Multiculturalism and Racism in Korea | Korea Deconstructed #91

Let's start with this question, if we can, please. Multiculturalism. I think multiculturalism is a word that we've all heard. We see it five times a day in the news, in the media, and things like this. But this is something that you research and you write about. How, how should we understand multiculturalism? How can it be understood as a term, as an idea? Help us break this down first, please.

Basically, this became a word in daily life. So it became something like what Koreans used to utilize globalization or international force. So it became kind of a buzzword, and you can hear it in daily conversation, practically referring to almost everything. However, when we talk about it from a scholarly point of view, uh, first of all, like to explain it simply, uh, in every society, there is some level of cultural diversity. And uh, that can refer to uh, minorities, ethnic minorities, national minorities, religious minorities. In some books, you can even find feminists there, or um, disabled people, you can find as some kind of special group. But in 99% of the papers, you will find, uh, like this, uh, minority groups, so ethnic, religious, national, uh. And then how do we, how do we respond to this? How do we understand, uh, cultural diversity and how we respond to it? So you can respond to it in several basic ways. So you can neglect it. You can say, "No, there is no multiculturalism here. There are no cultural diversities. We want to be one country. This is good for cohesion," and something like that. You can, for forcefully assimilate them. Uh, you can forcefully assimilate them, and that was some principles during, during colonial times, but not anymore. Uh, then in nowadays, we have normal assimilation, meaning that we celebrate, like, dominant identity, and all others are kind of sphere of private life or something like that. Then you can integrate them, meaning like you can ask them, "So, what do you need?" And they can say, and then you can have this dialogue between, uh, the government and minorities. And you can also have a multicultural model, which is primarily exercised by Canada, uh, Australia. There are other countries, but they are kind of in all papers as top level, let's say. And that is, those countries celebrate, uh, this, this diversity as a country resource. So they understand that they can profit through it. They can profit through trade, through bilateral relations, etcetera.

And then how do we understand this on some kind of philosophical level? So multiculturalism, um, as an idea, let's say, was a counter-reaction to egalitarianism. So in every democracy, you have egalitarian democracy, meaning we have equal rights and equal duties. However, if you really realize, uh, we don't really exercise it 100% totally. What does that mean? Let's say in Korea, women don't go to the military. In many countries, women don't go to the military. If you have disabled people, you will allow them some special rights, for example. So even though we say equal rights, equal obligations, we actually don't exercise it that way. So how do we then understand it from a multicultural point of view? If you have religious minorities or ethnic minorities or whatever, and for example, we are in Western Europe, and in Western Europe, uh, those cultures are primarily influenced by Christian traditions. And we have Easter, we have Christmas. So if a person is Muslim or Hindu, what's the significance of those holidays for them? None. They really want to have their own holidays. So then you would need to do some kind of accommodation. And then that accommodation will, like, will depend on that, on that, on those three things that I mentioned, whether you will assimilate them, whether you will somehow integrate them, whether you will respect this diversity and see it as your job, one as your, like, resource. So this is some kind of basic understanding of multiculturalism from a scholarly point of view.

Yeah, when it's used, when it's seen as a tool or as a resource, is that a good thing? Because it seems to sort of be commodifying human existence, or will accept you because it's profitable, or is the end result of that worthwhile?

Well, again, it depends what do you do with that kind of resource, you know? Okay, to say, very controversial topic, you know. You can see female potential as a very good resource, you know, because female, um, females, we have our own special energy, we have, you know, special touch to situations. Women in business, for example, they can be more successful than men in some situations because they have their own sense of how to approach it. But if you see it as a resource, as it was seen during the colonial period here, and then you have the comfort women issue these days, still ongoing. How can I see that as a positive thing? Again, like I mentioned, two very extreme situations. But for example, how does Canada see it as a resource? As a country, they have to trade, right? So having, for example, especially with Arabic countries, it is sort of problematic, like, because they have their own culture which you need to respect if you want to trade with them. Then knowing Arabic is necessary. One of my friends, for example, we entered as interns in one large corporation 10 plus years ago, and he was exactly doing trade with Arabic countries. Before him, Koreans, people like, were doing that, like the same job, and they found multiple, they couldn't really sell. Why? Because they didn't speak Arabic. Then if you don't speak Arabic, second best language is French. They didn't speak French. And then the third thing is, like, they have a very, very unique culture that they don't, um, they don't allow modifications, or they don't, they don't allow some kind of this respect, or some kind of, how can I tell you, you cannot not follow it, even as a foreigner, even if you just trade with them. Let's say, in, in terms of Korean culture, that is also important, but over there, even more intensively, I can feel. So how can I see him? He's absolutely positive job on, positive resource for that company. Yeah, I don't see it as commodification. It's good for him, it's good for the company, it's good for Korean industry as well. Yeah.

So how does this work in a homogeneous culture like Korea? And is Korea homogeneous? Because you mentioned Canada and Australia and these multicultural examples. So can you say something about Korea's homogeneity?

So, like, uh, basically, like, when we overview the long part of history, if we say that Korea is a homogeneous country, that it was a hermit kingdom, I would agree with that. Like, pretty much of history, like, teaches us that. Um, however, nowadays, especially since the 1990s onwards, so many different types of foreigners have settled in Korea or came to Korea or come to Korea and then like return back or whatever. So currently, with 2.5 million foreigners, meaning 5% of the population is of foreign origin, it's difficult to claim that Korea is a homogeneous society anymore. However, uh, when you observe Korean culture, which is very much, how can I say, uh, doesn't really permit, uh, uh, too much differences. I mean, again, it depends how you view the same situation. Uh, I wrote one picture to students the other day, and because I couldn't really describe it. So in Europe, if you have me who came to some meeting or whatever, like wearing, uh, white blouse and, uh, navy, uh, navy jacket, then other ladies will not come wearing the same outfit. They want to look at least a little bit different. Yeah. So, like, showing your difference and your perks with those differences is kind of a good philosophy, some, it's a good approach. So then having taller, shorter, uh, people, hair like that is tall, that is long, short, curly, straight, whatever, a little bit different style is seen as your personality, like your advantage. Saying everything that everybody says, behaving as everybody behaves, is not seen as a good thing. But in Korea, we should more or less look similarly, we should more or less be tuned similarly. So this is seen as a good thing. And then how does this reflect to, uh, multicultural population or immigrant population? When you are in Rome, do as the Romans do. When you are in Seoul, do as Seoulites do. Yeah. So like, uh, but, you know, it's, it's very difficult for somebody who, uh, who is born in a totally other culture, even though like you want to respect it and whatever, and you do respect it, sometimes I think it's quite difficult to conform to very high standards of like homogeneity. I think so.

