Transcription
You can't carry everybody with you in whatever project you're you're doing, you know that, um, that you will, whatever way of life you lead, um, create a certain amount of discord and enemies. And that doesn't have to mean that the life you're leading is wrong.
Alan, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
What is high performance? I quite like that phrase. Becoming the best version of yourself, you know, which we hear a lot. But, um, what does it really mean? I think we're always aware that there are days, periods of our lives which kind of honor our potential more than others. Um, and I think, you know, the trick of being happy is not to achieve anything and everything. It's to achieve what you feel you're capable of. I think that is what leads ultimately to happiness. Um, I think all of us are are aware of a sort of latent potential in us. But especially at the beginning of, uh, you know, when you was finishing school, maybe going on to higher education, you feel that potential in a very diffuse form. Yeah, you you sense there's something in you, but exactly what it is can take such a long time to work out. And I think a a life where you've, you know, really exploited your your own potential performance is one where you've, you've located, um, that sort of best self and you you put it to work. Um, and I think that's going to be happiness for you. Very individual. Um, it's going to be very, very individual. Uh, which is why all definitions of success that aim for us one-size-fits-all are always going to be, um, you know, very wonky. And, you know, we know certain things like, um, a certain amount of money versus time. That money-time equation is going to fit different people. We know, we know that sort of thing. Um, but there are also other things, you know, how much nature do you need around you? How many friends do you need around you? Uh, how much intellectual stimulation do you need? Such individual answers. And finding those sort of inner keys to your, um, sort of, you know, musical score is going to be absolutely essential.
So what advice would you give people then for how they can find the answers to that question? Because there will be people listening to this to think, I've never even in my life considered what am I capable of. I've kind of gone along with the status quo. I've perhaps been derailed by the success of other people. I've taken on the sort of societal norms of a big house and a, you know, a good salary and 2.4 children and two holidays a year. But I don't really know what I'm capable of.
Well, I think it's, it's first of all, it's really normal to be puzzled by the question. I think sometimes people think, I don't know what I really want to do, therefore there isn't anything that I really want to do. I think that's the wrong way around. Not knowing, um, is very, very normal. There are very few people who say, you know, I want to be a brain surgeon and that's it, and I'm just going to go for it. And I, I knew when I was 12 and now I'm 93 and, you know, it was absolutely right for me. Very few of us are like that. Most of us have to, I sometimes to think of it like, um, passing a metal detector over the ground. And every now and then there's a, there's a sort of beep at certain moments, um, when you're coming across a version, a future version of yourself. I sometimes think a really good guide to what you might be doing and who you should be is envy. Every time that you feel envious of someone or of a situation, and you know, you come about, you, someone someone tells you what they what they're doing, and and you feel, "H, I kind of hate them." Um, and if you use that, that hatred, it's, it's, it's often a sign that there's something that they're doing that you're capable of. That's why you've been slightly triggered by it, because because it's, you know, you recognizing a kind of future potential. So using envy is, I think, a really useful step. And then just slowly assembling that, the the jigsaw puzzle. Do various exercises like, you know, imagining 12 different scenarios, um, of of your future. Just going, you know, let's try and grade them on on a scale of one to 10. You know, in 10 years' time, I am a, how does that feel? Uh, in in 10 years' time, you know, it's a Tuesday morning and I'm off to do, do, do, do. How does that feel? Um, sometimes our minds are a little bit obtuse. I mean, you'd think they'd work that bit out, but no. We, we, we sometimes have to go through an almost childishly simple thought exercise to try and project ourselves forward and see how we might feel.
I love that use of the word envy. I think reading your work, Alan, I think you have access to like a real emotional literacy that you're able to take words that in our society we might have a priority of view that envy is a bad thing, and you're suggesting it's a good one. Would you just expand on that for us a little bit more?
Well, I think, you know, sometimes we, we're a bit too addicted to a positive image of ourselves. And we take fright too easily at things that would suggest that we're a bit more complicated, we're maybe not so normal, we might be in, um, bad. And we take fright so quickly that we cut ourselves off from some of our richer, more complicated possibilities. Um, you know, I sometimes to think about this in relation to anger. You know, many of us get upset very often by people close to us, by little things that they do and that hurt. And anger can accumulate. And if we don't have a safe way to discuss it, to discharge it, what can happen is that we go numb. We maybe get weighed down by a diffuse but unanalyzable sense of sort of despair. Um, or we flinch when they come close to us. We don't want them near us. The real reason is that, you know, there's something we need to get off our chest. But because we're a little bit too rigidly, um, keen on thinking of ourselves as as good people who who, you know, just very loving and kind and upbeat, we don't allow ourselves to to go to some of these darker places. And then the problems start to accumulate. So I sometimes think of taking emotion like anxiety. I think anxiety is often a worry that doesn't know itself. Now, why doesn't it know itself? Often because the anxiety is contrary to something that we want to believe to be true about ourselves. So we don't want to feel alarmed about something because, because, you know, it has no place in our sort of image of ourselves or of the world. Um, similarly, depression is often a sadness that we have no, um, space for within our conception of what's normal for us. So, you know, let's imagine, I don't know, uh, someone left us five years ago. Well, why, we're a normal person, why would we still be upset about that? You know, that's not possible. Actually, you know, the mind is is a strange and complex organ. Maybe maybe we are so allowing room for for some of these more unusual ways in which our minds work can actually leave us feeling lighter in ourselves.
So just to go a bit deeper on that, are you saying that someone with anxiety, part of the anxiety is caused by fighting the feeling?
100%. I mean, this is, you know, we are the old expression, our own worst enemies. Um, in that we, we, we know we're fighting civil wars. You know, that other useful expression, being at peace with oneself. You know, we may be at war with others, with with life, with situations, but so long as we're not at war with ourselves, that's already a big burden off us. And and often we are fighting these, uh, these wars. I mean, you know, take somebody who, um, feels that, uh, I don't know, they, they need to adhere to a certain religious code. But another level, there's something in that code that's brushing up against something pretty substantial in their nature. Constant, there will be a constant, unhelpful war. Um, uh, so, so yes, I think a lot of feelings that cause most trouble are those where, um, there is a, a kind of a refusal to accept that we might be a certain thing or a certain way.
And your willingness to, lean into some of these more uncomfortable emotions, I think, is really interesting. So take somebody feeling that they're ordinary. And I love that you often say, well, that's a good thing, rather than our society sets us up to believe that being ordinary is something is abhorrent, or we should be afraid of it, or rage against it. Would you explain why being ordinary, or settling, or compromising in a situation, these often seem like quite bland or anodyne emotions, but actually are really important to high performance?
