Transcription
Openings have fallen a ton, but the problem is that no one's getting hired, right? Like people aren't really getting hired. Like hires are are are down to levels that we haven't really seen since like 2016.
You have to remember that a lot of times like when when gold gets into these like bull markets, they can last for a long time. You know, far longer than I think anyone in crypto for the most part has the attention span for. Have to have your baseline stuff because you don't want to end up being the schmuck who somehow managed to not have any return despite the fact that the market went up three years in a row. And there's people that are in that boat and we've all been there before. Like I've been there before, too.
I think Bitcoin isn't going anywhere. But I do think that if we are in a bare market right now, which is my base case, and if we're in a bare market for, let's say, like the next 6 to 10 months, you're going to see a lot of altcoins just go to zero.
Okay ladies and gentlemen. So today we have Benjamin Cow on our show for the first time who is the founder of Into the Crypto and today we will look at the US economy, gold, silver, cryptocurrency, portfolio structure in the current environment and many other very interesting topics. So Benjamin, thank you so much for being here.
>> Yeah, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
>> It's a pleasure to have you on, sir. If we could start by looking at the macro picture. So what would be some of the factors that you are looking at in relation to the US economy right now?
>> Yeah, I mean looking at a lot of different things. Uh obviously the unemployment rate is one of them. Uh inflation is another. We clearly know that the Fed wants to uh you know bring inflation back down to their 2% target, but they also don't want to risk you know crashing the economy while they do that. I think right now like one of the let me see if I can share my screen here. So basically we're looking at a at a slowly rising unemployment rate. Uh but the Fed's trying to get ahead of that a little bit by reducing uh interest rates as well. One of the interesting charts that I've looked at before is if you look at like the S&P 500 divided by the unemployment rate squared, uh you you get kind of like an interesting chart. It looks like this where you could argue it it it's kind of similar to prior times where we keep trying to go higher, but we just we we can't until you know the unemployment rate goes high enough to really justify more rate cuts. What I also like to do is if you incorporate the US inflation rate year-over-year um and you incorporate interest rates into this chart, when you look at at a chart like this, you know what you'll notice is that there's this like kind of this like zero line down here and eventually we return to it and it's just a matter of time. And of course, every single time that it happens, it it does of course correspond with a recession in order for us to truly get back down there. So, you could argue that there will be a recession at some point. I mean, I think that's pretty clear. That's just the way the business cycle works. Who knows whether it's going to be in 2026 or 2027 or 2028, right? Like, no one really knows exactly what year it's going to happen. Um, but that's ultimately the way things end. Um, and you're already starting to see a little bit of weakness in sort of the riskier stuff like in the crypto markets. We're already seeing um you know signs of distress over there. But with that said, you're not really going to have layoffs pick up a lot until the S&P 500 really starts to drop, right? And we that's kind of how it always goes. The the stock market leads the economy. So if the stock market were to start dropping aggressively, then it would lead to layoffs. And the issue and then what kind of causes a recession is that the layoffs then lead to less demand in the overall economy and then that of course leads to more layoffs and so you get into this like negative feedback loop. We're not in that negative feedback loop right now, right? Because the stock market is still doing pretty well, right? And you know, I mean, when when the stock market tops and starts going back down, that of course is when the layoffs pick up, but that of course would also correspond to the Fed lowering interest rates and and trying to turn the money printers back on and get things moving again. And then, you know, at that point, maybe crypto can can start performing well again. But that's kind of where we are right now. We're we're in a place where, you know, things are okay uh in the overall economy. They're not like great, but they're also not terrible either. Um, but until something really changes, it's hard. And and by the way, if you look at like layoffs, uh, if you look at layoffs, uh, they're still relatively low. I mean, all things considered. I mean, they're certainly trending up, but they're basically at the pre- pandemic average, right? They're essentially at the pre- pandemic average. If you look at at at job openings, that's kind of the more concerning thing. Like job openings, job hire like hires quits, like job openings have have fallen down a lot. And so when you look at at at what's going on sort of in like the sort of in the labor market, openings have fallen a ton, but the problem is that no one's getting hired, right? Like people aren't really getting hired. like hires are are are down to levels that we haven't really seen since like 2016, you know. So, the problem is as long as layoffs don't pick up, the unemployment rate is still fine. But if layoffs pick up, the issue is that hiring is also down, which would then lead to that parabolic that nonlinear phase of the unemployment rate. Again, I don't think we're there just yet, but it's probably going to happen sometime in the next couple years.