Yeah, is 5% a lot? You mentioned that 5% of the population, two and a half million, is of foreign origin. I'm not quite sure, is that a lot relatively? How does that compare?

So, how to elaborate? Um, so because of this number, 5%, uh, so many news outlets have informed us that we have entered this stage of being like a multicultural nation. That is not really comparative to the UK or France or like Western Europe, definitely not. However, it is, respectively, like a large number, I would say. Just my concern is like, among that number, we didn't see statistics of, or I didn't, at least observe them carefully, of people who permanently want to stay in Korea. And that's, that's where I see the Korean problem. Like, you have 2.5 million foreigners, okay? However, you have a large number of people who are here as non-professional workers, meaning E9 visa. That visa, you can, uh, give on five years maximum. So they will go, they are here, their juniors will come. So you have this kind of, like, replacement. They will not be settled here, right? Who is settled here? Marriage migrants, part of, uh, global talents who want to stay here forever, again, not a large number at all. You have ethnic return migrants, Joseon Koreans, Korean Americans who want to stay here for a long time or permanently, anyway. Like this, uh, permanent migration, I think, is a problem here. Yeah, for many, for many reasons. Yeah. And the biggest obstacle is, Korea seems hard. It seems like a lovely place, but people don't want to stay, you know?

I did recently a research. I'm constantly doing research, but let's say on global talents is the latest one. And my preliminary results show that, so, so global talents are people who, this is how I define them, as people who have at least a bachelor's degree or above. So they will be working in some kind of office, some kind of company, some kind of professional work, not some kind of factory. But, like, why I mentioned this? Because sometimes it happens that people who come from developing countries, even though they do have a high education degree, they end up working in low-level jobs. This is a little bit sad story, but I do understand why. In my country, there is a huge history of Gastarbeiter. Gastarbeiter were people who went as 3D workers to Germany. So I do fully understand like why is it that is because their high educational attainment doesn't give them high salary like where they come from. So this is basically it. So what was the question one more time? What are the obstacles to staying here? And the reason I asked is, people ask me all the time, "When are you going home?" Uh-huh. They get the impression that, yeah, foreigners will eventually. And I'm quite settled here, but there is always this question. I, when are you going home? Quite difficult question to reply. But I started, like, with my research. So, among global talents who are not married here, a big majority of them, like, wants to leave. And this is kind of sad reality. This is really sad reality. I also did similar research on talents in STEM, science, technology, engineering, math. And I was a bit depressed because, like, this, you know, that the Korean government on every single corner these days highlights that they want to have more foreign talents in STEM, attract more and retain more. Retainment doesn't work very well. So, as a number of reasons that they highlighted was non-permanent contracts, for example, low level, low salary comparing to what they could get abroad. These types of things, where culture, which is very hierarchical and doesn't allow them to, uh, to do something that they think it's natural as a scientist, for example, if they're in natural science, which many of them are. So if you have a scientific experiment and there is a result which says something, and somebody upper in the hierarchy disagrees with, like we do in Western Europe or, or the United States, it is normal if you have clear results to challenge that upper person. You're not actually challenging him, like, we don't think it's a challenge, like we think it's some kind of contribution to science. But in Korea, often they felt that the upper person is very much disturbed by the fact that they're actually saying scientific truth. So this was for them obstacles. And then for overall, global talents, one obstacle is immigration. So I'm not sure about your students, but my students sometimes complain to me that they have to get D10 visa, job searching visa, which is kind of complicated for them. Six months is okay, one year, not everybody gets. Getting a job in Korea these days are not so easy. Some of them face discrimination and prejudice, and for them, that is like one of the major additional reasons that makes them like repelled from Korea. I think I cover Korean culture, they often mention as something that, uh, disturbs them or something like that. But again, um, not, not all people deal with it in the same way, you know. And it pretty much depends also what kind of people did you meet, you know. If you work in a very hierarchical culture, very like working culture, it must be difficult. Must be difficult, yeah. It probably also depends what kind of person you are, not just in personality, but in your appearance, in your nationality, I think.

I want to talk about that. You saw 5% of the population is of multicultural origin, foreign origin. Do you see multiculturalism in your day-to-day life? Or things like that? How does it feel like going around? Does it feel like, "Wow, there's foreigners here," or something?

Sorry, for me, I was born and raised in Gyeonggi, which is not Seoul, but very close to Seoul. But living in, which is the part of Gyeonggi, I didn't really see multicultural people around me a lot because, um, the only way to see foreigners in daily life, day-to-day life, was to go to, like, English institutes and meet foreign teachers. And the other way was just watching TV shows or something. So I can see more people. So we didn't really get a chance to really interact with foreigners. So coming to university and taking some, you know, multicultural lectures made me feel like, "Oh, so there are foreigners in Korea and they're doing something." So, yeah, it wasn't really familiar to me.

You know what is one big change like in daily life? So I came here long time ago, first time, and at that time it was like 2008. And at that time, you were famous as a Western foreigner. So it was something exotic, you know? But these days, it's not exotic at all. Like, you see so many foreigners like myself on the streets, in universities. And I'm so much happy that this thing changed. Like, in Hanyang University in 2008, there were just several Caucasian faces that you could see around. But these days, no, like, it's, it's kind of common. It's kind of common thing. You have so many exchange students, especially exchange students, double degree students, people who come here like we did for master's degree program or PhD program, you know. I was so surprised that in the PhD program that I saw you and our friend from Poland, and we also had MA students from Denmark and the Netherlands, you know. I felt, "Oh, I'm nothing special, you know." Like so many people from Europe, especially Europe, came like, you know. Yeah, it was lovely. I thought this was lovely.

Marcelina, Marcelina, yeah. Oh, just, yeah. Can the name out? Is this representative of the, what's the word, of the 5% foreign-born population, foreign population? Is there a technical term?

I would say foreign-born population is more technical term because among that, you will have people who obtain Korean passport as well, so naturalized Koreans. So because Yuno is talking about, and we're talking about people at graduate school, people on university campuses, and people on television. And I would imagine that these are not the people like the Joseonjok or the people of Chinese Korean origin or things like this. So I would imagine we don't see much of the foreign population. We get a distorted view, or is that the wrong way of looking at this?

