Transcription
Now from CBS News Miami, this is Facing South Florida with Jim Defiti. Welcome to Facing South Florida. I'm Jim Defiti.
Days after the capture of Nicholas Maduro, President Trump told the New York Times he envisions the United States controlling Venezuela and its vast oil reserves for years to come. It's also clear that at least for now, while the dictator is gone, the dictatorship remains. Deli Rodriguez, Maduro's handpicked vice president, is the country's interim president, while Interior Minister Cabo and Defense Minister Padrino Lopez, both under indictment in the United States, remain in their positions.
This week, I had the opportunity to speak to Juan Guyaido, the opposition leader who was named interim president of Venezuela in 2019. His presidency was recognized by the United States and more than 50 other countries, but he never was able to truly take power. He led a coup to unseat Maduro in 2019, but after it failed, he fled to the United States. During President Trump's 2020 State of the Union address, he recognized Guyaido in the gallery.
"Here this evening is a very brave man who carries with him the hopes, dreams, and aspirations of all Venezuelans. Joining us in the gallery is the true and legitimate president of Venezuela, Juan Guyaido. Mr. President, please take this message back to your family."
He has been living in Miami for the past few years and when I spoke to him, I started by asking for his reaction to Maduro's capture.
"Well, for me, from the perspective of a Venezuelan, the first word that came at my mind was justice. I have to say uh for that people who was kidnapped by the regime for those who tried to remove in a with a or his boat that regime once and again for the first word that came was Joseph but also hope opportunity to get back to my country. I mean I'm in exile in this moment for the persecution of the regime and with me 8 million Venezuelans 25th% of our population are in exile because that regime so for us was a a toshing moment and a hopeful one uh for our country."
Now, President Trump did an interview with the New York Times uh just yesterday and in it he said that he thinks US could be running Venezuela for years to come uh and working and he also expressed that he thinks he's doing well working with uh Deli Rodriguez and the others who are part of the regime. Do you think Donald Trump is making a mistake in trusting that he can work with Deli Rodriguez?
"I think the Trump administration with the state secretary Marco Ruo and President Trump, they're not they're not naive. I mean, they're they told Deli that they have to commit with the US with the transition and if they don't they going to get the same destiny of Maduro or worst. I mean that's an a strong phrase in this moment and that's useful to a transition. Why? Again Del is a entering dictator. I mean he's the second in charge of Nicolas Maduro. Not even Marco Rubio state secretary President Trump us in the opposition back in Venezuela are naive. This is a process a difficult one. I mean this is a criminal regime that we have to uh dismantal. We we need to uh get down that regime to reinstitutionalize Venezuela, the justice system back in our country, the oil sector to produce wealth for our people to produce also um re rebuild the hospitals, the schools, the infrastructure."
Is Deli Rodriguez someone you think the US should trust or or that that you think that she will I guess I'm just curious as to your impressions of who Deli Rodriguez is. You you talked about her being, you know, Maduro's handpicked number two. Uh and it appears that there seems to be uh since since the events of last Saturday, some stepped up repression, still people being arrested on the streets of Caracus. Does that worry you?
"I don't think that the US or President Trump or state department secretary Rubio trust this the the other way around. They don't trust her. But uh they they know that the criminal regime that that maintain the ELN far drug cartels back in Venezuela, we need to uh take it down and it's a process. erh we we can achieve a full transition to democracy erh with the opposition with uh the with democracy I mean with elections with a lot of thing that we need in short term so uh in this moment deli is between the swore and the wall I don't I I don't know if the translation to English is literally but uh he got an impossible situation you know"
The issue of oil. Donald Trump has made clear that oil is is very important to him in this process. Do you worry that for average Venezuelans in the country in Venezuela today that they will see that as a sign of the US is only interested in their natural resources and is not really interested in restoring democracy. Does that worry you?
"No. from the perspective of a Venezuelan and again we need to recovery our oil sector our oil industry that has decreased almost two3 parts of our production the last 10 years I mean we produced 10 years ago maybe 10 million I'm sorry 3 million bars a day today not even 1 million we need investment in the sector we need for that the rule of law is very important because if you have an industry here in the US or any erh erh were in the world and you want to uh get invest in any country, you need uh certainty, you need securities. So when the President Trump and Marco Rubio talk about the oil sector back in Venezuela for us is good news."
Have you spoken to Secretary of State Marco Rubio since Saturday?
"No. No, since I don't know."
Okay. And and when you talk about a transition to democracy, we're obviously also talking about potentially holding new elections. Is that what you want to see? Do you want to see new elections, or do you want to see the United States install the winners that they recognize of the 24 elections, Edmundo Gonzalez and Maria Karina Machado?
