So, nobody told Doris, but when she's on her deathbed, she saw Doris. She saw Vita in the world to come. That to me is a form of corroboration. Yeah.
Um, it's funny because I told my wife. I I do this research and, you know, I tell her about things I'm learning. She said, "Lee, don't you remember what happened to my dad?" I I forgotten her dad died. Golly, going back maybe 2000 um early probably 15 years ago or so. And he was on his deathbed. He was in hospice and she went to visit him and she comes in and he's all agitated. He says, "Where's Marge? Where's Marge?" And she said, "Dad, what do you mean where's Marge? Where where's Marge? She was just here. She was telling me about heaven. Where's Marge? Why where did she go?" Well, Marge was his sister. She had died two days earlier. Nobody had told him yet that she had died. Wow. And yet he had was having a conversation with her. Wow. So that's one form of corroboration. And there's one other form that's very interesting. Yeah. In Luke chapter 16, Jesus tells a story about a rich man who ignored the poor during his life and he died and he went to torment. Yeah. And a beggar who died the same time and went to a place of bliss. But in verse 16, Jesus said, "Angels carried the beggar to the place of bliss, the bosom of Abraham." And what's very interesting is people who are about to die often one of the most common things is they see angels coming for them. Um uh for example Charles Templeton who was the most famous atheist in Canada, former pulpit partner Billy Graham lost his faith at a liberal seminary. Billy Graham's best friend um wrote an ugly book called Farewell to God, my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith. Um we became friends. Um, I actually wrote a book called um, The Case for Faith, responding to all his objections to Christianity. I interviewed him and got to know him and um, he died a few years later. And before he died, we have reason to believe he came back to faith in Jesus. But then later on his deathbed, he calls out to his wife, Meline. Meline, what? What, Chuck? Can you see them? They're here. They're in this room. Chuck, what are you talking about? The angels, they're they're coming. Can you see? Oh, the their singing is so beautiful. Their eyes are so beautiful. They're coming for me. I'm going to heaven. I'm going to be with the father. And and he died. Um that is such a common occurrence. And one of the corroborations of that comes with children who die. A little child five, six years old, their image of an angel is kind of a feathery creature with big wings, right? I mean, and so if a child was going to through their imagination imagine angels coming for them, they would probably look like that. They have big wings, right? That's not what they see. And so I was looking at doctoral dissertation about a case of a little girl who was dying. And she said to her mother, "Mother, mommy, mommy, can you see them? They're the angels. They're coming for me. They're here. Oh, they're so beautiful. Oh, listen to their singing. Oh, they're so wonderful." And her mother didn't want to disappoint her. So she said, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see them. I see them. Um, look at their big wings." And the little girl said, "Oh, Mommy, they don't have big wings." And she said, "You don't have to lie." And she went on to describe them in vivid detail. Um, I think if that were a product of her imagination, she would picture a cartoon character of an angel. That's not what she saw. An angel. The Bible doesn't say all angels have wings. And um this is very common among children who are dying. Wow. So um yeah, the the the pre-death vision is is a real kind of a newer area of study.
Well, it makes I mean you're you're you're sitting on that brink on that edge of of life and death and the next, you know, what's what's next and and the supernatural, you know, and you know, I I actually experienced something. So I had two grandparent well I've had four grandparents, but I had two in particular dying and I really got to experience some of this. And one of them when they were dying and I don't know if they were believer we kind of doubt they were. And when they were their last few days before they totally passed he kept saying I see fire burning. I'm so hot like constantly. And I had another one and I had a grandfather who lived to be 96. He was like a World War II veteran in the Navy. An amazing Christian man. I mean he was like every week volunteered to like go to the hospital, bring somebody their favorite meal, pray for them. So I got to go with my it was probably the one of the most meaningful things I got to do is go to these hospitals with him while he prayed for people and he just ministered to people all day long and and and his was almost the exact opposite. It's beautiful. It's all the light. It's so bright. I mean just it was like this sort of night and day last few days on their on their deathbed. And and that's what we find. We a certain percentage are people scared to death on their deathbed. They're they're frightened. They're terrified. Um, that's not that unusual. I I was just talking to Michael Nolles. You know, Michael Yeah. Yeah. He's great. And and uh Michael said he had a grandparent and just before she died, she was reaching up like this. Yeah. And I said, "That is so common that they will reach up as if they're touching God and and and and entering into another realm." And uh I think that's a wonderful gesture that uh that people on their deathbeds often have. Oh, yeah. I love it. Yeah, I love it.