Okay, so, why I think that the main, that the mainstream media present sometimes a distorted view is because what you can see in media is what I call "pulsi," like some kind of stories of poverty or not so good life and poor social-economic circumstances. For example, you can see in media quite often stories of Vietnamese foreign brides. And actually, I was so shocked like, like when I wrote my thesis, that was in 20, no, in 2020. So there was one news, I believe from Korea Times. So in a span of five years, 20 women were murdered by their husbands, Vietnamese. And that even caused a problem in relations between Korea and Vietnam. So when you see this type of stories and stories of family violence, and this is definitely an issue, you know, because 20 is not a small number, not in Korea, certainly. Yeah, definitely. And then the second thing is, um, the issue of intermediary agencies, um, international marriage brokering agencies, I believe is the most technical term. Because they exist here since forever. And this is something that, as a European, if you have, I do believe that you have Europeans or Americans like listening to your program. So when you say in Europe or any other Western country, for example, that you are getting married or whatever, so the first question, "Oh, who is he? Who is she?" Something like that. In Korea, the first question is, "How did you meet?" Right? Why is it so? Is because in Europe, for example, it is commonly expected that you are going to meet your, your better half, in some social gathering, some casual atmosphere, whatever. You will become, let's say, friends or whatever, you will date, and you will like decide to get married. Like it should be, let's say, an organic process, let's say. In Korea, like, very often, like, when people explain how they met, is somebody introduced somebody. Many times, parents, relatives, friends, and whatever. And then extension of that, I could see marriage agencies. So I believe in the subway or whatever, like you could see many ads, right? And they do, you know how much they charge? No idea. I'm married. Yeah. I didn't try, but I heard from people like they charge massive amounts. Like, this is companies like Duo, I think is one of the big ones, something, yeah, like I'm referring to that level, like companies who do, like, brokering. So, so they're like pimps? No, I don't want to say so. In Korea, it is kind of not unusual that when you are of marriage age, that you or your parents insist on going to that type of agencies and like look for a person with specs that resembles your specs. So if you say anything of this in the country where I come from, they will think you're a completely crazy person because a person doesn't have specs. We are not refrigerators, tablets, or whatever. So you can, the person has specs. Yeah, that is in my country, that is very unethical. Specifications. Specification is what you will find when you buy this type of electronic goods. Like, then, like, why I'm mentioning all of this is because marriage agencies in Korea are sort of a natural phenomenon. And then kind of a natural extension of that was international marriage agencies. But in the context of what I told you with the murders of 20 Vietnamese brides, so it became really an issue because, uh, it came to light that that several of the, like, were so profit-driven that they hid some information, for example, history of mental illness of the groom, right? This is something that they should have reported, that the person has serious illness or had or is being treated. This kind of stuff, they, they conceal stuff that they should have, like, reported. So the regulations on these agencies, as far as I know, became more strict. However, still, we, still very often people meet and marry. The period between meeting and marriage often is short, and you can then imagine that some problems may appear. But Koreans, for example, don't think of it as a, um, big problem. Western people think of it as a big problem, let's say. So again, like going back to the question that you asked me about whether it's correctly, uh, represented. What I see in media, very often is what I call "pulsi," so poor, miserable stories about multicultural people, families, and whatever. So like my circle around me are people who are, first of all, very highly educated. They attend graduate school or they work as a professor, company workers, whatever, or multicultural families that are like businessmen or whatever. So I see a very different face of multicultural Korea. Yeah. And when we talk about, uh, the future of this society, I know that Korean society wants to attract, like, this type of people. But there is a good question, why they are like repelled. And part of the re, part of the answers are in my research. Yeah.

Maybe the "bully" story is also like Ali from Squid Game or something? I don't know if you saw that, where they portray Indian people or people from Southeast Asia as factory workers and very pitiful, rather than professors. We know people from those regions. So like, I interviewed one of my former students, and he told me that, you know, I speak about a person at a graduate school who will highly likely end up working for some business later. He was often stopped, and people asked him, like, "Which factory do you work for?" And that happened to, to one of our friends who is a professor. Yeah. So he was stopped. I mean, he was making such a fun from that situation in a bus. He was asked like, "So, so, whether your boss is good to you, whatever." And our friend likes to joke, you know. So he just engaged in conversation, "Oh yes, yes, he's very good to me. Nobody beats me like that." And then he exited, like, the bus. And then this old man was asking him, like, "So, so, who is your boss?" And he said, "Oh, the President of the University." You know, so that was a big shock. You know, so that stereotypes exist. When you accept them with some kind of humorous tone, then it's humorous. But if it happens all the time, people get bettered, you know. Yeah. And it depends on your own personality as well, how you take them.

You saw marriage agencies. Yeah, I was going to talk about it also. Give us something. I heard that there are part-time jobs for women to chat with the men, Korean men, on the marriage broker homepage, so that they feel like they have another half on that homepage. But the women shortage is happening because there are not many women who want to marry in this country. So there are lots of men in, um, their waiting for the marriage and they are wishing the company would find another half for them. But there are not enough women. So if a woman wants to, um, join that, you know, if a woman wants to like apply for that, it's not really expensive for them. But as you said, if a man wants to, um, write something and find their important half, they should pay more. It's a bit off-topic, but I thought that it was interesting. So there's a part-time job there, an alba, to go onto these websites and pretend to be potential wives, partners. And you just, you're not really going to marry them, but because there's not enough women, they have to do this. Is the money? Do you know anything more about that job?

You are interested? I've never heard about it. Like, how does that work? I've never really heard. Neither. But you see, excellent chance of remote work. Yeah. You get paid. Just I would do it. Do it. Well, they do, they, they don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

A marriage agency is still a thing? It feels very old-fashioned. It feels, but they, they still prominent here, I would imagine.