I, I think, I think we've got a really conflicted vision of the good life in in our societies. And I think particularly, um, Anglo-American societies. On the one hand, we're democracies, and so we believe in the kind of the legitimacy of every single voice, everyone needs to be counted. Um, these are also societies with a predominantly original, um, Christian background. And, you know, Christianity very much emphasizes the dignity of every life and every human. Um, but at the same time, there are societies that are, um, pretty aggressively hierarchical, where, um, there's a sort of sense that, um, you know, the winner should take, if not all, a substantial part. And that mediocrity is associated with being like everyone else. I mean, you know, if you said, um, to a young person nowadays in in the United States, United Kingdom, and say, you know, I, I'm, you know, I'm aiming for a life where I'm in many ways just like everybody else. That would be seen as dispiriting, depressing. Um, and I think, you know, we, we think very well of drama, drama and melodrama. And, um, uh, you know, many great things are achievable, perhaps only with a certain level of heightened, um, activity and, uh, stress and all the rest of it. But, um, I think the, the ability to tolerate one's own averageness in in many fields, um, is the beginning of a certain sort of wisdom. Um, and the insistence always on, um, specialness is is a kind of malignant, um, you know, situation. Um, you know, the notion, for example, that, you know, at school of life, we, we like a phrase that, um, if you've done well as a, as a parent, your child should have no interest in being famous. Um, nowadays, um, a lot of people want to be famous. You know, it's, it's a very common aspiration. That's a sign that something is failing us in our understanding of, um, an ordinary existence.
Come on, say, let's say more about that. That's, I believe that, um, an exaggerated desire for for fame, for distinction, is often trying to compensate for, um, a feeling of invisibility. And the more invisible someone feels, the more they feel that they must be up on a stage of some sort or another, in a in a spotlight. And, you know, scratch below the desire for fame, what is it for? What's it really about? And here I'm really talking about desire for fame rather than desire for distinction on the basis of something you're doing. Um, it's really the desire that other people admire you, um, strangers, that people who don't know you, think well of you. And I think, um, it often hides a sad story of of some form of invisibility or injury. Um, and I think that, you know, the more we create a society in which, um, you know, you don't really exist until you've achieved distinction, it becomes a kind of arms race. Well, then you have to achieve distinction because there is then no way of getting that distinction. Um, you know, of course, what's the first question everybody gets asked in the modern world? What do you do for a living? And we work, of course, we work for money, but we also work in order to have an answer to that question, which will deliver us that other thing we so want, which is a sense of being seen and of being respected. Um, it's such a powerful human driver. And, um, and and and and obviously the more, you know, we speak of people feeling solid inside or not solid, what does that really mean? I think that, um, a child who's had an extremely intense period of having felt at the center of the world, um, grows up into someone who can tolerate not being at the center of the world. I think sometimes in our story of parenting, we exaggerate the dangers of giving children the limelight when very little. I mean, I'm talking, you know, one-year-olds. There's a sort of feeling of like, oh no, that kid's getting spoiled. You know, they've been on the earth for all the 12 months and they are spoiled. I, I don't see such a danger there. I see a much greater danger in under-privileging, under-spoiling, if you like, someone in the very early years, which then sets up a dynamic that they have to be, you know, aggressively on stage thereafter.
Can I just delve a bit deeper then from a purely personal perspective? Because it's interesting you say this because we have a son who would happily not walk on a stage his entire life and is more than content just to be chilling out and doing his own thing. And then we have a daughter who, as I say, is wanting to dance, act, sing, perform, record, be seen, take selfies, all the other things that, as you, you know, slowly edge towards your teenage years, start to reveal themselves. Yet she's also the one of the two that will, we praise, "Ah, son, she will go, well, you never say that to me." Although we do. "Seb, you've done well." "Well, have I done well?" Whereas if we say, "Flo, that's amazing," her brother would never go, "Well, am I amazing as well?" And I've never linked the two things. Do you think maybe they are linked?
Yes, I mean, look, you know, families are such complicated things. I couldn't possibly, you know, weigh in and, and, and, you know, there may be really subtle things about about gender and, you know, within the family dynamic, mother, father, who, you know, where does the attention go? Go, um, oh, it goes to her, mostly goes to Florence more than. But the reason why I think this is really interesting, actually, is because I think there'll be a lot of people listening to this who can relate to a child who seems so confident in some ways. And other people would go, "What a confident young lady." And actually, you know, that the most confident child in our house is the one that is never pushing themselves to the front.
That's right. I think the confidence to to be, as you put it, chilled out and be in your room doing your own thing and just not caring. I mean, that is, if we're talking about success and freedom, that's that's the gold dust. You know, the, the ability to not care so much. Of course, you know, you might, everybody wants the fine things of life, but to sort of have a relaxed attitude to that, that is a sign that emotionally you hit the jackpot. That, you know, it gives you such freedom, such latitude. Um, it means you don't need everyone to like you. Um, it means you, you're not a people pleaser. You know, that imagine the ability to encounter people and while not being necessarily rude to them, why, you know, that's its own problem, aggression. But but but simply be slightly neutral. They might like me, they might not like me. I don't need them to like me. And if there were a tricky situation where, you know, there's an issue of like, do I tell them the truth or do I, uh, safeguard their affection by not telling them the truth? You have that ability to say, you know what, I'm just going to say it the way it is. Again, this is a sign of tremendous, you know, if we're talking about performance, high performance, success, happiness, this is, this is where you're really hitting something extremely special.
So can you give us a bit of a masterclass based on your School of Life work and and your numerous teachings? I think there's something really special about your ability to lean into those uncomfortable emotions and create a space where you can scratch a bit deeper and say, what is this telling us? What is missing here? Or what, what is it a real insight into what really needs? And I, I can imagine there's a lot of people listening to this, Alan, that are interested about how do they do it? So they might have children, they might have partners, it might even be for themselves, where they have this uncomfortable emotion, but they want to explore it. Can you tell us how you go about doing that?