>> Yeah. It definitely feels like we're moving towards that um scenario. If if you look at the recent economic data and everything, there's clear signs of a slowdown and usually stock markets, you know, they react to that. And with the current valuations, it wouldn't be surprising to see relatively violent pullback in the stock market valuations, right? I think you'll probably have a pullback by stocks in early 2026, but it still doesn't mean it's like the big one, you know. Um, a lot of times when you do have uh larger draw downs, it it first, you know, you'll first see the stock market kind of top over 6 to 12 months where we try to go higher and we can't. And then and then you get kind of this like sign of exhaustion where the markets just can't go up anymore. even though they, you know, they've been kind of at the highs for a while. And then you start to get a drop. By the way, you could argue that that exact thing that I just described is already happening over in in Bitcoin, right? Cuz like with Bitcoin, we're at the same price that we were a year ago. So that that kind of starts to show there's some level of exhaustion in the markets. And normally when that happens, you know, the markets go down and they have to find buyers a lot lower. But, you know, you have to remember with with with crypto in general and and the stock market, like the the Fed's not going to do anything to try to keep the crypto markets propped up, right? Like the the Fed will only really respond to a stock market that's cratering. And so, this is actually very similar, in fact, to 2019. And I I've talked about that a lot, how how the the Fed was lowering interest rates back then. They also ended quantitative tightening back then. You can look at the balance sheet of the Federal Reserve and see like, you know, the stock market still did fine after QT ended back then. But if you look at the valuation of Bitcoin against the S&P 500 back then, what you'll notice is that, you know, before QT ended, Bitcoin found a top against the S&P, just like we're seeing the same thing happen this cycle, right? Like you could argue that Bitcoin found this top before QT ended just like Bitcoin found that top before QT ended. Um, and so I I I think we're we're in that phase where like the stuff further out on the risk curve, which is crypto, is starting to to fade against like the S&P. And it makes sense because crypto is more closely tied to liquidity. with with the stock market, there's all these passive flows, you know, through like 401ks and everything that that can keep it moving for for a lot longer. So, I mean, again, like a lot of people want to they think that the stock market or that Bitcoin is lagging the stock market, but you could argue that Bitcoin is leading the stock market by, you know, 6 to 12 months. Um, so that's kind of where I see things right now. I mean, I think there are signs of distress uh in in certain areas. Crypto is certainly taking a huge hit recently, but that also hasn't yet worked its way over to some of the lower risk assets like like stocks,
>> right? Yes. I myself have been using crypto as a liquidity indicator for a while now. Of course, as one of the liquidity [snorts] indicators. Um and so then if if we look at gold, it has been performing really really well from the fundamental perspective. Of course, it's the big players getting involved, the central banks, but I think right now the baton is moving more to the to the retail side. How are you viewing gold in the current environment?
>> Yeah, I mean I I'm generally bullish on metals in general. Um I I think that, you know, there's a lot of times similar to the one we're in now where metals do very very well. um where basically particip market participants are are you know punishing it's sort of like a flight to safety, right? It's like well if if if we can't exercise any type of fiscal responsibility and we're just going to have inflation and money printers and all this stuff. Then people start to buy um you know physical assets, right? like assets that you can't just print, you know, um that you can actually hold on to and and gold is one of those and it's done incredibly well. Um and it probably will continue for a while. I do think that metals are going to have sort of a pullback consolidation phase in 2026. It might not be at the very beginning of 2026. It could take until say like the second quarter, but ultimately I see metals likely doing well uh through the end of this decade. You have to remember that a lot of times like when when gold gets into these like bull markets, they can last for a long time, you know, far longer than I think anyone in crypto for the most part has the attention span for, right? Like I think in crypto people think in in such like short term, but you could argue that just getting bullish on something like gold in 2001 and then you forgot about it for a decade, you know, I mean, it just went up. I mean, yes. And this right here was the financial crisis, but gold quickly recovered to new all-time highs, relatively speaking for gold. Um, so, you know, I I I think that metals are likely going to stay bullish. Silver also looks pretty good. Yeah, I mean, it's really hot right now. Absolutely. It's going to get a pullback, but you know, uranium, palladium, they all look good to me. A lot of these metals um look pretty great. The other thing I would I would want people to look at is actually the S&P's valuation against gold. Because when you look at the S&P's valuation against gold, it actually looks a lot like the 1970s, you know, um where we were kind of bouncing around the same level and then eventually it broke through and then that led into the recession that we had in 1974. Again, I don't know exactly when that's going to happen, but I I think that is kind of like what you're what you're looking at here. And that's why I mean honestly like I I feel like gold is and silver and just metals in general I I feel like they're they they provide like a nice hedge uh against just people allocated to risk assets because like you know I mean since I've been an adult like I was born in 1990 so I turned 18 in 2008 which was really when the last recession was. as if we exclude the pandemic, um, all we've really seen is risk assets go up, right? Like it's all we've really ever seen for the last, you know, 16, 17 years. But there are times where commodities outperform risk assets. And I think we're in one of I think we've been in one of those times for the last year. I think we're going to stay in that regime for at least another year or two. Um, so I mean I think I think commodities, gold, silver, palladium, marine, I think they have a place in a in a portfolio because you know there's always there's always a bull market somewhere even if it's not in crypto.