"We we want to see a full transition. I mean independence of powers fuel recovery the judicial system that infrastructure in the in the country start again and rebuild that infrastructure not only schools, hospitals and also buildings but also our democracy fully restored back in Venezuela. We want to be recognized but we also know that is this is a transition that involve also part of the regime. I mean in this moment uh we we got some kind of interim dictator you know but again we have to uh take down that system and rebuild. So it is an election a possibility, an opportunity in 6 months, one year, uh, one and a half year. I think yes. I mean, every transition around not only in Chile back in the in the ' 90s also uh, in Venezuela back in the 60s end with an election. Why? We have to renew all the powers. We have to make confidence for the people in the system. not not only in a moment, not only in words, we need to reveal uh the confidence of the people in our institutions and I think um an election could help in that way."
You referred to Deli a second ago and I just want to go back to it. You consider Deli Rodriguez to be an interim dictator.
"Yeah, I'm say I say that several times in the interview. Deli is the entering dictator. I mean, we're not naive about the situation and also the administration is very clear with the path for Deli and his entourage."
But you think also that elections probably are 6 months, a year or a year and a half away. You don't you don't see elections anytime soon.
"Well, we we want to to recognize the the institutions back in Venezuela. We elect Mundo Gonzalez. In this moment, we are facing a a transition uh that we want to end with democracy, with full democracy, with full rule of law back in Venezuela, the respect of uh the institutions. uh but uh we know it's a a process and we feel that the res the resistance of the Venezuelans their vote their sacrifice uh the refusal to to give up uh was not in vain and in that way we can achieve uh a full transition with an election. I mean uh it going to take time. There are a number of Venezuelans who are in the United States who were covered under temporary protective status who are subject now to deportation whether it's back to Venezuela or to Mexico. While this uncertainty is going on inside Venezuela, while Deli Rodriguez is still the interim dictator, to use your words, should should the Trump administration stop deporting Venezuelans from the United States? In other words, should he allow the temporary protective status of Venezuelans to continue at least for the short term?"
"If I understand well the the the the words or the statement of the Homeland Security Secretary, uh the Venezuelans could ask for a in this moment. So there is a a several ways to get protected in the US in this moment. the situation back in Venezuela is still as you know and the secretary say uncertainty. So in this moment the the the main or the first uh way to to achieve protection could be the the asylum."
Back in 2019 2020 did you ask for military support when you were interim president? Did you ask for US military intervention at the time?
"I went to the Oval Office in in 2020. I spoke of several things with the President Trump and we spoke about not an intervention I mean that work uh have a pedative like connotation. So uh we thick for help I mean and the use of power was one of them and we spoke about this situation but also in the UN I mean we need more tools to make accountable this kind of dictators because the impunity it's a a a very harmful thing for democracy for liberty for a stabilization of the region. So with this operation uh in this moment when they could uh happen not in 2019 or in 2020 in this moment with the context with the proof that the United States have against the criminal Maduro it's a moment to to to achieve and I have to say it was flawless operation uh to uh put uh before justice Muro."
Do you have any interest in potentially running if there is elections? Uh if there are new elections in in Venezuela, whether it's a year or a year and a half from now, do you have uh any interest in leading your party or trying to be part of uh any elections going forward?
"You know, uh when I was 35 years old, I was the president of the National Assembly, interim president of Venezuela, recognized by 60 countries. I I serve with all my life to my country. Uh in this moment I I already achieve that kind of charge you know that positions. Uh I want to get back to my country. I want to help to reveal our nation. I want to my two girls can go back to to our country as 8 million Venezuelans that have to to leave for the prosecution for the lack of opportunities and a lot of things but if I have to to serve I can serve in any uh position not only in a in an election one I already won several elections back in in Venezuela. We we need a a strong team. This is not a one person task. uh is a society task in this moment with the help of the international community and we're going to need not only uh Venezuelans uh we we're going to need a lot of people in investors we're going to need the the rule of law we're going to need help to contain the the guerillas back in Venezuela uh to the drug uh cartel so uh this is going to be very very good uh situation for Venezuela and and the and the region I have say,"
But just to ask more directly, would you like to be able to be president of Venezuela again?
"Maybe you can ask me in two years or five years or five years."
All right. Uh, Mr. President, I thank you very much for your time. Was there anything else you wanted to say or discuss?
"No, I have to say that President Donald Trump is a a man of his words. I mean uh several things that we discuss in that meeting in the old office in 2020 he achieved he he he was committed to to achieve and delivery for the region for the US and and for Venezuela and we have a a great gratitude with that that determination."
When we come back we will discuss the latest out of Venezuela with the Miami Herald's Tony Delgado. Stay with us. [Music] Welcome back. The Miami Herald's coverage of Venezuela has been exceptional, and that effort has been led by Antonio Maria Delgado. Tony was the first to report last October about secret negotiations between the Trump administration and Deli Rodriguez about her potentially leading the transition in a post-maduro Venezuela. So, in this moment, I wanted to talk to him about how Deli is now walking a tight rope, balancing her new cordial relationship with Donald Trump, with her long-standing ties to the Russians and Cubans, as well as dealing internally with the military and those that control Venezuela's secret police.