You know, I think I think one of the things that's so powerful about your book, Seeing the Supernatural, is I think it helps us better tap into being able to see better, right? The supernatural. Cuz I think if you're if you're going through your day believing that this is it and this is it. This, you know, matter is all there is. And then after that's it, you live one type of life. That's right. You know, there there's a quote by CS Lewis and he basically says the people that do the most in this life are the people that think most about the next life. Yeah. And I think there's that's seeing the supernatural, you know, it's seeing, you know, and if Jesus says, you know, don't store up for yourself treasures here on earth, you know, store up treasures in heaven. I think I think that mindset that you are sharing with people of the supernatural mindset impacts our lives so much more than we think. Think the thing that I think about with this is not just hey this is you know good for I don't know it just it's entertaining to me it's much more no this impacts your physical health it impacts your forever your entire future it impacts your family it impacts every moment of every day if you are walking with this sort of sense of the supernatural and eternal eternal heart and mindset so I love so much what you're you know what you're doing tell us a little bit more about seeing the supernatural um your new book.
Yeah. I mean, um, I look at things like near-death experiences, deathbed visions, um, documented miracles, uh, personal experiences with God that are supernatural. Um, um, what else? Lots of different areas. Oh, the mystical dreams that are happening among Muslims in you know, yeah, I was I was I was reading up on it's like a lot of Muslims are seeing Jesus in their dreams. It's been estimated as many as a third of Muslims who become Christians have had a Jesus dream. Wow. And how this happened? And again, I'm after corroboration because so I want to know, could this just be something in their subconscious? It's a dream after all. So, and no, it's not. How do we know? Well, first of all, a devout Muslim has no incentive to have a dream about God and Jesus Christ especially in a way that could lead them into apostasy, maybe a death sentence in some cultures. So, they don't have an incentive to do this. But what happens in these things is they don't go to sleep, have a dream about Jesus, and wake up as a Christian. The dreams point them towards something external that corroborates this experience. So, I'll give you an example. There's a woman named No. She had eight children. It's a Muslim, Cairo. She has a Jesus dream. Jesus is walking with her along a lake shore. She is mesmerized by Jesus. She said, "Here he is. He's a man and I don't feel shame that I'm in his presence for the first time in my life. I feel love. I feel grace. I feel kindness and goodness." And she's enthralled by Jesus. And she says, "Jesus, why do you appear to me? I'm just a poor mother of eight children. Why do you appear to me?" And Jesus said, "My friend will explain to you why tomorrow." And she said, "Who's your friend?" And Jesus points to a guy she didn't realize was walking with them along the lake shore. She was so mesmerized by Jesus. There was a guy walking with them. He said, "My friend will tell you." She wakes up. The next day, she goes to crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday, chaotic, and she saves that man from her dreams. And she goes up to, "You're the one. You're" He says, "Whoa, what are you talking about? You're same eye, same glasses, same face, same clothes. You're the one. He said, "Wait a minute. Did you have a dream about Jesus last night?" Yes. Turned out he was an underground church planter. Oh, wow. He wasn't going to go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday afternoon because it's so chaotic, but he felt like God had a mission for him. So, he came that day. He took her aside, opened the Bible, and shared the gospel. That's how these things work. That's corroboration. is not just something happened inside somebody's head. There's an external event that validates it. And that's these things are so common that you can pick up the newspaper sometimes in Cairo and there'll be an ad and the ad says, "Call this number and we'll tell you about the man in white you met in your dream last night." Yeah. That's how common it is. It's so powerful. And I interviewed the world's leading expert on that in my book, Seeing the Supernatural. And he said, "Lee, I could pick up the phone right now. I could call Kuwait. I could call Saudi Arabia. I could call Iran. I'll give you five more stories. This is breaking out all over the Middle East. That's amazing. It's amazing.
Well, thanks so much, Lee, for coming on. And I just want to encourage everybody to check out his new book, Seeing the Supernatural. It's in bookstores nationwide, Amazon.com. And I just want to encourage everybody to uh walk with that sense of the supernatural. Walk with that sense of there's an eternity because it will impact your life for the good in such a powerful way. And uh and Lee again, it's just been an honor having you on today. And and and we'd love to hear from you on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, let us know. Have you ever had a supernatural experience? Have you ever known anyone who has? We'd love to hear from you uh as well. And just want to say thank you to all of you that are subscribed to the podcast. It's one of the greatest things you can do to support the channel and allow me to bring on amazing guests here like Lee. So, thanks for subscribing. Also, there are so many people who are on the borderline of sort of doubting the supernatural. Maybe there are people that are so hungry for the spiritual today that this might be a great inspiration to them. So, thanks so much for sharing this as well and I'll see you next time on the Dr. Josh A show.