Transcription
The flow state comes only when you work on it. If applied in practice, a person can achieve this state of happiness, a state of satisfaction and engagement when they are involved in something. Everything else ceases to matter. Those who can find, or rather create, meaning for themselves seem to reach any goal.
A question arises: does this mean that ordinary people, like us, are not destined to experience this flow? Modern geniuses are not just those who receive something from above, one in a million. It is likely something that can be trained and worked on. A person has the opportunity, at least, to meaningfully reach this state to create and generate something interesting in this world. Then you step back and think, "Oh, I could do that? I want to do it again," because it is much more fulfilling than forcing yourself to work.
Regarding the workaholism you mentioned, through achievement, first, we need to determine our path, our purpose, or mission—how we can live our best lives. Second, we must learn to concentrate and focus on this activity. The activity itself holds more significance than everything else, including the result.
There are even more interesting tasks that immerse you faster into the flow. Naturally, the flywheel spins faster, and you grow more quickly. If we talk about the corporate sector, or if it’s about business, you achieve your tasks faster while feeling happy and needed. When you feel you have your missions, goals, tasks, and so on, as my husband likes to joke, he says, "I think you would pay people just to conduct training and consultations."
[Music]
I am pleased to introduce our guest, an accredited business trainer at PricewaterhouseCoopers on leadership, mentoring, and business coaching, Agila Ala. Welcome!
Thank you very much for the invitation. I am very glad to see you on our podcast.
Thank you, I am also happy to be here.
Today, we plan to discuss a complex but very important topic: flow. Earlier, we recorded a podcast with another guest named Osman, where we discussed emotional intelligence. In that podcast, we mainly talked about how to use emotional intelligence in personal life. We touched a bit on the corporate sector, and I shared my example. But today, I would like to talk more about how to use the flow state to achieve greater results.
Before we start, I would like to perhaps clarify that the topic of flow is very important, but many people have somewhat devalued it. We should probably touch on this a bit, as the concept of flow is often misunderstood. Flow is a state of inspiration when a person enters a certain state, and new ideas, projects, or thoughts emerge, and they are ready to implement them.
That’s roughly how it is. If we already know how to apply flow, it can be used as inspiration. However, there is a complex definition of flow presented in the book by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. It describes flow as a state of mind when a person is completely immersed and focused on a specific activity. In simpler terms, a person is focused on doing something or is passionately engaged in an activity, and this activity captivates them so much that they forget everything else.
In short, flow is about that.
Regarding your comments about the devaluation of the term, I agree. In my training sessions, I often use the phrase "not a pop approach to flow." To understand what this is about, we should touch on the author, who he is, how this theory emerged, and why it is called that.
To jump ahead, I will say that the author, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, is considered the father of positive psychology. Psychologists and coaches refer to him as the author of positive psychology. He lived in the 20th century and, unfortunately, passed away recently. He was a person who did not follow trends, which is why he named his theory as it is now widely used, not only in the corporate sector but also in private life.
What is flow? We are used to hearing these three phrases: "in the flow," "in the moment," and "in the resource." Because of this, the term has been devalued, as people have stopped understanding or do not want to learn what lies behind it. Csikszentmihalyi named his theory this way because that is how his respondents described their state during his research. It was not his whim; he named his theory and book this way only because people provided him with such feedback.
So, this is not just a book; it is the result of extensive research conducted over a long period. This research took about 20 years from start to finish. This is a significant amount of time, which is why the book has been translated into many languages and has resonated everywhere.
The research involved respondents from different social classes, nationalities, income levels, beliefs, and worldviews. While I cannot say it included all countries, it did cover a wide range.
The study began with a simple question: why are some people happy while others are not? We often think that if we have a lot of money, we will be happy. We might buy a luxury car and travel to the Canary Islands every week. There is a fascinating study you can find online that shows the correlation between happiness and income. Interestingly, over 15 or 20 years, income has tripled for the average American, yet the level of happiness has remained the same.
After this discovery, Csikszentmihalyi and his group began to ponder what truly makes people happy. They started conducting interviews with people who worked not for money—artists, for example. We know many examples of people who sacrificed everything for their art, living in poverty but creating masterpieces. When they were interviewed, they all spoke about how, during the time they were creating, everything else ceased to matter.
They then expanded their research to include creative individuals who already had money—businessmen, top managers, and successful artists. For them, money was a given; it was a basic need. They approached their work with the same mindset: when they were engaged in their activities, everything else ceased to matter.