Look, I think, you know, the way the human mind is, it, we're not obvious to ourselves. It takes quite a while for us to understand truly what we're feeling and then let alone expressing that to other people. So it's a, it's a sort of life's journey to be able to know oneself and then communicate oneself properly to other people. What are the blocks to knowing oneself? Well, a lot of it is, um, as we were talking about earlier, an anxiety about what you'll discover. You know, those moods when you don't want to be alone. I think they're always very telling. You know, mood, you just think, I'm calling somebody up. If I'm really honest, I don't really want to call them up. I just don't want to be alone with myself. That's often a sign that something is struggling to break through into consciousness that is quite disturbing. Um, you know, imagine those moods when you go to sleep, but you wake up at 3:00 AM and something's bugging you, but you don't know what. I often think that insomnia is a kind of revenge for all those thoughts that you refuse to have in the day that are coming back to bite you. And, you know, as I'm saying, you know, a lot about who we are doesn't fit our kind of mental models. Um, there's a wonderful psychoanalyst called Donald Winnicott who came up with this theory of the true self and the false self. And he argued that in proper healthy development, um, a child is able to reveal and know their true self before they have to grow and sort of nurture a false self. He also thinks that you need both. You need both true self and a false self. Self. Now, a true self is going to include some some difficult material. Uh, if you let a child express their true self, they'll say things like, "I hate Granny. I absolutely hate Granny," or "That person's fat," or "Why is that person got no teeth?" or "I hate school," or "Daddy's an idiot," or whatever. And the, these are going to be part of what the expression of a true self will be. And sometimes, you know, in the parenting role, you can think, "Oh my goodness, I'm, I'm bringing up a savage or a monster or something. I can't allow these feelings. I can't, I can't possibly reward the expression of this sort of emotions." And you shut that down. You basically say, you know, if you show me this side of yourself, I will not accept you. And it can be, this message can be delivered a bit too early. Particularly, you know, you know, parents have so much going on. I mean, I don't want to blame parents. I've been a parent. I've been on the receiving end of parents. You know, it's complicated stuff. But if a parent, for example, is struggling with depression, they can't deal with a child's despair. So they, they might feel, you know, if there's any signs of of despair and negativity in the child, you know, and then the child might feel the need to be very upbeat. You get, you get that, okay? You know, I'm sure we all know people who can't be sad. They're aggressively upbeat. "How are you?" You know, there's manic energy. And I think mania is an interesting word. It's when you're running, running, running from something, from feelings, true feelings that you can't bear to face. And and that often does have a story about how the true self has been sort of locked out. And then, you know, you grow a false self, which has got to be, whatever it is, very strong, very upbeat, or indeed very weak. I mean, you get, you get these fascinating things where, um, children have to fail because their success is a threat to somebody in the surrounding environment. Fascinating kind of possibilities where, you know, often it's a father, can be a mother too, um, you know, in order to protect their own position, they need the child not to do that well. And then surprise, surprise, the child keeps taking early retirement from things because they've been presented with an unconscious choice between either you succeed and you have I Ed and you lose love, or, you know, you fail and you can still be in the family circle. So all these very subtle messages are kind of passed down. So, so looking at that, looking at your, your own life through the true self, false self, um, model, and and almost saying, you know, how much of my truth was allowed out, um, and how much did I have to become somebody else in order to, you know, be loved and tolerated? Now, of course, you know, in adult life, we always have to show a false self at points. Points. And, and, you know, one would be a very disturbed person if one couldn't.
Give us an example of that.
For then, you know, I mean, look, I think there's two, two extremes on this: the people pleaser and the manic rebel. Okay? So the manic rebel, we, we've met them all. Uh, they're about to sit their GCSEs and they decide that that's the time to tell the teacher what, what you really think about them. And and it's in the exam that you're going to have to write. It's in your English exam that you're really going to tell, um, the, uh, the examiner what you think about, you know, this book or whatever. And you can't stop yourself. And then, you know, later on, when your boss is is there, and it's your first job, again, the manic rebel thinks, "I've, I've got to have to tell the boss, the boss is an idiot," and they're going to have to know right now. And, you know, they get fired. And surprise, surprise. So this person keeps tripping themselves up. What's going on there? It's almost as though their sense of integrity is so fragile, they think unless I'm constantly putting up a battle, um, for my true self, uh, I'm going to be a compromised human being. So therefore, I've got to burn all bridges and generally make a big fuss all the time, otherwise, um, you know, I won't be real anymore. And that's, that's that comes at a huge cost for somebody. But then there's at the other end of the spectrum, you've got the manic people pleaser. And they've got a problem too, because, you know, you ask them how they are, and they're always fine. And in a relationship, how are they? They're absolutely fine. Until they no longer are. And, you know, it goes on and on until maybe they have a breakdown. Um, a breakdown can often be a sign that you've not been bending very much to to the truth inside you. And the only way of getting to that truth, that true self, is through an extreme breakage. And, you know, that's an un very difficult psychological possibility as well, that that sort of, you know, that the truth can't come out without a crisis.
Now, sometimes a crisis is a, you know, is a good thing psychologically. And there are some people who can only start to get well after they've broken down.
Say more about that, because again, that's how society says a crisis is something to be avoided. And that's an intriguing response to say it's a good thing.
Well, it's, it's a good thing because the alternative might be to keep going, um, at too high a price. Um, you know, I think our bodies, for example, are fascinating instruments of honesty. Sometimes, I I think that the mind needs to get certain truths out, and it will knock at our conscious door and say, you know, "Please, I'm a little bit unhappy in this relationship, in this work, uh, with with the way I'm living, with the, you know, my friendship group, whatever it is." Um, and either the conscious mind listens, at which point the symptom abates, or it doesn't listen. It's too difficult. There's some kind of conflict around that. And then the symptom has to go somewhere else. In one of the areas it can go is the lower back and the shoulders, and maybe other parts of the body, which are places that, if you like, sort of there are a kind of bodily conscience where, you know, if, if something hasn't found a way of expressing itself, you'll be doubled up in pain and unable to cross the room, um, you know, because you're not listening to a signal from from within. So sometimes our, our symptoms, um, and they could include, um, you know, the inability to get out of bed. You know, I sometimes moods and situations where people will find themselves moving from a so-called high-performance life where they're very busy doing all sorts of things, and then suddenly they can't get out of bed, or they can't even speak, um, uh, you know, they might not be able to feed themselves. Suddenly, I mean, you get, you get very extreme breakdowns where the basics of life kind of cease functioning. And I think those are interesting moments because there are, there's a search for health via the medium of illness. And I think that in our society, which likes to give people a pill and then send them right back out again without exploring what might have made them ill in the first place, we often miss the opportunities that are afforded to us through through a proper deep reading of our symptoms, which which holds so many clues.