Well, I see still, uh, ads of agencies which are very high profile. And again, like, why I thought all that story is just to make your Western audience understand that even though that is very unusual for us, it is kind of almost normal thing here in Korea. So like, you know, when you ask also some older people, like, "How did you meet your wife?" Of course, through introduction. Then of course, I don't ask, is it an agency or is it parents or whom? But I would probably say for older generation, family connection or something like that. So in Korea, it is not unusual. For our culture, it is unusual. And it's not good or bad, it's just different here. And originally, two of the words I believe were "tamanu" and "in-u," like to meet naturally or to meet through the internet, those kind of things. Just like the problem, like with international marriage agencies, is that the meeting time usually is very short, and they don't have, well, in any economy, like you don't have perfect information, but they really have imperfect information about their potential partner. And then the thing is, like, when a bride comes, very often from a developing country here, and doesn't have enough means to support herself, she's then dependent on her husband. And there is that narrative to it, you know, can he support her? Is that a fair relationship? Because there is an asymmetric relationship, how I can say. Then there is, um, thing of, like, difference in ages, of course. Like, sometimes it works, but sometimes when you have an age gap of, um, 20 years, sometimes there's another issue, whether that is really, you know, going to work well. Yeah. There are plenty of narratives of it in it. And like, why I mentioned all of these stories to give you an example how Korean media always catch up on that thing. And for example, in our circles, you have met many foreigners who are very high profile, high profile people. And in this podcast also, you had high profile people. So, yeah, the face of multicultural Korea is not one. It's definitely, it's multifaceted. And only presenting only one face is also not correct. Yet, I'm hoping to get some, uh, Indonesians and some Vietnamese people on here soon. That's very much in my mind.

You say that in terms of these international marriages, as far as I understand this, it started around like the 2000s during the Kim Dae-jung administration when there was a government policy. But the policy is, in Korea, there are lots of men living in rural areas, and all the women have migrated to the city. And so you have men in Korea in rural areas with no, with little chance of marriage, and they have to stay there for family reasons. Policies from East Asian, the stands, and things like this to get them in. And that was a government policy that started from the 1990s actually. And, well, first it was a little bit not that official, and then it started to become more and more official. So with this trend of having rural bachelors unmarried, and Korean women, they all had the dream of coming to Seoul because Seoul is practically the center of Korea for education, for anything. With this huge disbalance, of course, you need to find then wives for these bachelors. Yeah, so you, you thought that correctly. And then what, what was the first choice? The first choice were choice on joke. Choice on joke. Ladies. And the reason is because again, J, sorry, because some people might know, not know what JJ is. Yeah. So Joseonjok people are Korean Chinese people. And they are settled actually in Yanbian province, which, if you can picture a map, a little bit above North Korea, most of them live. So they migrated, they migrated from the Korean peninsula to China in various stages in history, but primarily before Goryeo was founded in large quantities. So during the Japanese colonial period, yeah, practically during the colonial period, and a little bit before. But the in the biggest quantity, in the biggest amount during the colonial period, many of them were independence fighters. They fought for Korea to be independent from Japan. And later, when, in 1948, you know that both Koreas actually officially split. Before the war, North Korea and South Korea, they wrote their constitution, and one year later, Mao Zedong, China obtained power. So in that period, they became actually Chinese citizens. Yeah, they kind of lost their official Korean belonging. But again, because former Korea, Joseon Korea, was destroyed, and the new countries appeared in that geographical area, let's say, it was pretty much tectonic shifts in terms of geopolitics at that time here. So none of their fault, I would say. Then, maybe to return back to what I was saying, why Joseonjok were the first natural choice? You asked me about homogeneity first. So it has pretty much thing with that. So Koreans believe that they are one, one nation. You mentioned Dangun, right? Then Koreans, Joseonjok, technically, they share the same bloodline, right? Even though they live in China for long, for several generations, their accent is a little bit different. They still cherish a lot from Korean culture, original food culture, and whatever. But of course, they're slightly different. They were a natural choice because they share the same presumed bloodline. So they were the first natural choice. That's why first marriage migrants were Joseonjok. Then the pool of Joseonjok got depleted over a period of time, and then the second good choice were people from Vietnam, primarily. And that is because it was assumed that they share Confucian culture, and that they are going to follow that, they're going to behave very similar to Korean wives. But what they say, this story from me that I just was saying, so when they were explaining about family violence, about why there are so many, so many runaway brides, many of them elaborated that actually, even though they share the same Confucian culture, women in Vietnam are more equal to men than here. And the main reason is because that country is influenced by socialism, you know, a lot. And then that gap between men and female is not that big. Men are expected also to do house chores and these kind of things, while in Korea, you know, there's a bigger gap between genders. So this is where they found some conflicting cultural differences, I would say. So many books actually mention that this kind of like cultural expectations, it was expected that they would naturally integrate very easily into Korean culture because it is not strange for them, it is not unfamiliar. But when you scratch below the surface, even though it is, let's say, same Confucian culture, below the surface, it's, it's applied differently. I would say, same with every philosophy, you know, the principles might be same, but how you apply it, how you approach it, it's very much different. Yeah, it can be different.

Were there any success stories? You mentioned the tragedies of the 20 deaths in five years and also the differences in culture and what's expectations of women. Was there some good that came out of it?

Oh, yeah. Sorry, like, this is the reason why we should always present, you know, different faces of, like, multiculturalism. Yes, of course, there are also successful cases. Like there are books writing narratives from these women. Sometimes you have like people who fall in love, people who have very normal families. I wouldn't say that it's, no, no, it's absolutely not, not everything is like a tragedy. It wouldn't work if all was a tragedy. But I'm just explaining like the dominant narrative, some kind of problems that exist, and media really like to present, highlight it like very strongly. So then other narratives are not there, would say.

Is there a difference between, we already know that multicultural means many different things. So there's not one multicultural. I'm going to get my words wrong here. Is there a difference between a multicultural family in Korea and a normal family in Korea?

Okay, so when you say multicultural family, it is pretty straight definition. Yeah, in Korea, there is a legal definition, meaning one spouse must be of foreign origin, one must be Korean, child must have Korean passport. So why is it so? It's because if the child doesn't have a Korean passport, child will not be entitled to any benefits, like, you know, like, raising fee or free kindergarten or anything else. So you, the foreign parents have to pay all of these by themselves. If, if the child has a foreign passport, then like this, this rule applies. So when you talk about multicultural families, like this is, like, this is legal definition, like one person of foreign origin, one Korean, and child with Korean passport.

Was that something where you would determine to be Korean whether your parent, your Korean parent was a mother or a father? There was a change of that at some point that I, I don't know. I remember reading back in the '90s, if you don't know, but to qualify as being Korean, at one point, it had to be your father was Korean or something like that, and then it read paper or something.