"The big question here is, can she actually do that? And and that's a big question because she does not have uh direct control over the military. She does have uh political power, quite a bit of it, but in the end, this is going to be settled by the guy or the people that controls guns. And and she's not it. uh she might be able to offer some kind of way out uh out of this situation for the uh the main delay share of the Chavistas, but you got key people that are wondering if there might be able to survive on this, namely Jos Cabo and Pino Lopez. uh you know uh Cababo has been allegedly been running the drug cartel himself for many many many years and he's uh probably the most uh powerful member of the cartel and you know arguably today one of the most powerful members of the regime. So how she's going to deal with that that's going to be very difficult. uh and what is she going to do for example if the US demands that she hands over Cabo to face charges here that that that that would pose a serious problem and the information we have been getting out of Venezuela is that Cabo have been working very quickly right now to shore up his uh his control over the military and his control of the people uh all across the nation all across the country not just the capital but all over the country uh to try to put him in line to be able to hold that control in case he needs it against Deli."
"You know, I I told you that earlier today I spoke to the former interim president of Venezuela, Juan Guyaido, and he described Dulce as the interim dictator. That was the phrase that that he used, which I thought was somewhat interesting. Um, you know, they seemed fine with the notion or he seemed fine with the notion that this could take 6 months, a year, a year and a half before elections may be held and that there's any sort of restoration of democracy. I'm curious when you talk to I know that you work with a lot of correspondents, you know, that that the Herald has, El Noel has within Venezuela, people who are doing some extraordinary, very brave work. Uh what are you hearing on the ground? Because we're getting mixed signals. We're we're hearing that they are releasing some political prisoners as an overture to to Washington, but at the same time, we're also hearing that they're making arrests of certain individuals on the streets who are protesting uh uh in in terms of support of having Maduro been removed. So, what is the situation on the ground in Venezuela?"
"I I it's kind of complicated. Uh I my sense is that I think Deli is trying to comply with the US and I I suspect there's a great deal of leverage the US has over DelC to the point that we don't exactly know what it is uh that it goes beyond the threat of if you don't do what we we say you're going to be next. We suspect there's more than that. Uh so there's we're seeing all this uh all this effort to go ahead and comply that includes the uh freed you know the liberation today of political prisoners. Uh but the uh uh the announcements made yesterday by the administration that the US is going to be running the oil industry that's quite a concession"
For years potentially for years to come.
"And and it is one that it it you know it' be hard to imagine in a Venezuela uh just a few months ago run by. Can you imagine though, and I'm wondering again what what you're hearing through your reporting as to how people the people of Venezuela within the country are reacting because there isn't a lot of talk about democracy. There is a lot of talk about oil and and with the way Donald Trump sumearily dismissed Maria Karina Machado and Edmundo Gonzalez. Uh, I'm wondering if you're sitting at home in Venezuela in the somewhere in the suburbs of Caracus trying to figure out what happens next, is your life appreciably being better now today than it was a week ago?"
"The answer is no. I mean, the regime is still there and uh there's a lot of fear. I think uh you got to start with the fact that the chavistas have you know basically no real popular support in the country. They I think uh if you honest if you did a a poll and and you get people to to answer honestly you would get that maybe their support is around somewhere between five and 10%. Not higher than that. uh you the rest of the the population wants them gone uh not not only because uh under Maduro the economy shrunk by somewhere between 75 to 80% which is you know staggering uh but also there was a lot of violence and the situation led to 8 million people leaving the country that's that's almost a quarter of the population uh so I'm guessing a A lot of people want to go out and celebrate, but they have this threat uh because they got the collectivos, the paramilitary groups outside and then there's a uh for years uh there's a risk of you, you know, grabbing you in the streets and and being taken to a prison and being tortured and which is quite common in Venezuela. Uh so uh"
And you think that threat still remains today?
"Yes, there's no change. Not not at this point. Uh so it's it to say that the country is free that's very premature. Uh I tend to agree with uh you know Juan Guido about this taking time because the key issues have not been resolved namely the control of the military which we know that you know like I was saying earlier that Deli does not have and the people that are opposed to this plan coming out of Washington namely Joseo and the defense minister and a whole lot of people are the ones in control of the military. So well, you know, it's really going to be difficult to be able to get some kind of formula where you can free, you know, free the nation and uh remove these controls of the people and uh without removing some of these key players."
We'll be right back. [Music] That's all the time we have today. If you have any thoughts or comments, feel free to contact me at jde defitcbs.com. I do enjoy hearing from you. Thanks again for watching and enjoy the rest of your day.