100% man, you made some really really good points. If you look at [clears throat] gold to silver ratio, would you say that the riskto-reward is slightly better on the silver side? If you look at the current ratio, if you look at the production ratio, which is much, much lower.
>> Yeah. I mean, silver's been outperforming gold ever since April, um, which is when, you know, when we had that big scare in the market. What was interesting back then is how quickly gold recovered to a new all-time high. Um, and it actually recovered a lot quicker. It it recovered back to the highs a lot quicker than most stocks did. So, it shows you that metals are more resilient right now than stocks. Um, I think that in terms of the ratio, I mean, it's for for me it's kind of like Bitcoin and everything else. Like gold is long term, gold is the better investment than silver long term. In the short term though, that's not necessarily true, right? Like in the short term, silver is outperforming gold. Um, I'm not sure how much longer that's going to last for. Uh right now gold for instance is at a lower high while silver is at a higher high compared to where it was a few months ago. So, I mean, I I think in the short term you have to go with the momentum because it's like everyone wants to be a hero calling the top on something like silver, but I think the short term you have to go with the momentum and say, "All right, well, silver's been outperforming gold for a while and it's probably going to continue to outperform it, you know, and and until proven otherwise, right? Like it and I, you know, it's easy to want to be a hero and say that like this is where it changes, but until proven otherwise, I think you have to go with momentum. Long term though, when you're thinking about like decades and decades, gold actually does outperform silver. You know, if you look at the chart, the gold silver ratio, gold has been steadily the ratio has been steadily going up, right? But as it goes up and to the right, it sometimes goes down. And we're kind of in that phase right now where it's it's going down. But when you come back and say 30 years, there's a there's a high probability that that gold that the ratio of gold to silver will be higher than it is today. Even if in the next six months it might be lower,
>> right? Yes. The fundamentals certainly look bright for the next for many many years purely from the money printing perspective from the fear from the uncertainty. Uh gold and silver look very interesting. If we could move [clears throat] slightly more towards Bitcoin then um I have heard people looking at Bitcoin as you know as a bet on demographics other people of course look at that from completely different perspectives. How are you viewing Bitcoin right now when it's very connected to Wall Street and it's quite different from let's say a decade ago
>> in terms of price?
>> Uh in terms of price and in terms of you know people who were interested in it I believe like the the cohort who were in it from the very start and right now would be quite different.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it started off as like uh like something that you know was more of like a niche interest, right? Like computer programmers, cryptographers, you sort of your stereotypical computer science nerd. Um that was kind of what it started off as more based around fundamentals and then to today it's been herald is heralded as something completely different you know like uh today it's all about ETFs and and treasuries you know treasury companies and um a strategic Bitcoin reserve I I think the biggest issue today for crypto is a um is is like a reputation problem or like a um I think a lot of younger people view crypto as as just a scam, you know. Um and I don't really think you can blame them because the people that are graduating now and starting to have investment income, you know, they've probably been rugged so many times at this point trying to buy into different like altcoins and meme coins over the last few years. So, I think crypto kind of has like an identity problem in a sense of like people a lot of younger people right now aren't even as interested in it anymore. And I and I mean I don't I don't blame them to be completely honest. Like I really don't. I think that we've lost our way as an industry. We focused on meme coins. We focused on cash grabs. be focused on lifting people up that are clearly scammers and and clearly just in it for their own self-interest and not actually trying to grow the industry. And so it kind of led to this like massive malinvestment of capital into crypto where like all the projects that were trying to develop something no one cared about. So the developers left uh to probably go work on AI related interests because frankly if you're a developer in 2025 going into 2026 you know where do you think your skills are going to be most valued in crypto or in AI? I mean, objectively, I think most people would say AI offers more more upside because the issue is if you go into crypto, you know, with with the way it's been for the last several years, most people are most people just assume all altcoins are a scam anyways, right? Um, so you first have to fa fight against that uh view, you know, view. Uh, and then if you can get people to view you as not a scam, there's still a lot more liquidity going into other