That is, uh, how we understand nationality law, uh, from the first constitution, from in in 1948. Famous professor from Yonsei explained it in his paper, so I kind of like reutilized and elaborate how does it affect us. So in 1948, when the first constitution was made and first nationality nationality law was made, U, there was a definition who can be Korean. So who could be Korean? You could be Korean if your father was a citizen of ROK. But the problem is that ROK was made the same year. So nobody's father was a citizen of ROK, you get it? And then how to interpret that provision of law, it was assumed that the constitution writers, the law writers, understood Korea as Joseon Korea. So for that reason, North Koreans have practically almost automatic right of South Korean citizenship once they come here and once they pass the, uh, scanning process, let's say. And that thing with father also, like, you know, that father could be maybe, you could explain like more about it. Father was legally, uh, head of the family until, I would say, was it 2007? Or I will do mistake with the year because I must recheck. But I speak about early 2000s. This law changed, and technically then, if, uh, if there was a Korean mother, she could not, uh, translate, she could not pass her citizenship to her, uh, semi-foreign kids, right? That was a problem until that time. So from early 2000s, like ladies also can be head of the family, apparently. And it, the citizenship became transferable through mothers as well. I don't recall years exactly, but I remember that I wrote about it.

Yeah, that's really recent because you imagine in the 20th century, the amount of, I'm not sure if this is an appropriate time, like sort of GI babies or or babies with foreign men. So that was the issue with GI babies, especially after the war period, you know, that was the issue of stigma for mixed kids who were a little bit with black skin after the war, not just after the war, like, you know, '60s, '70s, '80s. So like, when you look at the stigma for, uh, mixed kids, I think it comes from that a lot because many of them were adopted abroad, you know, like, you know, because of that reason, mothers couldn't pass their citizenship to them until early, I believe it was early 2000s. I will do mistake with years, sorry. I didn't recheck. Yeah, it just blows my mind how recent that that is. That how, you know, we sometimes talk about, uh, very similar in Japan, but I, I don't recall what I wrote frankly speaking, so I will not do a mistake. But very similar situation we have in Japan also. And so I was trying to get out the differences between multicultural families and Korean families. One will be in terms of benefits. But the child must be a registered Korean. Yes.

Yeah. So you see, like, this is the thing, like, how will you, uh, how you observe this kind of situation, like, if you think there are so many nice benefits for multicultural kids, for example, yes, there are. But there are Korean kids, they have Korean passport, you know. So if you translate this logic to Great Britain or France or or anywhere else, so a person has two kids, have French passport, like, for example, but one kid looks a little bit Asian or African. "Oh, we will not give him free kindergarten." Why? Because he looks differently. That would be a top discrimination case, right? So like, if you transfer, like, the same logic, the kid is legally Korean, doesn't matter like one parent is foreign or not. So of course, he should have the same, uh, legal rights, right? So in terms of legal point of view, in terms of benefits point of view, they are Koreans, they have same benefits. And I think that's very good. That's like how it should be. Where multicultural families have a little bit more benefits than normal Korean families is, for example, we mentioned, uh, wives from Southeast Asia or, um, I'm also a foreign wife, actually. I'm also like married here. So, we have benefits in terms of, I heard that there are like free, free language courses, some kind of cultural courses, etcetera. So this is where multicultural family and multicultural people can benefit, let's say. This is like where I see benefit. Yeah. Uh, maybe I should highlight one thing. For example, if you have, uh, two foreign people with foreign passports, even they live here for many, many years, they have like, they will be foreigners, and their kid will always be a foreigner. Like they're not a multicultural family. So even though they raised their kids here and raised here, they don't have any benefits practically, which would be different, for example, if two Korean people went to the United States or went to Europe, they settled down, they lived their 20, 30 years, had children, put down roots slowly, those children would be integrated, have American passports and things like that.

Is that the difference? Absolutely. Because in countries that you mentioned, so United States, UK, I would add France, for example, definitely a typical case we have. So-called jus soli principle of citizenship, which is territory. So you are entitled to become a citizen of those countries if you are born there. And then, of course, if you are raised there, eventually you could absolutely claim citizenship, which in Korea doesn't work that easily. Yeah. And that's, as a principle, it doesn't work. Yeah. You have the stories of Americans going abroad, Koreans going abroad to give birth, get the citizenship, and come back. And I've heard those stories. I'm not sure how common they are. I'm not sure how common they are. But I think I'm pretty sure that it's difficult to receive a US passport if you're pregnant, US visa if you're pregnant. I know that it's pretty difficult, and especially if you are like, it's visible. Yeah, it's difficult.

Do you see in terms of education and going through school? I noticed a few more students these days that are not foreign. I get my words wrong here. That are Korean and perceive themselves to be Korean, but their name is slightly different, or, you know, that their ethnicity or one of their parents is different. Perhaps do you have you noticed any of that? Do you see any of that in your day-to-day life?

Or, um, I guess I would say in my high school or middle school, I saw like one or two students in my school life. So it's not very common, but their name is slightly different, or they have a Korean name and they have their nationality is another name, and their appearance, I'm not trying to offend them, but they look a little bit different from like Korean Koreans. So I could kind of sense them. But there were not so much difficulties, no like discriminations or difficulty for them because, um, all the students that I saw as, like, half-foreign students, they were perfectly fluent in Korean. So they didn't really perceive, they weren't really foreigners to us. But we would say that if there's like a foreigner in our school, we would all sense them. MH. So one or two. University, in university, never. I've never saw like there are international students who are like from foreign country and never had like any links between Korea. But I've never seen any like Korean and another nationality mixed.

It's, I remember going to various different schools in the United Kingdom, in Australia, and even looking at photos, just how different we all looked. At one point, my best friend was from Egypt, his name was Ziad Gip. And, you know, going around the house and smelling the smells and the food, and then your friend is from here. And wow, we used to tease and bully and discriminate each other, and the racism and the jokes. And it was, but I think it was because we were all different. I think it might be different if you have a majority group and then there's just one that stands out or two, then that might be different. But I think it was because maybe we all came from different places, or because it felt like that it was rife with, uh, observations and comments and jokes. And it was a boys' school as well, and so of course it was like that.

Well, look, um, I mentioned, uh, several times that racism, racism, discrimination exist all over the world, really. So like, again, what do you do with that? Like, you know, you hide it under the carpet, or you try to talk about it, like you try to address it, solve it, whatever. In Korea, like, when I was writing my thesis in 2020, like the reason why in that thesis, there is also the, um, the discrimination and racism stories inside, because like 90% of papers at that time, like, were addressing policies. 95% I would say. What does that mean? What to do with Korean multicultures? Improve policies, let's teach foreigners Korean, let's teach them Korean culture, whatever. And my concern was is because from the experience of my friends and people around me, I intuitively knew that there is a hierarchical treatment of foreigners in Korea. So it is, it is different if you are, let's say, while, if you are a white male American, if you are a black female from the United States, if you are from Africa, if you are from Southeast Asia, I know that there is like differences that people were complaining a lot that they get different treatment. So I had to find different ways how to address it. And it was not so simple because we had one, somebody before me who tried, but if you don't have appropriate theories and some, like, materials like to support it, you come to, so what story, like, you know? So Koreans also get horrible treated abroad. Asians get horrible treatment in the United States or Europe, or, you know, like the famous stories of, uh, almost gang fights between Koreans and Mexicans in LA, for example. So, as I mentioned, racism, discrimination exists all over the world. Like, but it, it depends what you do with that.