I think I just need to know whether I should be saying to my children, "You can do amazing things with your life." Because my fear, if I don't tell them that they can be amazing, I might remove that that spark that could give them this incredible life. I, I'm fearful, if you like, of saying to my children, "Hey, just be average. Just aim for the status quo."
Look, I think we have to unpack the word "amazing," you know, and what that really means. Um, ultimately, an amazing life is going to be relative to the individual you're talking to. And, you know, we began with this. It's, it's a, a good life is means properly exploiting the potential of every human who who we happen to be addressing. And that potential is going to be very different. So there isn't a one-size-fits-all. And the problem with words like, you know, if you went down the street, the microphone said, "You know, what's an amazing life?" You'd immediately get a fairly standard answer. You'd have, you know, money would be high, there could be certain renown, there could be, you know, a penthouse apartment, etcetera, etcetera. So, and and that will be fine for some people, but actually not attuned to what others want. So, uh, um, yes, life has lots of potential. You want to say to to to children, but, um, let's be very individual about what we mean with words like success. Because, you know, no one is a success at everything. No one is amazing at everything. Every success involves a failure in another area. Um, and because, you know, not all things are compatible. Yeah. So you really have to, um, uh, you know, cut a, a very personal path through these choices.
So should they still aim to be ambitious? Should they still want to be the best of the best at their chosen thing?
I think they have to get a powerful sense that the world is made by human beings, not by gods. This could sound a bit odd, because you might think, well, no one thinks the world is made by gods. But I think we sometimes, it's a very natural, childlike position. When when you first show up at school, you know, you're tiny, you're the size of a small chair, and and, you know, the teacher is a giant, really. And and it seems like they control the whole of the world. And they tell you this and that, you got to learn this, and you got to do it like that. And from that, we take away a sense the world is built according to laws we don't quite understand by people who are, you know, immeasurably more powerful and skilled. And, you know, something's going on in a, in a room somewhere where people are pulling the levers, etcetera. I think to give your child a sense it's a world built by humans, all of whom basically are a little bit like you, a bit scared, a bit, you know, a bit worried, a bit flawed, a bit good, a bit bad, etcetera. And you can have a shot at shaping how you see your life, um, is a very important lesson. You know, you walk down the street, why, why does the street look the way it does? Because, you know, someone had a really bad idea about what urban design was in about, you know, 50 years ago, and that's why this the street looks as awful as it does. There's no, there's no law in this. We, we could be living in a beautiful town. Maybe. And your child might design the beautiful town if you, you know, get into that sort of position. So rather than saying the way it is is the way it has to be, in many areas, there's much more flexibility. And I think, um, you know, traditionally, this has been something that, you know, so-called privileged people have, you know, because they see, you know, Mommy or Daddy is actually the Prime Minister. And so, you know, they're, they're pulling the levers of power. So the child gets a sense, "Oh, well, it's, it's just, you know, that idiot in the kitchen who I call Mommy is actually also going off to, you know, he's got a cabinet brief or something." And then, you know, you get the lesson automatically. Um, and that, that's the sort of privilege. That's what, that's a certain psychological privilege to think, um, the world is made by people that I could see in the kitchen. Um, but but if you think the world is made by gods who live on Mount Olympus, I, I, so I think anything you can do to humanize the structures of power, if you like, is a very useful thing for a child to know about.
I love the sense of autonomy. The other thing I'd like to expand on is that lovely quote that you say about so much of our life is done trying to impress people that we either don't know or don't even like or care ourselves. How do we go about teaching both ourselves and others to be able to immunize ourselves against trying to impress others and instead focusing on impressing ourselves?
I, I think to to really absorb the lesson that you can't carry everybody with you in whatever project you're you're doing, you know that, um, that you will, whatever way of life you lead, um, create a certain amount of discord and enemies. And that doesn't have to mean that the life you're leading is wrong. It, it's just the necessary price of making a choice. That every choice you make in your life will alienate in some way. You know, you could marry a person, and that will annoy someone. You, some along the road, you'll have annoyed someone. You know, if, if you do this job, somewhere along the line, someone will think, "That's not right." It'll trigger them in some way. And we can panic a little bit too soon. Um, everybody creates envy and discord in in others, not willingly. It's just, it's just an inevitable byproduct. And to not panic about that and to think, I don't need to carry the whole tribe with me, as it were, that I can, you know, I can have my own smaller circle. Um, and not everybody needs to agree. I mean, there's something manic and paranoid in the notion that everyone has to agree, everyone has to approve. No, let it go. Let it go. Some people are not going to be with you. Doesn't mean to say you've made the wrong choice. It, it's probably a sign that you've made a rather determined choice.
I love all of these things we're talking about. My fear though is that we can instill these thoughts into our children, we can have these conversations with our partner, we can discuss these things with our friends. But the truth is, we live in a society that doesn't a really good example. I recently left my job as a football presenter. Not a single person came to me at a party or an event or, you know, a friend and said, "You must be so excited about freedom." Every single person had the same question, "But what are you going to do next? What, what's your plan?" Almost like I had to have something to define me. I was almost screaming inside to say, "Why can't it just be enough to to be here? Why do I have to, why are you so obsessed with what am I going to do next?"
I mean, really, really. Of course, what one should say, it's hard to say, is, um, "Why is my freedom so frightening for you?" That's really what you should be saying to them.
What an answer. Yeah. Why is, why is, what is it my freedom is triggering in you?
That's really what you should be saying to them.
Of course, of course they are. Of course they are, because it's a massive threat. You know, they don't like the, the rigidity of their life, but they don't know how to get out of it. So somebody's jumping out of the prison, um, presents a huge threat. So if you've picked up a little bit of latent hostility or coldness, um, that's because, you know, you're, you're posing a great challenge to them. You're essentially saying, "Why aren't you, why aren't you jumping out the prison with me?" And that's, yeah, it's frightening for them.
So, you know, we're talking here about a lot of, uh, symptoms, if you like, whether it's, you know, children to put fame high on the agenda, whether it's adults or children caring what other people think more than caring what they think. There's lots of things happening here. I think the question that I'd be asking is, why is this happening? Why have we, you know, we've been around for thousands of years, we've evolved as human beings. Why have we not evolved to the point where we're having these kinds of valuable conversations and reframing what failure is, what success is, what high performance is, what happiness is?