things than into into those projects just because people kind of lost faith in in the idea that anything would ever be developed. It's all been speculation, right? There's been so much speculation about what it could be, but then there's not as much actual solving real world issues. you know, there's some stable coins I think are are great uh you know, I think that's been really great and I I've met a lot of people that honestly are very against crypto in general, but they see the value in stable coins. So like there's been some good things that have come out of it, but I think for the most part a lot of the projects kind of herald themselves as like these big big things, but really a lot of them are just like back office software that we're going to be like scratching our heads in like 10 years wondering why we had like cult like followings around them. um you know like I I I feel like if I went to Google or um Meta or Nvidia or Microsoft and I if I went there and I hired four engineers, four developers from any of those companies and said, "Hey, recreate, you know, create this altcoin, create this project." I feel like it could easily be done, you know, for a lot of them. I I I don't think it's something that that a lot of I think we kind of like pretend like some of the software that's created is like this really great thing. Um but then you know a lot of them are decentralized in name only, they're dinos and and anything bad if something bad happens, you know, the creators want to step in and fix things showing you that there's really a lot more they hold a lot more power than they would have you believe they do. Um, so I think crypto has an identity problem right now. And I think with the younger demographic, um, they're just not as interested in it. And I think the only way we're going to fix that is time, you know, where where investors, you know, a lot of people wanted the markets to not be regulated and wanted Gendler out and and everything. But the thing about markets is that whether they're regulated or not, they will self-regulate at some point. meaning that eventually people will get tired of losing money in scams and they will then elect to start not doing that and they'll try to do something else. So, I think we're kind of in that process right now. It's probably going to take a while for people to sort of have, you know, to grow faith in the in the altcoin market. Uh Bitcoin's different, you know, and I talk about crypto. I'm not really talking about Bitcoin in general. I mean, Bitcoin, I think, is in a league league of its own uh when it comes to the crypto industry, but for the most part, I do think a lot of younger people are not as interested in crypto um as they were maybe like five, six years ago. Like, you know, when I was when I was let's say 10 years ago, when I was in my mid20s, I was really interested in crypto. Um but I feel like a lot of people in their mid20s today aren't as as interested as as I was back then. And I I don't really blame them, to be honest.
Right. So then uh why Bitcoin? If you could talk a little bit more about that. So I can see that you sort of segregate crypto and Bitcoin. And if we could talk about why.
>> Yeah. I mean like I I think that like there's only one Bitcoin. Like there was if Bitcoin didn't exist, nothing else would, right? you know, with Bitcoin, the founder, Satoshi, likely passed away a long time ago. Um, we don't have to worry as much about a founder rugging the project like every other project basically. Um, you know, it I feel like it works. Like time has shown us that it goes, you know, the price generally goes up like up and to the right. Every time there's a bubble, people say it's over and then it ends up not being over. and then four years later we're at new all-time highs again. Um, but you can't say that about altcoins, right? Like there's so many altcoins that that don't do that and they put in lower highs. I bleed against Bitcoin. So, I guess the proof is in the pudding, right? In a sense of, you know, Bitcoin has been around for, you know, like four cycles, four to five cycles now. And every cycle, it has put in a new all-time high. Um, a lot of altcoins have not done that. They also change a lot of what they're doing. Like I mean even ethereum transitioned from proof of work to proof of stake. Um and I mean even if you look at in general like at adoption institutional like there's a lot more there's a lot more institutional interest in Bitcoin than altcoins. Um, and you know, there's also like just I feel like higher net worth individuals and uh family offices and hedge funds and whatnot. Like I I just think they're more in ETFs, right? You just see more flows going into into Bitcoin than than the altcoin market. So, I mean, I I think Bitcoin isn't going anywhere. Um, but I do think that if we are in a bare market right now, which is my base case, uh, and if we're in a bare market for, let's say, like the next 6 to 10 months, you're going to see a lot of altcoins just go to zero, you know, um, like they did on October 10th. I mean, some of them basically went to zero on October 10th. And I think a lot of altcoins are are going to die. Um, and that's just, you know, that's just the way it goes, right? like sometimes we need the bare markets to get the froth out and and to rebuild and I think that's that's where we are right now.