You really successfully highlighted the cultural differences in terms of dating and where did you meet between Korea and Europe. Could you say something about how the races and the identities are seen differently here? Because you said there is a difference if you're a white American male and if you're a black woman and things. So how does it work? Is it as we would perceive or as we would get it? Or how does this, like, some people use words like "Hadi" and things like this, or "Mali"? How does it work? It's probably changing over time, isn't it? I'm very sorry to interrupt you, but those as countries rise and fall in terms of their powers, and it's probably shifting slightly, or so.

I mentioned the theory of, uh, noish nationalism or noish racism. Like if it is, uh, if it is more intense, what does it mean? You know that, like, Korea developed, uh, quickly over several decades, and that is a remarkable story. I love it. It's one.

Of the reasons, like, I really wanted to come to see how did they manage to do it in Europe. It takes years to do that, so that is a very, very positive aspect of it.

And then, what is a negative side of it is that some kind of, uh, social terms, social aspects, uh, social understanding, uh, didn't develop as well as it should be. So, um, "newly-rich nationalism" actually means nationalism of the newly rich people. This is like how I would translate it, and it has roots in Korean ethnic nationalism. So, we talked about homogeneity. Koreans already perceived themselves as like one blood, like one nation, having the same ethnic roots. So, then, uh, this sense of, uh, quick development boosted Korean pride, which is excellent. It should boost Korean pride, but again, what do you do with that? Like, if you are proud, that's proud, that's great, you know? Like, use it, like, use it positively, that's great. But, uh, to some people, it gave a feeling of cultural superiority over, uh, other nations who are less developed or who are in the development process.

So, um, then which countries are developing? So many of them in Southeast Asia, for example, many of them in Africa. And many of these people are having, um, many of these people have different skin tones, a bit darker skin tones. So, since the 1990s, primarily, we saw the appearance of, of "newly-rich nationalism." And people then, foreigners, like, get evaluated according to, um, their skin color, their country of origin. Did you ever receive a question in Korea, "What's your GDP? What's your GDP per capita in your country?" No, that's because you come from a developed country. Mmm, yeah. But, uh, very often, if, if Koreans are confused about like where does your country stand in the hierarchy, they would ask a question, "What's the GDP per capita of the country where you come from?" So, you know, it's like that. For me, it was not an issue because I'm still European. But, um, yeah, for people from developing countries, it's an issue.

So, how does then this, like, relate to hierarchy? Uh, this is the reason why people from South Asia, primarily, let's say India, Pakistan, those countries, Southeast Asia, still developing countries, uh, while they get treated as something less. Um, again, uh, if we talk from the European point of view, this exists over there as well. I cannot say that we are immune. I cannot say that there are no prejudices over there. However, people know that this is wrong, you know? Um, it is very wrong in, in public dialogue, in the street, or in front of others, to say that somebody is something less or whatever because of his or her origin. That, that really passes under something very bad. But in Korea, you know, I noticed like even what I would call highly educated people, uh, who don't see really a problem with that. Yeah.

Anti-Chinese discourse, anti-Japanese discourse, or wherever it might be against, it's part of civil society here where it exists in Europe. But you're not allowed to, you're not, people don't say the quiet out loud. I must say, I'm also disappointed in my own country. Like when I see, uh, this anti-sentiment against sometimes against Asians or something like that, I'm always disappointed. Like, you know, because, um, I tell as a joke, if you really want to discriminate somebody, you cannot do it because of something that person cannot change. So, a person is born from that country, the person is born with a certain skin color. What can I do with that? Like, should I do 100 surgeries like Michael Jackson, like, you know, skin color? Like, what do you expect of me to do? This is an innate thing, so something we can't really change. But if a person is ignorant, like, maybe, maybe you have a right to discriminate because you can still study by yourself, you know? There is, the internet is almost free of university, okay? Like, depending like where you study, whatever, like there are informal ways of educating yourself. So, being ignorant is not really, um, something that we can say that is, uh, unchangeable.

Variable. It can, we discriminate clothes? Then changeable qualities are you giving us permission to according to clothes? Yeah, it's not an intrinsic, [Music] quality. Okay. I'm not sensitive to fashion. I'm not sensitive to fashion. But, you know, like when I first came to Korea, I was quite sensitive to fashion, okay? Yeah. For example, but Korea really improved in terms of fashion, you know? Like when I came first time, I saw girls like just putting so many random stuff, like, you know, uh, random colors, just, I think, you know, like the more, how can I say, more, yeah, stand up. And I was going to, no, no, no, like, you know, we, I would never wear something like that. But I don't see it really these days. I see it's pretty much standardized these days. Like I wouldn't say it's, uh, fashion terrorism as you used to say in the past. Yeah. So, yeah, maybe you should ask somebody who is French, you know, they really are against French, is like, you know, they like to have good clothes, like good fashion. So maybe you should ask, um, somebody who is French, what do they think about, can we discriminate people according to their clothes? Yeah. But I don't, I can't really praise myself in this, in this era, in this, in this theme, because I, I like to wear practical stuff and like, uh, uh, I have two closets, you know, but I think I, I utilize 10 to 20% of that clothes.