As researchers, they realized that these individuals also experienced a similar state. However, the catch is that not all of us can be great researchers, engineers, or artists. Let’s be honest; most of us are average people living standard lives. This raises the question: does this mean that ordinary people like us are not destined to experience flow?
They began conducting research among ordinary people. This was back in the 1980s when pagers were still in use. The research took about 20 years to complete. This is a long time, which is why the book has resonated so widely.
The study involved respondents from various backgrounds, and the results showed that people who engaged in activities they loved and were passionate about experienced happiness. It turns out that for flow to occur, people must put in effort. There is a cognitive dissonance when people think that they just need to wish for something, and it will magically happen.
The key to achieving flow is to work hard, and the return from this state is immense. It increases your productivity and sense of happiness, self-sufficiency, and internal recognition. But it is not about some light from above; it is primarily about understanding your strengths, recognizing your weaknesses, and being able to discipline yourself to take step-by-step actions.
Flow comes only when you work on it. In one of my podcasts, I asked a guest, "Do we really have to work hard to earn happiness?" This raises an interesting point.
You mentioned the book, and I want to interject briefly. This book is very well-known as a result of this 20-year research, and I want to highlight that it is a bestseller. Most people know this book, but in our country, I have spoken to many people who are not familiar with it. I mention this because it is a valuable source of knowledge. It is not just a theory; if applied in practice, a person can achieve that state of happiness, satisfaction, and engagement.
You will probably discuss this later, but the activity itself will be the reward.
I understand why this happens. When I read the book, I had to approach it from different angles to finish it. If you remember, we met during one of your training sessions. I did not agree with everything—well, not with everything, but with some points, and I argued with the author. There is a lot of terminology in the book, and at the time, it seemed difficult. Now, looking back, I see that most of it is interesting.
I want to ensure that today, in our podcast, we explain things as simply and clearly as possible. We cannot replace the entire book with our podcast, but at least we can explain the basic points. I believe that if you have not read this book, please listen to this podcast until the end because I personally believe that a person can achieve all their goals and realize any dream. They just need to take action and first acquire the necessary knowledge, then apply it in practice.
I completely agree with you. I just want to briefly comment on why the book is difficult to read. It is indeed written in a complex language. It is much easier to write than to speak. Now, imagine a person who has spent their entire life in academia. When they speak, if you look at their old recordings, they always try to simplify their language, but it is still very complex.
Now, consider that he wrote this in a language that was not his native tongue, so naturally, it became more complicated in translation. I completely agree with you about why people are not very interested in reading it; they need to delve into it. We will try to explain things in simple language today, so if something is unclear, please feel free to ask for clarification.
So, can you tell us about the practical application of flow? Where can it be applied, and how? Because, as I mentioned earlier, I am a practical person. I read books out of necessity or for the subject I am currently studying or for a specific goal. Everything that can be applied in practice to achieve set goals is what I focus on.
How can we apply flow? In most cases, I believe that you mentioned the pop success or the successful success. In my opinion, true success is not just about what we achieve or receive during our development, but about who we become.
From my perspective, success is about who we become because everything we acquire materially and the people we interact with change us. If we look at this journey, there is the "I" who is going through this journey, and he is gradually changing.
In what direction is he changing? For the better or for the worse? Ultimately, who will I become? Does this make me stronger or not?
I agree. That is a very deep philosophical thought. I probably won’t delve too deeply into it now, or we will stray from the topic of flow.
Regarding practical application, we can read as many books as we want. We can know all the theories in the world, but if we do nothing, it will be meaningless.
Let me ask you a question: can you recall any moment in your life when you were doing something—whether it was work-related or a personal project, big or small—and it felt like only 5 or 10 minutes had passed, but when you looked at the clock, 5 hours had gone by?
Have you ever experienced that?
Rarely, but it happens.
Yes, I often hear this from book lovers. They open a book, especially if it’s by a favorite author, and suddenly they realize that three hours have passed, and they haven’t responded to anyone’s messages.
Or I often hear from people who build models or teenagers who assemble Lego. They can go without eating or drinking because they are so focused on completing the model that they cannot think of anything else.
That is the flow state. The catch is that we usually enter this state by chance. It just happens, the stars align. But it can be practiced.
When the research was conducted, it was determined that people feel happy when they are engaged in activities they love. The research did not stop there; they identified eight states of mind during a person's activity.
There are different states ranging from apathy and boredom to anxiety and other feelings. I would like to ask you to show the graph from the book that describes these eight states, including the flow state.
There are actually two correlations: the level of task difficulty and the level of your skill. In simpler terms, it’s about how hard it is to do something and how skilled you are at it.