Look, I, I'd say that we're still at the dawn. We often think of ourselves as as quite late on in history, like we've been around for ages. We're still, we're still learning to know ourselves in at a very basic level. I think that, you know, the whole field of psychology is is barely 100 years old, you know, as we know it today. It's 100 years old only.
Well, you use a bit of a metaphor in your book, Alan, don't you, where you say that it's almost like our view of our understanding of our mind is like how we view 17th century doctors putting leeches on us to get blood out. It's still quite rudimentary.
That's right. That's right. And I think one of the things that we're learning is our really perplexing and dispiriting sensitivity, if you like, over-sensitivity. I mean, when, um, uh, biology got going in the, in the late 19th century, and when we really started to understand microbiotic life, you know, people discovered extraordinary things like, uh, you know, in a glass of water, there might be microbiotic life that could kill an entire city. And you couldn't see it. It's a clear, in a clear glass of water, there might be certain germs or, um, uh, living that would that would could kill a million people. This seems utterly implausible. And I think we're at the psychological level still learning that so-called small things, very, very small things, can have an intense impact on our psyches, which is what makes modern parenting, of course, so fraught and so interesting as well. Um, but I think that we are, we're learning that we are very, very delicate machines. I think for most of human history, we were looking to survive. Nowadays, we're looking to thrive. It's very different. If, if you're trying to set up a, a human being to survive, well, you know, you can give them a slap around the ear every now and then, and, you know, they'll, they'll live. They'll have a good life till they're 35 and then they'll succumb, which is what human beings did for most of our history. You know, we were dead by 35, and all we were looking to do was just to kind of procreate the next generation and, and survive until that time. Um, we're now looking to live to be 90, and dare I say it, to be happy, and to develop our talents, and develop our potential. So we're still working out what's, what's a developmental path got to be for that, if that's our ambition. We may need to really retool how we're seeing development. And, um, massive implications. Um, and yes, the family is, you know, is the place where it all starts. I think we all know, you'll know, I know people who will be in their 70s, 80s, and you'll talk to them at at length, and they're not, sort of, they're not people who might otherwise moan, but it quickly emerges that what held them back for their whole life was something that happened when they were three or four or five or six or or nine. And very often, it's what one might call a shortfall of love. It's quite a weird concept that that love, um, which is a word we kind of too narrowly associate with, um, you know, going on a date and Valentine's and all that. But the love in human love, um, is, you know, as important to our development as vitamins are to our healthy bodily development. And shortfalls of love lead to appalling deformations of character that can have lifelong consequences. And and it's, it's hugely, you know, I think we all wish it wasn't true. It's, it's so daunting.
And what do we do with that information? It's so, such terrifying piece of information.
What do we do with that information? I think one of the things we do is to look really, really very carefully at what a family is. And how people are brought up. I mean, in the same way that people learn language. Think about the poorest of a young child. A young child between the age of, you know, nine months and four years is incredibly receptive to syntax, grammar, and vocabulary. And and they learn. They end up learning, you know, Hindu, Finnish, English, Korean, whatever it is, whatever's in the area, they will learn that language. And without anyone sending them to school yet, it's just they absorb a language. And I think while that's going on at a linguistic level, at an emotional level, a child is also learning an emotional language. The language of, you know, what happens, you, what's a man, what's a woman, uh, what's tenderness, what's love, what's a reward, um, you know, what's good, what's bad. All these lessons are kind of pouring in while people are, you know, eating an animal-shaped pastry in the kitchen and drawing, um, pictures and doing hand, handstands in the garden. It's all being absorbed. And I think we need to really reflect very carefully on that. We're all, I mean, we're all going to get it slightly wrong in the in the parenting role. Um, thereafter, I think we need to acknowledge that all of us will have tumbled through the kind of, um, sort of whitewater rafting of of childhood and probably be slightly hanging out the raft and lost limb and, you know, be scratched all over. And we need to work out where are our wounds? Where are our particular wounds? What's particularly difficult for us? What are the ways in which we're not doing justice to reality? Because all of us have some pretty strange ideas about life that are bequeathed to us by our complex early histories. You know, we'll have, we'll have odd ideas about, you know, anger, envy, kindness, success, all these, you know, slightly in one area or another. Um, you know, think about every, everyone you work with, everyone you, or everyone you at school with, you know, imagine a group of 10, 20 people. Quite quickly, you'll think, well, okay, that one always does that thing, that one always does the other thing. There's the, that that one who just can't get that thing straight, whatever. All of us are the, are the kind of legacies of these, of these complex upbringings. And we're all, and I say this with with love, we're all a bit strange.
We really all of all of that's great though, right? Let's be strange.
Yes, let's be strange. But let's also find a way. I mean, there's good strange and there's tricky strange. There's tricky strange which actually, um, trips you up and and stops you from being the better version of yourself. Now, one of the problems we, we tend to have as humans is feedback. Now, feedback is so hard to receive. And we know this in an office context, and we know this also within a relationship context. I mean, one of the deepest wishes we go into relationships with is, "Love me for who I really am." What a difficult idea. I mean, really, you really want to be loved for who you actually are? In a way, yes. We want to never be criticized. We want just someone to welcome us as a full, you know, wondrous creature. And of course, no one can, because that is asking too much. But we're so bad at hearing feedback, and we're so bad at giving feedback. Normally, this happens at, you know, 12:00 in the kitchen when the dishes are, uh, need to be done, and and and people are a bit tetchy, and they throw vicious words at one another because they're frustrated. And then those vicious words, um, give birth to other vicious words. And it, you know, you get into these terrible cycles. Often, you'll get couples who are trying to teach each other really important lessons, but they're not speaking them properly, and they're not listening to them properly. So major opportunities to grow are missed, and our pride gets in the way.
So tell us, how, how do we give a missive feedback better?
I think one of the things we do is to accept that it is entirely legitimate to see relationships as arenas in which we learn about ourselves and deliver knowledge to the other person about who they are. But that we have to do it very, very carefully. And it's, but it's, there's nothing illegitimate about that. Because I think the notion of, you know, "I, you know, I had to break up with my partner because they didn't accept me for who I am." And normally people will clap at this point and go, "Brilliant, you, you got out of a terrible relation." And, you know, I'm not discounting that could be, that could be a difficult relationship. But it could also be that that the, um, non-acceptance captures something important that needs to be listened to. To be endorsed for everything one is isn't love. I mean, that's, um, I don't know, a kind of a euphoric demand for approval that that breaks all, you know, respectable boundaries. But it also means we're rigid. "Accept me for who I am." That's right. Means I'm not going to change for anybody. How unsafe and toxic is that?
