Transcription
There was uh a lot of controversy around Jack Ma disappearing, quote unquote, and uh reappearing a bit later. And there's been sort of rumors of some tense relationships that he has with the Chinese government. What is important to understand about the whole situation? Uh, like to what degree is it reflective of the issues entrepreneurs face in China?
In the US, capital controls politics, one could argue. In China, it has to be the other way around. Capital must be reigned in by politics. As part of the capitalist class, do not have the ambition to exceed the powers of the political class. is really at the core of it. I'd say the biggest difference between US and China. Um, there are important details that I think the West has not fully provided to the public. Um, for instance, Ant Financial, as innovative as it was, um, was doing banking jobs without being regulated like a bank. Right? So that obviously poses a host of financial stability questions and um, and rules and regulations and so forth. So the fact that the IPO was halted, uh, you could say that there were strong economic regulatory grounds, uh, for that.
But I think more broadly speaking, if you're an entrepreneur, part of the capitalist class, keep your head down, make money, and that's fine, right? Uh, do some philanthropy. There are also many, many other billionaires that are just fine, that are actually very much in favor, uh, of the political leadership and um, they do their thing. Now, I'm not saying what's right, what's wrong. It's just a very, very different culture and different country.
In the US, it's great to be colorful. I mean, you have a very, very colorful president. He would never have been able to make it in China. Uh, you have the likes of Elon Musk. It's great to be different. It's great to stand out. You do not want to stand out in China.
So the moral of the story is that the top leadership understands that it needs these top entrepreneurs, the likes of Jack Ma, and um, they have done so many great things for the country, even for the world. But in China, garnering too much influence and power, even through social media, uh, doesn't make you look that great. It's not a good thing for you personally. And and there's a saying in China that you just don't want to be the tallest tree, right? The tallest tree gets the most wind.
So I don't agree at all with the Western conclusion that this anecdote, this story has meant that entrepreneurs don't want to be entrepreneurs anymore. The young kids don't aspire to be people like Jack Ma. That's not true at all. The incentives are still there. It's a different kind of rich elite class in China.
So on on what dimensions do you think that the height of the tree is measured? Uh, is it is it more about just mouthing off in public? So, can you still be the richest person in China and actually not uh clash with the state? Absolutely. Don't be too outspoken. Don't try to get too much attention and too much influence. And just, you know, again, it's a cultural thing, but just keep your head down, be humble, uh, you know, contribute to society, do philanthropy, uh, work, uh, collaborate with the government, and you're kind of okay.
So, the signal the Jack Ma situation sends to the entrepreneurs in China is is is not don't be an entrepreneur. It's more like don't be too colorful. Don't be too colorful. And colorful means you can be colorful about the technical details of of your technology, but don't be colorful about Xi Jinping and and and politics and just stay out. Yeah. Stay out of politics.
But I just want to say that said, Jack Ma was really an emblem, um, of extreme success, right, for China, and the Chinese entrepreneurs look up to him. That's really important. It was a signal that unfortunately was misconstrued by this side and by also the outside world. Um, but it's laid a different path for what these entrepreneurs should be doing.
What do you think happened to him? So he's now, I think, living in Japan. That's by choice. By choice. No, he's look, he's an extremely fascinating character, which, you know, and if he were in the US, he'd thrive. Funny, witty, smart, wise, uh, creative, uh, loves a good life. And I think it's by choice that he's roaming around the world, um, given that he has more free time.
You think he loves China? All of them do. All of them do because their lives, their their destinies were totally changed because of China, because of the government, because of Deng Xiaoping, because of everything. So, um, you know, I know a lot of people from the the former Soviet Union, and there's a deep resentment of broken promises, broken dreams. So, that is not something you see. That's not how I would describe that generation and their feelings towards China. Of course, you always get exceptions, right? Are the ones who have moved to the US and who who wants a democracy. But by and large, people are deeply grateful to China, the Chinese government, the Communist Party, if you want to label it as that, because they've seen their lives be totally transformed. I mean, Jack Ma went from being a school teacher to becoming one of the most powerful people in the world. I mean, if you didn't have China, what what how could that have happened, right?