The flow state begins where these two factors meet in balance. For example, if I am drawing a picture and it takes me three years to draw a circle, that will be a very challenging task for me. Initially, I might cry like a child and say, "I can’t do it! Mom, help me!" I will feel frustration or panic because I lack the knowledge and skills to draw that circle.
Then, after two years in kindergarten, I learn to draw circles quickly. At some point, I might find it boring to draw circles. The same thing happens in the corporate world.
When we transfer this to business, people want to grow. When they first arrive, they are nervous and anxious because they know nothing. Especially if they are fresh graduates, they still have a lot to learn.
Then they learn, and at the moment they become proficient at something, they have enough knowledge for the task, and the task becomes interesting. They do everything well, but then you notice that the person starts to slack off.
All the owners or managers usually say, "Well, this person was doing great, but now something is off." They become bored because, roughly speaking, they have outgrown their tasks. They are no longer challenging.
Our task is to practice flow by working on our skill level. This means working on ourselves, gaining knowledge, and applying it in practice. Alongside this, we should constantly seek more challenging tasks and throw ourselves new challenges.
This is about applicability. When you mentioned that you have been working in a company for three or five years, and it has all become routine, it is only the beginning. When it becomes uninteresting, it is also an emotional component. Our energy drops, and as you said, everything becomes gray.
As an employee, I have a choice: either I continue living like this, not growing, and my financial situation does not improve, or I take the initiative to take on new, interesting, and challenging projects.
This is another question of how to apply the flow state. If I am an employer or a leader of a large company, I am also responsible for productivity. If I see that productivity is declining, it means motivation is decreasing.
By applying the theory of flow, I can increase productivity. Interestingly, when I studied emotional intelligence, I learned that it involves recognizing and managing your emotions and recognizing and managing others' emotions.
I always found it a bit off-putting because it seemed like manipulation. But I recently heard an interesting definition: if you manipulate others for your own benefit, that is considered manipulation. However, if you have common goals as a company or team, and as a leader, you correctly align the team, that is not manipulation.
This is a crucial point. When you manage emotions for the benefit of the team, it is not manipulation. This is indeed a part of business training and leadership programs.
It is essential to remember the ethical dilemma involved. There are many different puzzles on this topic, where you don’t know which way to send the train.
It is important to understand that in any activity, in managing your emotions or others' emotions, there is a fine line that can completely affect a person. This is where the explanation comes in, which HR and leaders will provide.
Why are all these crazy motivational programs created? Why is corporate culture built? Why are competency models developed? It is to filter out the wrong people.
If you have a team leader whose personal qualities are not ethical, their line will be narrower than for someone whose values align with the company’s values. They will genuinely manage their team’s emotions to help them reach the goals they set, so the entire team can receive bonuses at the end of the year and everyone can be happy.
Returning to the topic of flow, if we talk about the corporate world, achieving flow is actually easier than in personal life. Why? Because, as you will read in the book or listen to this podcast, certain conditions must be met for flow to occur.
The stars must align, and there are seven points, three of which are essential in the corporate sector. If we want to be in this state ourselves and bring our colleagues or subordinates closer to it, we must remember that three conditions must be met.
One is clear goals. You must know exactly what you need to do today, whether it’s composing a piece or painting a picture.
The second point is immediate feedback. What is immediate feedback? For example, you are working on a report. You look at your report, and it is improving right before your eyes.
The third point is that the activity itself is more important than everything else, including the result. This is a crucial point because when your employees do something and do not understand the logic behind it—like why they are writing this report—there will be no flow state.
If I understand that the numbers in my report will affect a decision made by another department, which will then decide on new product lines and pass it to marketing, and if I realize that my work is essential, and I enjoy it, I will naturally enter the flow state.
That’s why I touched on the topic of HR. To be honest, using flow as a tool is not for every organization. In my opinion, it is a good tool in companies where people are the key resource.
When there is real value, when people know they can express their opinions or disagree with their leader without fear of being fired, they can sit down and talk openly.
This is especially true for small and medium-sized businesses. There is a great saying: the smaller the company, the more the CEO says, "This is how it is."
If the theory and these tools resonate with the first leader in a small business, they will likely take root in that small company. We have examples of dream teams in small organizations where people do not leave because the team is fantastic, and they have a great boss. They do their work with genuine pleasure.
If the first leader in a small business does not resonate with this topic and thinks, "I was told in training that I need to apply this," it will likely come off as foolish.
It is essential to note that leaders or such people often lack a "why." They do not understand why they need to do this.