>> Okay. If we could now look at possible portfolio structure in the current environment so with everything that's happening then how would you think about structure in the portfolio so that you know it can survive whatever life brings. Um I mean I think you you need some I I think having some metals in your portfolio is is essential uh for this type of environment. The main four that I have are gold, silver, palladium and uranium. U my background is nuclear engineering which is probably why I focus on uranium but I also think that like the chart looks bullish as well. Um so I'd start with that. I I think with risk assets you start with low expense ratio index funds. You don't go trace, you don't need to go chase like thematic ETFs or anything like that. Um, you just start with low expense ratio index funds and hey, you know what? Yeah, we could be in a bare market for stocks next year. Yeah, it could happen. Uh, but you know, you just you're not buying stocks for next year. You're buying them for 30 years from now, you know. So, I think you have, you know, you have a decent amount in stocks like in in index funds, maybe maybe even equivalent amount in metals at this point. Um, you could argue even like I I mean it wouldn't even be insane to say having more metals than stocks isn't necessarily the worst idea given the current environment that we're in and given the similarities to the 70s, given the similarities to the S&P divided by gold looking like it's probably going to break down. Um, but I would say like, you know, you you could have like I would say at least 15% medals. Um, I, you know, for a long time, I was only at 5% metals. Back in like 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022. But then in 2023, 2024, I increased, you know, I decided to increase my metal allocation closer to like 15%. Um, and because I did that, now my metal activation has gotten even more because, well, they've done really well, you know. Um, so I I would say like maybe 15 to 20% in metals is a good baseline. Um, I would say an equivalent amount in in low expense ratio index funds or individual stocks that you are are bullish on because even in some bare markets, there's some stocks that do well. Um, like I've been really bullish on, you know, stocks like Google and Apple and Meta for a while and those have done very very well, like really well. Um, even Tesla, you know, I've been bullish on that one and that's basically almost finally getting to a new all-time high. Uh, so I think, you know, I think something like that. I then think it makes sense, you know, to I don't really think it makes sense to have a lot in crypto right now because I think it's a bare market, but I also do still have some Bitcoin and a little bit of ETH. Uh but that's it, right? Like I'm not sitting out here holding on to a lot of altcoins. Like I I mean I have some Bitcoin. I did sell uh a decent amount of my Bitcoin uh this in Q4 of 2025. um just because I think we're we're in a bare market and you know I wanted a little bit more cash. So, I I think going into 2026 with maybe like I don't know, I'd say at least 30% cash makes some sense as well because, you know, if if Bitcoin is in a bare market and let's say it goes down to like say 60K or something, 60 to 70K, which I think is going to happen by I would say it's going to happen by the summer. Um, you know, you're going to want to have some cash to be able to like buy stuff. Like the the worst thing is when the markets go down and you don't actually have anything to buy with, right? And then that's what leads to people getting very emotional about positions and and whatnot. But I think having at least 30% cash going into 2026 makes sense. You can at least earn 3 to 4% for the next, you know, annualized for the next few months while you wait and see if if we are truly in a Bitcoin bare market. Um, so that's kind of where I am. I'm not like that into real estate or bonds. I mean, I have a little bit of real estate, but it's not really like I'm not really an expert in real estate. Um, so I'm not really going to talk much about that. Bonds, I have 1% of my portfolio. Just 1%. Um, I think the reason is because like I feel like the only way to have lower long-in rates is to have lower risk, like lower asset prices. And I just feel like they're not going to want to allow lower asset prices right now. You know, like anytime there's any type of distress, they just start wanting lower rates and print money. So, because of that, it makes me think that the 10-year yield, 30-year yield could eventually go higher even than they are right now as potentially we see inflation come back. You know, Jerome Pal is going to be replaced as the chair in May, I believe. and the person that replaces them is probably going to run it hot and try to reignite animal spirits. Um, and so because of that, I could see the long ending of the yield curve going back up. So I have 1% in bonds just in case, but I I think things like TLT could end up coming back down um as like, you know, the 10-year yield goes back to 5% or even higher. Um, so that's kind of where where I am right now.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I love that you mentioned uranium. I'm big uranium bull. I I love the fact that you can look at these long-term contracts with the utility companies and they sort of predict the future demand. So it gives a nice floor and of course the trend with the AI and everything looks very very interesting. And so Ben, I like to ask this question for the younger audience. So if we have an individual who's still at the beginning of his or hers well building path with so many different options, what advice would you have for that person so that you know they can start off building well but don't make too many mistakes at the start?