Absolutely. So, so two people need to accept that they are flawed. I mean, you know, the ability, the ability to go through life, and we're big on this at the School of Life, to actually say, "I'm a flawed human being." Um, you know, Christianity used to emphasize this point, but because it was associated with lots of things about Christianity that were then quite dark and discounted, etcetera, it's not a way of thinking that's popular in in the modern world. But the notion that, you know, we are all sinners. Right? You say that nowadays, people go, "Oh, ad, you mean sinners? I'm not a sinner. I'm fine. I'm I'm okay. I'm beautiful." Um, it's quite a good starting point to go, you know, "Look, we're all a bit broken in some way, and that's okay. It's okay to be broken. We're just trying to, you know, fix ourselves." Um, and and that that's okay. So it's a better starting point. And it, and it's particularly useful in relationships because it breaks what could otherwise be a kind of cycle.
Of defensiveness, and I think defensiveness is the great enemy of, um, communication, growth in friendship, and in relationships. So, can you take us through the steps then, Alan, about how, if you're listening to this, you're thinking, in my relationship, I want to start to explore, I want to receive and to give feedback and to accept each other? Yeah, tell us how we do that.
I think a really useful question to ask on a date, you know, you go out on a date with your partner, um, uh, and you say, this could sound a bit odd, um, how have I annoyed you recently? I, I probably annoyed you. How, how do you think I've annoyed you? Um, and to be able to listen to the answer without going, "That's not true! That's not true!" You, but you've annoyed me, you know, not to do any of that. Simply to listen. And, you know, therapists are good at teaching us this, to reflect back. So, someone goes, "You know, I'm annoyed because every time I mention a friend, you somehow find something wrong with a friend." And rather than going, "That's not true, I really like all your friends," to go, "Okay, so I'm hearing that you don't think I give your social choices enough approval." And the person goes, "Wow, I'm, I'm, I've actually been heard. I've actually been understood." Brilliant. You just rephrase what they've told you without butting in and saying, you know, "I'm a good person." You allow yourself to tolerate the notion that you've made a mistake, that, you know, that this is difficult for you.
So, what do we do to warm ourselves up to be able to hear that and to reframe it without letting our own ego get in the way or our own fragility on to defend ourselves? Look, it's partly a leap of faith. And, and of course, once you've done one round of this, and so they've done it for you, and you've done it for them, that becomes very much easier to do the second round. Um, and then, you know, another useful exercise is to say, um, you know, what for each person to say, "What is it about my background that's made something difficult for me?" You know, "What's made it difficult for me that, you know, the duvet cover is never properly on the bed? What's made it difficult for me that, you know, you come home late and, you know, and I get angry?" You know, to try and explain, because so often we're not very generous in our explanations, both to ourselves and to the other person, about why difficult behaviors occurred. But there's almost always a poignant backstory. Um, but we were unable to deliver it properly to the other person 'cause we're so on edge and we're so angry. And, you know, so, so to be able to give that backstory is another gift, both to ourselves and the other person. And, you know, at the end of the day, the more backstories are shared in a, in a calm way, the more everybody emerges as worthy of love. Of course, they do. Of course, they do. It's the lack of a backstory that, um, that always brings out, you know, anger and, and cruelty.
Why are we not teaching people to have these conversations earlier on? You know, I'm 44, right? I've been married, well, I've been with my wife, we met very young, so nearly 25 years together. No one's ever said to me, "Try asking your wife, 'What have I done that's annoyed you? What about me isn't great?'" You know, those sorts of conversations. This work on our relationship, the fact that marriage and, you know, long-term relationships take effort and time and care and humility. And look, I, I'd say the answer is, um, that we haven't valued as a society, um, good relationships and flourishing, perishing, um, highly enough. And, you know, we really value that people don't have car crashes, and that's why there's an enormous industry around trying to prevent car crashes. We don't have such precautionary views around, you know, relationships. We just don't. So, I, I think that you looked at slightly cynically, we don't care enough. And because we don't care enough, we, we, we don't put enough effort in. So, there are some people, you're, your listeners, you know, others who do care very much, and they'll be starting to invest in this. Maybe we don't know how amazing our relationships could be as well. I, I, I think that's true. I think that's true. I think there's maybe, uh, almost a kind of sunk cost fear that, that, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm 20 years into this, it's been really difficult. The thought that it could be better is actually, you know, quite frightening. And let's not forget that, you know, if you've had a life where your safe place has been, "People don't understand me, I'm isolated," and there's a lot of conflict, if that's what, you know, and you're built to handle that situation 'cause you throw yourself into your work, you, you have quite a cynical view of others, you don't put much trust. You know, you're built for that. You're built for that kind of conflictual situation. Somebody comes along and goes, "You know what? You could be close to another human being. You could let them in. You could lower your guard, and it could be okay." Um, one level, you think, "Brilliant." Another level, it's a disaster. It's like, "Well, I've been leading the wrong life." So, there's sometimes an investment in, um, continuing down patterns of of unhappiness or, um, a kind of, uh, angry defensiveness because it's, it's worked well for you in the past.
So, can we change the way this world operates? Can we change people's thinking about being employed and their idea of freedom? Can we change our children attaching their happiness to, um, being a YouTube star? Can we change people when they start their careers thinking they will only be happy when they earn a certain salary or buy a certain house? Like, can we change this? Uh, yes and no. But I, I sense by the impatience of your question, which is an impatience I've been through a lot, but I think slightly outgrown. I think one can spend a long time looking for a cockpit and in the cockpit looking for a button that will change the world and think, "I press that thing, everything will, you know, happen." There isn't. I think the way to think about it is, you know, there's a giant river of humanity, and all of us are standing by the side of the river, and we can put a few things in it. We can, we can get our picture of whatever our special juice is that we want to put in that river, and we will change in some way the current and texture of the, the river of humanity. But it's not in the power of anyone, even the most powerful human on the planet, to magically change the world. We want all of us, we, we massively exaggerate our powers. All of us are very fragile, evanescent beings. You know, we're, we're not, you know, the most powerful human on Earth today has got a very limited capacity to change humanity. It's, it's a broad river that kind of sweeps along, and it does its own thing. If we can just change a tiny bit of the riverbank, you know, it's slightly adjust something or slightly change the the turbulence or quality of the water as it as it makes its way down through time, we will have done well. And, and that's okay. That's okay. So, you know, you're running this lovely podcast, um, that's your contribution at the moment to humanity, and, and that's okay. And, you know, a certain number of people will listen. As a certain number of people also, we never quite know our impact on others. You know, that's the other odd thing. You can, you can have a three-minute conversation with somebody that you forget about instantly, and they'll remember it for the next 50 years, and it will have, you know, huge consequences. So, we can never quite know. So, a certain amount of modesty. But, you know, I think I know that feeling. You get up in the morning, go, "Nothing's changing. It's all, it's all, you know."