Entrepreneurs are all about numbers, especially leaders. When they see that the productivity level increases, they can save on bonuses.
When people work in a way that brings them satisfaction, it seems to me that the question is not about big or small bonuses. It is about the activity itself being enjoyable.
I am not advocating for this, but I mean that we need to reach a level where the question is not always about money. It is about the state of being.
Either you go to work in a bad mood and come home feeling down, or you are constantly inspired and in a good mood. This, as I mentioned earlier, affects your energy level.
When you come home, you still have energy to interact with family members, do interesting things, or play games with your children.
There are many benefits to this. When a person sees tools like flow or perhaps others, they can find and implement them in their companies.
I agree with you, and I will say right away that perhaps not everyone seeks the "why" because it is also related to generational changes.
If we look at the average age of leaders in small and medium-sized businesses, it is around 45 and older. These are people who have experience, who have failed once or twice, and who have built profitable businesses.
Why do they not seek the "why"? Because these are people who grew up in a different decade when achievement was valued.
If you look back 20 years, when we were younger and teenagers, we liked movies about Wall Street, where they worked 20 hours a day and saw nothing but work.
What is happening now? There are significant changes because the generation that is now growing up, Generation Z, is not ready to sacrifice their personal lives for a career.
Motivational programs and hiring practices are changing in all companies. This is not because they are worse than us; it is just a different generation with different values. They come in with a clear understanding of what they want from their employer.
There is even a trend now where people want time after work to play with their children, spend time with their spouses, go to the gym, or pursue hobbies.
It is not about coming home, eating, sleeping, and going back to work. What was once considered success—having the most expensive phone or car—is changing.
This change is likely closer to people of our generation and older, who are facing these shifts.
I won’t speak for everyone, but people in small businesses are those who feed themselves daily. They look at the numbers and assess how profitable it is.
This is why they may not seek the "why" and may not adopt all these tools. However, the world is changing, and time demands new approaches.
If we talk about motivating leaders to seek the "why," there is a moment related to productivity and flow.
In Mihaly's book, there is a vivid example of the activities of ordinary employees. We talked about how people who are engaged in activities they love do so with pleasure, which is great.
But let’s be honest: what percentage of interesting tasks do most employees have? It is often no more than 30%.
You might have three super interesting tasks or three great projects that excite you, but the rest will be the routine tasks you have to pull through every day, even if they are boring.
You cannot expect an employer to overwhelm you with ten interesting projects. This is the reality of life.
Mihaly describes this moment in his book using the example of factory workers in Mexico. I might be mistaken, but the essence is not important.
The point is that these workers have standardized jobs. They make certain parts, and it does not require much skill.
They have a norm for how many parts they should produce in a minute. He describes two examples: one worker does his job as required, while the other starts to think about how many parts he can produce in a minute.
He begins to produce faster and faster, eventually reaching a record of making one part in 27 seconds.
The norm is to produce one part in a minute or a minute and a half. He starts to produce faster, and at some point, he realizes he is doing it in 27 seconds.
He experiences constant interest and excitement. He runs to the machine, thinking, "How many seconds will it take me today?"
He constantly competes with himself, but the most interesting part is the indirect effect this has on his development.
At some point, this worker realizes he will reach his peak sooner or later. He understands that he cannot produce a part in one second.
He realizes that he cannot come up with more interesting tasks for himself. When he understands this, he enrolls in evening courses to become an engineer.
This is a shift not about making more money but about expanding his opportunities.
He signs up for courses to pass the exam and move into the engineering and technical staff, which is a middle management position at the factory.
This is an indirect effect of the flow state.
If we talk about ourselves as individuals, if I want to be better, as you said, I need to manifest initiative in various ways.
I can either protest for more or increase my competitiveness through automation or gamification.
I can turn my routine into a competitive challenge. This is one of the examples described in the book.
On one hand, I do not spend so much time thinking about how I am doing some boring work that seems pointless.
On the other hand, if I am an employee of a company, I need to work until the end of the month to get paid.
How do I get through to the end of the month? Do I do it with interest and engagement, or do I do it with a bad attitude?
This is our choice. We must take responsibility for our actions and say, "Yes, we can change our attitude toward our work."
If we are leaders of a company or business owners, we have two paths.
The first is traditional. This is a serious point because we have all been taught that hard work is good.
We believed that if we worked late into the night or on weekends, it was commendable.
We can reach our goals this way, but we may end up broken, with no health left, and we will have money or something else, but we will lack happiness, health, and strong relationships.
The second path is to use flow or other tools to reach our goals.