Can I ask you another stupid question? It's not stupid. You talk about "newly-rich nationalism" that as Korea became richer, they started to discriminate against countries that were still developing or hadn't made the steps that they had. If Korea was therefore still poorer, they would be nicer to people. We were talking about this on the way over, how materialism and money and Marxism and all of these. But you understand the point that I'm stupidly trying to make, that this sudden wealth has brought around a different attitude and changes towards them. Without that wealth, there would have been a nice, um, it's stupid, isn't it? No, you put me in a comfortable situation, you know. I think some famous person said, "How can you reply smartly to a stupid question?" Like, do you know that definition? Like, you know, how to translate this in English? When an abnormal person in an abnormal situation talks abnormal things, the only normal thing is the only normal thing is abnormal. I get it. You get it. I, I'm with you. So, if you are in, okay, I don't want to translate this to this situation, okay? But so, what, what was the question? One, as they got richer, they got more sensitive. I would say this to you, Galana. When I was speaking to Robert Zosi from Stanford, and he does, um, biological evolution, he told me that as we get richer, we become more sensitive to smells and sounds. And so, a lot of the time, when you go to very rich countries, they will smell less. I know it's a weird thing to say, and they will be quieter because as our economic, uh, things go up, we become more sensitive to the environment around us. I didn't know about this. I mean, it's an excellent theory. It's a key thing in sort of "Parasite." That the, they, they're very sensitive to smell, and the poor people cannot smell themselves. If you go to a upmarket restaurant, if you go to a posh restaurant, it's quiet and it smells nice. If you go to a sort of a cheaper place, it's noisier and it's more raucous, and there are smells. And so, I'm just wondering about how, um, Korea's economic growth has affected its attitudes towards multiculturalism, and does that mean that culture, countries that are less developed financially, they have different attitudes, and it's all just based on the money? Uh, the only thing that I want to reply to this kind of question is like, when you put it on an individual level, recently I watched some YouTubes with kind of, um, rich people from our region, the Balkan Peninsula. So, um, many of them said that, like, for example, for new rich individuals, the people who became individually quickly rich, most of them don't have, um, well-educated, well-behaved kids. So, this is what we call the curse of the second generation in my country. So, like, you have parents who worked extremely hard to get somewhere, right? But they didn't really have time to spend to invest, invest like time-wise in their kids, or like their kids assume that, you know, wealth is natural, something that they simply have. So, they cannot even understand like why their parents, even though they are rich, they still don't want to, um, enjoy that wealth, you know? Okay, you get it. Like, but I get it. Even though my family is not, you know, like rich, my grandfather, for example, he never wanted to eat bananas, right? This is because when he was young, there were no bananas, right? And when, as he grew, there were bananas imported, but they were so expensive. So, so in his older age, when bananas like were so cheap and we could afford a lot, he still didn't want to eat. So, if I translate this logic to these kind of like rich people who are like self-made rich, they know what kind of difficult path they needed like to go to that, and they know the value of money. And some of them don't want to, um, overspend money on stuff they don't need. But kids, they want new stuff, okay? Like, let me buy, they want to afford, sometimes like they want to for, like for their kids what they didn't have. And one, one millionaire from the Balkans, like she said that this is according to her opinion, like the biggest mistake of like rich parents, they should teach kids how to suffer, let's say, not teach them how to, you know, "Oh, you are 18, a new Mercedes is for you." You know? So, translating this logic, uh, to country level, not easy. But, um, well, like I said, this question, "What's the GDP per capita of your country?" is often used like to evaluate like hierarchically like where you stand. And again, I will go back to the story of India. So, first of all, it is absolutely not okay to evaluate people higher or less according to like where they come from. But, you know, that in India, you have well-educated people, not well-educated people, rich people, poor people. So, our friend who is a PhD and a professor was asked whether he is a factory worker, etc. I also personally interviewed people who are talented postdoc researchers in Stanford in science. They told me that they were treated in the immigration office horribly, like "banal." We, even though they stay in Korea like less than me, they know perfectly like what is "banal," and they know when some manner of speaking is not right, not nice. Like, we don't, you don't talk to adults in Korean like you would talk to kids. You don't scream. But this is how they were treated. So, um, I don't know what is their background actually in India. But of course, they are like well-educated. I don't know, like maybe there is a rich person from India that if the person doesn't show his money, would get the same, I guess, like this is what would happen. So, yeah, this is how ignorant it is, in my opinion.