>> I would I you know I would stick to the blue chips of the industries is what you really should do when you're starting off and and don't get sidetracked by shiny stuff. Um, like I I feel like so many people for the last few years told me why I was wrong for staying for keeping my crypto portfolio just Bitcoin heavy, you know? Like, well, you're missing out on all season. You're missing out on all such stuff. And I'm like, well, I'm in wealth preservation mode right now. You know, I want to preserve my wealth. And one way to do that is just by putting my crypto portfolio in Bitcoin. Um, and so a lot of people thought I was getting left behind because I wasn't like out there buying all these like random meme coins and stuff. Um, and they were like, "Well, we're in wealth creation mode." But their version of wealth creation mode just led to wealth destruction mode. You know, like one way to get rich is to preserve what you have. If you keep gambling away everything that you have on random crap, like you can't get rich, you know? And the reality is is Bitcoin went up 8x this cycle, you know, like that's a lot for over three years. That's a lot. Um, people need to be okay with that type of return. And and remember that like, you know, if you put in say, let's say you put in 10K into Bitcoin in late 2022 when it always bottoms, the end of the midterm year, you put in 10K, it's now worth 80K, right? Well, maybe now it's worth 70K. Um, but still and you're doing incredibly well and then you can look at that and you could even sell your Bitcoin and know that you increased your wealth and then let's say you wait a year and then you buy Bitcoin again at the end of the midterm year and now let's say you put in 50k of that 70k and then you put the 20k into something else. Maybe you go put it in gold or silver or stocks or whatever. You've created a lot of wealth, right? and now you have a lot more to grow. But if you took that 10K back in 2022 and put it into some random altcoin, you know, let's say you put it in like any altcoin, I don't I don't want to make enemies, so I'm not going to I'm not going to say anything as we I'm not talking about your altcoin as always. Um, but there's a good chance that 10K is worth less then or less now than it was then. So like you've given up three years of growth chasing an alt season that never actually happened. So I I would say like don't get distracted. Like I'm not saying you can't ever take on a riskier investment. Uh like obviously there's a time and a place for it, but you have to have like your baseline stuff, right? Like with crypto it means owning Bitcoin. With metals it means owning gold, right? With stocks it means owning index funds. Um, you have to have your baseline stuff because you don't want to end up being the schmuck who somehow managed to not have any return despite the fact that the market went up three years in a row. And there's people that are in that boat. And we've all been there before. Like I've been there before too where, you know, I was like sitting around like how how am I not up more? Like even Bitcoin was was up more um in, you know, in in 2019. I'm like, why am I buying these altcoins? And now the Fed bailed me out and they printed a lot of money and then you know we had an alt season but that didn't have to happen. Um and and so I think that I think if you're starting off like you really just need to focus on on what actually is is valuable and and and stop gambling, right? Like if you want to gamble, you can go to Las Vegas um and and gamble and and frankly you'll probably have better odds there than buying a memecoin at this point. Um, so like I I mean I'm not suggesting people go to Las Vegas and gamble their money, but I I'm what I'm saying is that you know if you're an investment if you're an investor there's like there's a difference between investing and gambling. And you know gambling is is not really it's not a form. It's not investing at all. Right? Like if you're going to buy a memecoin, okay, that's not investing. It's you're gambling. Um, so if you want to be an investor, focus on the blue chips. Focus on long-term and and trying not to get shaken out by short-term moves.
>> Yeah. Uh, very good points. And if you made 8x returns and not happy, then you're likely the problem because that does not happen. It's very rare and you should be very happy with these um returns if you look historically for sure. Um, so Ben, we covered a lot. These are pretty much all the questions I had. Um, would there be anything else that maybe you would like to mention that we haven't covered yet?
>> Uh, I don't think so. I mean, sorry, I'm jetlagged. I just got back from Dubai. Um, that's basically it. I mean, like, you know, I I would just say trade the market you have, not the market you want. Um, that's one thing I've learned many many years ago is it's easy to want a certain market and to trade as if it's going to happen, but if the market keeps telling you that's not happening, like don't ignore it. Um, and then the last thing is is the bears sound smart, the bulls make money over the long term. Um, I think that's pretty good advice to live by. Yeah, we're going to have bare markets, but when you look back in 30 years, you know, the bulls are going to be the people who got rich, not the bears,
>> right? Um, Sen, I have really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for your time.
Thanks for having me.