We will still get there eventually, but with different resources and at a different level.
I think this is very important.
What you are saying is essentially the research and the book. They began with Mihaly's question: why do some people find happiness in life while others do not?
Some find reasons and meanings to be happy after the destruction of World War II, while others say it is all over and see no reason to rejoice or live.
Many died because they could not find meaning.
I will step away from the topic for a moment, but there is another great author, Edith Eger, who describes her experiences in a concentration camp.
She has two books, "The Gift" and "The Choice," and she essentially writes about the same principles as Frankl.
In her books, she explains why those who survived in the concentration camp were not the physically strong but those who found meaning in their terrible lives.
Even fragile people survived the horrors.
In another podcast, we discussed Friedrich Nietzsche, who said, "If you have a why, you can endure any how."
This is a subtle but crucial point for a person: the ability to find meaning for oneself.
Those who can find, or rather create, meaning for themselves seem to reach any goal.
We talk about goals because, again, regarding successful success, we are used to achieving something.
My philosophy is that a goal is what we want to achieve, but we should think more about what we can give to this world, not just receive.
We come into this world, and if our level of thinking is at a medium level—hypothetically, we have not developed a scale—we will always think about what we can get.
Even the questions we ask are about what we want and what we want from the world.
We need to understand that we may need to satisfy our basic needs first, but then we should ask ourselves, "What can I give to this world?"
This is a bit off-topic, but it is all interconnected.
When a person finds meaning in determining what they can give to this world, they grow as an individual.
This is a transition from selfishness to service—living for others, for society.
Of course, we will receive something from this world; it is a kind of indirect effect.
When you do something well, passionately, whether it is creating parts or painting a picture, I am sure that when it is done with love, the result is felt differently.
The value becomes different.
You know, everything you are saying resonates with me, but as an ordinary person, I would think, "Here we go again, we have to serve someone, love someone, and so on."
It is usually difficult for us to perceive these words because there are no images in our minds.
Our brains are very practical, and I admit I am a bit of a skeptic by nature.
I love when everything has applicability. I do not like slogans because I believe that behind slogans, there are no actions.
I always ask my clients, with whom we work in coaching, to translate their tasks into actionable language.
For example, "Okay, what does it mean to serve for you?"
You say we need to serve, but what does that mean in actionable terms?
Why am I returning to this? Because in flow, there are indeed seven conditions for it to occur.
Everything you are saying is great, but it is often perceived as something that must happen to you over time or that something must change.
In reality, flow can be trained like a muscle.
If you train it, it will happen more often, and you will receive more returns.
As you mentioned, energy levels increase, and you feel happy.
When you are happy, you want to share that happiness with everyone.
This is how the momentum builds, and it starts to affect many areas of your life.
To enter the flow state, you mentioned seven main points.
Let’s see if I can remember and list them:
1. Clear goals—knowing exactly what you need to do.
2. Loss of ego—when the activity is more important than you.
3. Loss of sense of time—when you forget to eat or drink.
4. Full concentration on the activity—focusing on the task at hand.
5. The activity itself has intrinsic value, not just the end result.
6. Immediate feedback—seeing improvements in real-time.
Did I count six?
I didn’t count.
Okay, the seventh is that the activity itself is more important than everything else.
These seven conditions are things you can control.
You do not need to sit in a lotus position or meditate; you do not need any special knowledge or external help.
All these things depend solely on you.
You can choose one of these seven points as the most important.
You know, I always find it difficult to choose one, but I will say that for me, immediate feedback is very important.
Perhaps because of the nature of my work, when I conduct coaching consultations with my clients, I see that they come in feeling overwhelmed, and at some point, they say, "I understand what I need to do."
I see their eyes light up, and that is immediate feedback.
I understand that my work has been effective.
In that moment, I feel a huge surge of satisfaction and pride.
I may be tired, but when I feel that, I know I am charged to do more and better.
This is why I constantly seek to learn and attend courses.
In training sessions, I always try to address uncomfortable topics.
When I touch on sensitive issues, people realize that this is not just a checkbox for training; we can genuinely change something.
When they start to argue with me or share their pain, that is also immediate feedback.
I understand that they have opened up to me, and at that moment, everything else fades away.
I am 100% immersed in the training to help people solve their problems.
When you build trust, 99% of people do not want to conflict or let anyone down.
You cannot conduct a training just for the sake of it; you want to ensure that people leave with something useful.
For me, immediate feedback is probably the most important.
If you are interested, I can share what I would highlight from all seven points.