Can I pick up a word that you used at the start? That answer there, though, Alan, where you spoke about patience or impatience? And when I was reading your book, I, I was reminded of some research I'd read from, um, the author Brad Stulberg and Steve Magnus, where they spoke about research about the perfect fit mindset. And they said, in our society, we assume that when we meet somebody, if they're going to be like a long-term partner, we should feel fireworks right away. When we start a job, we should be hugely passionate about it right away. And if it's not, we often walk away from it or abandon the relationship. When, if we were patient and gave it time, it could possibly foment into something that does last a while. I'm interested in what have you learned about developing patience and giving something time, whether it's to explore an emotion or to stick with something even when it feels initially uncomfortable? And what are the benefits of doing that?
I think one of the things I've learned is that, um, self-awareness, you know, is, is by necessity a very, very slow process. And I think particularly if you're writing, you often want to get to the point, um, very quickly, and it's very frustrating. You think, uh, something I want to say, etc. Sometimes the best way to work is to stop working, for example. And, and it's good, seem like a very local example, but I think there's a bigger lesson in that. Sometimes the way in which you're really developing your ideas is to go and stare out of the window and look at the clouds passing. It doesn't look like work. Or go for a walk. Um, I think sometimes the mind is is working things out at its own pace and is pushing you towards choices and decisions that you don't really know, you can't know from maybe a long time why something happened. But it, it, you know, it might be next week, next month, in five years, you think, "Oh, okay. I'm starting to see why that thing took place." There was a deeper logic that was hidden from me at the time that's now becoming apparent. So, I think the ability to be a little bit patient, to realize that you can't just step into your mind like there's a trapdoor and you can just go in with a torch and just say, "You know, who am I? What should I do? What should I make best choices?" Um, you, you might need to know yourself by bumping into bits of life, um, and working out where, where the edges of the room are, what the contours of your own personality are. You can't get there in one go. And that's, in a way, a little bit dispiriting, um, because we want an instant solution. But once you can set yourself up for that, um, yeah, greater relief can come.
I think, talking of relief, you've, you've described mental breakdowns as this quest for knowledge. M, could you explain that in a bit more detail for us?
Well, sometimes we think that, um, we can know ourselves without pain. But I think, um, we might need at points to have a certain amount of crises that alert us to things that we wouldn't be ready for until our pain reached a certain threshold. That, that we're, we're simply, um, uninclined to think properly about situations until they, they boil over. It would be lovely if we, if that wasn't necessary, but I think in some cases, it really is necessary. It's only when something, um, goes quite wrong, and that's why sometimes, you know, illnesses of the mind or the body are moments where people think, "Okay, something, something's not right." And actually, if I'm honest, it's not been right for a while. I've been in pain for a while. And, you know, I've mentioned the word mania and manic a few times. It's an interesting word. The idea of being in a manic state where you can't bear to look inside because there's something a little bit confronting, and you use external activity. Work is a brilliant one, but it could be exercise, it could be family life, it could be pornography, alcohol, whatever you like, something that keeps you away from you until such times you can no longer do it anymore because there is some sort of, uh, crisis that forces you back on yourself and leads you to ask, "Okay, what am I really trying to do here? What's gone? What's not working at all? Let me be honest with myself."
Have you been there?
I've been there. I've been there for over small and large things, I'd say. Um, and I think that's why I'm very alert to sort of to how long it can take and how humble one has to be, um, over a life. Um, I wish, I wish there were a straight path that you could just kind of say, "Okay, that's what, that's what I need to do. That's where I'm going to go." You know, I, I think life is made up of a number of necessary crashes, um, uh, which, which, you know, it's the whole thing of using a car crash, using using the crisis, as it were, to, um, to develop your your insight.
So, what steps can you highlight or advocate for anyone listening to this that maybe that resonates with them? They realize they've been dissociating the feelings and they're filling it with activity to avoid us having to have our own version of a car crash? How do we avoid that?
What, well, look, I'm a, I'm a great fan of therapy. But let me also say that, um, many, many therapists are very substandard. And so, you know, if there are listeners out there who go, "I tried that thing and it was, it was no good," well, keep going. It's like love, you know, you can try it a lot, and it remains a useful thing to aim for. But it's very hard to find the right person or a person who, you know, is going to be right for you. So, um, but really, what we mean by therapy is, um, time and, uh, committed space in which to explore, not just to live, but explore how you're living. You know, "Why did I get angry that day? What am I feeling right now?" You know, sometimes it can be done with another person, can also be done alone, to carve out time for a therapeutic reflection on your own life. And to say, "Okay, even a very simple question, what am I feeling right now?" Just, just give yourself a bit of time every day. We go, "What's coming up for me? What's, what's on the agenda?" It, it could sound childishly simple. What, you know, "What do you mean, what's on the agenda?" But just shut your, your eyes, sit in a room on your own, and say to yourself, "What's coming up for me now? What, you know, what's?" And, and it could be, yeah, you normally, by the way, the answer is there waiting for you, just behind the door. You know, it's there waiting for you. Just open the door, and you'll realize, "I know what it is. It's that argument I had with, you know, X at 11:00." You know, now it's maybe 7:00 at night, something, but that argument is still vivid, and there's something in it. And then you say, "Okay, right, well, what was it about that thing? What is it that's disturbing me? What is it that's sad?" Or it could be something happened. Let's not always skew it towards the negative. Could be, you know, there was something so amazing when I walked out of of the house this morning, the trees, the light, there's some promise about that day. And you're like, "Okay, right, well, what is it? Let's, let's try and unpack it. What was that excitement? What was it? What can you learn from it? How can, how can a bigger theme emerge from that?" You know, all of us are unbelievably sensitive machines that throw up a huge amount of data. And, you know, what we do with most, most the data? Stick it in the bin. We just, we just chuck it all away. We are a, we register every day so much in an average five-minute conversation with a stranger, in an hour of going for a walk, or whatever, you will think more thoughts that are in the average library. You know, there are our brains are so rich, but we don't do them the honor of exploring them. We don't sit with our thoughts long enough to unpack them. And, um, and if we did, and and someone someone go, "Well, you know, I've not, I'm not schooled in this. I've not, I've not been, you know, I've not been to university. I don't know how to do that." Well, it's got nothing to do with that. You know, we are all wonderfully well-equipped to look inside at what we're feeling. Just literally ask yourself, "What are you feeling? What are you feeling right now? What are you feeling right now?"