One stupid question and then a follow-up question to that. It's a very quick, easy one. Um, what do you call bananas where you're from? Are they just called bananas? In, uh, in Croatia, the bananas, bananas, the same word? Yeah, the same word. Okay. Bananas. I just love the way you say it. I don't know why. It's the pronunciation. Banana is one. Banana would be like plural. Yeah, lovely. Um, can you say this is maybe sensitive? But you said that, uh, people from India in Korea, they would be perceived, they would be treated badly, they would have "banal" or non-honorific language spoken to them. Can you say something about, um, the way perhaps white women, or white women from Eastern Europe? Because I believe you've done some research. We talked a little bit about this. I don't know if you can open this door of controversy, but it's, it's a real thing, isn't it? What is it? The, uh, prejudices about them being workers? And, um, I guess it's featured in the movie "Gisaengchung" (Parasite), where he says, "I want to go to Europe." He said, this is in Korean, "where pegma," this kind of thing, "white horse." So, I know it's sensitive, but that's also one, isn't it? Or not? Okay. So, what I, uh, gathered through my research is that was something that little bit, shocked that shocked me, not little, but a lot. So, many, around, uh, 80 to 90% of my respondents who were female, and again, all of them, all of them are global talents, so people with above university degrees, some of them university researchers, professors, etc. They had some situation, uh, that they were asked, "Are you Russian?" Um, so even people who don't look Russian, I must say, even Latin Americans, for example. So, that question, first I thought that that, are you talking about language or whatever? No. Um, usually when you are asked out of the blue in, uh, subway, in some public place, from some male that you don't know, it means, "Are you a prostitute?" Or, "Are you a..." Why that came to that trend? I may only assume, but, you know, it's, it's horrible, really. You know, and ladies told me about really, like, sometimes it's just, you know, not really serious, but some ladies really had uncomfortable situations, like, you know, that they have to like escape the situation or something like that. So, that became some sort of, um, a thing. My students told me also that sometimes they had uncomfortable situations, you know. And I was even worried, like, sometimes, you know, I think that's why your research is important because I remember talking to you about it and not really understanding, perhaps believing, or being conscious of the severity of it. And when you talk about the research, frankly speaking, because I also live here, so I can observe the situation, I wasn't aware of that, of that prejudice that is that intensive. Neither, again, apologize to, like, first, like Russian, um, Russian people, like who might be listening to your program, because, uh, that became some, they put like "Russian" there in a sentence, but, uh, again, women who were targeted by this were from all over the world and looking in totally different. So, um, I may only assume like why this became a thing. I may only guess, but I didn't feel it personally because of my lifestyle, you know, work, home, I don't really go out, I'm not really out at night. So, I never experienced really personally this thing. Maybe once in a subway when I was going back from home, I was at PhD, and we were finishing, remember, classes sometimes at 9:00 and then I was taking subway. Once I had an uncomfortable situation, but I was so shocked to hear that like 80 to 90% of my, like respondents, they told me that they were asked this question, and they knew what was the like connotation. They didn't, the connotation was not ethnic origin, the connotation was not the language, culture. Like the connotation was like this. And some of them told me it was a pretty dangerous situation, like they had to escape or something like that. Yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing. Yeah, it is a thing. It's, it's a meme, but that it's actually not just a meme, it's a real thing that happens, is, uh, really important to to know about and learn. And I think that probably brings me to this very important question towards the end, which is, what do we do on a day-to-day level? Like, we're here and we, we live here, and there's government policies, and you mentioned those, and they're very important. But as human beings, or as people that living in Korea, what do we do to make the world better? How do we push the needle a little bit towards the better? We, I'm not talking about utopias or or world peace or something, but how do we, how do we do this? You know, these days I do, uh, some research about conflict resolution, like peace building, these kind of things. So, multicultural people, people of immigrant origin, I think are extremely important to improve understanding. One of my friends, one of my dear friends, she said that conflict is not only military. So, conflict is like, of course, like what's happening in Ukraine is a military conflict, right? But conflict many times happens in people's hearts. You know, we prejudice against other cultures, we sometimes discriminate even without knowing, we have some fixed ideas, and then we are often fed by media, which represents stuff very often in black and white, you know? To give you, like, one example, one example would be Taiwan. After Ukraine started, there was such, I would say, hype in media, "Taiwan might like, might happen as well." And I would guess that, uh, it was not fun being Chinese at that time. So, being, uh, multicultural, promoting this understanding of different people, I think contributes to releasing tensions down, understanding others' point of view. And this is at least one step toward conflict resolution, you know? Remember when we first met, maybe first semester of my PhD, did you understand my jokes? I don't think so. Did I probably laugh though? Yeah, very good. You know, like, but something that I would consider maybe normal, you maybe didn't consider appropriate, right? Maybe it took us time to understand each other, right? So, the way I see in a daily life how it functions, like when I hear prejudice against whichever nationality, I have friends from highly likely from that nationality, and I have first them in my picture, so I know that it's not black and white as media portrays. And again, going back to the Taiwan issue, uh, I was hoping that more scholars like would try to put the ball down, like, you know, "Okay, if this is like a real, potential problem, whatever, how to resolve, how to go towards peace building?" That is a much more healthier approach than, you know, uplifting tensions. Yeah. We, we both study international relations, so I'm actually quite concerned about what's happening in the Middle East these days. The whole Europe. Yeah, yeah. So, media plays a big role in this, I think. Media sensitivity, because we can't avoid media, can we? But it's about how we engage, how we deal with it. But did you notice, for example, like talking about Ukraine, before the actual invasion started, nobody believed that it would happen. Even though there were clear signs of military movements, everybody was thinking that Putin was bluffing, right? And we accepted that's also story from media, right? And then when it started, there is another type of dialogue that now the whole Europe is in danger, that we might see a second Hitler coming, right? So, how do you see that? I mean, it's kind of, um, um, click clock, how can I say, the, it flips 180 degrees from one to the other, or something. Yeah, something like that. So, um, you know, media is not often like, uh, critical thinking from any perspective, I guess. Uh, there also with like what they have to report, but, you know, broadening our minds and like, you know, approaching stuff critically is so much important. Again, if you have a multicultural background, if you have friends from different cultures, then you understand that, you know, not everything that is presented as black and white is true, you know? Yeah. It's great. I wonder before we finish this, whether you might have a joke for us. CU I do remember something you would like to tell them before you get it. Already it evaporated from my head. Sorry. So, sitting here, just as we come, maybe to an end, like hearing about multiculturalism and theories in real lives and different, any thoughts about the future, about real life, about what happens in Korea and foreigners and everything else? I thought that it's a very Korean thing to say, by the way. Korean multiculturalism depends a lot on "exoticism" in my opinion. For example, not "exoticism" as like Korean actors or idols kind of thing. When we see a picture of a Korean, Korean-looking family, we would not really think, "Oh, they are maybe from another country." There are possibilities. We would think that, "Oh, they're looking like Korean, so they must be Korean," kind of opinions. But when I was talking with my American friend, she would say, "If I saw like one Asian, Asian man or woman's picture on a textbook, she would say like, 'Oh, I have an American friend looking like that.'" And if she was French, I would just believe it. But Koreans just don't get it yet. So, I thought that the reason for that is when you see Korean textbooks, especially the part for multiculturalism, you see all the pictures of like exotic-looking people. That's all you learn about multiculturalism. That's why Korean multiculturalism is quite superficial, you know? So, I think we should fix it from the education. And I also think that media plays a great role for people to, um, for letting people know about, "Oh, there are like very, very, very much of multiculturalism existing in this society, in this world." So, yeah. Yeah. It's a brilliant point. You, so that multiculturalism doesn't have to be people in exotic clothes and sombreros and all of these different things or hijabs, but multiculturalism could be just an ordinary, what would be perceived to be an ordinary-looking family. How does the word sound to you in Korean? Because we've been using English the whole time, but like "damunhwa," does it have any vibe to it for you? "Damunhwa," does it sound different from multiculturalism? Or is that a stupid question? It sounds a little bit different for me. If I hear the word "multiculturalism," I think of like all the cultures around this globe is like mixed or like existing together. But when I hear the word, which is the same word in Korean, that reminds me of more of Asian people, like people from Vietnam or China, as we talked about. I don't know why, but interesting. I like having different perspectives here. It's amazing. You, Galana, maybe to bring this towards the end, any recommendations? Books, movies, dramas? It doesn't have to be related to multiculturalism, doesn't have to be related to Korea, but things for people to watch, to read, to see. Okay. So, first of all, I don't really like this media representation or whatever in Korea about like multicultural families. So, maybe I would recommend just books. Books. And definitely for people who want to understand multiculturalism, what it is, first of all, definitely author Will Kymlicka. He is, let's say, um, the most cited author in terms of multiculturalism as multiculturalism as a theory. I would definitely like recommend him. Yes, in Korea, you have a book about "New Varnish Nationalism." I recommend that one. Like that. Okay. Okay. Thank you for your research. Thank you for your, for your jokes. Thank you. It's been great. Good. Thank you. Okay, let's take a minute and then we'll do something in Ukraine and so on and so on. Ukraine and so on and so on. Exploit us and so on and so on. Racist.