It is clear that ideally, all seven points should be present to fully experience the flow state.
However, I would first highlight concentration on the activity itself.
This is something that needs to be trained, as you mentioned.
The flow state or state of happiness can be trained.
This may overlap with what is called mindfulness.
Mindfulness is when we consciously enter a challenge or activity and manage our attention.
In most cases, about 90% of our day happens automatically, like riding a bike or driving a car.
Unfortunately, we sometimes go through a traffic light without even noticing.
This is an unconscious approach to life.
When we start to consciously engage in an activity, we realize that when we practice this, thoughts will start to arise and distract us.
We might think, "I need to do this," and then we switch to another task, losing productivity.
When you learn to train your focus, you will find that it is one of the significant factors in achieving success in life.
I believe there are two factors that can help us live wisely or achieve success.
The first is knowing what needs to be done.
As you mentioned, some things are cultivated, and we see them on TV or on our smartphones.
We see our neighbors and colleagues, and we take them as our goals or think we should live that way.
This is not always the case.
We need to expand our consciousness and understand that if we are born as humans, we can do more than just satisfy basic needs.
We can do something meaningful.
This requires exploration and practical testing.
We need to identify how we want to live our lives so that we do not regret it later.
We should seek the best path or scenario that leads us to the highest point or goal.
The second factor is the skill of concentration on the activity we have identified.
This is crucial because external factors will distract you.
Life, circumstances, and people will distract you.
You will find your path, but everything will distract you.
Of course, I want to add that when you step away from your usual behavior, there is a theory of circles.
You may have heard of it.
It states that when you change your direction, your circle becomes uncomfortable because everything was fine before.
Why are you changing things?
Naturally, people will start to distract you and even discourage you.
There is an interesting parable about crabs.
A fisherman has a bucket of crabs, and the bucket is not covered.
A passerby asks, "Why don’t you cover it? Your crabs will escape."
The fisherman replies, "I’m not worried. Look at them."
When the passerby looks, they see one crab trying to escape while the others pull it back down.
No one can escape the bucket.
This is similar to what we discussed.
First, we need to determine our path, our purpose, or mission—how we can live our best lives.
Second, we must learn to concentrate and focus on this activity.
As we mentioned earlier, there are external factors that distract us.
There is also an internal factor—our thoughts, which are like an internal dialogue.
We often do not notice them because we focus on them.
We think, "This is how it should be."
Some analogies are given, for example, when you turn on a fan.
At first, the noise is distracting, but after half an hour, you get used to it.
The same goes for thoughts; you get used to them, and they distract you from the activity you chose.
Successful people are successful because they first determine the niche or direction they want to pursue.
This involves market research, especially for entrepreneurs.
Second, they learn to focus.
No matter what happens around them, they have a work plan or strategy, and they stick to it.
They train their minds to stay focused despite external distractions.
I want to add that this point fits well with our routine activities.
These seven points are necessary for us to enter the flow state.
When we are in this state, we no longer have distractions.
The key is that when you enter this flow state, internal and external distractions fade into the background.
As I mentioned, you forget to eat or drink.
You remain fully engaged in the activity, and the flow state truly carries you away.
Your productivity increases significantly during this time.
However, to reach this state, as I said at the beginning, you need to work hard.
Focusing is crucial, as we saw in the example of the worker at the factory.
This is about being able to do your routine well every day.
There are countless techniques to help with this, from the Pomodoro technique to various prioritization matrices.
If you are interested, the Eisenhower Matrix works well for basic tasks.
I am all for using whatever helps you.
It does not matter what you believe in; what matters is that it works for you.
If you achieve results through these techniques, you will learn to focus and avoid external distractions.
This, in turn, will help you achieve the flow state.
That is why it is beneficial for routine tasks.
Interesting tasks naturally engage us, making it easier to achieve flow than through mundane or boring tasks.
Sometimes, there are situations at work where it is lunchtime, but no one leaves because they say, "I just need to finish this."
A person is so engaged that they do not even notice the time.
This is not the same as when you are under pressure from a deadline.
When you are under pressure, you may feel overwhelmed and need to step away.
This is normal; we should not confuse this with flow.
What you mentioned about concentration works well with routine tasks.
Interestingly, these routine tasks can push us into the flow state.
This creates a positive feedback loop.
When you enter the flow state, you do your work better, more interestingly, and more creatively.
Your management sees how you work and gives you more interesting tasks, which immerses you in flow even faster.
Naturally, this is how you grow faster, whether in the corporate sector or business.
You achieve your tasks more quickly while feeling happy and needed.