Um, terrifically honored to be with you guys. It's, it's lovely. I've written this book, you know, I've been on my own for a long time, you know, writing it, and lovely to have a conversation. So, I feel, I feel honored. I don't, I don't know you guys deeply. I know your voices and I know your approach, but I don't, you know, I'm first time I'm in this chair, and that's a lovely feeling. So, broadly, I'm, I'm chuffed. Um, but, but I'd also say that I won't really fully know what I've been feeling for a while. Yeah, it, feelings take time to emerge. And again, giving it time. You know, but again, yeah, just come back to the idea, our brains are wonderful machines. We don't treat them right. We don't give them the space they need. We don't get to know them compassionately enough. We're curious enough. And that's why we run into so many mental problems and disorders. And we're going to move on to our quick fire questions now. But before we do that, after all of the things that we've spoken about, I think I think what I need to know from you is, should we be aiming for happiness? My fear with happiness, if that's what we're aiming for, is that it's inevitable that happiness comes and goes. I've, I'm trying to find acceptance rather than happiness, 'cause I think that whether you're happy or sad, whether up or down, acceptance. Yeah.
I see where you're coming from. I like the word fulfillment. Yeah, because fulfillment, you could have a fulfilling life, but be in a pretty bad mood quite a lot of the time. You could be F, have a fulfilling life, but actually things have gone wrong today. Because it suggests to me a goal that is quite compatible with reversals, with with difficult moves, with difficult stages. There is something about the word happiness that is maybe a little bit brittle. It, it suggests that unhappiness means that one has failed. And I think that, you know, the human mind is, is, you know, we are glass half empty creatures. And we shouldn't beat ourselves up about that. There are good evolutionary reasons why we're glass half empty creatures. You know, the glass half full ones all got eaten somewhere, you know, thousands of years ago. So, we are the heirs of the great warriors of our species, the ones who, the ones who did wake up in the morning noticing, you know, things were difficult. And that's all right, so long as we're properly focused and, um, and we have a kind of philosophy, uh, where problems can be contributing to to a good life. I think none of us need a perfect life. We need a life where the difficulties we run into make sense within our a wider conception of what we're doing here on Earth. That's what we need.
What incredible value. We're now going to move to our quick fire questions. And the first one is, the three non-negotiable behaviors that are important to you.
Kindness has to be the top of the list. Um, thereafter, thoughtfulness, because that's so reassuring in oneself and in another person. Thoughtfulness, um, and thirdly, laughter, which is a sign that one's properly understood how absurd one is within the broader context of things.
Great. What's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received and why?
I think, um, the best piece of advice is probably around, um, the necessity of choice and every choice requiring sacrifice. So, whatever you choose, it means you're not choosing something else, and therefore you can't have it all. And therefore, regret is not some personal curse. It's part of the human condition. You will be regretting certain things. That's okay. Welcome to, welcome to the planet. That's all right.
Are we adding to the toxic narrative around success by calling our podcast the high performance podcast?
I think if you quickly nuance it, uh, it, it can be the starting point for a really interesting conversation. So, um, to use a slightly cliché or or or aggressive phrase, but then turn it, is I think quite a clever thing to do.
Very good. If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why?
Look, I think the adolescent me was very troubled and, um, very alone. And I think more than trying to remove the problems, to simply say, "These problems, uh, have a long tail and a long future, and it's all right. You'll learn to put these to use." The trick is not to have a problem-free life. It's to have a life where your problems contribute to something interesting.
Are you happy today?
Yes. Tomorrow, no. Yesterday, probably not. But I'm broadly on a good day, fulfilled.
What's your greatest strength and your biggest weakness?
My greatest strength is my ability to unpack feelings. I think give me a feeling and I'll get to work on it, try and work out what's going on in it. So, I think that's probably my greatest strength. Greatest weakness, um, anxiety. And behind anxiety, fear. Too much that, um, everything, uh, I'm a catastrophist. Um, and so everything is always on on the verge of turning into the worst version of itself.
I am that as well, but I actually have worked out in my head that maybe that's actually a positive thing, and it's probably kept me safe.
If you were a true catastrophist, you wouldn't think that. You'd think it was just a catastrophe.
That's true. So, I think, I think you're, you're not a Jedi, are you? Are you a Jedi?
Level? Yes. 100%. 100%. 100%.
So, how does that? I'm interested in how, how does that manifest itself in your life and how, how do you control it or manage that emotion?
Kind people around me have tried to point this out to me. I think I don't trust situations. I don't trust that that things can be okay. I'm learning to. And I know how to do this for other people, but I find it hard to do for myself. And I think that it can lead to, um, cutting yourself off unfairly from possibilities. And, you know, there is something about, um, a dark prognosis that, that, you know, you can, you can end up making it happen when it doesn't need to happen.
How old are you?
How old am I? 53.
I think that's actually a really powerful thing though, to admit that you're still searching for answers at the age of 53. Because there'll be a lot of people that listen to this that think, "Wow, I wish I was Alan de Bot. He's got it all sorted. He knows the answers to everything." And I think it's important to say that that's not, of course.
Yes. And I think, um, absolutely. I mean, hopefully, is it something that emerges from your show? Maybe I think it, maybe it's something you could bait right into it. I mean, if anyone claims to know what on Earth's going on, um, they need their head examined. I mean, it's a sign that they're not really wrestling with enough of the problems, or they're not being honest with you. Of course, we're all still at the very beginning of trying to work out what's going on.
And our final question. Yeah, your one golden rule that you would like to leave our listeners with for living a high performance life.
Kindness to yourself and to others. And what really, what I mean by that is, um, kindness to accept that you may be stranger and more complicated than you bargained with. Um, and, uh, you're going to be kind enough to the world to make an accommodation for that. And you're going to, you're going to work on yourself so that you are, you know, not going to cause too much damage to those who have to come into contact with you. And that's again for everybody, work in progress.
Alan, thank you so much. What a fascinating conversation.
Thank you. Thanks so much.