When you feel you have your missions, goals, and tasks, it is fulfilling.
I would like to quickly cover two questions.
First, you mentioned creativity. How does the flow state influence creativity?
This is important to me because we tend to work in routines, whether in production or consulting services.
The business processes are established, and everything runs smoothly.
However, I believe that companies or individuals who achieve great success do so not just by increasing production efficiency.
They do so by generating new ideas and taking unconventional approaches.
Creativity is essential.
How can we connect flow with creativity, and how does it help us?
From a leadership perspective, if you want your business to thrive, flow is a tool for leaders.
It is the fastest way to arrive at unconventional solutions.
The details of how this is done vary by company, depending on the internal culture and the company’s goals.
To apply flow, you must first understand how it works for you.
You need to experience it yourself.
It is a combination of interesting tasks and routine work.
By practicing both, you begin to enter the flow state.
The second step is to involve your employees by leading by example.
However, it is crucial to understand that what worked for you may not work for your employees.
This is why I said that flow will not be a tool for everyone.
You need to have enough desire to understand your employees well enough to know what will put them in a flow state.
If you can implement flow in the workplace, it can be beneficial.
If you have an employee who is just there temporarily, do not try to force them into a flow state.
Flow is not a panacea; it is one of the tools to motivate your team effectively.
As you mentioned, it can help develop unconventional approaches.
There are three conditions for flow to occur in the workplace:
1. Clear goals—employees must understand what they need to do.
2. Immediate feedback—employees need to understand the logic behind their tasks.
3. The activity itself must be more important than the money they receive for it.
This third point is about the leader’s ability to place team members in the right positions.
There is a great saying: "There are no perfect leaders, but there are perfect teams."
A good leader will assemble a team that plays well together and wins.
There is a great film called "Moneyball," starring Brad Pitt.
Many have seen it, and it beautifully illustrates leadership.
The leader takes responsibility and does not gather the best players; instead, he assembles average players who complement each other like a puzzle.
In the end, his principle becomes effective, and they rise to the top.
The same applies to flow.
You need to understand what will create flow for your employees.
It does not mean you need the most expensive specialist on the market; sometimes, an average specialist is enough.
You just need to place them in the right position and motivate them correctly.
This is a skill in team building.
You mentioned that not everyone will use these tools, and that is normal.
As a leader, if you own a business, it is crucial to filter out the wrong people.
This is much more important for small businesses than for large corporations.
In large companies, losing one cog may not affect the overall operation, but for small teams, it is vital.
If someone leaves, it can shake the system.
Using flow tools can help create a better working environment.
If you implement flow, your team will work better and replace members more smoothly.
There will not be a panic when someone leaves.
Regarding creativity, it is easier to achieve through flow because, in a flow state, there are no limitations.
When you enter this state, everything else ceases to matter, and you start to create.
Anyone who has experienced this state remembers how exhausting it can be.
Flow cannot last indefinitely; you cannot motivate an employee to be in flow for a year.
A person can be in flow for a short time, but when it ends, they feel exhausted.
They cannot speak or move; they just want to lie down and sleep.
This is similar to when you have a great experience, and then suddenly, it is gone.
You feel uncomfortable when you return to the mundane.
Thank you for this comment; it is a significant misconception.
It is often heard that living without flow is sad.
When you exit the flow state, you feel tired because your brain consumes 20% of all energy, even though it occupies a small area.
When you are in a flow state, your brain operates at maximum capacity, consuming all your resources.
You do not feel empty; that is a different feeling.
You may be tired, but when you recall how well you performed, you feel satisfied.
You might say, "I am exhausted, but it was great! I want to do it again."
This is much easier than forcing yourself to work.
The workaholism you mentioned, through achievement, is exhausting.
You tire from the thought alone, and then you tire from the work itself.
In flow, you exert effort at first, then you enter the state, and it carries you along.
You work efficiently, and when your battery runs low, you realize you are exhausted but satisfied with what you accomplished.
You feel fulfilled.
There is a study about brain function that states the left hemisphere is responsible for logic and analysis, while the right hemisphere is responsible for creativity.
When we constantly analyze and work, we primarily engage the left side of the brain, while the right side is less active.
When we focus on something, like an activity or meditation, the analytical mind takes a back seat, allowing the right hemisphere to generate ideas.
This is likely why geniuses achieve flow.
Many geniuses, like Einstein or Tesla, are not just one in a million; they can train and work on this state.
A person has the opportunity to meaningfully reach this state to create and generate something interesting in this world.
Absolutely right.
I want to add that what you said is very interesting.
I did not know that the right hemisphere activates when we focus.
This is likely why we enter the flow state.
I want to add one last thing: in my opinion, it is crucial to be honest with oneself.
Flow is a tool that cannot be faked.
You cannot deceive yourself into thinking you are in flow.
If you start lying to yourself, you cannot enter this state.
From a leadership perspective, if you understand that there are things you are not ready to acknowledge, that is okay.
We are all different, and it is essential not to stress too much if something does not work out.
I say this to prevent disappointment in the theory or technique.
When something does not work, we often dismiss it as nonsense.
However, if it resonates with your values, you can use this tool effectively.
It may not work immediately, but with practice, it will.
Another point I want to make is that when the activity itself brings satisfaction and serves as a reward, we do not wait for the outcome.
This is mentioned in other books, such as "Ikigai."
In Japan, there were musicians who played music throughout the day in the emperor's palace.
Often, there were no observers or listeners; they played for themselves.
Even if no one was there, they played at a high level.
These musicians were in a flow state, and the music itself was a reward.
This is a crucial point.
I see a significant problem with the midlife crisis, especially around ages 35 to 50.
This often occurs because we are motivated by what we lack.
When we achieve our goals, we lose the meaning of further actions or development.
Many people feel lost during this time.
This is what we discussed with our previous guest about marketing.
He used the term "cementing results."
People try to hold onto what they have achieved, and interest in life fades.
When we find our calling or dream job, as Confucius said, "Find a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life."
I believe this is a significant challenge we must solve for ourselves.
It does not matter if you are 30 or 25; the sooner you find work you love, the better.
When we learn to love what we do, it is a great skill.
We should not wait for the contract to be signed or the new project to be completed to feel fulfilled.
The process itself should engage us.
I think this is a skill we need to develop.
I slightly disagree with the expression, "If you find your favorite job, you will never work a day in your life."
This perspective can be misleading, especially for those who have been limited in resources and have not had the opportunity to see the world or receive a good education.
Many people fall into the trap of false expectations based on this philosophy.
I genuinely believe that if you engage in your hobby for eight hours a day, it will eventually become a burden.
I advocate for a realistic understanding that even in your favorite job, as we discussed, only about 30% of your work will be in a flow state.
It is impossible to be in a flow state 100% of the time.
You must be prepared for the fact that there will be parts of your work that you do not enjoy or that are routine.
In any team, despite creating a great environment, there will always be people who may annoy you.
I believe that when searching for your ideal job or activity, you should not idealize the world through rose-colored glasses.
Instead, you should acknowledge what you are willing to accept.
There will be challenges, but you should be ready to face them.
When we can choose projects that align with our values, it becomes much easier.
I agree with you that we cannot change people or circumstances, but we can change our attitude toward them.
We can learn to love the work we do.
We can gradually transition to activities we enjoyed in childhood.
When I talk about this, I mean asking ourselves what we would do if we had all the resources.
What would we do if we were financially secure?
Would we still go to the same office, or would we pursue something else?
This reflection can help us understand what we truly want.
If we cannot reach that point immediately, we should work with what we have today and gradually build a plan for transition.
I agree with you on that.
Agila, it has been a pleasure to have this conversation with you today.
I must admit that I find your time, thoughts, knowledge, and experience incredibly valuable.
You have spent many years preparing to be a business trainer and work with people.
We received a lot of useful information today, even though large companies pay a lot for your time.
This is personally very valuable to me, and I believe it is for others as well.
This may be a manifestation of your mission, perhaps a form of service.
We may not be able to serve 100%, but if we can at least give 90%, that is significant.
Thank you very much for today and for your valuable thoughts.
I found this conversation to be fantastic, especially since I often hear from friends who call me and say, "Let’s just talk."
They feel there is no one to discuss these interesting topics with.
They just want to enjoy the conversation.
As we discussed about the book, the reward is in the conversation itself.
Thank you very much!
I also enjoyed this lively conversation.
I have taken away some of your ideas and thoughts.
I want to share why I came here.
The question you posed about what you would do if you had everything is significant.
My husband often jokes that I would pay people to conduct training and consultations.
That is true; it is the flow state that drives me.
These 30% of my work are what motivate me to endure the 70% of routine tasks.
I am passionate about helping people learn more about flow.
It saddens me when the concept is misunderstood.
Please know that achieving flow is possible, and it depends on you.
You just need to build it through your actions, and the results will be significant.
I am confident of that.
Thank you very much!
Thank you!
Goodbye!
Goodbye!
Goodbye, everyone!